ZyXEL modem - attaching USB drive

[Martin S Taylor]

I’ve just changed service provider to Zen, who have given me a VMG8924-B10A
modem. This has two USB ports for attaching a network drive. The problem is
the whole configuration seems locked to the Windows infrastructure.

If I use a browser to look at the modem’s control panel, I can see the
drive sitting there, and I have the option to put in a Host Name. I have set
up a Share Directory and can see the Share Path. But I can’t work out how
to access the thing from OSX.

ZyXEL support, of course, tell me they only support PCs, and ‘can’t help
with iOS’ (sic).

Any suggestions?

Martin S Taylor

[Tosis]

Have you tried opening Finder, pressing <Command-K>, then entering
smb://<device_name> or smb://<device_IP_address> - this is what I do to
map access to both Windows servers and NAS dvices running SAMBA.

Justin

[Paul Womar]

Martin S Taylor <RvEaMn...@martinstaylor.com> wrote:

> I've just changed service provider to Zen, who have given me a VMG8924-B10A
> modem. This has two USB ports for attaching a network drive. The problem is
> the whole configuration seems locked to the Windows infrastructure.
>
> If I use a browser to look at the modem's control panel, I can see the
> drive sitting there, and I have the option to put in a Host Name. I have set
> up a Share Directory and can see the Share Path. But I can't work out how
> to access the thing from OSX.

Finder>Go>Connect to Server:

smb://IP

Cross fingers
Hit Connect

--
-> The email address used in this message *IS* valid <-

[Martin S Taylor]

On Jul 13, 2016, Tosis wrote
(in article<57865c00$0$52528$b1db1813$1367...@news.astraweb.com>):

> Have you tried opening Finder, pressing<Command-K>, then entering
> smb://<device_name> or smb://<device_IP_address> - this is what I do to
> map access to both Windows servers and NAS dvices running SAMBA.

Yes. It requests my name and password, but any sensible attempts at guessing
what these might be don’t work.

MST

[nospam]

In article
<0001HW.1D37013102...@news.eternal-september.org>,

Martin S Taylor <RvEaMn...@martinstaylor.com> wrote:

> > Have you tried opening Finder, pressing<Command-K>, then entering
> > smb://<device_name> or smb://<device_IP_address> - this is what I do to
> > map access to both Windows servers and NAS dvices running SAMBA.
>
> Yes. It requests my name and password, but any sensible attempts at guessing

> what these might be donšt work.

what's to guess? it's your username and password on the machine to
which you're connecting. if it's a nas, it's whatever you set up in its
configuration.

[Graham J]

Given that it's a USB disk connected to your router, it's probably the
username & password for the router.

--
Graham J

[Martin S Taylor]

On Jul 14, 2016, Graham J wrote
(in article <nm7b2r$hdt$1...@dont-email.me>):

> nospam wrote:
> > In article
> > <0001HW.1D37013102...@news.eternal-september.org>,
> > Martin S Taylor <RvEaMn...@martinstaylor.com>wrote:
> >
> > > > Have you tried opening Finder, pressing<Command-K>, then entering
> > > > smb://<device_name> or smb://<device_IP_address> - this is what I do to
> > > > map access to both Windows servers and NAS dvices running SAMBA.
> > >
> > > Yes. It requests my name and password, but any sensible attempts at
> > > guessing

> > > what these might be don¹t work.

> >
> > what's to guess? it's your username and password on the machine to
> > which you're connecting. if it's a nas, it's whatever you set up in its
> > configuration.
>
> Given that it's a USB disk connected to your router, it's probably the
> username & password for the router.

The password box just shakes its head at me.

If I specifically set up an account to share the USB port on the router
(which I can do using the router’s control panel) it tries to connect, but
then I get:

There was a problem connecting to the server “192.168.1.1”. The share
does not exist on the server. Please check the share name, and then try
again.
MST

[Tosis]

Okay then, so for my own edification (at the very least), a copy of the
English product user guide can be found at
http://prodotti.zyxel.it/USERSGUIDE/ZYXVMG-8924.pdf (nevermind from the
Italian site).

What I'd do step by step:
1. Ensure USB drive is formatted FAT / FAT32
2. Plug USB drive (powered up as appropriate) into router USB port
3. Log into router via web browser with default admin credentials at
default management address
4. Click over to Network Setting / USB Service / File Sharing page
5. Enable file sharing services and provide suitable host name (assumed
"RouterNAS" hereafter; click "Apply" button
6. Click "Add New Share" button; select volume from list box (assumed
"usb1_1" hereafter); click "Browse" to specify the share path (assumed
"usb1_1" as the disk root directory); select "security for the access
level"; click "Apply" button to proceed
7. Click "Add New User" button; provide username (assumed "Martin"
hereafter); provide password and confirmation; click "Apply" button to
proceed
8. Ensure that the checkbox next to user "Martin" is checked; click the
"Apply" button at the bottom of the File Sharing page to apply changes
9. Open Finder, press <Command-K>; enter path "smb://RouterNAS/usb1_1/"
and click "Connect"; when prompted enter username "Martin" with
suitable password. Should this fail try username as "RouterNAS\Martin"
with same password

Background info from the PDF
- At the bottom of page 1 you find the default admin credentials
- The USB service description is from page 183 onwards
- On page 184 it specifies the file systems supported as FAT / FAT32
only and applicable protocol as CIFS (aka Windows SMB 1.0 I believe)
- The file sharing configuration is discribed on pages 185-188.
- On page 186 there's a screen shot which is interesting - it seems to
can specify the SAMBA (?) hostname (I'm assuming equivalent to a
Windows NetBIOS name). It also shows an example of a folder share with
an effective path being something like
smb://<device_name>/usb1_1/<shared_subdir> and also a list of users
permitted. It seems this list of users is likely very separate from the
admin user list (with different passwords?). Note the checkbox to
"activate" a user account for a particular share.
- On page 187 is a description of the process to add a network share
Note the option to mark the share "public"; I'd assume this would then
be available to anonymous users. The alternate options appears to be
selecting "security" which then refers back to the user activation list
in the screenshot in page 186.
- The process of creating a user account for file share purposes is
described on page 188.

Hope this is of some use, even if only to confirm that I'd be in the
same predicament as you...

Justin

[Graham J]

Tosis wrote:

[snip]

>
> Okay then, so for my own edification (at the very least), a copy of the
> English product user guide can be found at
> http://prodotti.zyxel.it/USERSGUIDE/ZYXVMG-8924.pdf (nevermind from the
> Italian site).
>
> What I'd do step by step:
> 1. Ensure USB drive is formatted FAT / FAT32
> 2. Plug USB drive (powered up as appropriate) into router USB port
> 3. Log into router via web browser with default admin credentials at
> default management address
> 4. Click over to Network Setting / USB Service / File Sharing page
> 5. Enable file sharing services and provide suitable host name (assumed
> "RouterNAS" hereafter; click "Apply" button

You may have to explicitly specify Apple File Sharing protocol. Other
NAS boxes I've seen have this as an option. If this is not available
SMB should work, but it might be broken so it doesn't work with a Mac.

[snip]

--
Graham J

[Chris Ridd]

You should certainly consider choosing SMB, as Apple are removing their
old Apple File Sharing protocol in favour of SMB with several Apple
extensions.

Recent versions of Samba do support some of these extensions.

--
Chris

[Ian McCall]

On 2016-07-14 11:41:32 +0000, Chris Ridd <chri...@mac.com> said:

> You should certainly consider choosing SMB, as Apple are removing their
> old Apple File Sharing protocol in favour of SMB with several Apple
> extensions.

Annoyingly, I've found most of the non-Apple Time Machine servers
assume AFP as a requirement. My Synology requires me to enable the 'Mac
File Service', by which they mean AFP, before it becomes available as a
Time Machine target.


Cheers,
Ian
--
Check out Proto the album: <http://studioicm.com/proto/>

[Martin S Taylor]

On Jul 14, 2016, Tosis wrote
(in article<578757a3$0$2958$b1db1813$7190...@news.astraweb.com>):

> 9. Open Finder, press <Command-K>; enter path "smb://RouterNAS/usb1_1/"
> and click "Connect"; when prompted enter username "Martin" with
> suitable password. Should this fail try username as "RouterNAS\Martin"
> with same password

This is the stage which fails.

The only path I can get it to recognise is 192.168.1.1 (the router’s IP
address). Anything else “does not exist”.

Then I can’t get Name: Martin and Password: mypass combination to be
accepted, because ‘the share does not exist on the server’.

(Any other name/password combination just causes the dialog box to shake its
head at me.)

MST

[Graham J]

Martin S Taylor wrote:
> On Jul 14, 2016, Tosis wrote
> (in article<578757a3$0$2958$b1db1813$7190...@news.astraweb.com>):
>
>> 9. Open Finder, press <Command-K>; enter path "smb://RouterNAS/usb1_1/"
>> and click "Connect"; when prompted enter username "Martin" with
>> suitable password. Should this fail try username as "RouterNAS\Martin"
>> with same password
> This is the stage which fails.
>
> The only path I can get it to recognise is 192.168.1.1 (the router’s IP
> address). Anything else “does not exist”.
>

Well, obviously ...

> Then I can’t get Name: Martin and Password: mypass combination to be
> accepted, because ‘the share does not exist on the server’.
>
> (Any other name/password combination just causes the dialog box to shake its
> head at me.)

Somebody posted very detailed instructions as to how to set up the
router to configure the connected USB disk as a NAS. Did you follow
those instructions?

Have you tried a diffferent router - one that is known to manage a
connected USB disk?

In the past I've tried to connect a printer to the USB port on a router
but never got it to work as an IP printer. I suspect the implementation
in the router of expected services is lacking.

--
Graham J

[Martin S Taylor]

On Jul 17, 2016, Graham J wrote
(in article <nmg9sf$c1c$1...@dont-email.me>):

> Somebody posted very detailed instructions as to how to set up the
> router to configure the connected USB disk as a NAS. Did you follow
> those instructions?

Yes.

> Have you tried a diffferent router - one that is known to manage a
> connected USB disk?

Apple’s Airport work flawlessly, but don’t support VDSL. I’ve used two
ZyXel routers for VDSL, both of which say they manage USB, but neither of
them works for me.

Which is why I’m posting here.

MST

[Graham J]

Can a PC see the storage connected to the ZyXel router?

> Which is why I’m posting here.

Configure the ZyXel router as a modem, and connect it to the WAN2
Ethernet port of the Airport. (It does have an Ethernet WAN port, yes?)

--
Graham J

[Graham J]

Another idea: configure the Airport as a switch.

First power of the Airport.

Connect the Mac to the ZyXel router by Ethernet cable. Temporarily
disable the WiFi on the ZyXel - to avoid confusion.

Make a note of the IP address and DHCP range of the ZyXel. Suppose
these are:

IP address: 192.168.1.1
DHCP start: 192.168.1.2
DHCP end: 192.168.1.100

Now disconnect the Mac from the ZyXel and connect it by Ethernet cable
to the Airport. Power up the Airport. Temporarily disable the WiFi on
the Airport. Configure the IP address of the Airport to be on the same
subnet as the ZyXel, but outside its DHCP scope; for example
192.168.1.200 - reboot if necessary.

Now disable the DHCP service in the Airport.
--------------------------------------------

Re-connect the Mac to the ZyXel by Ethernet cable and confirm you can
communicate with it.

Connect an Ethernet cable from a LAN port on the ZyXel router to a LAN
port on the Airport. Prove you can communicate with the airport at the
IP address you gave it - you should be able to ping it. Configure the
Airport to support the USB disk - you already know how to do this.

I don't know much about the Apple Airport other than it doesn't have a
web management interface, so it's quite likely you can't do other things
like disabling the DHCP service - but if you can, this technique should
work.

You could then place the two routers some distance apart - connected
with up to 100 metres of Ethernet cable - and enable both their WiFi
services - thereby increasing the coverage.

--
Graham J

[Tosis]

A few gotchas to reconsider:
- Has the router been bounced (rebooted)?
- Again, the file system of the UDB disk needs to be FAT or FAT32 - is
this the case?
- Per step (5) previously posted, is the hostname you provided the same
as the hostname the router will generally use?
- Is there a firmware upgrade available from Zyxel?
- Any special firewall rules in place on the Mac? Considered briefly
disabling the firewall to test?

Have to say that Graham's recommendation to treat the Airport as a
switch is a good one - I've done this several times with other
manufacturer's kit typically to retain the WAP while using an
replacement modem / router.

Justin

[Jaimie Vandenbergh]

Ian McCall <i...@eruvia.org> wrote:
> On 2016-07-14 11:41:32 +0000, Chris Ridd <chri...@mac.com> said:
>
>> You should certainly consider choosing SMB, as Apple are removing their
>> old Apple File Sharing protocol in favour of SMB with several Apple
>> extensions.
>
> Annoyingly, I've found most of the non-Apple Time Machine servers
> assume AFP as a requirement.

I may be out of date, but I think that until Sierra arrives Time Machine
will only work natively on AFP (netatalk on non-Apple devices) without
considerable messing around. It's lagging way behind OSX's otherwise
defaulting to SMB for network connections that started in Mavericks or
Yosemite, I forget.

My Synology requires me to enable the 'Mac
> File Service', by which they mean AFP, before it becomes available as a
> Time Machine target.

And of course NAS vendors lag behind even further, so even when TM switches
to SMB native it'll still take a year or two until they update the firmware
to allow SMB shares to be advertised as TM-compatible to the network.

Cheers - Jaimie

[Martin S Taylor]

On Jul 17, 2016, Graham J wrote

(in article <nmgsjn$dep$1...@dont-email.me>):

> Graham J wrote:

<detailed instructions>

Thanks for that. I may try it when I have an odd day free.

It does seem odd, though, that ZyXel, whom both Zen and Andrews& Arnold
recommend for their VDSL modems, provide a USB socket which doesn't support
Macintosh.

MST

[xfor...@googlemail.com]

After struggling with this for a while, I upgraded the firmware to the latest version (AAKL.28) and found it all worked OK from then on.

[Martin S Taylor]

On Dec 26, 2019, xfor...@googlemail.com wrote
(in article<c8890477-5442-4694...@googlegroups.com>):

[Martin S Taylor]

On Dec 26, 2019, xfor...@googlemail.com wrote
(in article<c8890477-5442-4694...@googlegroups.com>):

Let's try that again...

Pretty much as before. I can see everything I expect, and everything works as
everyone says it should.

In the Finder I connect to server, using the parameters smb:///mnt/usb1_1
(which is what the router tells me to) and everything goes through smoothly.
Except I can't see the disk anywhere. It should just appear on the desktop,
no? Because it doesn't.

MST

[nospam]

In article
<0001HW.23B6513600...@news.eternal-september.org>,

Martin S Taylor <corresp...@mRaErMtOiVnEsTtHaIySlor.com> wrote:

> In the Finder I connect to server, using the parameters smb:///mnt/usb1_1
> (which is what the router tells me to) and everything goes through smoothly.
> Except I can't see the disk anywhere. It should just appear on the desktop,
> no? Because it doesn't.

check if connected servers is ticked in finder->preferences.

[Martin S Taylor]

On Dec 27, 2019, nospam wrote
(in article<271220190952242169%nos...@nospam.invalid>):

I'm not a *complete* idiot.

MST

[David]

Please show a screenshot of the item 'nospam' suggested that you checked.

[nospam]

In article
<0001HW.23B6534E00...@news.eternal-september.org>,

Martin S Taylor <corresp...@mRaErMtOiVnEsTtHaIySlor.com> wrote:

> > > In the Finder I connect to server, using the parameters smb:///mnt/usb1_1
> > > (which is what the router tells me to) and everything goes through
> > > smoothly.
> > > Except I can't see the disk anywhere. It should just appear on the
> > > desktop, no? Because it doesn't.
> >
> > check if connected servers is ticked in finder->preferences.
>
> I'm not a *complete* idiot.

i didn't say you were.

looking at the user manual, they explicitly say mac os x support for
some features, although not for file sharing, but the very next section
they do for printer sharing.

the version of the manual i found is from 2013, which is old enough
that i suspect the device only supports smb1 which macos no longer
does. you could test this with a mac running an older version of mac
os, but i forget when it changed (10.9/10.10 era).

also try:
cifs://mnt/usb1_1
smb://x.x.x.x
smb://x.x.x.x/usb1_1
cifs://x.x.x.x
cifs://x.x.x.x/usb1_1

where x.x.x.x is the ip address of the modem.

[nospam]

In article <E9pNF.79695$4G2....@fx46.iad>, David

<Da...@address.invalid> wrote:

> >> check if connected servers is ticked in finder->preferences.
> >
> > I'm not a *complete* idiot.
> >
> > MST
>
> Please show a screenshot of the item 'nospam' suggested that you checked.

stfu.

[Martin S Taylor]

On Dec 27, 2019, nospam wrote

(in article<271220191017543963%nos...@nospam.invalid>):

> cifs://x.x.x.x/usb1_1

Bloody hell - this one works!

Thank you!

MST

[David]

No.

What caused this? https://imgur.com/gallery/bvBhAEY

Demonstrate just HOW clever you really are!

Your MID <271220191017543963%nos...@nospam.invalid> refers

[Billy Goat Gruff]

--
Trip, trap, trip, trap ...

[nospam]

In article <CCqNF.79702$4G2....@fx46.iad>, David

<Da...@address.invalid> wrote:

>
> What caused this? https://imgur.com/gallery/bvBhAEY

mental retardation.

[nospam]

In article
<0001HW.23B6680700...@news.eternal-september.org>,

Martin S Taylor <corresp...@mRaErMtOiVnEsTtHaIySlor.com> wrote:

> > cifs://x.x.x.x/usb1_1
>
> Bloody hell - this one works!
>
> Thank you!

you're welcome.

[Richard Soul]

On 28/12/2019 09:54, David wrote:
> On 27/12/2019 19:53, Mike Easter wrote:
>> David wrote:
>>> Mike Easter wrote:

>>>> David wrote:
>>>>> What caused this? https://imgur.com/gallery/bvBhAEY
>>>>

>>>> Unbelievable.
>>>
>>> Had you read this post, Mike?
>>>
>>> MID <271220191017543963%nos...@nospam.invalid>
>>>
>> Doh!
>>
>> Have you read the last line of that msg?
>
> Yes, of course! <rolls eyes>
>
>> http://al.howardknight.net/?ID=157747595900

>>
>> "where x.x.x.x is the ip address of the modem."
>>

>> What is unbelievable is your trying x.x.x.x
>
> It did the trick! (It got folk responding! ;-) )
>
>> It is no wonder that nospam considers you 'mentally retarded'.
>
> I don't mind him being mistaken!
>
>> Oh, I'm sure you are likely to say that you were actually pulling a
>> trick on someone being investigated.  You have a hard time 'fessing
>> up' to your errors and shortcomings.  You either ignore them or
>> pretend that you were practicing a ruse.
>
> As you know, the whole defamatory ‘article’ about me was put on line for
> spite - in retaliation for me finding malware on the Tekrider site.
>
> I took this screenshot as evidence:-  https://i.imgur.com/JCa39b8.jpg
>
> If you review the ’script’ described in that image you’ll no doubt
> recognise that there’s something definitely amiss there. Here’s a
> screenshot of what my ISP, BT, says about it *today*:-
>
> https://imgur.com/gallery/XDCltQw
>
> I don't make up these things, Mike. They are facts.


You have been told already that you are misinterpreting what you see.

[Shadow]

On Sat, 28 Dec 2019 09:54:13 +0000, David <Da...@address.invalid>

wrote:

>On 27/12/2019 19:53, Mike Easter wrote:
>> David wrote:
>>> Mike Easter wrote:
>>>> David wrote:

>>>>> What caused this? https://imgur.com/gallery/bvBhAEY
>>>>

>>>> Unbelievable.
>>>
>>> Had you read this post, Mike?
>>>
>>> MID <271220191017543963%nos...@nospam.invalid>
>>>
>> Doh!
>>
>> Have you read the last line of that msg?
>
>Yes, of course! <rolls eyes>

People don't roll their eyes all the time(with the possible
exception of cheerleaders and drunks).

>
>> http://al.howardknight.net/?ID=157747595900
>>
>> "where x.x.x.x is the ip address of the modem."
>>
>> What is unbelievable is your trying x.x.x.x
>
>It did the trick!
>

>> It is no wonder that nospam considers you 'mentally retarded'.

In BD's defense, it's only when he's drunk as a skunk.

>
>> Oh, I'm sure you are likely to say that you were actually pulling a
>> trick on someone being investigated.  You have a hard time 'fessing up'
>> to your errors and shortcomings.  You either ignore them or pretend that
>> you were practicing a ruse.

Correct. See above.
Finally, some people are "getting to know him better". Took
long enough ...

OT up. It never was helping people with installing modems on
Macs.

---------------
BD: I want people to "get to know me better. I have nothing to
hide".
I'm always here to help, this page was put up at BD's request,
rather, he said "Do it *NOW*!":

<http://tekrider.net/pages/david-brooks-stalker.php>

> 64 confirmed #FAKE_NYMS, most used in cybercrimes!
Google "David Brooks Devon"
[]'s
--
Don't be evil - Google 2004
We have a new policy - Google 2012

[David]

On 28/12/2019 10:00, Richard Soul - *STALKER*????
[SNIP]

> You have been told already that you are misinterpreting what you see.

How would YOU know that, Richard *THE STALKER* Soul?

It's best to be honest when dealing with me, 'arsehole'! :-P

Shadow *LIED* when he claimed today that I altered this image.

https://imgur.com/JCa39b8

It was *NOT* altered by me in any way.

--
The truth *WILL* out! :-D

[Char Jackson]

On Sat, 28 Dec 2019 10:40:27 +0000, David <Da...@address.invalid> wrote:

>The truth *WILL* out!

Done and done. Verdict? You're an idiot who wants to hit a server at
x.x.x.x.


--

Have you been approached by David Brooks (DB, ~DB~, and 60+ other nyms)?

To prevent yourself from being a victim of cyber
stalking, it's highly recommended that you visit here:

<https://tekrider.net/pages/david-brooks-stalker.php>
<https://web.archive.org/web/20191209135823/https://tekrider.net/pages/david-brooks-stalker.php>

[Shadow]

On Sat, 28 Dec 2019 07:33:25 -0600, Char Jackson <no...@none.invalid>
wrote:

>On Sat, 28 Dec 2019 10:40:27 +0000, David <Da...@address.invalid> wrote:
>
>>The truth *WILL* out!
>
>Done and done. Verdict? You're an idiot who wants to hit a server at
>x.x.x.x.

MY server.
Server abuse reported to the asylum.

[Panthera Tigris Altaica]

On 2019-12-28 05:40, David wrote:
> On 28/12/2019 10:00, Richard Soul - *STALKER*????
> [SNIP]
>
>> You have been told already that you are misinterpreting what you see.
>
> How would YOU know that, Richard *THE STALKER* Soul?

It is always amusing to see the master stalker call someone else a
stalker. In particular it is always amusing when the person so accused
wasn't doing anything even close to stalking.

>
> It's best to be honest when dealing with me, 'arsehole'! :-P

You are rarely honest.

>
> Shadow *LIED* when he claimed today that I altered this image.
>
> https://imgur.com/JCa39b8
>
> It was *NOT* altered by me in any way.
>

Please note the weasel words in the above statement.

[Martin S Taylor]

On Dec 27, 2019, nospam wrote

(in article<271220191639006877%nos...@nospam.invalid>):

Just in case anyone reads this thread in future, let me archive the steps to
get it to work:

1. Connect the drive to the Mac, and use Disk Utility to format it as FAT,
using the Master Boot Record scheme.

2. Create a top-level directory, called eg. MyDirectory.

3. Attach the drive to the modem.
4. Using a web browser, log on to the modem control panel at 192.168.1.1 with
admin privileges.

5. Go to the USB set-up page.

6. Enable File Sharing Services.

7. Add a new Share, allowing sharing to MyDirectory. (This step appears not
to be necessary per se, but you can't complete step 8 without doing it.)
Grant public access if you want to access the drive from a Mac running
Catalina.

8. Add a new Share, allowing access to the top level Directory. Grant public
access if you want to access the drive from a Mac running Catalina.

(Earlier systems allow access from specific password-protected user accounts,
but it seems Catalina won't permit this.)

9. Add an account name if you want to mount the server automatically from eg.
Carbon Copy Cloner. Carbon Copy Cloner insists on a user name and password
even if you've granted public access.

10. Click the 'Apply' button.

11. Access the directories from the Mac using cifs://192.168.1.1/usb1_1

Whew!

MST

[Martin S Taylor]

On Dec 27, 2019, nospam wrote

(in article<271220191639006877%nos...@nospam.invalid>):

> > > cifs://x.x.x.x/usb1_1
> >
> > Bloody hell - this one works!
> >
> > Thank you!
>
> you're welcome.

Oh, bloody hell! I've just found that every file on the mounted drive is
Locked, and "can't be unlocked".

Is this a Unix permissions thing? Is there anything I can do about this?

MST

[nospam]

In article
<0001HW.23BE510400...@news.eternal-september.org>,

Martin S Taylor <corresp...@mRaErMtOiVnEsTtHaIySlor.com> wrote:

>

> Oh, bloody hell! I've just found that every file on the mounted drive is
> Locked, and "can't be unlocked".
>
> Is this a Unix permissions thing? Is there anything I can do about this?

could be.

check the zyxel's ui for the share, who has access, etc.

[Martin S Taylor]

On Jan 2, 2020, nospam wrote
(in article<020120201127507515%nos...@nospam.invalid>):

> > Oh, bloody hell! I've just found that every file on the mounted drive is
> > Locked, and "can't be unlocked".
> >
> > Is this a Unix permissions thing? Is there anything I can do about this?
>
> could be.
>
> check the zyxel's ui for the share, who has access, etc.

Where do I look? The ZyXel's ui is set to Public. Looking at the file's 'Get
Info', the 'Locked' box is ticked and won't untick.

MST

[nospam]

In article
<0001HW.23BE586300...@news.eternal-september.org>,

Martin S Taylor <corresp...@mRaErMtOiVnEsTtHaIySlor.com> wrote:

> > > Oh, bloody hell! I've just found that every file on the mounted drive is
> > > Locked, and "can't be unlocked".
> > >
> > > Is this a Unix permissions thing? Is there anything I can do about this?
> >
> > could be.
> >
> > check the zyxel's ui for the share, who has access, etc.
>
> Where do I look? The ZyXel's ui is set to Public. Looking at the file's 'Get
> Info', the 'Locked' box is ticked and won't untick.

the manual i found is this:
<https://www.zyxel.com/za/en/uploads/images/VMG8924-B30A_V1.00-UG.pdf>

section 13.2, page 188 is about file sharing. it looks like you need to
create a share and one or more users.

i don't have the router so have no way to test it.

[Martin S Taylor]

On Jan 2, 2020, nospam wrote

(in article<020120201234548951%nos...@nospam.invalid>):

> > > check the zyxel's ui for the share, who has access, etc.
> >
> > Where do I look? The ZyXel's ui is set to Public. Looking at the file's 'Get
> > Info', the 'Locked' box is ticked and won't untick.
>
> the manual i found is this:
> <https://www.zyxel.com/za/en/uploads/images/VMG8924-B30A_V1.00-UG.pdf>
>
> section 13.2, page 188 is about file sharing. it looks like you need to
> create a share and one or more users.

God knows. The Unix permissions for all files on the drive are r-xr-xr-x and
I can't find any way to change them.

Maybe it's some kind of protection mechanism to stop two people editing the
file at the same time.

MST

[Graham J]

nospam wrote:
[snip]

>
> section 13.2, page 188 is about file sharing. it looks like you need to
> create a share and one or more users.

This would be typical for any sort of NAS device.

--
Graham J

[Martin S Taylor]

On Jan 2, 2020, Graham J wrote
(in article <qulfo6$lkk$2...@dont-email.me>):

> > section 13.2, page 188 is about file sharing. it looks like you need to
> > create a share and one or more users.
>
> This would be typical for any sort of NAS device.

Yes, of course. And I have created the share, and it lets me access the
drive. The only problem is that every file on it has no write access, and I
can't see how to get write access either.

MST

[Graham J]

As nospam suggests, use the ZyXEL interface to create a user, with the
same name and password as the user of the Mac - the same name (including
capitalisation) is probably essential. Again using the ZyXEL interface
give that user full read/write permissions to the share you've created.
It may be necessary to delete any files in this share before setting the
user permissions, or even remove and re-create an empty share.

Now look at the share from the Mac, and see if you can write a file to
it, then read it.

I haven't read the ZyXEL manual, but am working from experience with NAS
boxes such as those from Buffalo Technology, and using Windows.

I've worked with a good many routers over the years, and some have had
USB ports. But their functionality has often been arbitrarily limited -
on some routers you can plug in a printer and print from anything on the
LAN using the router's IP address - but this often depends on the
printer manufacturer providing a suitable driver. Some have allowed
connection of storage devices - but only for the router to write log
information, not as a general network storage resource.

I suspect router software designers throw in these features as an
afterthought, and they are not well designed.

It's much better to use a proper NAS device. Often these will support
Time Machine, and have their own interface for backup to external storage.



--
Graham J

[nospam]

In article <qultae$6gr$1...@dont-email.me>, Graham J

<nob...@nowhere.co.uk> wrote:

> >>> section 13.2, page 188 is about file sharing. it looks like you need to
> >>> create a share and one or more users.
> >>
> >> This would be typical for any sort of NAS device.
> >
> > Yes, of course. And I have created the share, and it lets me access the
> > drive. The only problem is that every file on it has no write access, and I
> > can't see how to get write access either.
>
> As nospam suggests, use the ZyXEL interface to create a user, with the
> same name and password as the user of the Mac - the same name (including
> capitalisation) is probably essential.

actually, i wasn't suggesting the names match, just that the user and
permissions can be configured on the zyxel, then log in with whatever
user/password is created. however, i can't test it since i don't have
the router.

> Again using the ZyXEL interface
> give that user full read/write permissions to the share you've created.

that's the idea.

> It may be necessary to delete any files in this share before setting the
> user permissions, or even remove and re-create an empty share.

that's possible.

however, a little digging suggests it's a cifs/smb issue.

> It's much better to use a proper NAS device. Often these will support
> Time Machine, and have their own interface for backup to external storage.

yep. get a synology and don't look back.

[Martin S Taylor]

On Jan 2, 2020, Graham J wrote

(in article <qultae$6gr$1...@dont-email.me>):

> As nospam suggests, use the ZyXEL interface to create a user, with the
> same name and password as the user of the Mac - the same name (including
> capitalisation) is probably essential. Again using the ZyXEL interface
> give that user full read/write permissions to the share you've created.
> It may be necessary to delete any files in this share before setting the
> user permissions, or even remove and re-create an empty share.
>
> Now look at the share from the Mac, and see if you can write a file to
> it, then read it.
>
> I haven't read the ZyXEL manual, but am working from experience with NAS
> boxes such as those from Buffalo Technology, and using Windows.

Yes, I've done all that. No good - every file has r-wr-wr-w permission, and
is marked as Locked in MacOS.

> I've worked with a good many routers over the years, and some have had
> USB ports. But their functionality has often been arbitrarily limited -
> on some routers you can plug in a printer and print from anything on the
> LAN using the router's IP address - but this often depends on the
> printer manufacturer providing a suitable driver. Some have allowed
> connection of storage devices - but only for the router to write log
> information, not as a general network storage resource.
>
> I suspect router software designers throw in these features as an
> afterthought, and they are not well designed.

That was my impression. I contacted ZyXel about this a while ago, and they
were pretty clueless. They just told me the USB feature wasn't designed to be
used with a Mac.

> It's much better to use a proper NAS device. Often these will support
> Time Machine, and have their own interface for backup to external storage.

I'll look into it, but it's probably overkill for what I need. Thanks anyway.

MST

[Graham J]

Martin S Taylor wrote:
[snip]

>
> Yes, I've done all that. No good - every file has r-wr-wr-w permission, and
> is marked as Locked in MacOS.

From
<https://www.chriswrites.com/how-to-change-file-permissions-using-the-terminal/>

... your permissions appear to be:

read - no-execute - write for each of Users, Groups, and Others so this
suggests that reading and writing should be possible.

A quick google finds
<https://www.jeffgeerling.com/tutorial/2008-12-02/dealing-locked-files-mac>
which suggests it is possible to Unlock a file by:

"Command + I," then uncheck the 'Locked' checkbox.

Does this work for you?

If you start with an empty file share, can you use the Mac to put a file
into that share, and later read or modify it?



--
Graham J

[Martin S Taylor]

On Jan 3, 2020, Graham J wrote
(in article <qun5o2$r42$1...@dont-email.me>):

> Martin S Taylor wrote:
> [snip]
>
> >
> > Yes, I've done all that. No good - every file has r-wr-wr-w permission, and
> > is marked as Locked in MacOS.
>
> From
> <https://www.chriswrites.com/how-to-change-file-permissions-using-the-terminal
> />
>
> ... your permissions appear to be:
>
> read - no-execute - write for each of Users, Groups, and Others so this
> suggests that reading and writing should be possible.

I mistyped. The files are all r-xr-xr-x and the behaviour is consistent with
this.

(Folders are rwxrwxrwx so I *can* add files to folders.)

> A quick google finds
> <https://www.jeffgeerling.com/tutorial/2008-12-02/dealing-locked-files-mac>
> which suggests it is possible to Unlock a file by:
>
> "Command + I," then uncheck the 'Locked' checkbox.
>
> Does this work for you?

No.

> If you start with an empty file share, can you use the Mac to put a file
> into that share, and later read or modify it?

I can add a file and later read it or delete it, but not modify it.

MST

[Graham J]

Martin S Taylor wrote:

[snip]

>

> I can add a file and later read it or delete it, but not modify it.

OK so folders being rwxrwxrwx allows you to delete a file.

Does "man chmod" show you how to set write permission on a file? Does
this work when applied to a file on the ZyXEL share? If not, is there
an error code?


--
Graham J

[Martin S Taylor]

On Jan 3, 2020, Alan B wrote
(in article <qunnfv$25e$1...@dont-email.me>):

> > Does "man chmod" show you how to set write permission on a file? Does
> > this work when applied to a file on the ZyXEL share? If not, is there
> > an error code?
>

> chmod +w filename
>
> maybe preceded by sudo if you don’t “own” it but then you can always
> change
> ownership using chgrp/chown, with sudo.

All goes through fine without an error code (as far as I can see).

Permissions remain -r-x-r-x-r-x@

(Not sure what the @ means.)

MST

[Martin S Taylor]

On Jan 2, 2020, nospam wrote

(in article<020120201830449853%nos...@nospam.invalid>):

> > It's much better to use a proper NAS device. Often these will support
> > Time Machine, and have their own interface for backup to external storage.
>
> yep. get a synology and don't look back.

Looking at them, this may be a sensible idea. Is Synology the way to go? I
wondered about something like the DiskStation DS120j as a first experiment.

MST

[nospam]

In article
<0001HW.23BFAE9000...@news.eternal-september.org>,

Martin S Taylor <corresp...@mRaErMtOiVnEsTtHaIySlor.com> wrote:

> > > It's much better to use a proper NAS device. Often these will support
> > > Time Machine, and have their own interface for backup to external storage.
> >
> > yep. get a synology and don't look back.
>
> Looking at them, this may be a sensible idea. Is Synology the way to go?

definitely.

> I wondered about something like the DiskStation DS120j as a first experiment.

the 120j has only one drive, so there's no redundancy and no ability to
grow it in the future.

it also requires tools to open it up to swap the drive and is not the
fastest, so it will be limited in what it can do with the available
apps, some of which won't work at all (e.g., docker).

if you want to expand it later, you'll either need to buy another nas,
or swap the old drive after backing everything up, then copying
everything all back to the new drive.

you can still use one drive in a multi-bay unit, and having a spare bay
means you can pop in another drive at some point in the future to add
more space without any hassle, and depending on how you configured it
originally, it can expand without needing to reformat.

most of the 2-bay and bigger units are hot-swappable and do not require
any tools to install or remove a drive.

synology's apps are here:
<https://www.synology.com/en-us/dsm/packages>

among those are apps that can sync the nas to another cloud service,
set up your own private personal cloud, plex media server and a *lot*
more.

there's even more third party apps (although generally not as good):
<https://synocommunity.com/packages>

you can get some of the nas functionality with a synology router, but
only if you can swap out the zyxel.

[Ian McCall]

On 3 Jan 2020, Martin S Taylor wrote
(in article<0001HW.23BFAE9000...@news.eternal-september.org>):

> Looking at them, this may be a sensible idea. Is Synology the way to go? I
> wondered about something like the DiskStation DS120j as a first experiment.

Massive fan of my Synology - it’s been doing a great job for years now, and
I’ve survived several drive failures without blinking.

I have the 5 bay one, but from years back - a DS1513+. You don’t have to
fill all the disks at once, but I would definitely recommend getting a model
that has drive redundancy.

For Time Machine I created a user on the Synology for each machine I’m
backing up, and set a quota on that user’s disk space. This is a useful way
of limiting the size of Time Machine backups without having to faff around
with partitioning everything.

Cheers,
Ian

--
Checkout the new single Something out There and more, plus the albums Voix
Sans Voix and Proto, all at:<http://studioicm.com>, stream
at<https://soundcloud.com/mccalli> and<http://ianmccall.bandcamp.com>

[nospam]

In article <0001HW.23C0A27E00...@news.individual.net>,

Ian McCall <i...@eruvia.org> wrote:

> > Looking at them, this may be a sensible idea. Is Synology the way to go? I
> > wondered about something like the DiskStation DS120j as a first experiment.
>

> Massive fan of my Synology - itąs been doing a great job for years now, and
> Iąve survived several drive failures without blinking.
>
> I have the 5 bay one, but from years back - a DS1513+. You donąt have to

> fill all the disks at once, but I would definitely recommend getting a model
> that has drive redundancy.
>

> For Time Machine I created a user on the Synology for each machine Iąm
> backing up, and set a quota on that userąs disk space. This is a useful way

> of limiting the size of Time Machine backups without having to faff around
> with partitioning everything.

also, get a model that supports the btrfs file system and be sure to
use it. not all do, especially the entry level models.

<https://www.synology.com/en-global/dsm/Btrfs>

[Martin S Taylor]

On Jan 4, 2020, nospam wrote
(in article<040120200704519607%nos...@nospam.invalid>):

> > Massive fan of my Synology - it¹s been doing a great job for years now, and
> > I¹ve survived several drive failures without blinking.
> >
> > I have the 5 bay one, but from years back - a DS1513+. You don¹t have to

> > fill all the disks at once, but I would definitely recommend getting a model
> > that has drive redundancy.
> >

> > For Time Machine I created a user on the Synology for each machine I¹m
> > backing up, and set a quota on that user¹s disk space. This is a useful way

> > of limiting the size of Time Machine backups without having to faff around
> > with partitioning everything.
>
> also, get a model that supports the btrfs file system and be sure to
> use it. not all do, especially the entry level models.
>
> <https://www.synology.com/en-global/dsm/Btrfs>

So something like this

https://www.synology.com/en-global/products/DS218

or even this, if I can justify the expense

https://www.synology.com/en-global/products/DS418play

?

I'm currently using - and moderately happy with - a couple of Drobo Direct
attached storage drives, but I'm sensing the need to get some Network
attached storage, since the choir I sing with need some sort of file server,
and all the commercial cloud-based ones seem expensive and/or insecure.

But all the various applications and add-on packages are a little daunting,
though: DiskStation Manager, Synology Drive, File Station...

MST

[Sn!pe]

Martin S Taylor <corresp...@mRaErMtOiVnEsTtHaIySlor.com> wrote:

> On Jan 4, 2020, nospam wrote
> (in article<040120200704519607%nos...@nospam.invalid>):
>

> > > Massive fan of my Synology - it?s been doing a great job for years
> > > now, and I?ve survived several drive failures without blinking.
> > >
> > > I have the 5 bay one, but from years back - a DS1513+. You don?t have

> > > to fill all the disks at once, but I would definitely recommend
> > > getting a model that has drive redundancy.
> > >

> > > For Time Machine I created a user on the Synology for each machine I?m
> > > backing up, and set a quota on that user?s disk space. This is a

> > > useful way of limiting the size of Time Machine backups without having
> > > to faff around with partitioning everything.
> >
> > also, get a model that supports the btrfs file system and be sure to
> > use it. not all do, especially the entry level models.
> >
> > <https://www.synology.com/en-global/dsm/Btrfs>
>
> So something like this
>
> https://www.synology.com/en-global/products/DS218
>
> or even this, if I can justify the expense
>
> https://www.synology.com/en-global/products/DS418play
>

I'm considering a Synology DS418play for my own "casual user
with four family Macs to serve and back up" case. Would it
be an appropriate choice? Does the group have recommendations
for suitable HDDs for such a device, reliability being more
important than cost?

--
^Ï^ My pet rock Gordon just is.

[Ian McCall]

On 4 Jan 2020, Sn!pe wrote
(in article<1ojnvgo.1awlg6xfqtns2N%snip...@gmail.com>):

> I'm considering a Synology DS418play for my own "casual user
> with four family Macs to serve and back up" case. Would it
> be an appropriate choice? Does the group have recommendations
> for suitable HDDs for such a device, reliability being more
> important than cost?

I use WD Red. Google has some stats which, I believe, showed the advantage of
server-optimised drives over standard was low at best, but the cost
difference wasn’t really enough that I cared. I did have some WD Green in
there for a while, and a Blue I think, and was all fine.

I haven’t got round to adding the SSD cache to mine - if you’re doing
video stuff it might be worth it. I’m still on the cheap-but-higher-storage
HDD approach for the NAS.

Either of the two devices (2 bay or 4 bay) would be fine - just depends on
what you want, and also if you can resist the temptation in a 2 bay to just
use all the raw storage as accessible storage rather than storage +
redundancy.

[Martin S Taylor]

On Jan 4, 2020, Ian McCall wrote
(in article<0001HW.23C0FF0A00...@news.individual.net>):

> > I'm considering a Synology DS418play for my own "casual user
> > with four family Macs to serve and back up" case. Would it
> > be an appropriate choice? Does the group have recommendations
> > for suitable HDDs for such a device, reliability being more
> > important than cost?
>
> I use WD Red. Google has some stats which, I believe, showed the advantage of
> server-optimised drives over standard was low at best, but the cost
> difference wasn’t really enough that I cared. I did have some WD Green in
> there for a while, and a Blue I think, and was all fine.

From my experience with the Drobo Direct Attached, I agree. WD Red is what I
use, and what Drobo recommend, although as with Ian, I had some Green and
some Black and they were fine.

> I haven’t got round to adding the SSD cache to mine - if you’re doing
> video stuff it might be worth it. I’m still on the cheap-but-higher-storage
> HDD approach for the NAS.

I use the SSD cache in the Drobo, and it makes very little difference, even
though I do lots of video stuff.

> Either of the two devices (2 bay or 4 bay) would be fine - just depends on
> what you want, and also if you can resist the temptation in a 2 bay to just
> use all the raw storage as accessible storage rather than storage +
> redundancy.

Oh, absolutely. I've had a couple of disks fail (though I suspect Drobo is
extraordinarily fussy) and I've been so grateful for the redundancy.

MST

[nospam]

In article
<0001HW.23C0DFE800...@news.eternal-september.org>,

Martin S Taylor <corresp...@mRaErMtOiVnEsTtHaIySlor.com> wrote:

> > > Massive fan of my Synology - it1s been doing a great job for years now,
> > > and
> > > I1ve survived several drive failures without blinking.
> > >
> > > I have the 5 bay one, but from years back - a DS1513+. You don1t have to

> > > fill all the disks at once, but I would definitely recommend getting a
> > > model
> > > that has drive redundancy.
> > >

> > > For Time Machine I created a user on the Synology for each machine I1m
> > > backing up, and set a quota on that user1s disk space. This is a useful

> > > way
> > > of limiting the size of Time Machine backups without having to faff around
> > > with partitioning everything.
> >
> > also, get a model that supports the btrfs file system and be sure to
> > use it. not all do, especially the entry level models.
> >
> > <https://www.synology.com/en-global/dsm/Btrfs>
>
> So something like this
>
> https://www.synology.com/en-global/products/DS218
>
> or even this, if I can justify the expense
>
> https://www.synology.com/en-global/products/DS418play
>
> ?

the 418play has hot-swappable bays, no tools required, which is *very*
convenient, versus the 218, plus two additional bays and other stuff.

this might help decide:
<https://www.synology.com/en-global/support/nas_selector>

> I'm currently using - and moderately happy with - a couple of Drobo Direct
> attached storage drives, but I'm sensing the need to get some Network
> attached storage, since the choir I sing with need some sort of file server,
> and all the commercial cloud-based ones seem expensive and/or insecure.

cloud services are also limited by your isp. uploading hundreds of
gigabytes can take a while...

however, they do have the advantage of being an off-site backup.

> But all the various applications and add-on packages are a little daunting,
> though: DiskStation Manager, Synology Drive, File Station...

diskstation manager is the main os.

try it out:
<https://demo.synology.com>

[nospam]

In article <1ojnvgo.1awlg6xfqtns2N%snip...@gmail.com>, Sn!pe

<snip...@gmail.com> wrote:

> I'm considering a Synology DS418play for my own "casual user
> with four family Macs to serve and back up" case. Would it
> be an appropriate choice?

probably, but you'll no doubt end up wanting to do more with it than
you originally thought because of the many apps available.

keep in mind that the nas is still only one copy, so you will need
additional backups.

> Does the group have recommendations
> for suitable HDDs for such a device, reliability being more
> important than cost?

wd red, which are intended for use in a nas.

there is direct support in synology dsm for seagate ironwolf drives,
although last time i checked, they were more expensive.

[Ian McCall]

On 4 Jan 2020, nospam wrote
(in article<040120201242190511%nos...@nospam.invalid>):

> cloud services are also limited by your isp. uploading hundreds of
> gigabytes can take a while...
>
> however, they do have the advantage of being an off-site backup.

I used to use the free version of Crashplan, which allowed you to just do
peer to peer backup (i.e. a friend reserves space on your machine, you
reserve space on theirs...backup). That service allowed you to seed by first
backing up local storage, and then being able to use that local storage as
the seed at the remote location. In practice that meant I backed up to a HDD
locally, then carted it over to a friend’s and it became the basis of the
first backup. They then reused the drive, I took it back to mine and it
became the basis of -their- first backup. Saved an absolute ton of time -
weeks, literally.

Was a good service. Unfortunately the free layer closed down - ok,
understandable. The P2P bit also closed down though, and their online storage
was way too expensive for the multigigs I used to do.

[nospam]

In article <0001HW.23C1195B00...@news.individual.net>,

Ian McCall <i...@eruvia.org> wrote:

> > cloud services are also limited by your isp. uploading hundreds of
> > gigabytes can take a while...
> >
> > however, they do have the advantage of being an off-site backup.
>
> I used to use the free version of Crashplan, which allowed you to just do
> peer to peer backup (i.e. a friend reserves space on your machine, you
> reserve space on theirs...backup). That service allowed you to seed by first
> backing up local storage, and then being able to use that local storage as
> the seed at the remote location. In practice that meant I backed up to a HDD

> locally, then carted it over to a friend零 and it became the basis of the

> first backup. They then reused the drive, I took it back to mine and it
> became the basis of -their- first backup. Saved an absolute ton of time -
> weeks, literally.
>
> Was a good service. Unfortunately the free layer closed down - ok,
> understandable. The P2P bit also closed down though, and their online storage
> was way too expensive for the multigigs I used to do.

there are others.

synology supports syncing to the following:
<https://www.synology.com/en-us/knowledgebase/DSM/help/CloudSync/cloudsy
nc>

another option is get two synology nases and link them together, no
cloud service needed, either locally or over the internet to a remote
location. changes to one are mirrored on the other.

an external hd also works to back up the nas, assuming it's big enough
for the entire nas.

[Jaimie Vandenbergh]

On 4 Jan 2020 at 17:42:22 GMT, "nospam" <nos...@nospam.invalid> wrote:

> In article <1ojnvgo.1awlg6xfqtns2N%snip...@gmail.com>, Sn!pe
> <snip...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I'm considering a Synology DS418play for my own "casual user
>> with four family Macs to serve and back up" case. Would it
>> be an appropriate choice?
>
> probably, but you'll no doubt end up wanting to do more with it than
> you originally thought because of the many apps available.
>
> keep in mind that the nas is still only one copy, so you will need
> additional backups.

Absolutely this. If you're using a NAS as primary storage, it needs to be
backed up - RAID type disk redundancy is not backup, and nor is a snapshotting
filesystem.

When you're pushing say 4x4TB drives into a NAS to give you about 11TB of real
storage including one-drive-may-die redundancy, you need somewhere to back
that up to. That can be a single 8TB USB-attached HDD, as it'll take quite a
while to fill all 11TB. Easy basic win. Trouble is, what happens if the NAS
pops? Remember that since you're using a bespoke NAS then you can't easily
bang the disks into a PC and expect to get to the data.

What I've done in the past when that technique isn't working is have two
identical NASes. One backs up to the other.

Each time I start running short of space and need to go up in size, I put the
old drives in the 2nd NAS, then restore that back to new disks in the 1st NAS.
Reconfigure the 2nd NAS as RAID0 and set the 1st NAS to backup to them. The
RAID0 isn't perfectly ideal, but as it's only a backup it's a reasonable risk
- if a disk dies in 2nd NAS you'll need to replace it and you'll have a risk
window for the duration of the new backup.

I'm dubious on WD Red - I've replaced more of them than blue and black and
green over the last few years. The warranty is good though so all of them have
been RMA'd.

My NASes started off with two-disk bespoke ReadyNAS units, then when I grew
out of them HP Microserver N54L devices with FreeNAS as the OS, and they are
now eight-disk 2U servers like
https://www.bargainhardware.co.uk/refurbished-servers/dell-2u/poweredge-r510,
plus FreeNAS. You're looking at under £300 for the machine with an appropriate
RAID card, and a couple of weekends working out how to set it all up. Apply
your own cost-benefit algorithm :)

A side benefit of using PC hardware plus FreeNAS is that you can use any old
PC that can host your disks to read them, if you end up in a hardware failure
situation.

I realise this is several steps up from the "usb disk attached to a Zyxel"
thread starter, but this is the route I've travelled over the years!

Cheers - Jaimie


--
Remember, if something is on the news that means it's rare
enough that you shouldn't worry about it. It's the things
that _don't_ make the news due to being so common that you
should worry about. -- Stephen Sprunk

[Ian McCall]

On 4 Jan 2020, Jaimie Vandenbergh wrote
(in article<7248777583@232ce9771b384dc3b1e652692cceb1b8.local>):

> Remember that since you're using a bespoke NAS then you can't easily
> bang the disks into a PC and expect to get to the data.

That’s not -strictly- right with the Synology, and is one of the reasons I
chose them. You’ll need a Linux install, but it’s all recoverable via
LLVM on Linux.

Obviously wouldn’t want to have to actually -do- that of course.

[Jaimie Vandenbergh]

On 4 Jan 2020 at 22:24:08 GMT, "Ian McCall" <i...@eruvia.org> wrote:

> On 4 Jan 2020, Jaimie Vandenbergh wrote
> (in article<7248777583@232ce9771b384dc3b1e652692cceb1b8.local>):
>
>> Remember that since you're using a bespoke NAS then you can't easily
>> bang the disks into a PC and expect to get to the data.
>
> That’s not -strictly- right with the Synology, and is one of the reasons I
> chose them. You’ll need a Linux install, but it’s all recoverable via
> LLVM on Linux.
>
> Obviously wouldn’t want to have to actually -do- that of course.

That's cool, very pleased to hear it. I think nospam mentioned btrfs on some
Synology models too (not that I'm at all fond of btrfs, it's better than
proprietary only by not being proprietary IMHO).

And yeah, it's frankly hard enough keeping LLVM managed disks in line at the
best of times, and those times when you're doing a panicky recovery from
hardware failure is rarely the best!

One of many nice things about ZFS disks (as per FreeNAS and others) is that
each holds all the data needed by the filesystem to get the pack back up, you
don't need to tell ZFS where they are or how to organise them. As long as you
get enough of them connected whether by SATA, USB, firewire, thunderbolt, SAS,
whatever - they'll mount.

Cheers - Jaimie


--
"The dumbest people I know are those who know it all." -- Malcolm Forbes

[nospam]

In article <8054058203@d212b27bf2234f5d81a253d6d28e69fb.local>, Jaimie

Vandenbergh <jai...@usually.sessile.org> wrote:

> >> Remember that since you're using a bespoke NAS then you can't easily
> >> bang the disks into a PC and expect to get to the data.
> >

> > Thatıs not -strictly- right with the Synology, and is one of the reasons I
> > chose them. Youıll need a Linux install, but itıs all recoverable via
> > LLVM on Linux.
> >
> > Obviously wouldnıt want to have to actually -do- that of course.

>
> That's cool, very pleased to hear it. I think nospam mentioned btrfs on some
> Synology models too (not that I'm at all fond of btrfs, it's better than
> proprietary only by not being proprietary IMHO).

i did, and btrfs does snapshots.

> And yeah, it's frankly hard enough keeping LLVM managed disks in line at the
> best of times, and those times when you're doing a panicky recovery from
> hardware failure is rarely the best!

lvm.

<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logical_Volume_Manager_(Linux)>
In Linux, Logical Volume Manager (LVM) is a device mapper target that
provides logical volume management for the Linux kernel.

llvm is something else:
<https://llvm.org>
The LLVM Project is a collection of modular and reusable compiler and
toolchain technologies

[Ian McCall]

On 4 Jan 2020, nospam wrote

(in article<040120201835541670%nos...@nospam.invalid>):

> lvm.
>
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logical_Volume_Manager_(Linux)>
> In Linux, Logical Volume Manager (LVM) is a device mapper target that
> provides logical volume management for the Linux kernel.
>
> llvm is something else:
> <https://llvm.org>
> The LLVM Project is a collection of modular and reusable compiler and
> toolchain technologies

Yep - slip of the keyboard. LLVM is something I deal with regularly, LVM not
so much. But yep - meant LVM.

[Sn!pe]

Thanks, everybody; all noted and mostly understood.

I think I'll be choosing a Synology DS418 play then,
probably with 4GB WD Red HDDs. Is there a sweet spot
for drive size? Is it possible to mix drive sizes if
they're in a RAID?

[David]

On 06/01/2020 12:55, Sn!pe wrote:
> 4GB WD Red HDDs

*FOUR* *GB* - REALLY?!!!

[Martin S Taylor]

On Jan 6, 2020, Sn!pe wrote
(in article<1ojrcqv.fegc37m1svqqN%snip...@gmail.com>):

> Thanks, everybody; all noted and mostly understood.
>
> I think I'll be choosing a Synology DS418 play then,
> probably with 4GB WD Red HDDs. Is there a sweet spot
> for drive size? Is it possible to mix drive sizes if
> they're in a RAID?

Keep me posted, won't you? Either directly via email or on this newsgroup. We
seem to have similar needs and similar levels of understanding about this.

MST

P.S. I don't know where you intend buying from, but the people at
www.broadbandbuyer.com are very helpful.

[nospam]

In article <1ojrcqv.fegc37m1svqqN%snip...@gmail.com>, Sn!pe

<snip...@gmail.com> wrote:

>
> I think I'll be choosing a Synology DS418 play then,
> probably with 4GB WD Red HDDs. Is there a sweet spot
> for drive size?

8tb is the sweet spot last time i looked but 4tb is probably fine. 10tb
might be a good deal now.

> Is it possible to mix drive sizes if
> they're in a RAID?

raid 1 (mirroring) - no, unless you want wasted space
standard raid 5 and 6 - no, unless you want wasted space
synology shr and shr2 - yes, and will use as much space as possible.

try different configurations:
<https://www.synology.com/en-global/support/RAID_calculator>

[Sn!pe]

Go away.

[Sn!pe]

Martin S Taylor <corresp...@mRaErMtOiVnEsTtHaIySlor.com> wrote:

Will do, Martin.

I haven't settled on a supplier yet; Amazon Prime have a
few specials of populated boxes but can't supply; probably
just a 'come-on' for what they ~do~ have in stock...

I'll take a look at broadbandbuyer, I haven't dealt with
them before.

BTW, my addresses work as they stand.

[Sn!pe]

Thanks, nospam. Yes, of course, ~Tera~ bytes, not GB.
I remember when things were still measured in kilowotsits...

[jeremy]

In article <1ojrh1o.khmk1qj8o7puN%
snip...@gmail.com>, snipeco.2
@gmail.com says...

Just FYI I put 2 x 2Tb WD RED in my
diskstaion 5 years ago and all seems
to be good so far. Back in 2014 that
was and they were from ebuyer.com -
they are offering 4Tb disks for £102
incl VAT

--
jeremy

[David]

On 06/01/2020 15:42, Sn!pe wrote:
> nospam <nos...@nospam.invalid> wrote:
>
>> In article <1ojrcqv.fegc37m1svqqN%snip...@gmail.com>, Sn!pe
>> <snip...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> I think I'll be choosing a Synology DS418 play then,

>>> probably with 4*GB* WD Red HDDs. Is there a sweet spot

>>> for drive size?
>>
>> 8tb is the sweet spot last time i looked but 4tb is probably fine. 10tb
>> might be a good deal now.
>>
>>> Is it possible to mix drive sizes if
>>> they're in a RAID?
>>
>> raid 1 (mirroring) - no, unless you want wasted space
>> standard raid 5 and 6 - no, unless you want wasted space
>> synology shr and shr2 - yes, and will use as much space as possible.
>>
>> try different configurations:
>> <https://www.synology.com/en-global/support/RAID_calculator>
>
> Thanks, nospam. Yes, of course, ~Tera~ bytes, not GB.
> I remember when things were still measured in kilowotsits...

There was no need to be rude to me when I pointed out your mistake!

I forgive you. :-)

[Ian McCall]

On 6 Jan 2020, nospam wrote
(in article<060120200901013839%nos...@nospam.invalid>):

One tip I found useful for me - don’t necessarily expand and use all your
storage at once. I’ve got 16Tb in mine, and about 4Tb of that is still
unallocated to any storage volume. This allows me to resize as I find I need
it, rather than set everything up as I -think- I’ll need it and hope I’m
right.

[Sn!pe]

David <Da...@address.invalid> wrote:

> be rude to me

Go away.

[Martin S Taylor]

On Jan 6, 2020, Sn!pe wrote
(in article<1ojrcqv.fegc37m1svqqN%snip...@gmail.com>):

> Thanks, everybody; all noted and mostly understood.
>
> I think I'll be choosing a Synology DS418 play then,
> probably with 4GB WD Red HDDs.

Is there any reason you're going for the DS418play, rather than the DS418?

Just curious, as they're on my shortlist. What do you get for the extra £60?

MST

[Sn!pe]

Martin S Taylor <corresp...@mRaErMtOiVnEsTtHaIySlor.com> wrote:

> Just curious, as they're on my shortlist. What do you get for the extra Ģ60?

Only because it seemed to be the recommendation in here - I
guess that it does more things better but I don't actually know.
I imagine somebody will be along RSN to enlighten us!

[David Empson]

Martin S Taylor <corresp...@mRaErMtOiVnEsTtHaIySlor.com> wrote:

The "play" models have hardware video transcoding (or more powerful
transcoding), so better suited to running a media server than the
no-suffix value series, or the entry level "J" models (which I read as
"Junior").

This seems to be a reasonable summary:

https://www.howtogeek.com/348700/which-synology-nas-should-i-buy/

In this case, comparing the data sheets of the DS418play and DS418, the
obvious differences are that the DS418play has a somewhat faster dual
core Intel Celeron processor vs a quad core ARM processor, adds the
option of the more advanced Btrfs file system, and can transcode two
video streams at once rather than one (though apparently limited to 30
fps rather than 60 fps). DS418play also has the option of installing
more memory rather than being fixed at 2 GB.

The next model up in the same form factor is the DS918+, which has a
quad-core Intel Celeron CPU with even higher performance, more memory as
standard, and can attach an expansion unit via eSATA (base unit has four
drive bays, expansion adds five more, hence the "9" in the model
number).

--
David Empson
dem...@actrix.gen.nz

[Martin S Taylor]

On Jan 6, 2020, David Empson wrote
(in article<1ojt0sa.174in2okv2jyN%dem...@actrix.gen.nz>):

> In this case, comparing the data sheets of the DS418play and DS418, the
> obvious differences are that the DS418play has a somewhat faster dual
> core Intel Celeron processor vs a quad core ARM processor, adds the
> option of the more advanced Btrfs file system

Although the D218play has a faster processor than the D218, yet *removes* the
option of the Btrfs file system.

MST

[David Empson]

Martin S Taylor <corresp...@mRaErMtOiVnEsTtHaIySlor.com> wrote:

DS218 and DS218play have exactly the same processor (quad core 1.4 GHz
ARM: Realtek RTD1296), which is also the same one in the DS418. The
DS218play has less memory (1 GB) than the other two (2 GB).

Btrfs is not available on any of those three models. As far as I can
tell, Btrfs is only available on Synology models with Intel processors.

The DS218 vs DS218play comparison is a bit weird: in that case the
"play" model has slightly lower specs and is cheaper, whereas for the
DS418 vs DS418play, the "play" model has slightly higher specs and is
more expensive.

I suppose that Synology thinks having 1 GB memory in the DS218play is
sufficient for a 2-bay media centre, but the full 2 GB is better in case
you want to run more complex applications on the general purpose DS218.

--
David Empson
dem...@actrix.gen.nz

[nospam]

In article <1ojt3vt.1psm1dn2d42p7N%dem...@actrix.gen.nz>, David Empson

<dem...@actrix.gen.nz> wrote:

> DS218 and DS218play have exactly the same processor (quad core 1.4 GHz
> ARM: Realtek RTD1296), which is also the same one in the DS418. The
> DS218play has less memory (1 GB) than the other two (2 GB).
>
> Btrfs is not available on any of those three models.

only the 218play lacks it
<https://www.synology.com/en-us/dsm/Btrfs>

> As far as I can
> tell, Btrfs is only available on Synology models with Intel processors.

that used to be the case until a year or two ago. now, a select few
non-intel processors also support it.

[Jaimie Vandenbergh]

On 6 Jan 2020 at 20:11:54 GMT, "Ian McCall" <i...@eruvia.org> wrote:

> On 6 Jan 2020, nospam wrote
> (in article<060120200901013839%nos...@nospam.invalid>):
>
>> In article<1ojrcqv.fegc37m1svqqN%snip...@gmail.com>, Sn!pe
>> <snip...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> I think I'll be choosing a Synology DS418 play then,
>>> probably with 4GB WD Red HDDs. Is there a sweet spot
>>> for drive size?
>>
>> 8tb is the sweet spot last time i looked but 4tb is probably fine. 10tb
>> might be a good deal now.
>>
>>> Is it possible to mix drive sizes if
>>> they're in a RAID?
>>
>> raid 1 (mirroring) - no, unless you want wasted space
>> standard raid 5 and 6 - no, unless you want wasted space
>> synology shr and shr2 - yes, and will use as much space as possible.
>>
>> try different configurations:
>> <https://www.synology.com/en-global/support/RAID_calculator>> One tip I found useful for me - don’t necessarily expand and use all your
> storage at once. I’ve got 16Tb in mine, and about 4Tb of that is still
> unallocated to any storage volume. This allows me to resize as I find I need
> it, rather than set everything up as I -think- I’ll need it and hope I’m
> right.

With the proviso that I don't know how Synology does things, the way I prevent
mis-sizing is by having one big storage share and folders within it, rather
than allocating a disk or two to each share.

Cheers - Jaimie


--
"Who died and made _you_ Zod?" -- Sea Wasp, rasfw

[David Empson]

nospam <nos...@nospam.invalid> wrote:

> In article <1ojt3vt.1psm1dn2d42p7N%dem...@actrix.gen.nz>, David Empson
> <dem...@actrix.gen.nz> wrote:
>
> > DS218 and DS218play have exactly the same processor (quad core 1.4 GHz
> > ARM: Realtek RTD1296), which is also the same one in the DS418. The
> > DS218play has less memory (1 GB) than the other two (2 GB).
> >
> > Btrfs is not available on any of those three models.
>
> only the 218play lacks it
> <https://www.synology.com/en-us/dsm/Btrfs>

The data sheet for the DS218 doesn't mention Btrfs. Perhaps they added
it in a software update but didn't revise the data sheet?

Same goes for the DS418. The data sheet doesn't mention it, but the
Btrfs web page says it is supported.

The DS218play probably doesn't support Btrfs due to having less RAM.

--
David Empson
dem...@actrix.gen.nz

[nospam]

In article <1ojte5p.1xd2q68b8oxpyN%dem...@actrix.gen.nz>, David Empson

<dem...@actrix.gen.nz> wrote:

> > > DS218 and DS218play have exactly the same processor (quad core 1.4 GHz
> > > ARM: Realtek RTD1296), which is also the same one in the DS418. The
> > > DS218play has less memory (1 GB) than the other two (2 GB).
> > >
> > > Btrfs is not available on any of those three models.
> >
> > only the 218play lacks it
> > <https://www.synology.com/en-us/dsm/Btrfs>
>
> The data sheet for the DS218 doesn't mention Btrfs. Perhaps they added
> it in a software update but didn't revise the data sheet?

<https://www.synology.com/en-us/releaseNote/DS218>
What¹s New in DSM 6.2
...
5. Extended Btrfs File System Coverage
- Btrfs file system is now available on more Synology NAS
models utilizing ARM platforms. Enjoy the powerful features
of the next-generation file system.
- Applied Models:
18-series: DS218, DS418 and more x18 series to come. 

> Same goes for the DS418. The data sheet doesn't mention it, but the
> Btrfs web page says it is supported.
>
> The DS218play probably doesn't support Btrfs due to having less RAM.

could be, or it's coming soon.

[Ian McCall]

On 7 Jan 2020, nospam wrote
(in article<060120202250082868%nos...@nospam.invalid>):

Just to throw a spanner in the works, this cropped up today in my RSS feeds:
<https://9to5toys.com/2020/01/07/synology-ds420j-nas/>

[Martin S Taylor]

On Jan 7, 2020, Ian McCall wrote
(in article<0001HW.23C52C3C00...@news.individual.net>):

> Just to throw a spanner in the works, this cropped up today in my RSS feeds:
> <https://9to5toys.com/2020/01/07/synology-ds420j-nas/>

And does it support Btrfs? Can't find the information anywhere.

MST

[Chris Ridd]

I wouldn't be overly focussed on BTRFS to be honest. It is a poor man's
implementation of bits of ZFS, and somewhat flawed.

If you can get a NAS with ZFS, that'd likely be *much* better.

--
Chris

[nospam]

In article <qv4ios$ndh$1...@dont-email.me>, Chris Ridd <chri...@mac.com>
wrote:

> >> Just to throw a spanner in the works, this cropped up today in my RSS
> >> feeds:
> >> <https://9to5toys.com/2020/01/07/synology-ds420j-nas/>
> >
> > And does it support Btrfs? Can't find the information anywhere.

btrfs is not listed in the spec sheet:
<https://global.download.synology.com/download/Document/Hardware/DataShe
et/DiskStation/20-year/DS420j/enu/Synology_DS420j_Data_Sheet_enu.pdf>

it's possible it could be added at a later time, but i wouldn't count
on it. it's not a priority for j models.

> I wouldn't be overly focussed on BTRFS to be honest. It is a poor man's
> implementation of bits of ZFS, and somewhat flawed.

zfs isn't all it's cracked up to be and btrfs is much better than ext4.

> If you can get a NAS with ZFS, that'd likely be *much* better.

no.

[Martin S Taylor]

On Jan 8, 2020, nospam wrote
(in article<080120200832045105%nos...@nospam.invalid>):

> > If you can get a NAS with ZFS, that'd likely be *much* better.
>
> no.

[Citation needed]

[nospam]

In article
<0001HW.23C6549F00...@news.eternal-september.org>,

Martin S Taylor <corresp...@mRaErMtOiVnEsTtHaIySlor.com> wrote:

>

> > > If you can get a NAS with ZFS, that'd likely be *much* better.
> >
> > no.
>
> [Citation needed]

<https://louwrentius.com/the-hidden-cost-of-using-zfs-for-your-home-nas.
html>
With ZFS, you either have to buy all storage you expect to need
upfront, or you will be wasting a few hard drives on redundancy
you don't need.

This fact is often overlooked, but it's very important when you are
planning your build.

Other software RAID solutions like Linux MDADM lets you grow an
existing RAID array with one disk at a time. This is also true for
many hardware-based RAID solutions. This is ideal for home users
because you can expand as you need.

ZFS does not allow this!

<https://www.anandtech.com/show/13104/synology-redefines-the-nas-an-inte
rview-with-alex-wang-ceo-of-synology-america>
Right now, we have Btrfs on all x86 and 64bits ARM platform models.
More than 90% of users choose Btrfs during new NAS installation
according to our observations.

ZFS was on our list but given up for several reasons. First and the
most important, reliability. ZFS on Linux is very new. The most
important layers of ZFS source code are łre-implemented˛ on Linux
because of license issues. Second, performance. ZFS requires more
memory and the performance is not better than Btrfs in compact NAS
servers. Iąd say both ZFS and Btrfs provide great feature sets, but
the latter fits better with our solutions.

[Jaimie Vandenbergh]

On 8 Jan 2020 at 13:32:04 GMT, "nospam" <nos...@nospam.invalid> wrote:

>> I wouldn't be overly focussed on BTRFS to be honest. It is a poor man's
>> implementation of bits of ZFS, and somewhat flawed.
>
> zfs isn't all it's cracked up to be

Go on?

> and btrfs is much better than ext4.

Yep.

>> If you can get a NAS with ZFS, that'd likely be *much* better.
>
> no.

Mine are much better in most ways, basically everything except ease of setup
and physical size. They are cheaper, more expandable, more standardised,
fuckloads faster on CPU, ridiculous amounts of RAM for nearly nothing, 40gigE
capable, more controllable remotely, and have little screens on the front.
Dell R510 chassis with 10 disk slots (14 also possible), IT mode SAS card,
10gigE network.

Cheers - Jaimie


--
You can't get a leopard to change his spots. In fact, you can't /really/ get a
leopard to appreciate the notion that it has spots. You can explain it carefully
to the leopard, but it will just sit there looking at you, knowing that you are
made of meat. After a while it will perhaps kill you. -- Geoffrey Pullum

[Jaimie Vandenbergh]

On 8 Jan 2020 at 18:49:05 GMT, "nospam" <nos...@nospam.invalid> wrote:

> In article
> <0001HW.23C6549F00...@news.eternal-september.org>,
> Martin S Taylor <corresp...@mRaErMtOiVnEsTtHaIySlor.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>>> If you can get a NAS with ZFS, that'd likely be *much* better.
>>>
>>> no.
>>
>> [Citation needed]
>

> <https://louwrentius.com/the-hidden-cost-of-using-zfs-for-your-home-nas.html>> With ZFS, you either have to buy all storage you expect to need

> upfront, or you will be wasting a few hard drives on redundancy
> you don't need.

Depends how you architect your storage. You can fuck it up, or you can do
fine.

Either way, you have a backup so you can just reconfig your disks any time you
like.

> Other software RAID solutions like Linux MDADM lets you grow an
> existing RAID array with one disk at a time. This is also true for
> many hardware-based RAID solutions. This is ideal for home users
> because you can expand as you need.
>
> ZFS does not allow this!

Yes, primary issue for domestic use this. It's showing up in beta builds, so
it's on the way.

As above, if you have a backup then there's an easy but slow workaround.

> ZFS was on our list but given up for several reasons. First and the
> most important, reliability. ZFS on Linux is very new. The most

> important layers of ZFS source code are ³re-implemented² on Linux

> because of license issues. Second, performance. ZFS requires more
> memory and the performance is not better than Btrfs in compact NAS

> servers. I¹d say both ZFS and Btrfs provide great feature sets, but

> the latter fits better with our solutions.

They don't want to increase the bill of materials cost of their bespoke
solutions by adding some more RAM, is what that says to me.

Cheers - Jaimie


--
If you think it's simple, then you have misunderstood the problem
-- Bjarne Stroustrup

[nospam]

In article <13543...@948796b7deae498383a5ed2a71afae73.local>, Jaimie

Vandenbergh <jai...@usually.sessile.org> wrote:

>
> Mine are much better in most ways, basically everything except ease of setup
> and physical size. They are cheaper, more expandable, more standardised,
> fuckloads faster on CPU, ridiculous amounts of RAM for nearly nothing, 40gigE
> capable, more controllable remotely, and have little screens on the front.
> Dell R510 chassis with 10 disk slots (14 also possible), IT mode SAS card,
> 10gigE network.

none of which is needed or even desirable in a consumer nas, other than
cheaper, which zfs is not.

[nospam]

In article <13852...@8d9c381348ba4a86ba765af6ee0d9a9a.local>, Jaimie

Vandenbergh <jai...@usually.sessile.org> wrote:

> > Other software RAID solutions like Linux MDADM lets you grow an
> > existing RAID array with one disk at a time. This is also true for
> > many hardware-based RAID solutions. This is ideal for home users
> > because you can expand as you need.
> >
> > ZFS does not allow this!
>
> Yes, primary issue for domestic use this. It's showing up in beta builds, so
> it's on the way.
>
> As above, if you have a backup then there's an easy but slow workaround.

in other words, not a good choice.

> > ZFS was on our list but given up for several reasons. First and the
> > most important, reliability. ZFS on Linux is very new. The most

> > important layers of ZFS source code are 3re-implemented2 on Linux

> > because of license issues. Second, performance. ZFS requires more
> > memory and the performance is not better than Btrfs in compact NAS

> > servers. I1d say both ZFS and Btrfs provide great feature sets, but

> > the latter fits better with our solutions.
>
> They don't want to increase the bill of materials cost of their bespoke
> solutions by adding some more RAM, is what that says to me.

it's more that they don't want to pay licensing fees or rely on some
half-assed implementation.