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Is Eternal Recurrence the same as Reincarnation?

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Immortalist

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Feb 19, 2011, 5:58:46 PM2/19/11
to
In an infinite period of time, every possible
combination would at some time be attained
--Nietzsche

Eternal return (also known as "eternal recurrence") is a concept which
posits that the universe has been recurring, and will continue to
recur, in a self-similar form an infinite number of times across
infinite time and or infinite space. The concept initially inherent in
Indian philosophy was later found in ancient Egypt, and was
subsequently taken up by the Pythagoreans and Stoics. With the decline
of antiquity and the spread of Christianity, the concept fell into
disuse in the western world, though Friedrich Nietzsche resurrected
it.

...It is a purely physical concept, involving no supernatural
reincarnation, but the return of beings in the same bodies. Time is
viewed as being not linear but cyclical. ...the probability of a world
coming into existence exactly like our own is finite. If either time
or space are infinite then mathematics tells us that our existence
will recur an infinite number of times...

...Nietzsche contemplates the idea as potentially "horrifying and
paralyzing", and says that its burden is the "heaviest weight"
imaginable...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eternal_return
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friedrich_Nietzsche

sarge

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Feb 19, 2011, 6:07:41 PM2/19/11
to

Well, for most it would not be the same as reincarnation. In
reincarnation, in most ways this is conceived, something is retained
from previous incarnations. In eternal recurrence we simply have a
recurrence of sameness.

At various times some physicists have considered a form of eternal
recurrence possible.

sarge

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Feb 19, 2011, 6:10:07 PM2/19/11
to
On 20 Feb, 00:07, sarge <greasethew...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On 19 Feb, 23:58, Immortalist <reanimater_2...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > In an infinite period of time, every possible
> > combination would at some time be attained
> > --Nietzsche
>
> > Eternal return (also known as "eternal recurrence") is a concept which
> > posits that the universe has been recurring, and will continue to
> > recur, in a self-similar form an infinite number of times across
> > infinite time and or infinite space. The concept initially inherent in
> > Indian philosophy was later found in ancient Egypt, and was
> > subsequently taken up by the Pythagoreans and Stoics. With the decline
> > of antiquity and the spread of Christianity, the concept fell into
> > disuse in the western world, though Friedrich Nietzsche resurrected
> > it.
>
> > ...It is a purely physical concept, involving no supernatural
> > reincarnation, but the return of beings in the same bodies. Time is
> > viewed as being not linear but cyclical. ...the probability of a world
> > coming into existence exactly like our own is finite. If either time
> > or space are infinite then mathematics tells us that our existence
> > will recur an infinite number of times...
>
> > ...Nietzsche contemplates the idea as potentially "horrifying and
> > paralyzing", and says that its burden is the "heaviest weight"
> > imaginable...
>
> >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eternal_returnhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wi...

>
> Well, for most it would not be the same as reincarnation.  In
> reincarnation, in most ways this is conceived, something is retained
> from previous incarnations.   In eternal recurrence we simply have a
> recurrence of sameness.
>
> At various times some physicists have considered a form of eternal
> recurrence possible.

I could have been clearer. Something is retained, but there is also
development.

Immortalist

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Feb 19, 2011, 6:11:24 PM2/19/11
to
On Feb 19, 3:07 pm, sarge <greasethew...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On 19 Feb, 23:58, Immortalist <reanimater_2...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > In an infinite period of time, every possible
> > combination would at some time be attained
> > --Nietzsche
>
> > Eternal return (also known as "eternal recurrence") is a concept which
> > posits that the universe has been recurring, and will continue to
> > recur, in a self-similar form an infinite number of times across
> > infinite time and or infinite space. The concept initially inherent in
> > Indian philosophy was later found in ancient Egypt, and was
> > subsequently taken up by the Pythagoreans and Stoics. With the decline
> > of antiquity and the spread of Christianity, the concept fell into
> > disuse in the western world, though Friedrich Nietzsche resurrected
> > it.
>
> > ...It is a purely physical concept, involving no supernatural
> > reincarnation, but the return of beings in the same bodies. Time is
> > viewed as being not linear but cyclical. ...the probability of a world
> > coming into existence exactly like our own is finite. If either time
> > or space are infinite then mathematics tells us that our existence
> > will recur an infinite number of times...
>
> > ...Nietzsche contemplates the idea as potentially "horrifying and
> > paralyzing", and says that its burden is the "heaviest weight"
> > imaginable...
>
> >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eternal_returnhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wi...

>
> Well, for most it would not be the same as reincarnation.  In
> reincarnation, in most ways this is conceived, something is retained
> from previous incarnations.   In eternal recurrence we simply have a
> recurrence of sameness.
>
> At various times some physicists have considered a form of eternal
> recurrence possible.

We are "occurring" now, at least, so if we were recurring now or in
the future would we know it since everything would be as it was before?

k...@kymhorsell.com

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Feb 19, 2011, 6:25:02 PM2/19/11
to
In sci.skeptic Immortalist <reanima...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> In an infinite period of time, every possible
> combination would at some time be attained
> --Nietzsche
> Eternal return (also known as "eternal recurrence") is a concept which
> posits that the universe has been recurring, and will continue to
> recur, in a self-similar form an infinite number of times across
> infinite time and or infinite space. The concept initially inherent in
...

These ideas have an affinity for some of the more recent meanderings
in cosmology.

One question that naturally arises is "where/when am I"?

The usual answer is "probably in an average place/time". E.g. we ask
"what kind of star is the Sun". The answer is "an average star about
1/2-way through its lifetime".

But another answer has occured to me, no dount not original.

"When am I?" in relation to the world. The "most likely" time
to be alive is when there are the most humans. The implications
of "most" may be unsettling to some -- i.e. at later times there
are less.

With the simplist kinds of recurrence (usually "return"
implies a temporal ordering; but an infinite number of universes
might exist with no or restructed information flow between them)
neither of the above really apply -- i.e. there is no "average point"
in an infinite sequence; and if the sequence/set is akin to
"normal sequence" (in mathematics this sometimes means "contains every
possible configuration", maybe or maybe not with equal frequency),
there is really no point where the probability of "now" is greatest.

Philosphically it's even hard to decide whether this argues for
or against the liklihood that eternal recurrence obtains.

--
To publish research in social sciences you need statistics. To do
physical modeling you need advanced calculus including differential
equations.
-- Trawley Trash <tr...@invalid.invalid>, 22 Jan 2011 13:49 -0800

sarge

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Feb 19, 2011, 6:28:27 PM2/19/11
to

Not quite sure how this is a direct response to what I wrote - or
perhaps a critique? I am not sure. But I'll just respond without
being certain of how your question fits in context...

If it is an exact recurrance, we would be having the same thoughts we
had then. Some of these would be right, some wrong. But they would
be the same. It is possible we would be thinking 'this has happened
before' and be correct. Though one could certainly mount a critique
of this correct thought being knowledge. In fact knowledge itself
comes into question if old moments are simply recreated ad
infinitum. This sounds fairly deterministic and any conclusions and
not really drawn but simply are.

But I may have missed the point and run off on a tangent.

Immortalist

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Feb 19, 2011, 7:38:33 PM2/19/11
to

Likewise we might be some future experimental attempt recreate the
past.

Immortalist

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Feb 19, 2011, 7:51:03 PM2/19/11
to
On Feb 19, 3:25 pm, k...@kymhorsell.com wrote:
> In sci.skeptic Immortalist <reanimater_2...@yahoo.com> wrote:> In an infinite period of time, every possible

> > combination would at some time be attained
> > --Nietzsche
> > Eternal return (also known as "eternal recurrence") is a concept which
> > posits that the universe has been recurring, and will continue to
> > recur, in a self-similar form an infinite number of times across
> > infinite time and or infinite space. The concept initially inherent in
>
> ...
>
> These ideas have an affinity for some of the more recent meanderings
> in cosmology.
>
> One question that naturally arises is "where/when am I"?
>
> The usual answer is "probably in an average place/time". E.g. we ask
> "what kind of star is the Sun". The answer is "an average star about
> 1/2-way through its lifetime".
>
> But another answer has occured to me, no dount not original.
>
> "When am I?" in relation to the world. The "most likely" time
> to be alive is when there are the most humans. The implications
> of "most" may be unsettling to some -- i.e. at later times there
> are less.
>

Maybe any perception and memory of experiential time is just a
particular sequence of events that can happen at any time and produce
the identical experience?

bigfl...@gmail.com

unread,
Feb 19, 2011, 10:59:57 PM2/19/11
to

He was perfectly correct, and is why such realities are not common to
the group consciousness. To attempt to compare (as is the nature of
groupies) is horrifying.


For those who have developed such awareness, the joy and excitement of
the nature of the ongoing of ones life eliminates all the old "heavy
weights". "Now" can be realized for "what it is"...the mental
reference to eternity.

BOfL
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eternal_returnhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friedrich_Nietzsche

bigfl...@gmail.com

unread,
Feb 19, 2011, 11:05:36 PM2/19/11
to
On Feb 19, 3:07 pm, sarge <greasethew...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On 19 Feb, 23:58, Immortalist <reanimater_2...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > In an infinite period of time, every possible
> > combination would at some time be attained
> > --Nietzsche
>
> > Eternal return (also known as "eternal recurrence") is a concept which
> > posits that the universe has been recurring, and will continue to
> > recur, in a self-similar form an infinite number of times across
> > infinite time and or infinite space. The concept initially inherent in
> > Indian philosophy was later found in ancient Egypt, and was
> > subsequently taken up by the Pythagoreans and Stoics. With the decline
> > of antiquity and the spread of Christianity, the concept fell into
> > disuse in the western world, though Friedrich Nietzsche resurrected
> > it.
>
> > ...It is a purely physical concept, involving no supernatural
> > reincarnation, but the return of beings in the same bodies. Time is
> > viewed as being not linear but cyclical. ...the probability of a world
> > coming into existence exactly like our own is finite. If either time
> > or space are infinite then mathematics tells us that our existence
> > will recur an infinite number of times...
>
> > ...Nietzsche contemplates the idea as potentially "horrifying and
> > paralyzing", and says that its burden is the "heaviest weight"
> > imaginable...
>
> >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eternal_returnhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wi...

>
> Well, for most it would not be the same as reincarnation.  In
> reincarnation, in most ways this is conceived, something is retained
> from previous incarnations.   In eternal recurrence we simply have a
> recurrence of sameness.
>
> At various times some physicists have considered a form of eternal
> recurrence possible.

In terms of matter, that 'is' what happens. All the recent laws of
physics are adhered to.

Consciousness is a totally different 'matter' and is nothing to do
with matter energy time or space (although it does impact on those
four, as the q.m'ers have discovered, even though the link hasnt been
established, which is a matter of consciousness awareness...not
science)

BOfL

bigfl...@gmail.com

unread,
Feb 19, 2011, 11:07:55 PM2/19/11
to

Go and watch Groundhog Day. You may get your answers. (they ARE
there...and Sonny and Cher)

BOfL

bigfl...@gmail.com

unread,
Feb 19, 2011, 11:13:16 PM2/19/11
to
On Feb 19, 3:25 pm, k...@kymhorsell.com wrote:
> In sci.skeptic Immortalist <reanimater_2...@yahoo.com> wrote:> In an infinite period of time, every possible

Such is the limit of philosophy, which, like science, is involved in
searching, not finding, and why I do not consider Socrates,
Pythagoras, Rumi, etc etc as philosophers, but masters.


>
> --
> To publish research in social sciences you need statistics.  To do
> physical modeling you need advanced calculus including differential
> equations.

And to create objects you need matter, energy, time and space.

BOfL

bigfl...@gmail.com

unread,
Feb 19, 2011, 11:16:38 PM2/19/11
to

It is only when you have won the lottery a hundred times, does ones
consciousness move beyond monetary materialism.

Groundhod Day is a 'master class' on the subject.

BOfL

sarge

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Feb 19, 2011, 11:20:17 PM2/19/11
to

Not sure which of my assertins you are supporting.

> Consciousness is a totally different 'matter' and is nothing to do
> with matter energy time or space (although it does impact on those
> four, as the q.m'ers have discovered, even though the link hasnt been
> established, which is a matter of consciousness awareness...not
> science)

I don't think something that has nothing to do with something else
will impact something else. Or vice versa.


sarge

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Feb 19, 2011, 11:22:56 PM2/19/11
to

I loved Groundhog Day. That said I am not sure why monetary
materialism is the issue. Or even materialism. Or even moving
beyond.

Immanence is just fine. I think the reflection give the new agers by
those awaiting rapture is often missed.

bigfl...@gmail.com

unread,
Feb 19, 2011, 11:21:20 PM2/19/11
to

Thats what the mind does...continually. By the time the mind has
completed its thought of the future,the though becomes past. "Now" do
you get it ?

BOfL

bigfl...@gmail.com

unread,
Feb 19, 2011, 11:23:42 PM2/19/11
to
On Feb 19, 4:51 pm, Immortalist <reanimater_2...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Feb 19, 3:25 pm, k...@kymhorsell.com wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > In sci.skeptic Immortalist <reanimater_2...@yahoo.com> wrote:> In an infinite period of time, every possible
> > > combination would at some time be attained
> > > --Nietzsche
> > > Eternal return (also known as "eternal recurrence") is a concept which
> > > posits that the universe has been recurring, and will continue to
> > > recur, in a self-similar form an infinite number of times across
> > > infinite time and or infinite space. The concept initially inherent in
>
> > ...
>
> > These ideas have an affinity for some of the more recent meanderings
> > in cosmology.
>
> > One question that naturally arises is "where/when am I"?
>
> > The usual answer is "probably in an average place/time". E.g. we ask
> > "what kind of star is the Sun". The answer is "an average star about
> > 1/2-way through its lifetime".
>
> > But another answer has occured to me, no dount not original.
>
> > "When am I?" in relation to the world. The "most likely" time
> > to be alive is when there are the most humans. The implications
> > of "most" may be unsettling to some -- i.e. at later times there
> > are less.
>
> Maybe any perception and memory of experiential time is just a
> particular sequence of events that can happen at any time and produce
> the identical experience?
>
Which is why most cannot handle the realization of reincarnation
(transmigration of 'self' being more accurate).

BOfL

THE BORG

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Feb 19, 2011, 11:51:54 PM2/19/11
to
No.

Bubba

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Feb 20, 2011, 9:40:12 AM2/20/11
to

Nietzsche was right about one thing for sure, that if there is a God in
Heaven, then "God Is Dead" to the "human" race. The "human" race was
"left behind." The "human" race is damned in Hell.

So there is no going back or "eternal recurrence." What's done is done,
and that is what punishes the dead in the afterlife, hence the phrase
"What we do in life, echoes in eternity." If there is anything in the
Universe that "humans" have to be absolutely terrified of, it is that they
are punished in the afterlife for their prior evils -- and they are many.

That's what this life is, the afterlife. The next life will be the life
after this life, not the one before it. For that reason, Time could be
what "humans" dread the most, because Time is a prison from which there is
no permanent escape, but only the occasional furlough.

Time has the "human" race by the balls.

--
Bub


Immortalist

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Feb 20, 2011, 1:41:33 PM2/20/11
to
On Feb 19, 8:21 pm, "bigflet...@gmail.com" <bigflet...@gmail.com>
wrote:

What should be clear and obvious by now is that we cannot properly say
that the future or the past exists, or that there
are three times, past, present, and future. Perhaps we can say that
there are three tenses, but that they are the present of the past, the
present of the present, and the present of the future. This would
correspond, in some sense, with a triad I find in the soul and nowhere
else, where the past is present to memory, the present is present to
observation [contuitus], and the future is present to anticipation (T
11.26).

http://www.enotalone.com/article/5070.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Presentism_(philosophy_of_time)

Virgil

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Feb 20, 2011, 5:13:02 PM2/20/11
to
In article <7DOPQ2Y04059...@reece.net.au>, Bubba <Bub@ba>
wrote:


> Time has the "human" race by the balls.

Only in the sense that, like what has already happened to many other
species, humanity will eventually become extinct.
--
Creationism is code for "Here, we want you to believe this bullshit"

Humans have been successfully applying the principles of Evolution in
agriculture and animal husbandry for over 10,000 years now.

Immortalist

unread,
Feb 20, 2011, 5:23:12 PM2/20/11
to
On Feb 20, 2:13 pm, Virgil <vir...@ligriv.com> wrote:
> In article <7DOPQ2Y040594.9445833...@reece.net.au>, Bubba <Bub@ba>

> wrote:
>
> > Time has the "human" race by the balls.
>
> Only in the sense that, like what has already happened to many other
> species, humanity will eventually become extinct.

Will the possibility that we could exist become extinct?

Immortalist

unread,
Feb 20, 2011, 5:34:05 PM2/20/11
to
On Feb 19, 8:51 pm, "THE BORG" <b...@gone.com> wrote:
> No.

"So my teacher asks me, 'Dice, what's the difference between two
eighths and tree [sic] eighths?' And I say, 'that's right, Teach,
what's the ****IN' difference?"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2mHidubHeHY

Bubba

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Feb 20, 2011, 8:33:48 PM2/20/11
to
On Sun, 20 Feb 2011, Virgil <vir...@ligriv.com> wrote:
>In article <7DOPQ2Y04059...@reece.net.au>, Bubba <Bub@ba>
>wrote:
>
>> Time has the "human" race by the balls.
>
>Only in the sense that, like what has already happened to many other
>species, humanity will eventually become extinct.

Excellent point. Not all species evolve, but all species go extinct.


>--
>Creationism is code for "Here, we want you to believe this bullshit"
>

Wait a minute, I thought that was Christianity's primary function? The
word "bible" does sound a lot like "babble." The "king james holy babble."

>Humans have been successfully applying the principles of Evolution in
> agriculture and animal husbandry for over 10,000 years now.

Then about two thousand years ago, some of the most crafty "humans" started
cultivating zombies. Constantine turned the zombie-growing business into a
wholesale bonanza, with millions of zombie specimens under his command.

--
Bub


big john whine

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Feb 20, 2011, 10:40:40 PM2/20/11
to
On Feb 20, 8:40 am, Bubba <Bub@ba> wrote:
> Bub- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

if that and that BS about 'Ubermensch'
is all that 'Neetchie' said, then he was a
Pretentious Nazi F*ck.

Richo

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Feb 20, 2011, 11:14:22 PM2/20/11
to
On Feb 20, 9:58 am, Immortalist <reanimater_2...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> In an infinite period of time, every possible
> combination would at some time be attained
> --Nietzsche
>
> Eternal return (also known as "eternal recurrence") is a concept which
> posits that the universe has been recurring, and will continue to
> recur, in a self-similar form an infinite number of times across
> infinite time and or infinite space. The concept initially inherent in
> Indian philosophy was later found in ancient Egypt, and was
> subsequently taken up by the Pythagoreans and Stoics. With the decline
> of antiquity and the spread of Christianity, the concept fell into
> disuse in the western world, though Friedrich Nietzsche resurrected
> it.
>
> ...It is a purely physical concept, involving no supernatural
> reincarnation, but the return of beings in the same bodies. Time is
> viewed as being not linear but cyclical. ...the probability of a world
> coming into existence exactly like our own is finite. If either time
> or space are infinite then mathematics tells us that our existence
> will recur an infinite number of times...
>

This would not be the same idea as reincarnation.
In reincarnation some "essence of self" is transfered from one
physical existence to the next - in the everything happens again
scenario its seperate "copies" of you existing - and never knowing or
having anything to do with the other version of its self.

This line of thinking has a lot in common with the "star trek
transporter" conundrum.
If you are dimantled into you component particles beamed down to some
planet and reassembled - is it really *you* or did you cease to exist
and now there is a new and fiffernt being at the other end?

Thinking about these questions is a good way of confronting the idea
of self and the soul.

Mark.

Bret Cahill

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Feb 20, 2011, 11:37:19 PM2/20/11
to
> In an infinite period of time, every possible
> combination would at some time be attained
> --Nietzsche
>
> Eternal return (also known as "eternal recurrence") is a concept which
> posits that the universe has been recurring, and will continue to
> recur, in a self-similar form an infinite number of times across
> infinite time and or infinite space. The concept initially inherent in
> Indian philosophy was later found in ancient Egypt, and was
> subsequently taken up by the Pythagoreans and Stoics. With the decline
> of antiquity and the spread of Christianity, the concept fell into
> disuse in the western world, though Friedrich Nietzsche resurrected
> it.
>
> ...It is a purely physical concept, involving no supernatural
> reincarnation, but the return of beings in the same bodies. Time is
> viewed as being not linear but cyclical. ...the probability of a world
> coming into existence exactly like our own is finite. If either time
> or space are infinite then mathematics tells us that our existence
> will recur an infinite number of times...
>
> ...Nietzsche contemplates the idea as potentially "horrifying and
> paralyzing", and says that its burden is the "heaviest weight"
> imaginable...
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eternal_returnhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friedrich_Nietzsche

Actually it's the same as relativity.

Nietzsche & Einstein were both from S. Germany.


Bret Cahill

bigfl...@gmail.com

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Feb 21, 2011, 12:24:29 AM2/21/11
to

The mind can only relate to time, and yet time doesnt exist.

Ask most people what they understand by the term 'eternity', and they
will reply 'a very long time'.

It's all about consciousness. Here and now.

BOfL

Immortalist

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Feb 24, 2011, 8:13:07 PM2/24/11
to
On Feb 20, 9:24 pm, "bigflet...@gmail.com" <bigflet...@gmail.com>
> >http://www.enotalone.com/article/5070.htmlhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wik...)

>
> The mind can only relate to time, and yet time doesnt exist.
>

Doesn't it take time for objects to persist through changes to their
internal structure? Or are you just saying that the subjective
representation of change doesn't exist in the changing world?

All known objects are processes. Consciousness is as much an object as
other processes that re-present a present moment through changing
stuff, everything is constantly changing and opposite things are
identical, so that everything is and is not at the same time. In other
words, Universal Flux and the Identity of Opposites may entail a
denial of the Law of Non-Contradiction, since all things go and
nothing stays, and comparing existents to the flow of a river which
you cannot step twice into. On those stepping into rivers staying the
same other and other waters flow. There is an antithesis between
'same' and 'other,' different waters flow in rivers staying the same,
though the waters are always changing, the rivers stay the same.
Indeed, it must be precisely because the waters are always changing
that there are rivers at all, rather than lakes or ponds. The message
is that rivers can stay the same over time even though, or indeed
because, the waters change. The point, then, is not that everything is
changing, but that the fact that some things change makes possible the
continued existence of other things. Perhaps more generally, the
change in elements or constituents supports the constancy of higher-
level structures.

http://www.utm.edu/research/iep/h/heraclit.htm

In conclusion to claim that time doesn't exist is similar to claiming
that things don't change.

sen...@gmail.com

unread,
Jun 17, 2014, 8:51:37 AM6/17/14
to
Would we know that we have recurred? It appears that this knowledge is mostly repressed because we prefer the illusion that everything is "new" and "will get better". If we become more receptive to the idea of Eternal Recurrence we may experience more meaningful dreams and find that we have a "sense" of how things are going to turn out in the future, either relatively good or not-so-good.

http://www.eternalrecurrence.info/
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