WSNUP wireless longevity?

[Jeffrey B]

Hi everyone,

A general question for anyone who knows or has an opinion. 

How long were the WSNUP installs supposed to last? 

We had ours done at the end of 2014 and the controller they put in went EOL early last year meaning that we could not get any of the new AC access points as the controller does not support it.  It also has a nasty habit of failing under load and refusing new radius connections - due, apparently to the controller used not being intended for high density deployments.

When they initially put it in we queried and complained that the tech was already outdated when they were specing it and asked for a way to get the avalible 802.11ac WAPs at that point to no avail.  Sadly if we had managed we would probably still have a supported controller.

Thanks.

Jeffrey.

[Alistair Baird]

The WSNUP was an add on for schools that didn't get wireless as part of their original SNUP, but it is was only a boost to get them up to an expected level. It is up to schools to allocate an ICT budget within their operational budgets to maintain that. The equipment was given a 5 year warranty, but that does not mean it will still be fit for purpose in 5 years, as schools use of technology changes rapidly within that time.

It's a bitter pill, but all your infrastructure upgrades need to be budgeted for, servers, switches etc. WRT the switches, it is now minimum standard to have 1GB to the classroom, but 10GB is probably likely. A lot of the older switches may only be 100MB and EOL.

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[Atholl Wilkinson]

We have just been wireless snupped during the last school holidays. Our previous wireless system was an HP  which we installed in 2009 and which has lasted us almost 9 years. It went EOL last year. We needed more AP's but could not get any new Licences for the MSM760 controller. HPE Aruba was brilliant in that they loaned us an MSM760 with temporary licences so we could get our 2x new buildings online. When I did research I found that the latest technology was what they call WAVE 2. When we were approached by Torque IP to be wireless snupped their recommendation was Ruckus, which was only WAVE1. WAVE1 technology is around 5 years old so we as a school decided to go with HPE Aruba which is WAVE2 and is only around 2-year-old technology. There is another new technology being released later this year I believe. Have a read of this article at this site: https://blogs.cisco.com/wireless/introduction-to-802-11ac-wave-2

The best advise I can give to anyone, is before you sign the documents do research and more research. Find out what wireless system you are being advised to install and how old the technology is and then find out if there is newer technology out there, and if it is available. This will give you some indication of how long your system will last before EOL. 

We had no problems with getting HPE Aruba installed when we requested that, it was what we wanted. So far it is working very well.

Ngā mihi Atholl Wilkinson Network Manager/Administrator P: ext 720 E: wilki...@selwyn.school.nz

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Selwyn College 203-245 Kohimarama  Road, Kohimarama, Auckland 1071 W: www.selwyn.school.nz E: in...@selwyn.school.nz P: 521 9610 F: 521 9620

[Jeffrey B]

Thanks Alistair and Atholl,

I should clarify/correct myself, we got it done as part of a full SNUP where we chose to pay extra to get a feasible number of LAN ports per room and did query the wireless at the time.  AC wave 1 was long since out and we stated that we would rather pay the extra if we could to get up to date tech at the time.  They stated that they could not as wave 1 was not the final product and so they would only install the N gear with no alternatives even if we paid more.

They did not give us any alternative if we wanted to go ahead with SNUP which was sorely needed at that school. Glad to hear that they are slightly more flexible now.

Sadly the Aruba system we had before is still getting updates long after the newer Ruckus stuff EOLed.  We are only in the situation as our hand was forced - to old tech - by SNUP.  Very interesting to hear they are still pushing tech a generation behind, perhaps they have some kind of clearance deal in place for old stock. 

We are already investigating a new virtual controller on our own free of external influence but it would have been nice to have been allowed to do it right the first time rather than waste everyones money on old tech to start with. We would then be humming along with AC wave 1 not N on WAPs with an extra couple of years of software support at the least.

Jeffrey.

Get Outlook for Android

From: Atholl Wilkinson

Sent: Thursday, May 24, 8:24 AM

Subject: Re: [techies-for-schools] WSNUP wireless longevity?

To: techies-f...@googlegroups.com

We have just been wireless snupped during the last school holidays. Our previous wireless system was an HP  which we installed in 2009 and which has lasted us almost 9 years. It went EOL last year. We needed more AP's but could not get any new Licences for the MSM760 controller. HPE Aruba was brilliant in that they loaned us an MSM760 with temporary licences so we could get our 2x new buildings online. When I did research I found that the latest technology was what they call WAVE 2. When we were approached by Torque IP to be wireless snupped their recommendation was Ruckus, which was only WAVE1. WAVE1 technology is around 5 years old so we as a school decided to go with HPE Aruba which is WAVE2 and is only around 2-year-old technology. There is another new technology being released later this year I believe. Have a read of this article at this site:  https://blogs.cisco.com/wireless/introduction-to-802-11ac-wave-2

The best advise I can give to anyone, is before you sign the documents do research and more research. Find out what wireless system you are being advised to install and how old the technology is and then find out if there is newer technology out there, and if it is available. This will give you some indication of how long your system will last before EOL. 

We had no problems with getting HPE Aruba installed when we requested that, it was what we wanted. So far it is working very well.

Ngā mihi Atholl Wilkinson Network Manager / Administrator P: ext 720 E:  wilki...@selwyn.school.nz

On 23 May 2018 at 23:13, Jeffrey B < sensat...@hotmail.com> wrote:

Hi everyone,

A general question for anyone who knows or has an opinion. 

How long were the WSNUP installs supposed to last? 

We had ours done at the end of 2014 and the controller they put in went EOL early last year meaning that we could not get any of the new AC access points as the controller does not support it.  It also has a nasty habit of failing under load and refusing new radius connections - due, apparently to the controller used not being intended for high density deployments.

When they initially put it in we queried and complained that the tech was already outdated when they were specing it and asked for a way to get the avalible 802.11ac WAPs at that point to no avail.  Sadly if we had managed we would probably still have a supported controller.

Thanks.

Jeffrey.

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Selwyn College

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[Tim Harper]

The definitive rules are here:

http://www.education.govt.nz/school/running-a-school/technology-in-schools/maintaining-your-upgraded-ict-network/

In particular:

Budget for maintenance

Your school property plan includes budgeting for maintenance of your school ICT network. Ensure that you plan for the:

• cost of any cabling repairs from your 5-year budget (5YA) or Policy 1 funding
• replacement of network switches and/or wireless equipment from your furniture and equipment budget or other funding source

Every 5 years you’ll need to replace switches and wireless equipment to keep pace with technology and changes in your school. Your cabling is covered by a 20-year performance warranty.

regards,

Tim Harper


Phone 03 443 5167 (messages cannot be left on this number)
Mobile 027 443 1236

t...@mtaspiring.school.nz
www.mtaspiring.school.nz

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Selwyn College 203-245 Kohimarama  Road, Kohimarama, Auckland 1071 W: www.selwyn.school.nz E: in...@selwyn.school.nz P: 521 9610 F: 521 9620

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[Alistair Baird]

I knew Tim would find that page!

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Selwyn College 203-245 Kohimarama  Road, Kohimarama, Auckland 1071 W: www.selwyn.school.nz E: in...@selwyn.school.nz P: 521 9610 F: 521 9620

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[Jeffrey B]

Thanks Tim, shows their implementation to be dissapointing as judged by their own standards.  Perfectly acceptable to have to keep a rolling upgrade in place just unfourtunate when the tech picked only lasts 3 of the five expected years.

Jeffrey.

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From: Tim Harper

Sent: Thursday, May 24, 9:19 AM

Subject: Re: [techies-for-schools] WSNUP wireless longevity?

To: techies-f...@googlegroups.com

[Kevin Whelan]

I think your getting too hung up in the glossy advertising, Wave 1,2 and beyond have been talked about and beta released slowly for years, they are not all ratified even AC is still different between brands hence makers are slow to jump on board for fear of being incompatible. All this wave tech and even AC is really for home use with better distances and higher rates and not at all workable in high density environments like schools No one is going to get AC speeds if you dont have the channel bonding etc available
it took me a while to realise this because on paper all the new features sound terrific but in reality you are better off dumbing your network down to N , having usable bandwidth with no CCC etc
the variety of chipsets and old laptops that turn up here don't play nicely with all the new features either we have found especially in boarding houses with high density. having dual 5gig wifis sounded like a brilliant idea on paper but reality was within 3 months we were re enabling alot of 2.4 due to connection issues
has been a learning curve and all working well now but don't get caught in all the hype
High density Enterprise wireless is not Wave anything

[Matt Strickland]

We were WSNUP probably around the same time, ~2014 with a Ruckus 1100 controller and 7982 AP's which are both EOL.

However I've already upgraded the controller to a 3000 some years ago (another school was WSNUP'ed replacing an existing 3000 with a new 3000) so I purchased second hand.

As for AP's I haven't gone the wave2 route yet, but I've been adding r610 AP's as budget allows.

I plan to replace/add a certain % every year, and try and place the newer technology in the high concentration areas.

I roughly budget $3000 - $7000 every year for wireless (900 students)

At some point there could be a larger complete replacement to a different vendor/supplier.

Matt

[Mike Etheridge]

Hi Matt

Why did you go for the 610s over the 600s? We were WSNUP with a 3050 ZD and r600 APs. I have bought in a few more, and went with the 600s as they were performing ok.

Mike

[Simon Wright]

Just want to throw my 2 cents in for any schools who are yet to go through the last of the WSNUP. You don't have to accept what is presented by TorqueIP. By that i'm not saying you outright dismiss it. They have to work within the guidelines from the MoE. Take a look at your network as a whole and plan for the future (next ~5 years). It maybe you need to upgrade your switches, choose a different wireless vendor (there are alternatives to ruckus).

I'm not going into detail here, ive posted previously on what i/we did with wsnup. In short, i wasn't happy with what was presented, so i worked with my vendors and the MoE to work towards a solution that fitted what we wanted/needed.

Regards
Simon Wright
ICT Manager

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[Matt Strickland]

Hi Mike,

I have 600's in low density area's, and some 610 in high density.

By high density I had 100-140 concurrent connected clients in a small area. 

(Because some of our faculty's have decided to change the layout of their rooms), so now all the Mac's are on wireless, then when students also bring their own device, and their phone, easy 140 between just two classrooms.

So I opted for a mix of 600's and 610's. Sure the 610's are wave2 and only 3x3:3.

But yes, the 600's are performing well. The 3000 is licenced for 100 AP.s 

Not there yet but I could see us close to 1 AP per classroom. 

Maybe disable 2.4 on each second one or reduce power?

I'd need to see some real world stats or take some advice when we get that far.

Matt

Hi Matt

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[Mike Etheridge]

I did buy a couple of 710s for high density areas. The first one deployed seems to be performing pretty well. I was supposed to deploy the other one this week but does not look like I will get there now. We got 75 licenses on the ZD, but initially 56 Aps. Will have 75 by the end of the year.

Mike

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[Craig Knights]

The trick with the Ruckus Virtual controller the vSZ is you can buy licenses one at a time...

We've been having major wifi issues since wsnup. But last night it was realised it might have be down to wifi data ports moving from our non AT poe switches back to the 8000gs as specified by wsnup.  So this morning I'm moving them back until I get those 8000s checked.  So far so good!!

Hi Matt

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[Matt Strickland]

I have 6 core fibre to each block (or each edge switch) so our 8000gs and x510's are stacked and I put the last ports on each switch in link aggregation / LACP.

Ruckus ports are usually the first 6-8 ports of the top switch (with vlan tagging for wifi lans)

I am still using injectors for ruckus and only using un-managed poe switches for cameras.

The managed PoE switches are pretty expensive.

I might look at a PoE rack injector, one of those ones with say 8 ports in/out and a huge power adapter.

The current injectors supply 21w / 0.4A at 48V - so id be looking for around 200w / 4A supply for 8 or so APs.

Matt

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[Craig Knights]

I think our 8000gs switches have chipset fan issues....  as nudged by someone on this list last night!

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[Matt Strickland]

I replaced ~50% of those last holidays.

Strangely tho I've never had issues, but I replaced them as I knew they were stalled.

Matt

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[Bevan McNaughton]

The AT-611's save a lot of hassle compared to individual injectors.

Before WSNUP, we put in some UniFi PoE Switches for the UniFi AP's we had.
In 1 area we have disconnected aAT- 611 after some issues with it and have a dedicated fibre to the UniFi-16-POE to run the Ruckus gear. Cheap and effective with easy management on it.

Elsewhere we have x510's and x230's with PoE in some areas to start the upgrade process where the 8000GS' have gone into stack in other areas.

Hi Matt

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[Craig Knights]

Standard fans or did AT supply them?

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[Pete Mundy]

I fitted a warranty-replacement switch for a school with stalled fan a couple of weeks ago. The faulty switch was 3 years old. The replacement I fitted was stickered 2012!

I've seen plenty of stalled fans in these as well, but like Mike I haven't spotted any weird networking issues related to it. It's usually brought to my attention by a staff member who works nearby pointing out that weird noises have been coming from the cabinet :)

That's one nice thing about the core switches; most of them light up a fault LED on the front if the fan RPMs go out of bound.

Pete

[Mike Etheridge]

The fan noise form the core cab is huge. I’ll have to get something done, I used to think it was funny but not so much now.

Mike

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[Matt Strickland]

I had mine supplied by AT at the time. Was quite a few years ago tho.

I didnt replace heatsinks if they were still intack, just the fans.

Took about an hour per cabinet of 3 switches, put also had the aircompressor to clean out the cabinet, dust etc while I was making a mess.

Matt

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[Bevan McNaughton]

The x908 XEM's had a real bad run of fans failing, the new v2 XEM's (blade modules) are fanless but have bigger internal heatsinks which helps. Unplugging  & replugging 2 fibres & SFP's is probably the worst part of the exercise.

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