making new copper look aged green

[ransley]

How do you get new copper to look naturaly aged green and stable,
Verdigris. I have used acids Hydrochloric, Hydroflouric, and find the
Verdigris is a top layer and sometimes bluer or darker green than
naturaly aged copper.

I have found Toilet bowl cleaner that has Hydrochloric acid is great
on old black copper gutters that wont fully turn green, as its already
buffered and gelled so it stays wet and doesnt drip on you as you
brush it on, and safer to use.

I have fumed copper in a heated tub but the results are darker and
more green than natural aging and the finish flakes off. I have heard
to sand and or heat the copper with a propane torch and that even Pee
is great, this I willl try next. There is a process to make copper
green and stable but I dont know it. Revere copper does it. Im on the
other side of the pond so excuse my terminology, this week will be
back to 0f degree, a bit cold.

[Andy Dingley]

On 26 Jan, 01:04, ransley <Mark_Rans...@Yahoo.com> wrote:
>   How do you get new copper to look naturaly aged green and stable,

You find a copy of "The Colouring, Bronzing, and Patination of Metals"
and then spend ages studying it.

Copper goes either brown(ish) or green(ish) with most reagents (so buy
some nitrate-based stuff). Much depends on the copper alloy, the
reagent (obviously) and the process (time / temperature / agitation)
you use to apply it. Getting nice colours is one thing, getting
consistent results, stable results or predictable results is quite
another. Japanese work uses the same reagent repeatedly and varies the
alloy instead. This is allegedly an easier route to reliable
consistency (although some of their alloys are arsenical and quite
toxic).

Avoid chlorides. That's not patina, it's corrosion - and it's very far
from stable or robust.

For simple results, buy a commercial bottle of Green Goop or Brown
Goop. You'll get better results than anything short of serious
investment in materials and techniques.

[ransley]

Nitrate base, do you mean plant fertilizer. Green Goop, Brown Goop,
what is in the products, I never heard of them in the US, I will try
google on the goop.

[Nige Danton]

On Mon, 25 Jan 2010 17:04:01 -0800 (PST), ransley
<Mark_R...@Yahoo.com> wrote:

> How do you get new copper to look naturaly aged green and stable,
>Verdigris. I have used acids Hydrochloric, Hydroflouric, and find the
>Verdigris is a top layer and sometimes bluer or darker green than
>naturaly aged copper.

You might somthing of interest here:

http://asuwlink.uwyo.edu/~metal/patinas.html

I've also tried fuming the copper in amonnia.
--
Nige Danton
email: swop the obvious for g_m_a_i_l

--- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: ne...@netfront.net ---

[Nige Danton]

On Tue, 26 Jan 2010 12:30:50 +0700, Nige Danton
<nige....@nospam.com> wrote:

Also maybe search rec.crafts.metalworking for more ideas and tips.

[Andy Dingley]

On 26 Jan, 05:30, Nige Danton <nige.dan...@nospam.com> wrote:

> I've also tried fuming the copper in amonnia.

Ammonia fuming is great, but it tends to give a mild "antique" patina,
rather than a deliberate verdigris. Works very well on brass. Didn't
we discuss that recently? The trick is to keep the metal out of the
liquid ammonia, otherwise it develops splotches. The usual method is a
big Tupperware box, with ammonia in the bottom, then a layer of wood
shavings, with the metal above.

[Andy Dingley]

On 26 Jan, 01:47, ransley <Mark_Rans...@Yahoo.com> wrote:

> Nitrate base, do you mean plant fertilizer.

No, I generally mean ferric nitrate, the base for a great many
patination recipes. Also nitric acid.

You're unlikely to get far "trying out brews with plant fertiliser".
In particular you'll find yourself with a weak mixture that acts very
slowly. This is a bad thing. In particular, you might think it looks
good but the stuff is so slow acting you don't realise it's still
working - a week later it has turned to ugly crud. This is
particularly a problem with chlorides. Washing and cleaning
afterwards, maybe even deliberate neutralising, can be as important as
the patination itself.

This looks like a decent online starting point
http://www.sciencecompany.com/patinas/patinaformulas.htm

Then of course there's Ganoksin for serious metalsmithing.
http://www.ganoksin.com/borisat/nenam/patina-formulas.htm

> Green Goop, Brown Goop what is in the products,

No idea. Many chemicals used in metal finishing (especially plating)
are obscure and difficult to find, then only used in small doses. It's
too awkward to buy your own, so you're better buying a ready-mixed
patination fluid. This still applies, even if you're an industrial
chemist (unless you can sneak through a 40 gallon drum of something
that you only need a teaspoon of).

Find your local finishing supplies people (Rustin or Liberon in the
UK) and check their catalogues. It does work better if you buy the
ready-mixed potions, then follow the recipes carefully.

[Mr Benn]

"ransley" <Mark_R...@Yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:4e566c2e-8bd9-42c6...@g1g2000yqi.googlegroups.com...

I have experience of this although unintentionally. I once kept a bottle of
concentrated hydrochloric acid under the kitchen sink. Over time, the cap
of the bottle degraded allowing hydrogen chloride gas to escape from the
bottle (the acid is basically this gas dissolved in water). All the copper
piping went green (copper chloride).

I suggest you get some concentrated hycrochloric acid (available from Robert
Dyas - sold as drain cleaner) and leave the copper item in a small chamber
with an open container of hydrochloric acid for a few days.

Warning: The gas is very harmful to your lungs and other moist membranes so
make sure you do this somewhere safe.

[pete]

Got any cow-pats nearby?

[Nige Danton]

Andy Dingley wrote:

> rather than a deliberate verdigris. Works very well on brass. Didn't
> we discuss that recently?

No... not me and I didn't see the thread.

[ransley]

On Jan 26, 4:46 am, Andy Dingley <ding...@codesmiths.com> wrote:
> On 26 Jan, 01:47, ransley <Mark_Rans...@Yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > Nitrate base, do you mean plant fertilizer.
>
> No, I generally mean ferric nitrate, the base for a great many
> patination recipes. Also nitric acid.
>
> You're unlikely to get far "trying out brews with plant fertiliser".
> In particular you'll find yourself with a weak mixture that acts very
> slowly. This is a bad thing. In particular, you might think it looks
> good but the stuff is so slow acting you don't realise it's still
> working - a week later it has turned to ugly crud. This is
> particularly a problem with chlorides. Washing and cleaning
> afterwards, maybe even deliberate neutralising, can be as important as
> the patination itself.
>

> This looks like a decent online starting pointhttp://www.sciencecompany.com/patinas/patinaformulas.htm
>
> Then of course there's Ganoksin for serious metalsmithing.http://www.ganoksin.com/borisat/nenam/patina-formulas.htm

>
> > Green Goop, Brown Goop what is in the products,
>
> No idea. Many chemicals used in metal finishing (especially plating)
> are obscure and difficult to find, then only used in small doses. It's
> too awkward to buy your own, so you're better buying a ready-mixed
> patination fluid. This still applies, even if you're an industrial
> chemist (unless you can sneak through a 40 gallon drum of something
> that you only need a teaspoon of).
>
> Find your local finishing supplies people (Rustin or Liberon in the
> UK) and check their catalogues. It does work better if you buy the
> ready-mixed potions, then follow the recipes carefully.

Thanks, Ganoskin has procedures listed I was not even aware of, the
pre cleaning. I thought dirty was better. This is more an art form and
experiment than anything.

[Andy Champ]

ransley wrote:
> How do you get new copper to look naturaly aged green and stable,
> Verdigris. I have used acids Hydrochloric, Hydroflouric, and find the
> Verdigris is a top layer and sometimes bluer or darker green than
> naturaly aged copper.
>

<snip>

I understand that urine works quite well. I heard a tale once -
possibly apocryphal - of a university piping the urinals from the gents
onto a copper dome...

Andy

[Appin]

The message <4e566c2e-8bd9-42c6...@g1g2000yqi.googlegroups.com>
from ransley <Mark_R...@Yahoo.com> contains these words:

> How do you get new copper to look naturaly aged green and stable,

Horse urine was the traditional material used in Eastern Canada where
there were and are a lot of copper roofs in the Montr�al - Ottawa area.

[S Viemeister]

An architect I used to know, claimed that the roofers were encouraged to
pee on the copper roof...

[george [dicegeorge]]

How do you get the horse onto the roof?
wait for xmas and reindeer?
[g]

[Rod]

Easier than getting the horses to do so.

--
Rod

[geoff]

In message <7s9aim...@mid.individual.net>, Rod
<poly...@ntlworld.com> writes

I dunno

once you got them on the roof, of course ...

--
geoff

[ransley]

Andy Warhol did some works in 1978 where he peed on paintings done in
copper paint, they turned green.

[Thomas Prufer]

On Tue, 26 Jan 2010 17:50:03 -0500, S Viemeister <firs...@lastname.oc.ku>
wrote:

>An architect I used to know, claimed that the roofers were encouraged to
>pee on the copper roof...

Here copper won't go green anymore, it stays brown. An architect explained to me
it's the lack of sulphur compounds in the air. Used to be the sulphur in coal
used for heating (and ISTR heating oil and diesel is now low-sulphur) caused the
green -- along with acid rain...

Thomas Prufer

[S Viemeister]

That explains it - the architect who told me that, worked in Edinburgh
in the 1960s - _lots_ of coal in the air.

[Neil]

"S Viemeister" <firs...@lastname.oc.ku> wrote in message
news:7sb0l4...@mid.individual.net...

Google for ' liver of sulphur '

[Clot]

I'm staggered that it took so long in the thread to come to this reply.

T'was bleedin obvious to me, though I do have a chemistry degree and have
been involved in environmental pollution issues for many years.

Psst! Anyone got a can of tributyltin they don't want? I just want to keep
the barnacles off the bottom of the boat!

[Mike]

On Thu, 28 Jan 2010 23:16:18 -0000, "Clot" <clo...@ntlglobe.goon>
wrote:

The easiest way is to keep the boat out of the water. Coincidentally
this also means that you don't waste money on mooring fees, or harbour
fees, or diesel. No sea sickness, torn sails, worn out engine,
blocked toilet. Much reduced insurance fees are also a bonus.

--