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The Ukraine's Coup
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Oleg Smirnov
Apr 2, 2014, 5:03:35 PM4/2/14
to
Barry Bruyea,
<news:qlooj9l4vgh0q3uij...@4ax.com>
> On Wed, 2 Apr 2014 19:34:33 +0400, "Oleg Smirnov"
> <ve...@gde.ru> wrote:
>>>> If they were majority group then they would
>>>> not need to arrange the coup, and the upcoming
>>>> elections were scheduled soon.
>>>
>>> Not very good. Try again, There a hell of lot more
>>> ethnic Ukrainians than Ethnic Russians in the country.
>>> I will concede that the Eastern Ukraine has a large
>>> number of Russians, but the country as a whole is
>>> majority Ukrainian.
>>
>> Your speech is irrelevant to my argument.
>>
>> There is no need to arrange a coup for majority group.
>>
>> Simple.
>
> Simple, yes, for somebody whose logic is that of a child.
> Give me that alternative for a majority group to get rid
> of a corrupt, murdering leader? Wait for him to turn
> honest?
The 'logic is that of a child' is on your side. If he
really was so bad then how the EU leaders were going to
enter into the association agreement with him? Why did
not he order the police to disperse the protest rally
from the very beginning (as regularly do the Turkey's
leader, the French Hollande, the Saudis, and many other
beloved Western allies)? The police could easily do so
if there was an order. There was no such order because
the president wanted to be a 'true democrat'.
In 'the last' day, already after 100 people were killed,
a high American official said <http://tinyurl.com/o785fbm>:
"Our position is the President Yankukovych needs to
lead his country into a new future .." How could he say
that about a 'corrupt, murdering leader'?
The image of Yanukovich as a 'dictator' is entirely
artificial thing that the Western media began to create
from scratch in retaliation for his refusal to sign the
EU association agreement (because the agreement was not
economically profitable), and then 'finalized' him as
'murdering tyrant' after the coup, to create the false
appearance of 'the people against the dictator'.
There was no 'people against the dictator' in reality,
Yanukovich was not a dictator, all the democratic
institutions in the country were functional, but the
'peaceful protester' militants, egged by the Western
politicians, rejected any kind of compromise solution
while a huge part of society that did not support the
protest just expected the order will be restored soon.
Instead of that the Western 'mediators' coerced
demoralized Yankukovych to withdraw police from streets
(that allowed the militants to accomplish the coup
successfully) and then recognized the self-proclaimed
usurpers of democratic power as the 'new government'.
Is this the democracy and the rule of law?
No, this is utter and complete shit.
<news:qlooj9l4vgh0q3uij...@4ax.com>
> On Wed, 2 Apr 2014 19:34:33 +0400, "Oleg Smirnov"
> <ve...@gde.ru> wrote:
>>>> If they were majority group then they would
>>>> not need to arrange the coup, and the upcoming
>>>> elections were scheduled soon.
>>>
>>> Not very good. Try again, There a hell of lot more
>>> ethnic Ukrainians than Ethnic Russians in the country.
>>> I will concede that the Eastern Ukraine has a large
>>> number of Russians, but the country as a whole is
>>> majority Ukrainian.
>>
>> Your speech is irrelevant to my argument.
>>
>> There is no need to arrange a coup for majority group.
>>
>> Simple.
>
> Simple, yes, for somebody whose logic is that of a child.
> Give me that alternative for a majority group to get rid
> of a corrupt, murdering leader? Wait for him to turn
> honest?
The 'logic is that of a child' is on your side. If he
really was so bad then how the EU leaders were going to
enter into the association agreement with him? Why did
not he order the police to disperse the protest rally
from the very beginning (as regularly do the Turkey's
leader, the French Hollande, the Saudis, and many other
beloved Western allies)? The police could easily do so
if there was an order. There was no such order because
the president wanted to be a 'true democrat'.
In 'the last' day, already after 100 people were killed,
a high American official said <http://tinyurl.com/o785fbm>:
"Our position is the President Yankukovych needs to
lead his country into a new future .." How could he say
that about a 'corrupt, murdering leader'?
The image of Yanukovich as a 'dictator' is entirely
artificial thing that the Western media began to create
from scratch in retaliation for his refusal to sign the
EU association agreement (because the agreement was not
economically profitable), and then 'finalized' him as
'murdering tyrant' after the coup, to create the false
appearance of 'the people against the dictator'.
There was no 'people against the dictator' in reality,
Yanukovich was not a dictator, all the democratic
institutions in the country were functional, but the
'peaceful protester' militants, egged by the Western
politicians, rejected any kind of compromise solution
while a huge part of society that did not support the
protest just expected the order will be restored soon.
Instead of that the Western 'mediators' coerced
demoralized Yankukovych to withdraw police from streets
(that allowed the militants to accomplish the coup
successfully) and then recognized the self-proclaimed
usurpers of democratic power as the 'new government'.
Is this the democracy and the rule of law?
No, this is utter and complete shit.
M.I.Wakefield
Apr 2, 2014, 5:47:12 PM4/2/14
to
"Oleg Smirnov" wrote in message news:lhi00h$bd3$1...@os.motzarella.org...
> {~_~} Раиса, <news:1c%_u.33867$Jz7....@fx31.iad>
> > uk.politics.misc,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.usa,alt.politics.obama,talk.politics.misc
> > - removed
> >
> > We have enough idiots on can.politics without inviting in
> > more from the above groups - particularly the U.S. ones
>
> Sorry, Раиса, I will take it for the future.
Oleg licks the boots of a tin-pot-dictator-wanna-be.
Nobody is surprised.
> {~_~} Раиса, <news:1c%_u.33867$Jz7....@fx31.iad>
> > uk.politics.misc,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.usa,alt.politics.obama,talk.politics.misc
> > - removed
> >
> > We have enough idiots on can.politics without inviting in
> > more from the above groups - particularly the U.S. ones
>
> Sorry, Раиса, I will take it for the future.
Oleg licks the boots of a tin-pot-dictator-wanna-be.
Nobody is surprised.
tag-along
Apr 2, 2014, 6:06:16 PM4/2/14
to
On 4/2/2014 3:03 PM, Oleg Smirnov wrote:
> Is this the democracy and the rule of law?
http://america.aljazeera.com/articles/2013/11/5/ukraine-pens-10mshalegasbidwithusenergygiant.html
> Is this the democracy and the rule of law?
November 5, 2013
Ukraine signed a $10 billion shale gas production-sharing agreement with
U.S. oil giant Chevron on Tuesday, another step in a drive for energy
independence from Russia.
The deal to develop its western Olesska field followed a similar shale
gas agreement with Royal Dutch Shell in January and boosts Ukraine's
leadership at a time of fraught relations with Moscow over gas supplies.
"The agreements with Shell and Chevron ... will enable us to have full
sufficiency in gas by 2020 and, under an optimistic scenario, even
enable us to export energy," President Viktor Yanukovich told investors
shortly before the signing.
Ukrainian energy independence would make it more difficult for Russia to
exert pressure on Ukraine as well as the rest of Europe. In the winters
of 2006 and 2009 when Ukraine and Russia clashed over oil prices, Moscow
halted deliveries not only to Ukraine but to the rest of Europe.
http://www.upi.com/Business_News/Energy-Resources/2014/01/17/Russia-concerned-by-Ukrainian-fracking/UPI-49481389966151/
Jan. 17, 2014
Natural Resources Ministry said Friday it was concerned hydraulic
fracturing in neighboring Ukraine could pollute regional water supplies.
The ministry issued a statement Friday saying it was concerned about the
prospects for shale natural gas development in neighboring
Ukraine.Natural Resources Ministry said Friday it was concerned
hydraulic fracturing in neighboring Ukraine could pollute regional water
supplies.
The ministry issued a statement Friday saying it was concerned about the
prospects for shale natural gas development in neighboring Ukraine.
>
> No, this is utter and complete shit.
MOSCOW — Even as American and Russian diplomats groped toward a
settlement that would halt further Russian military intervention in
Ukraine, Gazprom, the Russian energy company, stepped up the economic
pressure on Tuesday by sharply raising the price it charges for natural
gas.
Gazprom, a state-controlled gas exporter, raised the price to $385 for
1,000 cubic meters of gas, the standard measure used in gas deals in
Europe, from $268, an increase of about 44 percent.
The price increase follows what analysts say is a long practice at
Gazprom of punitive pricing for countries in the former Soviet Union and
Eastern Europe that are at odds politically with Moscow, while offering
discounts to governments seen as friendly. The policy is never stated
openly, though, and the change on Tuesday was no exception.
tag-along
Apr 2, 2014, 6:06:58 PM4/2/14
to
Oleg Smirnov
Apr 2, 2014, 6:13:37 PM4/2/14
to
What are you proud of?
It's like a thief who stole something, and is proud of it now.
tag-along, <news:lhi1le$l32$2...@dont-email.me>
It's like a thief who stole something, and is proud of it now.
tag-along, <news:lhi1le$l32$2...@dont-email.me>
M.I.Wakefield
Apr 2, 2014, 6:21:38 PM4/2/14
to
"Oleg Smirnov" wrote in message news:lhi17c$jln$1...@os.motzarella.org...
> I'm a newbie here and don't know who is
> 'tin-pot-dictator-wanna-be' and who is not, and
> who beats whom, and for what, but if regular
> participant of the group is angry because of
> cross-posting then I'll try not to annoy.
Ignore anyone who tells you where you can and cannot cross-post except your
service provider.
"{~_~} Раиса" is just a hate-filled neo-fascist control-freak that nobody
should listen to.
> I'm a newbie here and don't know who is
> 'tin-pot-dictator-wanna-be' and who is not, and
> who beats whom, and for what, but if regular
> participant of the group is angry because of
> cross-posting then I'll try not to annoy.
Ignore anyone who tells you where you can and cannot cross-post except your
service provider.
"{~_~} Раиса" is just a hate-filled neo-fascist control-freak that nobody
should listen to.
tag-along
Apr 2, 2014, 6:30:31 PM4/2/14
to
On 4/2/2014 4:13 PM, Oleg Smirnov wrote:
> What are you proud of?
Not being a whore for Putin.
> What are you proud of?
> It's like a thief who stole something, and is proud of it now.
tag-along
Apr 2, 2014, 6:31:05 PM4/2/14
to
Oleg Smirnov
Apr 2, 2014, 6:41:32 PM4/2/14
to
tag-along, <news:lhi32s$2un$2...@dont-email.me>
> On 4/2/2014 4:13 PM, Oleg Smirnov wrote:
>> What are you proud of?
>
> Not being a whore for Putin.
>
>> It's like a thief who stole something, and is proud of
>> it now.
>
> Frack you!
You seem to be a moral freak.
>> What are you proud of?
>
> Not being a whore for Putin.
>
>> It's like a thief who stole something, and is proud of
>> it now.
>
> Frack you!
tag-along
Apr 2, 2014, 6:42:03 PM4/2/14
to
Message has been deleted
Message has been deleted
{~_~} Раиса
Apr 2, 2014, 7:37:47 PM4/2/14
to
On 4/2/2014 3:06 PM, tag-along AKA Chom Noamsky wrote:
>
> Indeed!
Message has been deleted
M.I.Wakefield
Apr 2, 2014, 9:47:48 PM4/2/14
to
"{~_~} Раиса" wrote in message news:m41%u.46031$5e....@fx28.iad...
> M.I.Wakefield wrote:
> > "{~_~} Раиса" is just a hate-filled neo-fascist control-freak that
> > nobody should listen to.
> And I'm second-generation Ukrainian, not first !
Not Dobranski ... no Ukrainian heritage ... and you wonder why you have no
credibility?
> M.I.Wakefield wrote:
> > "{~_~} Раиса" is just a hate-filled neo-fascist control-freak that
> > nobody should listen to.
Not Dobranski ... no Ukrainian heritage ... and you wonder why you have no
credibility?
{~_~} Раиса
Apr 2, 2014, 10:45:56 PM4/2/14
to
On 4/2/2014 6:47 PM, M.I.Wakefield wrote:
> Not Dobranski ... no Ukrainian heritage ... and you wonder why you have
> no credibility?
And spammers.
Followup to your tripe, here:
us.politics,uk.politics.misc,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.usa,alt.politics.obama,talk.politics.misc
M.I.Wakefield
Apr 2, 2014, 11:21:13 PM4/2/14
to
"{~_~} Раиса" wrote in message news:TW3%u.53931$ft3....@fx24.iad...
> On 4/2/2014 6:47 PM, M.I.Wakefield wrote:
> And spammers.
And again.
Not having a good life, are you?
> On 4/2/2014 6:47 PM, M.I.Wakefield wrote:
> > Not Dobranski ... no Ukrainian heritage ... and you wonder why you have
> > no credibility?
>
> > no credibility?
>
> Because most of you guys are liars and hate women?
Wrong twice more.
> And spammers.
And again.
Not having a good life, are you?
abelard
Apr 3, 2014, 3:58:49 AM4/3/14
to
On Wed, 2 Apr 2014 18:21:38 -0400, "M.I.Wakefield" <no...@present.com>
wrote:
>"Oleg Smirnov" wrote in message news:lhi17c$jln$1...@os.motzarella.org...
>
>> I'm a newbie here and don't know who is
>> 'tin-pot-dictator-wanna-be' and who is not, and
>> who beats whom, and for what, but if regular
>> participant of the group is angry because of
>> cross-posting then I'll try not to annoy.
>
>Ignore anyone who tells you where you can and cannot cross-post except your
>service provider.
>
>"{~_~} ?????" is just a hate-filled neo-fascist control-freak that nobody
>should listen to.
just so
--
www.abelard.org
---
This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active.
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wrote:
>"Oleg Smirnov" wrote in message news:lhi17c$jln$1...@os.motzarella.org...
>
>> I'm a newbie here and don't know who is
>> 'tin-pot-dictator-wanna-be' and who is not, and
>> who beats whom, and for what, but if regular
>> participant of the group is angry because of
>> cross-posting then I'll try not to annoy.
>
>Ignore anyone who tells you where you can and cannot cross-post except your
>service provider.
>
>should listen to.
just so
--
www.abelard.org
---
This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active.
http://www.avast.com
abelard
Apr 3, 2014, 4:14:08 AM4/3/14
to
On Wed, 02 Apr 2014 16:06:16 -0600, tag-along <t...@ur.it> wrote:
>On 4/2/2014 3:03 PM, Oleg Smirnov wrote:
>> Is this the democracy and the rule of law?
>
>
>http://america.aljazeera.com/articles/2013/11/5/ukraine-pens-10mshalegasbidwithusenergygiant.html
>
>November 5, 2013
>
>Ukraine signed a $10 billion shale gas production-sharing agreement with
>U.S. oil giant Chevron on Tuesday, another step in a drive for energy
>independence from Russia.
>On 4/2/2014 3:03 PM, Oleg Smirnov wrote:
>> Is this the democracy and the rule of law?
>
>
>http://america.aljazeera.com/articles/2013/11/5/ukraine-pens-10mshalegasbidwithusenergygiant.html
>
>November 5, 2013
>
>Ukraine signed a $10 billion shale gas production-sharing agreement with
>U.S. oil giant Chevron on Tuesday, another step in a drive for energy
>independence from Russia.
>http://www.nytimes.com/2014/04/02/world/europe/russia-ukraine.html?_r=0
>
>MOSCOW — Even as American and Russian diplomats groped toward a
>settlement that would halt further Russian military intervention in
>Ukraine, Gazprom, the Russian energy company, stepped up the economic
>pressure on Tuesday by sharply raising the price it charges for natural
>gas.
while putin is clearly revealing himself as a bad neighbour....
>
>MOSCOW — Even as American and Russian diplomats groped toward a
>settlement that would halt further Russian military intervention in
>Ukraine, Gazprom, the Russian energy company, stepped up the economic
>pressure on Tuesday by sharply raising the price it charges for natural
>gas.
it is the right of russia to sell energy for whatever it can get...
after all, like any backward country, they have little else to
offer beyond the exploitation of natural resources
but it is also the right of anyone else to attempt to get free
of their blackmail
further, it is unlikely the blackmail will last long in a world of
the mass oil exchange market...
putin is shooting russia in the foot...he is not some great leader
to be admired, he is simply a fool with mad dreams of yesterday..
...but primarily he was the problem of the russian people until
he started invading other democratic areas/countries....
one can but hope the pressures on him will grow until his
irresponsibility is curbed/mitigated
the governments of the west are like the unwise virgins...they
should never have allowed this dependency mess to develop...
clean safe nuclear power would solve the energy problems if only
western politicians would show some sense and guts...
it should have been put in places decades ago...
i might remind you that oil have been a major factor in wars for
over one century..
this dereliction of sense and duty, is no small potatoes...
Barry Bruyea
Apr 3, 2014, 10:18:50 AM4/3/14
to
On Thu, 3 Apr 2014 02:13:37 +0400, "Oleg Smirnov" <ve...@gde.ru>
wrote:
>What are you proud of?
>
>It's like a thief who stole something, and is proud of it now.
Like the Soviets/Russia slowly stealing the Crimea through Ethnic
Cleansing and Colonization over the decades and then claiming it's
"Russian". Theft at its hypocritical worst.
wrote:
>What are you proud of?
>
>It's like a thief who stole something, and is proud of it now.
Cleansing and Colonization over the decades and then claiming it's
"Russian". Theft at its hypocritical worst.
Barry Bruyea
Apr 3, 2014, 10:19:22 AM4/3/14
to
On Thu, 3 Apr 2014 02:41:32 +0400, "Oleg Smirnov" <ve...@gde.ru>
wrote:
And you seem to lack any level of morality.
wrote:
Barry Bruyea
Apr 3, 2014, 10:19:42 AM4/3/14
to
Oleg Smirnov
Apr 3, 2014, 11:05:21 AM4/3/14
to
Barry Bruyea,
<news:tarqj9h05cuanoh94...@4ax.com>
population that democratically voted to join Russia.
It's not a stealing, while the usurpation of power by
the unelected freaks in Kiev is clearly a stealing.
Pathetic 'colonization' yelpings will not help you.
<news:tarqj9h05cuanoh94...@4ax.com>
> On Thu, 3 Apr 2014 02:13:37 +0400, "Oleg Smirnov"
>> What are you proud of?
>>
>> It's like a thief who stole something, and is proud of
>> it now.
>
> Like the Soviets/Russia slowly stealing the Crimea
> through Ethnic Cleansing and Colonization over the
> decades and then claiming it's "Russian". Theft at
> its hypocritical worst.
Yes it's 'Russian' because there is Russia-friendly
>>
>> It's like a thief who stole something, and is proud of
>> it now.
>
> Like the Soviets/Russia slowly stealing the Crimea
> through Ethnic Cleansing and Colonization over the
> decades and then claiming it's "Russian". Theft at
> its hypocritical worst.
population that democratically voted to join Russia.
It's not a stealing, while the usurpation of power by
the unelected freaks in Kiev is clearly a stealing.
Pathetic 'colonization' yelpings will not help you.
Oleg Smirnov
Apr 3, 2014, 11:07:16 AM4/3/14
to
Barry Bruyea, <news:oerqj91s96l2s7mv5...@4ax.com>
>>>> What are you proud of?
>>>
>>> Not being a whore for Putin.
>>>
>>>> It's like a thief who stole something, and is proud of
>>>> it now.
>>>
>>> Frack you!
>>
>> You seem to be a moral freak.
>
> And you seem to lack any level of morality.
You are a moral freak as well, you was not able to
answer any intelligible about the 'majority group',
and instead are now throwing poop in compensation.
> On Thu, 3 Apr 2014 02:41:32 +0400, "Oleg Smirnov"
>> tag-along, <news:lhi32s$2un$2...@dont-email.me>
>>>> What are you proud of?
>>>
>>> Not being a whore for Putin.
>>>
>>>> It's like a thief who stole something, and is proud of
>>>> it now.
>>>
>>> Frack you!
>>
>> You seem to be a moral freak.
>
> And you seem to lack any level of morality.
answer any intelligible about the 'majority group',
and instead are now throwing poop in compensation.
Oleg Smirnov
Apr 3, 2014, 11:09:45 AM4/3/14
to
Oleg Smirnov, <news:lhhtsd$r54$1...@os.motzarella.org>
> Barry Bruyea, <news:qlooj9l4vgh0q3uij...@4ax.com>
>>>>> If they were majority group then they would
>>>>> not need to arrange the coup, and the upcoming
>>>>> elections were scheduled soon.
No intelligible response on that so far.
Just some poop-throwing in monkey-style.
This illustrates the depth of moral degeneration.
> Barry Bruyea, <news:qlooj9l4vgh0q3uij...@4ax.com>
>>>>> If they were majority group then they would
>>>>> not need to arrange the coup, and the upcoming
>>>>> elections were scheduled soon.
>> Give me that alternative for a majority group to get rid
>> of a corrupt, murdering leader? Wait for him to turn
>> honest?
>> of a corrupt, murdering leader? Wait for him to turn
>> honest?
Just some poop-throwing in monkey-style.
This illustrates the depth of moral degeneration.
abelard
Apr 3, 2014, 12:02:33 PM4/3/14
to
On Thu, 3 Apr 2014 19:05:21 +0400, "Oleg Smirnov" <ve...@gde.ru>
wrote:
are you really so thick that you don't know any
of the real history?
up to now, i've put it down to your poor grasp
of english and your dreadful socialist russian 'schools'
--
www.abelard.org
wrote:
of the real history?
up to now, i've put it down to your poor grasp
of english and your dreadful socialist russian 'schools'
--
www.abelard.org
Oleg Smirnov
Apr 3, 2014, 12:09:00 PM4/3/14
to
abelard, <news:ae1rj9po000hmkecj...@4ax.com>
why would 'the majority group' arrange a coup while
there are the upcoming elections very soon.
> On Thu, 3 Apr 2014 19:05:21 +0400, "Oleg Smirnov"
>> Barry Bruyea,
>> <news:tarqj9h05cuanoh94...@4ax.com>
>>> On Thu, 3 Apr 2014 02:13:37 +0400, "Oleg Smirnov"
>>
>>>> What are you proud of?
>>>>
>>>> It's like a thief who stole something, and is proud of
>>>> it now.
>>>
>>> Like the Soviets/Russia slowly stealing the Crimea
>>> through Ethnic Cleansing and Colonization over the
>>> decades and then claiming it's "Russian". Theft at
>>> its hypocritical worst.
>>
>> Yes it's 'Russian' because there is Russia-friendly
>> population that democratically voted to join Russia.
>> It's not a stealing, while the usurpation of power by
>> the unelected freaks in Kiev is clearly a stealing.
>> Pathetic 'colonization' yelpings will not help you.
>
> are you really so thick that you don't know any
> of the real history?
> up to now, i've put it down to your poor grasp
> of english and your dreadful socialist russian
> 'schools'
Instead of irrelevant babbling explain me please
>> <news:tarqj9h05cuanoh94...@4ax.com>
>>> On Thu, 3 Apr 2014 02:13:37 +0400, "Oleg Smirnov"
>>
>>>> What are you proud of?
>>>>
>>>> It's like a thief who stole something, and is proud of
>>>> it now.
>>>
>>> Like the Soviets/Russia slowly stealing the Crimea
>>> through Ethnic Cleansing and Colonization over the
>>> decades and then claiming it's "Russian". Theft at
>>> its hypocritical worst.
>>
>> Yes it's 'Russian' because there is Russia-friendly
>> population that democratically voted to join Russia.
>> It's not a stealing, while the usurpation of power by
>> the unelected freaks in Kiev is clearly a stealing.
>> Pathetic 'colonization' yelpings will not help you.
>
> are you really so thick that you don't know any
> of the real history?
> up to now, i've put it down to your poor grasp
> of english and your dreadful socialist russian
> 'schools'
why would 'the majority group' arrange a coup while
there are the upcoming elections very soon.
abelard
Apr 3, 2014, 12:13:57 PM4/3/14
to
On Thu, 3 Apr 2014 20:09:00 +0400, "Oleg Smirnov" <ve...@gde.ru>
wrote:
your culpable ignorance is no excuse
wrote:
Mr. B1ack
Apr 3, 2014, 4:26:27 PM4/3/14
to
On Wed, 02 Apr 2014 16:40:02 -0700, §?amßuster <§pamßuster@n”yet.ca>
wrote:
>
>
>========================================================================================
>
> IF YOU'RE SEEING THIS MESSAGE, YOU SPAMMED TO A CANADIAN POLITICS
>GROUP
> MAKE A CORRECTION, OR YOU'LL SEE THIS
>AGAIN
>
>========================================================================================
Include an ascii picture of Noam Chomsky next time,
now that'd be REALLY scary !
I guess the Canadians aren't gonna give any 'free money'
to Ukraine so they don't wanna hear anything about it.
>On 4/2/2014 3:06 PM,
>
wrote:
>
>
>========================================================================================
>
> IF YOU'RE SEEING THIS MESSAGE, YOU SPAMMED TO A CANADIAN POLITICS
>GROUP
> MAKE A CORRECTION, OR YOU'LL SEE THIS
>AGAIN
>
>========================================================================================
Include an ascii picture of Noam Chomsky next time,
now that'd be REALLY scary !
I guess the Canadians aren't gonna give any 'free money'
to Ukraine so they don't wanna hear anything about it.
>On 4/2/2014 3:06 PM,
>
tag-along
Apr 3, 2014, 5:26:34 PM4/3/14
to
On 4/3/2014 10:09 AM, Oleg Smirnov wrote:
> Instead of irrelevant babbling explain me please
Not difficult to do:
> Instead of irrelevant babbling explain me please
tag-along
Apr 3, 2014, 5:28:01 PM4/3/14
to
On 4/3/2014 9:09 AM, Oleg Smirnov wrote:
> This illustrates the depth of moral degeneration.
> This illustrates the depth of moral degeneration.
tag-along
Apr 3, 2014, 5:28:33 PM4/3/14
to
On 4/3/2014 9:07 AM, Oleg Smirnov wrote:
>
> You are a moral freak as well,
STFU, Putin's whore.
>
> You are a moral freak as well,
tag-along
Apr 3, 2014, 5:29:02 PM4/3/14
to
On 4/3/2014 9:05 AM, Oleg Smirnov wrote:
> Yes it's 'Russian' because there is Russia-friendly
> population that democratically voted to join Russia.
You're one sick Putin-whore, Ivan.
> Yes it's 'Russian' because there is Russia-friendly
> population that democratically voted to join Russia.
Oleg Smirnov
Apr 7, 2014, 7:34:21 AM4/7/14
to
Meanwhile, in Kiev, the far right groups have thwart all-Ukrainian
meeting of judges because they demand new and more far-right-friendly
judges. They threw the judges on the street out from the building of
Supreme Court. Witnesses say the far right militant activists spat on
the judges and beat them over the head.
There are massive rallies in Donetsk and other eastern areas, many
thousands of protesters demand referendum, and some regions stated
independence from Kiev. Junta in Kiev is promising harsh police and
military suppression of the people's uprising in the East.
meeting of judges because they demand new and more far-right-friendly
judges. They threw the judges on the street out from the building of
Supreme Court. Witnesses say the far right militant activists spat on
the judges and beat them over the head.
There are massive rallies in Donetsk and other eastern areas, many
thousands of protesters demand referendum, and some regions stated
independence from Kiev. Junta in Kiev is promising harsh police and
military suppression of the people's uprising in the East.
Barry Bruyea
Apr 7, 2014, 9:06:28 AM4/7/14
to
On Thu, 3 Apr 2014 19:07:16 +0400, "Oleg Smirnov" <ve...@gde.ru>
wrote:
That's because you don't know the difference between minority and
majority. Just another in the long list of things you don't know.
wrote:
majority. Just another in the long list of things you don't know.
Barry Bruyea
Apr 7, 2014, 9:07:34 AM4/7/14
to
On Thu, 3 Apr 2014 19:05:21 +0400, "Oleg Smirnov" <ve...@gde.ru>
wrote:
The fact you ignored the fact of ethnic cleansing through the
Soviet/Russia era says it all, and proclaims your ignorance.
wrote:
Soviet/Russia era says it all, and proclaims your ignorance.
Barry Bruyea
Apr 7, 2014, 9:09:45 AM4/7/14
to
On Thu, 03 Apr 2014 16:26:27 -0400, Mr. B1ack <now...@nada.net>
wrote:
>On Wed, 02 Apr 2014 16:40:02 -0700, §?amßuster <§pamßuster@n”yet.ca>
>wrote:
>
>>
>>
>>========================================================================================
>>
>> IF YOU'RE SEEING THIS MESSAGE, YOU SPAMMED TO A CANADIAN POLITICS
>>GROUP
>> MAKE A CORRECTION, OR YOU'LL SEE THIS
>>AGAIN
>>
>>========================================================================================
>
>
>
> Include an ascii picture of Noam Chomsky next time,
> now that'd be REALLY scary !
>
> I guess the Canadians aren't gonna give any 'free money'
> to Ukraine so they don't wanna hear anything about it.
We already have; your just to damn stupid to know that.
wrote:
>On Wed, 02 Apr 2014 16:40:02 -0700, §?amßuster <§pamßuster@n”yet.ca>
>wrote:
>
>>
>>
>>========================================================================================
>>
>> IF YOU'RE SEEING THIS MESSAGE, YOU SPAMMED TO A CANADIAN POLITICS
>>GROUP
>> MAKE A CORRECTION, OR YOU'LL SEE THIS
>>AGAIN
>>
>>========================================================================================
>
>
>
> Include an ascii picture of Noam Chomsky next time,
> now that'd be REALLY scary !
>
> I guess the Canadians aren't gonna give any 'free money'
> to Ukraine so they don't wanna hear anything about it.
>
>
>>On 4/2/2014 3:06 PM,
>>
>>tag-along aka Chom Noamsky aka Kim Dobranski wrote:
>>> The deal to develop its western Olesska field followed a similar shale
>>> gas agreement with Royal Dutch Shell in January and boosts Ukraine's
>>> leadership at a time of fraught relations with Moscow over gas supplies.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>>On 4/2/2014 3:06 PM,
>>
>>tag-along aka Chom Noamsky aka Kim Dobranski wrote:
>>> The deal to develop its western Olesska field followed a similar shale
>>> gas agreement with Royal Dutch Shell in January and boosts Ukraine's
>>> leadership at a time of fraught relations with Moscow over gas supplies.
>
>
>
>
>
>
Mr. B1ack
Apr 7, 2014, 10:12:17 AM4/7/14
to
On Mon, 07 Apr 2014 09:09:45 -0400, Barry Bruyea
<damnthet...@duck.com> wrote:
>On Thu, 03 Apr 2014 16:26:27 -0400, Mr. B1ack <now...@nada.net>
>wrote:
>
>>On Wed, 02 Apr 2014 16:40:02 -0700, §?amßuster <§pamßuster@n”yet.ca>
>>wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>========================================================================================
>>>
>>> IF YOU'RE SEEING THIS MESSAGE, YOU SPAMMED TO A CANADIAN POLITICS
>>>GROUP
>>> MAKE A CORRECTION, OR YOU'LL SEE THIS
>>>AGAIN
>>>
>>>========================================================================================
>>
>>
>>
>> Include an ascii picture of Noam Chomsky next time,
>> now that'd be REALLY scary !
>>
>> I guess the Canadians aren't gonna give any 'free money'
>> to Ukraine so they don't wanna hear anything about it.
>
>We already have; your just to damn stupid to know that.
It's "you are", not "your" ....
<damnthet...@duck.com> wrote:
>On Thu, 03 Apr 2014 16:26:27 -0400, Mr. B1ack <now...@nada.net>
>wrote:
>
>>On Wed, 02 Apr 2014 16:40:02 -0700, §?amßuster <§pamßuster@n”yet.ca>
>>wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>========================================================================================
>>>
>>> IF YOU'RE SEEING THIS MESSAGE, YOU SPAMMED TO A CANADIAN POLITICS
>>>GROUP
>>> MAKE A CORRECTION, OR YOU'LL SEE THIS
>>>AGAIN
>>>
>>>========================================================================================
>>
>>
>>
>> Include an ascii picture of Noam Chomsky next time,
>> now that'd be REALLY scary !
>>
>> I guess the Canadians aren't gonna give any 'free money'
>> to Ukraine so they don't wanna hear anything about it.
>
>We already have; your just to damn stupid to know that.
Oh, and if you gave Ukraine "free money" then
it means your govt is as stupid as our govt.
Mr. B1ack
Apr 7, 2014, 10:15:42 AM4/7/14
to
On Mon, 7 Apr 2014 15:34:21 +0400, "Oleg Smirnov" <ve...@gde.ru>
wrote:
>Meanwhile, in Kiev, the far right groups have thwart all-Ukrainian
>meeting of judges because they demand new and more far-right-friendly
>judges. They threw the judges on the street out from the building of
>Supreme Court. Witnesses say the far right militant activists spat on
>the judges and beat them over the head.
And the US/EU is *backing* these goose-steppers ...
Russia remembers the previous goose-steppers,
and how it cost them 20+ million people just to get
rid of the bastards.
Any wonder Putin decided to just take control of
Crimea (and soon the whole eastern edge of
Ukraine so he'll have a nice direct land route) ?
wrote:
>Meanwhile, in Kiev, the far right groups have thwart all-Ukrainian
>meeting of judges because they demand new and more far-right-friendly
>judges. They threw the judges on the street out from the building of
>Supreme Court. Witnesses say the far right militant activists spat on
>the judges and beat them over the head.
Russia remembers the previous goose-steppers,
and how it cost them 20+ million people just to get
rid of the bastards.
Any wonder Putin decided to just take control of
Crimea (and soon the whole eastern edge of
Ukraine so he'll have a nice direct land route) ?
Oleg Smirnov
Apr 7, 2014, 10:52:25 AM4/7/14
to
Mr. B1ack, <news:4jc5k9ht8r0jp71hu...@4ax.com>
guys, and then get rid of them. In reality it turned
out to be not so easy. Most part of them remains to
be armed, and they greatly affect Ukraine's domestic
affairs and policies. It seems they have captured
several enterprises by raiding. They blackmail public
figures they don't like and push their proteges.
> On Mon, 7 Apr 2014 15:34:21 +0400, "Oleg Smirnov"
> <ve...@gde.ru> wrote:
>
>> Meanwhile, in Kiev, the far right groups have thwart
>> all-Ukrainian meeting of judges because they demand new
>> and more far-right-friendly judges. They threw the
>> judges on the street out from the building of Supreme
>> Court. Witnesses say the far right militant activists
>> spat on the judges and beat them over the head.
>
> And the US/EU is *backing* these goose-steppers ...
Those who organized the coup hoped to use these
> <ve...@gde.ru> wrote:
>
>> Meanwhile, in Kiev, the far right groups have thwart
>> all-Ukrainian meeting of judges because they demand new
>> and more far-right-friendly judges. They threw the
>> judges on the street out from the building of Supreme
>> Court. Witnesses say the far right militant activists
>> spat on the judges and beat them over the head.
>
> And the US/EU is *backing* these goose-steppers ...
guys, and then get rid of them. In reality it turned
out to be not so easy. Most part of them remains to
be armed, and they greatly affect Ukraine's domestic
affairs and policies. It seems they have captured
several enterprises by raiding. They blackmail public
figures they don't like and push their proteges.
Oleg Smirnov
Apr 7, 2014, 10:54:43 AM4/7/14
to
Barry Bruyea,
<news:5l85k9pmaajlcqq2e...@4ax.com>
majority group' has no need to arrange a coup while
<news:5l85k9pmaajlcqq2e...@4ax.com>
> On Thu, 3 Apr 2014 19:07:16 +0400, "Oleg Smirnov"
>> You are a moral freak as well, you was not able to
>> answer any intelligible about the 'majority group',
>> and instead are now throwing poop in compensation.
>
> That's because you don't know the difference between
> minority and majority. Just another in the long list of
> things you don't know.
In a country with quite functioning democracy 'the
>> answer any intelligible about the 'majority group',
>> and instead are now throwing poop in compensation.
>
> That's because you don't know the difference between
> minority and majority. Just another in the long list of
> things you don't know.
majority group' has no need to arrange a coup while
there are the upcoming elections very soon.
Nothung can not refute this calm argument.
Oleg Smirnov
Apr 7, 2014, 10:55:25 AM4/7/14
to
Barry Bruyea,
<news:en85k91qherngt94m...@4ax.com>
<news:en85k91qherngt94m...@4ax.com>
> On Thu, 3 Apr 2014 19:05:21 +0400, "Oleg Smirnov"
>> Yes it's 'Russian' because there is Russia-friendly
>> population that democratically voted to join Russia.
>> It's not a stealing, while the usurpation of power by
>> the unelected freaks in Kiev is clearly a stealing.
>> Pathetic 'colonization' yelpings will not help you.
>
> The fact you ignored the fact of ethnic cleansing through
> the Soviet/Russia era says it all, and proclaims your
> ignorance.
It proclaims your ignorance; I know the history well.
>> population that democratically voted to join Russia.
>> It's not a stealing, while the usurpation of power by
>> the unelected freaks in Kiev is clearly a stealing.
>> Pathetic 'colonization' yelpings will not help you.
>
> The fact you ignored the fact of ethnic cleansing through
> the Soviet/Russia era says it all, and proclaims your
> ignorance.
tag-along
Apr 7, 2014, 12:25:02 PM4/7/14
to
On 4/7/2014 5:34 AM, Oleg Smirnov wrote:
> Junta in Kiev is promising harsh police and military suppression of the
> people's uprising in the East.
"People's"?
> Junta in Kiev is promising harsh police and military suppression of the
> people's uprising in the East.
You mean those Russkie plants?
ESAD, Putin-whore.
http://www.foxnews.com/world/2014/03/11/russians-enter-town-north-crimea-say-ukrainians/
KHERSON, Ukraine – Ukrainians in the Kherson province just north of
Crimea say Russian operatives have moved into the territory, an
incursion which, if true, could show Vladimir Putin has more than just
the Black Sea peninsula in his sights.
"Local residents confronted the men and asked them who they were, but
they refused to answer. We immediately suspected that they were from the
Russian Armed Forces," a Chonhar resident who asked that only his first
name, Anatoly, be used, told FoxNews.com.
tag-along
Apr 7, 2014, 12:27:16 PM4/7/14
to
On 4/7/2014 8:52 AM, Oleg Smirnov wrote:
> Those who organized the coup
> Those who organized the coup
tag-along
Apr 7, 2014, 12:27:31 PM4/7/14
to
On 4/7/2014 8:54 AM, Oleg Smirnov wrote:
> Nothung can not refute this calm argument.
> Nothung can not refute this calm argument.
tag-along
Apr 7, 2014, 12:27:45 PM4/7/14
to
On 4/7/2014 8:55 AM, Oleg Smirnov wrote:
> I know the history well.
> I know the history well.
abelard
Apr 7, 2014, 2:29:34 PM4/7/14
to
On Mon, 07 Apr 2014 10:15:42 -0400, Mr. B1ack <now...@nada.net>
wrote:
>On Mon, 7 Apr 2014 15:34:21 +0400, "Oleg Smirnov" <ve...@gde.ru>
>wrote:
>
>>Meanwhile, in Kiev, the far right groups have thwart all-Ukrainian
>>meeting of judges because they demand new and more far-right-friendly
>>judges. They threw the judges on the street out from the building of
>>Supreme Court. Witnesses say the far right militant activists spat on
>>the judges and beat them over the head.
>
> And the US/EU is *backing* these goose-steppers ...
>
> Russia remembers the previous goose-steppers,
i expect you mean their long term allies...the national socialists
have you seen russian soldiers marching?
> and how it cost them 20+ million people just to get
> rid of the bastards.
>
> Any wonder Putin decided to just take control of
> Crimea (and soon the whole eastern edge of
> Ukraine so he'll have a nice direct land route) ?
yeah, he's a real deal...
why not a direct route to the english channel...and the
see of japan...and the med while you're at it...
they'd all be very useful
--
www.abelard.org
wrote:
>On Mon, 7 Apr 2014 15:34:21 +0400, "Oleg Smirnov" <ve...@gde.ru>
>wrote:
>
>>Meanwhile, in Kiev, the far right groups have thwart all-Ukrainian
>>meeting of judges because they demand new and more far-right-friendly
>>judges. They threw the judges on the street out from the building of
>>Supreme Court. Witnesses say the far right militant activists spat on
>>the judges and beat them over the head.
>
> And the US/EU is *backing* these goose-steppers ...
>
> Russia remembers the previous goose-steppers,
have you seen russian soldiers marching?
> and how it cost them 20+ million people just to get
> rid of the bastards.
>
> Any wonder Putin decided to just take control of
> Crimea (and soon the whole eastern edge of
> Ukraine so he'll have a nice direct land route) ?
why not a direct route to the english channel...and the
see of japan...and the med while you're at it...
they'd all be very useful
--
www.abelard.org
abelard
Apr 7, 2014, 2:31:31 PM4/7/14
to
On Mon, 7 Apr 2014 18:52:25 +0400, "Oleg Smirnov" <ve...@gde.ru>
yeah, putin's dogs have been raiding armouries for weapons...
the kgb fomenting revolution in its time honoured fashion eh
the kgb fomenting revolution in its time honoured fashion eh
tag-along
Apr 7, 2014, 3:45:56 PM4/7/14
to
Mr. B1ack
Apr 7, 2014, 5:13:13 PM4/7/14
to
operatives. That whole eastern slice is very much
ethnic Russian and doesn't want to be ruled by
the new jackboots in Kiev. So ... agitation, followed
by a referendum kinda like Crimeas. Putin wants a
straight land route to Crimea and the locals want
to get away from Kiev. Not one shot needs to be
fired.
Then comes the folk dancing.
No dancing at Obama Central though ... just a lot
of people with paper bags over their heads :-)
Oleg Smirnov
Apr 7, 2014, 5:16:22 PM4/7/14
to
<http://tinyurl.com/ignorance-is-power> The WP
The less Americans know about Ukraine’s location, the more they
want U.S. to intervene ..
About one in six (16 percent) Americans correctly located Ukraine,
clicking somewhere within its borders. Most thought that Ukraine
was located somewhere in Europe or Asia, but the median respondent
was about 1,800 miles off — roughly the distance from Chicago to Los
Angeles — locating Ukraine somewhere in an area bordered by Portugal
on the west, Sudan on the south, Kazakhstan on the east, and Finland
on the north. .. .. The further our respondents thought that Ukraine
was from its actual location, the more they wanted the U.S. to
intervene militarily. Even controlling for a series of demographic
characteristics and participants’ general foreign policy attitudes,
we found that the less accurate our participants were, the more they
wanted the U.S. to use force, the greater the threat they saw Russia
as posing to U.S. interests, and the more they thought that using
force would advance U.S. national security interests; all of these
effects are statistically significant at a 95 percent confidence
level. Our results are clear, but also somewhat disconcerting: The
less people know about where Ukraine is located on a map, the more
they want the U.S. to intervene militarily.
The less Americans know about Ukraine’s location, the more they
want U.S. to intervene ..
About one in six (16 percent) Americans correctly located Ukraine,
clicking somewhere within its borders. Most thought that Ukraine
was located somewhere in Europe or Asia, but the median respondent
was about 1,800 miles off — roughly the distance from Chicago to Los
Angeles — locating Ukraine somewhere in an area bordered by Portugal
on the west, Sudan on the south, Kazakhstan on the east, and Finland
on the north. .. .. The further our respondents thought that Ukraine
was from its actual location, the more they wanted the U.S. to
intervene militarily. Even controlling for a series of demographic
characteristics and participants’ general foreign policy attitudes,
we found that the less accurate our participants were, the more they
wanted the U.S. to use force, the greater the threat they saw Russia
as posing to U.S. interests, and the more they thought that using
force would advance U.S. national security interests; all of these
effects are statistically significant at a 95 percent confidence
level. Our results are clear, but also somewhat disconcerting: The
less people know about where Ukraine is located on a map, the more
they want the U.S. to intervene militarily.
Mr. B1ack
Apr 7, 2014, 5:17:31 PM4/7/14
to
On Mon, 07 Apr 2014 20:31:31 +0200, abelard <abel...@abelard.org>
wrote:
In this particular case they sure as hell don't
need to work hard at it .... nobody in that eastern
slice of Ukraine is the least bit amused about
having the new jackboots in Kiev running their
lives. For all his flaws, Putin looks like a messiah
to them right now, rescuing good Russians from
the administrative fuck-ups of times not-so-long
past ......
wrote:
need to work hard at it .... nobody in that eastern
slice of Ukraine is the least bit amused about
having the new jackboots in Kiev running their
lives. For all his flaws, Putin looks like a messiah
to them right now, rescuing good Russians from
the administrative fuck-ups of times not-so-long
past ......
tag-along
Apr 7, 2014, 6:06:00 PM4/7/14
to
On 4/7/2014 3:16 PM, Oleg Smirnov wrote:
> The less Americans know about Ukraine’s location, the more they
> want U.S. to intervene .
The more territory Putin munches, the closer we come to world war.
> The less Americans know about Ukraine’s location, the more they
> want U.S. to intervene .
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/vladimir-putin-wants-to-regain-finland-for-russia-adviser-says-9224273.html
After annexing Crimea and with troops massed on the border of Ukraine,
Vladimir Putin will not stop trying to expand Russia until he has
“conquered” Belarus, the Baltic states and Finland, one of his closest
former advisers has said.
According to Andrej Illarionov, the President’s chief economic adviser
from 2000 to 2005, Mr Putin seeks to create “historical justice” with a
return to the days of the last Tsar, Nicholas II, and the Soviet Union
under Stalin.
Speaking to the Swedish newspaper Svenska Dagbladet, Mr Illarionov
warned that Russia will argue that the granting of independence to
Finland in 1917 was an act of “treason against national interests”.
“Putin’s view is that he protects what belongs to him and his
predecessors,” Mr Illarionov said.
“Parts of Georgia, Ukraine, Belarus, the Baltic States and Finland are
states where Putin claims to have ownership.
tag-along
Apr 7, 2014, 6:06:45 PM4/7/14
to
tag-along
Apr 7, 2014, 6:08:39 PM4/7/14
to
On 4/7/2014 3:17 PM, Mr. B1ack wrote:
> For all his flaws, Putin looks like a messiah
> to them right now,
Then they're truly delusional.
> For all his flaws, Putin looks like a messiah
> to them right now,
He's in there not for them, but to stop fracking so Russia can make more
money:
http://america.aljazeera.com/articles/2013/11/5/ukraine-pens-10mshalegasbidwithusenergygiant.html
November 5, 2013
Ukraine signed a $10 billion shale gas production-sharing agreement with
U.S. oil giant Chevron on Tuesday, another step in a drive for energy
independence from Russia.
The deal to develop its western Olesska field followed a similar shale
gas agreement with Royal Dutch Shell in January and boosts Ukraine's
leadership at a time of fraught relations with Moscow over gas supplies.
gas agreement with Royal Dutch Shell in January and boosts Ukraine's
leadership at a time of fraught relations with Moscow over gas supplies.
Mr. B1ack
Apr 7, 2014, 9:28:26 PM4/7/14
to
On Mon, 07 Apr 2014 16:08:39 -0600, tag-along <t...@ur.it> wrote:
>On 4/7/2014 3:17 PM, Mr. B1ack wrote:
>> For all his flaws, Putin looks like a messiah
>> to them right now,
>
>Then they're truly delusional.
>
>He's in there not for them, but to stop fracking so Russia can make more
>money:
Right now they don't see that angle, and/or don't
>On 4/7/2014 3:17 PM, Mr. B1ack wrote:
>> For all his flaws, Putin looks like a messiah
>> to them right now,
>
>Then they're truly delusional.
>
>He's in there not for them, but to stop fracking so Russia can make more
>money:
care. The immediate concern is Russia-hating
jackboots taking over in Kiev - and the nasties
they can and will inflict on the ethnic Russians.
So, they'll run to mother Russia.
Oh, and now being Russian, they'll get THEIR gas
cheaper anyway. No import fees. And the "more
money" Putin may make for Russia ... now they'll
get a cut.
Win/win.
Knowing how US/EU "energy deals" tend to work out
for the victi ... er ... host country, I doubt the remaining
Ukrainians will see a single euro. It'll all go into corporate
profits and the new overlords pockets. Complain and
the jackboots will show up at your home ...
Oleg Smirnov
Apr 8, 2014, 7:06:53 AM4/8/14
to
Here is a nice picture that illustrates the Ukrainian issues
<http://tinyurl.com/nwfy26d>, and reflects the complex history
and different parts within the modern Ukraine.
In the 13 century, as the result of the Mongol invasion, most
part of the Kievan Rus, including lands of the future Ukraine,
fell into vassalage to the Golden Horde. The strong dependence
on the Horde was actually ceased in the 14th century, though the
vassalage to certain extent persisted until the 15th century.
Since the time, ie. the 14 century, the north-eastern lands of
former Kievan Rus began to take shape of independent Russian
state dominated by Moscow, while the western areas of the former
Rus were taken by the Grand Duchy of Lithuania associated with
the Poland. That was later transformed to the Polish-Lithuanian
Commonwealth, under Polish domination.
Ukraine as such is, in a nutshell, southern part of the Russian
lands that spent considerable time of their history under the
Polish rule (and the northern part is what's called Belarus now).
In the 15 and the early 16 centuries the Polish rulers pursued
colonial policies of massive 'polonization' against the Russian
population within Poland (that's the main cause of language and
culture differences between the modern Ukrainians and Russians).
These policies caused the Khmelnitsky uprising. The central pink
area corresponds to what was separated from Poland after the
uprising ('the Cossack Hetmanate' - here it's from another angle
<http://is.gd/GBgS0V>), and then came to Moscow vassalage, and
then was included into Russian empire.
The areas west of it include lands 'reclaimed' from Poland later
by the Russian tsarist army, at different times in the 17 - 19
centuries. The most western areas were 'reclaimed' from Austria-
Hungary, Romania, and Poland by the Soviet army during WW2. They
were eventually appended to the Soviet republic of Ukraine.
Several areas in the south are the territories that were taken
by the Russian tsarist army in a few wars with the Ottoman empire
in 18-19 centuries, they never had anything to do with Ukraine.
The teal area in the east was within Moscow tsardom since about
the 16 century, and it also had nothing to do with Ukraine until
the 20th century.
These areas (the east and south) were appended to the territory
of the Soviet republic of Ukraine in the 1920s. It was sort of
'perverse' affirmative action by the Bolshevist rulers when they
created the Soviet Union. The last similar thing was attaching
of Crimea to Ukraine in the 1950s.
<http://tinyurl.com/nwfy26d>, and reflects the complex history
and different parts within the modern Ukraine.
In the 13 century, as the result of the Mongol invasion, most
part of the Kievan Rus, including lands of the future Ukraine,
fell into vassalage to the Golden Horde. The strong dependence
on the Horde was actually ceased in the 14th century, though the
vassalage to certain extent persisted until the 15th century.
Since the time, ie. the 14 century, the north-eastern lands of
former Kievan Rus began to take shape of independent Russian
state dominated by Moscow, while the western areas of the former
Rus were taken by the Grand Duchy of Lithuania associated with
the Poland. That was later transformed to the Polish-Lithuanian
Commonwealth, under Polish domination.
Ukraine as such is, in a nutshell, southern part of the Russian
lands that spent considerable time of their history under the
Polish rule (and the northern part is what's called Belarus now).
In the 15 and the early 16 centuries the Polish rulers pursued
colonial policies of massive 'polonization' against the Russian
population within Poland (that's the main cause of language and
culture differences between the modern Ukrainians and Russians).
These policies caused the Khmelnitsky uprising. The central pink
area corresponds to what was separated from Poland after the
uprising ('the Cossack Hetmanate' - here it's from another angle
<http://is.gd/GBgS0V>), and then came to Moscow vassalage, and
then was included into Russian empire.
The areas west of it include lands 'reclaimed' from Poland later
by the Russian tsarist army, at different times in the 17 - 19
centuries. The most western areas were 'reclaimed' from Austria-
Hungary, Romania, and Poland by the Soviet army during WW2. They
were eventually appended to the Soviet republic of Ukraine.
Several areas in the south are the territories that were taken
by the Russian tsarist army in a few wars with the Ottoman empire
in 18-19 centuries, they never had anything to do with Ukraine.
The teal area in the east was within Moscow tsardom since about
the 16 century, and it also had nothing to do with Ukraine until
the 20th century.
These areas (the east and south) were appended to the territory
of the Soviet republic of Ukraine in the 1920s. It was sort of
'perverse' affirmative action by the Bolshevist rulers when they
created the Soviet Union. The last similar thing was attaching
of Crimea to Ukraine in the 1950s.
Mr. B1ack
Apr 8, 2014, 9:59:34 AM4/8/14
to
On Tue, 8 Apr 2014 15:06:53 +0400, "Oleg Smirnov" <ve...@gde.ru>
wrote:
Like most of eurasia, boundary lines and admiistrative
authority have changed around MANY times over the
past 1000 years. Today you're Russia, tomorrow you're
Poland, next week you're Germany .... confusing, even
to the locals.
So, is Ukraine actually Russia or just a predominantly
Russian-speaking but culturally distinct country unto
itself ? If distinct, how MUCH of todays Ukraine should
really be considered "Ukraine" and how much "Russia" ?
These factors play into the propaganda side of the
current situation.
On the realpolitik side, Russia needs back at least part of
what's now called Ukraine for security and trade reasons
and has the power and will to get it and keep it whether
there are any "good" excuses or not. No outsiders seem
to be all that interested in doing anything about it beyond
a few "symbolic" measures that'll fade away after awhile.
IMHO, so long as the western oil companies can get
access to and profit from most of the goodies under
Ukraine, they will be happy. That's why they engineered
the coup. I'm not sure about oil/gas reserves under the
eastern slice of Ukraine that Russia wants ... maybe
there aren't enough to be worth a more intense
confrontation with Russia.
wrote:
authority have changed around MANY times over the
past 1000 years. Today you're Russia, tomorrow you're
Poland, next week you're Germany .... confusing, even
to the locals.
So, is Ukraine actually Russia or just a predominantly
Russian-speaking but culturally distinct country unto
itself ? If distinct, how MUCH of todays Ukraine should
really be considered "Ukraine" and how much "Russia" ?
These factors play into the propaganda side of the
current situation.
On the realpolitik side, Russia needs back at least part of
what's now called Ukraine for security and trade reasons
and has the power and will to get it and keep it whether
there are any "good" excuses or not. No outsiders seem
to be all that interested in doing anything about it beyond
a few "symbolic" measures that'll fade away after awhile.
IMHO, so long as the western oil companies can get
access to and profit from most of the goodies under
Ukraine, they will be happy. That's why they engineered
the coup. I'm not sure about oil/gas reserves under the
eastern slice of Ukraine that Russia wants ... maybe
there aren't enough to be worth a more intense
confrontation with Russia.
tag-along
Apr 9, 2014, 4:57:14 PM4/9/14
to
On 4/8/2014 5:06 AM, Oleg Smirnov wrote:
> Here is a nice picture that illustrates the Ukrainian issues
> Here is a nice picture that illustrates the Ukrainian issues
Mr. B1ack
Apr 9, 2014, 6:23:21 PM4/9/14
to
On Wed, 09 Apr 2014 14:57:14 -0600, tag-along <t...@ur.it> wrote:
>On 4/8/2014 5:06 AM, Oleg Smirnov wrote:
>> Here is a nice picture that illustrates the Ukrainian issues
>http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/vladimir-putin-wants-to-regain-finland-for-russia-adviser-says-9224273.html
>
>After annexing Crimea and with troops massed on the border of Ukraine,
>Vladimir Putin will not stop trying to expand Russia until he has
>“conquered” Belarus, the Baltic states and Finland, one of his closest
>former advisers has said.
>
>According to Andrej Illarionov, the President’s chief economic adviser
>from 2000 to 2005, Mr Putin seeks to create “historical justice” with a
>return to the days of the last Tsar, Nicholas II, and the Soviet Union
>under Stalin.
Hmmm ... don't the Israelis claim something like
>On 4/8/2014 5:06 AM, Oleg Smirnov wrote:
>> Here is a nice picture that illustrates the Ukrainian issues
>http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/vladimir-putin-wants-to-regain-finland-for-russia-adviser-says-9224273.html
>
>After annexing Crimea and with troops massed on the border of Ukraine,
>Vladimir Putin will not stop trying to expand Russia until he has
>“conquered” Belarus, the Baltic states and Finland, one of his closest
>former advisers has said.
>
>According to Andrej Illarionov, the President’s chief economic adviser
>from 2000 to 2005, Mr Putin seeks to create “historical justice” with a
>return to the days of the last Tsar, Nicholas II, and the Soviet Union
>under Stalin.
"historical justice" every time they grab more
territory ? Apparently every country has a right
to expand to whatever it's largest borders EVER
were. Since we go along with Israel on this then
I guess we'll have to go along with Putin, right ? :-)
>Speaking to the Swedish newspaper Svenska Dagbladet, Mr Illarionov
>warned that Russia will argue that the granting of independence to
>Finland in 1917 was an act of “treason against national interests”.
culturally-distinct and well-established nation. We
can't really say the same of Ukraine. It's been more
of a "region" - of Russia/USSR - for a very long
time and clearly a hell of a lot of people there still
say they're Russians. Culturally, historically,
Ukraine is Russia. It's be in Putins interests
however to leave the western half alone.
The Baltics are a mixed situation ... historically
they spent a lot of time as "part of Russia" BUT
they never culturally assimmilated.
>“Putin’s view is that he protects what belongs to him and his
>predecessors,” Mr Illarionov said.
>
>“Parts of Georgia, Ukraine, Belarus, the Baltic States and Finland are
>states where Putin claims to have ownership.
encompassed by its current borders too ...
but we LOVE Israel :-)
tag-along
Apr 9, 2014, 6:27:59 PM4/9/14
to
On 4/9/2014 4:23 PM, Mr. B1ack wrote:
> On Wed, 09 Apr 2014 14:57:14 -0600, tag-along <t...@ur.it> wrote:
>
>> On 4/8/2014 5:06 AM, Oleg Smirnov wrote:
>>> Here is a nice picture that illustrates the Ukrainian issues
>> http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/vladimir-putin-wants-to-regain-finland-for-russia-adviser-says-9224273.html
>>
>> After annexing Crimea and with troops massed on the border of Ukraine,
>> Vladimir Putin will not stop trying to expand Russia until he has
>> “conquered” Belarus, the Baltic states and Finland, one of his closest
>> former advisers has said.
>>
>> According to Andrej Illarionov, the President’s chief economic adviser
>>from 2000 to 2005, Mr Putin seeks to create “historical justice” with a
>> return to the days of the last Tsar, Nicholas II, and the Soviet Union
>> under Stalin.
>
> Hmmm ... don't the Israelis claim something like
> "historical justice" every time they grab more
> territory ? Apparently every country has a right
> to expand to whatever it's largest borders EVER
> were. Since we go along with Israel on this then
> I guess we'll have to go along with Putin, right ? :-)
Nope.
> On Wed, 09 Apr 2014 14:57:14 -0600, tag-along <t...@ur.it> wrote:
>
>> On 4/8/2014 5:06 AM, Oleg Smirnov wrote:
>>> Here is a nice picture that illustrates the Ukrainian issues
>> http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/vladimir-putin-wants-to-regain-finland-for-russia-adviser-says-9224273.html
>>
>> After annexing Crimea and with troops massed on the border of Ukraine,
>> Vladimir Putin will not stop trying to expand Russia until he has
>> “conquered” Belarus, the Baltic states and Finland, one of his closest
>> former advisers has said.
>>
>> According to Andrej Illarionov, the President’s chief economic adviser
>>from 2000 to 2005, Mr Putin seeks to create “historical justice” with a
>> return to the days of the last Tsar, Nicholas II, and the Soviet Union
>> under Stalin.
>
> Hmmm ... don't the Israelis claim something like
> "historical justice" every time they grab more
> territory ? Apparently every country has a right
> to expand to whatever it's largest borders EVER
> were. Since we go along with Israel on this then
> I guess we'll have to go along with Putin, right ? :-)
He's a KGB commie.
We cold war that type.
>> Speaking to the Swedish newspaper Svenska Dagbladet, Mr Illarionov
>> warned that Russia will argue that the granting of independence to
>> Finland in 1917 was an act of “treason against national interests”.
>
> Too long ago ... Finland has definitely become a
> culturally-distinct and well-established nation. We
> can't really say the same of Ukraine. It's been more
> of a "region" - of Russia/USSR - for a very long
> time and clearly a hell of a lot of people there still
> say they're Russians. Culturally, historically,
> Ukraine is Russia. It's be in Putins interests
> however to leave the western half alone.
> The Baltics are a mixed situation ... historically
> they spent a lot of time as "part of Russia" BUT
> they never culturally assimmilated.
Did Hitler ponder if Poland was Germanic enough?
>> “Putin’s view is that he protects what belongs to him and his
>> predecessors,” Mr Illarionov said.
>>
>> “Parts of Georgia, Ukraine, Belarus, the Baltic States and Finland are
>> states where Putin claims to have ownership.
>
> Israel claims a hell of a lot bigger area than is
> encompassed by its current borders too ...
> but we LOVE Israel :-)
You're damned straight we do!
Bill
Apr 9, 2014, 7:37:20 PM4/9/14
to
On Wed, 09 Apr 2014 18:23:21 -0400, Mr. B1ack <now...@nada.net>
wrote:
>>According to Andrej Illarionov, the President’s chief economic adviser
>>from 2000 to 2005, Mr Putin seeks to create “historical justice” with a
>>return to the days of the last Tsar, Nicholas II, and the Soviet Union
>>under Stalin.
>
> Hmmm ... don't the Israelis claim something like
> "historical justice" every time they grab more
> territory ?
Cite please.
wrote:
>>According to Andrej Illarionov, the President’s chief economic adviser
>>from 2000 to 2005, Mr Putin seeks to create “historical justice” with a
>>return to the days of the last Tsar, Nicholas II, and the Soviet Union
>>under Stalin.
>
> Hmmm ... don't the Israelis claim something like
> "historical justice" every time they grab more
> territory ?
Mr. B1ack
Apr 9, 2014, 9:56:06 PM4/9/14
to
On Wed, 09 Apr 2014 16:27:59 -0600, tag-along <t...@ur.it> wrote:
>On 4/9/2014 4:23 PM, Mr. B1ack wrote:
>> On Wed, 09 Apr 2014 14:57:14 -0600, tag-along <t...@ur.it> wrote:
>>
>>> On 4/8/2014 5:06 AM, Oleg Smirnov wrote:
>>>> Here is a nice picture that illustrates the Ukrainian issues
>>> http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/vladimir-putin-wants-to-regain-finland-for-russia-adviser-says-9224273.html
>>>
>>> After annexing Crimea and with troops massed on the border of Ukraine,
>>> Vladimir Putin will not stop trying to expand Russia until he has
>>> “conquered” Belarus, the Baltic states and Finland, one of his closest
>>> former advisers has said.
>>>
>>> According to Andrej Illarionov, the President’s chief economic adviser
>>>from 2000 to 2005, Mr Putin seeks to create “historical justice” with a
>>> return to the days of the last Tsar, Nicholas II, and the Soviet Union
>>> under Stalin.
>>
>> Hmmm ... don't the Israelis claim something like
>> "historical justice" every time they grab more
>> territory ? Apparently every country has a right
>> to expand to whatever it's largest borders EVER
>> were. Since we go along with Israel on this then
>> I guess we'll have to go along with Putin, right ? :-)
>
>Nope.
Israel is always bucking for "breathing room" and
>On 4/9/2014 4:23 PM, Mr. B1ack wrote:
>> On Wed, 09 Apr 2014 14:57:14 -0600, tag-along <t...@ur.it> wrote:
>>
>>> On 4/8/2014 5:06 AM, Oleg Smirnov wrote:
>>>> Here is a nice picture that illustrates the Ukrainian issues
>>> http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/vladimir-putin-wants-to-regain-finland-for-russia-adviser-says-9224273.html
>>>
>>> After annexing Crimea and with troops massed on the border of Ukraine,
>>> Vladimir Putin will not stop trying to expand Russia until he has
>>> “conquered” Belarus, the Baltic states and Finland, one of his closest
>>> former advisers has said.
>>>
>>> According to Andrej Illarionov, the President’s chief economic adviser
>>>from 2000 to 2005, Mr Putin seeks to create “historical justice” with a
>>> return to the days of the last Tsar, Nicholas II, and the Soviet Union
>>> under Stalin.
>>
>> Hmmm ... don't the Israelis claim something like
>> "historical justice" every time they grab more
>> territory ? Apparently every country has a right
>> to expand to whatever it's largest borders EVER
>> were. Since we go along with Israel on this then
>> I guess we'll have to go along with Putin, right ? :-)
>
>Nope.
occupying territories it claims USED to belong to
ancient Israel. Maybe the Italians should retake
everything old Rome used to own .... ?
>He's a KGB commie.
runs things ... indeed he's very much money-
aware. A capitalist. He's also seems to be a
minor religious nut. Make a great Republican
dontchathink ? He'd fit right in with Dick Cheney
and pals :-)
>We cold war that type.
and a profit ...........
>>> Speaking to the Swedish newspaper Svenska Dagbladet, Mr Illarionov
>>> warned that Russia will argue that the granting of independence to
>>> Finland in 1917 was an act of “treason against national interests”.
>>
>> Too long ago ... Finland has definitely become a
>> culturally-distinct and well-established nation. We
>> can't really say the same of Ukraine. It's been more
>> of a "region" - of Russia/USSR - for a very long
>> time and clearly a hell of a lot of people there still
>> say they're Russians. Culturally, historically,
>> Ukraine is Russia. It's be in Putins interests
>> however to leave the western half alone.
>
>It's no more or less so than the rest of the Baltic states.
>
>> The Baltics are a mixed situation ... historically
>> they spent a lot of time as "part of Russia" BUT
>> they never culturally assimmilated.
>
>Since when did that ever stop a meglomaniac?
>
>Did Hitler ponder if Poland was Germanic enough?
early on. The Sudetenland, Chechoslovakia,
Austria ... all "traditional parts of Germany" and
full of Germanic people. He was simply re-uniting
everybody.
Poland ... poor Poland .... it got invaded mostly
because it was between Hitler and one of his
dreampt-of great prizes, Russia. Seems Poland
is often "in the middle" of every conquerors
campaign and gets squashed over and over.
Anyway, by Poland Hitler didn't feel he NEEDED
excuses anymore. Easy victory goes to ones head.
Putin isn't a meglomaniac, he's a hard-assed
calculating don't-fuck-with-me kind of guy. I've
no doubt he'd already scripted everything that
did and is gonna happen in Ukraine well in
advance - and everything NATO would/could
do about it. However he lacks the swagger
and magnetic personality of a true meglomaniac ...
something that was easy to see in Hitler and
Mussolini and to some extent in Stalin. Putin is
a technical dictator, Big Brother material, not
a Hitler.
Which is good because we'll see some reason.
Meglomaniacs can't be bothered with that, they
think they're gods.
>>> “Putin’s view is that he protects what belongs to him and his
>>> predecessors,” Mr Illarionov said.
>>>
>>> “Parts of Georgia, Ukraine, Belarus, the Baltic States and Finland are
>>> states where Putin claims to have ownership.
>>
>> Israel claims a hell of a lot bigger area than is
>> encompassed by its current borders too ...
>> but we LOVE Israel :-)
>
>Compared to the Russkies?
>
>You're damned straight we do!
what it once beheld ... fascists. Disappointing
to say the least.
And embarassing every time the USA looks the
other way .............
Mr. B1ack
Apr 9, 2014, 9:57:20 PM4/9/14
to
On Thu, 10 Apr 2014 00:37:20 +0100, Bill <black...@gmail.com>
wrote:
Oh please .... they're always claiming they have
a property deed to the whole area, signed by God ...........
wrote:
a property deed to the whole area, signed by God ...........
Oleg Smirnov
Apr 10, 2014, 2:06:45 AM4/10/14
to
tag-along, <news:li4c85$4fg$3...@dont-email.me>
> http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/vladimir-putin-wants-to-regain-finland-for-russia-adviser-says-9224273.html
>
> After annexing Crimea and with troops massed on the
> border of Ukraine, Vladimir Putin will not stop trying to
> expand Russia until he has “conquered” Belarus, the
> Baltic states and Finland, one of his closest former
> advisers has said.
<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cyPsqsH8I4M>
> http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/vladimir-putin-wants-to-regain-finland-for-russia-adviser-says-9224273.html
>
> After annexing Crimea and with troops massed on the
> border of Ukraine, Vladimir Putin will not stop trying to
> expand Russia until he has “conquered” Belarus, the
> Baltic states and Finland, one of his closest former
> advisers has said.
Bill
Apr 10, 2014, 6:20:45 AM4/10/14
to
On Wed, 09 Apr 2014 21:57:20 -0400, Mr. B1ack <now...@nada.net>
fringe.
wrote:
>On Thu, 10 Apr 2014 00:37:20 +0100, Bill <black...@gmail.com>
>wrote:
>
>>On Wed, 09 Apr 2014 18:23:21 -0400, Mr. B1ack <now...@nada.net>
>>wrote:
>>
>>
>>>>According to Andrej Illarionov, the President’s chief economic adviser
>>>>from 2000 to 2005, Mr Putin seeks to create “historical justice” with a
>>>>return to the days of the last Tsar, Nicholas II, and the Soviet Union
>>>>under Stalin.
>>>
>>> Hmmm ... don't the Israelis claim something like
>>> "historical justice" every time they grab more
>>> territory ?
>>
>>Cite please.
>
> Oh please .... they're always claiming they have
> a property deed to the whole area, signed by God ...........
I didn't think you'd find one outside the wilder shores of the lunatic
>On Thu, 10 Apr 2014 00:37:20 +0100, Bill <black...@gmail.com>
>wrote:
>
>>On Wed, 09 Apr 2014 18:23:21 -0400, Mr. B1ack <now...@nada.net>
>>wrote:
>>
>>
>>>>According to Andrej Illarionov, the President’s chief economic adviser
>>>>from 2000 to 2005, Mr Putin seeks to create “historical justice” with a
>>>>return to the days of the last Tsar, Nicholas II, and the Soviet Union
>>>>under Stalin.
>>>
>>> Hmmm ... don't the Israelis claim something like
>>> "historical justice" every time they grab more
>>> territory ?
>>
>>Cite please.
>
> Oh please .... they're always claiming they have
> a property deed to the whole area, signed by God ...........
fringe.
Bill
Apr 10, 2014, 6:21:20 AM4/10/14
to
tag-along
Apr 10, 2014, 11:57:41 AM4/10/14
to
http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/ukraine-crisis/finland-frets-russia-launches-military-drills-its-doorstep-n67866
Russian military drills near neighboring Finland have provoked concern
that northern Europe may be the next focus of Moscow's seemingly renewed
appetite for redrawing its borders.
Troops and jet fighters from all four military regions of Russia were
deployed Sunday about 150 miles east of the Finnish border, according to
the English-language newspaper Finnbay. The Russian defense ministry
said in a statement that the exercises were pre-planned and that more
than 50 fighter pilots took part.
Oleg Smirnov
Apr 12, 2014, 6:15:18 AM4/12/14
to
Oleg Smirnov, <news:lhjtl6$e1m$2...@os.motzarella.org>
> Oleg Smirnov, <news:lhhtsd$r54$1...@os.motzarella.org>
>> Barry Bruyea,
>> <news:qlooj9l4vgh0q3uij...@4ax.com>
>
>>>>>> If they were majority group then they would
>>>>>> not need to arrange the coup, and the upcoming
>>>>>> elections were scheduled soon.
>
>>> Give me that alternative for a majority group to get
>>> rid of a corrupt, murdering leader? Wait for him to
>>> turn honest?
>
>> If he
>> really was so bad then how the EU leaders were going to
>> enter into the association agreement with him? Why did
>> not he order the police to disperse the protest rally
>> from the very beginning (as regularly do the Turkey's
>> leader, the French Hollande, the Saudis, and many other
>> beloved Western allies)? The police could easily do so
>> if there was an order. There was no such order because
>> the president wanted to be a 'true democrat'.
>>
>> In 'the last' day, already after 100 people were killed,
>> a high American official said
>> <http://tinyurl.com/o785fbm>: "Our position is the
>> President Yankukovych needs to
>> lead his country into a new future .." How could he say
>> that about a 'corrupt, murdering leader'?
>>
>> The image of Yanukovich as a 'dictator' is entirely
>> artificial thing that the Western media began to create
>> from scratch in retaliation for his refusal to sign the
>> EU association agreement (because the agreement was not
>> economically profitable), and then 'finalized' him as
>> 'murdering tyrant' after the coup, to create the false
>> appearance of 'the people against the dictator'.
>>
>> There was no 'people against the dictator' in reality,
>> Yanukovich was not a dictator, all the democratic
>> institutions in the country were functional, but the
>> 'peaceful protester' militants, egged by the Western
>> politicians, rejected any kind of compromise solution
>> while a huge part of society that did not support the
>> protest just expected the order will be restored soon.
>>
>> Instead of that the Western 'mediators' coerced
>> demoralized Yankukovych to withdraw police from streets
>> (that allowed the militants to accomplish the coup
>> successfully) and then recognized the self-proclaimed
>> usurpers of democratic power as the 'new government'.
>>
>> Is this the democracy and the rule of law?
>>
>> No, this is utter and complete shit.
>
> No intelligible response on that so far.
<http://tinyurl.com/oup2tpl>
.. Tell me who and where followed the CONSTITUTIONAL procedure to
impeach Yanukovich?
1. They had to form an investigation commission (simple majority)
2. Then the Commission decides if he is guilty or not (2/3 voices
of the members)
3. Constitutional Court and the High Court must verify if the
procedure has been fully complied with, and then they render their
decision for a vote in the Parliament.
4. Final decision is made with 3/4 of voices, which is 338 and
they only had 328. Even after they woted for MPs of their fractions
who were absent, which is illegal.
There was no Commission.
He was not charged.
Constitutional Court has been disbanded.
There was no legitimate vote.
Conclusion: Ukraine is run by a coup and US/EU support a criminal
gang.
> Oleg Smirnov, <news:lhhtsd$r54$1...@os.motzarella.org>
>> Barry Bruyea,
>> <news:qlooj9l4vgh0q3uij...@4ax.com>
>
>>>>>> If they were majority group then they would
>>>>>> not need to arrange the coup, and the upcoming
>>>>>> elections were scheduled soon.
>
>>> Give me that alternative for a majority group to get
>>> rid of a corrupt, murdering leader? Wait for him to
>>> turn honest?
>
>> If he
>> really was so bad then how the EU leaders were going to
>> enter into the association agreement with him? Why did
>> not he order the police to disperse the protest rally
>> from the very beginning (as regularly do the Turkey's
>> leader, the French Hollande, the Saudis, and many other
>> beloved Western allies)? The police could easily do so
>> if there was an order. There was no such order because
>> the president wanted to be a 'true democrat'.
>>
>> In 'the last' day, already after 100 people were killed,
>> a high American official said
>> <http://tinyurl.com/o785fbm>: "Our position is the
>> President Yankukovych needs to
>> lead his country into a new future .." How could he say
>> that about a 'corrupt, murdering leader'?
>>
>> The image of Yanukovich as a 'dictator' is entirely
>> artificial thing that the Western media began to create
>> from scratch in retaliation for his refusal to sign the
>> EU association agreement (because the agreement was not
>> economically profitable), and then 'finalized' him as
>> 'murdering tyrant' after the coup, to create the false
>> appearance of 'the people against the dictator'.
>>
>> There was no 'people against the dictator' in reality,
>> Yanukovich was not a dictator, all the democratic
>> institutions in the country were functional, but the
>> 'peaceful protester' militants, egged by the Western
>> politicians, rejected any kind of compromise solution
>> while a huge part of society that did not support the
>> protest just expected the order will be restored soon.
>>
>> Instead of that the Western 'mediators' coerced
>> demoralized Yankukovych to withdraw police from streets
>> (that allowed the militants to accomplish the coup
>> successfully) and then recognized the self-proclaimed
>> usurpers of democratic power as the 'new government'.
>>
>> Is this the democracy and the rule of law?
>>
>> No, this is utter and complete shit.
>
> No intelligible response on that so far.
<http://tinyurl.com/oup2tpl>
.. Tell me who and where followed the CONSTITUTIONAL procedure to
impeach Yanukovich?
1. They had to form an investigation commission (simple majority)
2. Then the Commission decides if he is guilty or not (2/3 voices
of the members)
3. Constitutional Court and the High Court must verify if the
procedure has been fully complied with, and then they render their
decision for a vote in the Parliament.
4. Final decision is made with 3/4 of voices, which is 338 and
they only had 328. Even after they woted for MPs of their fractions
who were absent, which is illegal.
There was no Commission.
He was not charged.
Constitutional Court has been disbanded.
There was no legitimate vote.
Conclusion: Ukraine is run by a coup and US/EU support a criminal
gang.
Oleg Smirnov
Apr 12, 2014, 10:46:52 AM4/12/14
to
Mr. B1ack, <news:qcv7k958jvbr3vvme...@4ax.com>
The 'true Ukraine' - i.e. the post-polonized descendants of
the ancient Kievan Rus - is the west, and partly the center
of the modern Ukraine, and the (rather weak) 'Ukrainness' of
the east and south is mainly the result of 'ukrainization'
of these regions during the (post-)Soviet times.
The delicate thing about the Ukrainian identity is, there
was no such identity (nor recognized language) before the
19th century. The Russians living within Poland considered
themselves (and were considered by the Poles) the (non-
muscovite) Russians, while the Russians under Moscow rule
were differed as 'the Muscovites'. On this map of Poland of
the 17 century <http://is.gd/GBgS0V> one can see 'Ruskie'
(the 'Russian District' in then Poland) right around Lviv,
the today's core of the west-Ukrainian nationalism.
Since the late 18 century the Russians living in the former
Poland-governed regions within Russian empire began to
notice their cultural differences from 'the Muscovites', and
the nationalist sentiments aroused. The authorities of
imperial Russia tried to contain that. But the Bolshevist
policies after the 1917 revolt were the opposite, after the
revolt the Bolsheviks greatly supported nationalist movements
in the former Russian empire in exchange for loyalty to the
Soviet power. Thus the present-day Ukrainian nation, grown
within the Soviet republic of Ukraine, is the final product
mainly of the Soviet social engineering.
The Russians, in average, feel positive towards Ukrainian
identity. For example, the Ukrainian folk and pop singers etc
are popular in Russia, and public sincerely loves this stuff.
What the Russians don't like is the zeal of the west-Ukrainian
nationalists to maintain the Ukrainian identity on the basis
of hostile opposition to Russia. Here is the situation when
the ordinary people feel closer kinship, but the nationalist
politicians and masterminds are jealous of that, and they try
to deliberately denigrate and demonize 'the Muscovites', to
artificially incite hatred. This is not against the 'Putin
regime', the west-Ukrainian nationalism, in its current form,
clearly promotes ethnic hatred. Meanwhile, a lot of people of
the Ukrainian and Belorussian ancestry are living in Russia.
Most of them consider themselves Russians, as well as other
Russians consider them Russians, though their roots may be
easy visible by Ukrainian / Belorussian surnames (-enko(v),
-yuk, -yak) and some other attributes. That's in lesser extent
true for the Poles as well, there are quite many Russians of
the Polish ancestry in the present-day Russia; eg. the surname
endings like -vsky or -tsky, or -ich most often point to the
Polish (or Polish Jewish) origin. By my rough estimation
about 15 - 30% of the current Russian population are those
whose ancestors more or less long ago came from the lands of
the present day Ukraine, Belarus, and Poland.
The fact that the West didn't scruple to take part in these
rather ugly ultra-nationalist affairs in Ukraine shows that
the Western politicians share anti-Russian agenda in the
ethnic sense as well; they do camouflage it more skillfully
in comparison to Hitler though.
the ancient Kievan Rus - is the west, and partly the center
of the modern Ukraine, and the (rather weak) 'Ukrainness' of
the east and south is mainly the result of 'ukrainization'
of these regions during the (post-)Soviet times.
The delicate thing about the Ukrainian identity is, there
was no such identity (nor recognized language) before the
19th century. The Russians living within Poland considered
themselves (and were considered by the Poles) the (non-
muscovite) Russians, while the Russians under Moscow rule
were differed as 'the Muscovites'. On this map of Poland of
the 17 century <http://is.gd/GBgS0V> one can see 'Ruskie'
(the 'Russian District' in then Poland) right around Lviv,
the today's core of the west-Ukrainian nationalism.
Since the late 18 century the Russians living in the former
Poland-governed regions within Russian empire began to
notice their cultural differences from 'the Muscovites', and
the nationalist sentiments aroused. The authorities of
imperial Russia tried to contain that. But the Bolshevist
policies after the 1917 revolt were the opposite, after the
revolt the Bolsheviks greatly supported nationalist movements
in the former Russian empire in exchange for loyalty to the
Soviet power. Thus the present-day Ukrainian nation, grown
within the Soviet republic of Ukraine, is the final product
mainly of the Soviet social engineering.
The Russians, in average, feel positive towards Ukrainian
identity. For example, the Ukrainian folk and pop singers etc
are popular in Russia, and public sincerely loves this stuff.
What the Russians don't like is the zeal of the west-Ukrainian
nationalists to maintain the Ukrainian identity on the basis
of hostile opposition to Russia. Here is the situation when
the ordinary people feel closer kinship, but the nationalist
politicians and masterminds are jealous of that, and they try
to deliberately denigrate and demonize 'the Muscovites', to
artificially incite hatred. This is not against the 'Putin
regime', the west-Ukrainian nationalism, in its current form,
clearly promotes ethnic hatred. Meanwhile, a lot of people of
the Ukrainian and Belorussian ancestry are living in Russia.
Most of them consider themselves Russians, as well as other
Russians consider them Russians, though their roots may be
easy visible by Ukrainian / Belorussian surnames (-enko(v),
-yuk, -yak) and some other attributes. That's in lesser extent
true for the Poles as well, there are quite many Russians of
the Polish ancestry in the present-day Russia; eg. the surname
endings like -vsky or -tsky, or -ich most often point to the
Polish (or Polish Jewish) origin. By my rough estimation
about 15 - 30% of the current Russian population are those
whose ancestors more or less long ago came from the lands of
the present day Ukraine, Belarus, and Poland.
The fact that the West didn't scruple to take part in these
rather ugly ultra-nationalist affairs in Ukraine shows that
the Western politicians share anti-Russian agenda in the
ethnic sense as well; they do camouflage it more skillfully
in comparison to Hitler though.
Oleg Smirnov
Apr 12, 2014, 5:43:10 PM4/12/14
to
Ukrainian domestic news
<http://tinyurl.com/o3cwglg>
<http://tinyurl.com/og7gsyx>
The Right Sector (the far right west-Ukrainian nationalists
who were most responsible for the violent activities in Kiev)
declared mobilization of their armed combatants, and promised
to come tomorrow to the east regions of Ukraine for fighting
against the locals that are not happy with the new order.
<http://tinyurl.com/o3cwglg>
<http://tinyurl.com/og7gsyx>
The Right Sector (the far right west-Ukrainian nationalists
who were most responsible for the violent activities in Kiev)
declared mobilization of their armed combatants, and promised
to come tomorrow to the east regions of Ukraine for fighting
against the locals that are not happy with the new order.
Oleg Smirnov
Apr 12, 2014, 6:53:51 PM4/12/14
to
Regular soldiers don't want to fight for junta against
the people, the video shows how the local inhabitants of
Artyomovsk town are disarming the gepostet soldiers.
<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dwhErv6Wujc#t=6m>
the people, the video shows how the local inhabitants of
Artyomovsk town are disarming the gepostet soldiers.
<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dwhErv6Wujc#t=6m>
Oleg Smirnov
Apr 13, 2014, 10:28:03 AM4/13/14
to
<http://tinyurl.com/ocntdbc> The LP
One killed as Ukrainian forces launch 'anti-terrorist' operation
Residents in Slaviansk told to stay indoors ..
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sloviansk>
<http://slavgorod.com.ua/news/article/799/> The town's news 13:52(+2)
The buildings of SBU and police are under control of town's home
guard. The citizens set up tents and sing patriotic songs.
People say that their fear has passed, and now they are ready to
stand 'to the death'.
<http://slavgorod.com.ua/news/article/803/> The town's news 16:54
Checkpoints of town's militia already have several levels. All day
cars drove up to the checkpoints with food, medicine and materials
for strengthening the barricades. People tell to various reporters
that they intend to stand up to the referendum.
One killed as Ukrainian forces launch 'anti-terrorist' operation
Residents in Slaviansk told to stay indoors ..
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sloviansk>
<http://slavgorod.com.ua/news/article/799/> The town's news 13:52(+2)
The buildings of SBU and police are under control of town's home
guard. The citizens set up tents and sing patriotic songs.
People say that their fear has passed, and now they are ready to
stand 'to the death'.
<http://slavgorod.com.ua/news/article/803/> The town's news 16:54
Checkpoints of town's militia already have several levels. All day
cars drove up to the checkpoints with food, medicine and materials
for strengthening the barricades. People tell to various reporters
that they intend to stand up to the referendum.
tag-along
Apr 13, 2014, 1:31:06 PM4/13/14
to
On 4/12/2014 4:15 AM, Oleg Smirnov wrote:
> .. Tell me who and where followed the CONSTITUTIONAL procedure
http://www.ibtimes.com/russians-move-beyond-crimea-plant-mines-ukrainians-say-1560613
> .. Tell me who and where followed the CONSTITUTIONAL procedure
Apparent Russian troops moved north of the Crimean border and into
Ukraine proper last week, locals told Fox News. Residents of Chonhar, a
small village just north of the peninsula, say the troops showed up last
week before being driven out and may have planted landmines.
The Russian troops refused to say who they were when confronted by
Chonhar residents, continuing the bizarre denial policy of Russia.
Ukrainian troops showed up and there was a standoff. The Russians pulled
back across the border and set up a checkpoint along one of Crimea's
major roadways to the regional capital, Simferopol, according to the report.
tag-along
Apr 13, 2014, 1:31:23 PM4/13/14
to
On 4/12/2014 8:46 AM, Oleg Smirnov wrote:
> The 'true Ukraine' - i.e. the post-polonized descendants o
> The 'true Ukraine' - i.e. the post-polonized descendants o
tag-along
Apr 13, 2014, 1:32:14 PM4/13/14
to
On 4/12/2014 3:43 PM, Oleg Smirnov wrote:
> The Right Sector
> The Right Sector
tag-along
Apr 13, 2014, 1:32:31 PM4/13/14
to
On 4/12/2014 4:53 PM, Oleg Smirnov wrote:
> Regular soldiers don't want to fight for junta
> Regular soldiers don't want to fight for junta
tag-along
Apr 13, 2014, 1:33:06 PM4/13/14
to
On 4/13/2014 8:28 AM, Oleg Smirnov wrote:
> One killed as Ukrainian forces launch 'anti-terrorist' operation
> One killed as Ukrainian forces launch 'anti-terrorist' operation
Oleg Smirnov
Apr 13, 2014, 1:42:15 PM4/13/14
to
Kiev's junta sends several hundred of the 'national guard' troops
(ie. a part of the Right Sector's militants was 'legalized' in
form of 'national guard' after the coup) to suppress Sloviansk.
Also, the junta has just announced that they have decided to use
on a large scale the regular army against the people that are not
cities of the east and south supports the protesters that refuse
to recognize the junta and demand referendum and federalization.
(ie. a part of the Right Sector's militants was 'legalized' in
form of 'national guard' after the coup) to suppress Sloviansk.
Also, the junta has just announced that they have decided to use
on a large scale the regular army against the people that are not
happy with the new order.
According to reports, a large part of local police units in many
cities of the east and south supports the protesters that refuse
to recognize the junta and demand referendum and federalization.
Bert
Apr 13, 2014, 1:48:53 PM4/13/14
to
In news:liei9p$fvn$1...@os.motzarella.org "Oleg Smirnov" <ve...@gde.ru>
wrote:
> Also, the junta has just announced that they have decided to use
> on a large scale the regular army against the people that are not
> happy with the new order.
When you say "the people that are not happy with the new order," you're
talking about members of the Russian military, right?
--
be...@iphouse.com St. Paul, MN
wrote:
> Also, the junta has just announced that they have decided to use
> on a large scale the regular army against the people that are not
> happy with the new order.
talking about members of the Russian military, right?
--
be...@iphouse.com St. Paul, MN
Oleg Smirnov
Apr 13, 2014, 1:53:11 PM4/13/14
to
Bert, <news:XnsA30E825C3A...@127.0.0.1>
Don't believe the propaganda lies that say
that all these protests are the Russian spies,
your media are just lying shamelessly.
>> Also, the junta has just announced that they have
>> decided to use on a large scale the regular army against
>> the people that are not happy with the new order.
>
> When you say "the people that are not happy with the new
> order," you're talking about members of the Russian
> military, right?
No, I'm talking about people of Ukraine.
>> decided to use on a large scale the regular army against
>> the people that are not happy with the new order.
>
> When you say "the people that are not happy with the new
> order," you're talking about members of the Russian
> military, right?
Don't believe the propaganda lies that say
that all these protests are the Russian spies,
your media are just lying shamelessly.
Bert
Apr 13, 2014, 1:57:33 PM4/13/14
to
In news:lieiui$l4u$1...@os.motzarella.org "Oleg Smirnov" <ve...@gde.ru>
wrote:
> Don't believe the propaganda lies that say
> that all these protests are the Russian spies,
Not Russian "spies." Russian military.
Although, since they're out of uniform, I suppose they could be treated
as spies.
> your media are just lying shamelessly.
Hey! That's funny.
wrote:
> Don't believe the propaganda lies that say
> that all these protests are the Russian spies,
Although, since they're out of uniform, I suppose they could be treated
as spies.
> your media are just lying shamelessly.
tag-along
Apr 13, 2014, 1:57:21 PM4/13/14
to
On 4/13/2014 11:53 AM, Oleg Smirnov wrote:
> Don't believe the propaganda lies that say
> that all these protests are the Russian spies,
>
> Don't believe the propaganda lies that say
> that all these protests are the Russian spies,
>
Oleg Smirnov
Apr 13, 2014, 2:06:56 PM4/13/14
to
Bert, <news:XnsA30E83D42DF...@127.0.0.1>
Or maybe you do not mind if they lie 'to please' your ear?
>> Don't believe the propaganda lies that say
>> that all these protests are the Russian spies,
>
> Not Russian "spies." Russian military.
>
> Although, since they're out of uniform, I suppose they
> could be treated as spies.
>
>> your media are just lying shamelessly.
>
> Hey! That's funny.
You maybe just don't realize how much your media are lying.
>> that all these protests are the Russian spies,
>
> Not Russian "spies." Russian military.
>
> Although, since they're out of uniform, I suppose they
> could be treated as spies.
>
>> your media are just lying shamelessly.
>
> Hey! That's funny.
Or maybe you do not mind if they lie 'to please' your ear?
Bert
Apr 13, 2014, 2:10:20 PM4/13/14
to
In news:liejnm$rlf$1...@os.motzarella.org "Oleg Smirnov" <ve...@gde.ru>
wrote:
> You maybe just don't realize how much your media are lying.
You're either completely un-self-aware, you do a good imitation.
Good luck.
wrote:
> You maybe just don't realize how much your media are lying.
Good luck.
Beli
Apr 13, 2014, 2:23:41 PM4/13/14
to
In article <liej70$f9o$2...@dont-email.me>, tag-along <t...@ur.it> wrote:
> On 4/13/2014 11:53 AM, Oleg Smirnov wrote:
> > Don't believe the propaganda lies that say
> > that all these protests are the Russian spies,
>
> >
>
> http://www.ibtimes.com/russians-move-beyond-crimea-plant-mines-ukrainians-say-
> 1560613
>
>
> Apparent Russian troops moved north of the Crimean border and into
> Ukraine proper last week, locals told Fox News.
You can't seriously consider Fox News a reliable news source.
> On 4/13/2014 11:53 AM, Oleg Smirnov wrote:
> > Don't believe the propaganda lies that say
> > that all these protests are the Russian spies,
>
> >
>
> http://www.ibtimes.com/russians-move-beyond-crimea-plant-mines-ukrainians-say-
> 1560613
>
>
> Apparent Russian troops moved north of the Crimean border and into
> Ukraine proper last week, locals told Fox News.
Oleg Smirnov
Apr 13, 2014, 2:24:01 PM4/13/14
to
Bert, <news:XnsA30E85FED8E...@127.0.0.1>
>> You maybe just don't realize how much your media are
>> lying.
>
> You're either completely un-self-aware, you do a good
> imitation.
I just know and compare various facts.
>> lying.
>
> You're either completely un-self-aware, you do a good
> imitation.
Heffalump
Apr 13, 2014, 2:28:21 PM4/13/14
to
On 13/04/2014 19:10, Bert wrote:
> In news:liejnm$rlf$1...@os.motzarella.org "Oleg Smirnov" <ve...@gde.ru>
> wrote:
>
>> You maybe just don't realize how much your media are lying.
>
> You're either completely un-self-aware, you do a good imitation.
>
> Good luck.
>
Former Vladimir Putin's adviser Andrei Illarionov, expressed a similar
> In news:liejnm$rlf$1...@os.motzarella.org "Oleg Smirnov" <ve...@gde.ru>
> wrote:
>
>> You maybe just don't realize how much your media are lying.
>
> You're either completely un-self-aware, you do a good imitation.
>
> Good luck.
>
conviction to Ukraine's Gordon.ua news website.
“I have to stress, this is an intervention, an insurgency of Russian
special forces, not a separatist riot on the territory of Ukraine. If
the problem is not solved within three days, the territories of Ukraine
will be lost,” said Illarionov.
Oleg Smirnov
Apr 13, 2014, 2:29:12 PM4/13/14
to
Beli, <news:130420142023419831%baihe...@xs4all.nl>
>> http://www.ibtimes.com/russians-move-beyond-crimea-plant-mines-ukrainians-say-
>> 1560613
>>
>>
>> Apparent Russian troops moved north of the Crimean
>> border and into Ukraine proper last week, locals told
>> Fox News.
>
> You can't seriously consider Fox News a reliable news
> source.
He or she has given link to outdated (March 10) 'news'.
>> 1560613
>>
>>
>> Apparent Russian troops moved north of the Crimean
>> border and into Ukraine proper last week, locals told
>> Fox News.
>
> You can't seriously consider Fox News a reliable news
> source.
Oleg Smirnov
Apr 13, 2014, 2:35:07 PM4/13/14
to
Heffalump, <news:bHA2v.120175$S44....@fx36.am4>
This guy managed to make so many crazy claims that the
Russian audience consider him clown, but the media in the
West love to use just such a kind of persons as experts.
Russian audience consider him clown, but the media in the
West love to use just such a kind of persons as experts.
tag-along
Apr 13, 2014, 2:54:00 PM4/13/14
to
On 4/13/2014 11:42 AM, Oleg Smirnov wrote:
> Kiev's junta sends several hundred of the 'national guard' troops
http://www.tol.org/client/article/24207-troops-seen-laying-landmines-north-of-crimea-protesters-stay-on-bosnias-streets.html
> Kiev's junta sends several hundred of the 'national guard' troops
Russian forces are laying landmines meant to cordon off Crimea from the
rest of Ukraine, according to various sources.
Alexei Mazepa, the regional spokesman for Ukraine’s Defense Ministry,
told the Los Angeles Times that Russian forces are “setting up
minefields across the narrow strip of land that connects Ukraine with
Crimea” in what appears to be an attempt to prevent Ukrainian troops
from entering the region.
Citing reports from the region’s media, TOL contributor Halya Coynash
writes that troops have planted mines in the Kherson region on Ukraine’s
mainland just north of Crimea.
Russian troops wearing unmarked uniforms were seen planting land mines
near the town of Chongar, which has a population of about 1,500 people.
Journalists there report that while no soldiers have entered the town,
they have established military camps close by, Coynash writes.
A school located close to the Russian outposts told parents to keep
children at home last week.
Military equipment has been in place near the town since 27 February,
according to Coynash.
Ukraine is a member of the UN convention banning anti-personnel
landmines, while Russia is not.
tag-along
Apr 13, 2014, 2:54:13 PM4/13/14
to
On 4/13/2014 12:06 PM, Oleg Smirnov wrote:
>
> You maybe just don't realize how much your media are lying.
>
> You maybe just don't realize how much your media are lying.
tag-along
Apr 13, 2014, 2:54:28 PM4/13/14
to
On 4/13/2014 12:24 PM, Oleg Smirnov wrote:
> I just know and compare various facts.
> I just know and compare various facts.
tag-along
Apr 13, 2014, 2:54:45 PM4/13/14
to
On 4/13/2014 12:29 PM, Oleg Smirnov wrote:
> He or she has given link to outdated (March 10) 'news'.
> He or she has given link to outdated (March 10) 'news'.
tag-along
Apr 13, 2014, 2:55:05 PM4/13/14
to
On 4/13/2014 12:35 PM, Oleg Smirnov wrote:
> but the media in the
> West love to use just such a kind of persons as experts.
> but the media in the
> West love to use just such a kind of persons as experts.
tag-along
Apr 13, 2014, 2:57:12 PM4/13/14
to
tag-along
Apr 13, 2014, 2:59:08 PM4/13/14
to
Pro-Russia militants have taken over a police headquarters in the
eastern Ukraine city of Kramatorsk, local media and witnesses say.
This followed a gun battle with the police defending the building as the
attackers stormed it.
Several other official buildings were reported to have been seized in
Donetsk region on Saturday.
In other incidents:
Gunmen occupied a police station and a security services building
in the town of Sloviansk
Official buildings in the town of Druzhkovka were also reported to
have been taken over
An attack on police buildings in Krasny Liman late on Saturday was
repelled, officials said
tag-along
Apr 13, 2014, 3:50:32 PM4/13/14
to
On 4/13/2014 12:35 PM, Oleg Smirnov wrote:
> This guy managed to make so many crazy claims that the
> Russian audience consider him clown,
Yo Ivan - tell Putin to fuck the Hell off.
> Russian audience consider him clown,
tag-along
Apr 13, 2014, 3:50:57 PM4/13/14
to
On 4/13/2014 12:29 PM, Oleg Smirnov wrote:
tag-along
Apr 13, 2014, 3:51:12 PM4/13/14
to
On 4/13/2014 12:24 PM, Oleg Smirnov wrote:
>
>
> I just know and compare various facts.
>
>> Good luck.
>
>> Good luck.
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