Opinion on a Wireless choice

[Pete Eaton]

Kia ora all.

 

Like a large number of schools, we have been through the WSNUP process and have a Ruckus system of R600 APs across the school.

Our particular situation of having a small number of students relative to how large our school is physically, means that we have APs that have to service up to 4 class rooms.  This is because the formula for APs is related to student numbers.

We are moving to 1:1, starting with half the school next year and this may mean that our existing APs may see 70-140 clients at times - way too many.

To improve this, we need to increase the number of APs we have drastically: by my count we may need an additional 6 APs at least, which still doesn't bring us close to the ideal 1 AP per room.

I have two real options that I'd like to hear opinions on:

Purchase an additional 6 more r600/610 APs and Zone Director licenses for approx. $6k-$8k.

Sell our exisiting 8 r600 APs and buy a Ubiquity 3x3 AP per class room.   This won't cost us any money (the 2nd hand value of our existing APs would pretty much cover the roll out of new Unifi APs) 

I understand that per AP the Ruckus are more desirable for a number of reasons, but the Unifi approach would allow us to achieve an AP per room for essentially no cost.  I would take a Unifi 3x3 AP seeing at most 50 clients over a Ruckus 3x3 seeing 100-120 clients in almost any case.  If I were only a couple short and had the licenses for it, then adding an additional couple of APs would be an easy choice.  However our particular situation is that our APs provide almost adequate coverage is a long way from the throughput and density we need to cope with the requirements of 1:1.

Thoughts?

Pete

[Mike Etheridge]

So you only got licenses for the Zone Director to match the number of APs deployed? We got some extra in the package as I recall, would have to check to be certain.

Mike

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[Craig Knights]

I find the R600's get weird at about 50 clients.  

One thing to look at that probably won't help your sums much is that a Ruckus vSZ virtual controller lets you buy licenses one at a time rather than in set multiples.

We've ended up nearly 1 R600 per room anyway.

ta

Craig

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[Pete Eaton]

We have 3 spare licenses, not enough for the quantity of extra APs we need.

Pete

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[Pete Eaton]

Thanks Craig - will look at that for licensing ad that will help the numbers a bit.  Dense schools end up pretty close to an AP per room, the situation at this school is extreme in the gap between physical layout and student numbers.

Pete

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[Mike Etheridge]

What do you mean by weird? I have been experiencing weirdness with the r600s, we have had 56 from the get go, and although generally pretty good, every now and then one drops off for 5 minutes or so.

The person who configured them (or didn’t, maybe) did not do a wonderful job, I’d have to say. The config they (the r600s) came with looked like factory, not set up sensibly for our site IMHO.

Mike

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[Pete Eaton]

I'm a little the same as you Mike:  I think that our wireless roll out was not very well optimised and there are definitely changes I have made (some really simple, like 2.4Ghz output level and channels for overlap) and need to make to make the best of what we have: I just want to check whether it is worth me putting in the effort to do so before I move on.

Pete

On Fri, Jun 2, 2017 at 2:18 PM, Mike Etheridge <mi...@etheridge.co.nz> wrote:

What do you mean by weird? I have been experiencing weirdness with the r600s, we have had 56 from the get go, and although generally pretty good, every now and then one drops off for 5 minutes or so.

The person who configured them (or didn’t, maybe) did not do a wonderful job, I’d have to say. The config they (the r600s) came with looked like factory, not set up sensibly for our site IMHO.

Mike

On 2/06/2017, at 2:08 PM, Craig Knights <craig....@gmail.com> wrote:

I find the R600's get weird at about 50 clients.  

One thing to look at that probably won't help your sums much is that a Ruckus vSZ virtual controller lets you buy licenses one at a time rather than in set multiples.

We've ended up nearly 1 R600 per room anyway.

ta

Craig

On Fri, Jun 2, 2017 at 2:04 PM, Pete Eaton <eaton...@gmail.com> wrote:

Kia ora all.

 

Like a large number of schools, we have been through the WSNUP process and have a Ruckus system of R600 APs across the school.

Our particular situation of having a small number of students relative to how large our school is physically, means that we have APs that have to service up to 4 class rooms.  This is because the formula for APs is related to student numbers.

We are moving to 1:1, starting with half the school next year and this may mean that our existing APs may see 70-140 clients at times - way too many.

To improve this, we need to increase the number of APs we have drastically: by my count we may need an additional 6 APs at least, which still doesn't bring us close to the ideal 1 AP per room.

I have two real options that I'd like to hear opinions on:

Purchase an additional 6 more r600/610 APs and Zone Director licenses for approx. $6k-$8k.

Sell our exisiting 8 r600 APs and buy a Ubiquity 3x3 AP per class room.   This won't cost us any money (the 2nd hand value of our existing APs would pretty much cover the roll out of new Unifi APs) 

I understand that per AP the Ruckus are more desirable for a number of reasons, but the Unifi approach would allow us to achieve an AP per room for essentially no cost.  I would take a Unifi 3x3 AP seeing at most 50 clients over a Ruckus 3x3 seeing 100-120 clients in almost any case.  If I were only a couple short and had the licenses for it, then adding an additional couple of APs would be an easy choice.  However our particular situation is that our APs provide almost adequate coverage is a long way from the throughput and density we need to cope with the requirements of 1:1.

Thoughts?

Pete

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[Andrew Godfrey]

On 2 June 2017 at 14:08, Craig Knights <craig....@gmail.com> wrote:

I find the R600's get weird at about 50 clients.

We often have between 50 and 100 on some of our r600 or 7982 units with no problems. I have really tied them down with isolation though as modern OSs can be quite chatty. (And then there the the occasional SMB security risks ;-)

Andrew Godfrey  |  Network Manager

[Craig Knights]

>>What do you mean by weird? I have been experiencing weirdness with the r600s, we have had 56 from the get go, and although generally pretty good, every now and then one drops off for 5 minutes or so.

I just mean they don't service much over 50 clients at a time very well, especially if some are through the wall..

>>The person who configured them (or didn’t, maybe) did not do a wonderful job, I’d have to say. The config they (the r600s) came with looked like factory, not set up sensibly for our site IMHO.

We had to turn on proxy-arp on ours, as we have a very flat and broadcast ridden network.  That made a massive difference in overall performance.

We're stuck on older firmware at present as I need to split off the old 7363's in the boarding house to an old ZoneDirector so I can upgrade this side of the road to the latest virtualised controller software..

ta

Craig

On Fri, Jun 2, 2017 at 2:18 PM, Mike Etheridge <mi...@etheridge.co.nz> wrote:

What do you mean by weird? I have been experiencing weirdness with the r600s, we have had 56 from the get go, and although generally pretty good, every now and then one drops off for 5 minutes or so.

The person who configured them (or didn’t, maybe) did not do a wonderful job, I’d have to say. The config they (the r600s) came with looked like factory, not set up sensibly for our site IMHO.

Mike

On 2/06/2017, at 2:08 PM, Craig Knights <craig....@gmail.com> wrote:

I find the R600's get weird at about 50 clients.  

One thing to look at that probably won't help your sums much is that a Ruckus vSZ virtual controller lets you buy licenses one at a time rather than in set multiples.

We've ended up nearly 1 R600 per room anyway.

ta

Craig

On Fri, Jun 2, 2017 at 2:04 PM, Pete Eaton <eaton...@gmail.com> wrote:

Kia ora all.

 

Like a large number of schools, we have been through the WSNUP process and have a Ruckus system of R600 APs across the school.

Our particular situation of having a small number of students relative to how large our school is physically, means that we have APs that have to service up to 4 class rooms.  This is because the formula for APs is related to student numbers.

We are moving to 1:1, starting with half the school next year and this may mean that our existing APs may see 70-140 clients at times - way too many.

To improve this, we need to increase the number of APs we have drastically: by my count we may need an additional 6 APs at least, which still doesn't bring us close to the ideal 1 AP per room.

I have two real options that I'd like to hear opinions on:

Purchase an additional 6 more r600/610 APs and Zone Director licenses for approx. $6k-$8k.

Sell our exisiting 8 r600 APs and buy a Ubiquity 3x3 AP per class room.   This won't cost us any money (the 2nd hand value of our existing APs would pretty much cover the roll out of new Unifi APs) 

I understand that per AP the Ruckus are more desirable for a number of reasons, but the Unifi approach would allow us to achieve an AP per room for essentially no cost.  I would take a Unifi 3x3 AP seeing at most 50 clients over a Ruckus 3x3 seeing 100-120 clients in almost any case.  If I were only a couple short and had the licenses for it, then adding an additional couple of APs would be an easy choice.  However our particular situation is that our APs provide almost adequate coverage is a long way from the throughput and density we need to cope with the requirements of 1:1.

Thoughts?

Pete

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[Craig Knights]

Ah yes, been meaning to dig into the isolation stuff again.  Interesting.

ta

Craig.

--

[Andrew Godfrey]

On 2 June 2017 at 14:04, Pete Eaton <eaton...@gmail.com> wrote:

To improve this, we need to increase the number of APs we have drastically: by my count we may need an additional 6 APs at least, which still doesn't bring us close to the ideal 1 AP per room.

Our Nelson blocks (2 storie wooden) only have 1 AP per 2 classrooms on average but I've had to increase closer to 1:1 in the concrete blocks for 5GHz coverage where I've also turned off 2.4GHz for half the AP's otherwise you start getting even more client/client interference.

[Alistair Baird]

We have about 2  classrooms per AP, sometimes 3, but the wireless is solid. The one AP in the Gym gets to configured capacity (100 users) when there's an assembly, but if I need it, I just remote in via data and drop the student wifi SSID, then I'm straight on the staff wifi, turn the student wifi back on and I'm still connected fine (just did it to test), But then the students shouldn't be actually using it anyway, just connected on standby

Ours was set up initially by the previous tech, who schooled himself up, then the WSNUP just copied the config. Might be worth getting your WSNUP supplier to remote in when it's busy and do some optimising. Our wireless supplier was Think Wireless, they seemed pretty helpful to deal with and knew Ruckus very well..

Alistair Baird

IT Manager

St Peters College 

p 06 354 4198

m 021 482 937

e bai...@stpeterspn.school.nz

[Andrew Godfrey]

On 2 June 2017 at 14:28, Craig Knights <craig....@gmail.com> wrote:

We're stuck on older firmware at present as I need to split off the old 7363's in the boarding house

Ah yes: Our wireless got so much better when we managed to get rid of those old 7363 units and could upgrade the firmware. Our firmware upgrade path is now being held up by our 7792 outside units.

[Alistair Baird]

FYI we'er running Version9.13.1.0 build 26 on r600's and 6 7372's

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[Andrew Godfrey]

On 2 June 2017 at 14:31, Craig Knights <craig....@gmail.com> wrote:

Ah yes, been meaning to dig into the isolation stuff again.  Interesting.

BYOD devices only need to get to the firewall/router and DHCP servers hanging on the same vlan.

[Craig Knights]

that's very useful intel thanks, I'll definitely get onto it!

Craig

   

--

[Craig Knights]

and the print server perhaps?

Craig

--

[Alistair Baird]

No way, we don't let BYOD print.

On 2 June 2017 at 14:43, Craig Knights <craig....@gmail.com> wrote:

and the print server perhaps?

Craig

On Fri, Jun 2, 2017 at 2:40 PM, Andrew Godfrey <godf...@burnside.school.nz> wrote:

On 2 June 2017 at 14:31, Craig Knights <craig....@gmail.com> wrote:

Ah yes, been meaning to dig into the isolation stuff again.  Interesting.

BYOD devices only need to get to the firewall/router and DHCP servers hanging on the same vlan.

Andrew Godfrey  |  Network Manager

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[Andrew Godfrey]

On 2 June 2017 at 14:43, Craig Knights <craig....@gmail.com> wrote:

and the print server perhaps?

Its on the main vlan so the IP is different but the MAC they need to communicate is still only the router MAC. 

[Andrew Godfrey]

On 2 June 2017 at 14:44, Alistair Baird <bai...@stpeterspn.school.nz> wrote:

No way, we don't let BYOD print.

Submitting pdf via papercut server is the way we let students print.

They have to pay for each print job so we don't have them going silly with it.

[Paul Batchelor]

Hi all,

This chap may be able to assist.

Here is a reference to the only external independent WiFi qualified ( CWNE ) Consultant in NZ…also Cisco CCIE.

Phil Sosaya, CWNE. CCIE (R&S).
Network and Mobility Consultant

Netbridge Ltd

Mobile: +64-27-599-0004  

Web: www.netbridge.co.nz

Blog: www.invisiblecables.com

Regards Paul

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[Craig Knights]

We have students getting around Papercut by using USB keys and USB cables direct..  little thieving mumble mumbles...

--

[Andrew Godfrey]

If you're looking at planning and tracking manual setting of 2.4GHz channels, here's a google drawing that we use in planning and documenting.

This is for viewing the whole school, two stories at once but we also have a document for each floor in each building for setting a more accurate location.

https://docs.google.com/drawings/d/1XRZv5dU9CDFkSz6WPeo8JP7LdYOVZeWhrpiMohpq6ng/edit?usp=sharing

Andrew Godfrey  |  Network Manager

[Alistair Baird]

We use Equitrac - picks up USB's plugged into the copiers and photocopying.

On 2 June 2017 at 14:51, Craig Knights <craig....@gmail.com> wrote:

We have students getting around Papercut by using USB keys and USB cables direct..  little thieving mumble mumbles...

On Fri, Jun 2, 2017 at 2:48 PM, Andrew Godfrey <godf...@burnside.school.nz> wrote:

On 2 June 2017 at 14:44, Alistair Baird <bai...@stpeterspn.school.nz> wrote:

No way, we don't let BYOD print.

Submitting pdf via papercut server is the way we let students print.

They have to pay for each print job so we don't have them going silly with it.

Andrew Godfrey  |  Network Manager

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[Andrew Godfrey]

Can you turn off the USB service for printers that don't need it? It's only one-person printers that we have USB enabled for.

They can still print from USB keys on the copiers but they have to log in to the copier first.

Andrew Godfrey  |  Network Manager

On 2 June 2017 at 14:51, Craig Knights <craig....@gmail.com> wrote:

We have students getting around Papercut by using USB keys and USB cables direct..  little thieving mumble mumbles...

On Fri, Jun 2, 2017 at 2:48 PM, Andrew Godfrey <godf...@burnside.school.nz> wrote:

On 2 June 2017 at 14:44, Alistair Baird <bai...@stpeterspn.school.nz> wrote:

No way, we don't let BYOD print.

Submitting pdf via papercut server is the way we let students print.

They have to pay for each print job so we don't have them going silly with it.

Andrew Godfrey  |  Network Manager

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[Simon Wright]

Interesting thread.

We missed out on being WNSUP'd, but recently though we have had TorqueIP in to audit our network for WSNUP. The ministry say they aren't committing to doing it. Its just a cost exercise.

We did our own Wifi rollout coming up 5 years ago with Aerohive, which was essentially 1 AP per 2 rooms. After the first 3 years, i did look into going Ubiquiti as the cost to do a rollout of it at 1 AP per room was only marginally more than the licence renewal cost for Aerohive.  knew of one other local school which was using ubququiti, though, they have now moved away. In the end we opted not to because their products and certain features werent available at the time.

Now though, their latest APs and continually updating software (with no licensing cost) just gets better and better.

I'm looking at using Ubiquiti at our hostel as a bit of a test bed.

As of writing this, i see there are 18 new messages in the thread. I need to type faster.

Regards
Simon Wright
ICT Manager

Best for boys through the right learning
2 Arthur Street, Dunedin, 9016, New Zealand p: 03 477 5527 | f: 03 477 5468 | c: 021 773 229 | w: obhs.school.nz

Respect - Whakaute | Courage - Toa | Honour - Hōnore | Perseverance - Manawanui | Excellence - Hiranga

On 2 June 2017 at 14:21, Pete Eaton <eaton...@gmail.com> wrote:

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[Mike Etheridge]

I know someone posted somewhere a while ago on how they did this, but has anyone put a letsencrypt certificate on their Ruckus Zone Director? Have you got a how-to?

Cheers

Mike

[Nick Steenson]

Hi,

That was me. It's still a little janky, and these instructions are quite old, it's a much easier implementation now (for the certificate generation side, you still have to "spoof" DNS)

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1LZU2ERUvYvMge8AReRhCGmYUpINVXbuG-Pkjexd0cyc/edit?usp=sharing

Basically:

1. Get the request file from ZD.

2. Create a headless linux server, get the certificate to THAT server using the DNS/subdomain you use for ZD.

3. Change DNS back to point at the ZD and upload that certificate there.

Nick

Mike

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Nick Steenson ICT Technician Mt Aspiring College p: +643 443 0463 (Ext 830) a: Plantation Rd, Wanaka 9305 e: stee...@mtaspiring.school.nz

[Nick Steenson]

I've just read through my instructions again. You might need to read them pretty critically, I'll re-write them in the next week or so, I have a cert expiring then anyway.

Nick

[Mike Etheridge]

Cheers, probably won’t get on to it before then anyway. Just remembered I still needed to do it when getting a cert for an Apache server.

Mike

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[Pete Eaton]

Thanks for all the responses so far. To summarise:

We think that 1 Ruckus AP per pair of classrooms, under the best conditions is likely to be able to manage, based on our experiences. 

The bit we haven't really gotten to is whether this will either be better performance or have a higher chance of success than a Unifi AP per room and $6k in the bank.

Pete

Sent from my iPhone

[Simon Wright]

Yes, would be good to know if there are any schools really utilising Ubiquiti unifi, especially with their newer APs.

Or are all schools just ruckus? (except us, for now).

Regards
Simon Wright
ICT Manager

Best for boys through the right learning
2 Arthur Street, Dunedin, 9016, New Zealand p: 03 477 5527 | f: 03 477 5468 | c: 021 773 229 | w: obhs.school.nz

Respect - Whakaute | Courage - Toa | Honour - Hōnore | Perseverance - Manawanui | Excellence - Hiranga

On 2 June 2017 at 16:03, Pete Eaton <eaton...@gmail.com> wrote:

Thanks for all the responses so far. To summarise:

We think that 1 Ruckus AP per pair of classrooms, under the best conditions is likely to be able to manage, based on our experiences. 

The bit we haven't really gotten to is whether this will either be better performance or have a higher chance of success than a Unifi AP per room and $6k in the bank.

Pete

Sent from my iPhone

On 2/06/2017, at 3:46 PM, Mike Etheridge <mi...@etheridge.co.nz> wrote:

Cheers, probably won’t get on to it before then anyway. Just remembered I still needed to do it when getting a cert for an Apache server.

Mike

On 2/06/2017, at 3:40 PM, Nick Steenson <stee...@mtaspiring.school.nz> wrote:

I've just read through my instructions again. You might need to read them pretty critically, I'll re-write them in the next week or so, I have a cert expiring then anyway.

Nick

On 2 June 2017 at 15:38, Nick Steenson <steensonn@mtaspiring.school.nz> wrote:

Hi,

That was me. It's still a little janky, and these instructions are quite old, it's a much easier implementation now (for the certificate generation side, you still have to "spoof" DNS)

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1LZU2ERUvYvMge8AReRhCGmYUpINVXbuG-Pkjexd0cyc/edit?usp=sharing

Basically:

1. Get the request file from ZD.

2. Create a headless linux server, get the certificate to THAT server using the DNS/subdomain you use for ZD.

3. Change DNS back to point at the ZD and upload that certificate there.

Nick

On 2 June 2017 at 15:24, Mike Etheridge <mi...@etheridge.co.nz> wrote:

I know someone posted somewhere a while ago on how they did this, but has anyone put a letsencrypt certificate on their Ruckus Zone Director? Have you got a how-to?

Cheers

Mike

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[Julian Davison]

I'm certainly aware of others with aerohive, and many that took the WSNUP carrot to Ruckus  from Unifi (some of which seemingly plan to leave Ruckus if/when they need to pay full costs to upgrade). 

Few of those places are represented here though... 

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[Simon Wright]

Well this is what's on my mind if we end up going through wnsup and get ruckus with ~1 AP per room. the upfront cost may not be so bad with the MoE front a good portion of the cost, but in a few years time when we have to renew, i hate to think what its going to cost!

I would rather that money go into upgrading the APs than just paying for "licensing".

Regards
Simon Wright
ICT Manager

Best for boys through the right learning
2 Arthur Street, Dunedin, 9016, New Zealand p: 03 477 5527 | f: 03 477 5468 | c: 021 773 229 | w: obhs.school.nz

Respect - Whakaute | Courage - Toa | Honour - Hōnore | Perseverance - Manawanui | Excellence - Hiranga

[Pete Eaton]

That's the other thing I haven't raised yet Simon: that the upgrade cost when the subsidised licensing/install cost isn't available is going to prevent us staying with Ruckus: our student numbers to AP ratio means we simply could not justify the expense of Ruckus again.

Pete

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[Simon Wright]

We got hit a little harder when our Aerohive's came up for renewal as Aerohive no longer do any form of Education pricing! We got a really good deal when we first got them, but now even if we add one here or there, its 2-3 times the cost of the likes of ubiquiti.

Regards
Simon Wright
ICT Manager

Best for boys through the right learning
2 Arthur Street, Dunedin, 9016, New Zealand p: 03 477 5527 | f: 03 477 5468 | c: 021 773 229 | w: obhs.school.nz

Respect - Whakaute | Courage - Toa | Honour - Hōnore | Perseverance - Manawanui | Excellence - Hiranga

[Bevan McNaughton]

Printing over WiFi: iOS devices are the worst, however we have students who on request will get the PaperCut agent installed to do so. Windows and Mac users can only print with PaperCut as the only exposed I.P for printing on the student VLAN is the PaperCut servers so they can't bypass it. Alternatively E-Mail to Print is their other option with Office Documents, images and PDF. USB I believe is locked down however haven't had a need to test it yet as it's up to departments who have onus on the printers to keep track of that.

We are moving away from Ubiquiti with some regret, some of it is to appease any staff misjudgement that all other schools are going to Ruckus or Aerohive (we have just finished the WSNUP planning), however are keeping all UniFi outdoor A.P's and the newer UniFi gear is being moved to our hostel to upgrade there. My biggest concerns with migrating to Ruckus is the cost per unit for upgrading in the future and the licencing of course, however I won't be at the school forever and I suppose someone else will have to look after a more uniform network in the future.

Bevan

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Bevan McNaughton

Intranet Manager

MCP, MTCNA, CAP, UEWA, Google Ed.

Southland Girls' High School

328 Tweed Street

Invercargill 9812

Phone: +64 3 211 6030

Fax:     +64 3 216 9010

Mobile: 027 223 2144

[Pete Eaton]

At the subsidised cost, if you have a good student - class ratio, the Ruckus WSNUP option makes sense.  The upgrade cost is what is killing us: the need to add access points is cripplingly expensive.  

Like you, I want to be sure the decisions I make don't back future ICT decision makers into a corner.  It feels like actually perpetuating the Ruckus wifi and investing more money into an expensive per-AP and regular licensing is in fact a worse decision in this regard than outright buying a heap of Unifi APs:  later on the APs can be replaced piecemeal with newer APs (and not be hamstrung by ZoneDirector issues), add an AP for as little as $250 when throughput is an issue or even change systems completely: with no money sunken into ongoing licenses there is no financial penalty to change.

Pete

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[Andrew Godfrey]

Upgrade?

You could plan and budget for a rip and replace with what proves best in five years time or whenever your first access points reach EoL.

On Jun 5, 2017 12:27 PM, "Pete Eaton" <eaton...@gmail.com> wrote:

At the subsidised cost, if you have a good student - class ratio, the Ruckus WSNUP option makes sense.  The upgrade cost is what is killing us: the need to add access points is cripplingly expensive.  

Like you, I want to be sure the decisions I make don't back future ICT decision makers into a corner.  It feels like actually perpetuating the Ruckus wifi and investing more money into an expensive per-AP and regular licensing is in fact a worse decision in this regard than outright buying a heap of Unifi APs:  later on the APs can be replaced piecemeal with newer APs (and not be hamstrung by ZoneDirector issues), add an AP for as little as $250 when throughput is an issue or even change systems completely: with no money sunken into ongoing licenses there is no financial penalty to change.

Pete

Sent from my iPhone

Bevan McNaughton

Intranet Manager

MCP, MTCNA, CAP, UEWA, Google Ed.

Southland Girls' High School

328 Tweed Street

Invercargill 9812

Phone: +64 3 211 6030

Fax:     +64 3 216 9010

Mobile: 027 223 2144

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[Andrew Godfrey]

BYOD printing?

We only use the built in papercut PDF printing from a web page. Simple to use, easy to administer and works across all devices that meet our recommended specifications.

Bevan McNaughton

Intranet Manager

MCP, MTCNA, CAP, UEWA, Google Ed.

Southland Girls' High School

328 Tweed Street

Invercargill 9812

Phone: +64 3 211 6030

Fax:     +64 3 216 9010

Mobile: 027 223 2144

--

[Pete Eaton]

That's the thing: without the subsidy, there is no way we could afford to go Ruckus.  Our school site would be $30k in Ruckus - we are a school of less than 300 students.  We need to spend $6k to get us to that a point to stay in Ruckus until we should upgrade on the next cycle, so $36k/9 years = $4k/year for wireless = not sustainable.

I'm really talking myself into selling our existing APs and buying ubiquity: we could do the next 9 years for about $6k total outlay (2 cycles).  $30k difference would buy a third of our school a Chromebook each - which would make way more difference to the outcomes of students.

Pete

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[Sam McNeill]

Hey Guys,

Really interesting discussion.

The earlier comment about moving away from Ubiquiti with regret because of the perception that "Everyone" is going with Ruckus highlights one of the challenges that schools face right? I know at my old school we were using a less common wifi vendor which by and large worked ok but meant it was hard to call a school "up the road" and see if they were having any issues in situations e.g. when a new OS version was released. 

to some extent I get the "safety in numbers" approach, but it can also lead to what I would call "wrong-headedness" in terms of ICT decision making or worse, abdicating making any decision at all and simply following what others around you are doing.

Every school has it's unique challenges (the phrase "same, same. but different" rings true right!) and where possible I think schools need to be making informed decisions based on what is right for them. 

Obviously, not every school has the resources to do indepth investigations into competing technologies, however this is where communities like this forum (and other similar ones) are so valuable as there is plenty of experienced people on here with usually very strong opinions! 

Thanks all for taking the time to share!

Cheers

Sam

[Kevin Whelan]

I think that everyone having ruckus is a huge bonus when it comes to trouble shooting and sharing of information. Also there are many trained experts in these because of the demand. It is a Rolls Royce product of wifi, You are no more or less exposed than any other school and the safety in numbers is the biggest selling point. The government would be foolhardy to abandon all the ruckus upgrades when the time comes and I'd pick with all the talk of online exams that WSUNP V2 upgrade will happen in the future.
 Schools historically are full of equipment and software crusades set up by fanboy techs that would swear there decisions were right and they saved the school money. I believe more in the safety in numbers, follow industry standards approach is more relevant to a school, The costs in the end are what they are and are no different for every school.
Your problem/decision is no different to any other school in reality,
can you imagine the mess if all these standardized wifi schools are left to rot, its not going to happen

[Bevan McNaughton]

Ubiquiti from what I can see was taken off the WSNUP list as it only offers support for 4 SSID's (actually 8 but 4x 2.4GHz & 4x 5GHz).

The new UniFi AC HD units look actually spectacular and would be perfect for the Gym and halls here and have the benefit of outdoor mounting. The price per unit is still 1/2 that of a Ruckus one too.

Bevan

On 6 June 2017 at 10:28, Kevin Whelan <kwhel...@gmail.com> wrote:

There must be so many schools in this situation, I'd pick the government will stump up when the  time comes around to replace all those APs, WSNUP v2 will be rolled out, they want all NZCA  exams online in the future
I'd be buying the 6 x ruckus and joining the frey. How could you be any worse off than any other school. Theres safety in numbers

[Julian Davison]

While there is some safety in numbers, there's often also an implicit one-soluttion-for-everyone requirement, which has been discussed here before and isn't always accurate. 

On 6/06/2017 10:28 am, "Kevin Whelan" <kwhel...@gmail.com> wrote:

There must be so many schools in this situation, I'd pick the government will stump up when the  time comes around to replace all those APs, WSNUP v2 will be rolled out, they want all NZCA  exams online in the future
I'd be buying the 6 x ruckus and joining the frey. How could you be any worse off than any other school. Theres safety in numbers

On Monday, June 5, 2017 at 1:18:16 PM UTC+12, petethegeek wrote:

[Simon Wright]

I'm by no means a wifi expert, but it is my understanding that its not ideal to have more than 3-4 SSIDs. It was something i read years ago.

In saying that, why does anyone need so many SSIDs in the first place?

Through aerohive we have 3, one for staff and students which uses 802.11 auth to define what vlan they go into, second one is a psk for devices that don't support 802.11x auth and a guest network.

In the most recent versions of unifi they have now implemented beta support for vlan assignment through 802.11. I've been testing it with a new unifi AC Pro unit and so far its works really well. I also hope to do a load test with it in the coming weeks by putting in a classroom and getting as many student to connect to it and go nuts.

Regards
Simon Wright
ICT Manager

Best for boys through the right learning
2 Arthur Street, Dunedin, 9016, New Zealand p: 03 477 5527 | f: 03 477 5468 | c: 021 773 229 | w: obhs.school.nz

Respect - Whakaute | Courage - Toa | Honour - Hōnore | Perseverance - Manawanui | Excellence - Hiranga

[Mike Etheridge]

The issue is the SSID beacons. This is the AP announcing the presence of the SSID/network. They chew up bandwidth, but you can mitigate against this by turning the beacon off on some systems, for SSIDs that don’t need to be announced, e.g. I have an SSID for the internet of things around the place. I set those things up, there is not need to have a beacon for that SSID. Some OSs call this a "hidden wifi network” or something like that. It can be open or have whatever security or authentication you want, it just won’t be seen in the list of available networks when people are looking.

.

Mike

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[Tim Harper]

Hi Simon,

this should help explain why it is useful to limit the number of SSIDs:

http://revolutionwifi.blogspot.co.nz/p/ssid-overhead-calculator.html

At Mt Aspiring we run Ruckus.  We have since 2007 and I reclycle gear to other schools at no cost when I can.  

I find that if I factory reset a Zone Director it comes up with 6 licences by default at no cost.  This is more than adequate for many small primary schools so I give away gear to those who've missed out.  If I have a Zone Director with lots of licences I make sure I have access details to it so a reset is not needed.  I did this with Mt Aspiring's original ZD with 25 licences when I gave it to Twizel Area School.  They have since been WSNUPped and given it back to me.

I've never seen the licences expire - they seem to last for ever.

I'm just about to send a 6 AP-set up to a small Northland school.

If anyone needs a 25-AP set up let me know.  The only cost will be getting it to you!

regards,

Tim Harper


Phone 03 443 5167 (messages cannot be left on this number)
Mobile 027 443 1236

t...@mtaspiring.school.nz
www.mtaspiring.school.nz

On 6 June 2017 at 11:22, Simon Wright <simon....@obhs.school.nz> wrote:

I'm by no means a wifi expert, but it is my understanding that its not ideal to have more than 3-4 SSIDs. It was something i read years ago.

In saying that, why does anyone need so many SSIDs in the first place?

Through aerohive we have 3, one for staff and students which uses 802.11 auth to define what vlan they go into, second one is a psk for devices that don't support 802.11x auth and a guest network.

In the most recent versions of unifi they have now implemented beta support for vlan assignment through 802.11. I've been testing it with a new unifi AC Pro unit and so far its works really well. I also hope to do a load test with it in the coming weeks by putting in a classroom and getting as many student to connect to it and go nuts.

Regards
Simon Wright
ICT Manager

Best for boys through the right learning
2 Arthur Street, Dunedin, 9016, New Zealand p: 03 477 5527 | f: 03 477 5468 | c: 021 773 229 | w: obhs.school.nz

Respect - Whakaute | Courage - Toa | Honour - Hōnore | Perseverance - Manawanui | Excellence - Hiranga

[Kevin Whelan]

just saying: There are an awful lot of threads where people are moving from unifi back to enterprise level gear, Some very valid reasons given  especially regarding high usages and support. not that I'm saying ruckus is perfect or even good value for money but it is enterprise for a good reason
perhaps by wsnupv2 they will be a preferred supplier

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[Bevan McNaughton]

Technically UniFi is an enterprise product however it all depends on which 'standards' you adhere to.

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Bevan McNaughton

Intranet Manager

MCP, MTCNA, CAP, UEWA, Google Ed.

Southland Girls' High School

328 Tweed Street

Invercargill 9812

Phone: +64 3 211 6030

Fax:     +64 3 216 9010

Mobile: 027 223 2144

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[Blake Richardson]

We are definitely not using 1 AP per classroom. Our largest classroom block has over 20 classrooms and is running off 9 Ruckus R700 AP's. It is a new 3 storey building.

Ruckus used to make some software called Zone Planner which allowed you to import a building plan and map wireless coverage. I would suggest speaking to Dean @ Rev IT about Ruckus pricing, he has always looked after me.

[Sue Way]

This group makes for some interesting reading.. 

We put in Aruba kit about 5 years ago, it has performed very well. We recently got WSNUPed and managed to get Aruba kit again. 

We have 1 AP per classroom space, we have used our old kit to fill in any highly used areas, 1 in each main admin space and 3 in our Library. We are a full BYOD for all our students(1400). Many students have more than one device so this puts extra connections through the wireless. we often have over 2800 devices connected by 10am. 

I have found the APs can handle about 60 devices, the biggest issue comes from devices getting slow connections if they stay connected to an AP that is not the nearest. In areas where the signal travels further I have decreased the power output to cut down on interference and help with connecting devices to closest AP. this tuning has made a huge difference in the speeds the users are getting.

I have cut down on the Number of SSIDs we have to 3 - One for school owned domain joined gear, 1 for BYOD and one for Other weird stuff that cannot authenticate and use PSK eg wireles IP phone, Wireless printer for Vistab and a couple of other devices. This just save s the work that the APs and controller need to do.

Sue Way | IT Services Director

Wellington Girls' College | Pipitea Street, Thorndon, Wellington 6011

[Kevin Whelan]

Aerohive have some really good guides online  for High density setups in Schools which would be relevant for other brands with some tinkering or relevant settings,things like making 24Mbps the default rate to stop devices connecting with a weak signal
https://community.aerohive.com/aerohive/topics/new-official-aerohive-k-12-deployment-guides