Hitchens on Free Speech

[jillery]

<https://whyevolutionistrue.wordpress.com/2017/12/15/friday-hili-dialogue-182/>

<https://tinyurl.com/y8sv7ut2>

To commemorate the anniversary of Christopher Hitchen's death on
December 15, 2011, and more importantly his life, Jerry Coyne posted
this Youtube video:

<https://youtu.be/4Z2uzEM0ugY>

The following is a transcription from the video, starting @1:45, where
Hitchens summarizes in one go some of the classic texts of John
Milton, Thomas Paine and John Stuart Mills:

********************************************
It's not just the right of the person who speaks to be heard. It is
the right of everyone in the audience to listen, and to hear. And
every time you silence somebody, you make yourself a prisoner of your
own action, because you deny yourself the right to hear something. In
other words, your own right to hear and be exposed is as much involved
in all these cases as is the right of the other to voice his or her
view.
*********************************************

My rap is: I cede to no body, neither individually nor collectively,
the right to decide for me what I might say, and to whom I might
listen. These rights are necessarily entangled; to limit one
automatically curtails the other.

--
I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.

Evelyn Beatrice Hall
Attributed to Voltaire

[JTEM is my hero]

jillery wrote:

> To commemorate the anniversary of Christopher Hitchen's death on

Hitchens was a yellow journalist. The man
was shameless. I remember watching him on
Bill Maher's show, engaging in the worst,
most infantile behavior, internationally
(and quite obviously) coughing when someone
he disagreed with spoke and otherwise trying
to obstruct.

...in one case it was a Scottish
politician who was AGAINST invading Iraq.

Hitchens was a frigging Neocon. His judgment
was *That* poor!

(Incorrectly) Self-identified "atheists" love
him because he was willing to do their thinking
for them, leaving behind works that nobody here
ever quotes in an argument...

Going back still further, I recall an online
argument between a man who was actually inside
one of Mother Teresa's hospitals and a bunch
of idiots who read one of Hitchen's books and
decided that it was inerrant gospel...

Hitchens is one of those people whom, though
thoroughly unlikable, I mostly disliked due
to the quality & gullibility of his fans.

James Randi is similar, though I have absolutely
nothing against Randi himself (unlike Hitchens).
I have frequently spoken ill of Randi, but
really because of the quality (lack their of)
of his followers -- THE RESULTS of his work, not
the work itself, his intentions.

...Hitchens fails in a test of both his works
and his intentions.

DON'T MISTAKEN GOOD WRITING FOR INSIGHT!

A good writer can present any idea, no
matter how lame, in a positive way... make
it a good read... entertaining... maybe
even "Convincing."

In the case of so-called "Atheists,"
Hitchens never even had to be that good.
He was preaching to the converted.









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[jillery]

On Fri, 15 Dec 2017 23:42:28 -0800 (PST), JTEM is my hero
<jte...@gmail.com> wrote:

> jillery wrote:
>
>> To commemorate the anniversary of Christopher Hitchen's death on
>
>Hitchens was a yellow journalist. The man
>was shameless.

Your ad hominem handwaving shows who is the shameless yellow
journalist here. Hitchens would be among the first to defend your
right to express your opinions, if only so he could return the favor
and tell you what a self-indulgent infant you are.

[JTEM is my hero]

jillery wrote:

> Your ad hominem

It's not ad hominem, you fucking idiot. "Ad
Hominem" is an insult as an argument -- instead
of an argument. Hitchens really was a yellow
journalist. He really did preach to the
converted. He really did engage in immature
antics on TV. And you really are a fucking
idiot who doesn't know what is and is not ad
hominem.

you're welcome

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[*Hemidactylus*]

JTEM is my hero <jte...@gmail.com> wrote:

He never gave up on the Iraq war. Yet he had a bee in his bonnet for
Kissinger. I may be an atheist but Dennett is the best horseman. The others
have pissed the bed in some way.

[JTEM is my hero]

*Hemidactylus* wrote:

> He never gave up on the Iraq war.

Hitchens was a Neocon.

Nobody can be THAT wrong and maintain my
respect.

Back then, watching him on Bill Maher's
show, I couldn't believe that the man
actually had groupies, and not just
groupies but groupies who considered
themselves analytical, skeptical...

It greatly reduced my opinion of Bill
Maher as well, to carry on oblivious to
the man...




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[jillery]

On Sat, 16 Dec 2017 19:33:42 -0800 (PST), JTEM is my hero
<jte...@gmail.com> wrote:

> jillery wrote:
>
>> Your ad hominem
>
>It's not ad hominem, you fucking idiot. "Ad
>Hominem" is an insult as an argument -- instead
>of an argument.

That's not the definition, you fucking idiot.
From Wiktionary:
****************************
A fallacious objection to an argument or factual claim by appealing to
a characteristic or belief of the person making the argument or claim,
rather than by addressing the substance of the argument or producing
evidence against the claim; an attempt to argue against an opponent's
idea by discrediting the opponent himself.
******************************

All of your previous comments and those below are at best mere opinion
having nothing whatever to do with the substance of his words. In
fact, almost all of your replies are ad hominems.

>Hitchens really was a yellow
>journalist. He really did preach to the
>converted. He really did engage in immature
>antics on TV. And you really are a fucking
>idiot who doesn't know what is and is not ad
>hominem.

There's this new invention, called the Internet. It let's you look up
things like the meanings of words and phrases. You should try it
sometime, if only for the novelty of the experience. Instead, all you
do is show how proud you are of your willful stupidity.

You're welcome.

[JTEM is my hero]

jillery wrote:

> That's not the definition

As an Autistic twat you can only accept an
exact match, but there was nothing in what
you quoted that excluded what I stated.

Again, as an Autistic twat you can't tell,
but who cares?

Even accepting your autistic "Reasoning,"
what you misidentified as "Ad Hominem" still
isn't ad hominem... jackass.



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[J.LyonLayden]

He was a Marxist and I am an entrepreneur. My dislike of his politics has nothing to do with his atheism. I don't want to pay a million dollars for a taxi license like they have to in New York. I don't think children should have to have FDA approval for a lemonade stand. I don't think we should have to sell toilets to Canada so that they can ship them back to us if we still want one to flush well. I don't want 50 government employees for something a computer program can do. I don't want my children telling their teachers if I break an unjust law. I don't want to be fined if I don't pay for healthcare even if I haven't been to a doctor in 30 years. I don't want my employer to cut my hours because he can't afford to pay mandated full-time benefits. I don't want the government in my business. If there is a hell, it will be like a Marxist country.

[jillery]

>He was a Marxist and I am an entrepreneur. My dislike of his politics has nothing to do with his atheism. I don't want to pay a million dollars for a taxi license like they have to in New York. I don't think children should have to have FDA approval for a lemonade stand. I don't think we should have to sell toilets to Canada so that they can ship them back to us if we still want one to flush well. I don't want 50 government employees for something a computer program can do. I don't want my children telling their teachers if I break an unjust law. I don't want to be fined if I don't pay for healthcare even if I haven't been to a doctor in 30 years. I don't want my employer to cut my hours because he can't afford to pay mandated full-time benefits. I don't want the government in my business. If there is a hell, it will be like a Marxist country.

You're entitled to your opinions. Everbody has at least one.

[jillery]

On Sun, 17 Dec 2017 16:43:16 -0800 (PST), JTEM is my hero
<jte...@gmail.com> wrote:

>As an Autistic twat


You're arguing with yourself in the mirror again, and losing the
argument.

[JTEM is my hero]

jillery wrote:

> You're arguing

You would have no way of know, not with
your disabilities. Stop reacting to me
and I'll stop pointing this fact out.








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[J.LyonLayden]

Does this mean as long as it doesn't involve atheism or God or philosophical theories you don't like you won't harass me?

[Mark Isaak]

Some of your rant is against strawmen (the FDA does not regulate
lemonade stands). Some of it I agree with (children telling teachers,
taxi license management). Some of it I don't know what you are
referring to (20 gov't employees, selling toilets). On your last two
specific points, though (benefits and paying for insurance), note that
the countries which *do* have policies different from what you like also
happen to be among the happiest countries on earth, and among those with
the highest standards of living. That's not how I would characterize hell.

Read up on "market failure". For all its advantages, a free market
system includes lots of ways in which it does not work. I want the
government in my business there. But the government has failures of its
own, so I want a free media in *its* business, too. Most government
employees are doing a decent job and not getting enough credit. Trump
is changing that by appointing agency heads who have the goal of
ensuring that their employees cannot do a good job.

--
Mark Isaak eciton (at) curioustaxonomy (dot) net
"Ignorance, allied with power, is the most ferocious enemy justice can
have." - James Baldwin

[J.LyonLayden]

One reason I would have voted for Bernie though I hate his politics is that he would have seen all the piglits and fired them. Trump probably just replaced them. The entire IRS could be a computer program and a team of 10. Make the lobbyist find a real job. Create more incentive and competition in certain government jobs so that their performance and economy equals the private sector.

Toilets:
The democrats voted in water conservancy due to environmental issues. Now all of the contractors install government reg toilets in new homes until the close and inspection. Then the middle class and rich folks order old-school toilets from Canada. The Canadian toilets are made in New Jersey, but they can't be sold in the U.S. So the American corporation sends them to a subsidiary in Canada so they can sell them back to Americans. This is something my brother and uncle and friends have to do for customers on a regular basis. It's not illegal, it's just government bullshit.

> On your last two
> specific points, though (benefits and paying for insurance), note that
> the countries which *do* have policies different from what you like also
> happen to be among the happiest countries on earth, and among those with
> the highest standards of living. That's not how I would characterize hell.

I lived and toured in a couple of those countries for a bit. Everyone was certainly happy in Holland on the day their checks came in. Everyone got them on the same day each month.

My bandleader died of a heart-attack because of the slackness of government healthcare. She was a Dutch/American, and Holland told her the heart-attack was heart-burn. They were inundated with patients that day, as usual.

She had her third heart-attack in Italy on stage playing for 100,000 people. The Italian socialist health care system could have saved her, but they needed permission from her 97 year old mother in Macon who had Alzheimer's and was sound asleep.

That has never happened at the private hospital where my mother works. But it's what happens when there are too many patients in for minor ailments because it's free. Our government is highly inefficient. My Obamacare had one doctor two cities over. I didn't use it once.

I know you won't agree with me and I know I'm about to catch absolute hell from you guys for saying that. But this one's close to my heart and I'm not going to speak on it or reply anymore. I've said I needed to say.

>
> Read up on "market failure". For all its advantages, a free market
> system includes lots of ways in which it does not work. I want the
> government in my business there. But the government has failures of its
> own, so I want a free media in *its* business, too. Most government
> employees are doing a decent job and not getting enough credit.

A decent job? Some government employees are awesome, especially teachers and scientists and archaeologists. The DMV has gotten a lot better over the years. The post office isn't too bad. It's the smaller less monitored areas of local government where you often find the huge inefficiencies, where people can hide from scrutiny and be lazy.

>Trump
> is changing that by appointing agency heads who have the goal of
> ensuring that their employees cannot do a good job.

Well Trump is certainly not the answer, but neither is anyone from one of the two corporate parties.

[Mark Isaak]

Anecdotes suck as evidence. The fact is, we in the US pay twice as much
as other industrialized countries for worse healthcare. And that
doesn't even include the cost of prisons, which are the social safety
net (read: death trap) for the mentally ill. For a minority of the
country, healthcare looks okay. For the rest, we compare unfavorably
with Third World countries.

[jillery]

On Sun, 17 Dec 2017 17:50:35 -0800 (PST), JTEM is my hero
<jte...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Stop reacting to me


You react. I respond.

[jillery]

On Sun, 17 Dec 2017 19:06:39 -0800 (PST), "J.LyonLayden"

I have no idea what you mean by "harrass". OTOH my impression is you
would like very much for me to stop commenting to your posts, so I
will comment on that: too bad.

I will continue to choose to reply to your posts, or not, on a
post-by-post basis, as I see fit, as I have done in the past, as I do
with everybody's posts. I don't need your permission.

Do what you think is best. You don't need my permission. All the
better if you don't reply to me with your irrational crap.

[J.LyonLayden]

For WAY better healthcare. And the reason we pay so much is because we can sue doctors and corporations for millions upon millions more than other countries can. In our country doctors must carry insane insurance policies, which hikes up their pay, and on and on and on. Texas cannot do tort reform unless all the states do tort reform so don't try to use that one please.


We have an FDA which hikes up drug prices for corporations and bans natural medicine that European countries allow over the table. We're constantly selling bad drugs on TV and making everyone a zombie. Natural medicine is no good for corporations and once they legalize marijuana they'll start giving us DUIs for it 30 days after the last puff.

> And that
> doesn't even include the cost of prisons, which are the social safety

I totally agree with you here. Only violent criminals. We can't afford to lock up kids and victimless criminals.

> net (read: death trap) for the mentally ill. For a minority of the

the mentally ill need to be recognized much sooner. I've heard many horror stories about how the guards treat mentally ill women in jail. And the denying of their medication is insane.

> country, healthcare looks okay. For the rest, we compare unfavorably
> with Third World countries.

Third world countries can't go to the state of the art memorial medical center ER for a cold on indigent care.

[JTEM is my hero]

jillery wrote:

> You

You idolize a degenerate neocon.

I'm laughing at you!




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[jillery]

On Sun, 17 Dec 2017 22:01:11 -0800 (PST), JTEM is my hero
<jte...@gmail.com> wrote:

>degenerate


Still talking to yourself in the mirror. How sad.

[JTEM is my hero]

jillery wrote:

> Still talking to yourself in the mirror.

No. Not at all. But you really do idolize a
degenerate neocon.

What's that like? Are you ashamed of it? You
idolize a degenerate neocon. You do. And
having someone point out this fact bothers
you. A lot.

So why do you idolize him then?





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[JTEM is my hero]

J.LyonLayden wrote:

> For WAY better healthcare. And the reason we pay so much is because we can sue doctors and corporations for millions upon millions more than other countries can.

This is hilarious.

We don't have "Way better healthcare." The United States
ranks pretty low. EVEN FAKING the statistics -- "Adjusting"
life expectancy figures to reflect how much "Healthier"
Americans are -- we rank #31.

...if we don't adjust life expectancy to reflect how
much more "Healthy" we are than other countries, we
rank #43... so people live longer in 42 other countries,
our healthcare is so much better than theirs!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_life_expectancy

As for lawsuits...

The vast majority of lawsuits filed in the U.S.
are by CORPORATIONS, yet conservatives have
been brainwashing people for decades claiming
that all our problems are caused by private
citizens filing claims.

It's corporatism. We don't have capitalism in
America we have corporatism. In capitalism
THE MARKET DECIDES. In corporatism the
corporations are the beginning, middle & end
of everything...

Okay, listen up: We have what is by far the
most expensive healthcare system the planet
has ever known, but in terms of raw numbers
AND per capita spending. But it's all the
fault of the people, the little guy. If we
could only strip them of their power to sue
then our benevolent corporations would bestow
upon us the cheapest healthcare with the
highest life expectancies...

It's freaking insane!





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[jillery]

On Sun, 17 Dec 2017 22:48:16 -0800 (PST), TIBAMJTEM <jte...@gmail.com>
wrote:

...nothing coherent.

[J.LyonLayden]

On Monday, December 18, 2017 at 2:45:03 AM UTC-5, jillery wrote:
> On Sun, 17 Dec 2017 22:48:16 -0800 (PST), TIBAMJTEM <jte...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> ...nothing coherent.

You aren't even aware of how stupid JTEM makes you look several times a day, are you?

[jillery]

On Sun, 17 Dec 2017 23:47:17 -0800 (PST), "J.LyonLayden"
<joseph...@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Monday, December 18, 2017 at 2:45:03 AM UTC-5, jillery wrote:
>> On Sun, 17 Dec 2017 22:48:16 -0800 (PST), TIBAMJTEM <jte...@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> ...nothing coherent.
>
>
>You aren't even aware of how stupid JTEM makes you look several times a day, are you?

Since you asked, I'm aware of how stupid you and TIBAMJTEM make
yourselves look.

Grow up.

[J.LyonLayden]

On Monday, December 18, 2017 at 3:00:02 AM UTC-5, jillery wrote:
> On Sun, 17 Dec 2017 23:47:17 -0800 (PST), "J.LyonLayden"
> <joseph...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >On Monday, December 18, 2017 at 2:45:03 AM UTC-5, jillery wrote:
> >> On Sun, 17 Dec 2017 22:48:16 -0800 (PST), TIBAMJTEM <jte...@gmail.com>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> ...nothing coherent.
> >
> >
> >You aren't even aware of how stupid JTEM makes you look several times a day, are you?
>
>
> Since you asked, I'm aware of how stupid you and TIBAMJTEM make
> yourselves look.

So you aren't aware? Just dumb and mean and not a shred of humor, huh?
What's it take to make you laugh? Torture, starving kittens?

[jillery]

On Mon, 18 Dec 2017 00:28:27 -0800 (PST), "J.LyonLayden"

<joseph...@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Monday, December 18, 2017 at 3:00:02 AM UTC-5, jillery wrote:
>> On Sun, 17 Dec 2017 23:47:17 -0800 (PST), "J.LyonLayden"
>> <joseph...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> >On Monday, December 18, 2017 at 2:45:03 AM UTC-5, jillery wrote:
>> >> On Sun, 17 Dec 2017 22:48:16 -0800 (PST), TIBAMJTEM <jte...@gmail.com>
>> >> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> ...nothing coherent.
>> >
>> >
>> >You aren't even aware of how stupid JTEM makes you look several times a day, are you?
>>
>>
>> Since you asked, I'm aware of how stupid you and TIBAMJTEM make
>> yourselves look.
>
>So you aren't aware? Just dumb and mean and not a shred of humor, huh?
>What's it take to make you laugh? Torture, starving kittens?

So you have nothing intelligent to say. Is anybody surprised.

[J.LyonLayden]

On Monday, December 18, 2017 at 3:40:03 AM UTC-5, jillery wrote:
> On Mon, 18 Dec 2017 00:28:27 -0800 (PST), "J.LyonLayden"
> <joseph...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >On Monday, December 18, 2017 at 3:00:02 AM UTC-5, jillery wrote:
> >> On Sun, 17 Dec 2017 23:47:17 -0800 (PST), "J.LyonLayden"
> >> <joseph...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> >On Monday, December 18, 2017 at 2:45:03 AM UTC-5, jillery wrote:
> >> >> On Sun, 17 Dec 2017 22:48:16 -0800 (PST), TIBAMJTEM <jte...@gmail.com>
> >> >> wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> ...nothing coherent.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >You aren't even aware of how stupid JTEM makes you look several times a day, are you?
> >>
> >>
> >> Since you asked, I'm aware of how stupid you and TIBAMJTEM make
> >> yourselves look.
> >
> >So you aren't aware? Just dumb and mean and not a shred of humor, huh?
> >What's it take to make you laugh? Torture, starving kittens?
>
>
> So you have nothing intelligent to say. Is anybody surprised.

Do you think what you just said in response is intelligent, or how deep does you sociopathy descend?

No one's here to be surprised, dumb-dumb. It's 4 AM. And you are still alone and angry like the last decade of your life.

[jillery]

On Mon, 18 Dec 2017 00:48:03 -0800 (PST), "J.LyonLayden"

<joseph...@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Monday, December 18, 2017 at 3:40:03 AM UTC-5, jillery wrote:
>> On Mon, 18 Dec 2017 00:28:27 -0800 (PST), "J.LyonLayden"
>> <joseph...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> >On Monday, December 18, 2017 at 3:00:02 AM UTC-5, jillery wrote:
>> >> On Sun, 17 Dec 2017 23:47:17 -0800 (PST), "J.LyonLayden"
>> >> <joseph...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> >On Monday, December 18, 2017 at 2:45:03 AM UTC-5, jillery wrote:
>> >> >> On Sun, 17 Dec 2017 22:48:16 -0800 (PST), TIBAMJTEM <jte...@gmail.com>
>> >> >> wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> ...nothing coherent.
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >You aren't even aware of how stupid JTEM makes you look several times a day, are you?
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Since you asked, I'm aware of how stupid you and TIBAMJTEM make
>> >> yourselves look.
>> >
>> >So you aren't aware? Just dumb and mean and not a shred of humor, huh?
>> >What's it take to make you laugh? Torture, starving kittens?
>>
>>
>> So you have nothing intelligent to say. Is anybody surprised.
>
>Do you think what you just said in response is intelligent, or how deep does you sociopathy descend?
>
>No one's here to be surprised, dumb-dumb. It's 4 AM. And you are still alone and angry like the last decade of your life.

So you still have nothing intelligent to say. Is anybody surprised.

[J.LyonLayden]

Oh, actually he did say industrialized countries.

Here's the thing though JTEM. You are measuring our medical system by our life expectancy, and that is not entirely correct.

Our obesity rate dwarfs Europes. People here eat fast food every single night. They can't even get their fat asses out of the car and walk into the restaurant, but prefer to wait in their AC cars in a 10 car line.

People in Europe and even Canada WALK. They ride bikes everywhere.


When I lived in Holland, I had to go to the grocery store 2 miles every other day for groceries because a big fridge is unheard of in downtown Amsterdam. Very few people even have cars, and if they do it's for riding in the country on a Sunday or going on a trip.

Last time I was at Atlanta airport, every third person who walked by me was huge. I took a flight to Europe and it was three days before I saw the first obese person, walking through streets filled with people.

Obesity takes a strain on our health.

I can't imagine how socializing medicine could make it better, though. We, including corporations, can sue for more money than any other country. Doctor's insurance is way higher as a result, as are their salaries to compensate. Our drug prices are through the roof. Good drugs and other medicines are banned. HGH is helping people live longer in Europe. I can't imagine how curbing some of that excess wouldn't help bring the cost down, and bring the longevity up.

[J.LyonLayden]

Big scary god is coming to get you Jillery. Gonna take away your dildo and your Doral Lights.

[Mark Isaak]

No. We're not much worse than Canada, Sweden, and Japan, but we are not
quite up to their levels, either.

> And the reason we pay so much is because we can sue doctors and corporations for millions upon millions more than other countries can. In our country doctors must carry insane insurance policies, which hikes up their pay, and on and on and on. Texas cannot do tort reform unless all the states do tort reform so don't try to use that one please.

I used to believe that, too, but medical liability is only a relatively
small addition to health costs. The big cost is the insurance industry,
which adds a whole huge industry that consumes resources and produces
nothing. Another contributor is lobbyists, which buy laws that favor
the richest corporations. In particular, drug companies use their power
to keep drug prices high, and of course drug manufacturers are raking in
billions for their outstanding service of killing a hundred Americans
each day with opioid addiction, while the federal government obediently
looks the other way.

Recommended reading: _The Healing of America_ by T.R. Reid. It compares
healthcare systems of several countries (US, France, Germany, Japan,
Canada, India; I don't remember if UK was in there).

>
> We have an FDA which hikes up drug prices for corporations and bans natural medicine that European countries allow over the table. We're constantly selling bad drugs on TV and making everyone a zombie. Natural medicine is no good for corporations and once they legalize marijuana they'll start giving us DUIs for it 30 days after the last puff.
>
>> And that
>> doesn't even include the cost of prisons, which are the social safety
>
>
> I totally agree with you here. Only violent criminals. We can't afford to lock up kids and victimless criminals.
>
>
>> net (read: death trap) for the mentally ill. For a minority of the
>
> the mentally ill need to be recognized much sooner. I've heard many horror stories about how the guards treat mentally ill women in jail. And the denying of their medication is insane.
>
>
>
>> country, healthcare looks okay. For the rest, we compare unfavorably
>> with Third World countries.
>
>
> Third world countries can't go to the state of the art memorial medical center ER for a cold on indigent care.

Infant mortality in US inner cities is higher than in many third world
countries.

[Bob Casanova]

On Sun, 17 Dec 2017 23:47:17 -0800 (PST), the following
appeared in talk.origins, posted by "J.LyonLayden"
<joseph...@gmail.com>:

>On Monday, December 18, 2017 at 2:45:03 AM UTC-5, jillery wrote:
>> On Sun, 17 Dec 2017 22:48:16 -0800 (PST), TIBAMJTEM <jte...@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> ...nothing coherent.
>
>
>You aren't even aware of how stupid JTEM makes you look several times a day, are you?

The question is, are you aware of how stupid, boring,
vindictive and non-communicative JTEM looks to nearly
everyone, nearly all the time?
--

Bob C.

"The most exciting phrase to hear in science,
the one that heralds new discoveries, is not
'Eureka!' but 'That's funny...'"

- Isaac Asimov

[J.LyonLayden]

Absolutely. But these costs are driven up by corporate lawsuits and the high price of drugs. They push drugs on us that they can claim a monopoly on, charge crazy prices, and create more health problems. Often with homeopathic medicine would do much better with less side effects.

Another contributor is lobbyists, which buy laws that favor
> the richest corporations.

Absolutely! The corporate lobbyist are much to blame for everything.

> In particular, drug companies use their power
> to keep drug prices high, and of course drug manufacturers are raking in
> billions for their outstanding service of killing a hundred Americans
> each day with opioid addiction, while the federal government obediently
> looks the other way.

Exactly!

>
> Recommended reading: _The Healing of America_ by T.R. Reid. It compares
> healthcare systems of several countries (US, France, Germany, Japan,
> Canada, India; I don't remember if UK was in there).

Nice! Thank you.

>
> >
> > We have an FDA which hikes up drug prices for corporations and bans natural medicine that European countries allow over the table. We're constantly selling bad drugs on TV and making everyone a zombie. Natural medicine is no good for corporations and once they legalize marijuana they'll start giving us DUIs for it 30 days after the last puff.
> >
> >> And that
> >> doesn't even include the cost of prisons, which are the social safety
> >
> >
> > I totally agree with you here. Only violent criminals. We can't afford to lock up kids and victimless criminals.
> >
> >
> >> net (read: death trap) for the mentally ill. For a minority of the
> >
> > the mentally ill need to be recognized much sooner. I've heard many horror stories about how the guards treat mentally ill women in jail. And the denying of their medication is insane.
> >
> >
> >
> >> country, healthcare looks okay. For the rest, we compare unfavorably
> >> with Third World countries.
> >
> >
> > Third world countries can't go to the state of the art memorial medical center ER for a cold on indigent care.
>
> Infant mortality in US inner cities is higher than in many third world
> countries.

Ok I think that is a big focus point. Medical care is way better in rural areas and small cities than the inner cities of metropolises. There's probably no comparison between Savannah and Atlanta for indigent care.

And every state needs to make tiny houses for the homeless and Georgia can hire my company to build them ;)

[J.LyonLayden]

On Monday, December 18, 2017 at 1:20:03 PM UTC-5, Bob Casanova wrote:
> On Sun, 17 Dec 2017 23:47:17 -0800 (PST), the following
> appeared in talk.origins, posted by "J.LyonLayden"
> <joseph...@gmail.com>:
>
> >On Monday, December 18, 2017 at 2:45:03 AM UTC-5, jillery wrote:
> >> On Sun, 17 Dec 2017 22:48:16 -0800 (PST), TIBAMJTEM <jte...@gmail.com>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> ...nothing coherent.
> >
> >
> >You aren't even aware of how stupid JTEM makes you look several times a day, are you?
>
> The question is, are you aware of how stupid, boring,
> vindictive and non-communicative JTEM looks to nearly
> everyone, nearly all the time?

At least he makes me laugh every once in a while, or makes me consider a different angle. Jillery does nothing but goad people for no reason I can discern.

[jillery]

On Mon, 18 Dec 2017 11:45:47 -0800 (PST), "J.LyonLayden"
<joseph...@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Monday, December 18, 2017 at 1:20:03 PM UTC-5, Bob Casanova wrote:
>> On Sun, 17 Dec 2017 23:47:17 -0800 (PST), the following
>> appeared in talk.origins, posted by "J.LyonLayden"
>> <joseph...@gmail.com>:
>>
>> >On Monday, December 18, 2017 at 2:45:03 AM UTC-5, jillery wrote:
>> >> On Sun, 17 Dec 2017 22:48:16 -0800 (PST), TIBAMJTEM <jte...@gmail.com>
>> >> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> ...nothing coherent.
>> >
>> >
>> >You aren't even aware of how stupid JTEM makes you look several times a day, are you?
>>
>> The question is, are you aware of how stupid, boring,
>> vindictive and non-communicative JTEM looks to nearly
>> everyone, nearly all the time?
>
>
>At least he makes me laugh every once in a while, or makes me consider a different angle. Jillery does nothing but goad people for no reason I can discern.

You make all these posts yammering on and on about how terrible a
person I am, and then you blame me for goading others. My Irony Meter
can't take much more of this.

[J.LyonLayden]

I have a reason to fuck with you. You had no reason to goad Erik, and you had no reason to goad me for three days. I still owe you 2 more.

[Tim Norfolk]

On Monday, December 18, 2017 at 2:45:04 PM UTC-5, J.LyonLayden wrote:
> On Monday, December 18, 2017 at 12:15:04 PM UTC-5, Mark Isaak wrote:

><snip>

> >
> > I used to believe that, too, but medical liability is only a relatively
> > small addition to health costs. The big cost is the insurance industry,
> > which adds a whole huge industry that consumes resources and produces
> > nothing.
>
> Absolutely. But these costs are driven up by corporate lawsuits and the high price of drugs. They push drugs on us that they can claim a monopoly on, charge crazy prices, and create more health problems. Often with homeopathic medicine would do much better with less side effects.
>
>

Replying to both of you.

I had this argument some years ago, with a conservative friend. This was before the ACA, and his argument was that medical insurance companies only made a profit of 5-7%.

That was true. However, when one looked at the money spent on premiums which stayed with the insurance companies, and was not spent of care at all, it was up to 54%.

That is one major source of the cost differential. Another is the massive office staffs required to navigate all of the insurers.

Now, as to homeopathic remedies having fewer side effects, that is by default true, given that they are sugar and distilled water.

[J.LyonLayden]

I should have used "holistic," and "herbal"— not sure why I just said homeopathic. But I don't think it's sugar and water. homeopathy is a dose of the disease itself.


Here's a summary of a scientific study.

"A recent clinical trial evaluating homeopathic medicine was a unique study of the treatment of asthma.6 Researchers at the University of Glasgow used conventional allergy testing to discover which substances these asthma patients were most allergic to. Once this was determined, the subjects were randomized into treatment and placebo groups.

Those patients chosen for treatment were given the 30c potency of the substance to which they were most allergic (the most common substance was house dust mite). The researchers called this unique method of individualizing remedies "homeopathic immunotherapy" (homeopathic medicines are usually prescribed based on the patient's idiosyncratic symptoms, not on laboratory analysis or diagnostic categories). Subjects in this experiment were evaluated by both homeopathic and conventional physicians.

This study showed that 82% of the patients given a homeopathic medicine improved, while only 38% of patients given a placebo experienced a similar degree of relief. When asked if they felt the patient received the homeopathic medicine or the placebo, both the patients and the doctors tended to guess correctly."

I know skeptics like to discount scientific studies they don't like, so be my guest.

[Mark Isaak]

Did you hear about the homeopathy patient who forgot to take his
medicine? He died of an overdose.

[Tim Norfolk]

A 30C dilution is 1 part in 10^-60, which dilutes you way past the point of a single molecule. It is sympathetic magic.

And here is one issue, that the study in fact showed nothing at all: http://www.bmj.com/content/322/7279/169

[Mark Isaak]

On 12/18/17 2:48 PM, J.LyonLayden wrote:

> Really marijuana is sugar and water? Willow bark is too? Why do Europeans get to use HGH and we don't?

>
> Here's a summary of a scientific study.
>
> "A recent clinical trial evaluating homeopathic medicine was a unique study of the treatment of asthma.6 Researchers at the University of Glasgow used conventional allergy testing to discover which substances these asthma patients were most allergic to. Once this was determined, the subjects were randomized into treatment and placebo groups.
>
> Those patients chosen for treatment were given the 30c potency of the substance to which they were most allergic (the most common substance was house dust mite). The researchers called this unique method of individualizing remedies "homeopathic immunotherapy" (homeopathic medicines are usually prescribed based on the patient's idiosyncratic symptoms, not on laboratory analysis or diagnostic categories). Subjects in this experiment were evaluated by both homeopathic and conventional physicians.
>
> This study showed that 82% of the patients given a homeopathic medicine improved, while only 38% of patients given a placebo experienced a similar degree of relief. When asked if they felt the patient received the homeopathic medicine or the placebo, both the patients and the doctors tended to guess correctly."
>
> I know skeptics like to discount scientific studies they don't like, so be my guest.

You ought to know that being published, by itself, is no guarantee of
validity. You have probably seen that Alan Kleinman got his screwy
views published. The statistics journal he published in checked that
his math was okay but knew nothing about the biology he pretended to
apply it to. Some journals will publish anything as long as you pay
them up front. If the trial you report was printed in a journal like
that, you can throw it out right now. Professionals in the relevant
fields mostly know to avoid such journals, but others do not.

And I suspect it was a poor journal, because the mention of evaluation
by "homeopathic and conventional physicians" implies that the study was
not double-blind (else why would both be needed?), which would mean its
method, and therefore its results, are garbage.

Do you have the complete citation?

Another recommended reading (I'd make it required reading for everyone
if I had that power): _Thinking, Fast and Slow_ by Daniel Kahneman.

[jillery]

On Mon, 18 Dec 2017 13:22:28 -0800 (PST), "J.LyonLayden"

<joseph...@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Monday, December 18, 2017 at 3:55:03 PM UTC-5, jillery wrote:
>> On Mon, 18 Dec 2017 11:45:47 -0800 (PST), "J.LyonLayden"
>> <joseph...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> >On Monday, December 18, 2017 at 1:20:03 PM UTC-5, Bob Casanova wrote:
>> >> On Sun, 17 Dec 2017 23:47:17 -0800 (PST), the following
>> >> appeared in talk.origins, posted by "J.LyonLayden"
>> >> <joseph...@gmail.com>:
>> >>
>> >> >On Monday, December 18, 2017 at 2:45:03 AM UTC-5, jillery wrote:
>> >> >> On Sun, 17 Dec 2017 22:48:16 -0800 (PST), TIBAMJTEM <jte...@gmail.com>
>> >> >> wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> ...nothing coherent.
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >You aren't even aware of how stupid JTEM makes you look several times a day, are you?
>> >>
>> >> The question is, are you aware of how stupid, boring,
>> >> vindictive and non-communicative JTEM looks to nearly
>> >> everyone, nearly all the time?
>> >
>> >
>> >At least he makes me laugh every once in a while, or makes me consider a different angle. Jillery does nothing but goad people for no reason I can discern.

That you laugh at TIBAMJTEM's "humor" shows your emotional development
doesn't exceed that of junior high school. If you're actually that
old, there's still hope for you. Otherwise, not so much.

>I have a reason to fuck with you.

No doubt you think you do, but only because you're a delusional
sociopath.

>You had no reason to goad Erik, and you had no reason to goad me for three days.

I don't do "goad". That's what you admit YOU do.

> I still owe you 2 more.

I will be surprised if you're capable of counting that high.

[JTEM is my hero]

jillery wrote:

> That you

You idolize a fucking neocon. Your "Perspective"
is diseased.




-- --

http://jtem.tumblr.com/post/168691673763

[jillery]

On Tue, 19 Dec 2017 00:02:52 -0800 (PST), JTEM is my hero
<jte...@gmail.com> wrote:

> jillery wrote:
>
>> That you
>
>You idolize a fucking neocon. Your "Perspective"
>is diseased.

So you still have nothing intelligent to say. Is anybody surprised.

[Ernest Major]

On 18/12/2017 22:48, J.LyonLayden wrote:
>> That is one major source of the cost differential. Another is the massive office staffs required to navigate all of the insurers.
>>
>> Now, as to homeopathic remedies having fewer side effects, that is by default true, given that they are sugar and distilled water.

> Really marijuana is sugar and water? Willow bark is too? Why do Europeans get to use HGH and we don't?
>

Marijuana is not a homeopathic remedy.

Willow bark is not a homeopathic remedy.

HGH is not a homeopathic remedy.

--
alias Ernest Major

[J.LyonLayden]

That was a from a long article that had many citations, and I checked none of them. I'm not really interested in looking it up again. I've never tried homeopathic remedies.

I actually used the wrong word. I really should have said "wholistic" or alternative.

I have tried Ayurvedic medicine, herbal remedies, acupuncture, reiki, and good nutrition.


I think Americans are pumping detrimental drugs into their bodies.


I think the FDA favors drugs with side effects that corporations can patent over the source of those same drugs that can be grown in your backyard.

I think that exercise and change of diet is a better prescription than a synthetic drug a lot of the time.

I don't really care to look up stats for this. It's not my fight, and if you want to keep eating drugs instead of the natural products they came from that's great.

But when the corporations themselves are on TV listing 5 miles of side effects for something I've see hypnotherapy cure, I feel there is a problem.


And when Europe is reporting longer life due to HGH and our FDA still has it listed as illegal, we shouldn't be able to claim Europe's longevity is due to better health care.

Our obesity, dependence on synthetic drugs, fast food, lack of HGH, and unhealthy lifestyles might have somethinhg to do with it to.

[J.LyonLayden]

I didn't read the whole paper Kleinman gave me. But I read the summary and skimmed the first part. It doesn't seem to be providing evidence for what he says it does. It only seems to be describing mutation processes on the microbial level.

I think his mistake is trying to claim this can happen in the same way in more complex life forms. This doesn't seem to be addressed at all in the papers he claims to be evidence for his larger theory.

But I may be wrong. Are his papers actually erroneous?

[Bob Casanova]

On Mon, 18 Dec 2017 11:45:47 -0800 (PST), the following

appeared in talk.origins, posted by "J.LyonLayden"
<joseph...@gmail.com>:

>On Monday, December 18, 2017 at 1:20:03 PM UTC-5, Bob Casanova wrote:
>> On Sun, 17 Dec 2017 23:47:17 -0800 (PST), the following
>> appeared in talk.origins, posted by "J.LyonLayden"
>> <joseph...@gmail.com>:
>>
>> >On Monday, December 18, 2017 at 2:45:03 AM UTC-5, jillery wrote:
>> >> On Sun, 17 Dec 2017 22:48:16 -0800 (PST), TIBAMJTEM <jte...@gmail.com>
>> >> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> ...nothing coherent.
>> >
>> >
>> >You aren't even aware of how stupid JTEM makes you look several times a day, are you?
>>
>> The question is, are you aware of how stupid, boring,
>> vindictive and non-communicative JTEM looks to nearly
>> everyone, nearly all the time?
>
>
>At least he makes me laugh every once in a while, or makes me consider a different angle.

He makes me laugh sometimes, too, but I suspect the humor I
see in his posts differs from what you perceive. "At" as
contrasted with "with", as it were.

> Jillery does nothing but goad people for no reason I can discern.

Actually, she frequently engages in serious discussions, and
is willing to do far more research when pursuing an idea or
subject than I usually am. We've had disagreements, but they
remained fairly cordial.

[Bob Casanova]

On Mon, 18 Dec 2017 13:22:28 -0800 (PST), the following

What's an "Erik"?

>, and you had no reason to goad me for three days. I still owe you 2 more.

[Ernest Major]

On 19/12/2017 16:40, J.LyonLayden wrote:
> I didn't read the whole paper Kleinman gave me. But I read the summary and skimmed the first part. It doesn't seem to be providing evidence for what he says it does. It only seems to be describing mutation processes on the microbial level.
>
> I think his mistake is trying to claim this can happen in the same way in more complex life forms. This doesn't seem to be addressed at all in the papers he claims to be evidence for his larger theory.

That recombination happens differently in eukaryotes than in prokaryotes
does matter, but his big error is in claiming that what happens when
populations are subjected to multiple (to the wild type) lethal
selection pressures applies in all circumstances. He would have his
readers believe that all that is relevant is multiplying the
probabilities of mutations occurring, but if pressed on this point will
back down at little.

>
> But I may be wrong. Are his papers actually erroneous?

Since his papers are paywalled I haven't been able to check them out,
but I wouldn't be surprised if they were erroneous, even in the limit of
strong and hard selection.

--
alias Ernest Major

[Bob Casanova]

On Tue, 19 Dec 2017 14:20:34 +0000, the following appeared
in talk.origins, posted by Ernest Major
<{$to$}@meden.demon.co.uk>:

And the 30c dilution he mentioned means that there was
*none* of the material in the dose.

[Bob Casanova]

On Tue, 19 Dec 2017 08:40:18 -0800 (PST), the following
appeared in talk.origins, posted by "J.LyonLayden"
<joseph...@gmail.com>:

Well, he claims that his math supports his claim that
competition is detrimental to selection, because it slows
selection among variants; that should be a clue.

[J.LyonLayden]

She probably doesn't have a strong-felt need to demolish any belief you may have expressed here. If you had expressed one, she would likely have used deceitful methods to attempt to discredit it. She may even have continued to badger you about nuances of phrases after you'd indicated not wishing to speak about it further. I wouldn't doubt if her ire and criticism of small discrepancies in phrase and word meaning extended to multiple threads, had that happened between the two of you.

[J.LyonLayden]

Yeah full disclosure I know virtually nothing about homeopathic medicine and used it instead of "alternate" or "natural" or "wholistic" for some strange reason. When the word was challenged, I found a study and read a little about it and posted my brief finding just as devil's advocate.

[Tim Norfolk]

At least some of the 4 studies were in the BMJ.

[Tim Norfolk]

On Tuesday, December 19, 2017 at 10:30:04 AM UTC-5, J.LyonLayden wrote:
<snip>

> I have tried Ayurvedic medicine, herbal remedies, acupuncture, reiki, and good nutrition.
>

<snip>

>
> I think that exercise and change of diet is a better prescription than a synthetic drug a lot of the time.
>

<snip>

1. When the FDA and others have tested Ayurvedic and herbal remedies, they have found a lot of rat faeces, often very little to none of the claimed substance, and also commonly pharmaceutical drugs. In one case, a 'male enhancement' product, claiming to be 'natural' had something like 60 times the lethal dose of Viagra.

2. Acupuncture has been tested with sham and other techniques, and not a single properly blinded test has given positive results.

3. Reiki was made up out of whole cloth in the 40's, as I recall, and is quite literally hand-waving. Check out the brilliant test of 'Touch Therapy' by a 9-year-old girl some years back.

4. Good nutrition is not an alternative health practice. Neither is exercise.

[J.LyonLayden]

On Tuesday, December 19, 2017 at 1:20:03 PM UTC-5, Tim Norfolk wrote:
> On Tuesday, December 19, 2017 at 10:30:04 AM UTC-5, J.LyonLayden wrote:
> <snip>
> > I have tried Ayurvedic medicine, herbal remedies, acupuncture, reiki, and good nutrition.
> >
> <snip>
> >
> > I think that exercise and change of diet is a better prescription than a synthetic drug a lot of the time.
> >
> <snip>
>
> 1. When the FDA and others have tested Ayurvedic and herbal remedies, they have found a lot of rat faeces, often very little to none of the claimed substance, and also commonly pharmaceutical drugs. In one case, a 'male enhancement' product, claiming to be 'natural' had something like 60 times the lethal dose of Viagra.

I don't know about that since I grow my own herbs. Do people get marijuana from FDA approved drug stores in all states?

>
> 2. Acupuncture has been tested with sham and other techniques, and not a single properly blinded test has given positive results.

Still, Otzi the Iceman believed in it 8000 years ago and so do I. We must be superstitious.

>
> 3. Reiki was made up out of whole cloth in the 40's, as I recall, and is quite literally hand-waving. Check out the brilliant test of 'Touch Therapy' by a 9-year-old girl some years back.

Yeah but see I've felt the intense heat and it got rid of my shoulder muscle pain. I can't make that heat with my hands.

Has massage been proven effective scientifically? Or saunas?

>
> 4. Good nutrition is not an alternative health practice. Neither is exercise.

Sure does me a lot better than Aderall. They wired me with it in school because I learned my lessons too fast. So far three of my friends in the service industry have died from its abuse. And ADD and hyperactivty have been shown in some studies to be fringe science.

[Mark Isaak]

On 12/19/17 8:31 AM, J.LyonLayden wrote:

> I didn't read the the whole paer he gave me. But I read the summary and skimmed the first part. It doesn't seem to be providing evidence for what he says it does. It only seems to be diesctibing mutation processes on the microbial level.
>
> I think his mistake is trying to claim this can happen in the same way in more complex life forms. this doesn't seem to be addressed at all in the papers he claims to be evidence for his larger theory.

>
> But I may be wrong. Are his papers actually erroneous?

His papers are valid as applied to using multiple antibiotics, where any
one antibiotic kills 90% of the population. Kleinman goes on to
conclude that it applies to evolution generally, where selection
pressures typically take out less than 5% of the population. (I don't
recall whether he makes any such generalization in his papers. The big
faults I saw with his published papers are (1) that they use
non-standard terminology, and (2) that they say nothing new.)

[Mark Isaak]

Don't forget that the wholistic and alternative therapies are packaged
and sold by big corporations, too (who have marketing departments savvy
enough to downplay such an image). The reason why "natural" medicines
have free license to lie to consumers about their effectiveness is
because their industry's true effectiveness is in their lobbyists.

Interesting fact: People who take health supplements are less healthy
than those who do not.

[Burkhard]

But that would not be very surprising - after all, people who take ACE
inhibitors say are more likely to have heart attacks, and people who
take the pill are statistically more likely to get pregnant than those
who don't

[Ernest Major]

After a little googling

1) The size of the HGH market is in North America is nearly twice the
size of the market in Europe, even though Europe has over/approaching
twice the population of North America (depending on whether Mexico is
included).

2) HGH is prescription-only in most of Europe, as in the US.

>>
>> Our obesity, dependence on synthetic drugs, fast food, lack of HGH,
>> and unhealthy lifestyles might have somethinhg to do with it to.
>
> Don't forget that the wholistic and alternative therapies are packaged
> and sold by big corporations, too (who have marketing departments savvy
> enough to downplay such an image).  The reason why "natural" medicines
> have free license to lie to consumers about their effectiveness is
> because their industry's true effectiveness is in their lobbyists.
>
> Interesting fact: People who take health supplements are less healthy
> than those who do not.
>

According to WikiPedia doctors were killing intensive care patients by
treating them with HGH. (There was an excess of deaths among the treated
group.)

--
alias Ernest Major

[Mark Isaak]

As I recall, the fact holds even when correcting for that (and for
income, which adds a bias in the opposite direction).

[Mark Isaak]

Correction: "papers" should be "paper". I only read one and the
abstract of another.

[jillery]

On Tue, 19 Dec 2017 10:00:48 -0800 (PST), "J.Lyin"
<joseph...@gmail.com> wrote:


>> > Jillery does nothing but goad people for no reason I can discern.
>

>She probably doesn't have a strong-felt need to demolish any belief you may have expressed here. If you had expressed one, she would likely have used deceitful methods to attempt to discredit it. She may even have continued to badger you about nuances of phrases after you'd indicated not wishing to speak about it further. I wouldn't doubt if her ire and criticism of small discrepancies in phrase and word meaning extended to multiple threads, had that happened between the two of you.

This is another example of your dishonest misrepresentation and
strawmen. Jillery suggested no such thing. You have no objective
basis for assuming Jillery's future behavior.

Your words and style are too similar to another dishonest and cowardly
troll to be coincidence. Perhaps you deliberately ape him in your
explicitly admitted efforts to goad Jillery.

[Bob Casanova]

On Tue, 19 Dec 2017 10:06:14 -0800 (PST), the following

>Yeah full disclosure I know virtually nothing about homeopathic medicine and used it instead of "alternate" or "natural" or "wholistic" for some strange reason. When the word was challenged, I found a study and read a little about it and posted my brief finding just as devil's advocate.

Your privilege, but you should note that posting as Devil's
Advocate is risky, especially if you're not well-known;
people might think that you actually believe the crap, as
DrDr believes his.

[JTEM is my hero]

You idolize a neocon. You value the
thoughts & opinions of a neocon.

You're a laughing stock. No wonder you
rotate through different handles
agreeing with yourself!





-- --

http://jtem.tumblr.com/post/89645099264

[jillery]

On Sun, 24 Dec 2017 22:19:45 -0800 (PST), JTEM is my hero
<jte...@gmail.com> wrote:

... nothing intelligent.


You're still losing your argument with a mirror.

[Bob Casanova]

On Sun, 24 Dec 2017 22:19:45 -0800 (PST), the following
appeared in talk.origins, posted by JTEM is my hero
<jte...@gmail.com>:

[Zero context or attributions]

>You idolize a neocon. You value the
>thoughts & opinions of a neocon.
>
>You're a laughing stock. No wonder you
>rotate through different handles
>agreeing with yourself!

You do spend an inordinate amount of time talking to
yourself...