Troubles with Java 7 Update 25

[Reto]

Just to let you know in case anyone has similar problems: I am using TW 2.7.1 in Chrome/Iron on Windows 7 (64-Bit).

After upgrading to Java 7 Update 25 I couldn't save anymore. I uninstalled Update 25 and installed Java 7 Update 21. Result: I could save again in TW.

[Jeremy Ruston]

Hi Reto

Thanks for the report, that's helpful - other users have reported problems with recent versions of Java 7, we're investigating and hope to have an answer soon.

Many thanks

Jeremy.

On Fri, Jun 28, 2013 at 8:51 AM, Reto <reto....@gmail.com> wrote:

Just to let you know in case anyone has similar problems: I am using TW 2.7.1 in Chrome/Iron on Windows 7 (64-Bit).

After upgrading to Java 7 Update 25 I couldn't save anymore. I uninstalled Update 25 and installed Java 7 Update 21. Result: I could save again in TW.

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[Eric Weir]

On Jun 28, 2013, at 3:51 AM, Reto <reto....@gmail.com> wrote:

>
> After upgrading to Java 7 Update 25 I couldn't save anymore. I uninstalled Update 25 and installed Java 7 Update 21. Result: I could save again in TW.

How do you get Java 7 Update 21?

Thanks,
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Eric Weir
Decatur, GA USA
eew...@bellsouth.net

"Imagining the other is a powerful antidote to fanaticism and hatred."

- Amos Oz

[Arc Acorn]

At the Java Archive:

http://www.oracle.com/technetwork/java/javase/archive-139210.html

Slightly more direct link:

http://www.oracle.com/technetwork/java/javase/downloads/java-archive-downloads-javase7-521261.html#jre-7u21-oth-JPR

Note: In order to download you must click the little bubble at the top to accept the terms of agreement first

[Eric Weir]

On Jun 28, 2013, at 1:32 PM, Arc Acorn <nutty...@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Friday, June 28, 2013 7:22:55 AM UTC-7, Eric Weir wrote:
>
>>> On Jun 28, 2013, at 3:51 AM, Reto <reto....@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> After upgrading to Java 7 Update 25 I couldn't save anymore. I uninstalled Update 25 and installed Java 7 Update 21. Result: I could save again in TW.
>>>
>> How do you get Java 7 Update 21?
>

> At the Java Archive:
>
> http://www.oracle.com/technetwork/java/javase/archive-139210.html
>
> Slightly more direct link:
> http://www.oracle.com/technetwork/java/javase/downloads/java-archive-downloads-javase7-521261.html#jre-7u21-oth-JPR

Thanks. I've also reverted to Java 7 Update 25 and can save in TW in Safari.

I assume that by reverting to an earlier version I've recreated a security risk?

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Eric Weir
Decatur, GA USA
eew...@bellsouth.net

"What is man without the beasts? If all the beasts were gone,
men would die from a great loneliness of spirit."

- Chief Seattle

[PMario]

On Saturday, June 29, 2013 5:17:06 PM UTC+2, Eric Weir wrote:

Thanks. I've also reverted to Java 7 Update 25 and can save in TW in Safari.

I assume that by reverting to an earlier version I've recreated a security risk?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Java_version_history#Java_7_updates
also see references 122-124

-m
 

[Eric Weir]

Seems indeed I do. Having second thoughts about reverting. But then, of course, no saving with Safari.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Eric Weir
Decatur, GA USA
eew...@bellsouth.net

"You keep on learning and learning, and pretty soon
you learn something no one has learned before."

- Richard Feynman

[Lei Zhang]

I met this issue too. After downgrade the java to jdk1.6, it works well.

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Lei Zhang

Blog: http://jeffrey4l.github.io

twitter/weibo: @jeffrey4l

[ryoji.k...@gmail.com]

hello.

I'm also not very sure, haven't tried it but I guess http://stackoverflow.com/questions/11976575/applet-fails-to-load-with-java-1-7-on-windows-7-if-jar-file-is-a-certain-size is being related?
http://bugs.sun.com/bugdatabase/view_bug.do?bug_id=7183450

document.write("<applet style='position:absolute;left:-1px' name='TiddlySaver' code='TiddlySaver.class' archive='TiddlySaver.jar' width='1' height='1'><param name='java_arguments' value='-Djava.net.preferIPv4Stack=true"></applet>');

could somebody try to save this tiddlywiki.html with Java7? https://testgaetiddlywiki.appspot.com/file/test/tiddlywiki_ipv4_test.html


2013年6月28日金曜日 16時51分58秒 UTC+9 Reto:

[ryoji.k...@gmail.com]

Excuse me, posting again and again.
I tried. with <param name='java_arguments' value='-Djava.net.preferIPv4Stack=true'> neither of them didn't work.
but when rewrite a line below, it worked for my case.

// Whether to use the JavaSaver applet
-var useJavaSaver = (config.browser.isSafari || config.browser.isOpera) && (document.location.toString().substr(0,4) != "http");
+var useJavaSaver = 1;

https://tsrtesttest.appspot.com/wiki/tiddlywiki%20Java%201.7.25%20tiddlysaver.jar%20doesn%27t%20work%20problem

2013年7月16日火曜日 21時44分34秒 UTC+9 ryoji.k...@gmail.com:

[Eric Weir]

On Jun 30, 2013, at 6:42 AM, Eric Weir <eew...@bellsouth.net> wrote:

> On Jun 29, 2013, at 1:07 PM, PMario <pmar...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Saturday, June 29, 2013 5:17:06 PM UTC+2, Eric Weir wrote:
>>
>> Thanks. I've also reverted to Java 7 Update 25 and can save in TW in Safari.
>>
>> I assume that by reverting to an earlier version I've recreated a security risk?
>>
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Java_version_history#Java_7_updates
>> also see references 122-124
>

> Seems indeed I do. Having second thoughts about reverting. But then, of course, no saving with Safari.ue

I have not upgraded to the current Java Update yet and am feeling increasingly anxious about that fact. I'm wondering if there's been any change regarding the conflict between TiddlyWiki and Java running in Safari.

I'm guessing probably not and am beginning to explore other possibilities for managing the kinds of information I've been managing with TiddlyWiki---contact info, reminders, annotations of stuff I'm reading, and miscellaneous brief notes.

Thanks,

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Eric Weir
Decatur, GA USA
eew...@bellsouth.net

"I can explain it for you, I just can't comprehend it for you."

- Ed Koch

[Jeremy Ruston]

Hi Eric

There's no new developments that I'm aware of. The bigger picture remains that Java itself is increasingly being abandoned by end users and marginalised by browser makers because of its security vulnerabilities, and Oracle's apparently half-hearted commitment to its future. Speaking personally, I wouldn't recommend my friends or family to have Java installed.

If you want to stay with using TiddlyWiki locally, I think that the best options are:

1) To use Firefox+TiddlyFox: this combination works well, and is likely to work into the far future. And it works on Firefox for Android.

2) To install locally a serverside version of TiddlyWiki, such as TiddlyWeb, so that you can continue to use Safari. There's a bit of an up-front investment to get it working, but you'd end up with a very flexible and performant solution. You should also be able to use BidiX's TiddlyHome, which is simpler and easier to set up

Best wishes

Jeremy

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[Eric Weir]

On Jul 25, 2013, at 12:28 PM, Jeremy Ruston <jeremy...@gmail.com> wrote:

> If you want to stay with using TiddlyWiki locally, I think that the best options are:
>
> 1) To use Firefox+TiddlyFox: this combination works well, and is likely to work into the far future. And it works on Firefox for Android.
>
> 2) To install locally a serverside version of TiddlyWiki, such as TiddlyWeb, so that you can continue to use Safari. There's a bit of an up-front investment to get it working, but you'd end up with a very flexible and performant solution. You should also be able to use BidiX's TiddlyHome, which is simpler and easier to set up

Thanks, Jeremy. Sounds like it's a case of "good riddance" to Java.

Initially my reaction was that (2) sounded interesting. After checking information on the TiddlyWeb website, though, I get the sense that it's a completely different species from TiddlyWiki, that I would not be able to use my current TiddlyWiki configuration and plugins, and that there would be a significant learning curve, indeed, that it might be completely beyond my capabilities.

Am In the ballpark on that? Especially regarding not being able to use my current TiddlyWiki configuration?

If so, perhaps I should give in an go with the Firefox+TiddlyFox combination. Would rather not, but perhaps it will more readily accommodate my current usage.

Thanks,
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Eric Weir
Decatur, GA USA
eew...@bellsouth.net

"Any assurance economists pretend to with
regard to cause and effect is merely a pose."

- Emanuel Derman

[Jeremy Ruston]

Hi Eric

I'd agree that Firefox+TiddlyFox is likely to be the least disruptive route for you, if you're able to make the switch. Older plugins that directly access the filesystem generally won't work with TiddlyFox, but the vast majority of the popular TW plugins work fine with it.

You can think of TiddlyWeb as a receptacle for tiddlers that can be combined in different combinations to make TiddlyWikis. Once you're in the TiddlyWiki, it's very much the familiar world of TiddlyWiki plugins, # permalinks etc. TiddlyWeb is pretty mature, and a lot of existing TiddlyWiki plugins work well with it. TiddlyWeb would require a greater investment on your part, but you would gain a good deal of flexibility. If you're working with multiple TiddlyWiki documents that share some information, for instance, you may well find the investment worth while -- but equally, if the prospect of grappling with installing and running new software on your machine doesn't thrill you, it may not be for you.

Do let let us know how you get on,

Best wishes

Jeremy

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[Eric Weir]

On Jul 26, 2013, at 6:00 PM, Jeremy Ruston <jeremy...@gmail.com> wrote:

> I'd agree that Firefox+TiddlyFox is likely to be the least disruptive route for you, if you're able to make the switch. Older plugins that directly access the filesystem generally won't work with TiddlyFox, but the vast majority of the popular TW plugins work fine with it.

Thanks, Jeremy. I'm now set up with Firefox and TiddlyFox.

Is there anyway to disable the JavaScrip warning once you've given permission?

I've updated Java to rte 7 update 25. Forgive my naiveté, but is it required by TiddlyWiki?

> You can think of TiddlyWeb as a receptacle for tiddlers that can be combined in different combinations to make TiddlyWikis. Once you're in the TiddlyWiki, it's very much the familiar world of TiddlyWiki plugins, # permalinks etc. TiddlyWeb is pretty mature, and a lot of existing TiddlyWiki plugins work well with it. TiddlyWeb would require a greater investment on your part, but you would gain a good deal of flexibility. If you're working with multiple TiddlyWiki documents that share some information, for instance, you may well find the investment worth while

My TiddlyWikis are self-contained, though in the past there were occasions on which I was doing a fair bit of exporting and importing between them. Maybe at some point in the future, when I have the time and am feeling adventurous I'll attempt to give TiddlyWeb a try.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Eric Weir
Decatur, GA USA
eew...@bellsouth.net

"You will be needed in the movement when you
realize that you are not needed in the movement."

- Chris Crass

[Jeremy Ruston]

> I'd agree that Firefox+TiddlyFox is likely to be the least disruptive route for you, if you're able to make the switch. Older plugins that directly access the filesystem generally won't work with TiddlyFox, but the vast majority of the popular TW plugins work fine with it.

Thanks, Jeremy. I'm now set up with Firefox and TiddlyFox.

Is there anyway to disable the JavaScrip warning once you've given permission?

That warning should only appear once for each TiddlyWiki URL, as long as your using the latest version from here:

https://github.com/TiddlyWiki/TiddlyFox/raw/master/tiddlyfox.xpi

 

I've updated Java to rte 7 update 25. Forgive my naiveté, but is it required by TiddlyWiki?

No, Java isn't required by TiddlyWiki (unless you're using TiddlySaver). I'd recommend disabling or uninstalling Java unless you use other applications that require it.

 

> You can think of TiddlyWeb as a receptacle for tiddlers that can be combined in different combinations to make TiddlyWikis. Once you're in the TiddlyWiki, it's very much the familiar world of TiddlyWiki plugins, # permalinks etc. TiddlyWeb is pretty mature, and a lot of existing TiddlyWiki plugins work well with it. TiddlyWeb would require a greater investment on your part, but you would gain a good deal of flexibility. If you're working with multiple TiddlyWiki documents that share some information, for instance, you may well find the investment worth while

My TiddlyWikis are self-contained, though in the past there were occasions on which I was doing a fair bit of exporting and importing between them. Maybe at some point in the future, when I have the time and am feeling adventurous I'll attempt to give TiddlyWeb a try.

That seems a wise approach, I hope you get on OK with TiddlyFox,

Best wishes

Jeremy

 

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Eric Weir
Decatur, GA  USA
eew...@bellsouth.net

"You will be needed in the movement when you
realize that you are not needed in the movement."

- Chris Crass

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[Eric Weir]

On Jul 30, 2013, at 7:17 AM, Jeremy Ruston <jeremy...@gmail.com> wrote:

> That warning should only appear once for each TiddlyWiki URL, as long as your using the latest version from here:
>
> https://github.com/TiddlyWiki/TiddlyFox/raw/master/tiddlyfox.xpi

Thanks, Jeremy. That one works. The one I got from Mozilla didn't.

> I've updated Java to rte 7 update 25. Forgive my naiveté, but is it required by TiddlyWiki?
>
> No, Java isn't required by TiddlyWiki (unless you're using TiddlySaver). I'd recommend disabling or uninstalling Java unless you use other applications that require it.

Following instructions on the Macworld website I disabled it in Safari and Firefox and uninstalled it in the system. Don't know if it'll be needed for anything else, but if I do the article explains (relatively) safely make it available.

Regards,

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Eric Weir
Decatur, GA USA
eew...@bellsouth.net

[PMario]

Hi Eric,
I'm following this topic with interest and I'd like to know, what you think about this:
tiddlyweb at home - a new possibility

https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups=#!topic/tiddlywiki/FNiWVM3ODRM

have fun!
mario

[Eric Weir]

Thanks for the invitation, Mario.

Looks pretty simple---compared to TiddlyWeb raw. Still have to get my head around tiddlers outside a TiddlyWiki. That would probably come pretty quickly with getting started with "the new possibility."

My only hesitation is that it seems like a lot of "machinery" to run a TiddlyWiki. At the moment I'm using TW only for maintaining contacts and other miscellaneous notes. Back a couple years ago I was using it to create, store, and organize research notes in preparation for writing a paper. "The new possibility" would be more attractive if I were still doing so.

As I understand it, there are still some kinks to be worked out? If so, I might be persuaded to give it a try once you've done that.

Regards,
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Eric Weir
Decatur, GA USA
eew...@bellsouth.net

[PMario]

On Tuesday, August 6, 2013 11:32:00 AM UTC+2, Eric Weir wrote:

Looks pretty simple---compared to TiddlyWeb raw. Still have to get my head around tiddlers outside a TiddlyWiki. That would probably come pretty quickly with getting started with "the new possibility."

Oh, hiding the stuff is not the problem. Exposing it in a way, that is easy to access and backup, is the challange :)

My only hesitation is that it seems like a lot of "machinery" to run a TiddlyWiki.

Yea, that's the other side of the medal. To get rid of the complexity you'll need to add new layers. That's the price to pay.
On the other hand, you get a "simple to run" system, that can be used with _every_ browser. ... and ... one tiddlyweb instance can handle many TiddlyWiki's :)
 

At the moment I'm using TW only for maintaining contacts and other miscellaneous notes. Back a couple years ago I was using it to create, store, and organize research notes in preparation for writing a paper. "The new possibility" would be more attractive if I were still doing so.

Since browser vendors are closing more and more backdoors, TiddlyWiki classic was using, I think it's worth exploring "new possibilities" :)

 

As I understand it, there are still some kinks to be worked out? If so, I might be persuaded to give it a try once you've done that.

Which OS do you use?

-m

[Eric Weir]

On Aug 6, 2013, at 6:11 AM, PMario <pmar...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Which OS do you use?

OS X 10.8.4.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Eric Weir
Decatur, GA USA
eew...@bellsouth.net

"We do not inherit the earth from our ancestors,
we borrow it from our children."

- Chief Seattle

[Paul Levey]

Not sure where to post this...

 

I'm in the midst of upgrading another project that uses TiddlySaver for loading/saving files (only uses saveFile and loadFile functions. Was pulling my hair out with Chrome until I went through some of these topics.

 

So, just want to mention that, though I can't get saving to work with the latest tiddlysaver.jar, I am able to do so with the earlier version.

 

Could there be issues with some of the added features that are stopping it from working?

 

In my case I can see the saveFile and loadFile functions and isActive() returns true, but saving just brings an exception. The same setup works fine with the older plugin, albeit with all the security warnings.

 

Hope this helps. Paul.

[Jeremy Ruston]

Hi Paul

There haven't been any changes to TiddlySaver.jar itself for nearly a year, how old is the older version that you're able to run successfully?

Best wishes

Jeremy

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[Paul Levey]

There haven't been any changes to TiddlySaver.jar itself for nearly a year, how old is the older version that you're able to run successfully?

 

Essentially the original one we used to include with WoaS. It's much smaller and from 2006, though signed in 2008, IIRC.

 

I just tested some older code and both load and save work fine with the old jar (and fail with the current one).

 

I took a quick look at the current Java -- didn't know about the added error methods, nice -- and see the save routine seems to be dying when it hits resolveFilename. I note that all the non-privileged calls still work. My guess is that the original code just loads and saves the file using the full path it is given. Looks like all the attempts to discover file system information throw null pointer exceptions and are what's causing the failure.

 

Where can I find the original Java BTW; the GIT repo only seems to go back to when all the extra stuff was added. (I had a copy somewhere once, but can't recall where.)

 

"java.lang.NullPointerException
at TiddlySaver.debug(Unknown Source)
at TiddlySaver.resolveFilename(Unknown Source)
at TiddlySaver$4.run(Unknown Source)
...
  at sun.plugin2.main.client.LiveConnectSupport$PerAppletInfo$LiveConnectWorker.run(Unknown Source)
at java.lang.Thread.run(Unknown Source)
"

 

As always, thanks for all your work Jeremy. I continue to want to spend quality time in the TW5 camp!

[Paul Levey]

(Of course, it could also be working because it was compiled so long ago; I haven't written Java in a long while.)

[Paul Levey]

Hi Jeremy.

 

I looked into this a bit more. Turns out I had problems with my quick attempt at a java.policy file, but end result is that I was able to compile and run (both with java 1.7.0_25) a version of TiddlySaver that is on the WoaS SVN called 'FileOps'; this is, I believe, pretty well identical to the original TiddlySaver code with the addition of some binary routines (not sure why it wasn't used; before my time).

 

For testing I set up a policy file with all permissions granted ("permission java.security.AllPermission"), just to be sure something wasn't messing up due to security settings.

 

So now that I know (?) my Java set up is good, the error I still get from every attempt at using some part of the current TiddlySaver is that 'resolveFilename' is throwing 'java.lang.NullPointerException' when called -- including simply calling it directly.

 

I don't want to investigate further if you are already doing so (really should be fixing the load/save problems of all but IE; I'm using TiddlyFox and an adaption of it with Firefox too, so thanks again!), but if you (or whomever) are not able to look at this right now I'll recompile the plug-in and see what's going on.

 

Do let me know. Thanks.

[Jeremy Ruston]

Hi Paul

Thanks for your investigations - I've virtually no experience with Java (I wouldn't know where to start debugging any of this stuff), and so would much appreciate any help that you can provide to keep TiddlySaver useful for people.

Best wishes

Jeremy

[Paul Levey]

Last thought, as I just took a look at the TiddlySaver code and saw there's a 'getDebugMsg' function (I've really been trying not to get sidetracked; should have just read through everything).

 

The error is that 'URL dirUrl = getCodeBase();' is returning an empty string. Perhaps you already know all this, but Oracle says:

 

"Beginning with JDK 7u25, an applet's getCodeBase() method will return NULL when the applet is running from the local file system."

 

So the code just needs to be adjusted to not use the call. Personally, I can restrict where TiddlySaver is writing to through permissions, so I don't think that's a problem.

 

Cheers.

[Paul Levey]

Good, because the OCD kicks in and I can't help myself :0)

 

Turns out that 'getDocumentBase' can be used instead. That gets things a little further along ... I've just compiled TiddlySaver and am checking it.

 

How do you feel about the security that was added to TiddlySaver ... if it has to be relaxed a little bit (fixable with security permissions) would that be OK? Probably not needed, but it's now stopping at some UTF-8 fix.

 

Anyway, I'm looking into it and glad to be able to contribute. Thanks.

[Paul Levey]

After a quick look, just want to mention that if the flag

 

private static final boolean restrictToSameDirectory = true

 

in TiddlySaver is set to true then everything should work (does for me). A quick fix, but it allows loading and saving from anywhere (I didn't know it couldn't; guess I've always used it for the same directory and subdirectories.

 

This is a quick fix while the real problem is found.

 

Is this where this should be discussed, BTW, and where do I send the file(s) once done? (or should I attach it here?)

 

Thanks.

[Paul Levey]

Actually, I spoke too soon, as it's fixed now. I'm just going to git rid of some deprecated code and will post code. It will, of course, need to be signed.

[Paul Levey]

Hi Jeremy.

 

I can't seem to post anything here (I'm at a fast food joint that's about to close; probably why), so I'll email you and be back online tomorrow. I'm 8 hours behind you :).

[Jeremy Ruston]

Hi Paul

Terrific, thank you very much - incredibly speedy bughunting,

Best wishes

Jeremy

On Fri, Aug 23, 2013 at 6:50 AM, Paul Levey <pvh...@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi Jeremy.

 

I can't seem to post anything here (I'm at a fast food joint that's about to close; probably why), so I'll email you and be back online tomorrow. I'm 8 hours behind you :).

[Paul Levey]

Thanks Jeremy.

 

I just submitted a pull request to GitHub with the update. That's all new to me, so let me know if I did anything incorrectly, or there's better ways to do things, etc.

 

Looking forward to a new signed jar (though many say it's better to run unsigned security-wise; in this case, I'd rather have it signed and use a higher security setting).

 

Things seem to be working well except that listFiles() doesn't return anything; I haven't been able to establish if this is a JVM security issue -- I didn't know the method was there before now! (And didn't change it, but most of the methods used the broken one.)

 

Cheers.

[Grant]

Hi, has there been any update so we can save with the latest version of Java installed?   I have save working in Chrome but have to use an old version of Java and am getting tired of the security warnings and requests to update.  I can not just switch to Tiddlywiki5 because of a very large tiddly wiki with too much formatting that does not migrate to TW easily.

Thanks,

Grant

On Friday, June 28, 2013 10:05:13 AM UTC+2, Jeremy Ruston wrote:

Hi Reto

Thanks for the report, that's helpful - other users have reported problems with recent versions of Java 7, we're investigating and hope to have an answer soon.

Many thanks

Jeremy.

On Fri, Jun 28, 2013 at 8:51 AM, Reto <reto....@gmail.com> wrote:

Just to let you know in case anyone has similar problems: I am using TW 2.7.1 in Chrome/Iron on Windows 7 (64-Bit).

After upgrading to Java 7 Update 25 I couldn't save anymore. I uninstalled Update 25 and installed Java 7 Update 21. Result: I could save again in TW.

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[Paul Levey]

Hi Grant.

We will hopefully have a signed TiddlySaver.jar that works with update 51 in the next few days (as it happens I just sent the updated jar off for signing before reading your note; once signed and tested I'll post it to GitHub).

Cheers, Paul. 

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[Grant]

Great!

[Grant]

Hi PVHL, and update?  

On Tuesday, January 28, 2014 9:29:55 PM UTC+1, Grant wrote:

Great!

[PVHL]

See TiddlySaver is now timestamped and signed, Feb 9.