N4L - some partner initiatives we working on

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Clayton Hubbard

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Nov 9, 2017, 6:13:58 PM11/9/17
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Hi All,

FYI, Press release if anyone's interested.



Clayton Hubbard
Solution Architect
The Network for Learning Ltd

Simon Wright

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Nov 9, 2017, 6:31:27 PM11/9/17
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Hmm, interesting.

Certainly want to know more of the technical side about a 1GB fiber connection into each classroom.
In a roundabout way this is what SNUP and WSNUP are/were about, no?



Regards
Simon Wright
ICT Manager

Best for boys through the right learning
2 Arthur Street, Dunedin, 9016, New Zealand
p: 03 477 5527 | f: 03 477 5468 | c: 021 773 229 | w: obhs.school.nz

 

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Clayton Hubbard

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Nov 9, 2017, 6:38:32 PM11/9/17
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It is early days but more detail will follow :)

On Fri, 10 Nov 2017 at 12:31 PM, Simon Wright <simon....@obhs.school.nz> wrote:
Hmm, interesting.

Certainly want to know more of the technical side about a 1GB fiber connection into each classroom.
In a roundabout way this is what SNUP and WSNUP are/were about, no?



Regards
Simon Wright
ICT Manager

Best for boys through the right learning
2 Arthur Street, Dunedin, 9016, New Zealand
p: 03 477 5527 | f: 03 477 5468 | c: 021 773 229 | w: obhs.school.nz

 

Respect - Whakaute | Courage - Toa | Honour - Hōnore | Perseverance - Manawanui | Excellence - Hiranga

On 10 November 2017 at 12:13, Clayton Hubbard <clayton...@n4l.co.nz> wrote:
Hi All,

FYI, Press release if anyone's interested.



Clayton Hubbard
Solution Architect
The Network for Learning Ltd

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Alistair Baird

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Nov 9, 2017, 6:38:38 PM11/9/17
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1GB into the classroom requires 1GB to the gate, but then the bandwidth is shared.....

On 10 November 2017 at 12:30, Simon Wright <simon....@obhs.school.nz> wrote:
Hmm, interesting.

Certainly want to know more of the technical side about a 1GB fiber connection into each classroom.
In a roundabout way this is what SNUP and WSNUP are/were about, no?



Regards
Simon Wright
ICT Manager

Best for boys through the right learning
2 Arthur Street, Dunedin, 9016, New Zealand
p: 03 477 5527 | f: 03 477 5468 | c: 021 773 229 | w: obhs.school.nz

 

Respect - Whakaute | Courage - Toa | Honour - Hōnore | Perseverance - Manawanui | Excellence - Hiranga
On 10 November 2017 at 12:13, Clayton Hubbard <clayton...@n4l.co.nz> wrote:
Hi All,

FYI, Press release if anyone's interested.



Clayton Hubbard
Solution Architect
The Network for Learning Ltd

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Alistair Baird
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Mike Etheridge

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Nov 9, 2017, 6:42:19 PM11/9/17
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It seems to me that standard Telecom practice, now standard Spark/Chorus practice, is to advertise the total contended bandwidth as the bandwidth you are going to get. So we are just asking schools to get on board with that and tell each classroom (and each student, I suppose) that they are going to get Gigabit to the planet, when there is only Gigabit to the school - maybe.  Happy to be disabused of this notion.

Mike


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Clayton Hubbard

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Nov 9, 2017, 7:58:07 PM11/9/17
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We have two initiatives announced with one been to the school gate and the other is beyond the gate :).

I know the detail is a bit light for technical community and more info will follow.

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Alistair Baird
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Simon Wright

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Nov 9, 2017, 8:11:42 PM11/9/17
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I know you said more to follow, however its on my mind now...

"1Gbps fibre connection direct to each individual classroom"

I'm sure that must be a misrepresentation of what you're actually planning. considering again through SNUP and WSNUP the majority of schools already (or at least the ability of) 1Gbps connection to each classroom over good old copper.
Surely every school which has wireless access points are connected to their respective switch via a 1Gbps link with a gigabit path to at least the N4L router.

Yes more detail needed.


Regards
Simon Wright
ICT Manager

Best for boys through the right learning
2 Arthur Street, Dunedin, 9016, New Zealand
p: 03 477 5527 | f: 03 477 5468 | c: 021 773 229 | w: obhs.school.nz

 

Respect - Whakaute | Courage - Toa | Honour - Hōnore | Perseverance - Manawanui | Excellence - Hiranga

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Alistair Baird
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Pete Mundy

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Nov 9, 2017, 9:09:08 PM11/9/17
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It begs the question of what REANNZ will have to do to keep up and continue to be seen to be 'advanced'!

I mean if a 20-classroom primary school gets equivalent of 20Gbps of links.

Then again, they're starting to lay that Hakaiki cable soon...

Pete
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Peter Lambrechtsen

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Nov 9, 2017, 9:21:22 PM11/9/17
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I think a Chorus ONT + N4L to each classroom is a terrible idea for many reasons.
- Each classroom will be a completely standalone internet connection if Chorus are providing it, that would be billed and managed as such. Unless it's a routed network supported by Chorus & N4L, but surely running 10GB from a core switch to each classroom and having 1GB downlinks would achieve a far better outcome.
- Being able to have devices that multicast or use discovery protocols connect between classrooms (ChromeCast,Apple TV, Bonjour, DLNA ...) won't be able to see each other.
- How will AD, File & Print, LMS, SMS or other on-prem network services be able to be used as they are local network rather than routing out to the N4L internet and back in again.
- Running a single wireless including roaming between APs across the network, and they all better be 4x4 AC MIMO routers to be able to push 400Mbit+. All sorts of nasty hacks having local switching and centrally managed APs
- Are any schools *really* saturating a 950/500Mbit connection? I find that *very very* hard to believe. Even very large schools with 2000+ secondary school students I think would struggle to saturate the link, plus international TCP round-trips means you never can go at high speed.
- What about the edge router, assuming it's a firewall, are you sure it's able to push data quick enough as more often than not the router itself isn't up to the task of pushing GB traffic. And you will now require one per classroom. Decent GB enterprise / prosumer grade routers / firewalls aren't cheap and someone has to pay for one for each classroom.

The proposition seems nuts to me with Chorus being involved. Yes if you need it 10GB core and 1GB class room then that makes sense, but out to the internet I can't see a reason why more than 1 or at very worst 2 x 1GB internet connections would be required. As that's a heck of a lot of YouTube at 4k.


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Clayton Hubbard

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Nov 9, 2017, 10:01:48 PM11/9/17
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You raise some very good points Peter and part why we need to work through things. However it is technology shift that we looking at to see viability

The technology underlying this part will passive optical lan (POL). With the move to most if not everything been pushed to the cloud we need to think of challenges such as VR/AR and the potential bandwidth consumption.

Noting that this is not a issue tomorrow but something in the coming years where demand is going to out pace traditional LAN topologies running at 1G and 10G

Clayton





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Paul Batchelor

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Nov 10, 2017, 8:39:36 AM11/10/17
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Hi all,

Have just returned from an overseas trip - woke up & cannot get back to sleep.

Here are my thoughts & this is speculation on my part but I think I’m on the right track.

Background:

The NZ Govt through the visionary input of certain individuals in the Ministry of Education since about 2005 knew that schools needed to upgrade their internal infrastructure to take advantage of the new ’super highway’ to the gate of each school which is the Fibre broadband rollout via N4L ( a modified Spark service ) & Chorus.

This internal school infrastructure upgrade after a number of pilot and PoC projects around 2010 became known as SNUP and included a full set of works fort civil, electrical, structured cabling ( fibre between cabinets / school blocks ) & copper cabling ( CAT6e ) to each classroom within a block.
Later in 2013 this was supplemented by a WiFi overlay known as WSNUP.

The SNUP / WSUP infrastructure upgrade has provided schools with a solid IT infrastructure foundation capable of taking advantage of any digital technology overlays for many years to come 

Situation:

Most of the larger schools ( xtra large, very large, large & medium categories ) are managed by in house or outsourced IT teams ( New Era , Cyclone, TTS, Norrcom, Isometric, Spark, AIS Corp & local IT companies )  and are generally well catered for.

Most of the very small & small schools – especially in rural areas do not have the capacity and expertise to manage their internal networks.

Fortunately – as of 2015 – Allied Telesis and the Ministry rolled out AMF ( Autonomous Management Framework ) capable switches to most of these schools.

With this NZ developed software we ( or someone )can  centrally manage, provision ( new ) and replace ( warranty replacements ) switching infrastructure without any technical expertise needed onsite.

See: 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MrDm3vHECMg&feature=youtu.be

https://www.alliedtelesis.com/solutions/technology-solutions/amf

N4L / Chorus:

So what can Chorus bring to the table?

Chorus provide fibre backbone and tail connectivity (primarily GPON based ) to residential and business users.

GPON is a passive fibre optical distribution technology which is used extensively for relatively large concentrations of low speed users such as residential housing.

Most business users utilise point to point fibre connections.

GPON is a shared ( TDM based ) medium with the main fibre link connecting to a splitter ( typically 32 : 1 ) and the user endpoints ( ONT's ) offering Gigabit interfaces.

Being a shared medium – the more users – the less performance – generally speaking – think of the old Hub technology before switching became the norm.

So if you have a Gigabit fibre link into a organisation / school – this is split 32 ways to 32 users – or - my guess up to 32 classrooms.

In theory this is a Gig to each classroom – in practice it is not but then do small schools need Gig ?

So – there you have it  - my thought on a Chorus extension – past the gate.

If this is what is being thought of – then I guess one should ask – what of the large tax payer investment in copper cabling ?

Meanwhile – please see the link below – I think you will find that interesting – especially with the advent of Smart Buildings.

http://go.alliedtelesis.com/active-vs-passive


Paul Batchelor

Country Manager

Allied Telesis NZ Ltd

Mob + 64 21 660 347

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Freephone 0800 114 141

Global Lead Partner

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From: Mike Etheridge <mike.et...@gmail.com> on behalf of Mike Etheridge <mi...@etheridge.co.nz>
Reply-To: "techies-f...@googlegroups.com" <techies-f...@googlegroups.com>
Date: Friday, 10 November 2017 12:42 pm
To: "techies-f...@googlegroups.com" <techies-f...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: [techies-for-schools] N4L - some partner initiatives we working on

It seems to me that standard Telecom practice, now standard Spark/Chorus practice, is to advertise the total contended bandwidth as the bandwidth you are going to get. So we are just asking schools to get on board with that and tell each classroom (and each student, I suppose) that they are going to get Gigabit to the planet, when there is only Gigabit to the school - maybe.  Happy to be disabused of this notion.

Mike

On 10/11/2017, at 12:38 PM, Alistair Baird <bai...@stpeterspn.school.nz> wrote:

1GB into the classroom requires 1GB to the gate, but then the bandwidth is shared.....
On 10 November 2017 at 12:30, Simon Wright <simon....@obhs.school.nz> wrote:
Hmm, interesting.

Certainly want to know more of the technical side about a 1GB fiber connection into each classroom.
In a roundabout way this is what SNUP and WSNUP are/were about, no?


Regards
Simon Wright
ICT Manager

Best for boys through the right learning
2 Arthur Street, Dunedin, 9016, New Zealand
p: 03 477 5527 | f: 03 477 5468 | c: 021 773 229 | w: obhs.school.nz

 

Respect - Whakaute | Courage - Toa | Honour - H?nore | Perseverance - Manawanui | Excellence - Hiranga

Patrick Dunford

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Nov 10, 2017, 9:07:33 AM11/10/17
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It looks like part of the FTTP fibre push which of course is all over NZ, where I live we have fibre ducts right outside our front door.

But it also looks like the thrust of the Ministry's push to get server infrastructure out of schools, that is going to need faster data flow around school sites.

How many high schools have fibre between buildings already?

Matt Strickland

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Nov 10, 2017, 10:25:00 PM11/10/17
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It seems to me the school of the future (or at least where I work) will become an Internet provider and possibly software provider (subscriptions outside ministry), and that's about it.
Everything cloud based and manageable, no on-site servers. Identity/Student/Learning/Security management all cloud based. Just your end device and a connection.

I can see from a simplicity standpoint, a classroom could be considered just like a 'residential dwelling', so a separate ONT/N4L that shifts that core to N4L (or 'select provider here')

Then I am also thinking IPv6 and DNS-SD so we can still connect these devices - device -> display panel, device -> printer/cutter/laser and create rules.

Could be just around the corner...

Matt

Clayton Hubbard

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Nov 12, 2017, 2:04:08 PM11/12/17
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Great input Paul!

One correction on the GPON side of things. "GPON is a shared ( TDM based ) medium.." - This is only in the upload direction. The download is done in a broadcast fashion with AES encryption and upload is done on a time division multiplexing basis. 

The standard GPON port is 2.488 Down / 1.244 Up with 10G symmetrical ports available already. In regards to splitting, this can be done in many configurations such as 1:16, 1:32, 1:64 etc, however, you can also do 2:x splits for redundancy. 

Passive Optical LAN is getting a lot of attention internationally and each situation needs to be addressed based on its merits. So would you go and rip out all the existing copper? Likely not if this is fit for purpose, but if the cabling infrastructure needs to be ripped out and replaced (like we saw with Cat3 to Cat5 to Cat6 etc) then is there a better model? Would you build new buildings using copper everywhere (i.e Cat6a/Cat7 etc) or Fibre?
 
All these questions are worth asking and when it comes to POL, there are big sweeping claims around savings across power, space, management, security, and reliability. Are these real? do they apply to our education community or only big enterprises etc?

As this is very early days it worth looking at all options, and we know that one size does not fit all in some cases. 

Appreciate the input.

Clayton Hubbard
Solution Architect
The Network for Learning Ltd

M +64 22 043 0155  DDI +64 9 972 2906  P 0800 LEARNING
A Suite 306, Geyser Building, 100 Parnell Road, Parnell, Auckland 1052
A PO Box 37118, Parnell, Auckland 1151  n4l.co.nz


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Paul Batchelor

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Nov 12, 2017, 6:35:50 PM11/12/17
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Clayton,

Agreed& well put : ) ….as noted in Scott’s article below and the move to ‘Smart Schools / Smart Buildings’ 


Network technologies: Active (Ethernet) vs Passive (PON)

When it comes to delivering networks to support Smart Buildings, there is no doubt the near-limitless bandwidth of fibre is of benefit.  What is less clear is whether an active or passive technology is better.  The reality is that it depends on many factors including the environment, applications being used and who is going to manage or operate the infrastructure.  Let’s look at this in a little more detail.

History and background

Active Ethernet or point to point Ethernet has been used extensively in a broad range of applications and environments for many years from the early days of 10Base2 to the current Ethernet technologies that utilise copper or fibre to deliver 1G, 10G and beyond.

In order to deliver next generation services to consumers or subscribers, the aging twisted pair infrastructure that had been used for many years was simply not capable of meeting the bandwidth requirements of services like HDTV.  Fibre with its near limitless bandwidth was an easy choice but using an active or point-to-point technology would have seen thousands to tens of thousands of strands of fibre required from the exchange.  Alternately, it would have been necessary to have active equipment in the field from where fibre would have been aggregated.  Neither of these was particularly suitable so an alternative technology known as Passive Optical Networks or PON was developed.  PON had the benefit of using small fibre counts from the exchange and then branching out to deliver services to subscribers with passive splitters overcoming the limitations of active Ethernet for this application.

Application and use

There is no question that in a broadacre environment for the delivery of consumer services that PON has many benefits.  These benefits though are questionable when it comes to delivering services in other environments such as building and other services in commercial buildings or hospitality environments. 

Today, the benefits of a single converged network to support all applications within a facility are better understood.  The simplicity of managing one set of infrastructure, flexibility to add additional services and lower total cost of ownership are now being seen by organisations that head down this path.  And with 20% of commercial buildings being smart or intelligent buildings by 2020 this trend will only increase.

The requirements of these services that leverage a converged network are quite different to those of the consumer services seen in broadacre environments.  Within a commercial building services that are regularly deployed include telephony, CCTV, signage and wayfinding, wireless, access control, BMS/HVAC and lighting with who knows what new technology being around the corner.

These applications often require Power over Ethernet to power the endpoint, multicast support to manage the distribution of content, symmetric bandwidth to support both content moving in both directions, and due to the critical nature of some services, a high degree of redundancy.  These are inherent within active Ethernet networks but are not typical of passive networks.

Technology aside, another factor to consider is ownership and operation of the network.  Passive networks are typically deployed by a carrier or service provider who then takes complete responsibility for the infrastructure and service delivery.  When an add, move or change is required, this is undertaken by the organisation responsible.  This is ideal for the delivery of services such as voice, data and telephony to consumers but is less than ideal for building services. 

Within commercial buildings there is often a need by the facility owner or manager to reconfigure the network to support new services or add new endpoints.  This level of flexibility is simply not available when the network is operated or managed by a carrier or service provider and would generally incur additional costs that would not occur with an active network that is managed by the facility.

Summary

So, when it comes to deploying fibre to support services, it is not simply a case of an active topology being better than a passive topology or vice versa but consideration being given to the environment and applications and then making a considered choice based on the requirements.  And in some cases, it may be that both can co-exist – a passive topology to deliver consumer services to residents which would be managed by a carrier and an active topology for building services that would be managed by the facility.

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About the author

Scott Penno has a degree in communication engineering and MBA in technology management and has been involved in the technology industry for over 20 years.  Within Allied Telesis his role sees him involved in many facets of the organisation including sales, marketing and product management.


Paul Batchelor

Country Manager

Allied Telesis NZ Ltd

Mob + 64 21 660 347

tel + 64 4 566 4438 

Freephone 0800 114 141

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Blake Richardson

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Nov 13, 2017, 3:40:36 PM11/13/17
to Techies for schools
If the article means 1Gbps internet connection per classroom opposed to 1Gbps network connection then its a complete waste of money and time. I highly doubt the average classroom size of 30 kids is going to max out a 1Gbps connection, event if they were all watching youtube and downloading from Steam there would still be plenty of spare bandwidth.

I would rather them spend that money (because it won't be cheap) adding in a second fibre link to work alongside the southern cross cable as faster internet for every classroom is useless when most of the traffic is going overseas.

Peter Lambrechtsen

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Nov 13, 2017, 5:12:20 PM11/13/17
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On Tue, Nov 14, 2017 at 9:40 AM, Blake Richardson <bla...@stmargarets.school.nz> wrote:
If the article means 1Gbps internet connection per classroom opposed to 1Gbps network connection then its a complete waste of money and time. I highly doubt the average classroom size of 30 kids is going to max out a 1Gbps connection, event if they were all watching youtube and downloading from Steam there would still be plenty of spare bandwidth.

I would rather them spend that money (because it won't be cheap) adding in a second fibre link to work alongside the southern cross cable as faster internet for every classroom is useless when most of the traffic is going overseas.

There is already a second trans-tasman link in place put in by Spark/Vodafone/Telstra with the Tasman Global Access (TGA) Cable that went live back in March this year.

Trans-tasman capacity has never been a problem as SCCN has plenty of capacity where they are continually upgrading each end to increase capacity where the cost of the circuits is still dropping year on year and the growth has been over the tasman rather than over the pacific.

The only real change will occur when Google/Amazon/Microsoft deploy their cloud data centre offerings in-country. Unless I have missed something I can't see that on the roadmap from any of those providers in the next few years.

So unless someone enters the NZ market to provide hosted cloud services at a similar price point and functionality as Google/Amazon/Microsoft which isn't going to happen in my view as the costs won't be the same to do exactly what the global players are doing at the same price. Personally I think the Azure offering would be more aligned to schools but Google would be equally as valid when offering the education space. And I can guarantee that price will always win so it will be hard to build a viable solution on that unless you have very very deep pockets and happy to make a loss for a long period of time or it's funded by the Government.

But you can't change the speed of light so Sydney will always be 30ms away no matter what you do.

So the move to cloud will also mean a re-adjustment to expectations on the performance you can expect due to TCP latency.
 

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Patrick Dunford

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Nov 14, 2017, 4:48:07 AM11/14/17
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There is also Hawaiki's cable going in (being laid in the sea at the moment off Australia and the US) and the Tasman Global cable which was laid between NZ and Australia earlier this year, so there is going to be heaps of capacity out of New Zealand in the coming years.

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