OT - Undercover stings expose 'gun show loophole'
Too_Many_Tools
I guess they were too busy having their pimps and hos chasing Acorn...
In my opinon, all sales at gun shows should be illegal.
TMT
NYC undercover stings expose 'gun show loophole'
By SARA KUGLER, Associated Press Writer Sara Kugler, Associated Press
Writer
NEW YORK – Investigators hired by New York City conducted stings at
gun shows in states that have not closed the "gun show loophole" and
found some vendors openly selling weapons to buyers who admitted they
couldn't pass background checks.
The stings, described in a city report released Wednesday, were
conducted at seven gun shows in Tennessee, Ohio and Nevada. Those
states are among the many that permit private unlicensed dealers,
known as "occasional sellers," to sell weapons at gun shows without
conducting background checks.
Gun-control advocates say the loophole makes it easier for criminals
to acquire guns and prevents law enforcement from being able to trace
those weapons if they are used in crimes.
Nine states, including New York, have passed laws to close the
loophole, requiring background checks on at least all handgun
purchases at gun shows. Mayor Michael Bloomberg has long campaigned
for Congress to close the loophole, and for states to do it on their
own if the federal government does not.
Even in states that haven't closed the loophole, federal law bars
"occasional sellers" from selling guns to people they have reason to
believe would fail a background check.
This is where the Bloomberg operation says 19 out of 30 sellers broke
the law during the investigation, in which undercover buyers wore tiny
cameras concealed in baseball hats and purses and audio recorders
hidden in wristwatches.
In each purchase, the investigator showed interest in buying a gun,
agreed on a price and then indicated that he probably could not pass a
background check. Most sellers allowed the purchases anyway,
responding in some cases by saying, "I couldn't pass one either," or
"I don't care," according to the city's report.
Two assault rifles and 20 semiautomatic handguns were bought this way,
the report said.
The 11 dealers who refused sales showed they knew the law.
"Once you say that, I'm kind of obligated not to," said one seller,
according to the report. "I think that's what the rules are."
"Fact is, you done told me too much," said another who refused. "I
wouldn't sell one to you at all."
The city has no legal authority over the dealers and is using its
findings to make a point. A copy of the report is being sent to every
member of Congress and the findings will be shared the Bureau of
Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives.
"The gun show loophole is a deadly serious problem, and this
undercover operation exposes just how pervasive and serious it is,"
the mayor said in a statement.
The undercover operation took place from about May to August and its
$1.5 million cost was paid by city taxpayers. The city hired a team of
40 private investigators from an outside firm to make the purchases.
The sting comes three years after Bloomberg's administration conducted
a similar operation focusing on illegal straw purchases at gun shops
in Georgia, Ohio, Pennsylvania, South Carolina and Virginia that
authorities believe were responsible for selling guns used in crimes
in New York City. (A straw purchase is when one person fills out the
paperwork and buys the gun for somebody else.)
Bloomberg's administration brought a civil case against 27 gun dealers
targeted in its 2006 investigation.
As a result of the suit, 20 dealers are being monitored by a court-
appointed special master. One is out of business, two more are
expected to be put under monitoring agreements and three were dropped
from the suit. A final dealer settled with the city but the terms did
not include a monitor.
Investigators in this year's sting also attempted straw purchases at
gun shows, and were successful 16 out of 17 times.
The city said it was not planning civil action this time around.
Buford Pusser
> Strange how Fox News missed this life and death problem...
>
> I guess they were too busy having their pimps and hos chasing Acorn...
>
> In my opinon, all sales at gun shows should be illegal.
>
It's a good thing your "opinion" doesn't amount to diddly shit.
> TMT
>
> NYC undercover stings expose 'gun show loophole'
> By SARA KUGLER, Associated Press Writer Sara Kugler, Associated Press
> Writer
>
> NEW YORK – Investigators hired by New York City conducted stings at
> gun shows in states that have not closed the "gun show loophole" and
> found some vendors openly selling weapons to buyers who admitted they
> couldn't pass background checks.
>
How many "Czars" hired by Obama couldn't pass a background check???
> The stings, described in a city report released Wednesday, were
> conducted at seven gun shows in Tennessee, Ohio and Nevada. Those
> states are among the many that permit private unlicensed dealers,
> known as "occasional sellers," to sell weapons at gun shows without
> conducting background checks.
>
> Gun-control advocates say the loophole makes it easier for criminals
> to acquire guns and prevents law enforcement from being able to trace
> those weapons if they are used in crimes.
>
> Nine states, including New York, have passed laws to close the
> loophole, requiring background checks on at least all handgun
> purchases at gun shows. Mayor Michael Bloomberg has long campaigned
> for Congress to close the loophole, and for states to do it on their
> own if the federal government does not.
>
Thank goodness Bloomberg doesn't have any influence in Texas.
> Even in states that haven't closed the loophole, federal law bars
> "occasional sellers" from selling guns to people they have reason to
> believe would fail a background check.
>
> This is where the Bloomberg operation says 19 out of 30 sellers broke
> the law during the investigation, in which undercover buyers wore tiny
> cameras concealed in baseball hats and purses and audio recorders
> hidden in wristwatches.
>
> In each purchase, the investigator showed interest in buying a gun,
> agreed on a price and then indicated that he probably could not pass a
> background check. Most sellers allowed the purchases anyway,
> responding in some cases by saying, "I couldn't pass one either," or
> "I don't care," according to the city's report.
>
> Two assault rifles and 20 semiautomatic handguns were bought this way,
> the report said.
>
Please define "assault rifle".
> The 11 dealers who refused sales showed they knew the law.
>
> "Once you say that, I'm kind of obligated not to," said one seller,
> according to the report. "I think that's what the rules are."
>
> "Fact is, you done told me too much," said another who refused. "I
> wouldn't sell one to you at all."
>
> The city has no legal authority over the dealers and is using its
> findings to make a point. A copy of the report is being sent to every
> member of Congress and the findings will be shared the Bureau of
> Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives.
>
Alcohol,Tobacco,firearms and explosives should be an aisle at every
Wal-Mart.
> "The gun show loophole is a deadly serious problem, and this
> undercover operation exposes just how pervasive and serious it is,"
> the mayor said in a statement.
>
> The undercover operation took place from about May to August and its
> $1.5 million cost was paid by city taxpayers. The city hired a team of
> 40 private investigators from an outside firm to make the purchases.
>
> The sting comes three years after Bloomberg's administration conducted
> a similar operation focusing on illegal straw purchases at gun shops
> in Georgia, Ohio, Pennsylvania, South Carolina and Virginia that
> authorities believe were responsible for selling guns used in crimes
> in New York City. (A straw purchase is when one person fills out the
> paperwork and buys the gun for somebody else.)
>
> Bloomberg's administration brought a civil case against 27 gun dealers
> targeted in its 2006 investigation.
>
Never mind the fact that his state in being overrun with illegal
immigrants and the state is bankrupt. Let's go after gun dealers.
> As a result of the suit, 20 dealers are being monitored by a court-
> appointed special master. One is out of business, two more are
> expected to be put under monitoring agreements and three were dropped
> from the suit. A final dealer settled with the city but the terms did
> not include a monitor.
>
> Investigators in this year's sting also attempted straw purchases at
> gun shows, and were successful 16 out of 17 times.
>
So Bloomberg has made the sale of "straw" illegal too???
> The city said it was not planning civil action this time around.
Then why did they waste he time and money on the "investigation"???
Fred B. Brown
"Too_Many_Tools" <too_man...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:c1ec22a7-3012-4aa4...@k26g2000vbp.googlegroups.com...
Strange how Fox News missed this life and death problem...
I guess they were too busy having their pimps and hos chasing Acorn...
In my opinon, all sales at gun shows should be illegal.
TMT
NYC undercover stings expose 'gun show loophole'
By SARA KUGLER, Associated Press Writer Sara Kugler, Associated Press
Writer
The is no "gun show loophole", a private citizen can sell his privately
owned
guns to anyone he wants under Federal law. Congress has no authority to
block or regulate these transactions anymore than thay can regulate the sale
of a private automobile, home or other private property. Congress knows if
they try it the Supreme Court will slap them down.
Like it or lump it, it's the law.
There are plenty of criminals out there who have never been arrested or
convicted
of a crime who can legally purchase guns.
NEW YORK � Investigators hired by New York City conducted stings at
RBnDFW
> Strange how Fox News missed this life and death problem...
About like everyone else overlooked the ACORN comeuppance?
>
> NYC undercover stings expose 'gun show loophole'
>
> NEW YORK � Investigators hired by New York City conducted stings at
> gun shows in states that have not closed the "gun show loophole"
> The city has no legal authority over the dealers
The city hired a team of
> 40 private investigators from an outside firm to make the purchases.
> The city said it was not planning civil action this time around.
Isn't this a city that is basically bankrupt? I mean besides morally, of
course. What the hell is he doing spending NYC tax dollars to
investigate alleged crimes in other states??
Gunner Asch
wrote:
>
>Investigators in this year's sting also attempted straw purchases at
>gun shows, and were successful 16 out of 17 times.
Strawman sales on the face of them are not illegal. However the buyer is
guilty of a felony when he transfers the weapon to someone not allowed
to own a firearm. Any buffoonery on this is discounted as ignorance or
a subply by an antigun extremist.
Gunner
GUNNER'S PRAYER:
"God grant me the serenity to accept the people
that don't need to get shot, the courage to shoot
the people that need shooting and the wisdom to know the difference.
And if need be, the skill to get it done before I have to reload."
0
PLMerite
If a guy is too dangerous to have a firearm, why is he allowed to walk the
street ?
"Too_Many_Tools" <too_man...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:c1ec22a7-3012-4aa4...@k26g2000vbp.googlegroups.com...
RONSERESURPLUS
> Strange how Fox News missed this life and death problem...
>
> I guess they were too busy having their pimps and hos chasing Acorn...
Once again, NO ONE CARES ABOUT YOUR OPINIION that is Usually 100%
WRONG! Private sales of Firearms is not a "GUN SHOW LOOP Hole you
Moron! Try reading up on a Topic, Knowing what you are talking about
will make you look less foolish if by now thats even possible with
you? face it Acorn, and Currupt folks like Obama and Biden Fear Gunsa
nd Gun Owners, as they know that those are freedoms they will try hard
to but never Obolish! In the end, we all know what Acorn is, what they
have done and what idiots like you support them, still?
RON
r wiley
"Too_Many_Tools" <too_man...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:c1ec22a7-3012-4aa4...@k26g2000vbp.googlegroups.com...
> Bloomberg's administration brought a civil case against 27 gun dealers
> targeted in its 2006 investigation.
>
> The city said it was not planning civil action this time around.
It's time for transparency. How much did Bloomberg spend bringing
the civil cases and what did he win. The fact that Bloomberg is not
suing this time suggests the cost-benefit ratio went against Bloomberg
and his fellow civil rights opponents.
rw
Too_Many_Tools
This sting just confirms what everyone knows...the gun shows are
selling guns to people not qualified to own them.
Gun show sales should be illegal.
There are many other routes to buy any firearm that you qualify for
and the gun show sellers can use those means. .
Meanwhile gun shows could still be an avenue to showcase weapons and
as a gathering place for those of us share an interest in firearms.
If illegal gun show selling is not controlled, society will put into
place laws that none of us want to see.
TMT
Matt
> On 7 Oct 2009 14:52:01 -0500, "Fred B. Brown" <fredbbr...@nowhere.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>
> >Investigators in this year's sting also attempted straw purchases at
> >gun shows, and were successful 16 out of 17 times.
>
> Strawman sales on the face of them are not illegal. However the buyer is
> guilty of a felony when he transfers the weapon to someone not allowed
> to own a firearm. Any buffoonery on this is discounted as ignorance or
> a subply by an antigun extremist.
While not commenting on the last part... it isn't a strawman purchase
UNTIL
the weapon is transferred, so that seems a rather odd objection.
Matt
tankfixer
@k26g2000vbp.googlegroups.com>, too_man...@yahoo.com says...
> NYC undercover stings expose 'gun show loophole'
> By SARA KUGLER, Associated Press Writer Sara Kugler, Associated Press
> Writer
>
> gun shows in states that have not closed the "gun show loophole" and
> found some vendors openly selling weapons to buyers who admitted they
> couldn't pass background checks.
>
> The stings, described in a city report released Wednesday, were
> conducted at seven gun shows in Tennessee, Ohio and Nevada. Those
> states are among the many that permit private unlicensed dealers,
> known as "occasional sellers," to sell weapons at gun shows without
> conducting background checks.
>
NYC tried stunts like this in the past.
Conducting investigations in other jurisdictions. without notifying said
jurisdictions...
Too_Many_Tools
> "PLMerite" <stock...@smokebombhill.com> wrote in message
>
> news:wq7zm.6268$uO....@en-nntp-09.dc1.easynews.com...
>
>
>
> > If a guy is too dangerous to have a firearm, why is he allowed to walk the
> > street ?
>
> the street, what's all the falderal about gun shows? I really don't think
> criminals go to gun shows to buy their guns.
>
> Steve
Why are you making excuses for illegal selling?
Are you a gun show dealer?
TMT
Too_Many_Tools
> In article <c1ec22a7-3012-4aa4-a136-d340213b9705
Stunts?
Conducting investigations that find illegal activities is the reason
for law enforcement.
TMT
Too_Many_Tools
> >> NYC tried stunts like this in the past.
> >> Conducting investigations in other jurisdictions. without notifying said
> >> jurisdictions...
>
> > Stunts?
>
> > Conducting investigations that find illegal activities is the reason
> > for law enforcement.
>
> > TMT
>
> "investigators" had to come to Tennessee to find some !! !! !! Same
> scenario as the couple that exposed ACORN .. .. possibly the
> "investigators" broke the same laws the ACORN civilian investigators.
> Maybe a few lawsuits and/or criminal charges will run these N.Y.C. guys
> back where they belong. Just what the hell are they doing performing
> any kind of investigation hundreds of miles away from their jurisdiction
> ?? ??
They were doing their job.
And found big problems with the gun shows.
Got a problem with it?
TMT
Bill Smith
You do realize these "investigators" violated Federal law don't you?
You, apparently, see no problem with this, so why do see a problem
with casual remarks dropped at the time of sale?
Bill Smith
tankfixer
@r31g2000vbi.googlegroups.com>, too_man...@yahoo.com says...
And the NYC cops should be investigated for conducting investigations
outside their jurisdiction..
Gunner Asch
<petes...@SNIPITgmail.com> wrote:
>
>Jaybus Freaking Crisco, how fucking STUPID must one be before one thinks
>licensed law enforcement officers can't investigate and prosecute flagrant
>violations law? Seriously, where the FUCK do you get THAT kind of rock hard,
>super dense, singularity-type STUPIDITY!?
They cant out of their state and out of their jurisdiction.
Or would you like Sherriff Mac to send out a couple of Aridzonas finest
to investigate you?
Hummmmmmm?
Roger Shoaf
On Oct 7, 11:50 am, Too_Many_Tools <too_many_to...@yahoo.com> wrote:
This sting just confirms what everyone knows...the gun shows are
selling guns to people not qualified to own them.
I might take issue with the above on several grounds. "Everyone" is a
rather broad term. I do not think that "everyone" agrees with the
proposition that the concept of hindering the supply by making the
legitimate purchase of a firearm a royal pain in the but has the desired
effect.
Gun show sales should be illegal.
Again this is just an opinion, but I kind of suspect that what you are
forwarding is the opinion that no one but those that you approve of should
have guns.
There are many other routes to buy any firearm that you qualify for
and the gun show sellers can use those means. .
--
Roger Shoaf
About the time I had mastered getting the toothpaste back in the tube, then
they come up with this striped stuff.
Gunner Asch
wrote:
>
>"Too_Many_Tools" <too_man...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>news:0f670d77-b774-46a8...@j19g2000vbp.googlegroups.com...
>On Oct 7, 11:50 am, Too_Many_Tools <too_many_to...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>This sting just confirms what everyone knows...the gun shows are
>selling guns to people not qualified to own them.
>
>I might take issue with the above on several grounds. "Everyone" is a
>rather broad term. I do not think that "everyone" agrees with the
>proposition that the concept of hindering the supply by making the
>legitimate purchase of a firearm a royal pain in the but has the desired
>effect.
>
>
>
>Gun show sales should be illegal.
>
>
>Again this is just an opinion, but I kind of suspect that what you are
>forwarding is the opinion that no one but those that you approve of should
>have guns.
>
>
>There are many other routes to buy any firearm that you qualify for
>and the gun show sellers can use those means. .
There are many many other places for criminals to go and buy guns. And
they use those sources. Hell..they even rent guns to criminals.
PLMerite
"Peter Principle" <petes...@SNIPITgmail.com> wrote in message
news:1noqc5lrqg0kf15e0...@4ax.com...
> You do realize you're an ignorant stupid asshole farting asinine nonsense
> about that which you know entirely not shit, don't you, counselor doofus?
>
> No? Well, then, ignorant maroon, let's try a little object lesson...
>
> Precisely what law is it you stupidly think was broken?
>
> Please be specific, explain in detail why you believe such utter horse
> shit
> and provide citations to the statute(s) you foolishly believe back up your
> absurd assumption. Times are tough and we need the laughs...
>
> Jaybus Freaking Crisco, how fucking STUPID must one be before one thinks
> licensed law enforcement officers can't investigate and prosecute
> flagrant
> violations law? Seriously, where the FUCK do you get THAT kind of rock
> hard,
> super dense, singularity-type STUPIDITY!?
>
> a
> drug buy. Duh fucking duh, duh, duh, ignorant luser...
Undercover officers don't make drug buys outside of their jurisdictions.
You're a very angry person. I hope no one has ever been so hard up for
money that they sold *you* a gun.
Regards, PLMerite
--
"Confronting Liberals with the facts of reality is very much akin to
clubbing baby seals. It gets boring after a while, but because Liberals are
so stupid it is easy work." Steven M. Barry
r wiley
"Too_Many_Tools" <too_man...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:0f670d77-b774-46a8...@j19g2000vbp.googlegroups.com...
> This sting just confirms what everyone knows...the gun shows are
> selling guns to people not qualified to own them.
It showed nothing of the sort. Everyone of whom you posted was
a qualified gun owner. Some of the buyers may have been narcs
who falsely alleged that they were going to resell the guns, but they
themselves were qualified buyers. Read your own post.
rw
Too_Many_Tools
> correctly, the "investigators" bought about two dozen guns in a state
> they did not reside in .. .. ATF says that is a major no-no .. .. it
> would be most appropriate if they were jailed for their efforts. I
> can't imagine any superior officers of NYPD approving such a stupid
> operation. It smells of something other than good police work.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
LOL..As I read the news article, the "investigators" were SOLD about
two dozen guns in a state they did not reside in .. .. ATF says that
is a major no-no.
The sellers are on the hook...as they should be.
TMT
Too_Many_Tools
>
> - Show quoted text -
You do realize these "responsible gun show sellers" violated Federal
law don't you?
You, apparently, see no problem with this, so why do see a problem
with casual remarks dropped at the time of sale?
TMT
Too_Many_Tools
> On Thu, 8 Oct 2009 00:26:11 -0700, "Roger Shoaf" <sh...@nospamsyix.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> - Show quoted text -
That may be true...but we can easily shut one of the avenues
down...gun shows.
With all your guns, why aren't your creditors paid?
TMT
Too_Many_Tools
> "Too_Many_Tools" <too_many_to...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
Oh yes it does.
TMT
Gray Ghost
news:8349ee84-4722-4509...@m20g2000vbp.googlegroups.com:
> On Oct 8, 3:46�am, Gunner Asch <gun...@NOSPAMlightspeed.net> wrote:
>> On Thu, 8 Oct 2009 00:26:11 -0700, "Roger Shoaf" <sh...@nospamsyix.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> >"Too_Many_Tools" <too_many_to...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>> >news:0f670d77-b774-46a8...@j19g2000vbp.googlegroups.com..
Why don't you tell us what the Dept of Justice and ATFE had to say? They seem
to think that gunshows sales are a tiny percentage of "illegally acquired"
guns.
If it's such a problem, won't you please tell us factually how big the
problem is? There is published data on this, are you smart enough to find it
and honest enough to tell us what you found?
Of course I do not expect an intelligent or rational answer, just more name
calling and profanity and silliness.
Bill Smith
>You do realize you're an ignorant stupid asshole farting asinine nonsense
>about that which you know entirely not shit, don't you, counselor doofus?
If you can't engage in civil discourse there's no reason to discuss
anything with you.
Bill Smith
Bill Smith
About 1% of crime guns recovered by police come from gun shows. Do you
think 1% of the problem with them will be solved by having background
checks there? FWIW, I don't have any objection to background checks on
all gun sales, but I really don't think it will do any good, it's just
politically necessary for all the hand wringers out there. The CDC
could find no evidence that any of the myriad laws we have in place
have done any good. I also think not all felons should have there
right to own a gun taken from them, just those with convictions for
violent crimes.
Most of this is really nonsense. There's a bill on the Governor's desk
in my State that would outlaw the mail order sale of ammunition.
Having failed to control millions of guns, they now want to try to
control billions of rounds of ammunition. More ammunition is lost or
discarded than is used in crime, but these idiots think they can
control who gets it.
Bill Smith
Beam Me Up Scotty
> "Too_Many_Tools" <too_man...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:0f670d77-b774-46a8...@j19g2000vbp.googlegroups.com...
>
>> This sting just confirms what everyone knows...the gun shows are
>> selling guns to people not qualified to own them.
>
You are saying there have been arrests and convictions, just post the
actual information on who was convicted.
Bama Brian
> Strange how Fox News missed this life and death problem...
>
> I guess they were too busy having their pimps and hos chasing Acorn...
>
> In my opinon, all sales at gun shows should be illegal.
>
> TMT
Hey, you keep saying you'd love to live in a police state. That's where
only the government has guns. And you get to show your papers to anyone
with a gun who asks.
But if it makes you feel just a little more secure...
I say you're an utter fool.
<snip>
--
Cheers,
Bama Brian
Libertarian
"Those who do not remember the past are condemned to repeat it."
George Santayana
Fiftycal
<too_man...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>LOL..As I read the news article, the "investigators" were SOLD about
>two dozen guns in a state they did not reside in .. .. ATF says that
>is a major no-no.
>
>The sellers are on the hook...as they should be.
Try again fool. The BUYERS were in a conspiracy to break FEDERAL GUN
LAWS. And Mayor Bloomy is the head of that conspiracy. I imagine
Obammy will give him a pass. But when Sarah gets into office, I hope
her first official act is to sign the warrant to TAKE HIM DOWN!
Wonder why they didn't go to Virginia again?
RM v2.0
> about that which you know entirely not shit, don't you, counselor doofus?
>
>
> Precisely what law is it you stupidly think was broken?
>
> Please be specific, explain in detail why you believe such utter horse
> shit
> and provide citations to the statute(s) you foolishly believe back up your
> absurd assumption. Times are tough and we need the laughs...
>
> Jaybus Freaking Crisco, how fucking STUPID must one be before one thinks
> licensed law enforcement officers can't investigate and prosecute
> flagrant
> violations law? Seriously, where the FUCK do you get THAT kind of rock
> hard,
> super dense, singularity-type STUPIDITY!?
>
> FYI, you stupid fuck, it's no more illegal than undercover officers making
> a
> drug buy. Duh fucking duh, duh, duh, ignorant luser...
>
> Welcome to reality. Enjoy your visit. Slow thinkers keep right.
> ------
> Why are so many not smart enough to know they're not smart enough?
>
Wow. Serious issues here. BTW the officers were out of their jurisdiction
and violated federal law, along with the dealers.
RD (The Sandman)
news:f53sc59bc1bfsm965...@4ax.com:
This comment is for TMT. Do you realize that all sales via dealers go
through a background check. It makes no difference whether that dealer
is at a gun show or his store front.
> FWIW, I don't have any objection to background checks on
> all gun sales, but I really don't think it will do any good, it's just
> politically necessary for all the hand wringers out there. The CDC
> could find no evidence that any of the myriad laws we have in place
> have done any good. I also think not all felons should have there
> right to own a gun taken from them, just those with convictions for
> violent crimes.
It would have to be done at the state level since there is no
constitutional authority for the federal government to meddle in or
monitor sales of private property between individual within a state.
> Most of this is really nonsense. There's a bill on the Governor's desk
> in my State that would outlaw the mail order sale of ammunition.
> Having failed to control millions of guns, they now want to try to
> control billions of rounds of ammunition. More ammunition is lost or
> discarded than is used in crime, but these idiots think they can
> control who gets it.
Yep.....when they get desparate, they will try anything.
--
Sleep well tonight,
RD (The Sandman)
"Fear is the foundation of most governments."
President John Adams
RD (The Sandman)
news:r48sc5l36kdqum1hf...@4ax.com:
> On Wed, 7 Oct 2009 17:19:39 -0500, "r wiley" <raw...@southslope.net>
> wrote:
>
>>
>>"Too_Many_Tools" <too_man...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>>news:c1ec22a7-3012-4aa4-a136-d340213b9705
@k26g2000vbp.googlegroups.com...
>>
>>> Bloomberg's administration brought a civil case against 27 gun
dealers
>>> targeted in its 2006 investigation.
>>>
>>> The city said it was not planning civil action this time around.
>>
>>It's time for transparency. How much did Bloomberg spend bringing
>>the civil cases and what did he win. The fact that Bloomberg is not
>>suing this time suggests the cost-benefit ratio went against Bloomberg
>>and his fellow civil rights opponents.
>>
> In conducting this recent so-called "Sting Operation" Bloomberg is
> guilty of Conspiracy to break Federal Firearms laws. I'm waiting for
> him to be prosecuted.
Unfortunately, with this administration it will be a long
wait....particular with Obama and Holder being butt buddies.
RD (The Sandman)
news:qGpzm.3150$Gs....@en-nntp-01.dc1.easynews.com:
If any dealer (FFLs) really did. In an article which says "assault
rifles" for semi auto firearms, I doubt the term "dealers" really means
anyone with an FFL.
jf...@ix.netcom.com
<too_man...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>On Oct 7, 6:30�pm, "SteveB" <oldf...@depends.com> wrote:
>> "PLMerite" <stock...@smokebombhill.com> wrote in message
>>
>> news:wq7zm.6268$uO....@en-nntp-09.dc1.easynews.com...
>>
>>
>>
>> > If a guy is too dangerous to have a firearm, why is he allowed to walk the
>> > street ?
>>
>> Question me this, Batman. �If a criminal can buy a gun in half an hour on
>> the street, what's all the falderal about gun shows? �I really don't think
>> criminals go to gun shows to buy their guns.
>>
>> Steve
>
>Why are you making excuses for illegal selling?
>
>Are you a gun show dealer?
>
>TMT
Why do you want to have guns removed from honest citizens? Do you
make your living taking that which doesn't belong to you and are
afraid that someone might use their gun to stop you?
ArmyOfDorkness
"Zombywoof" <fish...@live.com> wrote in message
news:r48sc5l36kdqum1hf...@4ax.com...
> On Wed, 7 Oct 2009 17:19:39 -0500, "r wiley" <raw...@southslope.net>
> wrote:
>
>>
>>"Too_Many_Tools" <too_man...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>>news:c1ec22a7-3012-4aa4...@k26g2000vbp.googlegroups.com...
>>
>>> Bloomberg's administration brought a civil case against 27 gun dealers
>>> targeted in its 2006 investigation.
>>>
>>> The city said it was not planning civil action this time around.
>>
>>It's time for transparency. How much did Bloomberg spend bringing
>>the civil cases and what did he win. The fact that Bloomberg is not
>>suing this time suggests the cost-benefit ratio went against Bloomberg
>>and his fellow civil rights opponents.
>>
> In conducting this recent so-called "Sting Operation" Bloomberg is
> guilty of Conspiracy to break Federal Firearms laws. I'm waiting for
> him to be prosecuted.
Should the people who did the "Sting Operation" against ACORN be prosecuted
too? They were trying to smuggle in kids to use in prostitution. Get a rope.
RD (The Sandman)
news:b5SdnZ08QbwyolPX...@giganews.com:
Actually, no, they weren't. That was a claim, not an acuality. The
folks doing Bloomberg's sting were not claiming to purchase firearms,
they actually did it.
Gunner Asch
They were trying to smuggle in kids to use in prostitution? Really?
Got cites, or is this something you pulled out of your fat ass?
ArmyOfDorkness
"Zombywoof" <fish...@live.com> wrote in message
news:5e8sc55j2riuanrqj...@4ax.com...
> On Wed, 7 Oct 2009 20:07:48 -0700 (PDT), Too_Many_Tools
> <too_man...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>>On Oct 7, 8:51 pm, tankfixer <paul.carr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> In article <c1ec22a7-3012-4aa4-a136-d340213b9705
>>> @k26g2000vbp.googlegroups.com>, too_many_to...@yahoo.com says...
>>>
>>> > NYC undercover stings expose 'gun show loophole'
>>> > By SARA KUGLER, Associated Press Writer Sara Kugler, Associated Press
>>> > Writer
>>>
>>> > NEW YORK ? Investigators hired by New York City conducted stings at
>>> > gun shows in states that have not closed the "gun show loophole" and
>>> > found some vendors openly selling weapons to buyers who admitted they
>>> > couldn't pass background checks.
>>>
>>> > The stings, described in a city report released Wednesday, were
>>> > conducted at seven gun shows in Tennessee, Ohio and Nevada. Those
>>> > states are among the many that permit private unlicensed dealers,
>>> > known as "occasional sellers," to sell weapons at gun shows without
>>> > conducting background checks.
>>>
>>> NYC tried stunts like this in the past.
>>> Conducting investigations in other jurisdictions. without notifying said
>>> jurisdictions...
>>
>>Stunts?
>>
>>Conducting investigations that find illegal activities is the reason
>>for law enforcement.
>>
> And Law Enforcement has jurisdictional boundaries. Bloomberg had no
> legal right to send a team of "Private" investigators into other
> states. He was actually engaging in Conspiracy when he did so. I've
> written my local Attorney General asking him to bring charges against
> Bloomberg and his investigators.
How many states did the "Pimp and Prostitute" go to when they were after
Acorn? No problem with that though?
> --
>
> "Gustatus Similis Pullus"
Ed Huntress
"RD (The Sandman)" <rdsandman(spamlock)@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:Xns9C9E8183C...@216.196.97.130...
But purchasing firearms is not a crime. Videotaping someone without their
knowledge, in Maryland, *is* a crime.
For those who have commented here that no crime is committed until the gun
is actually transferred to an illegal purchaser -- no, that's not the case.
Read the law. Intent is enough.
"Intent" usually is part of the charge in actual cases. But it's
retroactive, because it's very hard to prosecute intent before the fact of
transfer. It may have been charged without an actual transfer in some cases,
but once a gun used by a person who can't purchase legally is tracked back
to the purchaser, intent is charged along with the actual transfer.
It's actually easier to defend against the actual transfer than the "intent"
charge.
--
Ed Huntress
RD (The Sandman)
news:4ace4376$0$31274$607e...@cv.net:
>
> "RD (The Sandman)" <rdsandman(spamlock)@comcast.net> wrote in message
> news:Xns9C9E8183C...@216.196.97.130...
>> "ArmyOfDorkness" <DorkAs...@hotmail.com> wrote in
>> news:b5SdnZ08QbwyolPX...@giganews.com:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> "Zombywoof" <fish...@live.com> wrote in message
>>> news:r48sc5l36kdqum1hf...@4ax.com...
>>>> On Wed, 7 Oct 2009 17:19:39 -0500, "r wiley"
>>>> <raw...@southslope.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>"Too_Many_Tools" <too_man...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>>>>>news:c1ec22a7-3012-4aa4...@k26g2000vbp.googlegroups.c
>>>>>om ...
>>>>>
>>>>>> Bloomberg's administration brought a civil case against 27 gun
>>>>>> dealers targeted in its 2006 investigation.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The city said it was not planning civil action this time around.
>>>>>
>>>>>It's time for transparency. How much did Bloomberg spend bringing
>>>>>the civil cases and what did he win. The fact that Bloomberg is
>>>>>not suing this time suggests the cost-benefit ratio went against
>>>>>Bloomberg and his fellow civil rights opponents.
>>>>>
>>>> In conducting this recent so-called "Sting Operation" Bloomberg is
>>>> guilty of Conspiracy to break Federal Firearms laws. I'm waiting
>>>> for him to be prosecuted.
>>>
>>> Should the people who did the "Sting Operation" against ACORN be
>>> prosecuted too? They were trying to smuggle in kids to use in
>>> prostitution. Get a rope.
>>
>> Actually, no, they weren't. That was a claim, not an acuality. The
>> folks doing Bloomberg's sting were not claiming to purchase firearms,
>> they actually did it.
>
> But purchasing firearms is not a crime.
Depends on how and who is purchasing them.
> Videotaping someone without
> their knowledge, in Maryland, *is* a crime.
Yes, but Maryland was not the only state where the videotaping took
place, and the taping was done in a public office where there really is
no expectation of privacy. It is like video taping police officers
during an arrest.
> For those who have commented here that no crime is committed until the
> gun is actually transferred to an illegal purchaser -- no, that's not
> the case. Read the law. Intent is enough.
Agreed, however, proving intent is the problem.
> "Intent" usually is part of the charge in actual cases. But it's
> retroactive, because it's very hard to prosecute intent before the
> fact of transfer. It may have been charged without an actual transfer
> in some cases, but once a gun used by a person who can't purchase
> legally is tracked back to the purchaser, intent is charged along with
> the actual transfer.
>
> It's actually easier to defend against the actual transfer than the
> "intent" charge.
Although until there is an actual transfer, as you noted, it is rather
difficult to prove intent. ;)
--
Sleep well tonight,
RD (The Sandman)
On TV, they show how detergents take out bloodstains. A pretty
violent image. I think if you've got a Tshirt full of bloodstains,
maybe laundry isn't your biggest problem. Maybe you should get rid
of the body before you do the wash and get some different friends.
RD (The Sandman)
news:EOGdnZgGbL273lPX...@giganews.com:
They don't have jurisdictional problems. The NYPD does.
Ed Huntress
Again, purchasing them is not a crime. In the case of this sting, they used
legal "strawmen," and there was no intent to sell to disqualified buyers. So
they were legal sales.
If they weren't, don't you think the NRA and other gun organizations would
be beating the drums to arrest them? Now'll have to find something else to
beat.
>
>> Videotaping someone without
>> their knowledge, in Maryland, *is* a crime.
>
> Yes, but Maryland was not the only state where the videotaping took
> place, and the taping was done in a public office where there really is
> no expectation of privacy. It is like video taping police officers
> during an arrest.
As I said to Strabo, I hope you don't try to defend yourself in court. You
could go in with a traffic ticket, and come out with a three-year jail
sentence. <g>
The Maryland law is clear. It's similar to wiretap laws in many states (but
not in my state, and not under federal law), where both parties have to know
they're being taped. That applies even if it's a conference call between
unknown people at two different companies.
>
>> For those who have commented here that no crime is committed until the
>> gun is actually transferred to an illegal purchaser -- no, that's not
>> the case. Read the law. Intent is enough.
>
> Agreed, however, proving intent is the problem.
>
>> "Intent" usually is part of the charge in actual cases. But it's
>> retroactive, because it's very hard to prosecute intent before the
>> fact of transfer. It may have been charged without an actual transfer
>> in some cases, but once a gun used by a person who can't purchase
>> legally is tracked back to the purchaser, intent is charged along with
>> the actual transfer.
>>
>> It's actually easier to defend against the actual transfer than the
>> "intent" charge.
>
> Although until there is an actual transfer, as you noted, it is rather
> difficult to prove intent. ;)
That's why strawman purchases are such a big loophole. They can go on at a
gun show, or between private parties, or even at a retail store. It's very
hard to stop. And that's why Bloomberg, etc. are using it as an angle for
more gun control.
But NYC police didn't break any laws. If they did, the charges would be
piling up, the NRA would be all over the evening news with it, and fur would
be flying.
--
Ed Huntress
HH&C
> Strange how Fox News missed this life and death problem...
>
> I guess they were too busy having their pimps and hos chasing Acorn...
>
> In my opinon, all sales at gun shows should be illegal.
>
> TMT
>
> By SARA KUGLER, Associated Press Writer Sara Kugler, Associated Press
> Writer
>
> gun shows in states that have not closed the "gun show loophole" and
> found some vendors openly selling weapons to buyers who admitted they
> couldn't pass background checks.
>
> The stings, described in a city report released Wednesday, were
> conducted at seven gun shows in Tennessee, Ohio and Nevada. Those
> states are among the many that permit private unlicensed dealers,
> known as "occasional sellers," to sell weapons at gun shows without
> conducting background checks.
>
> to acquire guns and prevents law enforcement from being able to trace
> those weapons if they are used in crimes.
>
> Nine states, including New York, have passed laws to close the
> loophole, requiring background checks on at least all handgun
> purchases at gun shows. Mayor Michael Bloomberg has long campaigned
> for Congress to close the loophole, and for states to do it on their
> own if the federal government does not.
>
> Even in states that haven't closed the loophole, federal law bars
> "occasional sellers" from selling guns to people they have reason to
> believe would fail a background check.
>
> This is where the Bloomberg operation says 19 out of 30 sellers broke
> the law during the investigation, in which undercover buyers wore tiny
> cameras concealed in baseball hats and purses and audio recorders
> hidden in wristwatches.
>
> In each purchase, the investigator showed interest in buying a gun,
> agreed on a price and then indicated that he probably could not pass a
> background check. Most sellers allowed the purchases anyway,
> responding in some cases by saying, "I couldn't pass one either," or
> "I don't care," according to the city's report.
>
> Two assault rifles and 20 semiautomatic handguns were bought this way,
> the report said.
>
> The 11 dealers who refused sales showed they knew the law.
>
> "Once you say that, I'm kind of obligated not to," said one seller,
> according to the report. "I think that's what the rules are."
>
> "Fact is, you done told me too much," said another who refused. "I
> wouldn't sell one to you at all."
>
> The city has no legal authority over the dealers and is using its
> findings to make a point. A copy of the report is being sent to every
> member of Congress and the findings will be shared the Bureau of
> Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives.
>
> "The gun show loophole is a deadly serious problem, and this
> undercover operation exposes just how pervasive and serious it is,"
> the mayor said in a statement.
>
> The undercover operation took place from about May to August and its
> $1.5 million cost was paid by city taxpayers. The city hired a team of
> 40 private investigators from an outside firm to make the purchases.
>
> The sting comes three years after Bloomberg's administration conducted
> a similar operation focusing on illegal straw purchases at gun shops
> in Georgia, Ohio, Pennsylvania, South Carolina and Virginia that
> authorities believe were responsible for selling guns used in crimes
> in New York City. (A straw purchase is when one person fills out the
> paperwork and buys the gun for somebody else.)
>
> Bloomberg's administration brought a civil case against 27 gun dealers
> targeted in its 2006 investigation.
>
> appointed special master. One is out of business, two more are
> expected to be put under monitoring agreements and three were dropped
> from the suit. A final dealer settled with the city but the terms did
> not include a monitor.
>
> Investigators in this year's sting also attempted straw purchases at
> gun shows, and were successful 16 out of 17 times.
>
> The city said it was not planning civil action this time around.
So why is it a loophole?
Did private sales become illegal?
Too_Many_Tools
wrote:
> Too_Many_Tools <too_many_to...@yahoo.com> wrote innews:8349ee84-4722-4509...@m20g2000vbp.googlegroups.com:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Oct 8, 3:46 am, Gunner Asch <gun...@NOSPAMlightspeed.net> wrote:
> >> On Thu, 8 Oct 2009 00:26:11 -0700, "Roger Shoaf" <sh...@nospamsyix.com>
> >> wrote:
>
> >> >"Too_Many_Tools" <too_many_to...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> >> >news:0f670d77-b774-46a8...@j19g2000vbp.googlegroups.com..
> >> >. On Oct 7, 11:50 am, Too_Many_Tools <too_many_to...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> >> >This sting just confirms what everyone knows...the gun shows are
> >> >selling guns to people not qualified to own them.
>
> >> >I might take issue with the above on several grounds. "Everyone" is a
> >> >rather broad term. I do not think that "everyone" agrees with the
> >> >proposition that the concept of hindering the supply by making the
> >> >legitimate purchase of a firearm a royal pain in the but has the
> >> >desired effect.
>
> >> >Gun show sales should be illegal.
>
> >> >Again this is just an opinion, but I kind of suspect that what you are
> >> >forwarding is the opinion that no one but those that you approve of
> >> >should have guns.
>
> >> >There are many other routes to buy any firearm that you qualify for
> >> >and the gun show sellers can use those means. .
>
> >> There are many many other places for criminals to go and buy guns. And
> >> they use those sources. Hell..they even rent guns to criminals.
>
> >> Gunner
>
> >> GUNNER'S PRAYER:
> >> "God grant me the serenity to accept the people
> >> that don't need to get shot, the courage to shoot
> >> the people that need shooting and the wisdom to know the difference.
> >> And if need be, the skill to get it done before I have to reload."
>
>
> >> - Show quoted text -
>
> > down...gun shows.
>
> > With all your guns, why aren't your creditors paid?
>
> > TMT
>
> Why don't you tell us what the Dept of Justice and ATFE had to say? They seem
> to think that gunshows sales are a tiny percentage of "illegally acquired"
> guns.
>
> If it's such a problem, won't you please tell us factually how big the
> problem is? There is published data on this, are you smart enough to find it
> and honest enough to tell us what you found?
>
> Of course I do not expect an intelligent or rational answer, just more name
> calling and profanity and silliness.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
As usual Grey Ghost wants someone else to do his research.
What a lazy bastard.
And clipping the distribution list...trying to limit free speech.
Just like a little Nazi.
Looks like gun shows just took another step towards no gun sales
allowed.
Maybe Fox News could send their pimps and hos to gun shows to find the
real news.
TMT
Too_Many_Tools
> On Thu, 8 Oct 2009 06:19:17 -0700 (PDT), Too_Many_Tools
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >> >On Oct 7, 8:51 pm, tankfixer <paul.carr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> >> In article <c1ec22a7-3012-4aa4-a136-d340213b9705
> >> >> @k26g2000vbp.googlegroups.com>, too_many_to...@yahoo.com says...
>
> >> >> > By SARA KUGLER, Associated Press Writer Sara Kugler, Associated Press
> >> >> > Writer
>
> >> >> > gun shows in states that have not closed the "gun show loophole" and
> >> >> > found some vendors openly selling weapons to buyers who admitted they
> >> >> > couldn't pass background checks.
>
> >> >> > The stings, described in a city report released Wednesday, were
> >> >> > conducted at seven gun shows in Tennessee, Ohio and Nevada. Those
> >> >> > states are among the many that permit private unlicensed dealers,
> >> >> > known as "occasional sellers," to sell weapons at gun shows without
> >> >> > conducting background checks.
>
> >> >> Conducting investigations in other jurisdictions. without notifying said
> >> >> jurisdictions...
>
> >> >Stunts?
>
> >> >Conducting investigations that find illegal activities is the reason
> >> >for law enforcement.
>
>
> >> You do realize these "investigators" violated Federal law don't you?
> >> You, apparently, see no problem with this, so why do see a problem
> >> with casual remarks dropped at the time of sale?
>
>
> >> - Show quoted text -
>
> >law don't you?
> > You, apparently, see no problem with this, so why do see a problem
> > with casual remarks dropped at the time of sale?
>
> >TMT
>
> About 1% of crime guns recovered by police come from gun shows. Do you
> think 1% of the problem with them will be solved by having background
> all gun sales, but I really don't think it will do any good, it's just
> politically necessary for all the hand wringers out there. The CDC
> could find no evidence that any of the myriad laws we have in place
> have done any good. I also think not all felons should have there
> right to own a gun taken from them, just those with convictions for
> violent crimes.
>
> in my State that would outlaw the mail order sale of ammunition.
> Having failed to control millions of guns, they now want to try to
> control billions of rounds of ammunition. More ammunition is lost or
> discarded than is used in crime, but these idiots think they can
> control who gets it.
>
>
> - Show quoted text -
You make some good points.
In my opinion, reducing the problem by 1% (or whatever the amount is)
is progress.
You and I can still buy guns via other avenues.
Gun shows can still be gun shows...where one can see and handle guns,
to enjoy the company of others who share our interests...so I see no
impact to them.
The mail order ban for ammo is a tougher call...and tougher to enforce
legal sales.
I am a believer that all ammo should be microcoded to insure
traceability and criminal consequences for those who have uncoded
ammo.
TMT
Too_Many_Tools
dog.com> wrote:
> > "Too_Many_Tools" <too_many_to...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> >news:0f670d77-b774-46a8...@j19g2000vbp.googlegroups.com...
>
> >> selling guns to people not qualified to own them.
>
> actual information on who was convicted.
I suggest you email the author for that info.
Please post it when you receive it.
Thanks
TMT
Too_Many_Tools
> Too_Many_Tools wrote:
> > Strange how Fox News missed this life and death problem...
>
> > I guess they were too busy having their pimps and hos chasing Acorn...
>
> > In my opinon, all sales at gun shows should be illegal.
>
> > TMT
>
> only the government has guns. And you get to show your papers to anyone
> with a gun who asks.
>
> But if it makes you feel just a little more secure...
>
> I say you're an utter fool.
>
> <snip>
>
> --
> Cheers,
> Bama Brian
> Libertarian
> "Those who do not remember the past are condemned to repeat it."
> George Santayana
Show us where I say that.
Otherwise you are a liar.
TMT
Too_Many_Tools
> On Thu, 8 Oct 2009 06:18:08 -0700 (PDT), Too_Many_Tools
>
> <too_many_to...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >LOL..As I read the news article, the "investigators" were SOLD about
> >two dozen guns in a state they did not reside in .. .. ATF says that
> >is a major no-no.
>
> >The sellers are on the hook...as they should be.
>
> Try again fool. The BUYERS were in a conspiracy to break FEDERAL GUN
> LAWS. And Mayor Bloomy is the head of that conspiracy. I imagine
> Obammy will give him a pass. But when Sarah gets into office, I hope
> her first official act is to sign the warrant to TAKE HIM DOWN!
>
> Wonder why they didn't go to Virginia again?
Why don't you ask them?
Email the author and post the response here.
Thanks
TMT
Too_Many_Tools
@comcast.net> wrote:
> Bill Smith <quand...@newsguy.com> wrote innews:f53sc59bc1bfsm965...@4ax.com:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Thu, 8 Oct 2009 06:19:17 -0700 (PDT), Too_Many_Tools
>
> - Show quoted text -
You are wrong.
Reread your response and please correct it.
TMT
Too_Many_Tools
>
> - Show quoted text -
Honest citizens do not lie to get guns.
TMT
Too_Many_Tools
@comcast.net> wrote:
> "ArmyOfDorkness" <DorkAsKni...@hotmail.com> wrote innews:b5SdnZ08QbwyolPX...@giganews.com:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > "Zombywoof" <fishwi...@live.com> wrote in message
> >news:r48sc5l36kdqum1hf...@4ax.com...
> >> On Wed, 7 Oct 2009 17:19:39 -0500, "r wiley" <rawi...@southslope.net>
> >> wrote:
>
> >>>"Too_Many_Tools" <too_many_to...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> >>>news:c1ec22a7-3012-4aa4...@k26g2000vbp.googlegroups.com
> >>>...
>
> >>>> Bloomberg's administration brought a civil case against 27 gun
> >>>> dealers targeted in its 2006 investigation.
>
> >>>> The city said it was not planning civil action this time around.
>
> >>>It's time for transparency. How much did Bloomberg spend bringing
> >>>the civil cases and what did he win. The fact that Bloomberg is not
> >>>suing this time suggests the cost-benefit ratio went against
> >>>Bloomberg and his fellow civil rights opponents.
>
> >> In conducting this recent so-called "Sting Operation" Bloomberg is
> >> guilty of Conspiracy to break Federal Firearms laws. I'm waiting for
> >> him to be prosecuted.
>
> > Should the people who did the "Sting Operation" against ACORN be
> > prosecuted too? They were trying to smuggle in kids to use in
> > prostitution. Get a rope.
>
> Actually, no, they weren't. That was a claim, not an acuality. The
> folks doing Bloomberg's sting were not claiming to purchase firearms,
> they actually did it.
>
> --
> Sleep well tonight,
>
> RD (The Sandman)
>
> "Fear is the foundation of most governments."
>
>
> - Show quoted text -
How do you know that it was a claim?
TMT
Scout
> "Too_Many_Tools" <too_man...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:0f670d77-b774-46a8...@j19g2000vbp.googlegroups.com...
> selling guns to people not qualified to own them.
Please detail even one gun sold by the gun show.
I think the only thing the gun show sold were table space, and tickets.
Scout
Further, let's be totally honest. For the seller to be guilty of a straw
sale, the BUYER MUST have been engaged in a straw sale. Since they are being
PAID to do this, wouldn't that make it a conspiracy involving Mr. Bloomburg
to violate federal gun control laws?
Too_Many_Tools
> On Thu, 8 Oct 2009 14:38:31 -0500, "ArmyOfDorkness"
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >"Zombywoof" <fishwi...@live.com> wrote in message
> >news:r48sc5l36kdqum1hf...@4ax.com...
> >> On Wed, 7 Oct 2009 17:19:39 -0500, "r wiley" <rawi...@southslope.net>
> >> wrote:
>
> >>>"Too_Many_Tools" <too_many_to...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> >>>news:c1ec22a7-3012-4aa4...@k26g2000vbp.googlegroups.com...
>
> >>>> Bloomberg's administration brought a civil case against 27 gun dealers
> >>>> targeted in its 2006 investigation.
>
> >>>> The city said it was not planning civil action this time around.
>
> >>>It's time for transparency. How much did Bloomberg spend bringing
> >>>the civil cases and what did he win. The fact that Bloomberg is not
> >>>suing this time suggests the cost-benefit ratio went against Bloomberg
> >>>and his fellow civil rights opponents.
>
> >> In conducting this recent so-called "Sting Operation" Bloomberg is
> >> guilty of Conspiracy to break Federal Firearms laws. I'm waiting for
> >> him to be prosecuted.
>
> >Should the people who did the "Sting Operation" against ACORN be prosecuted
> >too? They were trying to smuggle in kids to use in prostitution. Get a rope.
>
> They were trying to smuggle in kids to use in prostitution? Really?
>
> Got cites, or is this something you pulled out of your fat ass?
>
> Gunner
>
> GUNNER'S PRAYER:
> "God grant me the serenity to accept the people
> that don't need to get shot, the courage to shoot
> the people that need shooting and the wisdom to know the difference.
> And if need be, the skill to get it done before I have to reload."
>
>
> - Show quoted text -
Do you have cites proving otherwise in your fat ass?
TMT
Strabo
> On Thu, 8 Oct 2009 06:19:17 -0700 (PDT), Too_Many_Tools
> <too_man...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
<snipped>
>> You do realize these "responsible gun show sellers" violated Federal
>> law don't you?
>> You, apparently, see no problem with this, so why do see a problem
>> with casual remarks dropped at the time of sale?
>>
>
> About 1% of crime guns recovered by police come from gun shows. Do you
> think 1% of the problem with them will be solved by having background
> all gun sales, but I really don't think it will do any good, it's just
> politically necessary for all the hand wringers out there. The CDC
> could find no evidence that any of the myriad laws we have in place
> have done any good. I also think not all felons should have there
> right to own a gun taken from them, just those with convictions for
> violent crimes.
>
> in my State that would outlaw the mail order sale of ammunition.
> Having failed to control millions of guns, they now want to try to
> control billions of rounds of ammunition. More ammunition is lost or
> discarded than is used in crime, but these idiots think they can
> control who gets it.
>
To us the 'gun show loophole' argument is nonsense. For Marxists,
the 'gun show loophole' is just another way to eliminate freedom.
Ed Huntress
"Zombywoof" <fish...@live.com> wrote in message
news:mv3tc55gcrtse642v...@4ax.com...
> On Thu, 8 Oct 2009 15:54:32 -0400, "Ed Huntress"
> <hunt...@optonline.net> wrote:
>
>>
>>"RD (The Sandman)" <rdsandman(spamlock)@comcast.net> wrote in message
>>news:Xns9C9E8183C...@216.196.97.130...
>>> "ArmyOfDorkness" <DorkAs...@hotmail.com> wrote in
>>> news:b5SdnZ08QbwyolPX...@giganews.com:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> "Zombywoof" <fish...@live.com> wrote in message
>>>> news:r48sc5l36kdqum1hf...@4ax.com...
>>>>> On Wed, 7 Oct 2009 17:19:39 -0500, "r wiley" <raw...@southslope.net>>>>>>>news:c1ec22a7-3012-4aa4...@k26g2000vbp.googlegroups.com
>>>>>>...
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Bloomberg's administration brought a civil case against 27 gun
>>>>>>> dealers targeted in its 2006 investigation.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The city said it was not planning civil action this time around.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>It's time for transparency. How much did Bloomberg spend bringing
>>>>>>the civil cases and what did he win. The fact that Bloomberg is not
>>>>>>suing this time suggests the cost-benefit ratio went against
>>>>>>Bloomberg and his fellow civil rights opponents.
>>>>>>
>>>>> In conducting this recent so-called "Sting Operation" Bloomberg is
>>>>> guilty of Conspiracy to break Federal Firearms laws. I'm waiting for
>>>>> him to be prosecuted.
>>>>
>>>> Should the people who did the "Sting Operation" against ACORN be
>>>> prosecuted too? They were trying to smuggle in kids to use in
>>>> prostitution. Get a rope.
>>>
>>> folks doing Bloomberg's sting were not claiming to purchase firearms,
>>> they actually did it.
>>
>>knowledge, in Maryland, *is* a crime.
>>
>>For those who have commented here that no crime is committed until the gun
>>is actually transferred to an illegal purchaser -- no, that's not the
>>case.
>>Read the law. Intent is enough.
>>
>>"Intent" usually is part of the charge in actual cases. But it's
>>retroactive, because it's very hard to prosecute intent before the fact of
>>transfer. It may have been charged without an actual transfer in some
>>cases,
>>but once a gun used by a person who can't purchase legally is tracked back
>>to the purchaser, intent is charged along with the actual transfer.
>>
>>It's actually easier to defend against the actual transfer than the
>>"intent"
>>charge.
>>
> Perhaps true, but there is also the issue of a Criminal Conspiracy,
> possible Fraud, and the breaking of each States local Firearms Laws.
> --
If you're referring to the NYPD operation, none of the above applies. If it
did, you'd be hearing about it from the NRA and pro-gun organizations
everywhere. All they're doing is grumbling and cooking up antagonistic ads:
If there was any substance to your claims, they'd be taking him to court.
And they conducted a similar operation three years ago, bringing suit
against 27 gun dealers. 20 of them now have court-appointed monitors. One
sued NYC; his case, brought in Georgia, was just dismissed.
If you think that the NYPD would conduct a criminal operation like you
describe, you're living in a delusional bubble, Zomby. This is an ordinary
sting, and NYC legal officials weren't trying to bring criminal charges
against any of the dealers.
--
Ed Huntress
Ed Huntress
> On Thu, 8 Oct 2009 16:58:05 -0400, "Ed Huntress"
> <hunt...@optonline.net> wrote:
>
>>
>>"RD (The Sandman)" <rdsandman(spamlock)@comcast.net> wrote in message
>>> "Ed Huntress" <hunt...@optonline.net> wrote in
>>> news:4ace4376$0$31274$607e...@cv.net:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> "RD (The Sandman)" <rdsandman(spamlock)@comcast.net> wrote in message
>>>> news:Xns9C9E8183C...@216.196.97.130...
>>>>> "ArmyOfDorkness" <DorkAs...@hotmail.com> wrote in
>>>>> news:b5SdnZ08QbwyolPX...@giganews.com:
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Zombywoof" <fish...@live.com> wrote in message
>>>>>> news:r48sc5l36kdqum1hf...@4ax.com...
>>>>>>> On Wed, 7 Oct 2009 17:19:39 -0500, "r wiley"
>>>>>>> <raw...@southslope.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>"Too_Many_Tools" <too_man...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>>>>>>>>news:c1ec22a7-3012-4aa4...@k26g2000vbp.googlegroups.c
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Bloomberg's administration brought a civil case against 27 gun
>>>>>>>>> dealers targeted in its 2006 investigation.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The city said it was not planning civil action this time around.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>It's time for transparency. How much did Bloomberg spend bringing
>>>>>>>>the civil cases and what did he win. The fact that Bloomberg is
>>>>>>>>not suing this time suggests the cost-benefit ratio went against
>>>>>>>>Bloomberg and his fellow civil rights opponents.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In conducting this recent so-called "Sting Operation" Bloomberg is
>>>>>>> guilty of Conspiracy to break Federal Firearms laws. I'm waiting
>>>>>>> for him to be prosecuted.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Should the people who did the "Sting Operation" against ACORN be
>>>>>> prosecuted too? They were trying to smuggle in kids to use in
>>>>>> prostitution. Get a rope.
>>>>>
>>>>> Actually, no, they weren't. That was a claim, not an acuality. The
>>>>> folks doing Bloomberg's sting were not claiming to purchase firearms,
>>>>> they actually did it.
>>>>
>>>> But purchasing firearms is not a crime.
>>>
>>
>>Again, purchasing them is not a crime. In the case of this sting, they
>>used
>>legal "strawmen," and there was no intent to sell to disqualified buyers.
>>So
>>they were legal sales.
>>
>>If they weren't, don't you think the NRA and other gun organizations would
>>be beating the drums to arrest them? Now'll have to find something else to
>>beat.
>>
>>>
>>>> Videotaping someone without
>>>> their knowledge, in Maryland, *is* a crime.
>>>
>>> place, and the taping was done in a public office where there really is
>>> no expectation of privacy. It is like video taping police officers
>>> during an arrest.
>>
>>As I said to Strabo, I hope you don't try to defend yourself in court. You
>>could go in with a traffic ticket, and come out with a three-year jail
>>sentence. <g>
>>
>>The Maryland law is clear. It's similar to wiretap laws in many states
>>(but
>>not in my state, and not under federal law), where both parties have to
>>know
>>they're being taped. That applies even if it's a conference call between
>>unknown people at two different companies.
>>
>>>
>>>> For those who have commented here that no crime is committed until the
>>>> gun is actually transferred to an illegal purchaser -- no, that's not
>>>> the case. Read the law. Intent is enough.
>>>
>>>
>>>> "Intent" usually is part of the charge in actual cases. But it's
>>>> retroactive, because it's very hard to prosecute intent before the
>>>> fact of transfer. It may have been charged without an actual transfer
>>>> in some cases, but once a gun used by a person who can't purchase
>>>> legally is tracked back to the purchaser, intent is charged along with
>>>> the actual transfer.
>>>>
>>>> It's actually easier to defend against the actual transfer than the
>>>> "intent" charge.
>>>
>>> difficult to prove intent. ;)
>>
>>That's why strawman purchases are such a big loophole. They can go on at a
>>gun show, or between private parties, or even at a retail store. It's very
>>hard to stop. And that's why Bloomberg, etc. are using it as an angle for
>>more gun control.
>>
>>But NYC police didn't break any laws. If they did, the charges would be
>>piling up, the NRA would be all over the evening news with it, and fur
>>would
>>be flying.
>>
> We are just at the beginning of the story, who knows what each state
> involved may or may not be planning to do. I think there is a fairly
> strong case to be made for a Conspiracy Charge and then a misuse of
> public funds within NYC itself, although that might not be illegal
> there as it is probably an expected activity.
There is no such case. And this is just a repeat of the same thing that they
did three years ago.
--
Ed Huntress
Ed Huntress
> On Thu, 8 Oct 2009 12:53:24 -0500, "RM v2.0" <Bl...@spamsux.com> wrote:
>
>>> You do realize you're an ignorant stupid asshole farting asinine
>>> nonsense
>>> about that which you know entirely not shit, don't you, counselor
>>> doofus?
>>>
>>> No? Well, then, ignorant maroon, let's try a little object lesson...
>>>
>>> Precisely what law is it you stupidly think was broken?
>>>
>>> Please be specific, explain in detail why you believe such utter horse
>>> shit
>>> and provide citations to the statute(s) you foolishly believe back up
>>> your
>>> absurd assumption. Times are tough and we need the laughs...
>>>
>>> Jaybus Freaking Crisco, how fucking STUPID must one be before one thinks
>>> licensed law enforcement officers can't investigate and prosecute
>>> flagrant
>>> violations law? Seriously, where the FUCK do you get THAT kind of rock
>>> hard,
>>> super dense, singularity-type STUPIDITY!?
>>>
>>> FYI, you stupid fuck, it's no more illegal than undercover officers
>>> making
>>> a
>>> drug buy. Duh fucking duh, duh, duh, ignorant luser...
>>>
>>> ---
>>> Welcome to reality. Enjoy your visit. Slow thinkers keep right.
>>> ------
>>> Why are so many not smart enough to know they're not smart enough?
>>>
>> Wow. Serious issues here. BTW the officers were out of their jurisdiction
>>and violated federal law, along with the dealers.
>>
> Mien Gott I've no idea how many times I'm going to have to make this
> point, but they were not Sworn LEO's. They were "PRIVATE"
> Investigators under the employ of Bloomburg using public monies to
> break the laws of numerous states & Federal Firearms Laws.
Oh, this is getting ridiculous. Tell us, what specific federal firearms laws
were broken? If you can't answer that, just tell us about ONE state law that
was broken.
You're blowing smoke.
--
Ed Huntress
Scout
> On Thu, 8 Oct 2009 15:54:32 -0400, "Ed Huntress"
> <hunt...@optonline.net> wrote:
>
>>
>> "RD (The Sandman)" <rdsandman(spamlock)@comcast.net> wrote in message
>>> "ArmyOfDorkness" <DorkAs...@hotmail.com> wrote in
>>> news:b5SdnZ08QbwyolPX...@giganews.com:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> On Wed, 7 Oct 2009 17:19:39 -0500, "r wiley"
>>>>> <raw...@southslope.net> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Too_Many_Tools" <too_man...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>>>>>> news:c1ec22a7-3012-4aa4...@k26g2000vbp.googlegroups.com
>>>>>> ...
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Bloomberg's administration brought a civil case against 27 gun
>>>>>>> dealers targeted in its 2006 investigation.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The city said it was not planning civil action this time around.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It's time for transparency. How much did Bloomberg spend
>>>>>> bringing the civil cases and what did he win. The fact that
>>>>>> Bloomberg is not suing this time suggests the cost-benefit ratio
>>>>>> went against Bloomberg and his fellow civil rights opponents.
>>>>>>
>>>>> In conducting this recent so-called "Sting Operation" Bloomberg
>>>>> is guilty of Conspiracy to break Federal Firearms laws. I'm
>>>>> waiting for him to be prosecuted.
>>>>
>>>> Should the people who did the "Sting Operation" against ACORN be
>>>> prosecuted too? They were trying to smuggle in kids to use in
>>>> prostitution. Get a rope.
>>>
>>> Actually, no, they weren't. That was a claim, not an acuality. The
>>> folks doing Bloomberg's sting were not claiming to purchase
>>> firearms, they actually did it.
>>
>> their knowledge, in Maryland, *is* a crime.
>>
>> the gun is actually transferred to an illegal purchaser -- no,
>> that's not the case. Read the law. Intent is enough.
>>
>> retroactive, because it's very hard to prosecute intent before the
>> fact of transfer. It may have been charged without an actual
>> transfer in some cases, but once a gun used by a person who can't
>> purchase legally is tracked back to the purchaser, intent is charged
>> along with the actual transfer.
>>
>> It's actually easier to defend against the actual transfer than the
>> "intent" charge.
>>
> possible Fraud, and the breaking of each States local Firearms Laws.
Hmmm.... I wonder. If these PI were from NY, then wouldn't there also be a
possible charge of illegally buying firearms across state lines?
I will give Bloomburg the benefit of the doubt and assume he hired his PI's
in each state to be 'investigated'.
Bama Brian
> On Thu, 8 Oct 2009 06:18:08 -0700 (PDT), Too_Many_Tools
> <too_man...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> LOL..As I read the news article, the "investigators" were SOLD about
>> two dozen guns in a state they did not reside in .. .. ATF says that
>> is a major no-no.
>>
>> The sellers are on the hook...as they should be.
>
>
> Try again fool. The BUYERS were in a conspiracy to break FEDERAL GUN
> LAWS. And Mayor Bloomy is the head of that conspiracy. I imagine
> Obammy will give him a pass. But when Sarah gets into office, I hope
> her first official act is to sign the warrant to TAKE HIM DOWN!
>
> Wonder why they didn't go to Virginia again?
They wouldn't go back to Georgia because one of the legitimate dealers
they set up fought back and is suing Bloomberg. Virginia I don't know
about.
--
Cheers,
Bama Brian
Libertarian
"Those who do not remember the past are condemned to repeat it."
George Santayana
Bama Brian
> On Oct 8, 11:14 am, Beam Me Up Scotty <Then-Destroy-Everyth...@Talk-n->>> news:0f670d77-b774-46a8...@j19g2000vbp.googlegroups.com...
>>>> This sting just confirms what everyone knows...the gun shows are
>>>> selling guns to people not qualified to own them.
>> actual information on who was convicted.
>
> I suggest you email the author for that info.
>
> Please post it when you receive it.
I've looked for the author's email address. Can't find it. How about
you post it for us, since you're such a fount of knowledge?
Bama Brian
> On Oct 8, 11:15 am, Bama Brian <claypoolbr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Too_Many_Tools wrote:
>>> Strange how Fox News missed this life and death problem...
>>> I guess they were too busy having their pimps and hos chasing Acorn...
>>> In my opinon, all sales at gun shows should be illegal.
>>> TMT
>> Hey, you keep saying you'd love to live in a police state. That's where
>> only the government has guns. And you get to show your papers to anyone
>> with a gun who asks.
>>
>> But if it makes you feel just a little more secure...
>>
>> I say you're an utter fool.
>>
>> <snip>
>>
>> --
>> Cheers,
>> Bama Brian
>> Libertarian
>> "Those who do not remember the past are condemned to repeat it."
>> George Santayana
>
>
> Otherwise you are a liar.
> > > In my opinon, all sales at gun shows should be illegal.
Only someone who wants to live in a tyranny would say that.
I say you're an utter fool.
Bama Brian
> On Oct 8, 12:05 pm, Fiftycal <n...@abcnnbcbs.com> wrote:
>> On Thu, 8 Oct 2009 06:18:08 -0700 (PDT), Too_Many_Tools
>>
>>> LOL..As I read the news article, the "investigators" were SOLD about
>>> two dozen guns in a state they did not reside in .. .. ATF says that
>>> is a major no-no.
>>> The sellers are on the hook...as they should be.
>> Try again fool. The BUYERS were in a conspiracy to break FEDERAL GUN
>> LAWS. And Mayor Bloomy is the head of that conspiracy. I imagine
>> Obammy will give him a pass. But when Sarah gets into office, I hope
>> her first official act is to sign the warrant to TAKE HIM DOWN!
>>
>> Wonder why they didn't go to Virginia again?
>
>
> Email the author and post the response here.
Provide the author's email address. You're the expert on this article.
Bama Brian
> On Oct 8, 1:57 pm, j...@ix.netcom.com wrote:
>> On Wed, 7 Oct 2009 20:06:24 -0700 (PDT), Too_Many_Tools
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> <too_many_to...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>> On Oct 7, 6:30 pm, "SteveB" <oldf...@depends.com> wrote:
>>>> "PLMerite" <stock...@smokebombhill.com> wrote in message
>>>> news:wq7zm.6268$uO....@en-nntp-09.dc1.easynews.com...
>>>>> If a guy is too dangerous to have a firearm, why is he allowed to walk the
>>>>> street ?
>>>> Question me this, Batman. If a criminal can buy a gun in half an hour on
>>>> the street, what's all the falderal about gun shows? I really don't think
>>>> criminals go to gun shows to buy their guns.
>>>> Steve
>>> Why are you making excuses for illegal selling?
>>> Are you a gun show dealer?
>>> TMT
>> Why do you want to have guns removed from honest citizens? Do you
>> make your living taking that which doesn't belong to you and are
>> afraid that someone might use their gun to stop you? - Hide quoted text -
>>
>> - Show quoted text -
>
Heh! According to that article, the 'honest' citizens said they
probably couldn't pass a background check. Right up front, they were
apparently honest.
As it happens, though, the only people at the shows who broke the law
were the private investigators who have no police authority, and in any
case, were out of their home state committing what actually are federal
felonies - and they knew it.
The private sellers are under no obligation to run a NICS check, and
have no obligation to even ask for ID from a potential purchaser. They
are selling the firearm within their home state, and that's quite legal
for the states involved. They could have used a newspaper ad, or set up
a stall at a flea market - but a gun show is most likely to have buyers.
Dealers who have an FFL run NICS checks on everyone who buys from them.
It's the law. They follow the law. And just FYI, TMT, the ATF
presence is quite heavy in gun shows. But even the ATF has learned not
to try illegal entrapment schemes at gun shows.
The real message in the article starts when Ms Kugler combines the words
"private unlicensed dealers" in the third sentence, thereby setting the
stage to ignore that these "private unlicensed dealers" were simply
private citizens. IOW, Ms Kugler deliberately sets up a big lie,
implying that the private citizens should have had a responsibility to
follow the FFL dealer regulation since they were some sort of arms "dealer".
So Ms Kugel, is, bluntly, an outright liar of the worst sort. She is
one of those who want to believe that the ends will justify any sort of
lying or wrong-doing, even if the ends themselves are a form of tyranny.
If Bloomberg is reduced to this sort of transparent fear-mongering, it's
time someone examined him for Alzheimers.
r wiley
On Oct 8, 8:14 am, "r wiley" <rawi...@southslope.net> wrote:
>> "Too_Many_Tools" <too_many_to...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>>
>> news:0f670d77-b774-46a8...@j19g2000vbp.googlegroups.com...
>>
>> > This sting just confirms what everyone knows...the gun shows are
>> > selling guns to people not qualified to own them.
>>
>> a qualified gun owner. Some of the buyers may have been narcs
>> who falsely alleged that they were going to resell the guns, but they
>> themselves were qualified buyers. Read your own post.
>>
>> rw
>
> Oh yes it does.
>
> TMT
So your premise is that one or more of Bloomberg's narcs is not eligibe to
own a gun. That must mean you can cite charges against the sellers. I'll
look forward to seeing that.
rw
Too_Many_Tools
> "RD (The Sandman)" <rdsandman(spamlock)@comcast.net> wrote in messagenews:Xns9C9E8183C...@216.196.97.130...
>
>
>
>
>
> >news:b5SdnZ08QbwyolPX...@giganews.com:
>
> >> "Zombywoof" <fishwi...@live.com> wrote in message
> >>news:r48sc5l36kdqum1hf...@4ax.com...
> >>> On Wed, 7 Oct 2009 17:19:39 -0500, "r wiley" <rawi...@southslope.net>
> Ed Huntress- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
It is much easier to prosecute when you have a video.
TMT
Strabo
> "Zombywoof" <fish...@live.com> wrote in message
> news:bd5tc5hch2vj1kfte...@4ax.com...
>> On Thu, 8 Oct 2009 12:53:24 -0500, "RM v2.0" <Bl...@spamsux.com> wrote:
>>
>> Mien Gott I've no idea how many times I'm going to have to make this
>> point, but they were not Sworn LEO's. They were "PRIVATE"
>> Investigators under the employ of Bloomburg using public monies to
>> break the laws of numerous states & Federal Firearms Laws.
>
> Oh, this is getting ridiculous. Tell us, what specific federal firearms laws
> were broken? If you can't answer that, just tell us about ONE state law that
> was broken.
>
> You're blowing smoke.
>
Yep. Another example of institutional crime under the color of law.
tankfixer
says...
I'm curious why you are comfortable with NYC conducting investigations
outside their jurisdiction ?
Too_Many_Tools
> On Oct 7, 12:50 pm, Too_Many_Tools <too_many_to...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > Strange how Fox News missed this life and death problem...
>
> > I guess they were too busy having their pimps and hos chasing Acorn...
>
> > In my opinon, all sales at gun shows should be illegal.
>
> > TMT
>
> > By SARA KUGLER, Associated Press Writer Sara Kugler, Associated Press
> > Writer
>
> > NEW YORK – Investigators hired by New York City conducted stings at
> > gun shows in states that have not closed the "gun show loophole" and
> > found some vendors openly selling weapons to buyers who admitted they
> > couldn't pass background checks.
>
> > The stings, described in a city report released Wednesday, were
> > conducted at seven gun shows in Tennessee, Ohio and Nevada. Those
> > states are among the many that permit private unlicensed dealers,
> > known as "occasional sellers," to sell weapons at gun shows without
> > conducting background checks.
>
> > Gun-control advocates say the loophole makes it easier for criminals
> > to acquire guns and prevents law enforcement from being able to trace
> > those weapons if they are used in crimes.
>
> > Nine states, including New York, have passed laws to close the
> > loophole, requiring background checks on at least all handgun
> > purchases at gun shows. Mayor Michael Bloomberg has long campaigned
> > for Congress to close the loophole, and for states to do it on their
> > own if the federal government does not.
>
> > Even in states that haven't closed the loophole, federal law bars
> > "occasional sellers" from selling guns to people they have reason to
> > believe would fail a background check.
>
> > This is where the Bloomberg operation says 19 out of 30 sellers broke
> > the law during the investigation, in which undercover buyers wore tiny
> > cameras concealed in baseball hats and purses and audio recorders
> > hidden in wristwatches.
>
> > In each purchase, the investigator showed interest in buying a gun,
> > agreed on a price and then indicated that he probably could not pass a
> > background check. Most sellers allowed the purchases anyway,
> > responding in some cases by saying, "I couldn't pass one either," or
> > "I don't care," according to the city's report.
>
> > Two assault rifles and 20 semiautomatic handguns were bought this way,
> > the report said.
>
> > The 11 dealers who refused sales showed they knew the law.
>
> > "Once you say that, I'm kind of obligated not to," said one seller,
> > according to the report. "I think that's what the rules are."
>
> > "Fact is, you done told me too much," said another who refused. "I
> > wouldn't sell one to you at all."
>
> > The city has no legal authority over the dealers and is using its
> > findings to make a point. A copy of the report is being sent to every
> > member of Congress and the findings will be shared the Bureau of
> > Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives.
>
> > "The gun show loophole is a deadly serious problem, and this
> > undercover operation exposes just how pervasive and serious it is,"
> > the mayor said in a statement.
>
> > The undercover operation took place from about May to August and its
> > $1.5 million cost was paid by city taxpayers. The city hired a team of
> > 40 private investigators from an outside firm to make the purchases.
>
> > The sting comes three years after Bloomberg's administration conducted
> > a similar operation focusing on illegal straw purchases at gun shops
> > in Georgia, Ohio, Pennsylvania, South Carolina and Virginia that
> > authorities believe were responsible for selling guns used in crimes
> > in New York City. (A straw purchase is when one person fills out the
> > paperwork and buys the gun for somebody else.)
>
> > Bloomberg's administration brought a civil case against 27 gun dealers
> > targeted in its 2006 investigation.
>
> > appointed special master. One is out of business, two more are
> > expected to be put under monitoring agreements and three were dropped
> > from the suit. A final dealer settled with the city but the terms did
> > not include a monitor.
>
> > Investigators in this year's sting also attempted straw purchases at
> > gun shows, and were successful 16 out of 17 times.
>
> > The city said it was not planning civil action this time around.
>
>
> Did private sales become illegal?- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
Go ask the author.
Wingers always want someone else to do their work.
TMT
tankfixer
@p9g2000vbl.googlegroups.com>, too_man...@yahoo.com says...
>
> On Oct 8, 1:57 pm, j...@ix.netcom.com wrote:
> > On Wed, 7 Oct 2009 20:06:24 -0700 (PDT), Too_Many_Tools
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > <too_many_to...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > >On Oct 7, 6:30 pm, "SteveB" <oldf...@depends.com> wrote:
> > >> "PLMerite" <stock...@smokebombhill.com> wrote in message
> >
> > >>news:wq7zm.6268$uO....@en-nntp-09.dc1.easynews.com...
> >
> > >> > If a guy is too dangerous to have a firearm, why is he allowed to walk the
> > >> > street ?
> >
> > >> Question me this, Batman. If a criminal can buy a gun in half an hour on
> > >> the street, what's all the falderal about gun shows? I really don't think
> > >> criminals go to gun shows to buy their guns.
> >
> > >> Steve
> >
> > >Why are you making excuses for illegal selling?
> >
> > >Are you a gun show dealer?
> >
> > >TMT
> >
> > Why do you want to have guns removed from honest citizens? Do you
> > make your living taking that which doesn't belong to you and are
> >
> > - Show quoted text -
>
>
But the cops did..
Too_Many_Tools
> On Thu, 8 Oct 2009 16:58:05 -0400, "Ed Huntress"
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >"RD (The Sandman)" <rdsandman(spamlock)@comcast.net> wrote in message
> >> "Ed Huntress" <huntre...@optonline.net> wrote in
> >>news:4ace4376$0$31274$607e...@cv.net:
>
> >>> "RD (The Sandman)" <rdsandman(spamlock)@comcast.net> wrote in message
> >>>news:Xns9C9E8183C...@216.196.97.130...
> >>>>news:b5SdnZ08QbwyolPX...@giganews.com:
>
> >>>>> "Zombywoof" <fishwi...@live.com> wrote in message
> >>>>>news:r48sc5l36kdqum1hf...@4ax.com...
> >>>>>> On Wed, 7 Oct 2009 17:19:39 -0500, "r wiley"
>
> >>>>>>>"Too_Many_Tools" <too_many_to...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> >>>>>>>news:c1ec22a7-3012-4aa4...@k26g2000vbp.googlegroups.c
> >>>>>>>om ...
>
> >>>>>>>> dealers targeted in its 2006 investigation.
>
>
> >>>>>>>the civil cases and what did he win. The fact that Bloomberg is
> >>>>>>>not suing this time suggests the cost-benefit ratio went against
> >>>>>>>Bloomberg and his fellow civil rights opponents.
>
> >>>>>> In conducting this recent so-called "Sting Operation" Bloomberg is
> >>>>>> guilty of Conspiracy to break Federal Firearms laws. I'm waiting
> >>>>>> for him to be prosecuted.
>
> >>>>> Should the people who did the "Sting Operation" against ACORN be
> >>>>> prosecuted too? They were trying to smuggle in kids to use in
> >>>>> prostitution. Get a rope.
>
> >>>> Actually, no, they weren't. That was a claim, not an acuality. The
> >>>> folks doing Bloomberg's sting were not claiming to purchase firearms,
> >>>> they actually did it.
>
> >>> But purchasing firearms is not a crime.
>
>
> >Again, purchasing them is not a crime. In the case of this sting, they used
> >legal "strawmen," and there was no intent to sell to disqualified buyers. So
> >they were legal sales.
>
> >If they weren't, don't you think the NRA and other gun organizations would
> >be beating the drums to arrest them? Now'll have to find something else to
> >beat.
>
> >>> their knowledge, in Maryland, *is* a crime.
>
> >> place, and the taping was done in a public office where there really is
> >> no expectation of privacy. It is like video taping police officers
> >> during an arrest.
>
> >As I said to Strabo, I hope you don't try to defend yourself in court. You
> >could go in with a traffic ticket, and come out with a three-year jail
> >sentence. <g>
>
> >The Maryland law is clear. It's similar to wiretap laws in many states (but
> >not in my state, and not under federal law), where both parties have to know
> >they're being taped. That applies even if it's a conference call between
> >unknown people at two different companies.
>
> >>> gun is actually transferred to an illegal purchaser -- no, that's not
> >>> the case. Read the law. Intent is enough.
>
>
> >>> retroactive, because it's very hard to prosecute intent before the
> >>> fact of transfer. It may have been charged without an actual transfer
> >>> in some cases, but once a gun used by a person who can't purchase
> >>> legally is tracked back to the purchaser, intent is charged along with
> >>> the actual transfer.
>
> >>> It's actually easier to defend against the actual transfer than the
> >>> "intent" charge.
>
> >> difficult to prove intent. ;)
>
> >That's why strawman purchases are such a big loophole. They can go on at a
> >gun show, or between private parties, or even at a retail store. It's very
> >hard to stop. And that's why Bloomberg, etc. are using it as an angle for
> >more gun control.
>
> >But NYC police didn't break any laws. If they did, the charges would be
> >piling up, the NRA would be all over the evening news with it, and fur would
> >be flying.
>
> We are just at the beginning of the story, who knows what each state
> involved may or may not be planning to do. I think there is a fairly
> strong case to be made for a Conspiracy Charge and then a misuse of
> public funds within NYC itself, although that might not be illegal
> there as it is probably an expected activity.
>
> "Gustatus Similis Pullus"- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
I agree that the gun sellers and the gun shows will be held
responsible.
TMT
Beam Me Up Scotty
> On Oct 8, 8:25 pm, Zombywoof <fishwi...@live.com> wrote:
>> On Thu, 8 Oct 2009 16:58:05 -0400, "Ed Huntress"
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> <huntre...@optonline.net> wrote:
>>
>>> "RD (The Sandman)" <rdsandman(spamlock)@comcast.net> wrote in message
>>> news:Xns9C9E87D66...@216.196.97.130...
>>>> "Ed Huntress" <huntre...@optonline.net> wrote in
>>>> news:4ace4376$0$31274$607e...@cv.net:
>>>>> "RD (The Sandman)" <rdsandman(spamlock)@comcast.net> wrote in message
>>>>> news:Xns9C9E8183C...@216.196.97.130...
>>>>>> "ArmyOfDorkness" <DorkAsKni...@hotmail.com> wrote in
>>>>>> news:b5SdnZ08QbwyolPX...@giganews.com:
>>>>>>> "Zombywoof" <fishwi...@live.com> wrote in message
>>>>>>> news:r48sc5l36kdqum1hf...@4ax.com...
>>>>>>>> On Wed, 7 Oct 2009 17:19:39 -0500, "r wiley"
>>>>>>>> <rawi...@southslope.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> "Too_Many_Tools" <too_many_to...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>>>>>>>>> om ...
>>>>>>>>>> Bloomberg's administration brought a civil case against 27 gun
>>>>>>>>>> dealers targeted in its 2006 investigation.
>>>>>>>>>> The city said it was not planning civil action this time around.
>>>>>>>>> It's time for transparency. How much did Bloomberg spend bringing
>>>>>>>>> the civil cases and what did he win. The fact that Bloomberg is
>>>>>>>>> not suing this time suggests the cost-benefit ratio went against
>>>>>>>>> Bloomberg and his fellow civil rights opponents.
>>>>>>>> In conducting this recent so-called "Sting Operation" Bloomberg is
>>>>>>>> guilty of Conspiracy to break Federal Firearms laws. I'm waiting
>>>>>>>> for him to be prosecuted.
>>>>>>> Should the people who did the "Sting Operation" against ACORN be
>>>>>>> prosecuted too? They were trying to smuggle in kids to use in
>>>>>>> prostitution. Get a rope.
>>>>>> Actually, no, they weren't. That was a claim, not an acuality. The
>>>>>> folks doing Bloomberg's sting were not claiming to purchase firearms,
>>>>>> they actually did it.
>>>>> But purchasing firearms is not a crime.
>>>> Depends on how and who is purchasing them.
>>> Again, purchasing them is not a crime. In the case of this sting, they used
You'd agree to banning doors because real men(not you) might get their
dick slammed in the door by accident.
--
*BE VERY CONCERNED*
If it looks like dog shit and smells like dog shit.... You can call it
ice cream, but I still don't want any of it.
- Talk-n-Dog -
Beam Me Up Scotty
> On Oct 8, 6:44 pm, "HH&C" <almostcutmyhairto...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> On Oct 7, 12:50 pm, Too_Many_Tools <too_many_to...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> Strange how Fox News missed this life and death problem...
>>> I guess they were too busy having their pimps and hos chasing Acorn...
>>> In my opinon, all sales at gun shows should be illegal.
>>> TMT
>>> NYC undercover stings expose 'gun show loophole'
>>> By SARA KUGLER, Associated Press Writer Sara Kugler, Associated Press
>>> Writer
So that's why NOTHING gets done, Liberals just never do anything.
Republicans ask and Liberals can't and don't do any of it.
Beam Me Up Scotty
Isn't it smarter to steal a gun, maybe from a cops house.... where there
is no paper trail, since either way you are breaking the gun laws.
--
*BE VERY CONCERNED*
When they took the Fourth Amendment,
I was quiet because I did not deal drugs.
.
When they took the Sixth Amendment,
I was quiet because I was innocent.
.
When they took the Second Amendment,
I was quiet because I did not own a gun.
.
Now they've taken the First Amendment,
and I can say nothing about it.
.
Think about it all you lefties.