Slightly OT. Bank Details
Geoff Berrow
might be more on topic.
We're all very aware about the email scams that try to get us to
divulge personal details.
So I'm a bit confused that a lot of my clients now want me to do just
that, so they can pay electronically.
What risks are there in giving out bank details? How do scammers
make use of them? Are there any legal implications in divulging this
information? (phew, back on topic...)
--
Geoff Berrow (Put thecat out to email)
It's only Usenet, no one dies.
My opinions, not the committee's, mine.
Simple RFDs www.4theweb.co.uk/rfdmaker
Jon Ribbens
> Sorry about this slightly off topic post but I'm not sure where it
> might be more on topic.
>
> We're all very aware about the email scams that try to get us to
> divulge personal details.
>
> So I'm a bit confused that a lot of my clients now want me to do just
> that, so they can pay electronically.
>
> What risks are there in giving out bank details? How do scammers
> make use of them? Are there any legal implications in divulging this
> information? (phew, back on topic...)
With just account name, account number and sort code, there is not
much anyone can do I believe. I don't see how divulging this
information could be against your bank T&Cs either since they are
printed on cheques, so anyone you were to write a cheque to would
have these details.
There is a slight wrinkle in that these days people can set up direct
debits over the phone with basically no checks whatsoever. Jeremy
Clarkson famously experienced this after publishing his bank details
in The Sun: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/7174760.stm .
However in practical terms I don't think this is a huge thing to worry
about as the payments can only go to Direct Debit-approved companies,
i.e. not some random fraudster's bank account, and the Direct Debit
Guarantee *should* be absolutely bullet-proof in getting you your
money back in a case where you simply never authorised the debit in
the first place.
What you can do if you are worried about this is to have two accounts,
one of which is effectively 'deposit only', the entire contents of
which is transferred to your 'real' account at the end of every day.
So even if someone managed to find a way to suck money out of your
published bank account, there wouldn't be any money in it to steal
anyway.
Roland Perry
Wed, 16 Mar 2011, Geoff Berrow <blth...@ckdog.co.uk> remarked:
>What risks are there in giving out bank details? How do scammers
>make use of them? Are there any legal implications in divulging this
>information? (phew, back on topic...)
The only scam which is plausible if you've published your bank details
is someone signing you up for a Direct Debit, and you ignoring the
notification, and not using the DD guarantee to get your money back.
The scammer would have to be sufficiently well qualified that he could
obtain clearance from his bank to operate such a DD scheme (as the
beneficiary) and he needs to do a runner with the funds at the exactly
the right time.
If your bank prohibited you from telling people your bank details, how
do they expect you to either write cheques, or tell customers who to
pay.
--
Roland Perry
David McNeish
> What risks are there in giving out bank details?
Almost none. Payment by BACS is pretty standard for business invoices
these days. Look on the ones you pay and you'll see plenty of
examples. Account number and sort code are on every cheque, so it's
not as if we're talking about a new variety of confidential
information.
It *is* possible to set up a paperless direct debit using account
number and sort code, but there are various hoops to jump through
before you're allowed to do that.
> How do scammers make use of them?
Generally speaking, they don't. Though they might ask as a first stage
to asking you for more useful information.
> Are there any legal implications in divulging this
> information? (phew, back on topic...)
Can't think of any immediately, other than what happens if you give
out the wrong details, or (as in some recent cases where local
authorities have been caught out) if a fraudster claims to be a
supplier giving "their" new bank details to a customer.
David
David
Stephen Wolstenholme
<blth...@ckdog.co.uk> wrote:
>Sorry about this slightly off topic post but I'm not sure where it
>might be more on topic.
>
>We're all very aware about the email scams that try to get us to
>divulge personal details.
>
>So I'm a bit confused that a lot of my clients now want me to do just
>that, so they can pay electronically.
>
>What risks are there in giving out bank details? How do scammers
>make use of them? Are there any legal implications in divulging this
>information? (phew, back on topic...)
Over the last ten years or so I have released my account details to
hundreds of my customers in many different countries. In my experience
direct payment into a bank account is the second most popular methods
of paying for my software. Most educational and business customers
insists on that method of payment.
Steve
--
Neural network applications, help and support.
Neural Planner Software. www.npsl1.com
EasyNN-plus. Neural Networks plus. www.easynn.com
SwingNN. Forecast with Neural Networks. www.swingnn.com
JustNN. Just Neural Networks. www.justnn.com
Robin
account numbers so HMRC can make repayments. I take that as prima
facie[1] evidence that banks are relaxed about such data being released
given HMRC's reputation for secure data handling :)
[1] pace Lord Woolf - I can't recall what replacement I should use
--
Robin
PM may be sent to rbw0{at}hotmail{dot}com
Martin Bonner
Someone can set up a direct debit from your account (a la Clarkson).
When you spot it, you have to cancel it and get a refund.
> How do scammers make use of them?
I am not aware of any reliable evidence they do. Newspaper reports of
"I gave them my bank details and lost squillions" don't count as
reliable. I think they are reportsof victims minimizing their
foolishness.
> Are there any legal implications in divulging this
> information? (phew, back on topic...)
No.
Geoff Berrow
wrote:
>
>If your bank prohibited you from telling people your bank details, how
>do they expect you to either write cheques, or tell customers who to
>pay.
Good point. I will use it when I explain it to my wife, who gets
paranoid about such things.
Man at B&Q
> might be more on topic.
>
> We're all very aware about the email scams that try to get us to
> divulge personal details.
>
> So I'm a bit confused that a lot of my clients now want me to do just
> that, so they can pay electronically.
>
> What risks are there in giving out bank details?
You give out the neccessary details (*including a copy of your
signature*) every time you write a cheque.
Absolutely nothing to worry about in giving out the details allowing
you to be paid.
MBQ
Flop
> Sorry about this slightly off topic post but I'm not sure where it
> might be more on topic.
>
> We're all very aware about the email scams that try to get us to
> divulge personal details.
>
> So I'm a bit confused that a lot of my clients now want me to do just
> that, so they can pay electronically.
>
> What risks are there in giving out bank details? How do scammers
> make use of them? Are there any legal implications in divulging this
> information? (phew, back on topic...)
The only vulnerability that I can see is if scammers have been able to
access your logon details.
The only information missing from my online banking details is the
account number. This is always referred to as xxxxx1234.
However, if they log on, they can do what they like anyway. And I am not
sufficiently clued up [ or criminal] to see whether the account number
has any additional value.
Flop
John Briggs
> Banks patently consent to taxpayers giving HMRC their sort codes and
> account numbers so HMRC can make repayments. I take that as prima
> facie[1] evidence that banks are relaxed about such data being released
> given HMRC's reputation for secure data handling :)
>
> [1] pace Lord Woolf - I can't recall what replacement I should use
I'm pretty sure you're not allowed to say "pace" either :-)
--
John Briggs
Robin
>> [1] pace Lord Woolf - I can't recall what replacement I should use
>
> I'm pretty sure you're not allowed to say "pace" either :-)
And if you believe that was accidental then I know this bridge in New
York which is for sale and would make an ideal investment for a man of
your talents ;)
Nightjar <"cpb"@
> might be more on topic.
>
> We're all very aware about the email scams that try to get us to
> divulge personal details.
>
> So I'm a bit confused that a lot of my clients now want me to do just
> that, so they can pay electronically.
My bank actively encourages me to do this, by giving me free business
baanking provided I have no more than 20 cheques a month in and no more
than 20 a month out.
> What risks are there in giving out bank details?
I have printed them on my invoices for decades without encountering any
problems.
Colin Bignell
Neil Williams
<"insertmysurnamehere>"@giganews.com> wrote:
> I have printed them on my invoices for decades without encountering
any
> problems.
In Germany it is not unusual for them to be a standard fixture on a
company letterhead.
Neil
--
Neil Williams, Milton Keynes, UK
Mark
<martin...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>On Mar 16, 11:45 am, Geoff Berrow <blthe...@ckdog.co.uk> wrote:
>> What risks are there in giving out bank details?
>
>Someone can set up a direct debit from your account (a la Clarkson).
>When you spot it, you have to cancel it and get a refund.
>
>> How do scammers make use of them?
>
>I am not aware of any reliable evidence they do. Newspaper reports of
>"I gave them my bank details and lost squillions" don't count as
>reliable. I think they are reportsof victims minimizing their
>foolishness.
I would guess that knowing bank details may enable scammers to use a
"social engineering" attack on the person in order to trick them into
revealing more. Also, maybe, if they have obtained the bank details
then they may have been able to get additional information using the
same method.
Fraudsters certainly can and do get hold of credit card details and
use them to make purchases.
FWIW: My cheques do not have my full account number printed on them.
--
(\__/) M.
(='.'=) Due to the amount of spam posted via googlegroups and
(")_(") their inaction to the problem. I am blocking some articles
posted from there. If you wish your postings to be seen by
everyone you will need use a different method of posting.
Man at B&Q
> On Wed, 16 Mar 2011 20:55:09 +0000, "Nightjar <\"cpb\"@"
>
> <"insertmysurnamehere>"@giganews.com> wrote:
> > I have printed them on my invoices for decades without encountering
> any
> > problems.
>
> In Germany it is not unusual for them to be a standard fixture on a
> company letterhead.
Indeed, complete with the very helpful BIC and IBAN in the case of
companies I have dealt with.
MBQ
BartC
news:1m71o654otgisk8lv...@4ax.com...
> Sorry about this slightly off topic post but I'm not sure where it
> might be more on topic.
>
> We're all very aware about the email scams that try to get us to
> divulge personal details.
>
> So I'm a bit confused that a lot of my clients now want me to do just
> that, so they can pay electronically.
>
> What risks are there in giving out bank details? How do scammers
> make use of them? Are there any legal implications in divulging this
> information? (phew, back on topic...)
The fact that you are asking the question means there is some uncertainty.
(I would be just as paranoid.)
Other replies have said there is no risk, but they haven't backed up their
claims by publishing their own account details!
I might try the following:
* Set up a special account solely for incoming funds
* Send out details of this by post (anything on the internet is potentially
at risk of being hacked, for all eternity)
* If possible (I've no idea if banks can do this) allow no withdrawals from
the account, by any means, except by transfer to another, more private
account of yours.
(Although, when I used to send out invoices, I did divulge my account
details (bank sort code, account number, and name) for electronic payments.
But I had only a small number of trusted clients, and this was before the
internet, with all it's multitudinous risks which no one person really seems
to fully understand, was so widespread.
And I remember for a while I did have a special (non-sterling) account for
payments, with limited withdrawal opportunities.)
--
Bartc
Adrian
like they were saying:
> FWIW: My cheques do not have my full account number printed on them.
I've never once seen a cheque that doesn't have.
Martin Bonner
wrote:
>
> FWIW: My cheques do not have my full account number printed on them.
I think you must be mistaken. Otherwise, how does your bank know
which account to take the money from? The account name?
Roland Perry
Thu, 17 Mar 2011, Mark <i...@dontgetlotsofspamanymore.invalid> remarked:
>Fraudsters certainly can and do get hold of credit card details and
>use them to make purchases.
Credit cards are a completely different ball-game, especially cardholder
not present. With all kinds of remedies and losses to the gullible
trader (who is probably not the scammer in most cases).
--
Roland Perry
Mark
I am not mistaken. I don't know how they do it but I guess the rest
of the information is sufficient.
Adrian
like they were saying:
>>> FWIW: My cheques do not have my full account number printed on them.
>>I think you must be mistaken. Otherwise, how does your bank know which
>>account to take the money from? The account name?
> I am not mistaken. I don't know how they do it but I guess the rest of
> the information is sufficient.
You are seriously suggesting that the cheque does not have the three sets
of information - cheque number, sort code, account number - printed along
the bottom edge?
http://www.earth-marketing.com/log/cheque.jpg
To be perfectly honest, Martin, I find that extremely difficult to
believe. They're a requirement for automated clearing.
Adam Funk
> FWIW: My cheques do not have my full account number printed on them.
The British, French (not recently) and American cheques (or checks)
that I've seen always show the account number and the sort code (or
local equivalent). How else does your bank know what to do with them?
Stuart A. Bronstein
> Mark <i...@dontgetlotsofspamanymore.invalid> :
>
>>>> FWIW: My cheques do not have my full account number printed
>>>> on them.
>
>>>I think you must be mistaken. Otherwise, how does your bank
>>>know which account to take the money from? The account name?
>
>> I am not mistaken. I don't know how they do it but I guess the
>> rest of the information is sufficient.
>
> You are seriously suggesting that the cheque does not have the
> three sets of information - cheque number, sort code, account
> number - printed along the bottom edge?
>
> http://www.earth-marketing.com/log/cheque.jpg
>
> To be perfectly honest, Martin, I find that extremely difficult
> to believe. They're a requirement for automated clearing.
But it can be done by hand. I imagine a bank could permit what
Mark is proposing, at a higher cost.
I had a friend who, when sending in cheques to pay the tax man,
would take a hole punch and punch out part of his account number
imprinted on the bottom of the cheque. It would take another
several days to clear.
the Omrud
> On Wed, 16 Mar 2011 14:05:02 +0000, Martin Bonner
> <martin...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> On Mar 16, 11:45 am, Geoff Berrow<blthe...@ckdog.co.uk> wrote:
>>> What risks are there in giving out bank details?
>>
>> Someone can set up a direct debit from your account (a la Clarkson).
>> When you spot it, you have to cancel it and get a refund.
>>
>>> How do scammers make use of them?
>>
>> I am not aware of any reliable evidence they do. Newspaper reports of
>> "I gave them my bank details and lost squillions" don't count as
>> reliable. I think they are reportsof victims minimizing their
>> foolishness.
>
> I would guess that knowing bank details may enable scammers to use a
> "social engineering" attack on the person in order to trick them into
> revealing more. Also, maybe, if they have obtained the bank details
> then they may have been able to get additional information using the
> same method.
>
> Fraudsters certainly can and do get hold of credit card details and
> use them to make purchases.
>
> FWIW: My cheques do not have my full account number printed on them.
How does the bank know which account to apply them to?
--
David
David McNeish
>
> Other replies have said there is no risk, but they haven't backed up their
> claims by publishing their own account details!
So what do you think the risks are? (other than the paperless direct
debit described above)
David McNeish
wrote:
> FWIW: My cheques do not have my full account number printed on them.
Are you quite sure about that? How on earth do they get through the
clearance system?
Ian Jackson
BartC <b...@freeuk.com> wrote:
>Other replies have said there is no risk, but they haven't backed up their
>claims by publishing their own account details!
If you promise to pay me at least two pounds I will post my bank
account details to this newsgroup so that you can do so.
--
Ian Jackson personal email: <ijac...@chiark.greenend.org.uk>
These opinions are my own. http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~ijackson/
PGP2 key 1024R/0x23f5addb, fingerprint 5906F687 BD03ACAD 0D8E602E FCF37657
Ste
That's German efficiency for you.
Neil Williams
wrote:
> I've never once seen a cheque that doesn't have.
Nor I. To the other poster - look at the machine readable text at
the bottom.
Ian Jackson
Mark <y5oj...@sneakemail.com> wrote:
>I am not mistaken. I don't know how they do it but I guess the rest
>of the information is sufficient.
This is very unusual to say the very least. Could you post a
photograph of one of your cheques ?
Adam Funk
> Adrian <tooma...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> You are seriously suggesting that the cheque does not have the
>> three sets of information - cheque number, sort code, account
>> number - printed along the bottom edge?
>>
>> http://www.earth-marketing.com/log/cheque.jpg
>>
>> To be perfectly honest, Martin, I find that extremely difficult
>> to believe. They're a requirement for automated clearing.
>
> But it can be done by hand. I imagine a bank could permit what
> Mark is proposing, at a higher cost.
>
> I had a friend who, when sending in cheques to pay the tax man,
> would take a hole punch and punch out part of his account number
> imprinted on the bottom of the cheque. It would take another
> several days to clear.
I've heard of people stapling cheques to the "do not staple" slips,
but that takes the prize. I'd also be surprised if it weren't illegal
(at least when paying taxes) to mutilate the cheque.
Robin
> In article <ilsref$gt6$1...@news.eternal-september.org>,
> BartC <b...@freeuk.com> wrote:
>> Other replies have said there is no risk, but they haven't backed up
>> their claims by publishing their own account details!
>
> If you promise to pay me at least two pounds I will post my bank
> account details to this newsgroup so that you can do so.
I promise to pay you at least two pounds on 1 January 3999. (I noted
you did not specify a time limit or location but I won't insist on
within 100 parsecs of M33's centre of gravity. You can choose the
location)
Now please post your bank account details to fulfil your side of the
bargain.
BartC
"Man at B&Q" <manat...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:2b2dff52-224a-4a6e...@b8g2000vbi.googlegroups.com...
Cheque details are not usually propagated through the public internet.
And the cheques themselves are printed in very limited editions, distributed
individually to selected recipients.
Given that a cheque does have pretty much all the information needed to
create a counterfeit version (you just need to step the sequence number a
few places) why aren't fake cheques presented more often? If the details
were distributed amongst 100,000 people instead of the few dozen you've
given out cheques too, would the chance of fraud rise?
--
Bartc
David McNeish
> Given that a cheque does have pretty much all the information needed to
> create a counterfeit version (you just need to step the sequence number a
> few places) why aren't fake cheques presented more often?
What can you get these days in exchange for an uncleared and
unguaranteed cheque?
Stuart A. Bronstein
>> If you promise to pay me at least two pounds I will post my
>> bank account details to this newsgroup so that you can do so.
>
> I promise to pay you at least two pounds on 1 January 3999. (I
> noted you did not specify a time limit or location but I won't
> insist on within 100 parsecs of M33's centre of gravity. You
> can choose the location)
Isn't there a rule against perpetuities problem here?
Chris R
> noted you did not specify a time limit or location but I won't
> insist on within 100 parsecs of M33's centre of gravity. You
> can choose the location)
Isn't there a rule against perpetuities problem here?
----------------------------------------
I'm sure we can find an investment bank willing to buy the debt at a a
discount, securitise it as a CDO and sell it to the markets at a large
profit.
Chris R
Robin
Is there? I did briefly wonder but the only provision against
perpetuities I know of in the UK is now the Perpetuities and
Accumulations Act 2009. That only applies to trusts and wills. And IIRC
the CA held in a commercial case a few years back that a software
contract which promised support in perpetuity had no determinable end
date. So, since I sold my soul[1] long ago and expect to live forever,
I'm ready to fulfil my side of the contract :(
[1]despite my not being a lawyer: they don't have a monopoly on it
Man at B&Q
>
>
>
> > On Mar 16, 11:45 am, Geoff Berrow <blthe...@ckdog.co.uk> wrote:
> >> Sorry about this slightly off topic post but I'm not sure where it
> >> might be more on topic.
>
> >> We're all very aware about the email scams that try to get us to
> >> divulge personal details.
>
> >> So I'm a bit confused that a lot of my clients now want me to do just
> >> that, so they can pay electronically.
>
> >> What risks are there in giving out bank details?
>
> > You give out the neccessary details (*including a copy of your
> > signature*) every time you write a cheque.
>
> > Absolutely nothing to worry about in giving out the details allowing
> > you to be paid.
>
> Cheque details are not usually propagated through the public internet.
What relevance is the internet? The account details can be given on
the invoice.
Even if the internet is onvolved, millions of cheques are sent through
the Royal Mail, which I suggest is a lot less secure than the internet
if someone wanted to get hold of the details thereon.
> And the cheques themselves are printed in very limited editions, distributed
> individually to selected recipients.
Sent by post, see above.
> Given that a cheque does have pretty much all the information needed to
> create a counterfeit version (you just need to step the sequence number a
> few places) why aren't fake cheques presented more often? If the details
> were distributed amongst 100,000 people instead of the few dozen you've
> given out cheques too, would the chance of fraud rise?
I'd be far more worried about whether they're going to pay at all, or
whether the supplier I've paid will deliver, etc., etc., ...
The chance of fraud from giving out sufficient details to allow a
client to pay is vanishingly small.
MBQ
Nightjar <"cpb"@
Presumably, you will need the details of the bank he will be using on 1
January 3999, rather than any current data.
Colin Bignell
Steve Firth
I got a £15,000 car with a cheque that hadn't cleared. The seller said I
looked honest.
Ophelia
"Steve Firth" <%steve%@malloc.co.uk> wrote in message
news:1jybf09.bpukiz1cury5iN%%steve%@malloc.co.uk...
That's it! Post a pic if you please:)) I want to know what 'honest' looks
like:))
--
--
Steve Firth
Mark
<ijac...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
>In article <kea4o6t1a9mtqhtl0...@4ax.com>,
>Mark <y5oj...@sneakemail.com> wrote:
>>I am not mistaken. I don't know how they do it but I guess the rest
>>of the information is sufficient.
>
>This is very unusual to say the very least. Could you post a
>photograph of one of your cheques ?
No, sorry.
However I can describe it. Along the bottom of the cheque it first
shows the cheque number.
Next, where I expect the sort code to be, is a six digit number but
only the first two digits match the first two digits of the sort code.
The rest is zeros.
Finally, where I would expect the 8 digit account number, there is an
8 digit number but the first digit is the last digit of the sort code
and the rest is the first 7 digits of my account number. The final
digit of the account number is missing.
However my new chequebook, just arrived, is different and does have
the full account number.
Martin Bonner
wrote:
> On Thu, 17 Mar 2011 16:10:02 +0000, Ian Jackson
>
> >In article <kea4o6t1a9mtqhtl00aj47mokmgfgda...@4ax.com>,
> >Mark <y5ojln...@sneakemail.com> wrote:
> >>I am not mistaken. I don't know how they do it but I guess the rest
> >>of the information is sufficient.
>
> >This is very unusual to say the very least. Could you post a
> >photograph of one of your cheques ?
>
> No, sorry.
>
> However I can describe it. Along the bottom of the cheque it first
> shows the cheque number.
>
> Next, where I expect the sort code to be, is a six digit number but
> only the first two digits match the first two digits of the sort code.
> The rest is zeros.
>
> Finally, where I would expect the 8 digit account number, there is an
> 8 digit number but the first digit is the last digit of the sort code
> and the rest is the first 7 digits of my account number. The final
> digit of the account number is missing.
>
> However my new chequebook, just arrived, is different and does have
> the full account number.
Fascinating! Would you be prepared to say which bank?
Chris R
> shows the cheque number.
>
> Next, where I expect the sort code to be, is a six digit number but
> only the first two digits match the first two digits of the sort code.
> The rest is zeros.
>
> Finally, where I would expect the 8 digit account number, there is an
> 8 digit number but the first digit is the last digit of the sort code
> and the rest is the first 7 digits of my account number. The final
> digit of the account number is missing.
>
> However my new chequebook, just arrived, is different and does have
> the full account number.
Fascinating! Would you be prepared to say which bank?
------------------------------------------
Sounds like the old Alliance and Leicester, who had this eccentric
arrangement. It's going as they merge systems with Santander. All it means
is that they used different account numbers internally to what they
presented to the clearing system - so it says nothing about the security of
account details.
Chris R
Ian Jackson
Mark <y5oj...@sneakemail.com> wrote:
>However I can describe it. Along the bottom of the cheque it first
>shows the cheque number.
>
>Next, where I expect the sort code to be, is a six digit number but
>only the first two digits match the first two digits of the sort code.
>The rest is zeros.
>
>Finally, where I would expect the 8 digit account number, there is an
>8 digit number but the first digit is the last digit of the sort code
>and the rest is the first 7 digits of my account number. The final
>digit of the account number is missing.
How interesting. Looks like your bank tried to do something
unusual ...
>However my new chequebook, just arrived, is different and does have
>the full account number.
... but have now decided it wasn't worthwhile.
Robin
account number of which the first digit becomes the last digit of the
sort code for the purposes of direct debits etc. Then on cheques they
use a different sort code again (ie there are 2 different sort codes
top right and in the MICR strip) - an arrangement I've met with other
banks over the years.
If anyone really wants to explore the variety of sort codes and account
numbers there's more on A&L at
http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/manuals/ntcmanual/misc_bankdetailsguide/alliance_and_leicester_plc.htm
and lot's of the same ilk in the same manual
Robin
Where did that apostrophe come from? More important, and to stay on
topic, can I sue someone on account of the harm I have suffered?
Stuart A. Bronstein
>> and lot's of the same ilk in the same manual
> ^
> Where did that apostrophe come from? More important, and to
> stay on topic, can I sue someone on account of the harm I have
> suffered?
Yes, just what are the penalties for violating the rules of grammar?
Robin
> Yes, just what are the penalties for violating the rules of grammar?
When and where I was taught grammar it was generally sufficient to be
shamed in front of one's peers. (This predated by several decades the
modern approach of always praising, and never marking with red crosses.)
I think most teachers in the UK now proceed on the basis that grammar
was deregulated some time in the 1980s so it is less a matter of rules
and more a matter of personal choice.
Is it true that in extreme cases the penalty on the Western side of the
Atlantic is to become President of the United States of America?
Robin Bignall
<spam...@lexregia.com> wrote:
>"Robin" <s...@sig.sep> wrote:
>
>>> and lot's of the same ilk in the same manual
>> ^
>> Where did that apostrophe come from? More important, and to
>> stay on topic, can I sue someone on account of the harm I have
>> suffered?
>
>Yes, just what are the penalties for violating the rules of grammar?
Being condemned for life to being greengrocer's.
--
Robin Bignall
(BrE)
Herts, England
Stuart A. Bronstein
> Is it true that in extreme cases the penalty on the Western side
> of the Atlantic is to become President of the United States of
> America?
Well, it certainly was once. Unfortunately the wrong people paid the
penalty.