Do we need showers?

[Martin Dittus]

We've debated this a number of times but so far tended to assume "people can live without a shower for three days."

Our main reason for potentially avoiding them is that we would need to set up ways of dealing with their waste water.

Discuss.

m.

[Charles Yarnold]

The showers I have delt with in the past were self contained units, so get brought to site and removed without need for more than that.

I had assumed the those of us going up a few days earlier would be camping for longer than 3 days and at least one shower for staff may be a nice thing...

[Fearghas McKay]

On 20 May 2012, at 23:57, Charles Yarnold wrote:

>
> I had assumed the those of us going up a few days earlier would be camping for longer than 3 days and at least one shower for staff may be a nice thing...

especially if they are doing food prep...

f

[Kate Bolin]

Yes.

While I won't say showers are a complete dealbreaker for me, they do veer dangerously close to being so.

And I'm sure I won't be the only one.

--
Kate Bolin
www.katebolin.com

[Kimball Johnson]

If you are on shift till midnight then on again at 8am (as I had at Leeds Festival) showers are near essential.  So yeah, for workers at least, i think you need them.  At leeds they did have drains, and were placed next to the staff water supply

[Mat Burnham]

If push comes to shove I think there's are showers at Willen Lake that could potentially be invaded during set up. No idea whether you'd be able to sneak in or not.

[Will Hargrave]

On 21 May 2012, at 00:15, Kate Bolin wrote:

> Yes.
>
> While I won't say showers are a complete dealbreaker for me, they do veer dangerously close to being so.
>
> And I'm sure I won't be the only one.

+1 - especially for those doing setup etc.

If I were camping up a mountain, it would be a different thing, but this is a social event ...

[Charles Yarnold]

If we were to pre-sell "shower passes" that would let you book a time to use a shower, how much would you be willing to pay?

This would mitigate the 3 main issues with showers of:

The cost of hire

The low throughput compared to loos

Needing to Q for a spot (if you booked an allotted time)

[Paul Dart]

For what its worth, I imagine adding showers will probably add around £5-10/ticket.

We are already aware that the tickets are not cheap. Does this affect your decision?

The perceived value of showers is probably more than this as a standalone cost, but this could push the total ticket price over the psychological barrier off £100.

I don't think booking slots is necessary. People either want a shower straight away in which case they will queue or they want one some time that day and will keep an eye on the queue and go when its shorter and convini

On 21 May 2012 01:03, "Charles Yarnold" <charles...@gmail.com> wrote:

If we were to pre-sell "shower passes" that would let you book a time to use a shower, how much would you be willing to pay?

This would mitigate the 3 main issues with showers of:

The cost of hire

The low throughput compared to loos

Needing to Q for a spot (if you booked an allotted time)

On 21 May 2012 00:29, Will Hargrave <wi...@harg.net> wrote:
>
>

> On 21 May 2012, at 00:15, Kate Bo...

[Paul Dart]

...convi

On 21 May 2012 08:11, "Paul Dart" <paul...@gmail.com> wrote:

For what its worth, I imagine adding showers will probably add around £5-10/ticket.

We are already aware that the tickets are not cheap. Does this affect your decision?

The perceived value of showers is probably more than this as a standalone cost, but this could push the total ticket price over the psychological barrier off £100.

I don't think booking slots is necessary. People either want a shower straight away in which case they will queue or they want one some time that day and will keep an eye on the queue and go when its shorter and convini

>
> On 21 May 2012 01:03, "Charles Yarnold" <charles...@gmail.com> wrote:
>

> If we were to pre...

[Paul Dart]

Fucking android email client. Apologies for the spam. You get the idea.

Cheers,

Paul

On 21 May 2012 08:11, "Paul Dart" <paul...@gmail.com> wrote:

For what its worth, I imagine adding showers will probably add around £5-10/ticket.

We are already aware that the tickets are not cheap. Does this affect your decision?

The perceived value of showers is probably more than this as a standalone cost, but this could push the total ticket price over the psychological barrier off £100.

I don't think booking slots is necessary. People either want a shower straight away in which case they will queue or they want one some time that day and will keep an eye on the queue and go when its shorter and convini

>
> On 21 May 2012 01:03, "Charles Yarnold" <charles...@gmail.com> wrote:
>

> If we were to pre...

[Koen Martens]

On Sun, May 20, 2012 at 11:50:22PM +0100, Martin Dittus wrote:
> Discuss.

You really want showers, that is the one most prevalent
complaints about any event: no or too little showers

- gmc

>
> m.
>
>

[Geoff Osbaldestin]

I think the booking idea is a good one, but how do you stop over-runs.......

[Russ Garrett]

Firstly, it's all very well saying "you need showers", but that's not
going to make it happen. As we like to say in #london-hack-space:
http://hack.rs/wv.jpg

At the very worst case, we can always pay for a hotel room during
setup so staff can use the shower there. So I don't think the issue is
setup.

To recap, the issues for having showers are:

- Water supply: our current budget assumes that water is being trucked
in in tanks, showers would significantly increase that requirement.
Probably to the tune of £1000 or more.
- Waste disposal: we don't have the capability to dispose of grey
water on site, so we will need some kind of tanks and the ability to
have those emptied. Apparently wastewater disposal costs about the
same as the actual water, so this could potentially be £1000.
- Plus, obviously, the cost of showers themselves, which seems to be ~£700

That comes to £5.50 per ticketholder and I think it's a conservative estimate.

In our previous investigation into showers, it seemed that
availability is a concern. So would anyone like to volunteer to look
into pricing and availability?

--
Russ Garrett
ru...@garrett.co.uk

[Koen Martens]

On Mon, May 21, 2012 at 01:03:01AM +0100, Charles Yarnold wrote:
> If we were to pre-sell "shower passes" that would let you book a time to
> use a shower, how much would you be willing to pay?

I would book a hotel closeby and not sleep at the
festival terrain if i can't take a shower without
going through procedures or hassle like having to
buy a shower pass and reserve a time

I shower when i wake up, sometimes delayed by
$stuff that needs to be done. I cant really
plan that.

Seriously, showers are not something you should
try to skimp upon. ERspecially if you plan
any subsequent editions.

[Elmar mc.fly Lecher]

Am 21.05.2012 00:50, schrieb Martin Dittus:
> We've debated this a number of times but so far tended to assume "people can live without a shower for three days."
> Our main reason for potentially avoiding them is that we would need to set up ways of dealing with their waste water.

"No showers" is a dealbreaker for me. If you don't supply "showers" that
will be a mayor issue.

In case of good weather a firefighters hose is good. We have good
experience at ccc camp with that.

Futhermore i liked the toorcamp way of doing that - garden hose,
cablestripes, everybody standing on pallets, all of that open air. Water
just ran into the ground (ok, that was desert....)

We will need some kind of shower. Does not need to be a perfect swiss
bathroom though.

If you decide that you will not supply showers villages might set up
their own. :)

mc.fly

[Koen Martens]

On Mon, May 21, 2012 at 08:42:44AM +0100, Russ Garrett wrote:
> Firstly, it's all very well saying "you need showers", but that's not
> going to make it happen. As we like to say in #london-hack-space:
> http://hack.rs/wv.jpg

Sure, then why do you ask? :)

> - Water supply: our current budget assumes that water is being trucked
> in in tanks, showers would significantly increase that requirement.
> Probably to the tune of �1000 or more.
> - Waste disposal: we don't have the capability to dispose of grey
> water on site, so we will need some kind of tanks and the ability to
> have those emptied. Apparently wastewater disposal costs about the
> same as the actual water, so this could potentially be �1000.
> - Plus, obviously, the cost of showers themselves, which seems to be ~�700
>
> That comes to �5.50 per ticketholder and I think it's a conservative estimate.

Which is still less than having to stay in a nearby hotel. I don't think
even 10 pounds / visitor would be a problem. If you want to save money,
save it somewhere else but not no showers, is all i'm saying.

Showers are part of the basic infra, something people expect. There are
a lot of things you can leave out, not provide and leave it to the
improv abilities of the participants, but not showers. As McFly said,
if you don't provide showers, people will themselves. Dumping the gray
water in whatever seems convenient (the ground, nearby ditches, a lake..).

> In our previous investigation into showers, it seemed that
> availability is a concern. So would anyone like to volunteer to look
> into pricing and availability?

I'm not really in a position to arrange this, being outside of the UK
and pretty damn busy already :) I'm just here with my 'advisor' hat on,
relaying the experiences I have: no showers are a dealbreaker for many
people. If there are no showers, EMFcamp will go down as 'the event
with no showers', and you'll have a hard time getting people to come
next time.

- gmc

[SamLR]

I can't dedicate time to this (sorry) but this was the first hit on google: http://www.poshwashshowers.co.uk/4-bay-shower/index.htm. 

For a 4 bay shower they charge £550/ week (Wed->Wed) plus 70p/ mile + VAT. They can also provide tanks and pumps for fresh & grey water at extra cost (which I can't find).

If nothing else this seems like a good starting place. 

S 

[Russ Garrett]

I have added estimated amounts to our budget for showers. Based on
this, the predicted ticket price is now £96.

Showers will not happen unless someone takes responsibility for
organising them - the core organising team is really busy at the
moment and we don't have time to deal with this as well.

--
Russ Garrett
ru...@garrett.co.uk

[Martin Dittus]

And thanks all for your feedback! :)

This was concluded much quicker than I expected.

Any volunteers for organising this?

m.

[Adrian Godwin]

I'll collect some additional information. Further input welcome, but a
more than one person contacting the obvious google hits is probably
overkill. Final organisation probably down to sanitation-man, he can
delegate that if necessary.

-adrian

[Nigel Worsley]

> Water supply: our current budget assumes that water is being trucked
> in in tanks, showers would significantly increase that requirement.
> Probably to the tune of £1000 or more.

> Waste disposal: we don't have the capability to dispose of grey
> water on site, so we will need some kind of tanks and the ability to
> have those emptied. Apparently wastewater disposal costs about the
> same as the actual water, so this could potentially be £1000.

> Plus, obviously, the cost of showers themselves, which seems to be ~£700

Don't forget the cost of fuel for heating the water, plus the extra generator
capacity if it is electrically heated.

A very rough guesstimate comes out at 1kWH per shower, something like
£500 in fuel and perhaps doubling the size of the generator.

Nigle

[Russ Garrett]

On 21 May 2012 10:53, Nigel Worsley <nig...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> Don't forget the cost of fuel for heating the water, plus the extra
> generator capacity if it is electrically heated.

I think most of the rental showers use propane, which is almost
certainly cheaper.

--
Russ Garrett
ru...@garrett.co.uk

[Elmar mc.fly Lecher]

Am 21.05.2012 12:00, schrieb Russ Garrett:
> On 21 May 2012 10:53, Nigel Worsley <nig...@googlemail.com> wrote:
>> Don't forget the cost of fuel for heating the water, plus the extra
>> generator capacity if it is electrically heated.
> I think most of the rental showers use propane, which is almost
> certainly cheaper.

Black water Tanks with a bit cloride in it (to keep it clean) in the sun
works surprisingly well if its warm around.

I just went through the old ccc pics, before we used the shower
containers we had a giant (5m^3??) black water tank and a used gas
heating from a house.....


mc.fly ...

[Nigel Worsley]

> I think most of the rental showers use propane, which is almost
> certainly cheaper.

True, a quick delve into the internet suggests something like £100-£150 of
propane.

If we could tap into the generator's cooling system we could have as much hot
water as we want for free, but I rather doubt that the hire company would let
us do that!

Nigle

[Bacon Zombie]

Hey,

I've been larking on the list but just want to add that festivals
should really have showers for both hygienic, comfort and to keep away
the con/festival killer odors.

I know Blood Stock Metal use Poshwash Showers:

http://www.poshwashshowers.co.uk/prices/index.htm

"Prices are based on a weekly rate - Travel is charged at 70p per mile
+ VAT - Luxury 4 bay shower unit £550 per week + VAT "

Maybe worth giving them a call or checking with the company that is
supplying an portaloos and get them to match.

Regards,

BaconZombie

--
BaconZombie

LOAD "*",8,1

[Mark Heseltine]

On 21 May 2012 01:03, Charles Yarnold <charles...@gmail.com> wrote:

If we were to pre-sell "shower passes" that would let you book a time to use a shower, how much would you be willing to pay?

This would mitigate the 3 main issues with showers of:

The cost of hire

The low throughput compared to loos

Needing to Q for a spot (if you booked an allotted time)

 

 

I'm happy to go for 3 days without showering but will everyone else? Some people need to shower rmore than others. Perhaps we could have a daily voting system where you vote for who you think needs to have a shower the most, and the people with the most votes are forced to have a shower! :)

[pad...@padski.co.uk]

Can we vote in now?

Sent from my thing.

[Alison W]

On 21 May 2012 16:24, Mark Heseltine <mhese...@acm.org> wrote:
> I'm happy to go for 3 days without showering but will everyone else?

Clearly, things have changed a lot since I used to go to multi-day
events where you were grateful if the loos were emptied (which didn't
always happen) and showers were a far-off dream of getting home again.
I'm loathe to add what is a substantial percentage to the charges for
everyone against the possibility that they might have a shower or two.
Logic suggests 500 people x 3 days = 1,500 showers (if limited to one
per day) which seems an awful lot of water to (a) acquire, (b) heat,
and (c) dispose of.

This probably comes down to how much people expect to "rough it" at an
event. If there was a champagne bar and petits fours I might expect
'all mod cons', but for something in a field like ours I really don't.
And that isn't because of the stereotype of the geek concentrating so
much on what they are doing that they never remember to wash or eat!

The sheer numbers game makes it unlikely every person attending would
be able to get their "fair share" of shower time anyway (allow ten
minutes per then 15,000 minutes = 250 hours: 24*3*4 = 288 so a
four-pack of showers would have to be in almost continuous use
throughout the event) whereas an 'optional extra' with stand-alone fee
makes more sense imho.

But then I do live only 30 mins away or so ...

AlisonW

[Dominic Morrow]

> But then I do live only 30 mins away or so ...

...so everyone can get a shower at your place!

Brilliant, a generous offer!

DM

Sent from my iPhone

[Alison W]

Actually ... ;-P

During the 1976 summer heatwave I lived in Beit quad at Imperial, just
behind the Albert Hall. That summer I went to the proms (all of them)
and just about every day, twice a day, I would troupe a line of people
from the queue around to my floor so that they could use the
showers/baths there !

Though I'm pretty sure even my electric power shower would give up if
it tried to run continuously for three days.

AlisonW

[Alison W]

er ... "troop", I think.

[Mat Burnham]

I'd also end up driving home/work/a mate's place for a shower  but that then presents a different problem of more transport needed if people go off to hotels etc.

Given the rising cost, an alternative option could be too strike a deal with the Willen Lake campsite to use their showers? Depends what they have on that weekend somewhat but it could work out cheaper. It is the wrong side of the lake from Pineham, so would people be willing to walk.

[Kimball Johnson]

How far are you talking? At big music festivals showers could be 15 mins walk if you camp at the wrong end. 

[Koen Martens]

On Mon, May 21, 2012 at 05:27:45PM +0100, Alison W wrote:
> On 21 May 2012 16:24, Mark Heseltine <mhese...@acm.org> wrote:
> > I'm happy to go for 3 days without showering but will everyone else?
>
> Clearly, things have changed a lot since I used to go to multi-day
> events where you were grateful if the loos were emptied (which didn't
> always happen) and showers were a far-off dream of getting home again.

Yep, the 70's are definately gone, as are the days when people wanted
to spend time with smelly nerds..

Funny how adding 10 pounds to the ticket price to give everyone a gadget
they will probably not use afterwards (if at all) seems to go unquestioned,
but basic hygiene is a prohibitive item.

Anyway, since I can not help out with actually getting those showers,
i guess i'll leave this subject be for now. For OHM we actually rejected
certain terrains because it would be hard to get showers in.

- gmc

[Mat Burnham]

1.5 miles according to Google, half an hour. Maybe less if you walk the perimeter of the lake rather than the road.

A bit too far I guess.

[Martin Dittus]

On 21 May 2012, at 19:30, Koen Martens wrote:

> Funny how adding 10 pounds to the ticket price to give everyone a gadget
> they will probably not use afterwards (if at all) seems to go unquestioned,
> but basic hygiene is a prohibitive item.

Just for clarity's sake, if there's going to be a badge it will be financed by a sponsor, not through tickets.

We very much wanted to avoid a ticket markup for shiny playthings.

m.

[Dominic Morrow]

I'm very conscious that I've not done very much yet to help with this camp. 

I'm waiting till my Derby Maker Faire organising duties are over. I think we'll need showers more than we need badgers, sorry badges or radio stations or whatnot. I've seen a few laddish suggestions here already and think we're shooting ourselves in the foot by making this even more of a predominantly and overtly awkward trollish male event than it already will be perhaps! 

Showers perhaps might work on a pay per use basis subsidies by ticket price? I dunno there has to be a few options.

If it can wait till June I can look into this then. But please if anyone else wants to sort this please do step in, I'll have the Nottinghack village to sort out anyway. 

DM 

Sent from my iPhone

[Martin Dittus]

Thanks Dominic :)

Again, at the moment (just like with badges) we don't intend to pay for any radio equipment with our main budget; it will be budgeted separately and financed by a sponsor, unless we can find someone who can provide it for free.

m.

[Dominic Morrow]

Ah sorry my point wasn't really about cost it was about effort...

Sent from my iPhone

[Russ Garrett]

On 21 May 2012 21:24, Dominic Morrow <notti...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Ah sorry my point wasn't really about cost it was about effort...

Rest assured all the effort of the core organising team is going
towards the important stuff at the moment :). However if someone wants
to buy a ticket and turn up to do something they find awesome, that's
their choice.

--
Russ Garrett
ru...@garrett.co.uk

[Dominic Morrow]

I agree. I offered to help...

Sent from my iPhone

[Kate Bolin]

Posing just a theoretical at the moment:

What if we got a bunch of shower tents and solar showers?

We can probably pick up 10 for under £250, and then it's just a matter of making sure everything's all properly organised and not rubbish.

It won't be particularly hot, and it'd be short, but it'd be a shower...

--
Kate Bolin
www.katebolin.com

[Adrian Godwin]

I think solar showers have a long cycle time while the water bag warms
up again. But maybe you could have more bags than showers, and swap
them in to keep the tents busy.

-adrian

[Nigel Worsley]

> What if we got a bunch of shower tents and solar showers?

After the first few showers the ground under the tent is likely to become exceedingly muddy!

Biggest problem is likely to be a lack of solar anything, this is summer in England :)

Nigle

[David Hulton]

I'm one of the organizers for ToorCamp and we ran into this same sort
of issue during our last event. We ended up deciding that it was too
expensive and in the process one of our partners ended up making the
bold statement that he could make the showers himself for only a
couple hundred bucks. He ended up getting enough gruff from all of us
saying that it couldn't be done that he actually made it happen.

The end result only took a few hours to construct and consisted of 9
pallets with a drain tarp on the bottom that took all of the waste
water to a reservoir drainage ditch near the showers and anti-slip
strips stapled onto the wood. Then he just put a 10x10' easy up tent
over the pallets and rigged up tarps and shower curtains between to
create 6 separate stalls and used a garden hose with a splitter and
put shower heads (which I think were actually sprinklers) in each of
the stalls. It was all pretty much strung together with zipties, rope
and duct tape. Our water truck happened to be black so in the blazing
heat it actually kept the water at a decent temperature and people
mostly didn't care because it was so hot out where the camp was that
year.

Here's some pictures of the end result:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/14397636@N07/3860017609/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/14397636@N07/3860018243/

Anyway, it wasn't the prettiest looking shower but it actually worked
damn well for costing nearly nothing and compared to going to the
closest town which was over 30 minutes away, people really enjoyed
it....

-David

[Kimball Johnson]

On a similar note, when I was camping in Kenya we have showers that
were made from buckets - it has the added benefit that the amount of
water is strictly limited! Sadly I can't find any pictures of it.

Was pretty good though, Kimball

[Nigel Worsley]

> in the process one of our partners ended up making the bold statement that he
> could make the showers himself for only a couple hundred bucks.

Not the prettiest of showers, but definitely follows the hacking ethos. Maybe we
should just provide a kit of bits and say 'if you want showers, go hack!'

Nigle

[David Hulton]

I think it's more of an issue with getting warm water and a way to dispose of the water than anything else. If you can figure that out I think the rest is easy... E.g. Best shower building contest?

-David

[Dominic Morrow]

I've just seen on the minutes update that it's been agreed to have showers. 

Sent from my iPhone

[Russ Garrett]

On 22 May 2012 00:19, Dominic Morrow <notti...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I've just seen on the minutes update that it's been agreed to have showers.

Yeah, we decided it was probably worth it. It's costing somewhat less
than we originally guessed anyway.

--
Russ Garrett
ru...@garrett.co.uk

[Tom Allen]

Looks like the waste water issue can be solved here:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/alisonwheeler/7245855570/in/set-72157629840160612/

Lots of festival shower units are set up with 110mm pipe to drain
directly into an open man hole with barrier's put around it to prevent
people falling in (drains also being crew only side of fence). In theory
you should be paying the water company for the amount drained but they
turn a blind eye to temporary events like this in my experience for
showers etc.

Tom

On 21/05/2012 8:42, Russ Garrett wrote:
> Firstly, it's all very well saying "you need showers", but that's not
> going to make it happen. As we like to say in #london-hack-space:
> http://hack.rs/wv.jpg
>
> At the very worst case, we can always pay for a hotel room during
> setup so staff can use the shower there. So I don't think the issue is
> setup.
>
> To recap, the issues for having showers are:
>
> - Water supply: our current budget assumes that water is being trucked
> in in tanks, showers would significantly increase that requirement.
> Probably to the tune of £1000 or more.
> - Waste disposal: we don't have the capability to dispose of grey
> water on site, so we will need some kind of tanks and the ability to
> have those emptied. Apparently wastewater disposal costs about the
> same as the actual water, so this could potentially be £1000.
> - Plus, obviously, the cost of showers themselves, which seems to be ~£700
>
> That comes to £5.50 per ticketholder and I think it's a conservative estimate.
>
> In our previous investigation into showers, it seemed that
> availability is a concern. So would anyone like to volunteer to look
> into pricing and availability?
>

[Alison W]

On 22 May 2012 11:16, Tom Allen <t...@randominter.net> wrote:
> Looks like the waste water issue can be solved here:
>
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/alisonwheeler/7245855570/in/set-72157629840160612/

To locate that particular item (which had slots in the sides which I
could see through to standing water about 3ft or so below) it is *not*
within the actual EMFcamp area but is the midpoint of the triangle
between the two paths which diverge after you've passed under the
bridge.

Is there a marked-up or gridded site plan yet that such things can be marked on?

AlisonW

[Russ Garrett]

On 22 May 2012 11:38, Alison W <ali...@gmail.com> wrote:
> To locate that particular item (which had slots in the sides which I
> could see through to standing water about 3ft or so below) it is *not*
> within the actual EMFcamp area but is the midpoint of the triangle
> between the two paths which diverge after you've passed under the
> bridge.

Sounds like that's not an ideal location. I do have a memory of seeing
another manhole somewhere on site though.

> Is there a marked-up or gridded site plan yet that such things can be marked on?

Not yet, but it's on my list to finish off this week.

--
Russ Garrett
ru...@garrett.co.uk

[Nigel Worsley]

> To locate that particular item (which had slots in the sides which I
> could see through to standing water about 3ft or so below) it is *not*
> within the actual EMFcamp area but is the midpoint of the triangle
> between the two paths which diverge after you've passed under the
> bridge.

Sounds like it is here: http://g.co/maps/u2924

Nigle

[Dominic Morrow]

I'll have a little look at the special maps I have access to in my real work ;)

Sent from my iPhone

[Alison W]

> Sounds like it is here: http://g.co/maps/u2924

Yup, that's the spot ;-P

[Adrian Godwin]

On Tue, May 22, 2012 at 11:42 AM, Russ Garrett <ru...@garrett.co.uk> wrote:
> On 22 May 2012 11:38, Alison W <ali...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> To locate that particular item (which had slots in the sides which I
>> could see through to standing water about 3ft or so below) it is *not*
>> within the actual EMFcamp area but is the midpoint of the triangle
>> between the two paths which diverge after you've passed under the
>> bridge.
>
> Sounds like that's not an ideal location. I do have a memory of seeing
> another manhole somewhere on site though.
>

Not an ideal location, but a lot better than a dirty water tank.

However there's a fair chance it only covers a surface water drain
that flows into the river - may not be suitable for grey water.

-adrian

[alex]

On 22 May 2012 12:25, Adrian Godwin <artg...@gmail.com> wrote:
> However there's a fair chance it only covers a surface water drain
> that flows into the river - may not be suitable for grey water.

I remember one festival I went to had showers going into a stream, and
you had to use the vegetable-based shampoo and body wash they provided
to avoid local pollution with whatever nonsense goes into shampoo.
However this ran out, and some seemed to use their own shampoo anyway,
so if we went that route we'd have to be fairly forceful about it.

OTOH It is more environmentally friendly for grey water to go into the
sewers, particularly at time of drought..

By the way I think it's a great idea to have showers!

alex

--
http://yaxu.org/

[Dominic Morrow]

This info might help. Red lines are foul water purple spots are manholes. Some other date below 

Coordinate Position
British National Grid:	488486, 241268

Postcodes

Postcode:	MK15 9LZ
Households within Postcode:	18

Hydrometric Catchments

Name:

Ouzel C033010

Police Force Boundaries

Police Force:	Thames Valley
Government Region:	South East

Westminster Constituencies

Name:	Milton Keynes North Co Const
Constituent MP:	More data

Local Authorities

Authority Type:	Unitary Authority
Census Code:	E06000042
Name:	Milton Keynes

Parishes

Name:

Milton Keynes CP

 2653968  Label = 1

Unique ID:	2653968
Type of sewage:	E
Type of sewer:	DM
Asset state:	INS
Unit of measurement:	mm
Material sewer made of:	CS
Sewer relining type:	U
Condition of the sewer:	?
Length of the sewer section in metres:	611.681
Organisation responsible for the sewer:	AWS
Shape of the asset:	C
Width of the asset in mm:	2280
height of the asset in mm:	2280
Gradient of the sewer:	927
Sewer category:	A
Backdrop invert level:	-99
Upstream invert level:	-99
Upstream depth to invert:	-99
Downstream invert level:	50.43000031
Downstream depth to invert:	-99
Method of movement:	G
Acquisition method:	U
Date of acquisition:	30-Aug-1996

 2653967  Label = 2

Unique ID:	2653967
Type of sewage:	E
Type of sewer:	DM
Asset state:	INS
Unit of measurement:	mm
Material sewer made of:	CS
Sewer relining type:	U
Condition of the sewer:	?
Length of the sewer section in metres:	1157.978
Organisation responsible for the sewer:	AWS
Shape of the asset:	C
Width of the asset in mm:	2280
height of the asset in mm:	2280
Gradient of the sewer:	1000
Sewer category:	A
Backdrop invert level:	-99
Upstream invert level:	-99
Upstream depth to invert:	-99
Downstream invert level:	50.43000031
Downstream depth to invert:	-99
Method of movement:	G
Acquisition method:	U
Date of acquisition:	30-Aug-1996

 2654070  Label = 3

Unique ID:	2654070
Type of sewage:	F
Type of sewer:	RMN
Asset state:	INS
Unit of measurement:	mm
Material sewer made of:	PVC
Sewer relining type:	U
Condition of the sewer:	?
Length of the sewer section in metres:	631.739
Organisation responsible for the sewer:	AWS
Width of the asset in mm:	150
height of the asset in mm:	150
Gradient of the sewer:	0
Backdrop invert level:	0
Upstream invert level:	0
Upstream depth to invert:	0
Downstream invert level:	0
Downstream depth to invert:	0
Method of movement:	P
Acquisition method:	AC
Date of acquisition:	25-Jul-1995

 2654273  Label = 4

Unique ID:	2654273
Type of sewage:	E
Type of sewer:	DM
Asset state:	INS
Material sewer made of:	U
Date of installation:	01-Feb-1972
Sewer relining type:	U
Condition of the sewer:	?
Length of the sewer section in metres:	479.358
Organisation responsible for the sewer:	AWS
Shape of the asset:	C
Width of the asset in mm:	-99
height of the asset in mm:	-99
Gradient of the sewer:	-99
Sewer category:	A
Backdrop invert level:	-99
Upstream invert level:	-99
Upstream depth to invert:	-99
Downstream invert level:	-99
Downstream depth to invert:	-99
Method of movement:	G
Acquisition method:	U
Date of acquisition:	25-Jul-1995

 2654069  Label = 5

Unique ID:	2654069
Type of sewage:	F
Type of sewer:	RMN
Asset state:	INS
Unit of measurement:	mm
Material sewer made of:	PVC
Sewer relining type:	U
Condition of the sewer:	?
Length of the sewer section in metres:	605.552
Organisation responsible for the sewer:	AWS
Width of the asset in mm:	150
height of the asset in mm:	150
Gradient of the sewer:	0
Backdrop invert level:	0
Upstream invert level:	0
Upstream depth to invert:	0
Downstream invert level:	0
Downstream depth to invert:	0
Method of movement:	P
Acquisition method:	AC
Date of acquisition:	25-Jul-1995

 2653691  Label = 6

Unique ID:	2653691
Type of sewage:	E
Type of sewer:	DM
Asset state:	INS
Unit of measurement:	mm
Material sewer made of:	CS
Sewer relining type:	U
Condition of the sewer:	?
Length of the sewer section in metres:	13.976
Organisation responsible for the sewer:	AWS
Shape of the asset:	C
Width of the asset in mm:	2280
height of the asset in mm:	2280
Gradient of the sewer:	-99
Sewer category:	A
Backdrop invert level:	-99
Upstream invert level:	-99
Upstream depth to invert:	-99
Downstream invert level:	51.09000015
Downstream depth to invert:	-99
Method of movement:	G
Acquisition method:	U
Date of acquisition:	25-Jul-1995

Sent from my iPhone

[Martin Dittus]

Dominic you're awesome!

m.

On 22 May 2012, at 13:56, Dominic Morrow wrote:

> This info might help. Red lines are foul water purple spots are manholes. Some other date below
>

> <image.jpeg>

> Coordinate Position
> British National Grid: 488486, 241268
> Postcodes
> Postcode: MK15 9LZ
> Households within Postcode: 18
> Hydrometric Catchments
> Name: Ouzel C033010
> Police Force Boundaries
> Police Force: Thames Valley
> Government Region: South East
> Westminster Constituencies
> Name: Milton Keynes North Co Const
> Constituent MP: More data
> Local Authorities
> Authority Type: Unitary Authority
> Census Code: E06000042
> Name: Milton Keynes
> Parishes
> Name: Milton Keynes CP

> 2653968 Label = 1

> Unique ID: 2653968
> Type of sewage: E
> Type of sewer: DM
> Asset state: INS
> Unit of measurement: mm
> Material sewer made of: CS
> Sewer relining type: U
> Condition of the sewer: ?
> Length of the sewer section in metres: 611.681
> Organisation responsible for the sewer: AWS
> Shape of the asset: C
> Width of the asset in mm: 2280
> height of the asset in mm: 2280
> Gradient of the sewer: 927
> Sewer category: A
> Backdrop invert level: -99
> Upstream invert level: -99
> Upstream depth to invert: -99
> Downstream invert level: 50.43000031
> Downstream depth to invert: -99
> Method of movement: G
> Acquisition method: U
> Date of acquisition: 30-Aug-1996

> 2653967 Label = 2

> Unique ID: 2653967
> Type of sewage: E
> Type of sewer: DM
> Asset state: INS
> Unit of measurement: mm
> Material sewer made of: CS
> Sewer relining type: U
> Condition of the sewer: ?
> Length of the sewer section in metres: 1157.978
> Organisation responsible for the sewer: AWS
> Shape of the asset: C
> Width of the asset in mm: 2280
> height of the asset in mm: 2280
> Gradient of the sewer: 1000
> Sewer category: A
> Backdrop invert level: -99
> Upstream invert level: -99
> Upstream depth to invert: -99
> Downstream invert level: 50.43000031
> Downstream depth to invert: -99
> Method of movement: G
> Acquisition method: U
> Date of acquisition: 30-Aug-1996

> 2654070 Label = 3

> Unique ID: 2654070
> Type of sewage: F
> Type of sewer: RMN
> Asset state: INS
> Unit of measurement: mm
> Material sewer made of: PVC
> Sewer relining type: U
> Condition of the sewer: ?
> Length of the sewer section in metres: 631.739
> Organisation responsible for the sewer: AWS
> Width of the asset in mm: 150
> height of the asset in mm: 150
> Gradient of the sewer: 0
> Backdrop invert level: 0
> Upstream invert level: 0
> Upstream depth to invert: 0
> Downstream invert level: 0
> Downstream depth to invert: 0
> Method of movement: P
> Acquisition method: AC
> Date of acquisition: 25-Jul-1995

> 2654273 Label = 4

> Unique ID: 2654273
> Type of sewage: E
> Type of sewer: DM
> Asset state: INS
> Material sewer made of: U
> Date of installation: 01-Feb-1972
> Sewer relining type: U
> Condition of the sewer: ?
> Length of the sewer section in metres: 479.358
> Organisation responsible for the sewer: AWS
> Shape of the asset: C
> Width of the asset in mm: -99
> height of the asset in mm: -99
> Gradient of the sewer: -99
> Sewer category: A
> Backdrop invert level: -99
> Upstream invert level: -99
> Upstream depth to invert: -99
> Downstream invert level: -99
> Downstream depth to invert: -99
> Method of movement: G
> Acquisition method: U
> Date of acquisition: 25-Jul-1995

> 2654069 Label = 5

> Unique ID: 2654069
> Type of sewage: F
> Type of sewer: RMN
> Asset state: INS
> Unit of measurement: mm
> Material sewer made of: PVC
> Sewer relining type: U
> Condition of the sewer: ?
> Length of the sewer section in metres: 605.552
> Organisation responsible for the sewer: AWS
> Width of the asset in mm: 150
> height of the asset in mm: 150
> Gradient of the sewer: 0
> Backdrop invert level: 0
> Upstream invert level: 0
> Upstream depth to invert: 0
> Downstream invert level: 0
> Downstream depth to invert: 0
> Method of movement: P
> Acquisition method: AC
> Date of acquisition: 25-Jul-1995

> 2653691 Label = 6

[Russ Garrett]

What is the yellow dot labelled "1"?

--
Russ Garrett
ru...@garrett.co.uk

[Dominic Morrow]

The yellow numbered dots refer to the information in the email refs 1 to 6 it gives information about that particular sewer I think.

Dominic

Sent from my iPhone

[Alison W]

Interesting that the manhole cover I snapped doesn't appear on there,
nor its route. I assume the blue lines are storm drains / runoff as
some feed into the stream / lake.

ps. gotta love the map geeks ;-P