More Creationist Claims
John Falsename
for the construction of all the necessary components of a self
replicating cell such as ribosomes, cell membranes, RNA, ATP,
mitochondria, endoplasmic reticulum, ion pumps, as well as the DNA
strand itself is evidence for the Creator. Think for a moment about
what level of technology would be required to build a self replicating
mechanism. Try to build one yourself. There's your evidence."
He also pointed out a couple papers in which he used to support this
claim:
"How about two. 1) A HERV-K provirus in chimpanzees, bonobos and
gorillas, but not humans. 2) ERVs regulate embryo implantation,
placental growth and differentiation."
"The source for the first is The Department of Molecular Genetics,
Albert Einstein College of Medicine, 1300 Morris Park Avenue, Bronx,
NY 10461, USA. Published on May 15, 2001 a paper entitled "A HERV-K
provirus in chimpanzees, bonobos and gorillas, but not humans." The
contradiction is obviously that if humans shared a common ancestor
with chimps, gorillas and bonobos then humans should have the same
HERV-K provirus in question but we don't. "
Mitchell Coffey
Who is "He"?
Mitchell Coffey
John Harshman
Cherry-picking carried to the extreme. There are two obvious
explanations for that particular distribution: 1) insertion and fixation
in the common ancestor of chimps, gorillas, and humans, followed by
deletion and fixation in the human lineage, or 2) insertion without
fixation in the common ancestor, with the ERV maintained as a
polymorphism in the human/chimp combined lineage, with eventual fixation
of different haplotypes (ERV present/absent) in different species.
Either would do. We expect to see some instances of both. And in fact,
if I recall, around 20% of genes support a gorilla-chimp clade, an equal
20% support a human-gorilla clade, with the remaining 60% supporting the
human-chimp clade. This sort of thing is common when the time between
branchings is fairly short. Still, the signal is unmistakable. Unless
you pick just those parts you like and ignore the parts you don't, which
is what creationists always do.
DougC
> "More than 500,000 nucleotides encoded with the instructions necessary
> for the construction of all the necessary components of a self
> replicating cell
How about a few billion years of random selection to find fitness
followed by random selection of random pairings followed by survival
followed by random additions, etc. Lots of cells get randomly hooked
up with other surviving cells. Time is no object. Now we have giant
sloths and camels and earthworms. Why not whales and gerat apes?
Doug Chandler
Ernest Major
<9cdd3fbd-95ba-4df2...@q40g2000prg.googlegroups.com>,
John Falsename <distrus...@gmail.com> writes
No doubt you already know this, but for the record there are (at least)
two possible explanations of the absence of this particular provirus in
the human genome.
Firstly, differential sorting of ancestral polymorphisms. Gorilla,
chimpanzee (+bonobo) and man is pretty close to a trichotomy. Because of
statistical variance it's only the balance of traits that shows that
humans are close to chimpanzees than either is to gorillas. If the
common ancestor of all three lineages was polymorphic for the trait then
as the two branching points are so close together it could have remained
polymorphic in the common ancestor of chimpanzees and humans, and
subsequently fixed in the gorilla and chimpanzee lineages and lost in
the human lineage.
Secondly, bits of the genome fixed in an ancestral population can be
lost in a descendant lineage.
Apart from that how is that observation supposed to support his claim?
--
alias Ernest Major
John Harshman
Is that a reference to the famous paleontologist Gerat Vermeij?
cassandra
He Be that He Be.
John Harshman
cassandra
This is a good example of the fundamental deception of Intelligent
Design proponents. They use complex biologic systems as proof of
design and thus a designer, when in fact complex biologic systems are
based on simpler biologic systems are based on even simpler physical
laws. The only thing apparent design proves is the willingness of the
observer to jump to conclusions based on ignorance, assumptions, and
false logic.
cassandra
Popeye is yams (I yam what I yam).
Robert Camp
> "More than 500,000 nucleotides encoded with the instructions necessary
> for the construction of all the necessary components of a self
> replicating cell such as ribosomes, cell membranes, RNA, ATP,
> mitochondria, endoplasmic reticulum, ion pumps, as well as the DNA
> strand itself is evidence for the Creator. Think for a moment about
> what level of technology would be required to build a self replicating
> mechanism. Try to build one yourself. There's your evidence."
"If I can't do it, it must have been God."
I'm constantly amazed at how meager and uninspiring the creationist
god is.
RLC
John Falsename
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F3sFRvw5qsA
It was an attempt to refute a video stating the evidences regarding
evolution. I know most of what he said is a rehash of Creationist
arguments for the most part but the small differences always seem to
get me asking questions again.
Dick C.
42c9-b88f-5...@k13g2000vbq.googlegroups.com:
He whose name shall not be mentioned.
>
> Mitchell Coffey
>
--
Dick #1349
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
safety
deserve neither liberty nor safety."
~Benjamin Franklin
Home Page: dickcr.iwarp.com
email: dic...@gmail.com
John Falsename
> Mitchell Coffey <m.cof...@starpower.net> wrote in news:35a8cf47-7c04-
> 42c9-b88f-58c534c12...@k13g2000vbq.googlegroups.com:
Forgive my clumsiness. I posted the source on an earlier post in this
thread.
Tim Norfolk
> Mitchell Coffey <m.cof...@starpower.net> wrote in news:35a8cf47-7c04-
> 42c9-b88f-58c534c12...@k13g2000vbq.googlegroups.com:
>
>
>
>
>
>
> - Show quoted text -
Karl?
bobsyo...@yahoo.com
"cassandra" <cassand...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:dac4f6f5-30a4-4f75...@z25g2000vbn.googlegroups.com...
> On Sep 17, 12:49 pm, Mitchell Coffey <m.cof...@starpower.net> wrote:
>> On Sep 17, 12:36 pm, John Falsename <distrustinr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> > "More than 500,000 nucleotides encoded with the instructions necessary
>> > replicating cell such as ribosomes, cell membranes, RNA, ATP,
>> > mitochondria, endoplasmic reticulum, ion pumps, as well as the DNA
>> > strand itself is evidence for the Creator. Think for a moment about
>> > what level of technology would be required to build a self replicating
>> > mechanism. Try to build one yourself. There's your evidence."
>>
>> > He also pointed out a couple papers in which he used to support this
>> > claim:
>>
>> > gorillas, but not humans. 2) ERVs regulate embryo implantation,
>> > placental growth and differentiation."
>>
>> > "The source for the first is The Department of Molecular Genetics,
>> > Albert Einstein College of Medicine, 1300 Morris Park Avenue, Bronx,
>> > NY 10461, USA. Published on May 15, 2001 a paper entitled "A HERV-K
>> > provirus in chimpanzees, bonobos and gorillas, but not humans." The
>> > contradiction is obviously that if humans shared a common ancestor
>> > with chimps, gorillas and bonobos then humans should have the same
>>
>> Who is "He"?
>
> He Be that He Be.
>
Has that any relationship to "I am that I am"?
cassandra
<bobsyoung...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> "cassandra" <cassandra99...@gmail.com> wrote in message
It's the ebonics translation.
Jared
[...]
> This is a good example of the fundamental deception of Intelligent
> Design proponents. They use complex biologic systems as proof of
> design and thus a designer, when in fact complex biologic systems are
> based on simpler biologic systems are based on even simpler physical
> laws. The only thing apparent design proves is the willingness of the
> observer to jump to conclusions based on ignorance, assumptions, and
> false logic.
To design something means to have a purpose and an outward form in
mind, while being mostly free to construct the internal workings of
the thing you are building.
But to evolve something means that the internal workings are inherited
while the purpose and outward form are undirected.
cassandra
and so...???
Desertphile
<distrus...@gmail.com> wrote:
> "More than 500,000 nucleotides encoded with the instructions necessary
> for the? construction of all the necessary components of a self
> replicating cell such as ribosomes, cell membranes, RNA, ATP,
> mitochondria, endoplasmic reticulum, ion pumps, as well as the DNA
> strand itself is evidence for the Creator. Think for a moment about
> what level of technology would be required to build a self replicating
> mechanism. Try to build one yourself. There's your evidence."
>
> He also pointed out a couple papers in which he used to support this
> claim:
>
> "How about two. 1) A HERV-K provirus? in chimpanzees, bonobos and
> gorillas, but not humans.
Non-fixed allele.
> 2) ERVs regulate embryo implantation,
> placental growth and differentiation."
ROTFL!
> "The source for the first is The Department of Molecular Genetics,
> Albert Einstein College of Medicine, 1300 Morris Park Avenue, Bronx,
> NY 10461, USA. Published on May 15, 2001 a paper entitled "A HERV-K
> provirus in chimpanzees, bonobos and gorillas, but not humans." The
> contradiction is obviously that if humans shared a common ancestor
> with chimps, gorillas and bonobos then humans should have the same
> HERV-K provirus in question but we don't.? "
--
http://desertphile.org
Desertphile's Desert Soliloquy. WARNING: view with plenty of water
"Why aren't resurrections from the dead noteworthy?" -- Jim Rutz
Desertphile
<jhar...@pacbell.net> wrote:
> John Falsename wrote:
> > "More than 500,000 nucleotides encoded with the instructions necessary
> > for the? construction of all the necessary components of a self
> > replicating cell such as ribosomes, cell membranes, RNA, ATP,
> > mitochondria, endoplasmic reticulum, ion pumps, as well as the DNA
> > strand itself is evidence for the Creator. Think for a moment about
> > what level of technology would be required to build a self replicating
> > mechanism. Try to build one yourself. There's your evidence."
> >
> > He also pointed out a couple papers in which he used to support this
> > claim:
> >
> > "How about two. 1) A HERV-K provirus? in chimpanzees, bonobos and
> > gorillas, but not humans. 2) ERVs regulate embryo implantation,
> > placental growth and differentiation."
> >
> > "The source for the first is The Department of Molecular Genetics,
> > Albert Einstein College of Medicine, 1300 Morris Park Avenue, Bronx,
> > NY 10461, USA. Published on May 15, 2001 a paper entitled "A HERV-K
> > provirus in chimpanzees, bonobos and gorillas, but not humans." The
> > contradiction is obviously that if humans shared a common ancestor
> > with chimps, gorillas and bonobos then humans should have the same
> > HERV-K provirus in question but we don't.? "
>
> Cherry-picking carried to the extreme. There are two obvious
> explanations for that particular distribution: 1) insertion and fixation
> in the common ancestor of chimps, gorillas, and humans, followed by
> deletion and fixation in the human lineage, or 2) insertion without
> fixation in the common ancestor, with the ERV maintained as a
> polymorphism in the human/chimp combined lineage, with eventual fixation
> of different haplotypes (ERV present/absent) in different species.
> Either would do. We expect to see some instances of both. And in fact,
> if I recall, around 20% of genes support a gorilla-chimp clade, an equal
> 20% support a human-gorilla clade, with the remaining 60% supporting the
> human-chimp clade. This sort of thing is common when the time between
> branchings is fairly short. Still, the signal is unmistakable. Unless
> you pick just those parts you like and ignore the parts you don't, which
> is what creationists always do.
The paper cited event explains why the ERV is "missing."
Creationists don't bother reading that part.
John Harshman
Well, it provided several potential explanations, and preferred one, the
second explanation I gave. They reject the first because it would
require exact deletion of the retroviral sequence, leaving the sequence
just as it was before the insertion. While such exact reversals seem
unlikely, there are a few cases in which either exact deletion or
identical, parallel insertions must have happened. So we can't
completely rule that out.