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slate roof - felt or not?

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George (dicegeorge)

ungelesen,
28.04.2008, 11:56:4228.04.08
an
There are lots of slipped slates on my roof, with rusty nails,
the local builder recommends reslating the whole roof
rather than patching it again and again.

At the moment there is no felt, he advises felt,
is there any reason not to use felt?

or is there an even better option?

I will use a professional for this
as I almost broke my back in a fall a few years ago,
and ladders scare me!

--

[george]


PeterMcC

ungelesen,
28.04.2008, 12:15:1228.04.08
an
George (dicegeorge) wrote in
<fv4s8a$2amu$1...@energise.enta.net>

I'm with you on that - being scared of ladders is nature's way of stopping
you plunging to the ground from one.

As far as the roof is concerned, have you thought about sprayed foam
insulation? I have to admit to having had something to do with these folks
on a commercial basis a while back but they do claim that it's cheaper than
having a re-roof and there's the benefit of insulation and a permanent fix
for the tiles.

http://www.foamspray.co.uk/benefits.html

--
PeterMcC
If you feel that any of the above is incorrect,
inappropriate or offensive in any way,
please ignore it and accept my apologies.

PCPaul

ungelesen,
28.04.2008, 12:25:5728.04.08
an
On Mon, 28 Apr 2008 17:15:12 +0100, PeterMcC wrote:

> As far as the roof is concerned, have you thought about sprayed foam
> insulation? I have to admit to having had something to do with these
> folks on a commercial basis a while back but they do claim that it's
> cheaper than having a re-roof and there's the benefit of insulation and
> a permanent fix for the tiles.
>
> http://www.foamspray.co.uk/benefits.html

We have that here on a rented place (that we might end up buying one
day...)

Seems fine, *but* almost anyone I mention it to sucks their teeth and
says 'ooh the damp gets into the joists'.

Any first hand experiences, good or bad?

Tanner-'op

ungelesen,
28.04.2008, 12:33:5428.04.08
an
George (dicegeorge) wrote:
> There are lots of slipped slates on my roof, with rusty nails,
> the local builder recommends reslating the whole roof
> rather than patching it again and again.

A good decision.

> At the moment there is no felt, he advises felt,
> is there any reason not to use felt?

There is every reason to *USE* felt. The main one is that if a slate slips
or breaks then the felt (if properly fitted) will prevent water from
entering the roof space until the slate can be replaced.

> or is there an even better option?

A close boarded roof with felt and slate (Welsh slate being the best) but
the cost will frighten you! :-)

> I will use a professional for this
> as I almost broke my back in a fall a few years ago,
> and ladders scare me!

That's a good idea anyway.

Tanner-'op


fred

ungelesen,
28.04.2008, 13:01:5428.04.08
an
In article <67mcjeF...@mid.individual.net>, Tanner-'op
<tannerop@i.?.?.?.?.?.nvalid.com> writes

>George (dicegeorge) wrote:
>> There are lots of slipped slates on my roof, with rusty nails,
>> the local builder recommends reslating the whole roof
>> rather than patching it again and again.
>
>A good decision.
>
>> At the moment there is no felt, he advises felt,
>> is there any reason not to use felt?
>
>There is every reason to *USE* felt. The main one is that if a slate slips
>or breaks then the felt (if properly fitted) will prevent water from
>entering the roof space until the slate can be replaced.
>
Totally agree, a failsafe (faildry?) system has to be better than one
which allows damp ingress on a single point of failure.

>> or is there an even better option?
>
>A close boarded roof with felt and slate (Welsh slate being the best) but
>the cost will frighten you! :-)
>

I thought all slate roofs were close boarded but that's what living in
Scotlandshire does for your perceptions. If cost isn't an object and you
might insulate or convert the loft later then a breathable membrane in
place of felt would be a further improvement. Any (unlikely) damp
ingress below the membrane would have a chance of escape in warmer
weather, saving timbers from potential rot.
--
fred
Plusnet - I hope you like vanilla

d...@gglz.com

ungelesen,
28.04.2008, 13:08:3128.04.08
an

> Seems fine, *but* almost anyone I mention it to sucks their teeth and
> says 'ooh the damp gets into the joists'.

The danger is that any rain blown under the slates will be trapped for
much longer than normal between slate and insulation and will lead to
wood rot in the rafters.

Stuart Noble

ungelesen,
28.04.2008, 13:17:4928.04.08
an

Building next to ours had the foam treatment about 15 years ago. I
sucked my teeth at the time but it appears I was wrong.

Jim Alexander

ungelesen,
28.04.2008, 13:30:2428.04.08
an

"fred" <n...@for.mail> wrote in message news:7o9u2LACMgFIFw2Q@y.z...

> In article <67mcjeF...@mid.individual.net>, Tanner-'op
> <tannerop@i.?.?.?.?.?.nvalid.com> writes
>>George (dicegeorge) wrote:
>>> There are lots of slipped slates on my roof, with rusty nails,
>>> the local builder recommends reslating the whole roof
>>> rather than patching it again and again.
>>
>>A good decision.
>>
>>> At the moment there is no felt, he advises felt,
>>> is there any reason not to use felt?
>>
>>There is every reason to *USE* felt. The main one is that if a slate
>>slips
>>or breaks then the felt (if properly fitted) will prevent water from
>>entering the roof space until the slate can be replaced.
>>
> Totally agree, a failsafe (faildry?) system has to be better than one
> which allows damp ingress on a single point of failure.
>
Except a single point of failure (a single slate slipping) does not result
in a leak unless the slate below is also faulty.

Anyway I fail to understand the reliance on a material with a much
lesser life than the 100 years plus of 2 layers of slate.

OK there are now better materials than traditional felt.

Jim A

Tanner-'op

ungelesen,
28.04.2008, 14:12:3528.04.08
an
Jim Alexander wrote:
> "fred" <n...@for.mail> wrote in message news:7o9u2LACMgFIFw2Q@y.z...
>> In article <67mcjeF...@mid.individual.net>, Tanner-'op
>> <tannerop@i.?.?.?.?.?.nvalid.com> writes
>>> George (dicegeorge) wrote:
>>>> There are lots of slipped slates on my roof, with rusty nails,
>>>> the local builder recommends reslating the whole roof
>>>> rather than patching it again and again.
>>>
>>> A good decision.
>>>
>>>> At the moment there is no felt, he advises felt,
>>>> is there any reason not to use felt?
>>>
>>> There is every reason to *USE* felt. The main one is that if a
>>> slate slips
>>> or breaks then the felt (if properly fitted) will prevent water from
>>> entering the roof space until the slate can be replaced.
>>>
>> Totally agree, a failsafe (faildry?) system has to be better than one
>> which allows damp ingress on a single point of failure.
>>
> Except a single point of failure (a single slate slipping) does not
> result in a leak unless the slate below is also faulty.

Well that's what the felt is there for - just in case more than one slate
breaks or slips!

> Anyway I fail to understand the reliance on a material with a much
> lesser life than the 100 years plus of 2 layers of slate.

Slate is a rather brittle material, especially if a ridge tile blows off and
bounces down the roof or, frost gets into a small crack and does it 'dirty
work' over a period of time!

> OK there are now better materials than traditional felt.

You have to use a 'permeable membrane' material now rather than the old
bituminous felt.

Tanner-'op

Tanner-'op

ungelesen,
28.04.2008, 14:16:0728.04.08
an

Fred,

No not all slate roofs are close boarded - that is usually reserved for the
'better' class of building and the 'normal' house these days (and in the
past) is simply trussed, felted, battened and tiled - using a permeable
(breathable) sraking felt as a matter of course.

Tanner-'op


Stuart Noble

ungelesen,
28.04.2008, 14:13:4328.04.08
an

Without felt you'd be in trouble if it rained halfway through the job.
Certainly easier than lugging tarpaulins over the roof

Rob

ungelesen,
28.04.2008, 14:17:2728.04.08
an

"PeterMcC" <pe...@mccourt.org.uk> wrote in message
news:fv4t5n$2cd4$1...@energise.enta.net...

> George (dicegeorge) wrote in
> <fv4s8a$2amu$1...@energise.enta.net>
>
>> There are lots of slipped slates on my roof, with rusty nails,
>> the local builder recommends reslating the whole roof
>> rather than patching it again and again.
>>
>> At the moment there is no felt, he advises felt,
>> is there any reason not to use felt?
>>
>> or is there an even better option?
>>
>> I will use a professional for this
>> as I almost broke my back in a fall a few years ago,
>> and ladders scare me!
>
> I'm with you on that - being scared of ladders is nature's way of stopping
> you plunging to the ground from one.
>
> As far as the roof is concerned, have you thought about sprayed foam
> insulation? I have to admit to having had something to do with these folks
> on a commercial basis a while back but they do claim that it's cheaper
> than
> having a re-roof and there's the benefit of insulation and a permanent fix
> for the tiles.
>

If you watched any consumer advice programmes you would avoid spray on
insulation
at all costs! Keep well away.
Get your local builder to do the job and use what he suggests.


Stuart Noble

ungelesen,
28.04.2008, 14:25:2828.04.08
an

> If you watched any consumer advice programmes you would avoid spray on
> insulation
> at all costs! Keep well away.

Are you sure that doesn't just mean stay away from cowboy contractors?
The principle seems to work well enough though I wouldn't risk it myself.

d...@gglz.com

ungelesen,
28.04.2008, 14:32:1628.04.08
an

> Building next to ours had the foam treatment about 15 years ago. I
> sucked my teeth at the time but it appears I was wrong.

A friend also had foam on the back of unfelted slates. That seems to
have been good for many years.

However 15 years isn't long in the lifetime of a roof - and usually
there is some hope both of reusing roof coverings and that the rafters
will not need attention - neither may be possible when a foam treated
roof finally does need attention.

Another factor is professionalism. I would suspect that a foam
treatment could be used to patch up a failing roof without fixing the
real problems - rain leakage may no longer be seen - but rafter damage
may be occurring.

blue

ungelesen,
28.04.2008, 14:51:1628.04.08
an
On 28 Apr, 16:56, "George \(dicegeorge\)" <dicegeo...@xxxhotmail.com>
wrote:

If you have this situation it is indicative of the current roof
reaching the end of its useful life. It is certainly better to re-
cover that just patch.

I would suggest that a breathable membrane is better than 'felt'
see :
http://www.bbacerts.co.uk/pdf/brtu.pdf

You should not have to spend too much on new slates as the existing
slates should be perfectly ok, unless they are spalling or going
'mushy' , so don't pay for a whole roof of slates when you shouldn't
need more than 10% replacement (broken, missing).

Whatever you do don't use that stick-on-foam stuff it will rot the
woodwork.

best of luck

The Natural Philosopher

ungelesen,
28.04.2008, 16:14:5928.04.08
an
George (dicegeorge) wrote:
> There are lots of slipped slates on my roof, with rusty nails,
> the local builder recommends reslating the whole roof
> rather than patching it again and again.
>
> At the moment there is no felt, he advises felt,
> is there any reason not to use felt?

Well there are better materials that last longer, and yes you should use
SOMETHING.

>
> or is there an even better option?
>
> I will use a professional for this
> as I almost broke my back in a fall a few years ago,
> and ladders scare me!
>

No criticism on that score from me.;-)

The Natural Philosopher

ungelesen,
28.04.2008, 16:16:1128.04.08
an
The point is te roof is a cold roof typically, so the insulation does
bugger all.

On sound timbers, it probably means they will rot in 25 years instead of
100 years.

The Natural Philosopher

ungelesen,
28.04.2008, 16:18:5828.04.08
an
Tanner-'op wrote:
> George (dicegeorge) wrote:
>> There are lots of slipped slates on my roof, with rusty nails,
>> the local builder recommends reslating the whole roof
>> rather than patching it again and again.
>
> A good decision.
>
>> At the moment there is no felt, he advises felt,
>> is there any reason not to use felt?
>
> There is every reason to *USE* felt. The main one is that if a slate slips
> or breaks then the felt (if properly fitted) will prevent water from
> entering the roof space until the slate can be replaced.
>

The purpoe is to avoid low pressure over the slates due to wind ripping
them off: the felt later is not for waterproofing, it is for windproofing.

By and large there are too many holes in it where nail;s get driven
through to rely on it for waterproofing. I know then when my roof was
felted up before tiling, there were loads of leaks when it rained,
pissing all over the timbers.

Tanner-'op

ungelesen,
28.04.2008, 17:08:2828.04.08
an
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> Tanner-'op wrote:
>> George (dicegeorge) wrote:
>>> There are lots of slipped slates on my roof, with rusty nails,
>>> the local builder recommends reslating the whole roof
>>> rather than patching it again and again.
>>
>> A good decision.
>>
>>> At the moment there is no felt, he advises felt,
>>> is there any reason not to use felt?
>>
>> There is every reason to *USE* felt. The main one is that if a
>> slate slips or breaks then the felt (if properly fitted) will
>> prevent water from entering the roof space until the slate can be
>> replaced.
>
> The purpoe is to avoid low pressure over the slates due to wind
> ripping them off: the felt later is not for waterproofing, it is for
> windproofing.

You cannot avoid "low pressure over the roof" - and it is usually the low
pressure that lifts the slates off on the leeward side of the roof (this
creates a vacuum and 'sucks' the slates upwards and snapping them) and not
on the windward side. Direct wind pressure usually just pushes the slates
down onto each other/

The felt is for 'windproofing' ?? Not sure what mean here as the felt has
no wind proofong qualities as such in this situation - it is there simply as
stop-gap against water penetration.

As a matter of interest, you need a certain amount of airflow under the
edges of the felt/slates/tiles/eaves/cavites to prevent interstitial
condensation forming on the underside of the felt in the attic. Stopping
all that airflow can cause trouble - as people have found to their cost
when insulating the cavities and loft space without leaving room for an
airflow.

> By and large there are too many holes in it where nail;s get driven
> through to rely on it for waterproofing. I know then when my roof was
> felted up before tiling, there were loads of leaks when it rained,
> pissing all over the timbers.

Then the felt was poorly fixed or nails have 'missed' the rafters - I have
seen roofs around 20 tiles missing and no water in the attic!

>>> or is there an even better option?
>>
>> A close boarded roof with felt and slate (Welsh slate being the
>> best) but the cost will frighten you! :-)
>>

Tanner-'op


Hugo Nebula

ungelesen,
28.04.2008, 17:26:1428.04.08
an
On Mon, 28 Apr 2008 19:12:35 +0100, a particular chimpanzee,
"Tanner-'op" <tannerop@i......nvalid.com> randomly hit the keyboard
and produced:

>Jim Alexander wrote:

>> OK there are now better materials than traditional felt.
>
>You have to use a 'permeable membrane' material now rather than the old
>bituminous felt.

You don't "have to"; bituminous felt is still acceptable. I would go
for a breather membrane, though.
--
Hugo Nebula
"If no-one on the internet wants a piece of this,
just how far from the pack have you strayed?"

Hugo Nebula

ungelesen,
28.04.2008, 17:32:3228.04.08
an
On Mon, 28 Apr 2008 19:16:07 +0100, a particular chimpanzee,

"Tanner-'op" <tannerop@i......nvalid.com> randomly hit the keyboard
and produced:

>fred wrote:

>> I thought all slate roofs were close boarded but that's what living in
>> Scotlandshire does for your perceptions.

>No not all slate roofs are close boarded - that is usually reserved for the

>'better' class of building and the 'normal' house these days (and in the
>past) is simply trussed, felted, battened and tiled - using a permeable
>(breathable) sraking felt as a matter of course.

AFAIK it is a requirement for all new roofs in Scotland, not so in the
rest of the UK. It may have been used on higher status buildings in
the past where a higher standard of weatherproofing may have been
needed (by the coast, for example), but it was by no means common, and
it is virtually unknown these days (except when the roofer is
Scottish).

The Natural Philosopher

ungelesen,
28.04.2008, 17:41:0928.04.08
an
Tanner-'op wrote:
> The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>> Tanner-'op wrote:
>>> George (dicegeorge) wrote:
>>>> There are lots of slipped slates on my roof, with rusty nails,
>>>> the local builder recommends reslating the whole roof
>>>> rather than patching it again and again.
>>> A good decision.
>>>
>>>> At the moment there is no felt, he advises felt,
>>>> is there any reason not to use felt?
>>> There is every reason to *USE* felt. The main one is that if a
>>> slate slips or breaks then the felt (if properly fitted) will
>>> prevent water from entering the roof space until the slate can be
>>> replaced.
>> The purpoe is to avoid low pressure over the slates due to wind
>> ripping them off: the felt later is not for waterproofing, it is for
>> windproofing.
>
> You cannot avoid "low pressure over the roof" - and it is usually the low
> pressure that lifts the slates off on the leeward side of the roof (this
> creates a vacuum and 'sucks' the slates upwards and snapping them) and not
> on the windward side. Direct wind pressure usually just pushes the slates
> down onto each other/

Exactly,. By having the felt, you also guarantee that the air inside the
loft at a higher pressure cant travel to wards that low pressure and
push te slates off. I.e. the felt allows a low pressure area in BITH
sides f the slates.


>
> The felt is for 'windproofing' ?? Not sure what mean here as the felt has
> no wind proofong qualities as such in this situation - it is there simply as
> stop-gap against water penetration.

No, it is not. It is there to prevent the above. It does very little to
prevent water ingress which is why we dont have fully felted rooves, and
we do have many tiled rooves without felty.


>
> As a matter of interest, you need a certain amount of airflow under the
> edges of the felt/slates/tiles/eaves/cavites to prevent interstitial
> condensation forming on the underside of the felt in the attic. Stopping
> all that airflow can cause trouble - as people have found to their cost
> when insulating the cavities and loft space without leaving room for an
> airflow.
>

I know that: that's the big danger point. It allows the inside pressure
to be at atmospheric when a low pressure zone exists outside: thats why
the felt is needed, to stop that blowing back out except via the eaves..


>> By and large there are too many holes in it where nail;s get driven
>> through to rely on it for waterproofing. I know then when my roof was
>> felted up before tiling, there were loads of leaks when it rained,
>> pissing all over the timbers.
>
> Then the felt was poorly fixed or nails have 'missed' the rafters - I have
> seen roofs around 20 tiles missing and no water in the attic!
>

So have I, when its eithetr not raining or its all soaked into the
insulation/

The Natural Philosopher

ungelesen,
28.04.2008, 17:42:5628.04.08
an
Hugo Nebula wrote:
> On Mon, 28 Apr 2008 19:12:35 +0100, a particular chimpanzee,
> "Tanner-'op" <tannerop@i......nvalid.com> randomly hit the keyboard
> and produced:
>
>> Jim Alexander wrote:
>
>>> OK there are now better materials than traditional felt.
>> You have to use a 'permeable membrane' material now rather than the old
>> bituminous felt.
>
> You don't "have to"; bituminous felt is still acceptable. I would go
> for a breather membrane, though.

Permeable membrane is not needed in a 'cold roof'

Its there to vent 'warm roof' spaces where the joists are covered and
there is very little movement past them as they are insulated, with a
small air gap.

keith_765

ungelesen,
28.04.2008, 17:43:4128.04.08
an

CUT.

>>
>> As far as the roof is concerned, have you thought about sprayed foam
>> insulation? I have to admit to having had something to do with these
>> folks
>> on a commercial basis a while back but they do claim that it's cheaper
>> than
>> having a re-roof and there's the benefit of insulation and a permanent
>> fix
>> for the tiles.
>>
>
> If you watched any consumer advice programmes you would avoid spray on
> insulation
> at all costs! Keep well away.
> Get your local builder to do the job and use what he suggests.

NO!! don't get your local builder to do the job. Get a recommended roofing
contractor.

As far as spray on, it only holds on the underside of the slates or tiles on
in the roof space. When the exposed bottom half falls out where does the
rain go.
From professional experience getting a tile or slate out, of a sprayed roof
is a nightmare. You have to go inside and cut away all the foam about 18"
all round to release one tile or slate. If you ever have to strip a roof all
the slates or tiles are covered in the crap. Everything is stuck together,
spars, lath's and outer covering.

From a professional, KEEP WELL AWAY FROM SPRAY ON

By the way any roof either new or re roofed must by regs have a vapour
barrier underlay.


Cod Roe

ungelesen,
28.04.2008, 18:17:3328.04.08
an
George (dicegeorge) wrote:

> At the moment there is no felt, he advises felt,
> is there any reason not to use felt?
>
> or is there an even better option?

I'm very happy with my DuPont Tyvek Supro sealed counter-battened
permeable membrane system, this tells you everything you need to know:

http://www2.dupont.com/Tyvek_Construction/en_GB/assets/downloads/brochures/volume1_roofs_tyvek.pdf

It provides good ventilation to stop water vapor developing in the loft,
but also stops the wind blowing through, especially if you seal under
the eaves carriers with expanding foam. Using this technique gets the
most out of your insulation so keeps your heating bills down since the
heat is not blown away through the loft.

On the slate front I'm very pleased with Spannish Forna, you might want
to have a word with these guys:

http://www.bellevueroofingsupplies.co.uk/

who seems to cut a very good deal, but they like you to collect from any
distance.

One word of caution, be very careful with how your contractor intends to
deal with the edges, abutments, verges, valleys, whatever. A number of
GRP products, such as secret gutters for abutments are available which
ensure you don't get leak problems, far too many try to bodge flashings
without soakers or secret gutters. I had to re-timber a roof because of
lack of attention to detail in this area. Roofing really seems to be a
case of the devil being in the detail.

George (dicegeorge)

ungelesen,
28.04.2008, 18:21:2528.04.08
an
what is 'close boarded' ?

> A close boarded roof with felt and slate (Welsh slate being the best) but
> the cost will frighten you! :-)
>

--

[george]

~
"Tanner-'op" <tannerop@i......nvalid.com> wrote in message
news:67mcjeF...@mid.individual.net...

fred

ungelesen,
28.04.2008, 18:47:2028.04.08
an
In article <12094189...@proxy00.news.clara.net>, The Natural
Philosopher <a@b.c> writes
Indeed, making it future proof in case you want to build into the
roofspace and want to maximise the usable space.

fred

ungelesen,
28.04.2008, 19:03:3928.04.08
an
In article <c8gc14lup10tpnsfb...@4ax.com>, Hugo Nebula
<abuse@localhost.?> writes

>On Mon, 28 Apr 2008 19:16:07 +0100, a particular chimpanzee,
>"Tanner-'op" <tannerop@i......nvalid.com> randomly hit the keyboard
>and produced:
>
>>fred wrote:
>
>>> I thought all slate roofs were close boarded but that's what living in
>>> Scotlandshire does for your perceptions.
>
>>No not all slate roofs are close boarded - that is usually reserved for the
>>'better' class of building and the 'normal' house these days (and in the
>>past) is simply trussed, felted, battened and tiled - using a permeable
>>(breathable) sraking felt as a matter of course.
>
>AFAIK it is a requirement for all new roofs in Scotland, not so in the
>rest of the UK. It may have been used on higher status buildings in
>the past where a higher standard of weatherproofing may have been
>needed (by the coast, for example), but it was by no means common, and
>it is virtually unknown these days (except when the roofer is
>Scottish).

I've never seen an unboarded roof in Scotland but that's not
authoritative of course. Tell a lie, I have, but it was a barn.

Mark

ungelesen,
28.04.2008, 19:13:1728.04.08
an

George (dicegeorge) <diceg...@xxxhotmail.com> wrote in message
news:fv5imm$hrh$1...@energise.enta.net...

> what is 'close boarded' ?
>

This is, looking up at my roof from the loft
http://i32.tinypic.com/16kw9ds.jpg

-

meow...@care2.com

ungelesen,
29.04.2008, 02:10:3329.04.08
an
blue wrote:
> On 28 Apr, 16:56, "George \(dicegeorge\)" <dicegeo...@xxxhotmail.com>
> wrote:

> > There are lots of slipped slates on my roof, with rusty nails,
> > the local builder recommends reslating the whole roof
> > rather than patching it again and again.

Its always in the builder's interest to recommend this, as they get
4 figures rather than 3. IMLE most of these recommendations have
been inappropriate. Slate roofs shed slates over time, and the point
at which its best to reslate is purely economic, ie when the cost of
replacing a handful of slates every so many years works out to
more than the cost of a reroof. One house had around 20 slates
replaced several years ago after decades of neglect, and hasnt
had any more work needed since. I havent seen or know the
history of the roof, but more often than not just replacing missing
slates is the more economic and satisfactory option.

> > At the moment there is no felt, he advises felt,
> > is there any reason not to use felt?

felt is a good backup, though not essential functionally.

> > or is there an even better option?

yes, fibre cement. But it costs, and the cost isnt normally
warranted.

I hope you stay well away from foam. There are more probems with
it, such as the fact that it becomes impossible to inspect the roof
structure, hence if structural rot occurs, you wont know until there
is an eventual complete collapse. And it does significantly raise the
chance of rot.


NT

Roger

ungelesen,
29.04.2008, 05:00:0129.04.08
an
The message <c8gc14lup10tpnsfb...@4ax.com>
from Hugo Nebula <abuse@localhost> contains these words:

> AFAIK it is a requirement for all new roofs in Scotland, not so in the
> rest of the UK. It may have been used on higher status buildings in
> the past where a higher standard of weatherproofing may have been
> needed (by the coast, for example), but it was by no means common, and
> it is virtually unknown these days (except when the roofer is
> Scottish).

My first experience of building work was helping out on a house
reconstruction in Argyll one summer holiday in 1961 or 62. Even then
that roof was boarded first, and by a English Builder from
Stoke-on-Trent of all places.

--
Roger Chapman
Sure as Hell
My next Computer
Won't be a Dell

The Natural Philosopher

ungelesen,
29.04.2008, 05:16:3429.04.08
an

> One word of caution, be very careful with how your contractor intends to
> deal with the edges, abutments, verges, valleys, whatever. A number of
> GRP products, such as secret gutters for abutments are available which
> ensure you don't get leak problems, far too many try to bodge flashings
> without soakers or secret gutters. I had to re-timber a roof because of
> lack of attention to detail in this area. Roofing really seems to be a
> case of the devil being in the detail.

I can heartily endorse this: I had some good people and some not so good
people working on my tiled roof. The not so good did one side, and the
rain came in, at which point the good pair lifted the tiles and showed
me the crappy soakers that were totally useless. And made some new ones.

The final demise of te old hose was in fact a valley that no one seemed
able to fix. The new house that replaced it has two similar valleys,
with lead going infeasible distances under the tiles and thatch (its
where a tile section now abuts a thatch section: blame the council
planners for wanting it that way).

The Natural Philosopher

ungelesen,
29.04.2008, 05:18:1929.04.08
an
The very best way to stop tiles being blown off. And limit arctic gales
in the loft.


And, in the context of a complete re-slate, not that expensive to do.

Owain

ungelesen,
28.04.2008, 20:41:1528.04.08
an
Tanner-'op wrote:
> George (dicegeorge) wrote:
>> or is there an even better option?
> A close boarded roof

aka sarking. Sarking boards can help strengthen the roof by bracing it - see
http://www.wpif.org.uk/pg/09_section2_6v2.pdf.

> with felt and slate (Welsh slate being the best)

I thought Ballachulish was best :-) ...

Welsh slate is a smooth, rectangular, regular sized slate but the top or
back of typical Scottish slate is usually rugged; only the underside or
bed is smooth. As a result, most Scottish slates are shouldered or
sloped off at the top corners to help them lie flat.

Owain


George (dicegeorge)

ungelesen,
29.04.2008, 08:27:4729.04.08
an
There are rotten roof rafters with woodworm because of decades of leaks,
so i think the whole lot of slates should come off
and the wood be patched, replaced, and sprayed.

It's quite a steep roof, half of a large victorian house.
We're half way up a hill, wth trees behind the house,
so i dont think that sarking/boarding will be necessary.

The advantage of having no felting seems to me to be that
when there is a small leak I can find it from underneath,
damp patches in the attic and ceilings,
whereas with felt the damp problem would be hidden, and may be rotting wood
away secretly.

But most of you recommend a modern felting material.
There are a few roof spaces that could in future be converted to living
spaces,
that's a future project,
this summer I just want to get the roof derotted and watertight.
And maybe get the hot water working.

--

[george]

~ [g] ~
~ geo...@dicenews.com ~
~ 07970 378 572 ~
~ www.dicegeorge.com ~
~ (c)2008 ~
~ ~

<meow...@care2.com> wrote in message
news:e48e3fee-9d48-4085...@a1g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...

The Natural Philosopher

ungelesen,
29.04.2008, 08:48:4929.04.08
an
George (dicegeorge) wrote:
> There are rotten roof rafters with woodworm because of decades of leaks,
> so i think the whole lot of slates should come off
> and the wood be patched, replaced, and sprayed.
>
> It's quite a steep roof, half of a large victorian house.
> We're half way up a hill, wth trees behind the house,
> so i dont think that sarking/boarding will be necessary.
>
> The advantage of having no felting seems to me to be that
> when there is a small leak I can find it from underneath,
> damp patches in the attic and ceilings,
> whereas with felt the damp problem would be hidden, and may be rotting wood
> away secretly.
>
> But most of you recommend a modern felting material.
> There are a few roof spaces that could in future be converted to living
> spaces,
> that's a future project,
> this summer I just want to get the roof derotted and watertight.
> And maybe get the hot water working.
>

Do the job properly then. Strip it. New timbers or treat the old, and
FELT it with at least a breathable membrane. Proper eves vents with
insect mesh, and maybe a ridge vent or two.


At this level it s probably a Building Notification matter, and I
suspect they wont let you do any less actually.


I would even consider boarding it frankly - exterior grade ply ..adds a
lot of strength and windproofing.

If you have the budget, and its sensible given the construction, I would
also insulate between the rafters and board it out inside.

Make a nice room out of a crabby old loft.

George (dicegeorge)

ungelesen,
29.04.2008, 08:57:1929.04.08
an
stuart's reminder of it raining halfway through is the strongest argument
for felting...

i guess the roofer will take the slates off first,
cover it with plastic,
then the wood people will replace the rotten rafters and spray them
then recover with plastic,
then the roofer will put in battens and felt
then slowly fit slates over the top...

it's a complicated roof,
and last summer it rained and rained,
and i have computers and books etcetera in the rooms below,
and very fancy plaster in some of the rooms below

what do roofing contractors do in rainy weather?

"Stuart Noble" <stuart_no...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:rtoRj.93210$4f4....@newsfe6-win.ntli.net...

>>
>
> Without felt you'd be in trouble if it rained halfway through the job.
> Certainly easier than lugging tarpaulins over the roof


George (dicegeorge)

ungelesen,
29.04.2008, 09:03:1829.04.08
an
<a@b.c> wrote :

also insulate between the rafters and board it out inside.


That's something I can DIY in the winter after they're gone isnt it?
Whether or not it's boarded on the top?

And even maybe give it a year or two first to see if there are any leaks
where they forgot a few nails.

--

[george]


George (dicegeorge)

ungelesen,
29.04.2008, 09:13:4829.04.08
an
ive just uploaded a picture of the roof
http://www.dicegeorge.com/psb/psimg/hatfield-from-above-cropped-sharpened.jpg

there's a lot to do!

--

[george]


Tournifreak

ungelesen,
29.04.2008, 09:40:4229.04.08
an
On Apr 29, 2:03 pm, "George \(dicegeorge\)"
<dicegeo...@xxxhotmail.com> wrote:
>  <a...@b.c> wrote :

> also insulate between the rafters and board it out inside.
>
> That's something I can DIY in the winter after they're gone isnt it?
> Whether or not it's boarded on the top?

Do yourself a favour and get all the wood you're likely to need into
the roof space while they're redoing the roof. The access is much
bigger than your loft hatch, meaning you can get nice big sheets up,
which will save you an arm and a leg, and a LOT of time!

Jon.

fred

ungelesen,
29.04.2008, 09:48:2629.04.08
an
In article <fv76vt$cmm$1...@energise.enta.net>, George (dicegeorge)
<diceg...@xxxhotmail.com> writes

>ive just uploaded a picture of the roof
>http://www.dicegeorge.com/psb/psimg/hatfield-from-above-cropped-sharpened.jpg
>
>there's a lot to do!
>
Oooh, that is a lot.

The benefit of boarding and the use of breathable membrane is that it
leaves your options open to do absolutely anything underneath in the
future. You've clearly got some dormer and used attic space so the
option of a warm roof is useful and the small additional cost over a
basic job should be worth it.

I'm used to seeing roofs in relatively exposed situations so would
automatically tend towards boarding, felting/membraning, battening,
counter battening and finishing. Although possibly with variations
depending on the final roof finishing. I wouldn't like to see membrane
flapping loose over rafters.

Mark

ungelesen,
29.04.2008, 12:46:1229.04.08
an

"The Natural Philosopher" <a@b.c> wrote in message
news:120946069...@proxy02.news.clara.net...

> Mark wrote:
>> George (dicegeorge) <diceg...@xxxhotmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:fv5imm$hrh$1...@energise.enta.net...
>>> what is 'close boarded' ?
>>>
>>
>> This is, looking up at my roof from the loft
>> http://i32.tinypic.com/16kw9ds.jpg
>>
>>
> The very best way to stop tiles being blown off. And limit arctic gales in
> the loft.
> And, in the context of a complete re-slate, not that expensive to do.
>

Well that does rather depend on the size of the roof, with the cost of real
wood and labour these days it could add considerably to the cost.

I built that roof in 1971 at the tender age of 26 I think the material cost
was about £300 for the wood and it was done without any electric tools just
a hammer and handsaw. :)

-


meow...@care2.com

ungelesen,
29.04.2008, 13:32:4029.04.08
an
George (dicegeorge) wrote:

> There are rotten roof rafters with woodworm because of decades of leaks,
> so i think the whole lot of slates should come off

How much rotten woodwork? Again its usually way less work and
cost to simply patch the bad wood. A handful of added bits of wood
versus a complete reroof... or is the roof really at risk of coming
down on its own?


> and the wood be patched, replaced, and sprayed.

> It's quite a steep roof, half of a large victorian house.
> We're half way up a hill, wth trees behind the house,
> so i dont think that sarking/boarding will be necessary.
>
> The advantage of having no felting seems to me to be that
> when there is a small leak I can find it from underneath,
> damp patches in the attic and ceilings,
> whereas with felt the damp problem would be hidden, and may be rotting wood
> away secretly.

If you reroof, felt is a requirement.


> But most of you recommend a modern felting material.
> There are a few roof spaces that could in future be converted to living
> spaces,
> that's a future project,
> this summer I just want to get the roof derotted and watertight.

right - do make you future life easier though, as others have said.


> And maybe get the hot water working.

Fun :( Maybe you need one of these... :)
http://www.wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?title=Budget_Hot_Water_Systems


NT


Hugo Nebula

ungelesen,
29.04.2008, 14:40:3229.04.08
an
On Mon, 28 Apr 2008 22:42:56 +0100, a particular chimpanzee, The
Natural Philosopher <a@b.c> randomly hit the keyboard and produced:

>Permeable membrane is not needed in a 'cold roof'
>
>Its there to vent 'warm roof' spaces where the joists are covered and
>there is very little movement past them as they are insulated, with a
>small air gap.

A "warm roof" is insulated above the rafters and therefore doesn't
need venting (the rafters are held above the dewpoint). Any other
roof is a "cold roof" despite the advertising of the breather membrane
manufacturers.

The void between the insulation and the covering in a cold roof must
be ventilated in some way. If vented through gaps at the eaves and
the ridge any membrane can be used (slater's felt or breather
membrane), otherwise breathable membrane must be used in accordance
with the BBA certificate (taut & counterbattens over or draped, laps
taped or open, etc).

The Natural Philosopher

ungelesen,
30.04.2008, 13:59:2730.04.08
an
George (dicegeorge) wrote:
> <a@b.c> wrote :
> also insulate between the rafters and board it out inside.
>
>
> That's something I can DIY in the winter after they're gone isnt it?
> Whether or not it's boarded on the top?
>

Yes.


> And even maybe give it a year or two first to see if there are any leaks
> where they forgot a few nails.
>

Yes ;-)

The Natural Philosopher

ungelesen,
30.04.2008, 14:01:2530.04.08
an

I heartily agree. A good sound roof is with a lot in terms of peace of
mind, and 50 years down the line, resale value.

It MAY even net you a bit less insurance costs.

The Natural Philosopher

ungelesen,
30.04.2008, 14:05:3830.04.08
an
meow...@care2.com wrote:
> George (dicegeorge) wrote:
>
>> There are rotten roof rafters with woodworm because of decades of leaks,
>> so i think the whole lot of slates should come off
>
> How much rotten woodwork? Again its usually way less work and
> cost to simply patch the bad wood. A handful of added bits of wood
> versus a complete reroof... or is the roof really at risk of coming
> down on its own?
>

Thats a very moot point: I would say that if more than about 15% of wood
needs repalcing, its probably ceheaper to strip and replace everything
suspect. I could NOT elieve how much time it took a carpenter to make a
bit of dormer.Essentially all the fiddling on the dormers took MORE time
than putting up all the main roof timbers.

I would only ver patch repair in a listed situation: if any part of a
joist is gone, take the whole joist out. Its haboring spores, and its
suspect, and it tales just as long to cut in a section as a whole new joist.


>
>> and the wood be patched, replaced, and sprayed.
>
>> It's quite a steep roof, half of a large victorian house.
>> We're half way up a hill, wth trees behind the house,
>> so i dont think that sarking/boarding will be necessary.
>>
>> The advantage of having no felting seems to me to be that
>> when there is a small leak I can find it from underneath,
>> damp patches in the attic and ceilings,
>> whereas with felt the damp problem would be hidden, and may be rotting wood
>> away secretly.
>
> If you reroof, felt is a requirement.
>

I certainly believed it was.


>
>> But most of you recommend a modern felting material.
>> There are a few roof spaces that could in future be converted to living
>> spaces,
>> that's a future project,
>> this summer I just want to get the roof derotted and watertight.
>
> right - do make you future life easier though, as others have said.
>

Yup.

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