Offsite Backups
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Sam McNeill
May 10, 2018, 4:25:26 PM5/10/18
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HI Guys,
Perhaps a topic for Friday discussion!
I was talking to a few IT admins in schools recently about their existing backup solutions and the various ways this is being managed in schools.
The last school I was working in had "cross-site" backups happening when I arrived i.e. from one building to another.
I helped set up a reciprocal "off-site" backup with another school where both schools placed storage at the other's site and set up VPN connectivity for the backups. This worked pretty well.
What I'm learning though is perhaps not many schools are doing off site backups (as above, or tape). I know most schools are leveraging G Drive or O365 in some capacity for document storage, but wondering what else may be in the works in terms of more genuine backup/DR.
I know the MoE keeps pushing cloud, but I'm wondering if there have been schools that have been totally caught out e.g. school fire, and lost all on-prem infrastructure and backups?
Did any schools in the Chch earthquake lose data?
@Tim Harper - would it be possible for a school to recover most student/academic data through a combination of ENROL and things like NZQA grades submissions? Would SiSi solve some of these risks?
With virtualisation pretty much everywhere now, the ability to stand up VM snapshots in various clouds / environments makes some of this a bit easier but backup/recovery can still seem like a big deal because true, major recoveries of data, is not something most IT admins have to do on a regular basis (thankfully).
Cheers
Sam
Alistair Baird
May 10, 2018, 4:42:56 PM5/10/18
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Haven't looked at it recently, but cost (of having sufficient off site cloud storage) and speed of access was an issue. It takes most of the night to back up cross site. (11pm - 5am typically to backup print server (which also hosts some other database programmes for finance and counsellors), DC server x 2, SMS server) on a 10GB link,
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Kevin Whelan
May 10, 2018, 4:48:36 PM5/10/18
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All the more reason for microsoft to give us some azure services and storage :)
Bevan McNaughton
May 10, 2018, 5:43:12 PM5/10/18
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We have our own hosted storage over a 10GB link in the main city.
A centralised data cloud for schools could be one option, however with the push by the MoE to go to almost fully clouded solutions it may be a matter of time for many to be 100% cloud.
A centralised data cloud for schools could be one option, however with the push by the MoE to go to almost fully clouded solutions it may be a matter of time for many to be 100% cloud.
We have had the push here however some need reminding that a classroom of students with Photoshop or Permiere data will cause some major fuss on almost any clouded solution.
After all, The cloud is simply someone else's server!
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Bevan McNaughton
Intranet Manager
MCP, MTCINE, CAP, UEWA, Google Ed.
Southland Girls' High School
328 Tweed Street
Invercargill 9812
Phone: +64 3 211 6030
Fax: +64 3 216 9010
Mobile: 027 223 2144
Arnold Santos
May 10, 2018, 5:57:02 PM5/10/18
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Would it be nice to have MS Azure Services and Storage be part of the MS-MOE Agreement as free for NZ School? ; )
On Fri, 11 May 2018 at 09:43, Bevan McNaughton <bevan.mc...@southlandgirls.school.nz> wrote:
We have our own hosted storage over a 10GB link in the main city.
A centralised data cloud for schools could be one option, however with the push by the MoE to go to almost fully clouded solutions it may be a matter of time for many to be 100% cloud.We have had the push here however some need reminding that a classroom of students with Photoshop or Permiere data will cause some major fuss on almost any clouded solution.After all, The cloud is simply someone else's server!
On 11 May 2018 at 08:48, Kevin Whelan <kwhel...@gmail.com> wrote:
All the more reason for microsoft to give us some azure services and storage :)
On Friday, May 11, 2018 at 8:25:26 AM UTC+12, Sam McNeill wrote:HI Guys,Perhaps a topic for Friday discussion!I was talking to a few IT admins in schools recently about their existing backup solutions and the various ways this is being managed in schools.The last school I was working in had "cross-site" backups happening when I arrived i.e. from one building to another.I helped set up a reciprocal "off-site" backup with another school where both schools placed storage at the other's site and set up VPN connectivity for the backups. This worked pretty well.What I'm learning though is perhaps not many schools are doing off site backups (as above, or tape). I know most schools are leveraging G Drive or O365 in some capacity for document storage, but wondering what else may be in the works in terms of more genuine backup/DR.I know the MoE keeps pushing cloud, but I'm wondering if there have been schools that have been totally caught out e.g. school fire, and lost all on-prem infrastructure and backups?Did any schools in the Chch earthquake lose data?@Tim Harper - would it be possible for a school to recover most student/academic data through a combination of ENROL and things like NZQA grades submissions? Would SiSi solve some of these risks?With virtualisation pretty much everywhere now, the ability to stand up VM snapshots in various clouds / environments makes some of this a bit easier but backup/recovery can still seem like a big deal because true, major recoveries of data, is not something most IT admins have to do on a regular basis (thankfully).CheersSam
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--Bevan McNaughtonIntranet ManagerMCP, MTCINE, CAP, UEWA, Google Ed.Southland Girls' High School328 Tweed StreetInvercargill 9812Phone: +64 3 211 6030Fax: +64 3 216 9010Mobile: 027 223 2144
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Arnold B. Santos
ICT Systems Administrator
Queenstown Primary School
________________________
ICT Systems Administrator
Queenstown Primary School
________________________
Apple Certified Support Professional 10.11
Apple Certified Technical Coordinator 10.8e-mail : arn...@queenstown.school.nz
web : www.queenstown.school.nz
Julian Davison
May 10, 2018, 6:04:12 PM5/10/18
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Standard disclaimer about data sovereignty/geo-location :)
On 11 May 2018 at 09:56, Arnold Santos <arn...@queenstown.school.nz> wrote:
Would it be nice to have MS Azure Services and Storage be part of the MS-MOE Agreement as free for NZ School? ; )
On Fri, 11 May 2018 at 09:43, Bevan McNaughton <bevan.mcnaughton@southlandgirls.school.nz> wrote:
We have our own hosted storage over a 10GB link in the main city.
A centralised data cloud for schools could be one option, however with the push by the MoE to go to almost fully clouded solutions it may be a matter of time for many to be 100% cloud.We have had the push here however some need reminding that a classroom of students with Photoshop or Permiere data will cause some major fuss on almost any clouded solution.After all, The cloud is simply someone else's server!
On 11 May 2018 at 08:48, Kevin Whelan <kwhel...@gmail.com> wrote:
All the more reason for microsoft to give us some azure services and storage :)
On Friday, May 11, 2018 at 8:25:26 AM UTC+12, Sam McNeill wrote:HI Guys,Perhaps a topic for Friday discussion!I was talking to a few IT admins in schools recently about their existing backup solutions and the various ways this is being managed in schools.The last school I was working in had "cross-site" backups happening when I arrived i.e. from one building to another.I helped set up a reciprocal "off-site" backup with another school where both schools placed storage at the other's site and set up VPN connectivity for the backups. This worked pretty well.What I'm learning though is perhaps not many schools are doing off site backups (as above, or tape). I know most schools are leveraging G Drive or O365 in some capacity for document storage, but wondering what else may be in the works in terms of more genuine backup/DR.I know the MoE keeps pushing cloud, but I'm wondering if there have been schools that have been totally caught out e.g. school fire, and lost all on-prem infrastructure and backups?Did any schools in the Chch earthquake lose data?@Tim Harper - would it be possible for a school to recover most student/academic data through a combination of ENROL and things like NZQA grades submissions? Would SiSi solve some of these risks?With virtualisation pretty much everywhere now, the ability to stand up VM snapshots in various clouds / environments makes some of this a bit easier but backup/recovery can still seem like a big deal because true, major recoveries of data, is not something most IT admins have to do on a regular basis (thankfully).CheersSam
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Sam McNeill
May 10, 2018, 8:10:03 PM5/10/18
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Hi Julian,
Always a good discussion point re: data sovereignty. Is there info out there to suggest AU is out of the question?
My understanding the NZ Govt is pretty open to this:
Cabinet’s Cloud First policy requires agencies to adopt cloud services in preference to traditional IT systems because they are more cost effective, agile, are generally more secure, and provide greater choice.
Cabinet requires agencies to adopt cloud services
Cabinet requires agencies to:
- adopt cloud services in preference to traditional IT systems
- make adoption decisions on a case-by-case basis following a risk assessment
- only store data classified as RESTRICTED or below in a cloud service, whether it is hosted onshore or offshore
I did blog about some of this and the impact on education here.
The Government Chief Digital Officer (GCDO) was even more explicit about this in December last year (have a read here)
The bandwidth issues raised earlier may be a relevant factor but as far as I know the NZ Govt is pretty comfortable with it, provided the data classification is restricted or below...
Cheers
Sam
On Friday, May 11, 2018 at 10:04:12 AM UTC+12, Julian Davison wrote:
Standard disclaimer about data sovereignty/geo-location :)
On 11 May 2018 at 09:56, Arnold Santos <arn...@queenstown.school.nz> wrote:
Would it be nice to have MS Azure Services and Storage be part of the MS-MOE Agreement as free for NZ School? ; )
Alistair Baird
May 10, 2018, 8:17:55 PM5/10/18
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Data classification ? So what does NZ Govt classify Student data ? With all their contact details etc that we have to keep from some parent's through court order....
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--Bevan McNaughtonIntranet ManagerMCP, MTCINE, CAP, UEWA, Google Ed.Southland Girls' High SchoolPhone: +64 3 211 6030Fax: +64 3 216 9010Mobile: 027 223 2144
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________________________Apple Certified Support Professional 10.11Apple Certified Technical Coordinator 10.8e-mail : arn...@queenstown.school.nzweb : www.queenstown.school.nz
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Jonathan Webster
May 10, 2018, 8:22:23 PM5/10/18
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Yeah spot on!
On the original topic, think it's worth calling out the distinction between offsite storage and an offsite backup with versioning and retention policy etc. Also VM snapshots as a backup strategy is bound to end in tears - so hope nobody is fully relying on that :)
I use a combination of Cloud to Cloud backups, VM image backups (to disk), and file level backups (to disk). In the past, I've built and maintained very large backup platforms for a NZ cloud hosting provider using Commvault, Avamar and another product which I hope to never come across again and totally agree that everyone should have a backup strategy, it can't just be an afterthought.
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Tim Harper
May 10, 2018, 8:30:39 PM5/10/18
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Hi Alistair,
regards,
Tim Harper
Phone 03 443 5167 (messages cannot be left on this number)
Mobile 027 443 1236
t...@mtaspiring.school.nz
www.mtaspiring.school.nz
the details about the security classifications relating to data are here:
We have been addressing this exact question as a part of SISI.
NZ Student data does not look to be in the "Restricted" category. The definition of "Restricted" is:
RESTRICTED
The RESTRICTED security classification should be used when the compromise of information would be likely to affect the national interests in an adverse manner.
For instance, where compromise could:
- adversely affect diplomatic relations
- hinder the operational effectiveness or security of New Zealand or friendly force
- hinder the security of New Zealand forces or friendly forces
- adversely affect the internal stability or economic wellbeing of New Zealand or friendly countries.
Student data would seem to fit at the level of "Sensitive" under the first bullet point of the definition below:
SENSITIVE
The SENSITIVE security classification should be used when the compromise of information would be likely to damage the interest of New Zealand or endanger the safety of its citizens.
For instance, where compromise could:
- endanger the safety of any person
- seriously damage the economy of New Zealand by prematurely disclosing decisions to change or continue government economic or financial policies relating to:
- exchange rates or the control of overseas exchange transactions
- the regulation of banking or credit
- taxation
- the stability, control, and adjustment of prices of goods and services, rents and other costs and rates of wages, salaries and other incomes
- the borrowing of money by the New Zealand Government
- the entering into of overseas trade agreements.
- impede government negotiations (including commercial and industrial negotiations).
IN CONFIDENCE
The IN CONFIDENCE security classification should be used when the compromise of information would be likely to prejudice the maintenance of law and order, impede the effective conduct of government in New Zealand or affect adversely the privacy of its citizens.
For instance, where compromise could:
- prejudice the maintenance of law
- adversely affect the privacy of natural persons
- prejudice citizens' commercial information
- prejudice obligation of confidence
- prejudice measures protecting the health and safety of members of the public
- prejudice the substantial economic interest of New Zealand
- prejudice measures that prevent or mitigate material loss to members of the public
- breach constitutional conventions
- impede the effective conduct of public affairs
- breach legal professional privilege
- impede government commercial activities
- result in the disclosure or use of official information for improper gain or advantage.
regards,
Tim Harper
Phone 03 443 5167 (messages cannot be left on this number)
Mobile 027 443 1236
t...@mtaspiring.school.nz
www.mtaspiring.school.nz
Julian Davison
May 10, 2018, 8:38:03 PM5/10/18
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I will note that I'm not suggesting that anything (in particular) is (or isn't) out of the question. More that before launching into one of the cloud options people make sure to have paused and thought about the non-technical implications of their decision.
There are obvious technical considerations around access (particularly speed, reliability and location) which are usually the first thoughts - transferring large media files typically at the top of the list; but there are other considerations such as the above 'Cloud First', potential data-mining of stored content by the cloud provider (encrypted backups stored in the cloud are obviously 'safer'), potential for data breach...
That we have people such as yourself, Sam, with ready answers to some of these important questions is a great sign of how times have changed. Providers can often now actually answer the question - but people still need to be asking it!
J,
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--Bevan McNaughtonIntranet ManagerMCP, MTCINE, CAP, UEWA, Google Ed.Southland Girls' High SchoolPhone: +64 3 211 6030Fax: +64 3 216 9010Mobile: 027 223 2144
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Sam McNeill
May 10, 2018, 8:43:37 PM5/10/18
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Cool response Julian, and 100% agree with you that questions are the best thing!
I've been having my own "question time" over an initiative with a provider of a service to my family and
a privacy issue it threw up ...
It's what I love about this group - lots of diverse questions and responses and also the variety of needs/requirements to deliver technology into the schools we serve.
@Tim - interested in your response above given your direct engagements with the MoE around SiSi. I know you've used the terms "seems to fit" so I take it you're applying your own interpretation of those classifications rather than necessarily conveying a direct resposne from the MoE about student data classification?
I might go away and ask a couple of people around this too ....
Cheers
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Andrew Godfrey
May 10, 2018, 9:01:30 PM5/10/18
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Cabinet’s Cloud First policy requires agencies to adopt cloud services in preference to traditional IT systems
So this would cover MoE as an education agency and any service that they provide to schools, but will it also mandate school BoTs and tertiary providers which are crown entities? Maybe I'm out of my depth here though as far as legal terminology goes.
Andrew Godfrey | Network Manager
On 11 May 2018 at 12:10, Sam McNeill <s...@mcneill.co.nz> wrote:
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Tim Harper
May 10, 2018, 9:30:36 PM5/10/18
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Hi Sam,
yes - these are my interpretations.
Hi Andrew,
I am unsure what the definition of an "education agency" is too. The best I could find is this:
Interestingly this defines Te Kura as an education agency but not other schools!
This document https://www.education.govt.nz/assets/Uploads/NZ-Education-System-Overview-publication-web-format.pdf also refers to "educational agencies" in the same sentence as providers and teachers. Given MoE's own published push towards moving schools to the cloud (http://services.education.govt.nz/cloud/) it would seem that agencies may well encompass schools. It is an interesting question.
regards,
Tim Harper
Phone 03 443 5167 (messages cannot be left on this number)
Mobile 027 443 1236
t...@mtaspiring.school.nz
www.mtaspiring.school.nz
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--Bevan McNaughtonIntranet ManagerMCP, MTCINE, CAP, UEWA, Google Ed.Southland Girls' High SchoolPhone: +64 3 211 6030Fax: +64 3 216 9010Mobile: 027 223 2144
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Sam McNeill
May 12, 2018, 11:12:58 PM5/12/18
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Hi All,
So I exchanged messages with someone internally who has worked a lot with the various Govt agencies and he shared the publicly-known example of Plunket that has been using MS Dynamics online in the MSFT public cloud, storing patient records - this has passed all necessary approvals. He believed there are no prohibitions about putting NZ health data in the public cloud which probably suggests student data is also going to be fine.
This is a good overview powerpoint from the GCDO "Managing Jurisdictional Risk for Public Cloud Services" which could be a good read if you've got further questions:
Cheers
Sam
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Tim Harper
May 13, 2018, 5:12:09 AM5/13/18
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Hi Sam,
I did mean to add a reply to your original post!
Most NZ SMSs are web based with no data is stored at the school. I know that Assembly, eTap, linc-Ed and MUSAC Edge will all have backup systems in place to restore data in the event of a disaster.
I am do not know about PC Schools and Synergetic processes.
I do know that my own school is responsible for backing up our local KAMAR data. With regard to hosted KAMAR we would need someone from KAMAR to comment.
ENROL and NZQA would not be a good way to begin to rebuild SMS data. There would be too much missing especially regarding pastoral and achievement data. The data stored with NZQA is only relevant for achievement standards and unit standards that have been reported to NZQA.
SISI certainly has the ability solve some of these risks where SMS data is locally hosted at a school.
regards,
Tim Harper
Phone 03 443 5167 (messages cannot be left on this number)
Mobile 027 443 1236
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Sam McNeill
May 13, 2018, 4:37:39 PM5/13/18
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Thanks Tim,
I guess I was thinking mostly about Kamar schools since they have such significant market share in the secondary school space and therefore most of those schools should probably be thinking about some form of "off site" backups given a total destruction of their school site would be catastrophic in terms of data loss, especially given your comments around ENROL/NZQA.
I wonder how many Board Trustees/Governors are thinking along these lines...?
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--Bevan McNaughtonIntranet ManagerMCP, MTCINE, CAP, UEWA, Google Ed.Southland Girls' High SchoolPhone: +64 3 211 6030Fax: +64 3 216 9010Mobile: 027 223 2144
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Sue Way
May 13, 2018, 5:03:27 PM5/13/18
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Hi fellow Techies,
We are a Kamar School. Host our own servers on some nice virtual infrastructure.
I have a netgear NAS which has some cool functionality to copy to the cloud. I use Veeam as my Backup and a copy of the whole VM backup updates to a google drive, nice to have unlimited space and no cost..
If disaster strikes I pull the VM down from the cloud and throw it on a host do some networkie stuff and we have it going again..
Sue Way
Wellington Girls' College
Kent
May 13, 2018, 5:36:22 PM5/13/18
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Hi All,
With regard to hosted KAMAR we would need someone from KAMAR to comment.
Information regarding our hosting environment is documented on our web site: https://www.kamar.nz/105654
We have two separate data centres - one located in the Mayoral Drive Spark location and connected to the same core switch as N4L. Our backup site is based in Tauranga with similar hardware for redundancy purposes in the case of a disaster. Our current single point of failure is our Spark internet connection.
It's coming up on one year since we started offering our hosted version and so far we have ~8% of KAMAR schools being hosted - including schools from Northland down to Invercargill, and ranging in school size of 100 students upwards to one school with 2000+ students.
We are also aware that a number of schools are instead using NewEraIT's hosting environment and we assume that they are taking appropriate measures to back up.
SISI certainly has the ability solve some of these risks where SMS data is locally hosted at a school.
SISI will certainly address some of these issues for student data (including assessment and attendance data) but there is still a lot of data stored in KAMAR that won't be included (Financial, Timetable structure, Nurse, etc) - at least not initially and some possibly never (Guidance Counsellor notes).
Regards
Kent
KAMAR Limited
Mount Maunganui
Kevin Whelan
May 13, 2018, 5:53:32 PM5/13/18
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Most NZ SMS? I seem to be well behind the loop then with KAMAR still local
Alistair Baird
May 13, 2018, 6:14:41 PM5/13/18
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With no internet now for over 32 hours, kinda glad we haven't got a totalky cloud based SMS and Domain server. Bad enough having to try and answer the .."When will it be back up?" questions to all staff.
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Sam McNeill
Oct 23, 2018, 10:30:18 AM10/23/18
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Hi Team,
Just looping back on the Data Sovereignty issues raised in this thread - some interesting updates from the Privacy Commission who have moved all of their services to Azure. Here's the official link:
And the key messages they called out themselves:
Key messages from the Privacy Impact Assessment (PIA) if you do not read it all;
- The Microsoft cloud solution best meets our infrastructure requirements and effectively addresses our current system constraints
- Taking into account government policy, the law and a risk-based approach, the Microsoft cloud solution remains the preferred and prudent option
- Microsoft offers industry leading data security, and better data security than we can currently deliver
- We are comfortable that the regulatory framework in Australia is adequate and provides an equivalent level of protection
- The storage of our data on an offshore cloud solution involves a theoretical risk that an overseas government or law enforcement agency could make a request for our data. However, the likelihood of this occurring is extremely low
- Adequate contractual and process controls are in place to ensure that any lawful request will be redirected to us for consideration
- The combination of assurances, contractual provisions, independent audits and certifications, and the applicability of local and overseas privacy regulations will effectively ensure that we have meaningful control over our data while it is stored in the cloud
- Making this PIA available, updating our privacy statement and taking steps to engage with any concerns will effectively ensure that we are as open and transparent as possible about our use of offshore public cloud services
- On balance, we are satisfied that the Microsoft solution provides the best overall outcome, delivering to all our needs while reasonably protecting individual privacy
Hope this is useful to schools weighing up perceived risks around moving to cloud.
Cheers,
Julian Davison
Oct 23, 2018, 4:13:05 PM10/23/18
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Two of these stood out to me:
5. The storage of our data on an offshore cloud solution involves a theoretical risk that an overseas government or law enforcement agency could make a request for our data. However, the likelihood of this occurring is extremely low
6. Adequate contractual and process controls are in place to ensure that any lawful request will be redirected to us for consideration
While I recognise a balance must be struck between the theoretical and practical worlds, there's always an inherently greater risk in opting for the "it won't happen to me" rationalisation. While I don't believe that was the only consideration in this case (other points show clear thought around "what happens when it does occur?") I'm always uneasy when "it's extremely unlikely" is included in these lists.
I'm surprised that lawful (particularly in the case of law enforcement) requests would always be redirected to a customer for consideration.
J,
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Kevin Whelan
Oct 23, 2018, 4:32:40 PM10/23/18
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unfortunate choice of acronyms PIA ,
regarding point 4 I saw yesterday while poking around the console that all services of ours where AUS except Teams
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