Comics, Death and Sacred Cows

[Michael Bailey]

Spoiler warning for those that have not been keeping up for various reasons.

 

Shag and I recorded an episode of Views last night (actually we recorded two, but that is beside the point) and during the "recording" and after we touched on the return of Barry Allen and our mutual feeling that this is probably a bad idea.  The thought occured to me this morning that basically all of the deaths that have had any meaning in comics are now undone.

 

Supergirl (Kara Zor-El) - Back to being Superman's cousin

 

Bucky- Back as Winter Soldier/Captain America

 

Barry Allen/Flash- Apparently alive

 

Ollie Queen/Green Arrow- Brought back even though his son was doing a bang up job of it

 

Even some of the deaths that were kind of botched have been undone such as Hawkeye and Hal Jordan.  This brings up a two questions; does a character dying really matter anymore and should a character's death matter?

 

First questions first.  For me a character dying really doesn't have the emotional weight it used to.  Back in the day (or my day or whatever) Bucky's death, as much of a cliche as it became, meant something.  Supergirl's death meant something.  Barry Allen's death meant something.  The latter two led to two of the best series DC did in the '90s, Supergirl by Peter David and Flash especially when Mark Waid took over the book.  Without those characters dying two fantastic books would have never come to be.  Kara Zor-El returning didn't bother me as much aside from the costume because at least in that case it wasn't the exact same Kara as before the Crisis.  It was a new take on an old idea which, for the most part, has been handled poorly and I hope that James Robinson will change that. 

 

Barry coming back, though, completely undercuts Wally's place in the DCU.  I read on another site that Barry coming back was great because why couldn't there be more than one Flash like there is more than one Greeen Lantern.  While it is true that Wally and Jay Garrick shared the title for years it was as two different types of heroes.  Wally was the one carrying on the mantle and Jay was serving as elder statesmen.  The reason more than one Green Lantern works is because there's this whole Corps of them, so it makes sense.  I have to agree with Mark Waid; Wally and Barry cannot be the Flash at the same time and I think it is a damn shame what DC has done to that legacy over the past few years.

 

This leads into the second of question of whether or not death should matter and to that I say of course it should.  Yes, this is fiction.  Yes, it isn't really happening, but the fact of the matter is we as readers put a certain amount of emotional investment in what is going on.  This can be taken to a nigh-religious fanatic extreme ("Thank you very much, John Byrne," as Shag related in a story to me recently) but for every loud mouth fanboy there's five people who just read the books and care a great deal about the characters and their world.  To say, "Well, it doesn't matter because it's fiction," is basically saying, "You silly, fanboy.  Don't you know this isn't real?"

 

I mean if you want Barry Allen back great.  Start up a whole new Ultimates like line where everything can be like it was in 1984 and do so with a creative team that can get a book out on time. 

 

It's kind of sad that there are no sacred cows anymore.

--
This post/e-mail was written by Michael Bailey, Superman Apologist

Hey, I have a podcast

http://viewsfromthelongbox.blogspot.com

Hey, I have a Superman blog.

http://www.fortressofbaileytude.com

[ScottC]

Death in both DC and Marvel is a joke. If I was the Grim Reaper, I'd
be seriously pissed off.

I think it relates to the crutch of The Event. Comic writing have
gotten so addicted to writing a great epic and generating news and
buzz by any means necessary, it has degraded the sense of grandeur and
pathos to mere cheap theatrics.

[Cary Preston]

I absolutely agree. I was incensed when Marvel brought back Captain Marvel.

[sghoul]

Bringing back heroes from dramatic deaths (Like barry's sacrifice) is
similar to what directors go back and change parts of their old movies
(Lucas, Speilburg). While they are fiction, they are art. And art
quits belonging to you, when you send it out into society. It becomes
part of that culture. Changing it impacts anyone touched by it.

HARRY POTTER SPOILER FOLLOWS

If years from now, JK Rowling writes a story in which Dobby never
sacrifices himself or comes back to life, that will undo all of the
emotional pull it had on people that read it.

What is happening in comics is basically our fault. Younger readers
don't even know who Barry Allen is, so they don't care if he comes
back. It's those people who read these comics that are bringing these
characters back. The same generation that have hollywood bringing
back everything 80's.

This is a big reason I am latching on to side comics and non-marvel/DC
books. In Fables or Invincible or Hellboy, people can die...and stay
that way. Comics can't. Nothing that happens is of any importance.
ANY of it can be undone for the sake of someone else's plot/story/
event.

Alan Moore wrote about how none of the main comic icons can ever be
great, because their story can't end. And I have been agreeing with
that more and more. My favorite books right now: Blue Beetle (new, so
if he dies, who cares), Green Lantern Corps., Goon, Hellboy,
Invincible, WonderWoman.

WW is the only main stream character. While the Corps is a major
player, its characters are not the main guys. They tell their
stories, largely away from events and continuity.

But as long as people keep buying the major books, why should they
stop doing what they are doing?

[Terry Morton]

I agree and disagree all at the same time.

 

I think that bringing back someone simply for the sake of bringing them back is silly (e.g. Marvel bringing Captain Marvel back in Civil War, just because).  But I think that if you have a story purpose in doing so, go for it.  I think that everything that Ed Brubaker has done in Captain America has been solid gold.  Bucky as Captain America has been great, and I've been loving every issue of it.

 

I think there are still some sacred cows in comics, like the deaths of Bruce Wayne's parents and Uncle Ben.  They're just harder to find.

 

I disagree with the assertion that, somehow, Barry Allen can't possibly coexist in the DC Universe alongside Wally West and Jay Garrick.  There are 7201 Green Lanterns, 2 Wonder Women, and 2 Supermen, among other redundant superheroes - are 3 Flashes really too many?  I think that Barry Allen, super-speedy police scientist/superhero, can be distinctly different from Wally West, super-speedy family man/superhero, and Jay Garrick, super-speedy war veteran/superhero.  Just because it hasn't been done doesn't mean that it can't be done.

 

Plus, I think that Barry's return to the DC Universe in Final Crisis makes sense given that Libra, who became one with the universe, has returned to do bad stuff.  He's returned, after becoming one with the universe, to stop him.

 

Even when I was a child, I knew that death in comics didn't mean a whole lot.  I don't see this as something new.  It's always been like that.

 

[Shag]

I’m in line with Mike’s feelings.  I’m really ticked off about Barry coming back.  I even did a blog entry recently on this very topic (http://onceuponageek.com/2008/05/27/flash-back/).  While I’ve heard nothing but good things about Brubaker’s Captain America, I wouldn’t be surprised if Bucky heroically sacrifices himself again once Steve Rogers comes back. That would seem to be in line with everything I’ve heard about the current Captain America series.  That would also provide a neat bookend to the return of Bucky.

 

In regard to Wally, my guess is that Wally will actually step down as the Flash to be a parent, which will leave Barry Allen with the job.  While I think Wally’s retirement is ridiculous, it seems to have been set up recently.  How are they going to make Barry interesting?  Will they bring Iris back? Will they de-age her so she’s Barry’s young age?  If not, will they eventually give Barry a new love interest?  That would be a serious slap in the face to some of the classic Barry Allen stories.

 

I don’t think Barry’s return has been demanded by fans.  I think it’s creators who are reminiscing in the past and want to recapture the stories of their youth.  Ugh.  Come on, give us new original characters like they did in the 1980’s.  I’ve said it before that I feel DC creators are trying to recreate the DC Universe of 1984 – 1988.  Look at the stable of many of the current/recent DC titles, such as Blue Beetle, Booster Gold, Suicide Squad, Checkmate, Firestorm, Manhunter, Batman & the Outsiders, and Green Lantern Corps.  Sound familiar?

 

Also, for those of you upset by the return of Captain Marvel, read the recent mini-series.  It might relieve some of your frustration.  ** trying to avoid throwing spoilers **

 

I think Serv said it correctly in one of our podcasts, once they brought back Jean Grey for X-Factor, death became a revolving door in comic books.

 

The Irredeemable Shag
http://onceuponageek.com

---

<br

[Ronald Methvin]

You were smellied candled?  Oh, /that/ 'incensed' . . .  ;)

 

I can image the Hulk saying, "More incensed Hulk gets, stronger Hulk gets".  Not sure why that amuses me.

Cary Preston <cwpr...@gmail.com> wrote:

[Terry Morton]

I don't think Barry's return has been demanded by fans, but what good thing in comics has?  If comic plots were decided by popular opinion, Batman, Wolverine, and Spider-Man would be in every comic with a guest appearance from the X-Men.

 

I agree that it seems that creators are reminiscing about the past.  But at least a few of them have some good stories to tell about characters that haven't been available for a while.  I remember that you were upset about Hal Jordan coming back too, but I think that the Green Lantern titles are the best that they've ever been.

 

I agree that bringing Barry back kinda sucks if Wally gets shelved, but I don't understand why one has to be chosen over another.  Personally, ever since Infinite Crisis, I've felt that DC has done a horrible job with Wally.  I find him to be a really uninteresting character at the moment, and I really don't like the fact that he now has super-powered children sidekicks, since his comic seems to be more about them than him.  They're not interesting to me in the least, but I think that he should still be a Flash and be part of the collective storytelling sandbox.  I don't understand why Barry can't also be a part of the collective sandbox too.

 

 

SPOILERS FOR CAPTAIN MARVEL AND SECRET INVASION

 

 

 

Yes, I realize that Captain Marvel is a Skrull, but I don't buy that that was the original intention for bringing back the character.  I think it's a swift cleanup job for a bad decision.  In either case, I don't think it was a good story.  They only brought him back for shock value in order to boost sales in Civil War.  His return didn't even make sense in the story; it was just kind of jammed in there.  I'm pretty sure that Barry Allen is going to play an integral part in Final Crisis, and I think it'll be a good story.

 

 

END SPOILERS

 

 

Death has always been a revolving door in comics.  If you don't see a body, they're not dead.  If you do see a body, there's only a 25% chance that they're actually dead.  This is how it's always been, even before bringing Jean Grey back in the 80's.

 

The funny thing is that it was Marv Wolfman's intention for Barry Allen to continue being the Flash after the Crisis.  Click on the link for more details and read about his intentions.  http://www.marvwolfman.com/Q&A.html

 

I have no idea what's going to be done with Barry and Iris after Final Crisis, but I don't see it as something to be afraid of.  The possibility for good stories using them still exists.

[sghoul]

I can't tell if you were being funny or not. Um, Spiderman, Batman,
and Wolverine ARE in every comic. They show up constantly in pretty
much everything.

As for stories, we'll take you example of Green Lantern. Almost
NOTHING that has happened that was cool required Hal to be alive.
Heck I find him to be the least interesting Lantern in the whole
Corps.

I agree that sometimes people have a cool story to tell using a
character. But if they are dead, don't tell that tale in continuity.
That is one of the things I always liked about Tom Strong. It's just
tales. They may reference other tales, but the stories usually stand
alone. So, you can tell a great story, and someone could die. Then
later tell another story, BEFORE that character dies.

I agree with what Terry is saying about death being a revolving door.
But as this becomes more clear to more readers then it will take away
from some story tellers ability to tell a compelling tale, because
death will no longer be a useful plot device. Take Vision and Red
Tornado...no one cares if they die. Do we really want that trend to
overlap all characters?

Also, comics are a business. If they bring back a character, it is
most likely because they at least THINK we want it. In the case of
Barry, what story can they tell using him that will be any more
interesting than Wally?

Also, I think it is funny that folks are upset about Barry replacing
Wally, considering that Wally just came back himself, didn't he?

[Cary Preston]

Incensed, not enscented! Pretty smells make Hulk sneeze...

[Terry Morton]

My point about the Spider-Man, Wolverine, and Batman thing was that writing to the reader's demands is not necessarily a good thing.  I doubt that you treasure every appearance of them in a comic as a good thing, since it tends to be quite the opposite. :)

 

Actually I'd argue that most of the good things are because Geoff brought Hal back.  Sinestro even being able to be used again is because Geoff brought Hal back.  Wasn't there a moratorium on Sinestro at DC when Hal was dead because he was considered to be "Hal's villain" or somesuch nonsense?  If Geoff Johns hadn't brought Hal back, there'd be no Sinestro, no Green Lantern Corps, and only one Guardian named Ganthet with Kyle Rayner as the sole Green Lantern, since all of those other elements were considered too Hal-centric.  Hal Jordan is my least favorite Green Lantern as well (Guy Gardner's my fave), but Geoff bringing back the old elements to Green Lantern is what makes Green Lantern awesome.  I thought Kyle Rayner was a good character too, and Geoff incorporated the old without getting rid of the new, which is a good thing.  In fact, it's pretty much my argument for why Barry coming back isn't a bad thing.  You don't have to throw out the old to incorporate the new or vice-versa.

 

Barry Allen is a police scientist with super-speed, which to me has a lot of potential in the age where shows like CSI are popular.  In fact, I think that the story hooks that Barry brings to the table (police scientist with super-speed) are a better foundation for good stories than what Wally brings to the table (former sidekick with super-speed), but I don't think that they have to be mutually exclusive.  I actually think that a good dynamic between Barry and Wally would make for interesting stories as well, considering that Barry is Wally's uncle besides being his mentor.  When you think about it, the last 3 Flashes have all been related to each other (Barry, Wally, and Bart).  I don't see why the family dynamic couldn't be a part of the monthly comic book.
 

Yes, Wally came back several months ago just after Bart Allen was killed, and I recall readers being upset that Bart was killed in order to bring Wally back.

[Cary Preston]

It strikes me as a case of lazy writing. All of the things you mentioned could easily be woven into a story line over time. Instead, writers ressurect a character with name recognition and all of those threads intact. Why couldn't Sinestro be utilized without Hal Jordan? The fact that his nemesis isn't there is a plotline in its own right. The unwritten rule that certain villains can only interact with certain heroes is just silly. It creates more discord to have to "undo" potentially years of established stories to justify bringing hero X back to life than it would to have someone else take the mantle or just come up with a NEW FREAKING STORY.

[sghoul]

I agree with Cary here. None of the Sinestro Corps or any other
change required Hal.

And, while the police speedster stuff could be good, it doesn't
require Barry either.

[Terry Morton]

He could have been, but the line of thought at the time was that he was "Hal's villain," which I agree is ridiculous.  I think Hal Jordan does bring something to the Green Lantern table.  He sort of reminds me of a pulp-style hero, which I think makes him a unique Green Lantern - I'm just not particularly interested in that.

 

What stories were undone when Hal was brought back to life?  He was just brought back to the sandbox as a toy to play with, which is a good thing in my opinion, even if I don't particularly care for him.  We now have a fully functional Green Lantern Corps with Hal Jordan, Guy Gardner, John Stewart, and Kyle Rayner as unique and distinct Green Lanterns, along with 7196 other aliens.  The new and the old were fully integrated into a more interesting whole.

 

The previous status quo was that Kyle Rayner had to be the only Green Lantern in order to be special, which was ridiculous.  Other characters bring more to the table, not less.

 

The Sinestro Corps and the Blackest Night are new and unique stories, and from what I've seen so far, they're better done than most of previous Green Lantern tales.

 

With the exception of completely replacing Wally West as the Flash, what about Barry Allen coming back is a bad and horrible thing?

 

[Terry Morton]

While the character of Hal Jordan was not required in order for these changes to occur, the change of the status quo (Kyle Rayner must be the only Green Lantern, all previous Green Lantern elements are too Hal-centric) was.

 

A Sinestro Corps or Green Lantern Corps would never have happened under the old status quo.

 

On 6/10/08, sghoul <sgh...@gmail.com> wrote:

[Jason Service]

I am going to mix our geek genres here for a minute. Shag and Holly and a few others play a DC based RPG on a regular basis as far as i know. So if Holly's favorite hero/heroine character dies, does that mean she will get to play him/her again? If it were the comix, she would...in time.

 

I know that in the RPG's i ran, if your character died, he or she was dead. Ask Shag about his kid in Star Wars.

 

I can honestly say that the lack of consistency in story telling and character 'refabrication' totally chased me away from comix. I just got tired of the crappy ups and downs and gave it all up. Part of this goes back to writers getting a book or a character and writing it for 6 months and then jumping to a different book that they may like more. I can't blame them for that, but if you have a consistent writer for a solid period of time, i suspect you will be more in tune with the story overall. If you don't like what you are reading, you can clearly say that the writer is not to your taste and avoid his or her books. I just hate it to the maximum degree that when a new writer takes on a new book, they say...Wow i wish i could have written about Hal Jordan as part of Green Lantern, but he's dead...wait a sec, i am the writer, i can write whatever i damn well please and the story line for the last 3 years be damned.

 

On 6/10/08, Terry Morton <terry...@gmail.com> wrote:

[sghoul]

Hmmmm...The only one that really died was Todd's character.
Technically I think he stayed dead...in that he came back as a free
willed zombie. Mind you, I believe it was Terry who brought that
about ;)

[Terry Morton]

I played in Shag's DC game, and the answer was "sometimes."  We brought back characters if we thought there was good potential with them, but not every character that died was brought back.

 

I agree with most of what you're saying, but I just don't think that all comic book resurrections are bad.  I also don't think that all resurrections in comics are good.  It depends on the story.

 

[Terry Morton]

True that!  Zombies bring people together.

 

Pat's character also was retconned back to life (Shag and I worked together on that one), but he only made a brief appearance in the last issue. :)

 

I was the greatest offender in bringing back the dead, but there were plenty of characters who died and stayed dead too.

 

On 6/10/08, sghoul <sgh...@gmail.com> wrote:

[dug b]

I was in the game for a good while as well, and sometimes is true.

Dream Girl died and came back, but it was a messing with the time-line story that included the whole dying motif. 

Alley Cat and Top Hat are both DEAD.  Mule Team....I dunno....

----- Original Message ----
From: Terry Morton <terry...@gmail.com>

I played in Shag's DC game, and the answer was "sometimes."  We brought back characters if we thought there was good potential with them, but not every character that died was brought back.

 

I agree with most of what you're saying, but I just don't think that all comic book resurrections are bad.  I also don't think that all resurrections in comics are good.  It depends on the story.

 

On 6/10/08, Jason Service <ser...@gmail.com> wrote:

I am going to mix our geek genres here for a minute. Shag and Holly and a few others play a DC based RPG on a regular basis as far as i know. So if Holly's favorite hero/heroine character dies, does that mean she will get to play him/her again? If it were the comix, she would...in time.

 

I know that in the RPG's i ran, if your character died, he or she was dead. Ask Shag about his kid in Star Wars.

 

I can honestly say that the lack of consistency in story telling and character 'refabrication' totally chased me away from comix. I just got tired of the crappy ups and downs and gave it all up. Part of this goes back to writers getting a book or a character and writing it for 6 months and then jumping to a different book that they may like more. I can't blame them for that, but if you have a consistent writer for a solid period of time, i suspect you will be more in tune with the story overall. If you don't like what you are reading, you can clearly say that the writer is not to your taste and avoid his or her books. I just hate it to the maximum degree that when a new writer takes on a new book, they say...Wow i wish i could have written about Hal Jordan as part of Green Lantern, but he's dead...wait a sec, i am the writer, i can write whatever i damn well please and the story line for the last 3 years be damned.

 

On 6/10/08, Terry Morton <terry...@gmail.com> wrote:

While the character of Hal Jordan was not required in order for these changes to occur, the change of the status quo (Kyle Rayner must be the only Green Lantern, all previous Green Lantern elements are too Hal-centric) was.

 

A Sinestro Corps or Green Lantern Corps would never have happened under the old status quo.

 

On 6/10/08, sghoul <sgh...@gmail.com> wrote:

[Terry Morton]

Mule Team and the Incredible Carl were the greatest comic characters ever conceived by mortals.

[sghoul]

Man, when I go back and read our big cross over event...I love how I
wrote Dug's characters. Sand Witch Girl pulling off Markhiem's stone
head because Carl told her it was "Just big sand". Awesome.

[sh...@onceuponageek.com]

Quick side note about Kyle and the GL Corps.  The original editorial direction was to not have the GL Corps or Sinestro around to help Kyle build his own personality.  However, after time, the intention was to bring back the Corps.  In fact, they started working that way (bringing back Oa, etc) during Kyle's run.  I was an avid reader of the Kyle GL books.  I have no doubt given time, the right writer, and support from DC editorial that the Corps would have come back.

 

However, they would have done it without resurrecting Hal.  Oh yeah... and Kilowog.  Oh yeah.... and Jack T. Chance.  Oh yeah... and all the other friggin' people that apparently Hal didn't really kill when he was Paralax.  Not only did they resurrect all these characters, they also "reset" Guy to his old GL days.  Basically they just un-did 10 years of continuity.

 

Admittedly the GL books are great nowadays.  However, I would argue that Geoff Johns could have written just as compelling a book with Kyle and a new corps (without Hal or the other resurrected characters). 

 

Shag

 

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: [The Unique Geek] Re: Comics, Death and Sacred Cows

[Ed]

I like Kyle.

E

[Terry Morton]

I Byrne-stole the Kyle books for a long period of time, and they sort of created a GL Corps for a mini-series where Kyle gave a Green Lantern ring to a despot who used it to conquer his galaxy.  After that was resolved, there was pretty much a feeling of "I'll never try that again."

 

Oa came back as a playpen for the Guardians who had been turned into children, along with Dark Kilowog, in The Last Will and Testament of Hal Jordan.

 

Had Geoff Johns not come in and changed the status quo, I'm sure that after a period of several years there would have been a Green Lantern Corps (such is the nature of serialized fiction), but I don't think it would have been any time soon.  I prefer Guy Gardner Green Lantern to Guy Gardner Vuldarian Warrior, but I would have liked him to keep his alien powers along with being a Green Lantern.  Still, it sure beats having him dead in Our Worlds at War.  Those old Warrior stories still happened, though, but, yeah, that was a pretty harsh reset.

 

Yes, Geoff could have re-created the Corps with a bunch of brand new characters, and nobody would have cared.  There'd still be no Sinestro Corps, since Sinestro was dead too.  Thankfully, he came up with a better idea.

 

It's easy to use hindsight to make like Geoff didn't change the status quo, but it's not exactly true.  I like Kyle, but I didn't like him as the one and only Green Lantern.  If Geoff hadn't come along, we may have gotten a Green Lantern Corps over a period of years, instead of having awesome Green Lantern stories now.
 

[Ronald Methvin]

There is always teh option of an alternate reality version of a character coming back, both in RPG and comics.  I think alt real, or clone (sometimes), can be a beter way of 'resurrecting' a character than actually resurrecting them.  Then you can have the 'he is him, but isn't /really/ him' aspect.  Thoughts?

 

Yeah, the Cap Marv thing isn't great, but at least they have stated he /will/ die of cancer, since has already been exposed.  That death-clock at least adds something that Hal, Ollie, Jean, etc. didn't have.

dug b <cloc...@yahoo.com> wrote:

[Ronald Methvin]

Danger Dog, anyone?

[Terry Morton]

He's still out there!!!!

 

Of course, him being dead in the first place was due to a retcon on my part, albeit a logical retcon.

 

On 6/10/08, Ronald Methvin <rwm...@yahoo.com> wrote:

[Terry Morton]

I'd rather bring a "dead" character back from the grave than have an alternate universe versions of that character brought into a story.

 

At that point, you start getting into an X-Men level of complication with character's histories.  Pre-Crisis Black Canary anyone?

 

On 6/10/08, Ronald Methvin <rwm...@yahoo.com> wrote:

[Todd Elliott]

How about bringing back a dead character to lure someone into playing again?  Degree anyone?  Get out of my way...