Wiki: Acid
Tabby
NT
==Precautions==
Most acids are high risk chemicals. Several precautions are advisable
with the stronger acids. These don't all apply to vinegar & citric
acid.
* When diluting, never add water to acid, always add acid to water.
Doing so is sometimes highly exothermic, and should be done a bit at a
time, wearing safety specs. If done the wrong way the result can even
progress to explosion sometimes. Exploding boiling acid is not an
essential nutrient.
* The stronger acids used in DIY can eat through skin rapidly. Wear
suitable gloves
* When holding hold the bottle by the label area, so any unnoticed
runs are on the same side, and that's not where you're holding it.
* Don't mix acid with bleach, the resulting chlorine is quite toxic.
* Don't mix acid with alkalis, excess heat is generated, and boiling
spitting acid isn't usually a good thing.
* Strong acid plus metal can generate hydrogen, which is explosive at
above 4% concentration.
* Suitable gloves & eye protection are sensible for the stronger
acids.
* In case of skin contact with strong acids, wash for 10 minutes to
minimise burning, chemical reaction & contamination. In case of eye
contact, wash well and seek medical help promptly.
==Hydrochloric Acid==
[[image:HCl 34% 4168-3.jpg|right|200px]]
* The strongest of all the acids used in DIY
* Also known as spirits of salt, muriatic acid
Uses
* Eats cement & lime
* Cleans cement off bricks etc - but not off cement products
* Can also be used to descale ceramics, but can discolour otherwise
unnoticeable surface cracking
18% hydrochoric acid is used industrially to clean steel before
coating ('pickling'). Spent pickling solution is sometimes then used
as ferrous chloride.
Risks
* Destroys cement joints in ceramic pipes
* Strong HCl produces choking fumes and mist
* HCl is highly corrosive to skin, eyes, lungs etc, and toxic.
Inhalation of ttoo much of the fumes can cause death
* In case of skin contact, wash for 10-15 minutes. In case of eye
contact, wash for 10-15 minutes, lifting both upper & lower eyelids
regularly, and seek medical advice without delay.
* Incompatible with many substances
* [http://grover.mirc.gatech.edu/data/msds/50.html MSDS]
Purchase
* Sold as brick acid, drain unblocker, and is a component of many
patio cleaners.
* Available upto 34%
==Sulphuric Acid==
[[image:H2SO4 98% 4170-3.JPG|right|200px]]
Sulphuric acid has many names, including vitriol, glover acid, tower
acid, fertiliser acid, chamber acid, battery acid, dipping acid,
mattling acid, electrolyte acid.
Uses
* Eats organic materials rapidly. Eats paper etc in seconds.
* Good for drains where the blockage is organic
* Density of 1.84 means it sinks to the bottom of blockages
* Lead acid batteries use high purity sulphuric acid of around 4M.
Less pure drain cleaning acid is not usable for batteries.
* Strong desiccant
* Reaction with sugar produces carbon
* Reaction of hot strong H2SO4 with copper produces copper sulphate, a
mould inhibiting antimicrobial.
* Reaction with zinc produces zinc sulphate, a mould inhibiting
antimicrobial.
* Used industrially to remove rust
Risks
* Dangerous to skin & eyes
* Destroys cement joints in ceramic pipes
* Toxic
* Strong sulphuric acid can react violently with water
* In work situations all use of sulphuric acid must be assessed under
the COSHH regulations.
* [http://msds.chem.ox.ac.uk/SU/sulfuric_acid_concentrated.html MSDS]
Purchase
* Upto 98% sulphuric acid is available as drain unblocker.
==Sulphamic Acid==
Also known as sulfamic acid, amidosulfonic acid, amidosulfuric acid,
aminosulfonic acid, and sulfamidic acid
Uses
* Used to descale heat exchangers in heating systems
* Descale and clean metals and ceramics
* A component in some household descalers & denture tablets
Risks
* Lower risk than hydrochloric acid
Purchase
* Fernox DS-3 contains sulphamic acid, inhibitors, indicators &
surfactant.
==Phospohoric Acid==
Uses
* Used as rust remover. Turns rust into a stable black ferric
phosphate. Often used as a gel preparation to enable it to cling to
surfaces at all angles.
* Phospohoric acid is used as a food additive, E338.
* Sometimes used to remove limescale and cement stains.
* Sometimes used as a soldering flux
Risks:
* Don't permit contact with bleach, ammonia or metals
* [http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/npg/npgd0506.html Safety data]
Purchase
* Sold in preparations known as rust convertor, rust remover, rust
killer, naval jelly.
==Acetic Acid==
[[image:Acetic acid 4159-4.JPG|right|200px]]
* Also known as ethanoic acid, acetyl hydroxide (AcOH), hydrogen
acetate (HAc), ethylic acid, methanecarboxylic acid
* Concentrated acetic acid is called glacial acetic acid. It freezes
at 16C.
* Acetic acid has a characteristic powerful vinegary smell.
Uses
* Sometimes used with other acids as a descaler
* Food additive E260
* Vinegar is primarily dilute acetic acid, typically around 4-8%
* Vinegar cleans copper, copper alloys, brass, bronze - the runoff is
toxic
* Diluted vinegar cleans glass & helps avoid smearing
* Glacial acetic acid is used to remove warts & verrucas, and the
dilute acid for ear infections.
* Acetic acid makes copper acetate, a pigment and fungicide.
Risks
* Acetic acid is corrosive, and at high strengths highly flammable.
* Overexposure to the fumes can cause difficulty breathing. This can
easily happen at room temperature.
* Symptoms of exposure can be delayed for a few hours.
* Fumes above 39C can be explosive
* Latex gloves don't protect against acetic acid, use nitrile ruber
gloves.
* [http://www.inchem.org/documents/icsc/icsc/eics0363.htm Safety info]
==Citric Acid==
* A weak edible acid
Uses
* Citric acid is a widely used food additive, E330
* Descaler for appliances that can't use stronger acids, eg kettles,
washing machines etc.
* 2% citric acid makes a handy scale tackling bathroom cleaner. 6% can
remove scale without rubbing
Salt enhances the descaling action of citric to an extent.
* Appliance descalers in supermarkets are usually citric acid based,
and a pricey way to buy the stuff.
* Citric acid can often substitute for lemon juice in recipes
Purchase
* Citric acid is sold as a bagged food additive in some foreign food
supermarkets, or less cheaply in small boxes at pharmacies (much used
by heroin users).
* Irritant to skin & eyes. In case of eye contact, wash well for 10
minutes and seek medical assistance
* Corrodes copper, zinc, aluminium and their alloys
* [http://www.coastalscents.com/cfwebstore/index.cfm?
fuseaction=feature.display&feature_id=217 MSDS]
==See Also==
[[Category:Cleaning]]
[[Category:Chemicals]]
Dave Osborne
You need to draw the distinction between "strong" and "concentrated".
You have a number of times used the adjective "strong" when you should
have used "concentrated"
Hydrochloric acid is of comparable strength as sulphuric acid, but you
can get sulphuric acid at 98% concentration, whereas, you rarely get
hydrochloric acid at above 50% concentration in a DIY situation. So,
although your assertion that hydrochloric acid is "the strongest of all
the acids used in DIY", is true, it is neither the most concentrated nor
arguably the most dangerous. I would certainly be more wary of sulphuric
acid than hydrochloric acid.
Hydrochloric acid is stomach acid and if you don't have any open wounds
you could happily wash your hands in a moderately concentrated solution
of it. Sulphuric acid is corrosive and dangerous to your skin and eyes
at almost any useful concentration.
More importantly, hydrofluoric acid (which is a weak acid and may
possibly be encountered in DIY situations) is, on the whole, very much
more dangerous than sulphuric acid as it is extremely corrosive to
organics, metals and glass.
You should also be clear whether concentrations cited as a percentage
are v/v, w/v or w/w.
Bob Martin
>Hydrochloric acid is stomach acid and if you don't have any open wounds
>you could happily wash your hands in a moderately concentrated solution
>of it. Sulphuric acid is corrosive and dangerous to your skin and eyes
>at almost any useful concentration.
Also, never add sulphuric acid to water, always the other way round!
stuart noble
> Hydrochloric acid is of comparable strength as sulphuric acid, but you
> can get sulphuric acid at 98% concentration, whereas, you rarely get
> hydrochloric acid at above 50% concentration in a DIY situation. So,
> although your assertion that hydrochloric acid is "the strongest of all
> the acids used in DIY", is true, it is neither the most concentrated nor
> arguably the most dangerous. I would certainly be more wary of sulphuric
> acid than hydrochloric acid.
>
stuff, and unexpectedly heavy when you pick the container up for the
first time
Tim Watts
> You need to draw the distinction between "strong" and "concentrated".
> You have a number of times used the adjective "strong" when you should
> have used "concentrated"
>
> Hydrochloric acid is of comparable strength as sulphuric acid, but you
> can get sulphuric acid at 98% concentration, whereas, you rarely get
> hydrochloric acid at above 50% concentration in a DIY situation.
hcl max is around 30odd%. Pure hcl is a gas
So, although your assertion that hydrochloric acid is "the strongest of
all the acids used in DIY", is true, it is neither the most concentrated
nor arguably the most dangerous. I would certainly be more wary of
sulphuric acid than hydrochloric acid.
>
> Hydrochloric acid is stomach acid and if you don't have any open
> wounds you could happily wash your hands in a moderately concentrated
> solution of it. Sulphuric acid is corrosive and dangerous to your skin
> and eyes at almost any useful concentration.
>
> More importantly, hydrofluoric acid (which is a weak acid and may
> possibly be encountered in DIY situations) is, on the whole, very much
> more dangerous than sulphuric acid as it is extremely corrosive to
> organics, metals and glass.
>
> You should also be clear whether concentrations cited as a percentage
> are v/v, w/v or w/w.
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strong_acid
--
Tim Watts
cynic
> Feedback welcome...
>
> NT
>
> ==Precautions==
> Most acids are high risk chemicals. Several precautions are advisable
> with the stronger acids.
SNIP
You seem to have happily mixed technically correct content with some
personal opinions. Wouldn't it have been simpler to list a series of
internet links to chemical properties and hazchem precautions from
existing industry websites?
Having extensively worked with some seriously hazardous chemicals such
as Hydrochloric, Sulphuric, Citric, Hydrofluoric, Acetic Anhydride and
a number of other acids plus Potassium Hydroxide, Sodium Hydroxide
Sodium Hypochlorite (Bleach) and exotic Organic compounds at
industrial bulk delivery concentrations in the food process industry,
I think their handling is best carried out under controlled conditions
using appropriate protective equipment. The appropriate instructions
are invariably made available by the suppliers or manufacturers (often
on the labels of the packaging).
Note that hydrofluoric acid dissolves glass and is used extensively in
the horticultural undustry to clean greenhouses. Contact with human
tissue is very dangerous but still it goes on. Phosphoric acid is also
extensively used as a nutrient component for irrigated glasshouse
crops such as cucumbers and tomatoes.
If the public knew what went on in producing some popular foods and
household products the sales would collapse overnight.
Jim K
> If the public knew what went on in producing some popular foods and
> household products the sales would collapse overnight.
ooo you tease! go on then shock me....
Jim K
Ade V
You're kidding, right?
You should _never_ _ever_ add water to conc sulphuric! Always add the
acid to the water, slowly, and stirring continuously. Stop if the
solution gets too hot.
--
Cheers, Ade. http://meddlingmonk.blogspot.com
"Your face reminds me of a roadkill's arsehole. Certainly not on my list
of things to kiss." - http://sleeptalkinman.blogspot.com
Mr. Benn
news:8ckc9g...@mid.individual.net...
You got that wrong. Acid to water. Always.
Rick Hughes
"Tabby" <meow...@care2.com> wrote in message
news:4a0b9e0e-8b83-487d...@u26g2000yqu.googlegroups.com...
> Feedback welcome...
>
should you include Nitric & Picric ?
The Medway Handyman
> Feedback welcome...
>
> NT
>
Would a simple explanation of the ph scale help?
--
Dave - The Medway Handyman
www.medwayhandyman.co.uk
The Medway Handyman
> On 2010-08-13, The Medway Handyman
> <davi...@no-spam-blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
>> Tabby wrote:
>>> Feedback welcome...
>>>
>>> NT
>>>
>>
>> Would a simple explanation of the ph scale help?
>
> you meant simpler than that.
Much simpler than that :-)
Most people have no idea of the difference between acid & alkali. Nor that
the scale is logrithmic IIUIC.
When I sold pressure washers & demonstrated with detergents of ph 13 punters
would often ask if it was "a acid that burned the dirt off".
Bernard Peek
> You need to draw the distinction between "strong" and "concentrated".
> You have a number of times used the adjective "strong" when you should
> have used "concentrated"
>
> Hydrochloric acid is of comparable strength as sulphuric acid, but you
> can get sulphuric acid at 98% concentration, whereas, you rarely get
> hydrochloric acid at above 50% concentration in a DIY situation. So,
> although your assertion that hydrochloric acid is "the strongest of all
> the acids used in DIY", is true, it is neither the most concentrated nor
> arguably the most dangerous. I would certainly be more wary of sulphuric
> acid than hydrochloric acid.
Technically Hydrochloric acid is a stronger acid that sulphuric but
that's only of academic interest. Sulphuric acid is far more dangerous
so in colloquial English it's stronger.
>
> Hydrochloric acid is stomach acid and if you don't have any open wounds
> you could happily wash your hands in a moderately concentrated solution
> of it. Sulphuric acid is corrosive and dangerous to your skin and eyes
> at almost any useful concentration.
>
> More importantly, hydrofluoric acid (which is a weak acid and may
> possibly be encountered in DIY situations) is, on the whole, very much
> more dangerous than sulphuric acid as it is extremely corrosive to
> organics, metals and glass.
Hydrofluoric acid is used to etch glass. It's particularly dangerous
because it attacks the skin and the resulting burns take far longer to
heal than other types of burn.
--
Bernard Peek
b...@shrdlu.com
Bernard Peek
Nitric isn't common but it's nasty. Concentrated it produces poisonous
and corrosive fumes. It attacks metals and organic matter and can cause
fires.
Picric is used as a topical antiseptic. It's mostly harmless in dilute
solution, explosive when dry. If a solution is exposed to light it can
throw down a solid precipitate which is explosive and shock-sensitive.
While we're about it, how about Chromic. Occasionally used for really
extreme cleaning applications. It's a mixture of chromate salts and
sulphuric acid. It's extremely corrosive and is an oxidant that can set
fire to organic materials like paper and skin.
--
Bernard Peek
b...@shrdlu.com
Bernard Peek
> Tabby wrote:
>> Feedback welcome...
>>
>> NT
>>
>
> Would a simple explanation of the ph scale help?
It's Log(10) of the reciprocal of the hydrogen ion concentration. So not
really very useful to the average DIYer.
The pH of concentrated hydrochloric acid is lower than that of
concentrated sulphuric. Despite that it's far less dangerous.
--
Bernard Peek
b...@shrdlu.com
Dave Liquorice
>>>> Would a simple explanation of the ph scale help?
>>>
>>> The negative of log10 molar hydrogen ion concentration? (*) Or
perhaps
>>> you meant simpler than that.
>>
>> Much simpler than that :-)
>>
>> Most people have no idea of the difference between acid & alkali.
Nor
>> that the scale is logrithmic IIUIC.
>
> Too long.
>
> "Most people have no idea."
Still too long.
"Most people don't care."
How ever something about the pH scale and acids v alkalies would be
useful.
--
Cheers
Dave.
Tabby
the next version...
NT
==Precautions==
Most acids are high risk chemicals. Several precautions are advisable
with many acids. These don't all apply to vinegar & citric acid.
* Due to the potentially high risk involved, labels should be read and
advice followed
* When diluting, never add water to acid, always add acid to water.
Doing so is sometimes highly exothermic, and should be done a bit at a
time, wearing safety specs. If done the wrong way the result can even
progress to explosion sometimes. Exploding boiling acid is not an
essential nutrient.
* Some acids used in DIY can eat through skin rapidly. Wear suitable
gloves
* When holding hold the bottle by the label area, so any unnoticed
runs are on the same side, and that's not where you're holding it.
* Don't mix acid with bleach, the resulting chlorine is quite toxic.
* Don't mix acid with alkalis, excess heat is generated, and boiling
spitting acid isn't a good idea.
* Some acids plus metal can generate hydrogen, which is explosive
above 4% concentration.
* Suitable gloves & eye protection are sensible for some of the acids.
* In case of skin contact with all but the mild acids, wash for 10
minutes to minimise burning, chemical reaction & contamination. In
case of eye contact, wash for at least 10 minutes and seek medical
help promptly.
==Sulphuric Acid==
[[image:H2SO4 98% 4170-3.JPG|right|200px]]
Sulphuric acid has many names, including vitriol, glover acid, tower
acid, fertiliser acid, chamber acid, battery acid, dipping acid,
mattling acid, electrolyte acid.
Uses
* Eats organic materials rapidly. Eats paper etc in seconds.
* Good for drains where the blockage is organic
* Density of 1.84 means it sinks to the bottom of blockages
* Lead acid batteries use high purity sulphuric acid of around 4M.
Less pure drain cleaning acid is not usable for batteries.
* Strong desiccant
* Reaction with sugar produces carbon
* Reaction of hot concetrated H2SO4 with copper produces copper
sulphate, a mould inhibiting antimicrobial.
* Reaction with zinc produces zinc sulphate, a mould inhibiting
antimicrobial.
* Used industrially to remove rust
Risks
* 98% sulphuric acid drain unblocker is probably the most dangerous of
the acids used in DIY. Put a drop on paper for a demo.
* Dangerous to skin & eyes
* Destroys cement joints in ceramic pipes
* Toxic
* Concentrated sulphuric acid can react violently with water
* In work situations all use of sulphuric acid must be assessed under
the COSHH regulations.
* [http://msds.chem.ox.ac.uk/SU/sulfuric_acid_concentrated.html MSDS]
Purchase
* Upto 98% sulphuric acid is available as drain unblocker.
==Hydrochloric Acid==
[[image:HCl 34% 4168-3.jpg|right|200px]]
* The strongest of all the acids used in DIY
* Also known as spirits of salt, muriatic acid
Uses
* Eats cement & lime
* Cleans cement off bricks etc - but not off cement products
* Can also be used to descale ceramics, but it can discolour otherwise
unnoticeable surface cracking
* 18% hydrochoric acid is used industrially to clean steel before
coating ('pickling'). Spent pickling solution is sometimes then used
as ferrous chloride.
Risks
* Destroys cement joints in ceramic pipes
* 34% HCl produces choking fumes and mist
* HCl is highly corrosive to skin, eyes, lungs etc, and toxic.
Inhalation of too much of the fumes can cause death
* In case of skin contact, wash for 10-15 minutes. In case of eye
contact, wash for 10-15 minutes, lifting both upper & lower eyelids
regularly, and seek medical advice without delay.
* Incompatible with many substances
* [http://grover.mirc.gatech.edu/data/msds/50.html MSDS]
Purchase
* Sold as brick acid, drain unblocker, and is a component of many
patio cleaners.
* Available upto 34%
==Chromic Acid==
Not often used by DIYers, but occasionally used for extreme ceramic
sink cleaning. Its exceptionally effective, but very toxic and not
recommended.
* Can set fire to organic materials like paper and skin.
==Hydroflouric acid==
Used to etch glass. A high risk acid that causes particularly bad
burns, but only used in tiny quantities in diy, typically in little
glass etching pens.
Also used in industrial horticulture to clean greenhouses.
==Sulphamic Acid==
Also known as sulfamic acid, amidosulfonic acid, amidosulfuric acid,
aminosulfonic acid, and sulfamidic acid
Uses
* Used to descale heat exchangers in heating systems
* Descale and clean metals and ceramics
* A component in some household descalers & denture tablets
Risks
* Lower risk than hydrochloric acid
Purchase
* Fernox DS-3 contains sulphamic acid, inhibitors, indicators &
surfactant.
==Phospohoric Acid==
Uses
* Used as rust remover. Turns rust into a stable black ferric
phosphate. Often used as a gel preparation to enable it to cling to
surfaces at all angles.
* Phospohoric acid is used as a food additive, E338.
* Sometimes used to remove limescale and cement stains.
* Sometimes used as a soldering flux
* Used commercially as a nutrient for irrigated glasshouse crops
Risks:
* Don't permit contact with bleach, ammonia or metals
* [http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/npg/npgd0506.html Safety data]
Purchase
* Sold in preparations known as rust convertor, rust remover, rust
killer, naval jelly.
==Acetic Acid==
[[image:Acetic acid 4159-4.JPG|right|200px]]
* Also known as ethanoic acid, acetyl hydroxide (AcOH), hydrogen
acetate (HAc), ethylic acid, methanecarboxylic acid
* Concentrated acetic acid is called glacial acetic acid. It freezes
at 16C.
* Acetic acid has a characteristic powerful vinegary smell.
Uses
* Vinegar is primarily dilute acetic acid, typically around 4-8%
* Vinegar cleans copper, copper alloys, brass, bronze - the runoff is
toxic
* Diluted vinegar cleans glass & helps avoid smearing
* Glacial acetic acid is used to remove warts & verrucas, and the
dilute acid for ear infections.
* Acetic acid makes copper acetate, a pigment and fungicide.
* Sometimes used with other acids as a descaler
* Food additive E260
Risks
* Acetic acid is corrosive, and at high strengths highly flammable.
* Overexposure to the fumes can cause difficulty breathing. This can
easily happen at room temperature.
* Consequences of exposure can be delayed for a few hours.
* Fumes above 39C can be explosive
* Latex gloves don't protect against acetic acid, use nitrile ruber
gloves.
* [http://www.inchem.org/documents/icsc/icsc/eics0363.htm Safety info]
==Citric Acid==
* A weak edible acid
Uses
* Citric acid is a widely used food additive, E330
* Descaler for appliances that can't take more effective acids, eg
kettles, washing machines etc.
* 2% citric acid makes a handy scale tackling bathroom cleaner. 6% can
remove scale without rubbing
Salt enhances the descaling action of citric to an extent.
* Appliance descalers in supermarkets are usually citric acid based,
with or without another acid and corrosion inhibitor. Not a cheap way
to buy the stuff.
* Citric acid can often substitute for lemon juice in recipes
Purchase
* Citric acid is sold as a bagged food additive in some foreign food
supermarkets, or less cheaply in small boxes at pharmacies (much used
by addicts).
* Irritant to skin & eyes. In case of eye contact, wash well for 10
minutes and seek medical assistance
* Corrodes copper, zinc, aluminium and their alloys
* [http://www.coastalscents.com/cfwebstore/index.cfm?
fuseaction=feature.display&feature_id=217 MSDS]
==See Also==
* [[Detergent]]
[[Category:Cleaning]]
[[Category:Chemicals]]
Tabby
wrote:
Would it really? I expect people that dont know about ph wont care,
and it doesnt really tell them anything new about the risk or uses of
these acids.
NT
geoff
<b...@shrdlu.com> writes
>> More importantly, hydrofluoric acid (which is a weak acid and may
>> possibly be encountered in DIY situations) is, on the whole, very much
>> more dangerous than sulphuric acid as it is extremely corrosive to
>> organics, metals and glass.
>
>Hydrofluoric acid is used to etch glass. It's particularly dangerous
>because it attacks the skin and the resulting burns take far longer to
>heal than other types of burn.
>
I really think you are wrong there, skin burns are the least of your
worries ...
"Hydrofluoric acid is an extremely corrosive liquid and is a contact
poison. It should be handled with extreme care, beyond that accorded to
other mineral acids. Owing to its low dissociation constant, HF
penetrates tissue more quickly than typical acids. Because of the
ability of hydrofluoric acid to penetrate tissue, poisoning can occur
readily through exposure of skin or eyes, or when inhaled or swallowed.
Symptoms of exposure to hydrofluoric acid may not be immediately
evident. HF interferes with nerve function, meaning that burns may not
initially be painful. Accidental exposures can go unnoticed, delaying
treatment and increasing the extent and seriousness of the injury.[8]
Once absorbed into blood through the skin, it reacts with blood calcium
and may cause cardiac arrest. Burns with areas larger than 25 square
inches (160 cm2) have the potential to cause serious systemic toxicity
from interference with blood and tissue calcium levels.[9] In the body,
hydrofluoric acid reacts with the ubiquitous biologically important ions
Ca2+ and Mg2+. Formation of insoluble calcium fluoride is proposed as
the etiology for both precipitous fall in serum calcium and the severe
pain associated with tissue toxicity.[10] In some cases, exposures can
lead to hypocalcemia. Thus, hydrofluoric acid exposure is often treated
with calcium gluconate, a source of Ca2+ that sequesters the fluoride
ions. HF chemical burns can be treated with a water wash and 2.5%
calcium gluconate gel[11][12][13] or special rinsing solutions.[14][15]
However, because it is absorbed, medical treatment is necessary;[9]
rinsing off is not enough. In some cases, amputation may be required"
--
geoff
Andy Burns
> ==Hydroflouric acid==
Ooops!
Grimly Curmudgeon
drugs began to take hold. I remember Tabby <meow...@care2.com> saying
something like:
>==Hydroflouric acid==
>Used to etch glass. A high risk acid that causes particularly bad
>burns, but only used in tiny quantities in diy, typically in little
>glass etching pens.
>
>Also used in industrial horticulture to clean greenhouses.
Might be worth mentioning the cautionary tale of accidentally and
unknowingly encountering it. Many modern cars have Viton hoses under the
bonnet and a fire there will char the hoses. Unfortunately the charred
hoses often have an HF acid component in them caused by the degradation
of the Viton. Some unlucky buggers in breakers' yards and elsewhere have
had HF burns from this.
Spamlet
"Bernard Peek" <b...@shrdlu.com> wrote in message
news:4c659b05$0$12158$fa0f...@news.zen.co.uk...
The only safe advice for the DIYer on chromic is don't have anything to do
with it. You cannot deal with the waste even if you can keep the stuff off
your skin. I used to test a chromating tank and advise on any chemical
additions that might be necessary. I wore a rubber mask, visor, and rubber
gauntlets up to my elbows. We had separate tanks for waste disposal, but
one day a charge hand rinsed his gloves in the sink. We later had a visit
from a very irate water board official... chromium is one thing they
definitely do not want down at the sewage works.
S
S
Spamlet
pH does not really mean much in very concentrated chemical solutions: it is
intended for situations in which water is still abundant. Concentrated
acids are effectively dehydrated, rather than fully ionised aqueous
solutions. Conc sulphuric acid is particularly 'dry', and has such an
affinity for water that it is used as a dehydrating agent to remove water
vapour from gases, and, if water is added to the acid, the reaction can be
so vigorous as to be effectively explosive and extremely dangerous.
So the point that should be asked is not "What is the pH of conc HCl, or
H2SO4 solutions?", but "Are HCl and H2SO4 *solutions* of the same pH equally
'dangerous'? But even then, we are not comparing like with like, and each
chemical has its own properties in addition to its acidity, and it is these
other properties that determine which acid we use for which purpose. As far
as Levis are concerned, *any* conc of H2SO4 is very dangerous indeed...
S
Bob Martin
It was right in my head but I reversed "always" and "never" when I typed.
Sorry!
Tabby
Perhaps that clear explanation could be posted on the talk page when
its up. Is that ok with you?
NT
Andy Burns
> "Mr. Benn"<inv...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>
>> "Bob Martin"<bob.m...@excite.com> wrote:
>
>>> never add sulphuric acid to water, always the other way round!
>>
>> You got that wrong. Acid to water. Always.
>
> It was right in my head but I reversed "always" and "never" when I typed.
> Sorry!
The traditional rhyme might have an annoying American tinge, but it's
difficult to remember it the wrong way round ...
"Do as you oughta, add acid to water"
stuart noble
Can't help thinking the whole thing is a non-starter in a d-i-y context
Andy Burns
> Can't help thinking the whole thing is a non-starter in a d-i-y context
Do schoolkids actually get to *do* chemistry thesedays, or just watch
youtube clips of glowing splints being inserted into boiling tubes of
potassium chlorate?
geoff
<bob.m...@excite.com> writes
Death by dyslexia
--
geoff
Spamlet
NT
Yes: and I've got a few more bits in the pipeline on this topic too, only it
is a little difficult to get it in clear laymanish terms.
S
Bernard Peek
>> pH does not really mean much in very concentrated chemical solutions: it is
>> intended for situations in which water is still abundant.
True. But the revised text still refers to Hydrochloric as the strongest
acid. That's true in that concentrated hydrochloric acid has a lower pH
than concentrated sulphuric or nitric. But both of those are far more
dangerous so in a colloquial sense they are stronger.
--
Bernard Peek
b...@shrdlu.com
Spamlet
I am endeavouring to explain in more detail elsewhere: briefly chemists'
Strong refers to complete ionisation whereas layman's strong is the same as
concentrated. The wiki needs to point out the difference. Concentrated
HCl, as others have noted, is not as concentrated as concentrated H2SO4,
because it is a relatively light gas and, after a certain conc it evaporates
as fast as you try to mix it in: the solution is saturated at a much lower
conc than can be achieved with sulphuric.
As chemicals, irrespective of their acidity (Strength) nitric and sulphuric
are powerful oxidising agents, and this is where additional dangers lie,
especially in their most concentrated forms.
To illustrate the point consider that *dilute* nitric acid dissolves iron
very readily: its H+ ions can move around freely in water and rush up to the
surface of the metal (as electricians know, metals are to most intents and
purposes just big sources of readily available electrons) where they take
an electron each, and join in pairs to bubble off as hydrogen gas. Various
ions of iron (Ferrous; Ferric) are possible but let us just say that iron
ions take the place of the H+ ions to make the solution balance again:
dilute nitric is thus a very good dissolver of iron.
Conc ('fuming') nitric is a whole different ball game and should only really
be used in a fume cupboard with care, but if you were to try dropping an
iron nail into a beaker of it, you would be in for a surprise. Generally,
the nail just darkens a little. HNO3 is such a powerful oxidising agent
that H+ does not get a look in, instead a coat of oxide forms evenly over
the metal and protects it from further attack: it is said to be passivated.
This is a similar effect to that used in the more complex process of
anodising aluminium - in diluted (~15%) sulphuric acid assisted with an
electric current. I have passivated odd bits of iron in this way before,
but the coating is not very tough so I would not recommend it for general
rust prevention! (Commercial rust preventing solutions tend to use various
mixtures of phosphoric acids for this.)
So the point is that chemicals all have their own unique properties, that
may vary with their concentrations, in addition to properties they may have
in common. Being a Strong Acid is just one property. Sometimes
concentration is good: sugar above 65% concentration is a preservative: but
if you ate a lot of it, it would be bad for you. Horses for courses.
S
Tabby
==Precautions==
Most acids are high risk chemicals. Several precautions are advisable
with many acids. These don't all apply to vinegar & citric acid.
* Due to the potentially high risk involved, labels should be read and
advice followed
* When diluting, never add water to acid, always add acid to water.
Doing so is sometimes highly exothermic, and should be done a bit at a
time, wearing safety specs. If done the wrong way the result can even
progress to explosion sometimes. Exploding boiling acid is not an
essential nutrient.
* Some acids used in DIY eat through skin rapidly. Wear suitable
gloves
* When holding hold the bottle by the label area, so any unnoticed
runs are on the same side, and that's not where you're holding it.
* Don't mix acid with bleach, the resulting chlorine is quite toxic.
* Don't mix acid with alkalis, excess heat is generated, and boiling
spitting acid isn't a good idea.
* Some acids plus metal can generate hydrogen, which is explosive
above 4% concentration.
* Suitable gloves & eye protection are sensible for some of the acids.
* In case of skin contact with all but the mild acids, wash for 10
minutes to minimise burning, chemical reaction & contamination. In
case of eye contact, wash for at least 10 minutes and seek medical
help promptly.
==Sulphuric Acid==
[[image:H2SO4 98% 4170-3.JPG|right|200px]]
A strong acid, sulphuric acid has many names, including vitriol,
* A strong acid
* Also known as spirits of salt, muriatic acid
Uses
* Eats cement & lime
* Cleans cement off bricks etc - but not off cement products
* Can also be used to descale ceramics, but it can discolour otherwise
unnoticeable surface cracking
* 18% hydrochoric acid is used industrially to clean steel before
coating ('pickling'). Spent pickling solution is sometimes then used
as ferrous chloride.
Risks
* Destroys cement joints in ceramic pipes
* 34% HCl produces choking fumes and mist
* HCl is highly corrosive to skin, eyes, lungs etc, and toxic.
Inhalation of too much of the fumes can cause death
* In case of skin contact, wash for 10-15 minutes. In case of eye
contact, wash for 10-15 minutes, lifting both upper & lower eyelids
regularly, and seek medical advice without delay.
* Incompatible with many substances
* [http://grover.mirc.gatech.edu/data/msds/50.html MSDS]
Purchase
* Sold as brick acid, drain unblocker, and is a component of many
patio cleaners.
* Available upto 34%
==Chromic Acid==
Not normally used by DIYers, but occasionally used for extreme ceramic
sink cleaning. Its exceptionally effective, but very toxic and should
be avoided.
* Can set fire to organic materials like paper and skin.
* Disposal creates serious problems
==Hydrofluoric acid==
Used to etch glass. A high risk acid that causes particularly bad
burns, but only used in tiny quantities in diy, typically in little
glass etching pens.
Also used in industrial horticulture to clean greenhouses.
Some synthetic rubber can produce HF when burnt, and occasionally
people have needed amputation after handling burnt car parts.
geoff
<a3ec6a40-6194-4a4f...@s9g2000yqd.googlegroups.com>,
Tabby <meow...@care2.com> writes
>Next version...
>
>
>
>==Hydrofluoric acid==
>Used to etch glass. A high risk acid that causes particularly bad
>burns, but only used in tiny quantities in diy, typically in little
>glass etching pens.
>
>Also used in industrial horticulture to clean greenhouses.
>
>Some synthetic rubber can produce HF when burnt, and occasionally
>people have needed amputation after handling burnt car parts.
>
I think you need to reassess the dangers of Hydrofluoric, it's not the
burns but what happens if it gets absorbed into the body which is
dangerous
I feel a crusade coming on here
--
geoff
Tabby
* Good for unblocking drains where the blockage is organic
* Density of 1.84 means it sinks to the bottom of blockages
* Lead acid batteries use pure sulphuric acid of around 4M. Less pure
Risks
* 34% HCl produces choking fumes and mist
* HCl is highly corrosive to skin, eyes, lungs etc, and toxic.
Inhalation of too much of the fumes can cause death
* In case of skin contact, wash for 10-15 minutes. In case of eye
contact, wash for 10-15 minutes, lifting both upper & lower eyelids
regularly, and seek medical advice without delay.
* Incompatible with many substances
* Destroys cement joints in ceramic pipes
* [http://grover.mirc.gatech.edu/data/msds/50.html MSDS]
Purchase
* Sold as brick acid, drain unblocker, and is a component of many
patio cleaners.
* Available upto 34%
==Chromic Acid==
Not normally used by DIYers, but occasionally used for extreme ceramic
sink cleaning. Its exceptionally effective, but very toxic and should
be avoided entirely.
* Can set fire to organic materials like paper and skin.
* Disposal creates serious problems
==Hydrofluoric acid==
A high risk acid that causes particularly bad burns, life threatening
poisoning on contact and extreme pain
* Only used in tiny quantities in diy, typically in little glass
etching pens.
Uses:
* Used to etch glass.
* Also used in commerce to clean greenhouses.
Risks:
* Extremely corrosive
* A contact poison. Poisoning can occur readily through exposure of
skin or eyes, or when inhaled or swallowed.
* HF penetrates tissue more quickly than typical acids
* Symptoms of HF poisoning can be delayed
* HF interferes with nerve function, meaning that burns may not
initially be painful. Accidental exposures can go unnoticed, delaying
treatment and increasing the extent and seriousness of the injury.
* Once absorbed into blood through the skin, it reacts with blood
calcium and may cause cardiac arrest. Burns with areas larger than 25
square inches (160 cm2) have the potential to cause serious systemic
toxicity from interference with blood and tissue calcium levels.
* Poisoning causes severe pain
* HF chemical burns can be treated with a water wash and 2.5% calcium
gluconate gel or special rinsing solutions.
* In case of skin contact, medical treatment is necessary, rinsing off
is not enough. In some cases, amputation may be required.
* Hydrogen fluoride is generated by burning fluorine-containing
compounds such as some synthetic rubber, Viton,
polytetrafluoroethylene (Teflon)
* Occasionally people have needed amputation after handling burnt car
parts.
==Sulphamic Acid==
Also known as sulfamic acid, amidosulfonic acid, amidosulfuric acid,
aminosulfonic acid, and sulfamidic acid
Uses
* Used to descale heat exchangers in heating systems
* Descale and clean metals and ceramics
* A component in some household descalers & denture tablets
Risks
* Lower risk than hydrochloric & sulphuric acids
* Solubility in water is moderate, limiting solution strength
Spamlet
> Thanks for everyone's feedback. I've addressed what I can, and here's
> the next version...
>
> NT
>
>
> ==Precautions==
> Most acids are high risk chemicals. Several precautions are advisable
> with many acids. These don't all apply to vinegar & citric acid.
Most acids are not high risk chemicals - many of them are essential in our
food, many are vital parts of ourselves eg DNA, and some are vitamins eg
vitamin C. However, those acids that are of
particular use in the D-I-Y realm are often chosen *specifically for* their
powerful and therefore potentially dangerous properties.
Vinegar is not an acid just the name of one solution of an acid - it just
means sour wine -, it is a dilute solution of Acetic Acid. Though not by
definition a Strong Acid, *concentrated* AKA 'Glacial' acetic acid is nasty
stuff in its own right.
You need to point out the difference between Strong Acids and strong
solutions: A Strong Acid - sulphuric, nitric, hydrochloric, - is one that is
fully ionised in water, making high concentrations of H+ ions available for
reaction. A 'Weak' Acid - like acetic or citric - is one that is not fully
ionised in water, and so cannot make so many H+ ions available for reaction.
The fact that something is a Weak Acid when dissolved in water, does not
mean that a concentrated solution of it is not dangerous irrespective of its
acidity. Many silicone sealants have quite concentrated acetic acid in them
and they can burn you, even though this is not a Strong Acid.
> * Due to the potentially high risk involved, labels should be read and
> advice followed
> * When diluting, never add water to acid, always add acid to water.
Stirring carefully as you do so, so as to avoid over-concentration in one
spot: this could have the same effect as pouring water into the acid. (And
the same is also especially true with solid alkalis like Caustic Soda.)
> Doing so is sometimes highly exothermic, and should be done a bit at a
> time, wearing safety specs. If done the wrong way the result can even
> progress to explosion sometimes. Exploding boiling acid is not an
> essential nutrient.
If you are using any concentrated acid wear a full face visor.
> * Some acids used in DIY can eat through skin rapidly. Wear suitable
> gloves
Checking for holes by inflating them and holding under water first.
> * When holding hold the bottle by the label area, so any unnoticed
> runs are on the same side, and that's not where you're holding it.
Wash the bottle down under the tap after you have resealed it.
Before holding, you have to get it to where you are holding it...
*When carrying acid containers, hold them away from
your body, preferably in a metal, or strong plastic carrier like the old
milkmen used to use. If you hold a typical 3 litre Winchester of sulphuric
acid against your chest as you walk with it, and someone walks into you, or
it simply breaks (I have had some 'safety' bottles where the glass was wafer
thin in places.) it may kill you, and seriously injure others around you.
*If your acid comes in a plastic container (same goes for alkalis), do not
leave the container out in sunlight, and if there is more than one
container, use the oldest first. It is both embarrassing and dangerous to
find that a plastic container disintegrates when you go to pick it up,
because it has been exposed to sunlight for too long. If you go to pick up
acids that are stored outside at a suppliers, only go for those that have
new unweathered labels: if they have had a run on their stock, the
containers at the back, that you are left with may have been out for some
time [Yes, it has happened to me.]
* Similarly, store your acids on the ground, on a surface that cannot get
harmed by any leaks: if they were delivered inside a protective plastic
drum, keep them in the drum.
> * Don't mix acid with bleach, the resulting chlorine is quite toxic.
The resultant chlorine is very toxic, and may kill you, especially so if you
are an asthmatic.
> * Don't mix acid with alkalis, excess heat is generated, and boiling
> spitting acid isn't a good idea.
*Don't mix concentrated solutions of acids and alkalis, and don't mix more
dilute solutions, without careful stirring
and waiting for any heat to be dissipated. You would normally only be doing
this in order to render both solutions relatively safe by turning them into
solutions of neutral salts. The Strengths of solutions of acids and alkalis
are established by titrating the unknown with a standard solution of the
known, and there is not usually much heat involved.
*Do keep handy a quantity of a suitable neutralising agent to apply should
you or your clothes come into contact with
acids. Generally a dilute solution of bicarbonate of soda or washing soda,
will prove effective, but specific acids such as hydrofluoric, or
fluorosilicic - neither of which the DIYer should have anything to do with -
require special chemicals kept in emergency stations. There should also be
emergency eyewash kits to hand. (Similarly, with alkalis, it pays to have
some dilute citric or lemon juice to hand to apply to any that gets on your
skin: this also works for hands made 'slippery' with bleach.). If handling
large volumes, have a shower or garden hose handy to drench yourself with.
> * Some acids plus metal can generate hydrogen, which is explosive
> above 4% concentration.
In air.
> * Suitable gloves & eye protection are sensible for some of the acids.
Full face protection with a visor is preferable. You don't want to get
specks on your face or hair that then get into your eye, even with the less
dangerous acids.
> * In case of skin contact with all but the mild acids, wash for 10
> minutes to minimise burning, chemical reaction & contamination. In
> case of eye contact, wash for at least 10 minutes and seek medical
> help promptly.
See above: wash; neutralise: then wash again.
>
> ==Sulphuric Acid==
> [[image:H2SO4 98% 4170-3.JPG|right|200px]]
> Sulphuric acid has many names, including vitriol, glover acid, tower
> acid, fertiliser acid, chamber acid, battery acid, dipping acid,
> mattling acid, electrolyte acid.
>
> Uses
> * Eats organic materials rapidly. Eats paper etc in seconds.
Conc Sulphuric may set fire to these (particularly, don't pour it on
sugar...)
> * Good for drains where the blockage is organic
I would say NOT very good for drains: it will dissolve the cement holding
the pipes together.
Caustic soda solutions will dissolve most organic material that is likely to
be
in your drain, and they will not harm any iron or masonry parts.
(Well, within reason: caustic solutions do slowly attack glass and hence
glazed pipes, but you are not going to be using it enough to do any damage
we hope.)
> * Density of 1.84 means it sinks to the bottom of blockages
Density of 1.84 means it is 1.84 times as heavy as the same volume of water.
It is also viscous, and like a thick bleach will adhere for longer to a
blocking material, but in the small volume of water present this may be
dangerous.
> * Lead acid batteries use high purity sulphuric acid of around 4M.
'4M' no need to get into molarity, say 30%
Do not hold such a battery against yourself and always wash it down after
filling and putting the caps back on. Similarly wash it down after charging
away from the vehicle. Always wear old synthetic clothes, and wash them
afterwards.
> Less pure drain cleaning acid is not usable for batteries.
> * Strong desiccant
But few DIYers will be in a position to use it as such, and it would attack
most things they wanted to dry.
> * Reaction with sugar produces carbon
> * Reaction of hot concentrated H2SO4 with copper produces copper
> sulphate, a mould inhibiting antimicrobial.
Better to put *hot copper* in *dilute* sulphuric acid. That is how we
cleaned
copper after annealing it at school, and at the end of term there were
always nice big crystals to wow over.
NO DIYer should be *anywhere near* hot concentrated sulphuric acid: I
wouldn't, without a fume cupboard on full extract with the glass safely
down. This is SERIOUSLY dangerous stuff!
> * Reaction with zinc produces zinc sulphate, a mould inhibiting
> antimicrobial.
> * Used industrially to remove rust
? Who by? It might be used to dissolve iron oxides to make ferrous
solutions, but as it dissolves iron itself, it is not much use in the way
one normally thinks of rust removal.
>
> Risks
> * 98% sulphuric acid drain unblocker is probably the most dangerous of
> the acids used in DIY. Put a drop on paper for a demo.
No: don't buy it in the first place.
> * Dangerous to skin & eyes
> * Destroys cement joints in ceramic pipes
> * Toxic
> * Concentrated sulphuric acid can react violently with water
> * In work situations all use of sulphuric acid must be assessed under
> the COSHH regulations.
> * [http://msds.chem.ox.ac.uk/SU/sulfuric_acid_concentrated.html MSDS]
>
> Purchase
> * Upto 98% sulphuric acid is available as drain unblocker.
>
>
> ==Hydrochloric Acid==
> [[image:HCl 34% 4168-3.jpg|right|200px]]
> * The strongest of all the acids used in DIY
*Scientifically speaking* 'Strongest': Strong here referring to the
propensity for forming hydrogen H+ ions in water.
> * Also known as spirits of salt, muriatic acid
>
> Uses
> * Eats cement & lime
> * Cleans cement off bricks etc - but not off cement products
> * Can also be used to descale ceramics, but it can discolour otherwise
> unnoticeable surface cracking
> * 18% hydrochloric acid is used industrially to clean steel before
> coating ('pickling'). Spent pickling solution is sometimes then used
> as ferrous chloride.
>
> Risks
> * Destroys cement joints in ceramic pipes
> * 34% HCl produces choking fumes and mist
> * HCl is highly corrosive to skin, eyes, lungs etc, and toxic.
> Inhalation of too much of the fumes can cause death
> * In case of skin contact, wash for 10-15 minutes. In case of eye
> contact, wash for 10-15 minutes, lifting both upper & lower eyelids
> regularly, and seek medical advice without delay.
> * Incompatible with many substances
> * [http://grover.mirc.gatech.edu/data/msds/50.html MSDS]
>
Get a proper eye wash station and have neutralising solutions handy.
> Purchase
> * Sold as brick acid, drain unblocker, and is a component of many
> patio cleaners.
> * Available upto 34%
>
>
> ==Chromic Acid==
> Not often used by DIYers, but occasionally used for extreme ceramic
> sink cleaning. Its exceptionally effective, but very toxic and not
> recommended.
DIYers should NEVER use this stuff, especially not for cleaning sinks, the
washings contaminate the effluent and the treated sewage sludge then
contaminates the land on which it is spread and your food is grown!
> * Can set fire to organic materials like paper and skin.
>
>
> ==Hydroflouric acid==
> Used to etch glass. A high risk acid that causes particularly bad
> burns, but only used in tiny quantities in diy, typically in little
> glass etching pens.
Get a vibrating tungsten scribe if you want to mark glass.
>
> Also used in industrial horticulture to clean greenhouses.
Never touch it: others have given good quotes as to why.
>
> ==Sulphamic Acid==
> Also known as sulfamic acid, amidosulfonic acid, amidosulfuric acid,
> aminosulfonic acid, and sulfamidic acid
>
> Uses
> * Used to descale heat exchangers in heating systems
> * Descale and clean metals and ceramics
> * A component in some household descalers & denture tablets
>
> Risks
> * Lower risk than hydrochloric acid
>
> Purchase
> * Fernox DS-3 contains sulphamic acid, inhibitors, indicators &
> surfactant.
>
>
> ==Phosphoric Acid==
> Uses
> * Used as rust remover. Turns rust into a stable black ferric
> phosphate. Often used as a gel preparation to enable it to cling to
> surfaces at all angles.
> * Phosphoric acid is used as a food additive, E338.
With lead it forms a sweet substance which made lead containing drinking
vessels popular with the Romans, poisoning them in the process. For the
same reasons one shouldn't drink cider from a pewter tankard.
>
> Risks
> * Acetic acid is corrosive, and at high strengths highly flammable.
> * Overexposure to the fumes can cause difficulty breathing. This can
> easily happen at room temperature.
> * Consequences of exposure can be delayed for a few hours.
> * Fumes above 39C can be explosive
> * Latex gloves don't protect against acetic acid, use nitrile ruber
> gloves.
> * [http://www.inchem.org/documents/icsc/icsc/eics0363.htm Safety info]
>
>
> ==Citric Acid==
> * A weak edible acid
>
> Uses
> * Citric acid is a widely used food additive, E330
> * Descaler for appliances that can't take more effective acids, eg
> kettles, washing machines etc.
> * 2% citric acid makes a handy scale tackling bathroom cleaner. 6% can
> remove scale without rubbing
I use 20% with a dash of washup liquid as a bathroom spray cleaner. I think
2% may be expecting a bit much.
> Salt enhances the descaling action of citric to an extent.
> * Appliance descalers in supermarkets are usually citric acid based,
> with or without another acid and corrosion inhibitor. Not a cheap way
> to buy the stuff.
Stainless steel swarf scourers can be put in kettles to collect the scale,
which you can then rub off between your hands under the tap. No need to
have scale on the kettle element in the first place.
The Medway Handyman
<SNIP>
>> ==Sulphuric Acid==
>> [[image:H2SO4 98% 4170-3.JPG|right|200px]]
>> Sulphuric acid has many names, including vitriol, glover acid, tower
>> acid, fertiliser acid, chamber acid, battery acid, dipping acid,
>> mattling acid, electrolyte acid.
>>
>> Uses
>> * Eats organic materials rapidly. Eats paper etc in seconds.
>
> Conc Sulphuric may set fire to these (particularly, don't pour it on
> sugar...)
>
>> * Good for drains where the blockage is organic
>
> I would say NOT very good for drains: it will dissolve the cement
> holding the pipes together.
> Caustic soda solutions will dissolve most organic material that is
> likely to be
> in your drain, and they will not harm any iron or masonry parts.
> (Well, within reason: caustic solutions do slowly attack glass and
> hence glazed pipes, but you are not going to be using it enough to do
> any damage we hope.)
From experience One Shot (91% Sulphuric w/w) works where Caustic Soda fails
misreably. Someone once told me that 80% of toilet blockages are paper
based & caustic isn't very good at that, better at fatty deposits.
<SNIP>
>
> No: don't buy it in the first place.
>
>> * Dangerous to skin & eyes
>> * Destroys cement joints in ceramic pipes
>> * Toxic
>> * Concentrated sulphuric acid can react violently with water
>> * In work situations all use of sulphuric acid must be assessed under
>> the COSHH regulations.
>> * [http://msds.chem.ox.ac.uk/SU/sulfuric_acid_concentrated.html MSDS]
>
>
>>
>> Also used in industrial horticulture to clean greenhouses.
>
> Never touch it: others have given good quotes as to why.
Its exceptionally effective albeit something I treat with great respect. I
don't doubt its as dangerous as you say, you are obviously knowledgeable
about the subject. How come the safety fairies allow it to be sold though?
Even B&Q sell it!
--
Dave - The Medway Handyman
www.medwayhandyman.co.uk
Spamlet
"The Medway Handyman" <davi...@no-spam-blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in message
news:FYY9o.47514$ss1.41352@hurricane...
Not sure whether you are referring to sulphuric or hydrofluoric here Dave.
I would have hoped that B&Q wouldn't be selling any HF. In an older lab I
first worked in, there were bottles of HF among the other common lab bench
solutions, and indeed some of the 'old boys' did use it for labelling some
bottles, and for bringing out the crystal structure of aluminium plate, but
I doubt that you would find many labs like that nowadays. Later, I used to
have to use the slightly less nasty fluorosilicic acid as an ingredient in
an anodised aluminium sealing process solution. It came in small plastic
dropping bottles inside protective plastic drums, and was always kept and
used in a fume cupboard, which had a integral sink for washing any drips
away immediately. And I was still scared of the stuff. (I was,
incidentally, the safety officer: though I probably wouldn't know enough to
pass for one nowadays..)
I did, for a time keep a small bottle of conc sulphuric in the garage -
mainly to save the hassle of having bigger bottles of different
concentrations, when I was experimenting with anodising (can't really get
enough amps for this at home). But even kept inside a plastic drum, it
still managed to attract in water, and the outside of the bottle was always
sticky with it. It really isn't something you should have in the home.
Drains are nearly always much quicker to take apart and clean by hand - with
shoulder length rubber gloves if necessary - than with chemicals. In many
cases it is the household chemicals like washing powder, that have caused
the blockage, I usually find the garden hose clears most things, and in
sinks and u bends it is usually hair that is the problem and this dissolves
in caustic soda.
Another thing I noticed yesterday is that the lever pop-up plug in our
bathroom basin had an alloy thread with a brass nut on the end as an
adjuster. Now all that is left is the nut and it doesn't pop up any more.
And all I've used in the basin is an occasional squirt of citric, and
occasional bleach.
S
Tabby
B&Q selling HF? What's the product name?
NT
Tabby
==Precautions==
Most acids used in DIY are high risk chemicals. Several precautions
are advisable with many acids. These don't all apply to vinegar &
citric acid.
* Due to the potentially high risk involved, labels should be read and
advice followed
* When diluting, never add water to acid, always add acid to water,
and stir promptly. Diluting is sometimes highly exothermic, and should
be done a bit at a time, wearing safety specs and stopping if it gets
hot. If done the wrong way (putting water into acid) the result can
even progress to explosion sometimes. Exploding boiling acid is not an
essential nutrient.
* Never mix concentrated acid with alkali, or acid with concentrated
alkali.
* If you mix dilute acid and alkali (to render them safe enough for
disposal), do so gradually, stirring, and stop if it gets hot.
* Some acids used in DIY eat through skin rapidly. Wear suitable
gloves
* When holding the bottle, do so by the label area, so any unnoticed
runs are on the back where you're not holding it. Rinsing the bottle
exterior after use is a good precaution with hostile acids.
* Don't mix acid with bleach, the resulting chlorine is toxic enough
to kill.
* Don't mix acid with alkalis, excess heat is generated, and boiling
spitting acid isn't a good idea.
* Some acids plus metal can generate hydrogen, which is explosive
above 4% concentration.
* Suitable gloves & eye protection are sensible for some of the acids.
Gloves can be inflated and put under water to check for holes, wise if
you're handling the nastier acids.
* Full face visor should be used for the more hostile acids, and is a
good thing for other acids.
* In case of skin contact with all but the mild acids, wash for 10
minutes to minimise burning, chemical reaction & contamination. In
case of eye contact, wash for at least 10 minutes and seek medical
help promptly. Use the correct neutraliser for HF.
* Have a suitable neutraliser available.
** For small amounts this can be baking soda or washing soda
** When handling bulk acids a garden hose is more effective.
** For hydroluoric acid, specific neutralisers are needed
* Have eyewash equipment available. If you need to use it, time is
pretty important.
* When carrying bulk acid or hostile acids, hold them in a sturdy
container away from you. This avoids you getting drenched and maybe
killed if you drop the container or it breaks.
* Plastic bottles can degrade over time. Keep out of sunlight, and use
the older ones first. When buying, plastic containers with weathered
looking labels might have been sitting out in the sun for years.
* Store powerful acids at floor level to reduce risk of breakage.
==Sulphuric Acid==
[[image:H2SO4 98% 4170-3.JPG|right|200px]]
A strong acid, sulphuric acid has many names, including vitriol,
glover acid, tower acid, fertiliser acid, chamber acid, battery acid,
dipping acid, mattling acid, electrolyte acid.
Uses
* Eats organic materials rapidly. Eats paper etc in seconds.
* Good for unblocking drains where the blockage is organic
* Rapidly eats the paper content in toilet blockages, which caustic
soda doesn't.
* Density of 1.84 means it sinks to the bottom of blockages.
* Lead acid batteries use pure sulphuric acid of around 4M or 30%.
Less pure drain cleaning acid is not usable for batteries.
* Strong desiccant, but attacks most materials people want to dry
* Reaction with sugar produces carbon
* Demos of conc sulphuric burning paper, sugar etc can catch fire,
boil, and spit acid
* Reaction of dilute H2SO4 with hot copper produces copper sulphate, a
mould inhibiting antimicrobial.
* Reaction with zinc produces zinc sulphate, a mould inhibiting
antimicrobial.
Risks
* 98% sulphuric acid drain unblocker is probably the most dangerous of
the acids used in DIY. Put a drop on paper for a demo.
* Dangerous to skin & eyes
* Destroys cement joints in ceramic pipes
* Toxic
* Concentrated sulphuric acid can react violently with water
* In work situations all use of sulphuric acid must be assessed under
the COSHH regulations.
* Take proper care to keep sulphuric away from kids, the results can
be nasty
* Wipe down batteries after filling them with acid
* Best wear clothing of little value when handling lead acid
batteries.
* Don't heat concentrated sulphuric acid, the risks increase
excessively
* [http://msds.chem.ox.ac.uk/SU/sulfuric_acid_concentrated.html MSDS]
Purchase
* Upto 98% sulphuric acid is available as drain unblocker.
==Hydrochloric Acid==
[[image:HCl 34% 4168-3.jpg|right|200px]]
* A strong acid
* Also known as spirits of salt, muriatic acid
Uses
* Eats cement & lime
* Cleans cement off bricks etc - but not off cement products
* Can also be used to descale ceramics, but it can discolour otherwise
unnoticeable surface cracking
* 18% hydrochoric acid is used industrially to clean steel before
coating ('pickling'). Spent pickling solution is sometimes then used
as ferrous chloride.
Risks
* 34% HCl produces choking fumes and mist
* HCl is highly corrosive to skin, eyes, lungs etc, and toxic.
Inhalation of too much of the fumes can cause death
* In case of skin contact, wash for 10-15 minutes. In case of eye
contact, wash for 10-15 minutes, lifting both upper & lower eyelids
regularly, and seek medical advice without delay.
* Incompatible with many substances
* Destroys cement joints in ceramic pipes
* [http://grover.mirc.gatech.edu/data/msds/50.html MSDS]
Purchase
* Sold as brick acid, drain unblocker, and is a component of many
patio cleaners.
* Available upto 34%
==Chromic Acid==
Not normally used by DIYers, but occasionally used for extreme ceramic
sink cleaning. Its exceptionally effective, but very toxic and should
be avoided entirely.
* Can set fire to organic materials like paper and skin.
* Disposal creates serious problems, contaminating land and food
crops.
==Hydrofluoric acid==
A high risk acid that causes particularly bad burns, life threatening
poisoning on contact and extreme pain
* Only used in tiny quantities in diy, typically in little glass
etching pens.
Uses:
* Used to etch glass. A vibrating scribe or [[die grinder]] are safer
methods.
* Also used in commerce to clean greenhouses, but don't.
Risks:
* Extremely corrosive
* A contact poison. Poisoning can occur readily through exposure of
skin or eyes, or when inhaled or swallowed.
* HF penetrates tissue more quickly than typical acids
* Symptoms of HF poisoning can be delayed
* HF interferes with nerve function, meaning that burns may not
initially be painful. Accidental exposures can go unnoticed, delaying
treatment and increasing the extent and seriousness of the injury.
* Once absorbed into blood through the skin, it reacts with blood
calcium and may cause cardiac arrest. Burns with areas larger than 25
square inches (160 cm2) have the potential to cause serious systemic
toxicity from interference with blood and tissue calcium levels.
* Poisoning causes severe pain
* HF chemical burns can be treated with a water wash and 2.5% calcium
gluconate gel or special rinsing solutions.
* In case of skin contact, medical treatment is necessary, rinsing off
is not enough. In some cases, amputation may be required.
* Hydrogen fluoride is generated by burning fluorine-containing
compounds such as some synthetic rubber, Viton,
polytetrafluoroethylene (Teflon)
* Occasionally people have needed amputation after handling burnt car
parts.
==Sulphamic Acid==
Also known as sulfamic acid, amidosulfonic acid, amidosulfuric acid,
aminosulfonic acid, and sulfamidic acid
Uses
* Used to descale heat exchangers in heating systems
* Descale and clean metals and ceramics
* A component in some household descalers & denture tablets
Risks
* Lower risk than hydrochloric & sulphuric acids
* Solubility in water is moderate, limiting solution strength
Purchase
* Fernox DS-3 contains sulphamic acid, inhibitors, indicators &
surfactant.
==Phospohoric Acid==
Uses
* Used as rust remover. Turns rust into a stable black ferric
phosphate. Often used as a gel preparation to enable it to cling to
surfaces at all angles.
* Phospohoric acid is used as a food additive, E338.
Risks
* Acetic acid is corrosive, and at high strengths highly flammable.
* Overexposure to the fumes can cause difficulty breathing. This can
easily happen at room temperature.
* Consequences of exposure can be delayed for a few hours.
* Fumes above 39C can be explosive
* Latex gloves don't protect against acetic acid, use nitrile ruber
gloves.
* THe acetic acid in most silicone sealant can sometimes cause mild
burns if left on the skin.
* [http://www.inchem.org/documents/icsc/icsc/eics0363.htm Safety info]
==Citric Acid==
* A weak edible acid
Uses
* Citric acid is a widely used food additive, E330
* Descaler for appliances that can't take more effective acids, eg
kettles, washing machines etc.
* 6% can remove scale without rubbing
* Salt enhances the descaling action of citric to an extent.
* People use anything from 2%-20% as a scale tackling bathroom
cleaner.
* Appliance descalers in supermarkets are usually citric acid based,
with or without another acid and corrosion inhibitor. Not a cheap way
to buy the stuff.
** A stainless steel swarf scourer in a kettle prevents limescale, and
is easier to use
geoff
<a343788d-0a55-43d3...@j8g2000yqd.googlegroups.com>,
Tabby <meow...@care2.com> writes
>More input incorporated, thanks primarily to Spamlet....
>
Getting closer
>
>
>==Sulphamic Acid==
>Also known as sulfamic acid, amidosulfonic acid, amidosulfuric acid,
>aminosulfonic acid, and sulfamidic acid
>
>Uses
>* Used to descale heat exchangers in heating systems
>* Descale and clean metals and ceramics
>* A component in some household descalers & denture tablets
>
>Risks
>* Lower risk than hydrochloric & sulphuric acids
>* Solubility in water is moderate, limiting solution strength
>
>Purchase
>* Fernox DS-3 contains sulphamic acid, inhibitors, indicators &
>surfactant.
>
>
>==Phospohoric Acid==
>Uses
>* Used as rust remover. Turns rust into a stable black ferric
>phosphate. Often used as a gel preparation to enable it to cling to
>surfaces at all angles.
>* Phospohoric acid is used as a food additive, E338.
>* Sometimes used to remove limescale and cement stains.
>* Sometimes used as a soldering flux
>* Used commercially as a nutrient for irrigated glasshouse crops
>
Also used for descaling heat exchangers
e.g. http://www.kamco.co.uk/FX2.htm
(FosforiX )
as is HCl
which Kamco sell as HD (HyDrochloric)
phosphoric acid is also dangerous in the same way as HF, it attacks the
bones, but its effect is less pronounced
--
geoff
Spamlet
> More input incorporated, thanks primarily to Spamlet....
>
>
> ==Precautions==
> Most acids used in DIY are high risk chemicals. Several precautions
> are advisable with many acids. These don't all apply to vinegar &
> citric acid.
> * Due to the potentially high risk involved, labels should be read and
> advice followed
> * When diluting, never add water to acid, always add acid to water,
> and stir promptly.
Not promptly: continuously. Decant the quantity of acid you want to use,
ideally into a measuring beaker or jug of pyrex or polythene. Then pour
from the jug or beaker carefully into the larger volume of water stirring
all the time with a glass rod or polythene spoon or spatula. Wash the
utensils immediately in a good volume of water nearby so that you do not put
them down and leave a pool of acid to stick your elbow in later. If you
wear clothes you will soon appreciate why.
Store them in double containment. Many smaller quantities will come in
their own unbreakable outer plastic drum (very handy afterwards for things
like stone polishing but I digress). If yours doesn't, cut the top off a
suitable polythene container and stand the bottle in that. Then if you do
happen to kick or drop something on it, your acid is still contained, and it
won't swoosh across the floor and set fire to your car, lawnmower, shoes,
etc.
No: wash down with a hose outside: you do not want any acid soaked rags
around. Put back in the car when it is dry.
> * Best wear clothing of little value when handling lead acid
> batteries.
> * Don't heat concentrated sulphuric acid, the risks increase
> excessively
Every 10C rise in temperature approximately doubles the rate of a chemical
reaction: thus boiling H2SO4 *BP337C* is unspeakably dangerous!
[Really we should be leaving all this to the real Wiki people:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battery_acid]
Spamlet
"Spamlet" <spam.m...@invalid.invalid> wrote in message
news:i49vo7$btv$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
Incidentally, while wee are on the subject: I have got an interesting paper
on the uses of urine somewhere...
S
>
>
Spamlet
"geoff" <tr...@uk-diy.org> wrote in message
news:uPND5Rdx...@demon.co.uk...
A bit late now, but I'm interested to read this.
I once had a Chevette catch fire when a tissue got caught on the exhaust
manifold. Unfortunately the first thing to burn through was the bonnet
catch so even when I had begged a fire extinguisher from a nearby shop I
still couldn't get at the fire, until it dawned on me I could spray it from
below. Brave, but stupid, with melted battery and rubber dripping down all
over the place. It did take a long time for my hands to heal, perhaps, now
I know why. At the time I had visions of the big explosions one sees on TV,
so was in a bit of a hurry to put it out. The fire brigade arrived just as
I'd finished putting it out, but wrenched up the bonnet and gave it a good
squirt anyway.
S
Is it? The real Wiki:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phosphoric_acid#Biological_effects_on_bone_calcium_and_kidney_health
Only reports on inconclusive tests of people drinking loads of Coke and
Pepsi, which is not quite in the danger league. However, conc phosphoric
acid in its various forms is still not to be toyed with.
We really should give the 'real Wiki' link for each acid: they are very
good.
S
>
> --
> geoff
Tabby
> "Spamlet" <spam.mores...@invalid.invalid> wrote in message
> Incidentally, while wee are on the subject: I have got an interesting paper
> on the uses of urine somewhere...
>
> S
lol, could make a novel wiki article. Or would that be taking the
wiki?
Why not start a thread for it,cleaning is just about within diy.
NT
stuart noble
Cleaning is well within d-i-y, but only in the sense that it's useful to
know that kettle descaler can be used for things other than kettles. In
depth detail as to how you might kill yourself with hydrofluoric serves
no purpose IMO.
The Medway Handyman
Sorry, should have snipped a bit more!
I meant sulphuric.
--
Dave - The Medway Handyman
The Medway Handyman
Sorry, should have snipped a bit more!
I meant sulphuric.
Spamlet
> Huge wrote:
>> On 2010-08-13, The Medway Handyman
>> <davi...@no-spam-blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
>>> Tabby wrote:
>>>> Feedback welcome...
>>>>
>>>> NT
>>>>
>>>
>>> Would a simple explanation of the ph scale help?
>>
>> you meant simpler than that.
>
> Much simpler than that :-)
>
> Most people have no idea of the difference between acid & alkali. Nor
> that the scale is logrithmic IIUIC.
>
> When I sold pressure washers & demonstrated with detergents of ph 13
> punters would often ask if it was "a acid that burned the dirt off".
Some of the confusion comes from the way we tend to label acids as
'corrosive: causes burns', and alkalis as 'caustic: causes burns'...
The negative log gets you a nice round figure for one particular ion instead
of having to quote for H+ *&* OH-, but it is by no means an easy concept to
explain.
Let's have a go...
You could just say that: "Extremes of acidity or alkalinity are highly
reactive and can cause serious burns": but how to indicate just how reactive
they are? A useful way to make a scale of reactivity is to imagine a series
of concentrations where each step is ten times stronger than the last. Such
is the pH scale.
[You can think, similarly when you are heating solutions: a 10C rise in
temperature approximately doubles the rate of reaction.]
The 'H' in pH stands for hydrogen ion (H+). Positive ions like H+, are
reactive atoms from which an electron has been removed: this is what *makes*
them
reactive in solution: they 'want' to get their electrons back, from other
substances, to
become neutral again. The more concentrated these ions are, the more
strongly
they will be able to attract electrons back and the more vigorous the
reaction
will be. The pH scale *only* deals with the concentration of the H+ ion:
the concentration of the chemicals that will produce a solution of a
particular pH varies with the chemical, so speaking of Strong Acid, is not
the same as speaking of concentrated acid.
When the chemist says Strong acid, he means that it is a substance that
forms these H+ ions easily *in water*. Water is what is termed a 'polar'
solvent, because its molecules are arranged such that the O atom has a
bigger attraction for the molecule's electrons than the two H atoms. This
makes each molecule like a little magnet with slightly positive poles at the
H end, and slightly negative poles at the O end. This is what makes water
such a good solvent: its slightly charged molecules can surround ions like
H+ and keep them free in solution to make them available for chemical
reactions.
Each step in the pH scale from 7 down to 1 indicates a tenfold increase in
strength in the *acid* direction, with pH1 being ten million times as H+ ion
concentrated as pH7. Each step in the scale from pH7 up to pH14 indicates a
tenfold increase in the *alkaline* direction, with pH14 being ten million
times stronger than pH7. [This may seem an awkward way of looking at
things, but it saves having to have separate scales for H+ and its
counterpart, OH-. For the DIYer it might have been more intuitive to call
it a pOH scale, so then we would have a scale where the numbers went up with
the concentration instead of down, but we are stuck with it I'm afraid!]
The concentration of the H+ ion is not directly related to the concentration
of the acid that produces it. Weak acids with a capital W do not so readily
form H+ ions in water, and so can still have a moderate pH even when quite
concentrated. Solubility is also important: HCl is a gas that won't
dissolve in water to give highly concentrated solutions, whereas H2SO4 will
concentrate almost to treacle like consistency, and is so attracted to water
that the pure acid is only found in space. In concentrated form it is
extremely dangerous, but, because it is so lacking in the water the H+ ion
needs to become mobilised, the term pH is no longer much use to indicate
just how dangerous it is. Remember, the pH only refers to the concentration
of H+ : not of the acid itself.
We normally make solutions of chemicals with water as the solvent. Everyone
knows that the 'formula' of water is H2O, but if you want to imagine a bit
more about pH, it is better to think of it as 'HOH'. This is a neutral
structure in which the electrons are shared between the three atoms, though,
as above, the O attracts them more strongly than the H, so it could be said
to behave like a little magnet. Despite its general stability, in a volume
of water containing billions of these molecules, a small percentage break up
into ions: the H+ that we have already seen, has its counterpart in the
negative OH- ion. This ion still has the electron attached which has been
'lost' by H to make the H+ ion. So, in the case of the OH- ion, it wants to
'give away' or share its extra electron to become neutral again, and, as in
the case of H+, the more concentrated OH- becomes, the more strongly will be
reactions, as it seeks to share its extra electron to become neutral again.
The fact that water is thus slightly ionised itself allows us to quote a pH
for it even when nothing is dissolved in it.
As, in pure water, there are always the same number of H+ ions as OH- ions,
it is neutral over all, and should have a pH of 7 but will often be a little
lower in practice. Once acids or alkalis are dispersed in the water, the pH
changes dramatically as extra H+ or OH- ions are mobilised. Acids are, thus
chemicals which break up in water to greatly increase the proportion of H+
ions relative to OH- ions. Alkalis have the opposite effect: increasing the
concentration of OH- relative to H+.
Hope this gives a reasonable insight without having to go into the maths.
Wikipedia proper will give the full picture, for the mathematically
inclined:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PH
S
Mark
<usenet....@adslpipe.co.uk> wrote:
>stuart noble wrote:
>
>> Can't help thinking the whole thing is a non-starter in a d-i-y context
>
>Do schoolkids actually get to *do* chemistry thesedays,
Yes.
--
(\__/) M.
(='.'=) Due to the amount of spam posted via googlegroups and
(")_(") their inaction to the problem. I am blocking some articles
posted from there. If you wish your postings to be seen by
everyone you will need use a different method of posting.
chris...@removebundy.co.uk
tree felling etc.
I fancy a stihl but which model ?
new or second hand ?
To start with it will be used for 10 -20 hours therafter not a lot
I have a couple of acres
any one care to make a recommendation
help appreciated.
Chris
The Natural Philosopher
as big as it needs to be for the bole size you want to cut.
I prefer a little one. Easier to handle, but sometimes its not man enough.
>
>
> Chris
Michael Chare
news:csti769f3qlv67919...@4ax.com...
I bought a Stihl MS250 with a 16" bar for 'garden maintenance'.
It probably cost about what I would have had to pay to get some one to do
the work that I initially bought it for.
--
Michael Chare
Dave Osborne
http://chainsawspecialists.co.uk/
They only sell Husqvarna, but they respect "the German brand" (i.e.
Stihl). It's worth reading the "Advice & Info" stuff.
Steve Firth
> I have a need to buy a chainsaw for general garden maintenace, small
> tree felling etc.
>
> I fancy a stihl but which model ?
>
> new or second hand ?
>
> To start with it will be used for 10 -20 hours therafter not a lot
Stihl are indipensable if you have a large amount of land and use them
for long periods. They are well designed and built. If you want one, get
one that's an appropriate size for the job in hand. Too large means that
it's unwieldy and expensive and potentially dangerous. Too small is also
dangerous, that is don't attempt to cut anything that has a diameter
greater (or even close to) the length of your saw. If the tip of the saw
catches it can kick back and that's not a pleasant experience.
The Stihl MS170 is a really good choice for garden work. It has a 12in
blade and that's sufficient for most uses around a garden. It's *not*
suitable for felling large trees. About 9-10 inches is the maximum
diameter I would tackle with one.
If your use is occasional then I wouldn't sniff at the Husqvarna range.
I have one that has been used for pruning olive trees for the last ten
years - no problems with it so far. It cost just £90 so it's fine for
something that's used just once a year (although it's then used solidly
for a month and used to prune > 85 trees and to chop the branches for
firewood.)
tony sayer
<Dave...@SPAMymail.com> scribeth thus
Bought a 236e from them last year OK outfit to deal with ..
Recommended...
--
Tony Sayer
Spamlet
Why is this appearing under Wiki Acid?
S
Dave Osborne
Because this line appears in the headers:
References:
<4a0b9e0e-8b83-487d...@u26g2000yqu.googlegroups.com>
which is the message id for the first message in the Wiki:Acid thread.
Which in turn means that the OP effectively created a new thread by
replying to the Wiki:Acid thread and then changing the subject line and
not quoting anything previous. Either that or he *did* start a proper
new thread but his posting software got its knickers in a twist.
Spamlet
"Dave Osborne" <Dave...@SPAMymail.com> wrote in message
news:8e0ftn...@mid.individual.net...
Amazing that people are still finding and replying to it!
S
Andrew Mawson
Firstly you may have problems getting a Stihl dealer to sell you
anything without a Chain Saw certificate. I have a Stihl 023 which
I've had for years (14" bar) and have in the last year bought a couple
of Stihl 038 Farmbosses on ebay (18" bar). I like to have a carry bag
for the chain saws so everything stays together - a Stihl dealer
refused to sell me a bag without a certificate!!! Incidentally I have
legitimate grandfather rights to use one. Stihl saws are great - very
reliable, spares easily available and relatively easy to fix if things
go wrong. One of the 038s was a wreck, and I replaced the piston/
cylinder/oil pump , some anti vibration mounts and chain the catcher
and now it's a fantastic machine.
AWEM
Andy Dingley
<andrew@no_spam_please_mawson.org.uk> wrote:
> Firstly you may have problems getting a Stihl dealer to sell you
> anything without a Chain Saw certificate.
IMHE, you've got more trouble in buying one without getting the half-
hour lecture about how Stihl won't let them sell on-line, so now
they're losing that market to grey market resellers who don't care
about it. Stihl haven't stopped on-line sales, but they've certainly
alienated their dealers over this.
Grimly Curmudgeon
drugs began to take hold. I remember "Andrew Mawson"
<andrew@no_spam_please_mawson.org.uk> saying something like:
>Firstly you may have problems getting a Stihl dealer to sell you
>anything without a Chain Saw certificate. I have a Stihl 023 which
>I've had for years (14" bar) and have in the last year bought a couple
>of Stihl 038 Farmbosses on ebay (18" bar). I like to have a carry bag
>for the chain saws so everything stays together - a Stihl dealer
>refused to sell me a bag without a certificate!!!
Fcking ridiculous carry-on, iyam.
When did that come in?
Andy Dingley
wrote:
> >Firstly you may have problems getting a Stihl dealer to sell you
> >anything without a Chain Saw certificate.
> Fcking ridiculous carry-on, iyam.
> When did that come in?
No such requirement. There is (quite rightly) a restriction on top-
handle chainsaws (really only to be used at height anyway) and you
need to have a certificate of competence before buying one of those.
You may of course find a dealer that won't sell without a chit, but
that's just up to them.
Personally I'd support a certificate requirement for chainsaw bars
without a tip protector (anti kickback), including electrics.