The immediate causes of the EU crisis

[Wise TibetanMonkey, Most Humble Philosopher]

On Monday, September 19, 2016 at 8:58:37 AM UTC-4, Malcolm McMahon wrote:
> "Wise TibetanMonkey, Most Humble Philosopher" <thetibet...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >I'll be blunt: They are the wars in Syria and Libya and the hurried expansion
> >into Eastern Europe.
> >
> >I hope the Western Europeans understand that and deal with it. The dream is
> >dead.
> >
> >
>
> No, the contest contines, as it has since the Enlightenment.
>
> https://soupdragonsite.wordpress.com/2016/04/04/heart-vs-head-the-essential-conflict-of-the-modern-world/

Well, it explains a few things but others remain unsolved. The integration of Western Europe was utopian enough, then it was decided the concept would be expanded and then that more people could be brought from outside without the paleocortex mounting a panic attack: "Where is my tribe?"

The problem is the neocortex is not happy either. "Why all this expansion and confusion is going on? Are we absorbing the world and in the process endangering another war?" If it weren't because we live in the nuclear age, the Russians sure would have attacked already (because they ain't fools), but the neocortex told them to wait out, and it was the paleocortex of the Britons that came to the rescue. See, nobody is happy except perhaps the Eastern Europeans and the new waves of immigrants that have great illusions. When the illusions vanish, they'll turn to their paleocortex and resort to violence, because that's the way of the paleocortex.

So, is there a way to reconcile the paleo and the neo? Yes, there is. It's something that appeals both to the hunter-gatherer and the sedentary man. Actually there's a conflict between the two, and the sedentary man (usually older but not wiser) is calling the shots. That's the issue. That's why we need the revolution. Nothing radical, just retiring Jesus and embracing the pagan values of freedom. Hey, you don't have to believe in Aphrodite, you just have to feel her.

[eridanus]

well, the present problem of EU. Or the problem of capitalism when it comes
to the point of a economic depression.

We need to understand, or to identify the cause of the ascent and fall of
Wall Street's stocks. Why middle class people was investing in stocks?
Why after the crash of Wall Street it looked like we would had landed on
the moon just crashing?

So, the famous "free market" was not really solving any problem. The system
had crashed. Why the market crashed? Because of the industrialization. The industrial items were sort of costly and the costumers were middle class of
some ranking. Once they all had bought some industrial good, they get
indebted with the banks or just do not want to buy more cars for they do not
needed. When the customers of industrial goods get scarce, we start to preach
them to borrow money to buy industrial goods. The banks need to loose the
requirements to lend the money. But it is a question of time, that most people
with capacity to buy industrial goods get ruined.
I remember some comments complaining the all nations become protective of their
own markets and were not buying. Thus crisis was not that people got ruined,
or lost their capacity to buy, but it was interpreted as other nations getting
closed and protective of their own markets.

But the fact was that all middle classes were ruined, both in the US and in
Europe. Then, apparently the crisis was mainly the heavy industry that had
stopped selling. Why? Lack of costumers.

Her we invented the European Community, later called EU. By extending the
number of nations the industrial nations thought "this is not going to stop",
or this conglomerate of nations is not going to get ruined.
But, first of all, it was needed the new nations would pull down the tariffs
on imports. For the poor nations of Europe had some tariffs to retard the
amount of imports and debts. I remember when Spain entered into the EU. We ignored what really meant. They made not any debates in TV presenting the
pros and cons to enter. I recalled someone asked, what it means "the freedom
movement of capitals?" Nobody knew. I did not know the meaning of this.
One ventured, it means if Germany, by example want to put a factory in Spain
we cannot tell no. OK, all thought it was a good thing to have a German
factory in Spain.
Then, the common currency. What it meant? It meant you could not devalue
your currency to make more expansive to buy imports. Then, the poor nations
had not any way to control the imports, for you could not impose tariffs and
you could not devalue your currency. Well, when our local banks would had not
more money, they could not lend money for people to buy foreign cars or TVs
he it comes the freedom of movement of capitals. The exporter nations could
lend the banks of poor nation money enough to buy cars and other industrial goods.
then, when the banks cannot return the money at time, the nation had to assume the debt of those banks. Then some poor nations of Europe have a debt of 130
or 150% of the GNP.
Then, we are now before a sort of economic depression. Young people have
little perspectives of work. It is young people that start to listen to
"innovative ideas" that promise them solutions.
Nevertheless the present lack of jobs is not a real problem. The real problem
would be the exhaustion of fossil fuels. This would guarantee a real
Armageddon for us all. Now, the crisis of the middle east is coming to us
with all the power of their excess population. I vaguely saw the civil war
of Syria, but I did not know that they had exhausted their oil already. But
not only the exhausted the oil, they had problems with their harvest of grain
and a lot of people had migrated from Iraq to Syria, increasing the problems.
There exist to projects for a gas pipeline. One sponsored by Saudi Arabia and
US is passing by Syria to Turkey. The other pipeline would go from Iran to a
port in Syria and is sponsored by Russia.
Then, you see there are many reasons for a civil war in Syria. Excess
population, scarcity of food, exhaustion of oil, immigrants from Iraq, etc.
eri



of

[Wise TibetanMonkey, Most Humble Philosopher]

On Monday, September 19, 2016 at 3:02:52 PM UTC-4, Malcolm McMahon wrote:
> "Wise TibetanMonkey, Most Humble Philosopher" <thetibet...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> On Monday, September 19, 2016 at 8:58:37 AM UTC-4, Malcolm McMahon wrote:
> >> "Wise TibetanMonkey, Most Humble Philosopher" <thetibet...@gmail.com>
> >> wrote:
> >> >I'll be blunt: They are the wars in Syria and Libya and the hurried
> >> >expansion
> >> >into Eastern Europe.
> >> >
> >> >I hope the Western Europeans understand that and deal with it. The dream is
> >> >dead.
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
> >> No, the contest contines, as it has since the Enlightenment.
> >>
> >>
> >>https://soupdragonsite.wordpress.com/2016/04/04/heart-vs-head-the-essential-conflict-of-the-modern-world/
> >
> >Well, it explains a few things but others remain unsolved. The integration of
> >Western Europe was utopian enough, then it was decided the concept would be
> >expanded and then that more people could be brought from outside without the
> >paleocortex mounting a panic attack: "Where is my tribe?"
> >
>

> Like I said, the heart always fights back. But that doesn't mean it wins. We
> live in the most peaceful human society, probably, that has _ever_ existed. We
> even feel guilty about killing out and out foreigners (which is a first).

Never has Europe feared terrorism at home. Never has Europe been overrun by immigrants with no end insight. Your PM just cited the issue today.

>
> >The problem is the neocortex is not happy either. "Why all this expansion and
> >confusion is going on? Are we absorbing the world and in the process
> >endangering another war?"
>

> But, in the long term, if we don't do quite a bit of unification then WWIII
> remains only a matter of time.

Now try to get Hungary to agree with the refugee policy.
>
> That's the whole purpose of the EU, to prevent the next European war. And we've
> gone two whole generations without one, historically unprecedented. Before the
> EU we'd have a major European war about once per generation. Oh there was the
> civil war in former Yugslavia, but the former Yugoslavia wasn't part of the EU.
>
> Even Russian came within a gnat's whisker of getting with the program. If only
> the West had given Gorbachev/Yeltsin some serious backing.

NATO should never have expanded into the east like a conqueror. Such humiliation gave rise to Putin.

[Wise TibetanMonkey, Most Humble Philosopher]

Capitalism needs constant expansion in both population and territory. That's how the West wad born. Then United States said Latin America was part of their business too. Europe is winning the East but in the process it is weakened.

However mother nature has other ideas about this and sets a limit. From here we are going down because the resources are being depleted and the climate is changing. Russia and Canada offer the most hope but they are being watched with jealous eyes. Even the Artic and Antarctic regions are being contested.

So we are a ticking bomb.

[Matt Beasley]

About 2/3 of conflict comes from big egos at the top,
butting heads; another 10% is from drug prohibition;
another 10% is from overpopulation; another 10% is from
not having a stable currency, pegged to gold.

Shortening life spans, out of respect for other creatures
and future generations, by stopping the prevention of
some communicable diseases, like influenza, will address the
overpopulation and the selfishness gone wild at the top.
.
.
--

[eridanus]

El martes, 20 de septiembre de 2016, 0:30:04 (UTC+1), Wise TibetanMonkey, Most Humble Philosopher escribió:
> On Monday, September 19, 2016 at 3:02:52 PM UTC-4, Malcolm McMahon wrote:
> > "Wise TibetanMonkey, Most Humble Philosopher" <thetibet...@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> > On Monday, September 19, 2016 at 8:58:37 AM UTC-4, Malcolm McMahon wrote:
> > >> "Wise TibetanMonkey, Most Humble Philosopher" <thetibet...@gmail.com>
> > >> wrote:
> > >> >I'll be blunt: They are the wars in Syria and Libya and the hurried
> > >> >expansion
> > >> >into Eastern Europe.
> > >> >
> > >> >I hope the Western Europeans understand that and deal with it. The dream is
> > >> >dead.
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >>
> > >> No, the contest contines, as it has since the Enlightenment.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>https://soupdragonsite.wordpress.com/2016/04/04/heart-vs-head-the-essential-conflict-of-the-modern-world/
> > >
> > >Well, it explains a few things but others remain unsolved. The integration of
> > >Western Europe was utopian enough, then it was decided the concept would be
> > >expanded and then that more people could be brought from outside without the
> > >paleocortex mounting a panic attack: "Where is my tribe?"
> > >
> >
> > Like I said, the heart always fights back. But that doesn't mean it wins. We
> > live in the most peaceful human society, probably, that has _ever_ existed. We
> > even feel guilty about killing out and out foreigners (which is a first).
>
> Never has Europe feared terrorism at home. Never has Europe been overrun by immigrants with no end insight. Your PM just cited the issue today.

I remember some bombing of "anarchists" around the end of 19th century, and
it lasted some a couple of decades in the 20th century. In France there was
some terrorists on the part of some Algerians after independence. But lasted
only some five or six years. Former members of the French army were also
committing a few attacks for they were disappointed with the independence of
Algeria for they lost of fat revenues. They even attempted to kill president
Charles de Gaulle but failed. A best seller novel was made of this failed
attempt.

> > >The problem is the neocortex is not happy either. "Why all this expansion and
> > >confusion is going on? Are we absorbing the world and in the process
> > >endangering another war?"
> >
> > But, in the long term, if we don't do quite a bit of unification then WWIII
> > remains only a matter of time.
>
> Now try to get Hungary to agree with the refugee policy.
> >
> > That's the whole purpose of the EU, to prevent the next European war. And we've
> > gone two whole generations without one, historically unprecedented. Before the
> > EU we'd have a major European war about once per generation. Oh there was the
> > civil war in former Yugslavia, but the former Yugoslavia wasn't part of the EU.
> >
> > Even Russian came within a gnat's whisker of getting with the program. If only
> > the West had given Gorbachev/Yeltsin some serious backing.

> NATO should never have expanded into the east like a conqueror. Such humiliation gave rise to Putin.

They only pretended to sell cars to them.
eri

[eridanus]

all things have limits. To expend economic influence to sell them cars and computers have a limit also, for the debt of those client nations increases
too much. Once they are indebted they stop buying; for it is time to pay.

But even if we find some oil in the shores of the Arctic, it cannot exist
much, except methane. Oil is the accumulation of solar energy caught by
some microorganism. We cannot bet the sun was able to shine a lot in the
Arctic shores of Canada and Russia. To prove me wrong they can try to look
for oil in the Bay of Hudson or on the shores of Labrador. The North Atlantic
oil of Norway and UK has passed its peak and is now dwindling. But even if the
region is around 60º latitude it has in favor the warm currents of the Gulf.
But the Hudson Bay is well under 60 degrees of latitude and even close to 50 in
the south. It can exist gas in the southern region, just a saying. But I had
heard or read any word about. Unless it is a tight secret.
The Prudhoe Bay oil can be explained because a warm current enters there from
the Pacific ocean. But we cannot bet against get oil on the shores. We do
not know yet enough to dispute about these questions. Perhaps, some time ago, when both North American plate or Europe and Siberian plates were at much lower latitude, like 150 million years ago. 90 million years ago, most of Europe were covered by a shallow sea, as well as the Arabian plate.

eri

[Wise TibetanMonkey, Most Humble Philosopher]

Canada and Russia posses another resource more precious than oil: water.

The USA would like to have it, China would like to have it. Wars will be fought over water.

[Wise TibetanMonkey, Most Humble Philosopher]

On Tuesday, September 20, 2016 at 5:06:35 AM UTC-4, Malcolm McMahon wrote:
> NATO was _pulled_ Eastwards, it didn't push. Those ex Russian empire countries demanded protection.
>
> The humiliation that gave rise to Putin was the failure of the Russian economy. The reason for the current military aggression is to distract attention from that failure.

I'd expect the puppets always to have a puppet mentality. They couldn't be proud and neutral like, say, Switzerland.

And NATO being so polite and proper obliged. They even volunteered in the occupation of Iraq.

[Wise TibetanMonkey, Most Humble Philosopher]

The unwise elderly are the biggest political machinery ever created. They tend to vote and get rewarded for it with extended and fruitless lifestyles.

The young are jobless and restless, and have an uncertain future. It's a political game which is another time bomb.

[Wise TibetanMonkey, Most Humble Philosopher]

On Tuesday, September 20, 2016 at 10:53:12 AM UTC-4, Oleg Smirnov wrote:
> Wise TibetanMonkey, Most Humble Philosopher,
> <news:49e9fd63-81c3-412f...@googlegroups.com>
> > On Tuesday, September 20, 2016 at 5:06:35 AM UTC-4,

> > Malcolm McMahon wrote:
> >> The humiliation that gave rise to Putin was the failure
> >> of the Russian economy. The reason for the current
> >> military aggression is to distract attention from that
> >> failure.
>

> The great "failure of the Russian economy" happened in the 1990s, there
> was no any other 'failure', so the idea 'to distract attention' is a dense
> falsehood as most of what Mr McMahon usually claims.

>
> > I'd expect the puppets always to have a puppet mentality.
> > They couldn't be proud and neutral like, say,
> > Switzerland.
> >
> > And NATO being so polite and proper obliged. They even
> > volunteered in the occupation of Iraq.
>

> If it's about the NATO expansion then, I think, it's wrong to speak for
> 'countries'. Atlanticism bribed establishments / ruling elites in these
> countries. For example the current Ukrainian government policy is in fact
> anti-national and against their people, but there's no much criticism about
> that because the new politicians have been bought by the US establishment
> (instead, the magic word 'corruption' is used as allegedly the only reason
> for the post-coup devastation in the Ukraine).
>
> The NATO expansion worked as a positive feedback system, initiated not by
> Russia. I.e. if a government of some country declares it's going to NATO
> then Moscow says we will have to correct our defence, then the Atlanticist
> agitprop yells Russia threats her neighbors, while the initial fact that
> the expansion of NATO is an increase in threats to Russia is completely
> ignored, and any Russia's arguments are drowned out by demagoguery. But if
> reasonable arguments are deliberately ignored then it's a sure way to a war,
> and thus the Atlanticist policy of expansion looks like a reckless attempt
> to continue the WW2, in a sluggish mode so far, but it can switch.

NATO's asset is fear. Fear makes people justify war (Hitler invaded the USSR to prevent a Soviet move, so he said), fear feeds the military-industrial complex and fear cements an obsolete military alliance.

If it comes to actual war, everybody loses. This is WWII in slow motion.

[Wise TibetanMonkey, Most Humble Philosopher]

Their strategy may be to bankrupt Russia and install a puppet regime. I've seen that happen before.

[Bob Casanova]

On Mon, 19 Sep 2016 23:03:10 -0700 (PDT), the following
appeared in talk.origins, posted by Matt Beasley
<less...@gmail.com>:

....and the remaining 3.33% is the failure to acknowledge
Matt Beasley as Supreme Arbiter of all which is Good and
Right, and the only Holder of All Knowledge.

>Shortening life spans, out of respect for other creatures
>and future generations, by stopping the prevention of
>some communicable diseases, like influenza, will address the
>overpopulation and the selfishness gone wild at the top.

Yes, Matt, we're all aware of your opinion. PHBBBTTTT!
--

Bob C.

"The most exciting phrase to hear in science,
the one that heralds new discoveries, is not
'Eureka!' but 'That's funny...'"

- Isaac Asimov

[czeba...@gmail.com]

Bob Casanova said: "Matt...THBBBTTTT!"

What Matt seems unaware of is that it's the increase in deleterious alleles that is the real (long-run) problem (per Ron O. on another thread). But that won't be solved by killing off old people: it's breeding-age folk who are passing those alleles along.

gregwrld

[Wise TibetanMonkey, Most Humble Philosopher]

On Tuesday, September 20, 2016 at 1:30:26 PM UTC-4, Wise TibetanMonkey, Most Humble Philosopher wrote:
> On Tuesday, September 20, 2016 at 11:53:49 AM UTC-4, Wise TibetanMonkey, Most Humble Philosopher wrote:
> > On Tuesday, September 20, 2016 at 10:53:12 AM UTC-4, Oleg Smirnov wrote:
> > > Wise TibetanMonkey, Most Humble Philosopher,
> > > <news:49e9fd63-81c3-412f...@googlegroups.com>

> > > > On Tuesday, September 20, 2016 at 5:06:35 AM UTC-4,

(I quote)

“The Clinton and Bush foreign policy teams acted on the basis of two false premises,” said Mandelbaum. “One was that Russia is innately aggressive and that the end of the cold war could not possibly change this, so we had to expand our military alliance up to its borders. Despite all the pious blather about using NATO to promote democracy, the belief in Russia’s eternal aggressiveness is the only basis on which NATO expansion ever made sense — especially when you consider that the Russians were told they could not join. The other premise was that Russia would always be too weak to endanger any new NATO members, so we would never have to commit troops to defend them. It would cost us nothing. They were wrong on both counts.”

The humiliation that NATO expansion bred in Russia was critical in fueling Putin’s rise after Boris Yeltsin moved on.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/20/opinion/20friedman.html?_r=1

***

Neither Clinton, Bush or Obama took advantage of the "peace dividend." Money spent on war has a greater profit than on peace, but "destroying and building" is a process also found in civilian use, particularly on the road projects found around here. This seems like a "war zone" with no particular benefit to the people.

[Bob Casanova]

On Tue, 20 Sep 2016 16:30:30 -0700 (PDT), the following
appeared in talk.origins, posted by czeba...@gmail.com:

>Bob Casanova said: "Matt...THBBBTTTT!"
>
>What Matt seems unaware of is that it's the increase in deleterious alleles that is the real (long-run) problem (per Ron O. on another thread). But that won't be solved by killing off old people: it's breeding-age folk who are passing those alleles along.

Matt is unaware of far more than that, but his personal
hobbyhorse gallops on.

[Matt Beasley]

Wise TibetanMonkey, Most Humble Philosopher wrote:
> Wise TibetanMonkey, Most Humble Philosopher wrote:
> > Oleg Smirnov wrote:
> > > Wise TibetanMonkey, Most Humble Philosopher,

Nothing will ever change with the inner city violence
until we reverse drug prohibition. The black market gangs
are competing governments, so we have, in effect, a civil war!
.
.
--

[Wise TibetanMonkey, Most Humble Philosopher]

Agreed. Quoting my manifesto:

"The war on drugs and prostitution is unproductive and hypocritical, so that’s a waste of money. WE SHOULD FIGHT CORRUPTION INSTEAD."

[Matt Beasley]

> Agreed. Quoting my manifesto:
>
> "The war on drugs & prostitution is unproductive & hypocritical,

> so that’s a waste of money. WE SHOULD FIGHT CORRUPTION INSTEAD."

Power Corrupts
by Ben Moreell

When a person gains power over other persons–political power to
force other persons to do his bidding when they do not believe it
right to do so–it seems inevitable that a moral weakness develops
in the person who exercises that power. It may take time for this
weakness to become visible. In fact, its full extent is frequently
left to the historians to record, but we eventually learn of it.
It was Lord Acton, the British historian, who said: “All power
tends to corrupt; absolute power corrupts absolutely.”

Please do not misunderstand me. These persons who are corrupted by
the process of ruling over their fellow men are not innately evil.
They begin as honest men. Their motives for wanting to direct the
actions of others may be purely patriotic and altruistic. Indeed,
they may wish only “to do good for the people.” But, apparently,
the only way they can think of to do this “good” is to impose more
restrictive laws.

Now, obviously, there is no point in passing a law which requires
people to do something they would do anyhow; or which prevents
them from doing what they are not going to do anyhow. Therefore,
the possessor of the political power could very well decide to
leave every person free to do as he pleases so long as he does not
infringe upon the same right of every other person to do as he
pleases. However, that concept appears to be utterly without reason
to a person who wants to exercise political power over his fellow
man, for he asks himself: “How can I ‘do good’ for the people if I
just leave them alone?” Besides, he doesn't want to pass into
history as a “do nothing” leader who ends up as a footnote
somewhere. So he begins to pass laws that will force all other
persons to conform to his ideas of what is good for them.

That is the danger point! The more restrictions and compulsions
he imposes on other persons, the greater the strain on his own
morality. As his appetite for using force against people increases,
he tends increasingly to surround himself with advisers who also
seem to derive a peculiar pleasure from forcing others to obey
their decrees. He appoints friends and supporters to easy jobs of
questionable necessity. If there are not enough jobs to go around,
he creates new ones. In some instances, jobs are sold to the
highest bidder. The hard-earned money of those over whom he rules
is loaned for questionable private endeavors or spent on grandiose
public projects at home and abroad. If there is opposition, an
emergency is declared or created to justify these actions.

If the benevolent ruler stays in power long enough, he eventually
concludes that power and wisdom are the same thing. And as he
possesses power, he must also possess wisdom. He becomes converted
to the seductive thesis that election to public office endows the
official with both power and wisdom. At this point, he begins to
lose his ability to distinguish between what is morally right and
what is politically expedient.

http://www.acton.org/pub/religion-liberty/volume-2-number-6/power-corrupts

[dayan...@gmail.com]

The situation in Eastern Europe is way harder than in Western, and it always was like that. Here's an interesting source explaining reasons of actual economic crisis which embraced the whole world, check http://planetaryproject.com/global_problems/economic/ .

[eridanus]

El miércoles, 28 de septiembre de 2016, 9:20:05 (UTC+1), dayan...@gmail.com escribió:
> The situation in Eastern Europe is way harder than in Western, and it always was like that. Here's an interesting source explaining reasons of actual economic crisis which embraced the whole world, check http://planetaryproject.com/global_problems/economic/ .

we are often speaking about "economic crisis", but we rarely try to dig in
what is the reason for the crisis, or why we are talking of a crisis.
Machines had been robbing jobs to humans. This was good and bad at the same
time. The slope of using machines is not parallel with the profits it makes
over people. In some point, the growth in the use of machines works against
people having jobs. People started to become redundant, and machines can do
nicely any job humans were doing before. When our machines would make
redundant the human intelligence it would be the end of humanity. It can
arrive sooner than that. This civilization is resting on cheap sources of
energy. These would not last forever. A Johnathan emergency of death and
extermination would come out with the exhaustion of fossil fuels.
Then, as Johnathan says something comes to us to hasten the extermination
of humanity. This the emergence Johnathan is talking about, death.

eri

[Wise TibetanMonkey, Most Humble Philosopher]

It seems it's about time to shorten the workweek, but the economic reality of globalization makes it nearly impossible. It's a race to the bottom, not the top.

Quality of life is not part of their plan.

[Wise TibetanMonkey, Most Humble Philosopher]

Many of these fruitless actions are meant to be a plain DISTRACTION, from other realities such poverty and corruption. Actually a war on corruption would be far more helpful than any other war.