info
Google Groups no longer supports new Usenet posts or subscriptions. Historical content remains viewable.
Dismiss
EXCLUSIVE: Podesta Was Board Member Of Firms Linked To Russian Investors
0 views
Skip to first unread message
Leroy N. Soetoro
Apr 13, 2017, 6:16:35 PM4/13/17
to
http://dailycaller.com/2017/03/21/exclusive-podesta-was-board-member-of-
firm-linked-to-russian-investors/?google_editors_picks=true
Rep. Louie Gohmert, an outspoken House Republican from Texas, is calling
for a congressional investigation of John Podesta’s role with Rusnano, a
state-run company founded by Russian President Vladimir Putin, The Daily
Caller News Foundation’s Investigative Group has learned.
Podesta — Hillary Clinton’s 2016 presidential campaign chairman and former
President Bill Clinton’s White House chief of staff — first made contact
with the Russian firm in 2011, when he joined the boards and executive
committees of three related entities: Boston-based Joule Unlimited;
Rotterdam-based Joule Global Holdings; Joule Global Stichting, the
company’s controlling interest. All are high-tech renewable energy
enterprises.
Three months after Podesta’s arrival, Joule Unlimited accepted a 1 billion
ruble investment from Rusnano, amounting to $35 million in U.S. currency.
The firm also awarded a Joule board seat in February 2012 to Anatoly
Chubais, Rusnano’s CEO, who has been depicted as a corrupt figure.
Podesta has attempted to downplay his relationship with Joule and Rusnano,
but it could come to haunt him.
One potential legal problem for him relates to the time he joined former
President Barack Obama’s White House staff in 2014 as a senior counselor
and failed to reveal his 2011 Joule stock vesting agreement in his
government financial disclosure form.
Further, he failed to disclose 75,000 common shares of Joule stock he
received, as disclosed in a WikiLeaks email.
After Podesta began working at the White House, his lawyer indicated in a
Jan. 6, 2014 email that he had not yet finished the legal work on the
private transfer of the stock to a family-owned entity called Leonido
Holdings, LLC.
Gohmert’s call for an examination of Podesta’s Russian ties comes as
Washington is in the grips of a set of allegations about Russian ties to
President Donald Trump and his aides, as well as charges of Russian
influence during the presidential election.
Gohmert is troubled about the Podesta-Russia connection, telling TheDCNF,
“this certainly needs to be reviewed to see if there really is something
nefarious going on with these activities.” Gohmert sits on the House
Judiciary Committee and is vice chair of its subcommittee on crime,
terrorism and homeland security.
The Podesta-Russia connection also could rekindle a new round of questions
about Clinton relationships with foreign figures — in this case, Chubais.
Chubais, Russia’s deputy prime minister in the 1990s, owed his personal
fortunes to Bill Clinton, who embraced him as a “reformer” in former
President Boris Yeltsin’s government. Clinton’s ally instead created a new
generation of tycoons who today rule Russia.
Podesta’s role at Joule was largely unknown until last year when the
nonprofit Government Accountability Institute (GAI) published a highly-
detailed report on Russian ties to Podesta and the Clintons.
An ongoing federal lawsuit, Neas Ltd, v. Rusnano, which is now before the
U.S. District Court for Northern California, suggests Podesta and others
at Joule may have unwittingly assisted Rusnano in a scheme hatched to move
billions of weak rubles into valuable U.S. dollars by parking them as
“investments” in high-tech companies in Boston and in Silicon Valley.
A deposition by Ilya Ponomarev, an architect of Russia’s innovation
enterprises and the former chairman of innovations subcommittee in the
Russian Parliament, shed light on Rusnano’s plans in the United States. He
says its primary objective “was the transformation of Rusnano from a
state-owned corporation to an enterprise suitable for operations in the
United States.” Ponomarev now lives in exile in the United States.
Shortly after then-Secretary of State Hillary Clinton pursued her “reset”
with Russia, state-owned Russian companies began targeting American
companies in Boston and Silicon Valley as investment opportunities.
In May 2010, under Hillary Clinton’s leadership, the Department of State
facilitated a visit by 22 American hi-tech and venture capital firms to
Skolkovo, Russia’s version of Silicon Valley, according to GAI.
Rusnano appears to have been a leader in the Russian investment move into
the United States. Chubais created a Rusnano “investment fund” and set up
a so-called “Russian Innovation Center” in tony Silicon Valley, according
to the Neas lawsuit.
The company opened shop in Palo Alto called DJF Venture Fund, a venture
capital fund advised the Russian company.
Rusnano targeted Boston where Joule’s U.S. operations were centered. In
2010, Chubais joined a Rusnano “road show” and gave a presentation at MIT.
A Rusnano managing director also addressed the Harvard Faculty Club.
An Oct. 5, 2011 Rusnano PowerPoint presentation by Dmitry Akhanov, Rusnano
USA president, promised American businessmen “cheap money.” Rusnano
dangled $4.6 billion in government contributions and $5.7 billion in state
guarantees.
Lucia Ziobro, the special agent in charge at the FBI’s Boston field
office, issued an “extraordinary warning” to Boston-area high-tech firms
in 2014 about Russian investors to startups like Joule.
“The FBI believes the true motives of the Russian partners, who are often
funded by their government, is to gain access to classified, sensitive and
emerging technology from the companies,” she wrote in a Boston Globe op-
ed.
Podesta’s emails also show how in 2015 Podesta continued to help Rusnano
even though he had left Joule’s boards. Podesta’s lawyer told him he did
legal work for the Rosnano president to get on the Joule board.
Rusnano was a special company formed by decree at the direction of Putin.
A small group of Putin cronies called the “Kooperative Ozero” masterminded
the takeover of big swaths of the Russian economy.
The Ozero group are eight men — including Putin — who owned expensive
dachas on a lake outside of St. Petersburg. They now run state-owned
banks, the news media and oil and gas companies.
“This group Ozero turned to occupy all the ruling positions in the country
after Putin came to power,” Ponomarev told TheDCNF. He said the group
represented “former KGB, organized crime and their associates.”
David Satter, a senior fellow at the Hudson Institute and former Wall
Street Journal reporter who covered Russia, called Chubais as “a very
shady figure.”
“Chubais was in charge of the whole privatization process during the
1990’s under Yeltsin which was notoriously corrupt,” he told TheDCNF.
“Billions of dollars in property changed hands under conditions that were
unethical, illegal, criminal. He was in charge of that whole process,” he
said.
The DCNF contacted but received no replies from Joule Unlimited, Rusnano
USA or Podesta.
Tags: Barack Obama, Investigative Group, John Podesta, Joule Unlimited,
Louie Gohmert, President Bill Clinton, Secretary of State Hillary Clinton,
Waste and Fraud
--
Donald J. Trump, 304 electoral votes to 227, defeated compulsive liar in
denial Hillary Rodham Clinton on December 19th, 2016. The clown car
parade of the democrat party has run out of gas.
Congratulations President Trump. Thank you for ending the disaster of the
Obama presidency.
Under Barack Obama's leadership, the United States of America became the
The World According To Garp.
ObamaCare is a total 100% failure and no lie that can be put forth by its
supporters can dispute that.
Obama jobs, the result of ObamaCare. 12-15 working hours a week at minimum
wage, no benefits and the primary revenue stream for ObamaCare. It can't
be funded with money people don't have, yet liberals lie about how great
it is.
Obama increased total debt from $10 trillion to $20 trillion in the eight
years he was in office, and sold out heterosexuals for Hollywood queer
liberal democrat donors.
firm-linked-to-russian-investors/?google_editors_picks=true
Rep. Louie Gohmert, an outspoken House Republican from Texas, is calling
for a congressional investigation of John Podesta’s role with Rusnano, a
state-run company founded by Russian President Vladimir Putin, The Daily
Caller News Foundation’s Investigative Group has learned.
Podesta — Hillary Clinton’s 2016 presidential campaign chairman and former
President Bill Clinton’s White House chief of staff — first made contact
with the Russian firm in 2011, when he joined the boards and executive
committees of three related entities: Boston-based Joule Unlimited;
Rotterdam-based Joule Global Holdings; Joule Global Stichting, the
company’s controlling interest. All are high-tech renewable energy
enterprises.
Three months after Podesta’s arrival, Joule Unlimited accepted a 1 billion
ruble investment from Rusnano, amounting to $35 million in U.S. currency.
The firm also awarded a Joule board seat in February 2012 to Anatoly
Chubais, Rusnano’s CEO, who has been depicted as a corrupt figure.
Podesta has attempted to downplay his relationship with Joule and Rusnano,
but it could come to haunt him.
One potential legal problem for him relates to the time he joined former
President Barack Obama’s White House staff in 2014 as a senior counselor
and failed to reveal his 2011 Joule stock vesting agreement in his
government financial disclosure form.
Further, he failed to disclose 75,000 common shares of Joule stock he
received, as disclosed in a WikiLeaks email.
After Podesta began working at the White House, his lawyer indicated in a
Jan. 6, 2014 email that he had not yet finished the legal work on the
private transfer of the stock to a family-owned entity called Leonido
Holdings, LLC.
Gohmert’s call for an examination of Podesta’s Russian ties comes as
Washington is in the grips of a set of allegations about Russian ties to
President Donald Trump and his aides, as well as charges of Russian
influence during the presidential election.
Gohmert is troubled about the Podesta-Russia connection, telling TheDCNF,
“this certainly needs to be reviewed to see if there really is something
nefarious going on with these activities.” Gohmert sits on the House
Judiciary Committee and is vice chair of its subcommittee on crime,
terrorism and homeland security.
The Podesta-Russia connection also could rekindle a new round of questions
about Clinton relationships with foreign figures — in this case, Chubais.
Chubais, Russia’s deputy prime minister in the 1990s, owed his personal
fortunes to Bill Clinton, who embraced him as a “reformer” in former
President Boris Yeltsin’s government. Clinton’s ally instead created a new
generation of tycoons who today rule Russia.
Podesta’s role at Joule was largely unknown until last year when the
nonprofit Government Accountability Institute (GAI) published a highly-
detailed report on Russian ties to Podesta and the Clintons.
An ongoing federal lawsuit, Neas Ltd, v. Rusnano, which is now before the
U.S. District Court for Northern California, suggests Podesta and others
at Joule may have unwittingly assisted Rusnano in a scheme hatched to move
billions of weak rubles into valuable U.S. dollars by parking them as
“investments” in high-tech companies in Boston and in Silicon Valley.
A deposition by Ilya Ponomarev, an architect of Russia’s innovation
enterprises and the former chairman of innovations subcommittee in the
Russian Parliament, shed light on Rusnano’s plans in the United States. He
says its primary objective “was the transformation of Rusnano from a
state-owned corporation to an enterprise suitable for operations in the
United States.” Ponomarev now lives in exile in the United States.
Shortly after then-Secretary of State Hillary Clinton pursued her “reset”
with Russia, state-owned Russian companies began targeting American
companies in Boston and Silicon Valley as investment opportunities.
In May 2010, under Hillary Clinton’s leadership, the Department of State
facilitated a visit by 22 American hi-tech and venture capital firms to
Skolkovo, Russia’s version of Silicon Valley, according to GAI.
Rusnano appears to have been a leader in the Russian investment move into
the United States. Chubais created a Rusnano “investment fund” and set up
a so-called “Russian Innovation Center” in tony Silicon Valley, according
to the Neas lawsuit.
The company opened shop in Palo Alto called DJF Venture Fund, a venture
capital fund advised the Russian company.
Rusnano targeted Boston where Joule’s U.S. operations were centered. In
2010, Chubais joined a Rusnano “road show” and gave a presentation at MIT.
A Rusnano managing director also addressed the Harvard Faculty Club.
An Oct. 5, 2011 Rusnano PowerPoint presentation by Dmitry Akhanov, Rusnano
USA president, promised American businessmen “cheap money.” Rusnano
dangled $4.6 billion in government contributions and $5.7 billion in state
guarantees.
Lucia Ziobro, the special agent in charge at the FBI’s Boston field
office, issued an “extraordinary warning” to Boston-area high-tech firms
in 2014 about Russian investors to startups like Joule.
“The FBI believes the true motives of the Russian partners, who are often
funded by their government, is to gain access to classified, sensitive and
emerging technology from the companies,” she wrote in a Boston Globe op-
ed.
Podesta’s emails also show how in 2015 Podesta continued to help Rusnano
even though he had left Joule’s boards. Podesta’s lawyer told him he did
legal work for the Rosnano president to get on the Joule board.
Rusnano was a special company formed by decree at the direction of Putin.
A small group of Putin cronies called the “Kooperative Ozero” masterminded
the takeover of big swaths of the Russian economy.
The Ozero group are eight men — including Putin — who owned expensive
dachas on a lake outside of St. Petersburg. They now run state-owned
banks, the news media and oil and gas companies.
“This group Ozero turned to occupy all the ruling positions in the country
after Putin came to power,” Ponomarev told TheDCNF. He said the group
represented “former KGB, organized crime and their associates.”
David Satter, a senior fellow at the Hudson Institute and former Wall
Street Journal reporter who covered Russia, called Chubais as “a very
shady figure.”
“Chubais was in charge of the whole privatization process during the
1990’s under Yeltsin which was notoriously corrupt,” he told TheDCNF.
“Billions of dollars in property changed hands under conditions that were
unethical, illegal, criminal. He was in charge of that whole process,” he
said.
The DCNF contacted but received no replies from Joule Unlimited, Rusnano
USA or Podesta.
Tags: Barack Obama, Investigative Group, John Podesta, Joule Unlimited,
Louie Gohmert, President Bill Clinton, Secretary of State Hillary Clinton,
Waste and Fraud
--
Donald J. Trump, 304 electoral votes to 227, defeated compulsive liar in
denial Hillary Rodham Clinton on December 19th, 2016. The clown car
parade of the democrat party has run out of gas.
Congratulations President Trump. Thank you for ending the disaster of the
Obama presidency.
Under Barack Obama's leadership, the United States of America became the
The World According To Garp.
ObamaCare is a total 100% failure and no lie that can be put forth by its
supporters can dispute that.
Obama jobs, the result of ObamaCare. 12-15 working hours a week at minimum
wage, no benefits and the primary revenue stream for ObamaCare. It can't
be funded with money people don't have, yet liberals lie about how great
it is.
Obama increased total debt from $10 trillion to $20 trillion in the eight
years he was in office, and sold out heterosexuals for Hollywood queer
liberal democrat donors.
Mr. B1ack
Apr 13, 2017, 9:49:31 PM4/13/17
to
If you're out in the world doing business then you're
gonna wind up in lots of board rooms ... some of
them Russian. It's not as if you have to fly to Mars
to find any Russians.
I'd be more interested in any Chinese contacts. The
Chinese did NOT want Trump to become president
and had the money, contacts and hacking skills to
work against him.
But then if you're out in the world doing business then
you're gonna wind up in lots of board rooms ... some
of them Chinese ................
But that'd be reasonable - this is POLITICS. So, as
long as the lefties keep up about Reds under the
beds, keep digging into THEIR business for anything
that even vaguely looks "suspicious". No rest for
the witch hunter ya know .........
gonna wind up in lots of board rooms ... some of
them Russian. It's not as if you have to fly to Mars
to find any Russians.
I'd be more interested in any Chinese contacts. The
Chinese did NOT want Trump to become president
and had the money, contacts and hacking skills to
work against him.
But then if you're out in the world doing business then
you're gonna wind up in lots of board rooms ... some
of them Chinese ................
But that'd be reasonable - this is POLITICS. So, as
long as the lefties keep up about Reds under the
beds, keep digging into THEIR business for anything
that even vaguely looks "suspicious". No rest for
the witch hunter ya know .........
Mr. B1ack
Apr 14, 2017, 2:05:17 PM4/14/17
to
On Fri, 14 Apr 2017 15:20:01 +0100, PIBB <inv...@nospam.com> wrote:
>On that argument, no one can ever be guilty of accepting bribes from
>a foreign government because, you would argue, that's how business is
>done. Pah!
Well ... actually ........ that IS "how business is done",
commonly, in a lot of the world anyway.
I do not want US politicians taking corporate bribes
however. China and Japan and Saudi can do it their
way, we should do things our way.
Hmm ... what's it mean if you take bribes from Russia
AND China AND Japan AND Saudi AND Dubai AND ....
certainly not "favoritism" - but 'greed' fer sure :-)
There has been corruption since there was government.
The earliest kings demanded "tribute" - basically meaning
"protection money" - from surrounding weaker kingdoms.
There are accounts of lower-ranking pols/ministers dipping
their beaks too.
This is not new and seems to be pretty ubiquitous across
time and space, thus likely part of our brains hard-wiring.
Such practices weren't even considered to be "corruption"
very often until the advent of modern "democracies" - just
how the movers and shakers did business.
Now you can change or re-brand the political system ... but
that doesn't change PEOPLE. This is why corruption is a
feature of 'democracies' too. I don't think it CAN be eliminated.
However it can be "managed" ... kept at low enough levels
so that it doesn't seriously disrupt the System.
Frankly, pay-2-play pols like Hillary should be thrown in
the dungeon - but people like her generally get far lesser
punishments. Helps when ones peers are ALSO takin'
"donations" on the side as well dontchaknow :-)
>a foreign government because, you would argue, that's how business is
>done. Pah!
Well ... actually ........ that IS "how business is done",
commonly, in a lot of the world anyway.
I do not want US politicians taking corporate bribes
however. China and Japan and Saudi can do it their
way, we should do things our way.
Hmm ... what's it mean if you take bribes from Russia
AND China AND Japan AND Saudi AND Dubai AND ....
certainly not "favoritism" - but 'greed' fer sure :-)
There has been corruption since there was government.
The earliest kings demanded "tribute" - basically meaning
"protection money" - from surrounding weaker kingdoms.
There are accounts of lower-ranking pols/ministers dipping
their beaks too.
This is not new and seems to be pretty ubiquitous across
time and space, thus likely part of our brains hard-wiring.
Such practices weren't even considered to be "corruption"
very often until the advent of modern "democracies" - just
how the movers and shakers did business.
Now you can change or re-brand the political system ... but
that doesn't change PEOPLE. This is why corruption is a
feature of 'democracies' too. I don't think it CAN be eliminated.
However it can be "managed" ... kept at low enough levels
so that it doesn't seriously disrupt the System.
Frankly, pay-2-play pols like Hillary should be thrown in
the dungeon - but people like her generally get far lesser
punishments. Helps when ones peers are ALSO takin'
"donations" on the side as well dontchaknow :-)
Mr. B1ack
Apr 14, 2017, 9:53:57 PM4/14/17
to
On Fri, 14 Apr 2017 20:27:52 +0100, PIBB <inv...@nospam.com> wrote:
>That is how *some* busines is done is *some* parts of the world.
>It is not a good argument to defend whatever Trump is doing.
>countries but not in the U.S. where there are penalties for
>palying along with local corrupt custom.
>brought new ideals which may not have applied in the times of
>Ghengis Khan or Emperor Caligula.
>acceptable. You can also acquire the understanding it is not
>acceptable. Similarly with nepotism (think Trump once again).
not fromTOO close or someone will get ideas about you :-)
Even the small ones understand about abusing any power
they may have. Power over something means they can
make others do what they want in order to get "something".
Designate some kid as playground monitor and watch the
favoritism and bribery start.
Our species is wired for a heirarchical social authority
system. We intrinsically know what that means, know
how to navigate it, know how to exploit it so we can
edge up the ladder.
Mostly this has been "how it's done" and nobody thought
much about it. However "democracies" are a new and
unique kind of political organization and are SUPPOSED
to be very egalitarian ... which means that even those in
high authority are supposed to not show favoritism -
especially for brown bags full of cash. "Democracies"
can't really work if that's the norm - it becomes only
a name, false labeling. Mexico, for example ....
BUT, as I said, just because we can invent the idea of
"democracy" doesn't mean we've totally rewritten our
DNA and become some new kind of creature. All the
wiring for the old way is still within us and isn't gonna
go away. This is highly inconvenient for 'democracies'.
It's probably a good thing for the longer-term survival
of the species however .... the rules of the heirarchical
social structure weren't conserved over the ages for
no good Darwininan reasons. Todays societies will
eventually collapse and it'll be a rumble in the jungle
once again. Taking care of #1 by exploiting the rest
may be the only thing that keeps you alive. Altruism
and cooperation may be a bit over-rated in that respect.
Generally means *everybody* dies.
>It is not a good argument to defend whatever Trump is doing.
>
>> I do not want US politicians taking corporate bribes
>> however. China and Japan and Saudi can do it their
>> way, we should do things our way.
>>
>> Hmm ... what's it mean if you take bribes from Russia
>> AND China AND Japan AND Saudi AND Dubai AND ....
>> certainly not "favoritism" - but 'greed' fer sure :-)
>>
>> There has been corruption since there was government.
>> The earliest kings demanded "tribute" - basically meaning
>> "protection money" - from surrounding weaker kingdoms.
>> There are accounts of lower-ranking pols/ministers dipping
>> their beaks too.
>
>Bakseesh and whatever other names may be normal in some corrupt
>> I do not want US politicians taking corporate bribes
>> however. China and Japan and Saudi can do it their
>> way, we should do things our way.
>>
>> Hmm ... what's it mean if you take bribes from Russia
>> AND China AND Japan AND Saudi AND Dubai AND ....
>> certainly not "favoritism" - but 'greed' fer sure :-)
>>
>> There has been corruption since there was government.
>> The earliest kings demanded "tribute" - basically meaning
>> "protection money" - from surrounding weaker kingdoms.
>> There are accounts of lower-ranking pols/ministers dipping
>> their beaks too.
>
>countries but not in the U.S. where there are penalties for
>palying along with local corrupt custom.
>
>> This is not new and seems to be pretty ubiquitous across
>> time and space, thus likely part of our brains hard-wiring.
>> Such practices weren't even considered to be "corruption"
>> very often until the advent of modern "democracies" - just
>> how the movers and shakers did business.
>
>You may be right to say that. However modern democracy has
>> This is not new and seems to be pretty ubiquitous across
>> time and space, thus likely part of our brains hard-wiring.
>> Such practices weren't even considered to be "corruption"
>> very often until the advent of modern "democracies" - just
>> how the movers and shakers did business.
>
>brought new ideals which may not have applied in the times of
>Ghengis Khan or Emperor Caligula.
>
>> Now you can change or re-brand the political system ... but
>> that doesn't change PEOPLE. This is why corruption is a
>> feature of 'democracies' too. I don't think it CAN be
>> eliminated. However it can be "managed" ... kept at low
>> enough levels so that it doesn't seriously disrupt the
>> System.
>
>One is not born corrupt. It is acquired by understanding it is
>> Now you can change or re-brand the political system ... but
>> that doesn't change PEOPLE. This is why corruption is a
>> feature of 'democracies' too. I don't think it CAN be
>> eliminated. However it can be "managed" ... kept at low
>> enough levels so that it doesn't seriously disrupt the
>> System.
>
>acceptable. You can also acquire the understanding it is not
>acceptable. Similarly with nepotism (think Trump once again).
>
>> Frankly, pay-2-play pols like Hillary should be thrown in
>> the dungeon - but people like her generally get far lesser
>> punishments. Helps when ones peers are ALSO takin'
>> "donations" on the side as well dontchaknow :-)
I suggest you watch the kiddies on the playground ... well,
>> Frankly, pay-2-play pols like Hillary should be thrown in
>> the dungeon - but people like her generally get far lesser
>> punishments. Helps when ones peers are ALSO takin'
>> "donations" on the side as well dontchaknow :-)
not fromTOO close or someone will get ideas about you :-)
Even the small ones understand about abusing any power
they may have. Power over something means they can
make others do what they want in order to get "something".
Designate some kid as playground monitor and watch the
favoritism and bribery start.
Our species is wired for a heirarchical social authority
system. We intrinsically know what that means, know
how to navigate it, know how to exploit it so we can
edge up the ladder.
Mostly this has been "how it's done" and nobody thought
much about it. However "democracies" are a new and
unique kind of political organization and are SUPPOSED
to be very egalitarian ... which means that even those in
high authority are supposed to not show favoritism -
especially for brown bags full of cash. "Democracies"
can't really work if that's the norm - it becomes only
a name, false labeling. Mexico, for example ....
BUT, as I said, just because we can invent the idea of
"democracy" doesn't mean we've totally rewritten our
DNA and become some new kind of creature. All the
wiring for the old way is still within us and isn't gonna
go away. This is highly inconvenient for 'democracies'.
It's probably a good thing for the longer-term survival
of the species however .... the rules of the heirarchical
social structure weren't conserved over the ages for
no good Darwininan reasons. Todays societies will
eventually collapse and it'll be a rumble in the jungle
once again. Taking care of #1 by exploiting the rest
may be the only thing that keeps you alive. Altruism
and cooperation may be a bit over-rated in that respect.
Generally means *everybody* dies.
Mr. B1ack
Apr 16, 2017, 3:57:27 PM4/16/17
to
On Sat, 15 Apr 2017 15:26:18 +0100, PIBB <inv...@nospam.com> wrote:
>Stealing is perhaps a useful survival behavior But when ancient
>peoples grouped together and formed societies they devised adverse
>consquences for this behavior because there was a greater overall
>good if it did not take place.
Oh ... but it's PERFECTLY OK to steal from
"those OTHER people" :-) Let's go a-viking !
>So it is with corruption.
Corruption within is only "corruption" under certain
conditions - which I alluded to above. On the whole,
pay-2-play has been well tolerated, normal business,
even in the european sphere UNTIL the advent of
"democracies". The only restriction was that the
aristocrat above you expected HIS cut ... and you
weren't allowed to put that in your pocket.
So what would we call pre-democratic governments,
"kleptocracies" ? I've heard that one before. There's
yer regular oppressive tax AND that other de-facto
tax ... the bribes you've gotta pay to get State
authorities to do something for you (or not do
something TO you).
Gene Roddenberry understood it when he invented
his "Ferengi" aliens.
Hmm ... would the ObamaCare fine for not
signing up be an example of the "not do
something TO you" principle ? :-)
>Donald Trump has used corruption to his advantage but only because
>he managed to evade the consequences.
I don't think he's quite as "corrupt" as you think.
Mostly he's used the existing legal/tax system
to his advantage. If you can afford top-notch
accountants and lawyers they can really do a
good job of that.
He's also made his "campaign donations" and
such ... but then all yer lefty biz/orgs do the same
so you'd better not complain.
>However the majority of
>non-corrupt citizens must pay for corruption through dire
>inefficincies and such like.
As I said, you can invent "democracy" but we're
still just people and the kleptocracy and bow to
the lion king are still writ strongly in our DNA. You
can invent Islam and fundy Xianity yet everybody's
still sneakin' around, getting wasted and coveting
each others wives & daughters ( & sons). One
of the biggest jokes of the century was when Iran's
Ahmadimejad declared that there were "no
homosexuals in Iran".
There's a more general principle here ... I'll
write on that in some seperate thread.
In any case, corruption IS bad for "democracies".
We won't get rid of it - indeed since the most
corrupted are also the ones who write the rules
they'll always leave plenty of back-doors. Even
McCain didn't push through his campaign-funding
rules package until he himself had found ways to
get around it.
So ... "democracies" simply must *control* the
level and scope of corruption - keep it from rising
to dangerous levels. The USA does ok in that
respect ... plenty of other 'democracies' in the
world don't. I mentioned Mexico because one
of the major complaints I hear when talking to
Mexican ex-pats is that the country has everything
it needs for greatness - but the vestiges of the
old patron/peon system and CORRUPTION mean
it cannot really achieve 1st-world status.
>peoples grouped together and formed societies they devised adverse
>consquences for this behavior because there was a greater overall
>good if it did not take place.
Oh ... but it's PERFECTLY OK to steal from
"those OTHER people" :-) Let's go a-viking !
>So it is with corruption.
Corruption within is only "corruption" under certain
conditions - which I alluded to above. On the whole,
pay-2-play has been well tolerated, normal business,
even in the european sphere UNTIL the advent of
"democracies". The only restriction was that the
aristocrat above you expected HIS cut ... and you
weren't allowed to put that in your pocket.
So what would we call pre-democratic governments,
"kleptocracies" ? I've heard that one before. There's
yer regular oppressive tax AND that other de-facto
tax ... the bribes you've gotta pay to get State
authorities to do something for you (or not do
something TO you).
Gene Roddenberry understood it when he invented
his "Ferengi" aliens.
Hmm ... would the ObamaCare fine for not
signing up be an example of the "not do
something TO you" principle ? :-)
>Donald Trump has used corruption to his advantage but only because
>he managed to evade the consequences.
I don't think he's quite as "corrupt" as you think.
Mostly he's used the existing legal/tax system
to his advantage. If you can afford top-notch
accountants and lawyers they can really do a
good job of that.
He's also made his "campaign donations" and
such ... but then all yer lefty biz/orgs do the same
so you'd better not complain.
>However the majority of
>non-corrupt citizens must pay for corruption through dire
>inefficincies and such like.
As I said, you can invent "democracy" but we're
still just people and the kleptocracy and bow to
the lion king are still writ strongly in our DNA. You
can invent Islam and fundy Xianity yet everybody's
still sneakin' around, getting wasted and coveting
each others wives & daughters ( & sons). One
of the biggest jokes of the century was when Iran's
Ahmadimejad declared that there were "no
homosexuals in Iran".
There's a more general principle here ... I'll
write on that in some seperate thread.
In any case, corruption IS bad for "democracies".
We won't get rid of it - indeed since the most
corrupted are also the ones who write the rules
they'll always leave plenty of back-doors. Even
McCain didn't push through his campaign-funding
rules package until he himself had found ways to
get around it.
So ... "democracies" simply must *control* the
level and scope of corruption - keep it from rising
to dangerous levels. The USA does ok in that
respect ... plenty of other 'democracies' in the
world don't. I mentioned Mexico because one
of the major complaints I hear when talking to
Mexican ex-pats is that the country has everything
it needs for greatness - but the vestiges of the
old patron/peon system and CORRUPTION mean
it cannot really achieve 1st-world status.
Mr. B1ack
Apr 16, 2017, 10:40:15 PM4/16/17
to
On Sun, 16 Apr 2017 22:03:40 +0100, PIBB <inv...@nospam.com> wrote:
>Lots of good points there. Have to agree with most of what you
>wrote - with two exceptions.
>
>Exception (1) is intolerance of corruption by "democracies". Good
>that you used quotation marks because democracy itself is not what
>causes such intolerance but there does seem to be some
>correlation.
I tried to allude to the issue earlier when I said that
that 'democracies' (and I quote it because there are
so many variants) are intended to be much more
egalitarian than competing systems - ie the People
and those comprising the State are supposed to
be morally/legally equal. Most species of corruption
are anti-egalitarian ... give advantage to those in
control which the regular Joes do not or can not
share. Corruption is government/governors for
THEMSELVES ahead of the Peoples interests.
>Exception (2) is Trump and corruption. Whether or not he used
>clever lawyers who exploited loopholes, Trump like most successful
>businesmen have had to bend the rules to breaking point.
So long as it's ultimately legal - or at least gets a pass -
then it's not corruption per-se ... simply "using the system".
Lots of big-biz interests "grease the wheels" - and not
always because they WANT to. Remember the huge
anti-trust actions against Microsoft ? Bill Gates forgot
to grease his senators, typical nerd oversight. As soon
as he applied some grease things suddenly smoothed
out for his company.
I'm sure Trump has encountered MANY people in official
positions with itchy palms, ready to block anything he
wanted to do until he applied some green balm to those
palms. Such things are pretty much an institution in
the northeast - between mobsters and unions and
govt reps who learned corruption at their fathers knee.
> In
>Trump's case he has a long history of doing this and, as you might
>expect from the mob dominated construction industry, seems to me
>more corrupt than many of his business peers.
Yep ... GOTTA appease the mob. New York, New Jersey,
can't do ANYTHING without the mob and union bosses
getting their tribute.
And then there's all the minor officials and inspectors and
such ... they want a taste too.
And nothing can be done about it because the corrupt
and corrupters are all through the System, making sure
no effective antidote can be found.
Again, not "democracy", but a kleptocracy.
>wrote - with two exceptions.
>
>Exception (1) is intolerance of corruption by "democracies". Good
>that you used quotation marks because democracy itself is not what
>causes such intolerance but there does seem to be some
>correlation.
I tried to allude to the issue earlier when I said that
that 'democracies' (and I quote it because there are
so many variants) are intended to be much more
egalitarian than competing systems - ie the People
and those comprising the State are supposed to
be morally/legally equal. Most species of corruption
are anti-egalitarian ... give advantage to those in
control which the regular Joes do not or can not
share. Corruption is government/governors for
THEMSELVES ahead of the Peoples interests.
>Exception (2) is Trump and corruption. Whether or not he used
>clever lawyers who exploited loopholes, Trump like most successful
>businesmen have had to bend the rules to breaking point.
So long as it's ultimately legal - or at least gets a pass -
then it's not corruption per-se ... simply "using the system".
Lots of big-biz interests "grease the wheels" - and not
always because they WANT to. Remember the huge
anti-trust actions against Microsoft ? Bill Gates forgot
to grease his senators, typical nerd oversight. As soon
as he applied some grease things suddenly smoothed
out for his company.
I'm sure Trump has encountered MANY people in official
positions with itchy palms, ready to block anything he
wanted to do until he applied some green balm to those
palms. Such things are pretty much an institution in
the northeast - between mobsters and unions and
govt reps who learned corruption at their fathers knee.
> In
>Trump's case he has a long history of doing this and, as you might
>expect from the mob dominated construction industry, seems to me
>more corrupt than many of his business peers.
Yep ... GOTTA appease the mob. New York, New Jersey,
can't do ANYTHING without the mob and union bosses
getting their tribute.
And then there's all the minor officials and inspectors and
such ... they want a taste too.
And nothing can be done about it because the corrupt
and corrupters are all through the System, making sure
no effective antidote can be found.
Again, not "democracy", but a kleptocracy.
Mr. B1ack
Apr 17, 2017, 3:59:59 PM4/17/17
to
On Mon, 17 Apr 2017 08:57:22 +0100, PIBB <inv...@nospam.com> wrote:
>On 03:40 17 Apr 2017, Mr. B1ack wrote:
>
>>>Exception (2) is Trump and corruption. Whether or not he used
>>>clever lawyers who exploited loopholes, Trump like most
>>>successful businesmen have had to bend the rules to breaking
>>>point.
>>
>> So long as it's ultimately legal - or at least gets a pass -
>> then it's not corruption per-se ... simply "using the
>> system". Lots of big-biz interests "grease the wheels" - and
>> not always because they WANT to. Remember the huge anti-trust
>> actions against Microsoft ? Bill Gates forgot to grease his
>> senators, typical nerd oversight. As soon as he applied some
>> grease things suddenly smoothed out for his company.
>>
>> I'm sure Trump has encountered MANY people in official
>> positions with itchy palms, ready to block anything he wanted
>> to do until he applied some green balm to those palms. Such
>> things are pretty much an institution in the northeast -
>> between mobsters and unions and govt reps who learned
>> corruption at their fathers knee.
>
>This is perhaps where you and I differ. A court is not necessary.
>After all, a corrupt court that has been fixed is unlikely to make
>a finding for corruption. We frequently see this happening in
>places like Russia or China.
>
>However, by any standards I suggest Trump is more corrupt than most
>and his corruption is more overt too such as in the case of "Trump
>University", the way he tried to get rid of tenants in his early
>days, the way he got his gaming licence in Atlantic City, and so on.
>
>Trump's modus operandi of making a statement and then reversing
>himself 180 degrees even on a promise shows th enature of the person.
You're confusing the relative value of "corrupt" private-sector
biz practices with "corrupt" sitting politicians. The latter is FAR
worse. Those pols control the lives of millions.
>On 03:40 17 Apr 2017, Mr. B1ack wrote:
>
>>>Exception (2) is Trump and corruption. Whether or not he used
>>>clever lawyers who exploited loopholes, Trump like most
>>>successful businesmen have had to bend the rules to breaking
>>>point.
>>
>> So long as it's ultimately legal - or at least gets a pass -
>> then it's not corruption per-se ... simply "using the
>> system". Lots of big-biz interests "grease the wheels" - and
>> not always because they WANT to. Remember the huge anti-trust
>> actions against Microsoft ? Bill Gates forgot to grease his
>> senators, typical nerd oversight. As soon as he applied some
>> grease things suddenly smoothed out for his company.
>>
>> I'm sure Trump has encountered MANY people in official
>> positions with itchy palms, ready to block anything he wanted
>> to do until he applied some green balm to those palms. Such
>> things are pretty much an institution in the northeast -
>> between mobsters and unions and govt reps who learned
>> corruption at their fathers knee.
>
>After all, a corrupt court that has been fixed is unlikely to make
>a finding for corruption. We frequently see this happening in
>places like Russia or China.
>
>However, by any standards I suggest Trump is more corrupt than most
>and his corruption is more overt too such as in the case of "Trump
>University", the way he tried to get rid of tenants in his early
>days, the way he got his gaming licence in Atlantic City, and so on.
>
>Trump's modus operandi of making a statement and then reversing
>himself 180 degrees even on a promise shows th enature of the person.
You're confusing the relative value of "corrupt" private-sector
biz practices with "corrupt" sitting politicians. The latter is FAR
worse. Those pols control the lives of millions.
Mr. B1ack
Apr 18, 2017, 2:52:51 PM4/18/17
to
On Tue, 18 Apr 2017 08:48:56 +0100, PIBB <nos...@nospam.invalid> wrote:
>Trump has brought his already massive private sector corruption
>into politics. It's the only way he has known.
Sigh ... if you say so Pibb .... but he's still not nearly as GOOD
at it as Hillary :-)
>What's worse, he seems to think his life long nepotism and
>corruption are entirely normal.
With enemies on the left and enemies on the right
its wise to stick with those you can trust.
>into politics. It's the only way he has known.
Sigh ... if you say so Pibb .... but he's still not nearly as GOOD
at it as Hillary :-)
>What's worse, he seems to think his life long nepotism and
>corruption are entirely normal.
With enemies on the left and enemies on the right
its wise to stick with those you can trust.
Mr. B1ack
Apr 18, 2017, 9:44:36 PM4/18/17
to
On Tue, 18 Apr 2017 20:58:53 +0100, PIBB <nos...@nospam.invalid> wrote:
>Hillary isn't president.
Thank the stars !
She was expertly corrupt even as senator and SoS.
Just IMAGINE what her accomlishments would have
been with presidential powers !!!
>Trump should publish his tax returns
Trump should NEVER publish his tax returns. Only
vile lefties are interested, and not for any good reasons.
There was some Dem pol on the TeeVee tonight saying
that if Trump didn't publish his returns he wouldn't get
any cooperation on tax reform .... as if any Dem was
gonna vote for ANY measure Trump wanted in the
first place ! Hilarious !!! :-)
Besides, Dems love ALL taxes - except "poll taxes",
which were actually fees.
The GOP will just go *around* them again ...
> as Hillary and dozens of
>previous candidiates did, so we can see if his tax reforms benefit
>him unduly.
You ain't gonna see a thing. Never.
Except that one stolen form ... which showed he paid
quite a lot of tax.
>>>What's worse, he seems to think his life long nepotism and
>>>corruption are entirely normal.
>>
>> With enemies on the left and enemies on the right
>> its wise to stick with those you can trust.
>
>Trump makes unnecessary enemies from his aggressive bullying. No
>wonder then that he can only find support from his corrupt cabal.
We hired him to bully the swampers. Not one of the
other candidates had the balls - not one.
Thank the stars !
She was expertly corrupt even as senator and SoS.
Just IMAGINE what her accomlishments would have
been with presidential powers !!!
>Trump should publish his tax returns
Trump should NEVER publish his tax returns. Only
vile lefties are interested, and not for any good reasons.
There was some Dem pol on the TeeVee tonight saying
that if Trump didn't publish his returns he wouldn't get
any cooperation on tax reform .... as if any Dem was
gonna vote for ANY measure Trump wanted in the
first place ! Hilarious !!! :-)
Besides, Dems love ALL taxes - except "poll taxes",
which were actually fees.
The GOP will just go *around* them again ...
> as Hillary and dozens of
>previous candidiates did, so we can see if his tax reforms benefit
>him unduly.
You ain't gonna see a thing. Never.
Except that one stolen form ... which showed he paid
quite a lot of tax.
>>>What's worse, he seems to think his life long nepotism and
>>>corruption are entirely normal.
>>
>> With enemies on the left and enemies on the right
>> its wise to stick with those you can trust.
>
>wonder then that he can only find support from his corrupt cabal.
We hired him to bully the swampers. Not one of the
other candidates had the balls - not one.
0 new messages