Refused recorded delivery post
Pax100
deliver a recorded delivery item and the recipient refuses to accept it.
I sent a recorded delivery item and, as of yet , tracking shows it as being
processed.
Is the postman able to deliver it anyway ( through the letterbox ) and sign
his signature with an added note something like 'delivered but signature
refused'.
If not and there is no senders address on the letter what happens to it.
There seems to be nothing on the RM website help about this scenario.
Pax
Usenet Nutter
Just because the RM website show this doesn't mean that is the true
situation .RD tracking on the RM website is well known for not being
updated until long after the event ,if at all, so I wouldn't trust
this .
Do you have the reipients 'phone number ? If so have you tried
'phoning to ask them if they accepted the item ?
The whole point of RD is that someone signs for it so it won't get put
through any letter box without unless perhaps the Postman know the
recipient very well and will get them to sign the next time he calls .
They should get carded to go collect it or arrange redelivery
GP Hardy
> The whole point of RD is that someone signs for it so it won't get put
> through any letter box without...
I have personal experience of signed-for items being posted without a
signature. Both correctly addressed and for mistakenly posted neighbours'
mail.
Being honest, but a skinflint, I email the sender to let them know it has
arrived, and that they should reclaim the surcharge for the service as it
was not used.
TTman
"Pax100" <J....@home.nit> wrote in message
news:Y%yVm.39418$3M1....@newsfe18.ams2...
If no-one is 'at home', the postman leaves a note to say the item can be
collected from the local
sorting office within 7 days.
If it is not collected, it is returned to sender ' not collected' written on
it.
If there is no sender address, it is sent to the 'dead letter office' in
Ireland I think
or maybe it's Poole in Dorset...
Jonathan Bryce
When I refuse to accept delivery of TV Licensing's Recorded Delivery
threatograms, the postman writes "refused delivery" on them, then as far as
I can gather they get returned to TV Licensing.
Jonathan Bryce
> Recorded delivery is not trackable until the item is delivered.
> If no-one is 'at home', the postman leaves a note to say the item can be
> collected from the local
> sorting office within 7 days.
> If it is not collected, it is returned to sender ' not collected' written
> on it.
> If there is no sender address, it is sent to the 'dead letter office' in
> Ireland I think
> or maybe it's Poole in Dorset...
It goes to Belfast, which is not in Ireland.
Paul Cummins
jona...@localhost.localdomain (Jonathan Bryce) wrote:
> It goes to Belfast, which is not in Ireland.
Funny map you've got.
--
Paul Cummins - Always a NetHead
Wasting Bandwidth since 1981
Paul Cummins
jona...@localhost.localdomain (Jonathan Bryce) wrote:
> When I refuse to accept delivery of TV Licensing's Recorded Delivery
> threatograms, the postman writes "refused delivery" on them, then
> as far as I can gather they get returned to TV Licensing.
When I get letters addressed to "The Occupier" from the same leeches, I
sent them back "not known at this address" :-)
TTman
"Jonathan Bryce" <jona...@localhost.localdomain> wrote in message
news:hkjr6v$rn1$1...@speranza.aioe.org...
Archie
"Jonathan Bryce" <jona...@localhost.localdomain> wrote in message
news:hkjr6v$rn1$1...@speranza.aioe.org...
> TTman wrote:
/Snip
>
> It goes to Belfast, which is not in Ireland.
Has it moved then?
The last time I went it was.
Percy Picacity
This depends whether you think "Ireland" is a topographical or
political descriptor.
--
Percy Picacity
Mark Goodge
keyboard and typed:
It's both. Although, if you want to be pedantic about it, Belfast is
on Ireland, but not in Ireland.
Mark
--
Please sign my petition: http://petitions.number10.gov.uk/geopostcode/
Read why: http://mark.goodge.co.uk/musings/422/locate-that-postcode/
Jonathan Bryce
>>> Recorded delivery is not trackable until the item is delivered.
>>> If no-one is 'at home', the postman leaves a note to say the item can be
>>> collected from the local
>>> sorting office within 7 days.
>>> If it is not collected, it is returned to sender ' not collected'
>>> written on it.
>>> If there is no sender address, it is sent to the 'dead letter office' in
>>> Ireland I think
>>> or maybe it's Poole in Dorset...
>>
>> It goes to Belfast, which is not in Ireland.
> Where is it then ? Spain ?
The UK. I am aware that there are some people who would prefer it was in
Ireland, but at the moment they are outnumbered by those who don't.
peterwn
The effects / consequences would depend on what is being posted.
If it is a court matter, a judge would want to be convinced that there
was a reasonable attempt at servive before proceeding with a case.
The judge may for example order that substituted service be by way of
a newspaper advertisment. If recorded delivery fails, the judge will
probably expect a summons server to be engaged as the next step. Once
the server is face to face with the person concerned the server may
drop the summons etc at the persons feet if the person refuses to take
it. The server will then file an affidavit indicating how it was
served.
Specific legislation may indicate that service is presumed by sending
an ordinary letter etc.
Mr. Benn
Part of Ireland is in the UK. What is the bit at the top called?
Norman Wells
The Fuse.
Paul Cummins
(Mr. Benn) wrote:
>
> Part of Ireland is in the UK. What is the bit at the top called?
Ulster
tim....
"Paul Cummins" <tramli...@googlemail.com> wrote in message
news:memo.2010020...@none.gstgroup.homeip.net...
> In article <hklov1$jno$6...@news.eternal-september.org>, %%@invalid.invalid
> (Mr. Benn) wrote:
>
>>
>> Part of Ireland is in the UK. What is the bit at the top called?
>
> Ulster
UIster consist of: Antrim, Armagh, Cavan, Donegal, Down, Fermanagh,
Londonderry, Monaghan and Tyron.
Try again
tim
martin
The occupied territories.
Paul Cummins
(tim....) wrote:
> >> Part of Ireland is in the UK. What is the bit at the top called?
> >
> > Ulster
>
> UIster consist of: Antrim, Armagh, Cavan, Donegal, Down, Fermanagh,
> Londonderry, Monaghan and Tyron.
So, as I said, the bit at the top of Ireland is Ulster.
I'm not concerned with political constructs like "Northern Ireland" which
actually have no real meaning anymore.
Anyone on the island can go to any place on the island without a passport.
Can telephone any landline on the island without a surcharge.
Can buy food anywhere on the island without restriction.
Can worship any God on the island without discrimination.
Ireland is a single island with 2 political constructs. And the top of
Ireland is Ulster.
Steve Walker
Hi folks -
This tangential debate is fine, but please can we take care to remain civil.
It's been fine so far, but if people start painting kerbstones or singing
rebel songs then we'll have to reject posts.
Thanks from the moderation team
Mark Goodge
keyboard and typed:
>In article <7t7p87...@mid.individual.net>, tims_n...@yahoo.co.uk
But the two political entities have different currencies, different
governments, different laws, different taxes. So it does matter, quite
a lot, which one you're in.
Dave
So how does this affect a NIP?
Dave
sid
> On Sun, 07 Feb 2010 12:45:23 +0000, Paul Cummins put finger to
> keyboard and typed:
>
>> In article <7t7p87...@mid.individual.net>, tims_n...@yahoo.co.uk
>> (tim....) wrote:
>>
>>>>> Part of Ireland is in the UK. What is the bit at the top called?
>>>> Ulster
>>> UIster consist of: Antrim, Armagh, Cavan, Donegal, Down, Fermanagh,
>>> Londonderry, Monaghan and Tyron.
>> So, as I said, the bit at the top of Ireland is Ulster.
>>
>> I'm not concerned with political constructs like "Northern Ireland" which
>> actually have no real meaning anymore.
>>
>> Anyone on the island can go to any place on the island without a passport.
>>
>>
>> Can telephone any landline on the island without a surcharge.
>>
>> Can buy food anywhere on the island without restriction.
>>
>> Can worship any God on the island without discrimination.
>>
>> Ireland is a single island with 2 political constructs. And the top of
>> Ireland is Ulster.
>
> But the two political entities have different currencies, different
> governments, different laws, different taxes. So it does matter, quite
> a lot, which one you're in.
>
> Mark
I think the most relevant point here is they have different postal
services.
sid
Neil Williams
> This depends whether you think "Ireland" is a topographical or
> political descriptor.
"Ireland" is the island. It contains "The Republic of Ireland", and
"Northern Ireland", part of "The United Kingdom of Great Britain and
Northern Ireland".
(Not dissimilar to the situation with the continent of North America,
really).
So I suppose the OP was being correct in one sense - though I admit I
thought he meant the Republic at first as well :)
Neil
Fergus O'Rourke
news:7t8704...@mid.individual.net...
>
> Hi folks -
>
> This tangential debate is fine, but please can we take care to remain
> civil.
Er, which tangential debate ?
--
FERGUS O'ROURKE
www.twitter.com/ubfid
www.irish-lawyer.com
(Not just law stuff)
Ian Chard
> "Pax100" <J....@home.nit> wrote in message
> news:Y%yVm.39418$3M1....@newsfe18.ams2...
>> Is anyone aware what happens in the instance where a postman arrives to
>> deliver a recorded delivery item and the recipient refuses to accept it.
>>
>> I sent a recorded delivery item and, as of yet , tracking shows it as
>> being
>> processed.
>>
>> Is the postman able to deliver it anyway ( through the letterbox ) and
>> sign
>> his signature with an added note something like 'delivered but signature
>> refused'.
>>
>> If not and there is no senders address on the letter what happens to it.
>>
>> There seems to be nothing on the RM website help about this scenario.
>>
>> Pax
>>
>>
>>
> Recorded delivery is not trackable until the item is delivered.
> If no-one is 'at home', the postman leaves a note to say the item can be
> collected from the local
In rural areas (at least in my experience) the postman will only take
the item away as a last resort; more often he'll leave it in (say) a
greenhouse and put a card through the box to advise its whereabouts.
I've had this happen many times with 'recorded signed for' (was
'recorded delivery'), but the rules seem to be stricter with 'special
delivery', where a signature is always required.
Of course, even if a signature is required, any old signature will do.
- Ian
--
Ian Chard, Senior Unix and Network Gorilla | E: ian....@sers.ox.ac.uk
Systems and Electronic Resources Service | T: 80587 / (01865) 280587
Oxford University Library Services | F: (01865) 242287
Stikkyus Mittius
Cummins) wrote:
>Can worship any God on the island without discrimination.
hehe haha hohooooo.... of course they can.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peace_lines
minxs...@gmail.com
> Is anyone aware what happens in the instance where a postman arrives to
> deliver a recorded delivery item and the recipient refuses to accept it.
>
> I sent a recorded delivery item and, as of yet , tracking shows it as being
> processed.
>
> Is the postman able to deliver it anyway ( through the letterbox ) and sign
> his signature with an added note something like 'delivered but signature
> refused'.
>
> If not and there is no senders address on the letter what happens to it.
>
> There seems to be nothing on the RM website help about this scenario.
>
> Pax
Davey
--
Davey.
Paul Cummins
wrote:
> > I would loved to have found a concrete answer but the topic has
> > wandered into an argument about Ireland....how annoying
>
> The answer might have changed by now anyway. It was 2010, after all.
in the normal course of post.
A first class letter is deemed delivered in the normal course of post
unless service is rebutted.
A Second Class Letter cannot be relied upon for service of a legal
document.
Ironically, courier letters, DX and similar do not have Deemed Delivery,
and delivery must be proven in most cases.
--
Paul Cummins - Always a NetHead
Wasting Bandwidth since 1981
Bitcoin: 1LzAJBqzoaEudhsZ14W7YrdYSmLZ5m1seZ
Chris R
> wrote:
>
> > > I would loved to have found a concrete answer but the topic has
> > > wandered into an argument about Ireland....how annoying
> >
> > The answer might have changed by now anyway. It was 2010, after all.
>
> The legal position is that a Recorded Delivery Letter is deemed delivered
> in the normal course of post.
>
> A first class letter is deemed delivered in the normal course of post
> unless service is rebutted.
>
> A Second Class Letter cannot be relied upon for service of a legal
> document.
>
> Ironically, courier letters, DX and similar do not have Deemed Delivery,
> and delivery must be proven in most cases.
>
such general rules applicable to all legal documents.
--
Chris R
========legalstuff========
I post to be helpful but not claiming any expertise nor intending
anyone to rely on what I say. Nothing I post here will create a
professional relationship or duty of care. I do not provide legal
services to the public. My posts here refer only to English law except
where specified and are subject to the terms (including limitations of
liability) at http://www.clarityincorporatelaw.co.uk/legalstuff.html
======end legalstuff======
Oliver Crawford
Paul Cummins
> I don't know what specific instance you are referring to, but there
> are no such general rules applicable to all legal documents.
of delivery.
Generally, unless stated otherwise (or unless deemed service provisions
apply), then the notice will be served once it has been received rather
than once it has been sent. However, this general principle will very
much depend on the relevant applicable legislation and on whether any
deemed service provisions apply. For example, the case of CA Webber
(Transport) Ltd v Railtrack stated that where a notice is served by a
primary method authorised by section 23 of the Landlord and Tenant Act
1927, it matters not whether the notice was actually received; the date
of service is the date when the server entrusts the notice to the post
for recorded delivery and that provides certainty for those who are
required to serve documents.
Statutory requirements
Law of Property Act 1925 (“1925 Act”) – section 196
This applies to: (a) any notice that is required or authorised to be
served or given by the 1925 Act and (b) any notice required to be served
by any instrument affecting property, unless the contrary intention
appears.
According to section 196, the following rules apply to notices:
They must be in writing.
They must be addressed to “the tenant”, “the mortgagor” or “the persons
interested”.
Notices can be served by:
a. Leaving it at the last known place of abode or business in the UK of
the person to be served. A company’s place of abode is its registered
office address.
b. Sending it by registered post (which includes recorded delivery) at
the place of abode or business providing it is not returned by the postal
operator.
Landlord and Tenant Act 1927 (“1927 Act”) – section 23
This applies to: (a) any notices that is required or authorised to be
served or given by the 1927 Act (b) any notice served under the Landlord
and Tenant Act 1954 (for example, section 25, 26 and 27 notices) and (c)
certain notices served under the Landlord and Tenant (Covenants) Act 1995
(for example a section 17 notice).
According to section 23, the following rules apply to notices:
They must be writing
They may be served by personal service or by being left at the last known
place or abode or posted by registered post (which includes recorded
delivery)
Where notice is to a landlord, the service may be to the landlord or any
agent of the landlord duly authorised
Interpretation Act 1978 (“1978 Act”) – section 7
If neither of the above Acts apply, then the 1978 Act may assist. It
provides that where an Act authorises any document to be served by post
(whether the expression “serve” or the expression “give” or “send” or any
other expression is used) then, unless the contrary intention appears,
the service is deemed to be effected by properly addressing, pre-paying
and posting a letter containing the document and, unless the contrary is
proved, to have been effected at the time at which the letter would be
delivered in the ordinary course of post.
Difference between recorded delivery and registered post
The 1925 Act (and some leases and other contractual documents) refers to
service by registered post. Many contracts and leases also refer to
registered post. Technically, registered post no longer exists. However,
the Recorded Delivery Service Act 1962 effectively replaces references to
registered post with recorded delivery.
The Civil Procedure Rules require documents served by post to be at least
by First Class Post, as does much Criminal Law, such as Section 172, Road
Traffic Act.
Mark Goodge
Cummins) put finger to keyboard and typed:
>In article <nqrp2p$7km$1...@dont-email.me>, da...@example.invalid (Davey)
>wrote:
>
>> > I would loved to have found a concrete answer but the topic has
>> > wandered into an argument about Ireland....how annoying
>>
>> The answer might have changed by now anyway. It was 2010, after all.
>
>The legal position is that a Recorded Delivery Letter is deemed delivered
>in the normal course of post.
>
>A first class letter is deemed delivered in the normal course of post
>unless service is rebutted.
>
>A Second Class Letter cannot be relied upon for service of a legal
>document.
demand) the Interpretation Act 1978 Section 7 applies. This does not
distinguish between classes of post. The difference is that the presumption
of delivery is effective at the time when the post would normally be
delivered, which for first class can be assumed to be within two days of
posting, while for second class it cannot.
In practice, therefore, this can make second class impractical as there may
be other timescales which are dependent on a known presumed date of
service. But if a known date of service is not necessary then there is no
legal reason why second class cannot be used.
For civil cases, the The Civil Procedure Rules apply. These allow for
"first class post, document exchange or other service which provides for
delivery on the next business day", as well as other methods such as fax
and personal service.
>Ironically, courier letters, DX and similar do not have Deemed Delivery,
>and delivery must be proven in most cases.
therefore do not fall within the remit of the Interpretation Act, but not
for civil documents, since they are explicitly allowed by the CPR.
However, in practice, many courier services are, by default, "signed for"
delivery services, and in such cases the lack of a signature is sufficient
to rebut the presumption of delivery. So, as a rule of thumb, it is normal
to work to the principle that evidence of delivery (in the form of a
signature) is necessary to avoid rebuttal. This is, though, a matter of
common usage rather than law. A courier service which did not require a
signature on delivery would have precisely the same deemed service as first
class post.
Calladine-Smith v Saveorder Ltd [2011] EWHC 2501 (Ch) established the
principle that rebuttal of the presumption of delivery is determined on the
balance of probabilities. This requires more than a simple assertion by the
recipient that they did not receive the document, but it does not require
them to provide explicit evidence of non-delivery.
Mark
--
Insert random witticism here
http://www.markgoodge.com
RobertL
> "Jonathan Bryce" <jona...@localhost.localdomain> wrote in message
> > It goes to Belfast, which is not in Ireland.
Robert
Mark Goodge
>
>
>> > It goes to Belfast, which is not in Ireland.
>
>Belfast is in Ireland but not in the Irish republic.
Chris R
> In article <nqsnul$tq1$1...@dont-email.me>, inv...@invalid.munge.co.uk
> (Chris R) wrote:
>
> > I don't know what specific instance you are referring to, but there
> > are no such general rules applicable to all legal documents.
>
> We aren't talking about legal documents, we are talking about presumption
> of delivery.
>
>
You illustrate the point perfectly: there is no general rule for posting of
legal documents, so for any given document or class of documents you need to
look at the relevant law to find any presumptions there may be. Notices
required under an act of Parliament are a tiny subset of documents which my
have legal effects, and there is no general presumption as to service.
Roger Hayter
> On Fri, 9 Sep 2016 06:38:15 -0700 (PDT), RobertL <rober...@yahoo.com>
> put finger to keyboard and typed:
>
> >
> >> "Jonathan Bryce" <jona...@localhost.localdomain> wrote in message
> >
> >> > It goes to Belfast, which is not in Ireland.
> >
> >Belfast is in Ireland but not in the Irish republic.
>
> It is on the island of Ireland, but not in the country of Ireland.
>
> Mark
Ireland.
--
Roger Hayter
Davey
--
Davey.
Robin
> In article <nqsnul$tq1$1...@dont-email.me>, inv...@invalid.munge.co.uk
> (Chris R) wrote:
>
>> I don't know what specific instance you are referring to, but there
>> are no such general rules applicable to all legal documents.
>
> We aren't talking about legal documents, we are talking about presumption
> of delivery.
>
ISTM you have shown that:
a. there are many provisions dealing with (rebuttable) presumptions of
delivery in set circumstances: eg s.7 Interpretation Act; specific
statutes; practice directions; but
b. that just goes to underline that there is no general rule or set of
rules which covers everything.
--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid
Mark Goodge
>On Fri, 9 Sep 2016 16:00:06 +0100
>ro...@hayter.org (Roger Hayter) wrote:
>
>> Mark Goodge <use...@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>> > On Fri, 9 Sep 2016 06:38:15 -0700 (PDT), RobertL
>> > <rober...@yahoo.com> put finger to keyboard and typed:
>> >
>> > >
>> > >> "Jonathan Bryce" <jona...@localhost.localdomain> wrote in
>> > >> message
>> > >
>> > >> > It goes to Belfast, which is not in Ireland.
>> > >
>> > >Belfast is in Ireland but not in the Irish republic.
>> >
>> > It is on the island of Ireland, but not in the country of Ireland.
>> >
>> > Mark
>>
>> It is in the country of Ireland but not in the independent state of
>> Ireland.
>>
>
>I understood Mark's explanation, but not yours.
meanings according to context. I was using it in the sense of "independent
sovereign state", which is the most obvious usage in the context in which I
was using it and also the primary meaning in most dictionaries. But the
word can also mean many other things, including:
* rural as opposed to urban ("He lives in a house, a very big house in the
country")
* a previously independent sovereign state ("Scotland is one of the
countries of the UK")
* a form of music ("We do both types, country *and* western")
* a major province of a sovereign state ("Wales is one of the countries in
the UK")
* shorthand for the population of a sovereign state ("The country won't
stand for Jeremy Corbyn as Prime Minister")
* a particular region defined by a common charactistic rather than specific
boundaries ("Stratford-upon-Avon is the capital of Shakespeare country")
I leave it up to you to decide which, if any, of these secondary meanings
was intended by the previous poster.