high end 3d printer

[Patrick Raines]

Hi all,

I'm a biologist who has spent a year trying to master as much of the hardware and software of 3d printing.  For some of that time I have been around the Hack Factory.  The idea of the Hack Factory buying a high end 3d printer has been tossed around by the board members and I just wanted to write in saying that I have changed my mind on the topic.

Previously when asked to give a recommendation to a board member about a 3D printer I said, I have the money to go buy almost any 3d printer on the market place but I am stopping my investment at the 3 relatively unreliable printers that I own because I think what I am learning is that all 3d printers are unreliable and I just need to learn to calibrate my printers better.

Well I still think that recalibrating my machines will eventually get me devices that are reliable, I'm having a strong urge to buy a 4th 3d printer. the flash forge creator pro dropped their price to $999. 
I got to work on the flash forge creator pro during my 1 month membership at Nordeast Maker and it was really nice.  the Dual Extrusion is a not that useful for 2 color printing but extruder jams are one of the most common problems with a 3d printer. when you have two extruders you switch to non-jammed extruder and then clear the jam at your convenience.  okay now that I have written that sentence I can imagine how many times someone would leave an extruder jammed fully intending to fix it later but not getting back to it for a week...

another cool and common feature of the creator pro is that it prints off of SD cards.  I have found that printing off an SD card removes a lot of errors caused by the printer and computer talking to each other poorly.

https://pintstein.wordpress.com/2016/03/19/the-cambrian-explosion-of-3d-printing-why-im-not-investing-in-a-high-end-3d-printer/

I don't know what level of nice convenient 3d printer will cause there to be a base of members who actually go to the hack factory for 3d printing but this might be it.  If I buy one, it is staying at my apartment.  My Velleman can continue to live in the basement as long as ya'll want access to it.

[Patrick Raines]

well, I am not sure if the silence of the 8 people that viewed this means that they think the Hack Factory should not have a high end 3d printer.  I decided to purchase this printer: http://www.monoprice.com/product?p_id=11614

but as I said before, this high end printer will live at my apartment and the velleman can continue to live at the Hack Factory and is open for all members who have been trained to use it (taken a class or spoken to me or Alex).

[zranger]

Well I will give you some feedback, but I do not see it making any difference in your question....     I would love to have access to a 3d printer, and a better one would be a logical stop on my learning path.... But why I did not chime in was that it is the Hack Factory itself that keeps me from playing with them....   I got a bum hip, and the flight of stairs is a non-starter for me... I am going to build a Prusa this year, but until then places like the ST Paul Public library, and others are where I am looking to get access to a printer.  The one thing that the Hack Factory has is Community that is not all first timers.... Between the Self taught, the Students from various schools and professionals, the experience and out of the box fixes that are at the Hack Factory and other Maker Spaces cannot be matched.  The willingness of the members to put forth time and machines to help others learn and produce is why the TCMaker space is such a rare find. 

Just my 2 cents worth.

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[Patrick Raines]

thanks for the feed back.  I had no idea there were members interested in the 3d printers that can't go to the basement.

[zranger]

Far as I know it is just me, and I am not currently a member... so no issue..

[Patrick Raines]

I unboxed my Monoprice Thursday and I am loving it.  The hack factory is really missing out by not having high quality 3d printer around.  I think I might host an open house where people can come check out my new machine and choose if they want to sign a petition to get a monoprice for the artifactory.  I live in the hamline midway area would people show up for a sunday brunch?

On Sunday, March 20, 2016 at 6:23:54 AM UTC-5, Patrick Raines wrote:

[zranger]

So it has been almost 6 months, how do you like the Monoprice printer now?  I am thinking of dipping my toes in on a select mini, but may hold off a couple more months to save up for the next tier...

Also where do you buy your PLA?  and which do you use?

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[Patrick Raines]

I love my monoprice, it is still my go to printer.  the software that comes with it is not good but it runs Makerware or simplify 3D generated code like a charm

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[Patrick Raines]

Inland PLA is available from Micro Center for $16 a kilogram (the lowest price I have found) and I have found no indication that it is of inferior quality

On Saturday, September 17, 2016 at 10:59:43 PM UTC-5, Booka wrote:

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[Matt Symanietz]

Is there still an interest in getting a Flashforge / MakerBot clone for the makerspace?

I just recently joined the makerspace to learn more about laser cutting and came across this forum. I'm involved quite a bit in 3D Printing and CAD as a profession (I'm a mechanical design contractor). I am also a reseller of 3D printers and supplies for DIY electronics. I have a web store here www.makerrx.com If the makerspace or any of the members are interested in getting a flashforge printer I could probably offer a deal. Maybe we could set up a TC Maker discount or something?

Let me know if anyone has interest in this? 

On Sunday, March 20, 2016 at 6:23:54 AM UTC-5, Patrick Raines wrote:

[Chris Gallaty]

There always seems to be lots of interest, but where all of this usually falls down is the unit getting maintained. I don't think anyone is opposed to having one, per say, but the question is how to prevent it from ending up like *every* other 3D printer we've had at the Space.

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[Matt Symanietz]

Yeah I can see your point. How is maintenance handled for other machines in the space? Can you give me some more background on what printers have been at the space and the impression people have had?

[Chris Gallaty]

I think the answer to this is quite simple. The Hack Factory tends to be a 'Do-ocracy' when it comes to getting things done. I can't speak for the space in general, but we have tools at the space that are owned by members. The best bet on this would be to get a group of folks together to do a group purchase of a printer. It could be housed in the basement where things are presently. Having a group of folks, invested in the tool would insure that it stays maintained. Folks would could either chip in for group buys on filament or just source their own. I know we had a member working on a filament extruder at one point as well.

On Fri, Jan 20, 2017 at 4:58 PM, Matt Symanietz <matt.sy...@gmail.com> wrote:

Yeah I can see your point. How is maintenance handled for other machines in the space? Can you give me some more background on what printers have been at the space and the impression people have had?

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[Matt Symanietz]

Thanks for the insight! How many would you estimate are interested in printing at the space? has anyone ever gotten a "show of hands" so to speak?

[George Gelly]

I would raise my hand if we decided to do something like a shared ownership loan to the HF... where that small group was responsible for maintenance and training.  I could be a seriously positive addition to the space.

[Matt Symanietz]

Ok... I'm thinking that this is something that needs to happen. As Chris stated earlier the makerspace runs as a "do-ocracy" so I would be willing to spearhead this. I might be able to get Flashforge involved or maybe MakerRx could donate a used model.

It sounds as though it's good to incentivize maintenance somehow or at least have an active user base that know how to do the maintenance.

Could I get like 3-5 Volunteers who I could teach printing/maintenance too? No need to put money up for a printer just if you think this is something you could get into and rally behind.

[George Gelly]

Count me in.  You should as Rick Wiggins (copied here) as well.

[Chris Gallaty]

Again, the primary component of this is the labor, more so than the cash. 3D printers are 'hot' from a interest standpoint. By that I mean if there was a regular community using the device, and perhaps even someone teaching classes on the subject, that money could be funneled back into the project. As I've said, I've not seen that anyone was opposed to a program around this, it's just been that historically, the interest in chipping in *time* has not been proportional to the amount of maintenance that these devices have required. I think if we got a community, regular standing meetings and classes, you could very likely have the whole endeavor fund itself quite nicely. The rub is getting the ball rolling.

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[Matt Symanietz]

I understand your point, and I think I can see what you’re hinting at. Like I said before I supply all things 3D printing and electronics to schools, hobbyists and businesses. In addition to being a contract mechanical designer. Now if you believe this is an issue with getting volunteer labor, i'll follow your experience in how the makerspace operates.

Your idea of monetizing it would probably work. I would be willing to spearhead the maintenance and training if members wanted to pay for training or purchase filament from me or a combo of both. Maybe offer discounts to people who want to do maintenance?? I’m spit balling here let me know your ideas.   

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[Chris Gallaty]

Its quite common (and expected) for classes to roll the cost of materials in. Clearly you want to cover consumables. What I was saying is that if the folks teaching are into deferring payment for their time, there is not an issue with directing funds from the classes back into buying newer/more/better printers. I would say that it's likely not something you want to try all in one shot. (Unless you can of course, drum up support for the cause.) Success of involvement is what will drive success of the program. To that end, clearly the better the machine, the easier it is to maintain and the faster more reliable the print, which in turn means that more members can schedule time. The printing part itself devolves to more of a Kinkos type model for maintenance. The success is going to be around getting and teaching the tools that folks need to work on unique projects vs just yanking something off of Thingaverse. Again, getting computers to do modeling has been less of an issue than getting a group of folks that are willing to get them set up, get the right stuff on them and keep them running. We have access as a MakerSpace to some high end tools and we've had things like SolidWorks classes in the past. I think though that there would be more success in getting a group of local folks to evaluate the free tools out there (warts and all) and get a group of SMEs to help make things more accessible to noobs with little budget. Again. All just thoughts. My one lament these days is that time is not a resource that I have much of as of late. I'm been wanting to help spearhead a program with my children's school, but have not had the time on that either. I think the concept is not only valuable to younger folks these days, but maybe to my kids what access was to an Apple ][ or the like was in my youth. The tech is not going way and clearly has a permanent slot in the Maker tool chest. We've just (and we are not alone) not been as successful in getting momentum at the space behind the movement.

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[Matt Symanietz]

I really appreciate your insight here! Do you have any time to meet up so I can pick your brain in person?  

[George Gelly]

Chris and Matt.

I really like the comments and the direction your conversation is going.

Also, I'm keenly interested in 3D printing _and_ how TCMaker is evolving as an organization.  Like Chris, I have feel strongly that this technology (along with others) is a basis for how my children (20, 6, and 4-years old) can be successful going forward... and also that TCMaker is in a unique position to facilitate community learning.

Sadly (but in a good way for this conversation), I have a good bit of time on my hands and have been coordinating several projects at TCMaker (the Finishing Room, the Member Storage cleanup, the Classroom Refurbish, and the Machine Shop reorganization).  So, I have some of the rare *time* commodity to lend if you are open to my participating.

I'd be happy to help if you are getting a group together or even have some initial conversations that could create something like a proposal/charter for the TCMaker Board.

I'll keep my eyes on this forum (or you can email me at geo...@gelly.net).

Thanks,

George

[metis]

matt,  

in general, popping by wednesday evenings at the open house is a great time to have a meatspace conversation with folks.   

in regard to what's been discussed thus far:  

a multiple owner machine gets complicated if folks decide to leave/want special privileges.  it may be more apt to set up some kind of donation focus, e.g. w're gonna buy an xyz for TCM,  donate what you want for a tax write off, or your contribution will get you 50% of your contribution towards filament once it's here.  (donate $100, get $50 worth of free filament for use on that printer)     

have a plan in place for at least 2 power users to lead regular classes on it, each ideally monthly until interest drops off, then maybe quarterly:

- one entry level/orientation to get folks started, cheap/free under 2 hrs enough to use it and make their own mistakes but not mistakes that will damage/mess up the machine   maybe $10 for filament

- one "how to use it well and not waste your money on bad prints"   that's several hours/an afternoon long, includes model optimization, filament choice , print trouble shooting, etc etc.  maybe $60-100 and includes an hour? half hour? of instructor trouble shooting/print one on one some time in the week or so after the class 

figure out an *easy* way to measure filament use, and for filament swapping.  charge folks nominally more than the cost of TCM provided filament, which they have to use so it's consistent in the machine, and bought in reasonable bulk so cheaper.  fees go back to buy more filament and save up for parts/better machine.  

the above model has served well on the laser cutter, even on the honor system for time used. you may well be able to get the board to front some/all of the cost of the machine if you have an instructor lined up who pledges to donate some/all of their fee portion  to reimburse the organization for the purchase.

i'd encourage you to look at (2) machines.   one that's a ***very*** reliable smaller unit with minimal setup and one that's a low end *actual pro* quality machine.  for a lot of folks just getting a simple print out is cool, the serious users will want a serious machine.  the folks who want a real machine will want something that can put out a good print, like a uPrint SE.  case in point, downtime aside, the shapoko gets more use than any of the other CNC routers we have, in no small part because it's easy to use, and well supported, but the 4x4 CNC gets regular use whenever it's working.   

it may be worth reaching out to several manufacturers (in a coordinated fashion, not everyone calling them randomly) as for example about 5 years back Stratasys offered to sell us a refurb/demo model for well below market price, but not what we could afford at the time.  with more demonstrated non-profit life under our belt that may improve.    I can reach out to CTC who does 3d printing locally and see if they may have a machine that they're pondering getting rid of as well.  I've been meaning to bug them about some CAD licencing fo rus anyway.

-m

[Steve Peterson]

I have a Stratasys contact in their field org who is an avid maker, if needed.

[Matt Symanietz]

Metis,

Thanks for the background on how the laser/cnc router training has turned out. I would be open in getting a group together on wednesday to discuss this in detail (ill bring the donuts)

I have time to devote to this and would be totally willing to lead the charge on it. When it comes to getting a pro printer I can see what strings I can pull. I have hands on experience with high end stratasys fortus machines in industry (like 6 figure captial equipment) so I can speak to how pro tools might end up working out. Consumables on those machines will run you 5-10 times the cost of consumables for what would be considered consumer or prosumer printers. I have connections for CAD software too... although CTC is a reseller of Autodesk if I remember right, that could be useful. 

Let's get a show of hands for who can make the wednesday night meeting? Can we get some members of the board to attend as well?

[George Gelly]

I can NOT make it tomorrow.  Next Wednesday (2/1) would work fine for me, if you have a meeting then.

===========================
George Gelly
geo...@gelly.net
Mobile: (415) 444-6621
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[Chris Gallaty]

Hmm, it would seem that these guys missed an opportunity: https://support.generosity.com/hc/en-us/articles/212679537-FAQs-for-Donors They should establish a base processing fee, handle the over head of validating the non-profit, and handle the tax deductible receipt for them. We've talked in the past about the notion of a "Non-profit Kickstarter" for equipment and projects at the Hack Factory. i.e. Someone goes through and takes the time to make the 'pitch' for the project and gets what the budget needs to be to buy the equipment or jump start the project. Ideally it would be nice to be two fold as in you can 'pledge' a bit of your membership to a specific cause to help with maintenance costs (which also gives us metrics on the memberships interests) but then you are free to go above and beyond with what projects you want to see move forward. Kickstarter has gotten too close to Amazon in some folks minds, but it would be fun for things like a laser cutter or a 3D printer to have similar 'pledge levels' by which you get a key chain or something (ideally from a fun project that helps validate the machine is working.) Something not physical like a voucher to attend a class on using the machine would be a good option there. (Starting to see 'yet another' website project here) Again, I think the big thing is working the maintenance and the community into the deal to keep things maintained. Even if it's just a pledge to have a standing meeting or representative available during the Wed night open house.

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[Matt Symanietz]

George,

Wednesday 2/1 would work for me. Let's set that as the date.

Chris,

Great thoughts! I agree with the strong community ties. Let's roll it into the meeting on 2/1 

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[Matt Symanietz]

Just a reminder, Meeting tonight to discuss 3D Printing at the makerspace. What time works for those attending?

[George Gelly]

I was planning on 7:00pm.  But could come earlier, if that would work for others.

===========================
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[ma...@makerrx.com]

All,

I attempted to post a new thread laying out my thoughts on the printer. I dont think It worked quite right because it never appeared to publish but someone was able to comment on it and now its on the thread??? 

Anyway let me know if you can find it and if you have interest.

Thanks,

Matt

[Scott Hill]

Your message got caught by the spam filter. I released it to the group in the wee hours this morning (acid reflux is so much fun!).

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[Patrick Raines]

Thanks so much Matt. I had a great morning helping Rick print his Ear mount design.  I feel confident that I could host a good 3D printing 101 class on april 8th and get everyone comfortable with this superior machine.