Your Breeches' Button, Beethoven and his Nephew Karl
D Monte
Beethoven and his Nephew Karl
Copyright © Rictor Norton. All rights reserved. Reproduction for sale
or profit prohibited. This essay may not be archived, republished or
redistributed without the permission of the author.
article taken from: http://www.infopt.demon.co.uk/beethove.htm
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The great composer Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827) never married and
never seems to have had an intimate relationship with a woman. His
personality is a very complex one, but the popular mythology that
requires this romantic musician to have had a string of passionate
heterosexual relationships has no basis in reality. In fact his "grand
passions" were always women of a higher social position than he and
already attached to someone else as if he deliberately addressed
those he knew were out of his reach. In 1801 he wrote about a charming
girl who could make him happy but he immediately qualified this by
saying she was not of his class, and anyway he was very busy with his
music! His relationships with Josephine Deym, Magdalena Willmann,
Giulietta Gicciardi, and Therese Malfattti were clearly platonic. The
famous letter to his Immortal Beloved, which was written in two
instalments over two days in 1812, essentially indicates his
unwillingness to give total commitment, and he finally renounces the
opportunity for union forever; in any case the letter was never sent,
for it was really just written to resolve his own mind.
On the other hand, Beethoven had many close friendships with men of
his own age and he enjoyed the company of younger men, such as
Ferdinand Ries early in his career and Karl Holz at the end, as well
as Stephan von Breuning, Wegeler, Gleichenstein, the attractive young
pianist Karl Friedrich Amenda, the handsome Baron de Trémont and
others. Karl Maria von Weber, also a good-looking young man, reported:
He received me with an affection which was touching; he embraced me
most heartily at least six or seven times and finally exclaimed
enthusiastically: "Indeed, you're a devil of a fellow! a good
fellow!" We spent the afernoon very merrily and contentedly. This
rough, repellent man actully paid court to me, served me at table as
if I had been his lady.
Beethoven almost certainly had unconscious homosexual feelings for his
beloved brother Caspar Carl, whom he felt had been stolen from him by
his marriage to Johanna Reiss in 1806. When Carl died in 1815
Beethoven adopted his son Karl (born in 1806), and engaged in a bitter
feud with Johanna over possession of the boy.
His nephew Karl became the recipient for all the love he had felt both
for his brother and for his Immortal Beloved. Beethoven was declared
Karl's joint guardian in 1816, and from that date his relationship
with Karl became his sole emotional outlet, effectively a marriage,
and no woman henceforward occupied any significant role in his life.
Karl was withdrawn from his tutor to live with his uncle from 1818,
when the composer began his Ninth Symphony. Beethoven used a German
phrase, acknowledging that he "clung to him like button to trousers"
a telling choice of metaphor. But Karl continued to love his mother
despite his uncle's loathing of her, and sometimes ran away to her.
After a series of court battles, Beethoven finally obtained sole
guardianship in 1820. Beethoven's legal adviser told him to stop
taking Karl to eat in taverns (they always ate out) because it was
causing "gossip and false interpretations" and might harm his case.
While studying at university and the polytechnic in Vienna, Karl
visited his uncle on weekends and holidays, and acted as his secretary
and bookkeeper and housekeeper. Beethoven was jealously possessive,
even asking friends to spy on Karl's activities in town, and they had
bitter quarrels. Beethoven moved to Baden in 1825 to attempt a cure
for his gout and other complaints, and Karl had to organize his Vienna
affairs and run constant errands for him, as well as staying with him
frequently; about 40 letters survive from this traumatic period.
Beethoven constantly alternated between spoiling and punishing the
lad, now 19 years old and good-looking, who was made to feel guilty
for wanting some independence. One day Beethoven would berate him for
wasting money on the theatre, "my heart has suffered too much from
your deceitful behaviour to me," and almost the next day he would
write "Dear Son, Dear Boy ... All good wishes, little rascal."
In October 1825 Karl ran away to his mother, after being accused of
selfishness by his uncle, but Beethoven tried to patch up their
relationship: "Stop, no further. Only come to my arms, you won't hear
a single hard word. ... We will lovingly discuss what has to be
considered and what must be done for the future. On my word of honour
you will hear no reproaches." But it was no good: in July 1826 Karl
bought a pair of pistols and tried to kill himself, saying he was
"weary of imprisonment." The bullet lodged in his head, and he was
taken to his mother's home, and subsequently spent a month in
hospital, during which time the composer's Ninth Symphony was
published. When the police asked Karl why he had attempted suicide, he
said "Because my uncle harrassed me so" (weil mein Onkel mich so
sekkiert hat).
After Karl's recovery, he returned to live quietly with his uncle for
four months, but their love had died. Beethoven was devastated by the
incident, which shattered the father/son illusion. In December 1826
Karl nursed Beethoven with loving care, but was not even allowed to go
out of doors for some relaxation or go to his room to be alone for a
little while. In one conversation he says to his uncle "I beg you
again not to torment me as you do. ... you must remember that other
people are human too." Karl was allowed to enter military service in
January 1827. After this obvious rejection of his love, Beethoven's
physical stamina collapsed almost overnight and he died two months
later. During the last few months of Beethoven's life Karls's place
was taken by a vivacious 13-year-old boy, Gerhard, son of Beethoven's
friend Stephan von Breuning. They grew so close during this short
period that Beethoven even called him "trouser-button," reverting to
his earlier metaphor about his relationship with Karl. Karl was named
Beethoven's sole heir. Karl went on to have a successful military
career, got married in 1832 and had five children; he was a good
pianist, and settled in Vienna as a man of leisure; he died in 1858.
Beethoven's first and official biographer Anton Schindler destroyed
240 of the 400 Conversation Books (communication via notes written on
slates or paper which became necessary due to Beethoven's deafness)
because of the material they contained about Karl, and advocated that
their letters (which were not in his possession) be destroyed. Those
notes that do survive, document a tormented relationship, and
Beethoven's jealousy over Karl's friendships with other men. For
example, Karl wrote to Beehoven in August 1824:
I see very well that you are incensed, I even have to take it as
natural, unfortunately! — And yet I still hope that in a calmer
hour you will think otherwise and will not entirely give me up. Do not
rob me of this hope, and do not cast me down completely; I am
sufficiently so as it is. Allow but a little time for your full
conviction and I know it will be different again. — I have no
girl friends.
Beethoven even disliked the occasional boyfriend that Karl brought to
his uncle's home to help allay his own loneliness: Beethoven: "I find
him crude and common." Karl: "For my part, I shall not cease to love
him, as I could love my brother if I had one. .. . I never forced him
on you. ... You do not need to quarrel. If you stop talking about it
the subject will be closed." And the letters are full of moral
blackmail: Beethoven to Karl:
I have no doctor, not even a sympathetic soul at hand. If you can
manage to come on Sundays, do come. But I don't want to interfere with
your plans in any way, ... Oh, where have I not been wounded, nay
more, cut to the heart?! ... if it is at all possible for you to do
so, well then, in my solitude I shall look forward to having a human
heart beside me ... With all my heart I embrace you.
Beethoven's most devoted biographer, Alexander Thayer, kept getting
intolerable all-day headaches whenever he tried to deal with
Beethoven's relationship with Karl, and Thayer kept putting off volume
IV of his biography which would have contained it, until his death, so
the nature of the relationship was never revealed.
Letters from Ludwig van Beethoven to Karl van Beethoven
[Vienna
c. September 18, 1816]
My Dear K,
According to the orders of v. Smetana, you must take some baths before
the operation [for hernia]. Today the weather is favourable, and it is
exactly the right time. I shall be waiting for you at the Stubenthor
[entrance to the baths].
Of course you will first ask Herr v[on] G[iannatasio]'s permission.
Put on drawers [a pair of underpants] or take them with you so that
you can put them on when you come out of the bath, in case the weather
should again become cooler. If the tailor has not yet been to you,
when he comes let him also take your measure for linen drawers. You
need them. If Frau v. G. knows where he lives, my servant can tell him
to go to you.
My son farewell; I am, and indeed through you,
Your breeches button,
L. v. Beethoven
Baden
August 16, 1823
My dear Boy,
I did not wish to say anything to you until I felt better, which is
not yet quite the case. I came here with a cough and a cold, both bad
for me, as the normal state, anyhow, is catarrhal; and I am afraid
this will soon cut the thread of my life, or worse still, will gnaw
continually at it. Also my ruined bowels must be restored by medicine
and diet, and for this, one has to thank faithful servants. You can
imagine how I am roaming about, for only today I really (not really,
but involuntarily) commenced my service of the Muses. I have to do it,
but it shall not be perceived, for the place tempts one, me at least,
to the enjoyment of beautiful Nature, but nous sommes trop pauvres et
il faut écrire ou de n'avoir pas de quoi. Now see that everything is
ready for your exam., and, especially, be modest, so that you may show
yourself higher and better than people suppose. Send your washing
straight here. Your grey trousers can at any rate be worn at home
[i.e. to save your good clothes for public show], for, my dear son,
you are a very dear one to me! ...
If one could only write as quickly as one thinks and feels, I could
tell you many things. For today I only wish that a certain Karl may
prove himself full worthy of my love and of my great care for him, and
also know how to value it. Although I, as you know, am not exacting,
still there are so many ways in which one can show to noble- minded
and better people, that it is recognised and felt by them.
Hearty embrace from
Your truly faithful father.
Baden
August 23, 1823
Little rascal! ...
Best little rascal! ...
Dear child, I receive today your yesterday's letter. You are speaking
about 31 fl. [florins] As I have also sent the 6 fl. you wanted, the
lot of tittle-tattle among the leaves must have prevented you from
seeing them. ... If your clean linen is not very urgent, leave it
until I come on the 29th, for if you send it here first, it will be
scarcely possible for you to have it back on the 28th, the day of the
examination. In case of need give the servant a pair of trousers,
which can easily be washed in the neighbourhood. ...
[Baden
Wednesday, May 18, 1825]
Dear Son!
The old woman [housekeeper etc.] has already come, so do not trouble,
study diligently and rise early in the morning, when you might try to
do many things for me which have to be done. It is becoming to a youth
nearly 19 years old to combine his duties to his benefactors and
supporters with those of his education and progress, as I truly did to
my parents.
In haste, your true
Father
Baden
May 22, [1825]
Although I have been informed by somebody that again there have been
secret meetings between you and your mother, up till now I have only
suspected it — have I once more to suffer the most abominable
ingratitude?! No, if the tie between us is to be broken, let it be so,
but you will be hated by all impartial people who hear about it. The
statements of my Herr Bruder [Johann] and those of Dr Reissig, as he
says, and yours yesterday concerning Dr Sonleitner who necessarily
must feel offended with me, as the law court decided exactly the
opposite of what he demanded, do you think that I would risk once more
to be mixed up in those vulgarities? no, never more if the pactum is
irksome to you, then, let it be so, I leave you to divine providence;
I have done my part, and can appear fearless before the highest of all
judges. Do not be afraid to come to me tomorrow, I still only suspect.
God grant that nothing of it is true, for in truth there would be no
limit to your unhappiness, lightly as this scamp of a brother of mine
and perhaps your mother, may think of your gossiping with the old
woman. I shall expect you with certainty.
Baden
June 9, 1825
I wish at least that you could come here on Sundays, but I do not
receive an answer from you. God be with you and with me. ... I have
written to Herr von Reissig to ask you to come here on Sundays. The
coach starts from his house at 6 o'clock, that is from the Kugel auf
der Wieden. You have therefore only to work and study a little in
advance so as not to lose time. I am sorry to give you this trouble.
In the afternoon you can start again from here by the same coach to
Vienna. Everything is paid for, you can shave here, and have a necktie
and shirt, so that you may arrive here in time.
Farewell, even if I am grumbling at you, I do not do so without cause.
I should not like to have spent so much merely to have provided to the
world an ordinary man. I hope to see you for certain.
If, however, the intrigues have achieved their purpose, declare it
openly (and naturally), and you always will find in me a man who
remains the same for all that is good. The house was advertised in
yesterday's newspaper, so if you were not able to do anything in this
matter [i.e. finding an apartment for them to live together in
Vienna], you might have got somebody else to write about it, if you
perhaps were unwell, I should be glad not to be obliged to act
otherwise. You know how I am situated here in this cold weather; the
constantly being alone weakens me only the more, for really my
weakness seems almost like a swooning away. Oh do not grieve me any
more, the Scythe Man will not, as it is, fail to come soon.
B.
[Baden
July 1825]
My dear Son,
Come soon!
Come soon!
Come soon!
... I press my loving seal on your loving trustfulness and affection
towards me. If you neglect anything, stay there.
As ever,
Your affectionate solicitous,
Father
[Baden]
August 2, 1825
Dear Son
... Write me a few words and send them here tomorrow. Take care of
yourself, do not forget the baths — only spend your money
properly, be my dear son. What an unheard of dissonance it would be if
you were false to me, as some people say is the case.
God be with you,
Your faithful Father.
[Baden]
October 5, 1825
My dear beloved Son
I have just received your letter. Already most anxious, I had already
determined to hasten today to Vienna. Thank God, it is not necessary.
Only follow me, and love, like happiness of soul united with human
happiness, must be with us; then you will unite inward with your
outward happiness, although it would be better to give the foremost
place to the former "il fait trop Froid" I hope to see you on
Saturday, write whether you come early or in the evening, when I will
hasten to meet you. I embrace and kiss a thousand times not my lost,
but new-born son. I wrote to Schlemmer [where Karl lodged, near the
Karlskirche], do not take it amiss, I am still too moved.
My love and my solicitude for you whom I have found again will always
show you that I am your affectionate father.
[Vienna
Summer, 1826]
Since you at least have followed my advice, all is forgiven and
forgotten, more about it with you by word of mouth. Today quite calm.
Do not think that any other thought weighs with me than that of your
welfare, and judge my actions from this — do not take a step
which may bring you into trouble and may shorten my life. I only got
to sleep about 3 o'clock, for I was coughing the whole night. I
embrace you heartily, and am sure that you will soon misunderstand me
no longer, thus do I also judge your behaviour of yesterday. I expect
you without fail today at one o'clock, give me no more trouble and
anxiety, meanwhile farewell.
Your true and faithful father.
[PS] We are alone, I would not let H[olz] come on that account, all
the more as I wish that nothing may be said about yesterday, come
then; let my poor heart bleed no longer.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Selections are from Beethoven's Letters, trans. J.S. Shedlock, 2 vols,
London: J.M. Dent; New York: E.P. Dutton, 1909. Biographical sources:
The Beethoven Compendium, ed. Barry Cooper. London: Thames and Hudson,
1991; E. and R. Sterba, Beethoven and his Nephew, New York, 1954; The
Letters of Beethoven, ed. Emily Anderson, 3 vols, London: Macmillan,
1961.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Copyright © 1998 Rictor Norton. All rights reserved.
CITATION: If you cite this Web page, please use the following form of
citation:
Rictor Norton, "Your Breeches' Button: Beethoven and his Nephew Karl",
The Great Queens of History, updated 9 Jan. 2000
<http://www.infopt.demon.co.uk/beethove.htm>.
de_profundis
wrote, in a moment of madness:
(Cross posting removed)
>Your Breeches' Button
>Beethoven and his Nephew Karl
(snipped)
<shorter version>
Beethoven was gay
</shorter version>
--
=======================
de_pro...@priest.com
=======================
paul
>ialmon...@yahoo.com (D Monte) wrote, in a moment of madness:
>
>(Cross posting removed)
>
>>Your Breeches' Button
>>Beethoven and his Nephew Karl
>
>(snipped)
>
><shorter version>
even shorter version: http://www.infopt.demon.co.uk/beethove.htm
Lifted from a rather interesting site:-
http://www.infopt.demon.co.uk/gayhist.htm#queens
>Beethoven was gay
>
></shorter version>
--
paul (C) © 2001 is mine
Kapitano
news:c0c6feba.01081...@posting.google.com...
> Beethoven almost certainly had unconscious homosexual feelings for his
> beloved brother Caspar Carl,
After three paragraphs of circumstantian evidence that Beethoven
was gay, we get that assertion. Three paragraphs of straining to
find evidence for the composer's homosexuality, before the author
gives up all pretence at rigour, and makes a bald assertion without
evidence.
The remainder of the essay deals with Beethoven's relationship
with his nephew Karl. There's some good evidence of an academic
conspiracy of silence concerning both their probable homosexualities,
but the author does himself no favours with his sensationalism.
--
Kapitano
Better than a poke in the eye with a sharp stick
Steven Capsuto
Kapitano wrote:
> "D Monte" <ialmon...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:c0c6feba.01081...@posting.google.com...
> > Beethoven almost certainly had unconscious homosexual feelings for his
> > beloved brother Caspar Carl,
>
> After three paragraphs of circumstantian evidence that Beethoven
> was gay, we get that assertion. Three paragraphs of straining to
> find evidence for the composer's homosexuality, before the author
> gives up all pretence at rigour, and makes a bald assertion without
> evidence.
Not even circumstantial evidence: just flat-out fuzzy-headedness (what
evidence could there possibly be that Beethoven "apparently never had" a
heterosexual relationship? was there a European Registry of Extramarital
Affairs in his day, from which he was conspicuously absent?), made fuzzier
by such weasel phrases as "it almost seems that". Historianship requires
more rigorous standards than these.
-- Steven Capsuto, Philadelphia, PA, USA
http://www.stevecap.com
Christopher Mahon
de_pro...@priest.com wrote:
> On Tue, 14 Aug 2001 16:39:01 GMT, ialmon...@yahoo.com (D Monte)
> wrote, in a moment of madness:
>
> (Cross posting removed)
>
> >Your Breeches' Button
> >Beethoven and his Nephew Karl
>
> (snipped)
>
> <shorter version>
>
> Beethoven was gay
>
> </shorter version>
I was about to say...and none of this neccesarily means that Beethoven
was gay. And what does it matter anyway, I won't enjoy his music any
less, or any more for that matter.
--
>From the Powerbook G3 of Christopher Mahon.
Scott James Remnant
> <shorter version>
>
> Beethoven was gay
>
> </shorter version>
>
Bollocks!
Ever heard of Beethoven's "Souper Trouper" ?
How about Beethoven's "Dancing Queen" ?
Scott
--
Scott James Remnant Have you ever, ever felt like this? Had strange
http://netsplit.com/ things happen? Are you going round the twist?
Gregoire Kretz
>From the Powerbook G3 of Christopher Mahon.
Show off.
:)
Greg
--
...On danse le madison
Gregoire Kretz
> de_profundis <de_pro...@priest.com> wrote:
>
> > <shorter version>
> >
> > Beethoven was gay
> >
> > </shorter version>
> >
> Bollocks!
You called?
> Ever heard of Beethoven's "Souper Trouper" ?
ITYM "Supper Trapper".
Gavin Wheeler
Kretz) wrote:
>Christopher Mahon <gro...@lineone.net> wrote:
>
>>From the Powerbook G3 of Christopher Mahon.
>
>Show off.
Jealous.
Patrick James
(in message <3B7A8E33...@dca.net>):
> [crossposting reduced]
Good!
> Not even circumstantial evidence: just flat-out fuzzy-headedness (what
> evidence could there possibly be that Beethoven "apparently never had" a
> heterosexual relationship? was there a European Registry of Extramarital
> Affairs in his day, from which he was conspicuously absent?), made fuzzier
> by such weasel phrases as "it almost seems that". Historianship requires
> more rigorous standards than these.
Yes, I don't think gay people need more historic artistic geniuses anyway.
--
Patrick
"All my life I've given you nothing but still you ask for more"
- Gilbert & George
Gregoire Kretz
Lyn David Thomas
<gro...@lineone.net> wrote:
>> <shorter version>
>>
>> Beethoven was gay
>>
>> </shorter version>
>
>I was about to say...and none of this neccesarily means that Beethoven
>was gay. And what does it matter anyway, I won't enjoy his music any
>less, or any more for that matter.
Likewise, though I also heard rumours (thirty years ago) that he was
gay or bi, so such thoughts are hardly new.
--
\/ Lyn David Thomas
Webpages start at:
http://www.cibwr.freeserve.co.uk
Gregoire Kretz
> On Sat, 18 Aug 2001 18:08:00 GMT, Christopher Mahon
> <gro...@lineone.net> wrote:
>
> >> <shorter version>
> >>
> >> Beethoven was gay
> >>
> >> </shorter version>
> >
> >I was about to say...and none of this neccesarily means that Beethoven
> >was gay. And what does it matter anyway, I won't enjoy his music any
> >less, or any more for that matter.
>
> Likewise, though I also heard rumours (thirty years ago) that he was
> gay or bi, so such thoughts are hardly new.
I'm not so sure those words did mean anything in the days he was alive.
I'm certainly not an erudite on the subject, but I thought a 'strict'
definition of gay/straight/bi was only introduced recently?
Greg
--
Going somewhere?
Seldo Voss
Kretz) wrote:
>I'm not so sure those words did mean anything in the days he was alive.
>I'm certainly not an erudite on the subject, but I thought a 'strict'
>definition of gay/straight/bi was only introduced recently?
I was quite interested to read about historical attitudes to
homosexual relationships in this country. Apparently, scattered in
various places around the country, are the marriage certificates /
joint graves of various same-sex couples, apparently married in
Catholic churches without any kind of fuss.
Which raises the question, where did the Church's homophobic attitude
come from, then? I kind of assumed it had always been there...
Seldo.
--
Seldo - www.seldo.com
uk...@seldo.com
----
"Computers in the future may weigh no more than 1.5 tons" -- Popular Mechanics, 1949.
Lyn David Thomas
Kretz) wrote:
While homosexual and bisexual behaviour has always existed there are
those that maintain that a homosexual or bisexual identity or culture
are a modern thing. How modern depends on who you talk to. And then
there are people like Gore Vidal who maintain that people are not
homosexual or heterosexual, people are just sexual and that there are
homosexual or heterosexual acts only.
JohnM
Thomas <l...@cibwr.freeserve.co.uk> writes
>While homosexual and bisexual behaviour has always existed there are
>those that maintain that a homosexual or bisexual identity or culture
>are a modern thing. How modern depends on who you talk to.
Gay subculture is really an urban phenomenon when large numbers of gay
men (gay women have a different history) got together. I think it has
now been established beyond historical doubt - by the said Rictor Norton
- that a gay culture existed as such in London and Paris and other big
cities by the 18th century when urbanisation (due to industrialisation)
took off. It is then gay men realized there were other gay men as well
- previously any contact was accidental and localised within the
confines of a village, a ship, a convent or an estate. Personally I
would like to see more research for earlier signs of such 'culture' in
ports where there was the other concentration of single males during the
earlier period of mercantilism.
--
JohnM More Football Delights #13
"They've conceded a lot of goals but the other problem is that
they've let a lot in" GARY LINEKER
Web site http://www.scroll.demon.co.uk/spaver.htm
Brazil 500 travelogue http://www.scroll.demon.co.uk/brazil/index.htm
graham
<jo...@scroll.demon.co.uk> announced that:
>Gay subculture is really an urban phenomenon when large numbers of gay
>men (gay women have a different history) got together. I think it has
>now been established beyond historical doubt - by the said Rictor Norton
>- that a gay culture existed as such in London and Paris and other big
>cities by the 18th century when urbanisation (due to industrialisation)
>took off. It is then gay men realized there were other gay men as well
>- previously any contact was accidental and localised within the
>confines of a village, a ship, a convent or an estate. Personally I
>would like to see more research for earlier signs of such 'culture' in
>ports where there was the other concentration of single males during the
>earlier period of mercantilism.
Peter Ackroyd's London makes mention of several people arrested in the
1300s for keeping disorderly houses and "harbouring prostitutes and
sodomites". He concludes that medieval London had a thriving gay
community that was "well known and ubiquitous". A skim through the
extensive bibliography doesn't reveal any obvious sources for this
conclusion, not does he mention any other evidence. Possibly one for
investigation.
--
graham
If you're happy and you know it,
Clap your hands.
http://www.vendetta.demon.co.uk
JohnM
<ab...@vendetta.demon.co.uk> writes
>Peter Ackroyd's London makes mention of several people arrested in the
>1300s for keeping disorderly houses and "harbouring prostitutes and
>sodomites". He concludes that medieval London had a thriving gay
>community that was "well known and ubiquitous". A skim through the
>extensive bibliography doesn't reveal any obvious sources for this
>conclusion, not does he mention any other evidence. Possibly one for
>investigation.
Well we have the annals of the Inquisition and we know that
people - in Brazil which is my specialised subject - were condemned
for prostitution in the 16th century. The first recorded
transvestite of the New World was Francisco Manicongo and
the first rent boy was Jeronimo Parada, both tried by the
Inquisition when it reached Bahia in 1591. Prostitution is
the oldest profession, is it not ? but a homosexual _subculture_
as such is something altogether different.
graham
<jo...@scroll.demon.co.uk> announced that:
>In article <ebmqotgsa1s0bssvm...@4ax.com>, graham
><ab...@vendetta.demon.co.uk> writes
>
>>Peter Ackroyd's London makes mention of several people arrested in the
>>1300s for keeping disorderly houses and "harbouring prostitutes and
>>sodomites". He concludes that medieval London had a thriving gay
>>community that was "well known and ubiquitous". A skim through the
>>extensive bibliography doesn't reveal any obvious sources for this
>>conclusion, not does he mention any other evidence. Possibly one for
>>investigation.
>
>Well we have the annals of the Inquisition and we know that
>people - in Brazil which is my specialised subject - were condemned
>for prostitution in the 16th century. The first recorded
>transvestite of the New World was Francisco Manicongo and
>the first rent boy was Jeronimo Parada, both tried by the
>Inquisition when it reached Bahia in 1591. Prostitution is
>the oldest profession, is it not ? but a homosexual _subculture_
>as such is something altogether different.
Indeed, hence my querying of Ackroyd's apparent conclusion that
evidence of prostitution indicates a gay community. It may be worth
looking into the history of the molly houses, including how and where
they originated. Those of you who went to see Mother Clap - any
ideas?
St Mym
No one would get any ideas from that garbage.
The book it takes it's name from (Mother Clap's Molly House by Rictor
Norton - interesting and excellently researched but goes badly off the
readability rails in its latter chapters IMO) suggests a connection with
the rapid growth in London after the Great Fire and Plague.
His sourcebook at http://www.infopt.demon.co.uk/eighteen.htm is absolutely
fascinating stuff.
--
mym
The meaning of life is that it stops - Kafka
Steven Capsuto
> Well we have the annals of the Inquisition and we know that
> people - in Brazil which is my specialised subject - were condemned
> for prostitution in the 16th century. The first recorded
> transvestite of the New World was Francisco Manicongo and
> the first rent boy was Jeronimo Parada, both tried by the
> Inquisition when it reached Bahia in 1591. Prostitution is
> the oldest profession, is it not ? but a homosexual _subculture_
> as such is something altogether different.
Clearly, such a subculture was in place by the 1890s in many European and
American cities. See Xavier Mayne's book "The Intersexes" (written in the
1890s, published privately in 1908, and reprinted by Arno Press in -- if
memory serves -- the mid 1970s). The pseudonymous British author alludes to
homosexual restaurants, taverns, turkish baths, and other similar "resorts" in
between his rambling, completely undocumented anecdotes and "case studies".
The main body of the text is about male homosexuality in Europe. The brief
appendix deals with the U.S., and lists cities Mayne considered the country's
"homosexual capitals".
A more detailed description of one city's 19th-century gay subculture can be
found in the early portions of George Chauncey's remarkable book "Gay New
York".
Steven Capsuto
that homosexuality as a sexual orientation didn't exist is ludicrous. There
is plenty of evidence in diaries from centuries long past that there were
people who felt guiltstricken over their exclusively "unnatural" same-sex
urges. Whether they thought these were caused by demons is immaterial: the
orientation per se existed.
Also, if early police, court, and medical accounts are to be believed, there
were plenty of unrepentant homosexuals who did not want to be "reformed" or
"cured," and who knew other such people. Not a gay community as we would
understand it, but certainly something that people should be more aware of.
Matthew Malthouse
}
} Indeed, hence my querying of Ackroyd's apparent conclusion that
} evidence of prostitution indicates a gay community. It may be worth
} looking into the history of the molly houses, including how and where
} they originated. Those of you who went to see Mother Clap - any
} ideas?
The already mentioned _Mother Clap's Molly House : The Gay Subculture in
England 1700-1830_, Rictor Norton, Paperback - 302 pages (15 December,
1999) GMP Publishers; ISBN: 0854491880
Also:
Ariès, Phillipe and Béjin (eds)
_Western Sexuality: Practice and Precepts in Past and Present Times_
Trans A Forster, Blackwell, Oxford, 1985.
Bullough, Vern L,
_Sexual Varience in Society and History_,
University of Chicago Press, 1976.
_Which Homosexuality, essays from the international scientific conference
on lesbian and gay studies_,
GMP, London and Uitgeverij An Dkker/Schorer, Amsterdam, 1989.
Foucault, Michel,
_The History of Sexuality_
(3 vols), Trans R. Hurley, Allen Lane, London, 1979-99)
Fout, John C (ed),
_Forbidden History_,
University of Chicago Press, 1992.
Parkin, Tim G,
_Demography in Roman Society_,
Johns Hopkins University Press 1992.
Rowse, A L
_Homosexuals in History: A Study of Ambivalence in Society_,
Weidenfeld & Nicolson, London, 1997.
[I'm cheating as that's a list I've posted before.]
--
Il est important d'être un homme ou une femme en colère; le jour où nous
quitte la colère, ou le desire, c'est cuit. - Barbera
Somewhat new, vaguely improved, now with added 2001:
http://www.calmeilles.co.uk/
JohnM
<ab...@vendetta.demon.co.uk> writes
>Indeed, hence my querying of Ackroyd's apparent conclusion that
>evidence of prostitution indicates a gay community.
Oh I seeeeeeeeee :-)
>It may be worth
>looking into the history of the molly houses, including how and where
>they originated. Those of you who went to see Mother Clap - any
>ideas?
>
The title of the play is straight out of a Rictor Norton's book
which explains in detail their history. It is a good book
although rather haphazardly written and passages from it are
on Norton's web site where the original Beethoven post came
from.
JohnM
<stev...@dca.net> writes
>Clearly, such a subculture was in place by the 1890s in many European and
>American cities.
Oh, yes. But my date was 1591 not 1891 :-)
The question is: was there any gay subculture
before urbanisation ? Homosexuality existed,
prostitution certainly existed but that is not
enough. A subculture needs a critical mass. You
can see it even today when gay men and women leave
their town to come to a big city and be part
of that subculture (thinking of Bronskie Beat
and Smalltown Boy now).
Interestingly enough, this may no longer be necessary with
the advent of the Net. There are people
who can be in contact with other gay men and women
without needing to leave their towns as this ng
can demonstrate.
JohnM
Malthouse <use...@calmeilles.demon.co.uk> writes
>On Fri, 31 Aug 2001 06:58:01 GMT graham wrote:
>}
>} Indeed, hence my querying of Ackroyd's apparent conclusion that
>} evidence of prostitution indicates a gay community. It may be worth
>} looking into the history of the molly houses, including how and where
>} they originated. Those of you who went to see Mother Clap - any
>} ideas?
>
>The already mentioned _Mother Clap's Molly House : The Gay Subculture in
>England 1700-1830_, Rictor Norton, Paperback - 302 pages (15 December,
>1999) GMP Publishers; ISBN: 0854491880
>
>
>Also:
Queer Sites - Gay Urban Histories since 1600 Ed. David Higgs Routledge
1999. This one gives some excellent histories about gay life in Paris,
Moscow, Amsterdam, London, Lisbon, Rio and San Francisco. It is a much
better book than Norton's and excellently researched.
JohnM
<stev...@dca.net> writes
>The notion that just because there wasn't a social concept of homosexuality
>that homosexuality as a sexual orientation didn't exist is ludicrous. There
>is plenty of evidence in diaries from centuries long past that there were
>people who felt guiltstricken over their exclusively "unnatural" same-sex
>urges. Whether they thought these were caused by demons is immaterial: the
>orientation per se existed.
I'm not so sure whom you are responding to, but it is the development
of a subculture that we are talking about not sexual orientation. I
don't think there's any doubt about that!
>
>Also, if early police, court, and medical accounts are to be believed, there
>were plenty of unrepentant homosexuals who did not want to be "reformed" or
>"cured," and who knew other such people. Not a gay community as we would
>understand it, but certainly something that people should be more aware of.
Certainly, but having for instance gay bars and pubs and places
where people socialised because they were gay is what Graham and I
were interested in. When did it start ?
Mike
(Matthew Malthouse) wrote:
snip
>Foucault, Michel,
> _The History of Sexuality_
> (3 vols), Trans R. Hurley, Allen Lane, London, 1979-99)
>
snip
If you're interested in the social construction of sexuality, then can
I recommend "Hallucinating Foucault" , written by Patricia Duncker in
1996. Published by Serpent's Tail, ISBN is 1-85242-510-5. Their
website is www.serpentstail.com .
The book is a fascinating exploration of gender, sexuality and
madness. All topics that fascinate me. I couldn't even figure out the
gender of many characters until half way through the book.
It deals with a supposed liaison between Michel Foucault and and Paul
Michel, a novelist who are only known to have met once during the
1960s.
It's absolutely fascinating. I'd recommend it to all readers of this
newsgroup.
All the best, bonny lads and lasses!
Mike
Lyn David Thomas
wrote:
>The notion that just because there wasn't a social concept of homosexuality
>that homosexuality as a sexual orientation didn't exist is ludicrous.
I am not necessarily agreeing with the idea, but it is worth
examining. I believe the development of a gay subculture has enabled
people to put their desires in a context and thus has existed as a
sort of positive feedback mechanism. That does not mean that
homosexuality is the creation of the pub and club scene as some people
would like us to believe.
Steven Capsuto
> >Also, if early police, court, and medical accounts are to be believed, there
> >were plenty of unrepentant homosexuals who did not want to be "reformed" or
> >"cured," and who knew other such people. Not a gay community as we would
> >understand it, but certainly something that people should be more aware of.
>
> Certainly, but having for instance gay bars and pubs and places
> where people socialised because they were gay is what Graham and I
> were interested in. When did it start ?
On a large scale, 19th century, I should think. At least those are the earliest
references I recall reading.
JohnM
Thomas <l...@cibwr.freeserve.co.uk> writes
>On Fri, 31 Aug 2001 13:35:01 GMT, Steven Capsuto <stev...@dca.net>
>wrote:
>
>>The notion that just because there wasn't a social concept of homosexuality
>>that homosexuality as a sexual orientation didn't exist is ludicrous.
>
>I am not necessarily agreeing with the idea, but it is worth
>examining. I believe the development of a gay subculture has enabled
>people to put their desires in a context and thus has existed as a
>sort of positive feedback mechanism. That does not mean that
>homosexuality is the creation of the pub and club scene as some people
>would like us to believe.
Yep - agreed.
JohnM
<stev...@dca.net> writes
There are documented cases - from sodomy trial records - of houses where
homosexuals congregated sometimes dressed in women's clothing and having
mock female names - the said Mother Clap's Molly House being a famous
one - from the early 18th century in London and attending spectacles
such as 'birthing' - all in line with the definitions of a subculture.
There is also evidence - disputed - by the French historian Maurice
Lever that there was in the 1680s a secret
society of sodomites called the 'Italian brotherhood' in Paris.
BTW I have a theory that 'birthing' was not what it meant - I don't know
if and how it's portrayed in the play - but having read the
descriptions, I would hypothesise that it might be a form of public
fisting %-]
There is an excellent site with links et al in :
http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/pwh/index-med.html#c6
which includes Roctor Norton's sites and much much more.
There is so much material there to keep you hooked on
for weeks.
(I could not suppress a polite snigger when I found
that it also mentions Peter Tatchell's persecution
by the Liberals in the Bermondsey by-election)
--
JohnM - GERMANY ONE - ENGLAND F I V E !
Steven Capsuto
>
> There is an excellent site with links et al in :
>
> http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/pwh/index-med.html#c6
>
> which includes Roctor Norton's sites and much much more.
> There is so much material there to keep you hooked on
> for weeks.
Thanks! Bookmarked for future reference!