Atheist murders 26 in Texas church

[Ray Martinez]

Death count will likely increase with at least 20 wounded, most in serious condition.

CNN/Don Lemon show reports that the killer was an enraged Atheist. According to gunman associate, Christopher Longoria, he unfriended the shooter on Facebook for posting strong and unwelcomed pro-Atheism opinions.

We know the Vegas shooter deliberately targeted a country music festival where the gathering sang "God Bless America" a short time earlier.

Atheists in the West think of themselves as sophisticated and of course civilized. These latest mass murder events remind the world that Atheists do commit mass murder because of implacable hatred.

Ray

[jillery]

You mean like the 9/11 hijackers... oh wait... nevermind.



--
I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.

Evelyn Beatrice Hall
Attributed to Voltaire

[Ray Martinez]

Yes, good and accurate comparison. The Bible is redundantly clear: no other deities exist except the biblical God. So the 911 hijackers were Atheists as well.

Ray

[Andre G. Isaak]

In article <127697a0-7699-4ad6...@googlegroups.com>,

The god of the Quran is the same god as the biblical god -- both are the
god of Abraham.

Andre

--
To email remove 'invalid' & replace 'gm' with well known Google mail service.

[Ray Martinez]

Go to Tehran, or Baghdad, or any city in Afghanistan, for example, blow a horn and get everyone's attention, then tell the crowd that Allah and Jehovah are the same deity and see how fast your head gets fitted with a noose.

Ray

[Andre G. Isaak]

In article <6a84f0fd-5cd6-4c77...@googlegroups.com>,

Christians in Tehran or Baghdad refer to their god as 'Allah', not as
'Jehovah' (the latter being an Anglicized version of the
tetragrammaton). 'Allah' (from El(ohim)) is simply the Arabic word for
'god'.

[Öö Tiib]

Your ignorance does not modify the world. Most Muslims believe that
they worship same God as Christians (and Jews). Muslims worship the
God who created Adam and Eve, who rescued Noah from the flood, who
promised Abraham a vast progeny, who helped Moses escape Egypt, who
made the Virgin Mary great with child, who sent Jesus into the world,
who helped the disciples overcome, and who is still sovereign today.

[Andre G. Isaak]

In article <23a9d251-0410-4132...@googlegroups.com>,

See also,

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_in_Abrahamic_religions#Islam

[*Hemidactylus*]

You do realize this shooter had a pattern of violence before this event and
was court marshaled and locked up by the Air Force for a year? It is
possible that he coupled a warped atheism with whatever dark demons were
already haunting his brain. But the implacable hatred on display here is
yours. It was to he expected that you would post such an attack on
atheists. But since you think all are atheists (Muslims and Christians) who
do not believe as you I am not surprised.

[*Hemidactylus*]

Ray has demonstrated on numerous occasions that he is a loathsome
hate-filled person brimming with bigotry and lacking all charity toward
Others. Regardless of his 1st person self-perceptions, his actions are very
unChristian.

[Bill Rogers]

Of course Ray, all murders everywhere are committed by atheists, because if you commit a murder you are, by definition, an atheist. How as your haggis at dinner last night?

[Malte Runz]

On Mon, 6 Nov 2017 19:35:26 -0800 (PST), Ray Martinez
<r3p...@gmail.com> wrote:

Let's play 'spot the correlation'!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate
Murder rates per 100.000

Denmark: 0.99
France: 1.58
USA: 4.88


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Importance_of_religion_by_country
"Is religion important in your daily life?". Percentages for "yes" and
"no" answers are listed below;


Denmark: 19% - 80%
France: 30% - 69%
USA: 69% - 31%

--
Malte Runz

[Bill Rogers]

That's simple. Atheists hate Christians and the USA is a more target-rich environment for atheist murderers than is Europe.

Well, not....but that's an answer Ray might suggest.

[jillery]

On Mon, 6 Nov 2017 23:26:58 -0800 (PST), Ray Martinez

<r3p...@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Monday, November 6, 2017 at 9:50:03 PM UTC-8, jillery wrote:
>> On Mon, 6 Nov 2017 19:35:26 -0800 (PST), Ray Martinez
>> <r3p...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> >Death count will likely increase with at least 20 wounded, most in serious condition.
>> >
>> >CNN/Don Lemon show reports that the killer was an enraged Atheist. According to gunman associate, Christopher Longoria, he unfriended the shooter on Facebook for posting strong and unwelcomed pro-Atheism opinions.
>> >
>> >We know the Vegas shooter deliberately targeted a country music festival where the gathering sang "God Bless America" a short time earlier.
>> >
>> >Atheists in the West think of themselves as sophisticated and of course civilized. These latest mass murder events remind the world that Atheists do commit mass murder because of implacable hatred.
>> >
>> >Ray
>>
>>
>> You mean like the 9/11 hijackers... oh wait... nevermind.
>>
>>
>

>Yes, good and accurate comparison. The Bible is redundantly clear: no other deities exist except the biblical God. So the 911 hijackers were Atheists as well.
>
>Ray

More of your silly word games. Islam traces its roots to Abraham and
Ishmael. Its traditions and practices have more in common with
Judaism than either have with Christianity.

[jillery]

On Tue, 7 Nov 2017 00:01:57 -0800 (PST), Ray Martinez

What you describe above is a consequence of schism. The same happens
between Shia and Sunni and Wahhabi. The same happened between
Christians and Muslims, and Catholics and Protestants. All trace
their roots to Abraham. The differences among them are similar to
those between Lilliput and Blefuscu.

[jillery]

On Tue, 07 Nov 2017 12:34:27 +0100, Malte Runz
<noyo...@notgetting.it> wrote:

>On Mon, 6 Nov 2017 19:35:26 -0800 (PST), Ray Martinez
><r3p...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>Death count will likely increase with at least 20 wounded, most in serious condition.
>>
>>CNN/Don Lemon show reports that the killer was an enraged Atheist. According to gunman associate, Christopher Longoria, he unfriended the shooter on Facebook for posting strong and unwelcomed pro-Atheism opinions.
>>
>>We know the Vegas shooter deliberately targeted a country music festival where the gathering sang "God Bless America" a short time earlier.
>>
>>Atheists in the West think of themselves as sophisticated and of course civilized. These latest mass murder events remind the world that Atheists do commit mass murder because of implacable hatred.
>
>Let's play 'spot the correlation'!
>
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate
>Murder rates per 100.000
>
>Denmark: 0.99
>France: 1.58
>USA: 4.88

Which just goes to show that USians are number one!

>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Importance_of_religion_by_country
>"Is religion important in your daily life?". Percentages for "yes" and
>"no" answers are listed below;
>
>
>Denmark: 19% - 80%
>France: 30% - 69%
>USA: 69% - 31%

Proof positive that America is the greatest country in the United
States (with thanks to Judah Friedlander)

[Andre G. Isaak]

In article <76b30d533n9hkkt2i...@4ax.com>,

Islam shares quite a bit with Christianity that it doesn't share with
Judaism. After all, it arose half a millennium after Christianity and
thus was influenced by Christianity in ways that Judaism wasn't.

[joecummin...@gmail.com]

On Mon, 6 Nov 2017 19:35:26 -0800 (PST), Ray Martinez
<r3p...@gmail.com> wrote:

Ray,

You are a nasty clown.

You seem to regard god as your own personal servant, sharing your
prejudices, opinions and hatred.

It isn't so long ago that you said the Lord Almighty had intervened in
an election to give Mr. Trump the victory over Mr. Obama.

When you were asked for details about this you went absolutely silent.

Let me repeat that same old question that you are incapable of
answering:

If the election of Obama didn't meet with the Lord Almighty's
approval, why did he let it happen?

In this case, if the crime committed in Texas was abhorrent to the
Lord, why did he allow it?

Don't come prattling about the Lord being in control and wishing to
teach us a lesson - with your permission, of course.



Have justificatory fun,

Joe Cummings

[Sean Dillon]

This horrific event had nothing to do with the man's religious beliefs, and everything to do with a personal grudge. People of ANY religious persuasion (including atheists) can and have committed horrific acts.

[Ray Martinez]

Sean ignores the fact reported on CNN last night that the gunman was an enraged Atheist who acted out of uncontrollable hatred for Christians. Nothing unusual here at all. Atheist means savage hatred of Christ. No shortage of examples through out history which modern Atheists do their best to deny or downplay-----that's the point.

Ray

[Sean Dillon]

A) That's not what the CNN report says. It actually says this:

"'This was not racially motivated. It wasn't over religious beliefs. There was a domestic situation going on with the family and in-laws,' said Christopher Combs, the special agent in charge of the FBI's San Antonio division."

http://www.cnn.com/2017/11/07/us/texas-church-shooting/index.html

B) Atheism does not mean a savage hatred of Christ. It means we don't think a god or gods exist. Period. And as Gandhi so eloquently put it, “I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.”

[joecummin...@gmail.com]

But you're still silent, Ray.

I'll repeat my question: If the Lord intervenes in the affairs of men
and women, as you claim, why does he let these sorts of things happen?


Have fun,


Joe Cummings

[*Hemidactylus*]

Granted, but it is not entirely certain to me, that the shooter was an
atheist, he also had a history of violence and access to guns capable of
mass shooting. I would say the guy’s inner workings that made him capable
of domestic violence and animal cruelty is more to the point than lack of
belief in God. Maybe he professed a violent form of anti-religious
violence. I don’t know, but I will own that psychopaths who are atheists
could work non-belief into their personal psychosis.

Yet it was his pulling the trigger on a semiauto rifle that was the
proximate cause of the tragedy. And the Air Force may have goofed which
facilitated this guy having access to weapons:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/checkpoint/wp/2017/11/06/the-air-force-says-it-failed-to-follow-procedures-allowing-texas-church-shooter-to-obtain-firearms/

And it appears this was a carryover from a domestic situation which may be
more relevant than his views on religion, though I don’t discount the
latter as a potential factor. But if an overzealous sports fan attacked
fans of a rival team would we blame popular sports? Atheists and the
religious argue all the time without deadly shootings being the outcome.

[Bob Casanova]

On Mon, 6 Nov 2017 23:26:58 -0800 (PST), the following
appeared in talk.origins, posted by Ray Martinez
<r3p...@gmail.com>:

Actually, that's not quite right; God says (as quoted in the
KJV Bible, which was translated by humans from other texts
written by humans, not by God, despite their self-serving
claims) "I am the Lord thy God; you shall have no other gods
before Me". Learn to parse that and you'll understand that
He only claimed to be *their* God, the God of Israel, and
implicitly acknowledged the existence of others.

> So the 911 hijackers were Atheists as well.

Yes, we know that to you anyone who doesn't believe in the
same God you envision, in the same way you do, and who
doesn't accept your particular version of the Bible as
inerrant, is an "atheist".

What a shame for you that your belief doesn't match reality.
--

Bob C.

"The most exciting phrase to hear in science,
the one that heralds new discoveries, is not
'Eureka!' but 'That's funny...'"

- Isaac Asimov

[Bob Casanova]

On Tue, 7 Nov 2017 00:01:57 -0800 (PST), the following

appeared in talk.origins, posted by Ray Martinez
<r3p...@gmail.com>:

>Go to Tehran, or Baghdad, or any city in Afghanistan, for example, blow a horn and get everyone's attention, then tell the crowd that Allah and Jehovah are the same deity and see how fast your head gets fitted with a noose.

Jews, Christians and Muslims are all "People of the Book",
and "Allah" simply means "God". Anyone with any knowledge of
Abrahamic religions knows that, and knows that Islam was
started as an offshoot/variant of Judeo/Christianity. The
fact that you are ignorant of all of that doesn't change its
truth. See:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad

From the article:

" According to Islamic doctrine, he was God's Messenger,
sent to confirm the essential teachings of monotheism
preached previously by Adam, Abraham, Moses, Jesus, and
other prophets"

[Sean Dillon]

Ray... we've been over this. A theist is anyone who believe in the existence of ANY god or gods. An atheist is anyone who does NOT believe in the existence of any god or gods. Muslims believe in a God. Therefore, they are not atheists.

This is so simple and stupidly obvious.

[Glenn]

"Bob Casanova" <nos...@buzz.off> wrote in message news:l9u30dle7gvs6a2h6...@4ax.com...

Let us know how you fare after your trip to Tehran.

[Glenn]

"Sean Dillon" <seand...@gmail.com> wrote in message news:c25dba10-539d-4f4f...@googlegroups.com...

So how do you know that all Muslims really believe in a God?

[Sean Dillon]

Well, that's sort of definitional, isn't it? Muslims are adherents to Islam. The central belief of Islam is the existence of Allah... a god. Could some "muslims" actually be closet atheists? I guess it is possible, but I don't see any particular reason to suspect the 9/11 terrorists were.

[Ray Martinez]

The God of the Bible and the God of the Koran are two completely different deities. The fact that you and a handful of other incredibly stupid Evolutionists in this thread say otherwise only demonstrates the fact of your collective, astronomic ignorance, and laughable stupidity. Just because both religions lay claim to Abraham, which isn't in dispute, shows that certain Evolutionists in this thread literally have zero knowledge in Comparative Religion 101 while having no awareness of the fact.

Again, go to the streets of Tehran, or Riyadh, or Baghdad and say Allah and Jehovah are the same deity and see how fast you end up dead either by stoning, or hanging, or dragged to death on the spot.

Ray

[Bill Rogers]

Somehow, Ray, I get the impression you've never met any Muslims face-to-face. I promise you, they are nowhere near as scary as Fox tells you they are.

[Sean Dillon]

Allah and Jehovah/Yahweh are like Jupiter and Jove. Two flavors of the same thing. If you said Jupiter and Jove were the same thing on the streets of Ancient Rome, that might have gotten you stoned to death too. And yet there is no question from the outside that they are essentially the same deity.

[Ray Martinez]

On Tuesday, November 7, 2017 at 9:40:03 AM UTC-8, Sean Dillon wrote:
> On Tuesday, November 7, 2017 at 11:20:03 AM UTC-6, Ray Martinez wrote:
> > On Tuesday, November 7, 2017 at 9:05:03 AM UTC-8, Sean Dillon wrote:
> > > On Monday, November 6, 2017 at 9:40:02 PM UTC-6, Ray Martinez wrote:
> > > > Death count will likely increase with at least 20 wounded, most in serious condition.
> > > >
> > > > CNN/Don Lemon show reports that the killer was an enraged Atheist. According to gunman associate, Christopher Longoria, he unfriended the shooter on Facebook for posting strong and unwelcomed pro-Atheism opinions.
> > > >
> > > > We know the Vegas shooter deliberately targeted a country music festival where the gathering sang "God Bless America" a short time earlier.
> > > >
> > > > Atheists in the West think of themselves as sophisticated and of course civilized. These latest mass murder events remind the world that Atheists do commit mass murder because of implacable hatred.
> > > >
> > > > Ray
> > >
> > > This horrific event had nothing to do with the man's religious beliefs, and everything to do with a personal grudge. People of ANY religious persuasion (including atheists) can and have committed horrific acts.
> > >
> >
> > Sean ignores the fact reported on CNN last night that the gunman was an enraged Atheist who acted out of uncontrollable hatred for Christians. Nothing unusual here at all. Atheist means savage hatred of Christ. No shortage of examples through out history which modern Atheists do their best to deny or downplay-----that's the point.
> >
> > Ray
>
> A) That's not what the CNN report says. It actually says this:
>
> "'This was not racially motivated. It wasn't over religious beliefs. There was a domestic situation going on with the family and in-laws,' said Christopher Combs, the special agent in charge of the FBI's San Antonio division."
>

ONCE AGAIN, Sean ignores the fact seen in the OP, which I watched live on CNN last night. This fact falsifies the claim seen above by an FBI agent who has ignored the report on CNN/Don Lemon as well.

We have a named person who said live on CNN last night that he unfriended the shooter on Facebook for posting strong and unwelcomed pro-Atheism opinions.

Sean is simply confirming the claim of fact that Atheists suppress all facts that say they are cold blooded killers. Atheist regimes are responsible for murdering hundreds of millions persons in the 20th century alone. If they would lie about easily verifiable mass murder events then how much more would they lie about complicated scientific evidence offered as falsifying Genesis?

> http://www.cnn.com/2017/11/07/us/texas-church-shooting/index.html
>
> B) Atheism does not mean a savage hatred of Christ. It means we don't think a god or gods exist. Period. And as Gandhi so eloquently put it, “I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.”
>

Walking into a church unaware and murdering 26 people with an assault rifle, including shooting children in the face, supports the meaning of Atheism as "savagely against Christianity."

I do understand why you are denying/lying; you believe lying is justified to protect the image of your godless worldview. We can't expect you to admit. Hell, if your kind would commit mass murder then lying is the proverbial cake walk. The reason why Atheism was disreputable and denied in Victorian times, by many, was because Atheists were considered liars. Only a liar would deny the existence of God.

Ray

[Malte Runz]

On Tue, 07 Nov 2017 07:52:46 -0500, jillery <69jp...@gmail.com>
wrote:

>On Tue, 07 Nov 2017 12:34:27 +0100, Malte Runz
><noyo...@notgetting.it> wrote:
>
>>On Mon, 6 Nov 2017 19:35:26 -0800 (PST), Ray Martinez
>><r3p...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>Death count will likely increase with at least 20 wounded, most in serious condition.
>>>
>>>CNN/Don Lemon show reports that the killer was an enraged Atheist. According to gunman associate, Christopher Longoria, he unfriended the shooter on Facebook for posting strong and unwelcomed pro-Atheism opinions.
>>>
>>>We know the Vegas shooter deliberately targeted a country music festival where the gathering sang "God Bless America" a short time earlier.
>>>
>>>Atheists in the West think of themselves as sophisticated and of course civilized. These latest mass murder events remind the world that Atheists do commit mass murder because of implacable hatred.
>>
>>Let's play 'spot the correlation'!
>>
>>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate
>>Murder rates per 100.000
>>
>>Denmark: 0.99
>>France: 1.58
>>USA: 4.88
>
>
>Which just goes to show that USians are number one!

Nobody beats El Salvador ('The Savior'!): 108.64 (and 83% -16%)

>
>
>>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Importance_of_religion_by_country
>>"Is religion important in your daily life?". Percentages for "yes" and
>>"no" answers are listed below;
>>
>>
>>Denmark: 19% - 80%
>>France: 30% - 69%
>>USA: 69% - 31%
>
>
>Proof positive that America is the greatest country in the United
>States (with thanks to Judah Friedlander)

I thought it was the Congo...

--
Malte Runz

[Sean Dillon]

On Tuesday, November 7, 2017 at 3:45:04 PM UTC-6, Ray Martinez wrote:
> On Tuesday, November 7, 2017 at 9:40:03 AM UTC-8, Sean Dillon wrote:
> > On Tuesday, November 7, 2017 at 11:20:03 AM UTC-6, Ray Martinez wrote:
> > > On Tuesday, November 7, 2017 at 9:05:03 AM UTC-8, Sean Dillon wrote:
> > > > On Monday, November 6, 2017 at 9:40:02 PM UTC-6, Ray Martinez wrote:
> > > > > Death count will likely increase with at least 20 wounded, most in serious condition.
> > > > >
> > > > > CNN/Don Lemon show reports that the killer was an enraged Atheist. According to gunman associate, Christopher Longoria, he unfriended the shooter on Facebook for posting strong and unwelcomed pro-Atheism opinions.
> > > > >
> > > > > We know the Vegas shooter deliberately targeted a country music festival where the gathering sang "God Bless America" a short time earlier.
> > > > >
> > > > > Atheists in the West think of themselves as sophisticated and of course civilized. These latest mass murder events remind the world that Atheists do commit mass murder because of implacable hatred.
> > > > >
> > > > > Ray
> > > >
> > > > This horrific event had nothing to do with the man's religious beliefs, and everything to do with a personal grudge. People of ANY religious persuasion (including atheists) can and have committed horrific acts.
> > > >
> > >
> > > Sean ignores the fact reported on CNN last night that the gunman was an enraged Atheist who acted out of uncontrollable hatred for Christians. Nothing unusual here at all. Atheist means savage hatred of Christ. No shortage of examples through out history which modern Atheists do their best to deny or downplay-----that's the point.
> > >
> > > Ray
> >
> > A) That's not what the CNN report says. It actually says this:
> >
> > "'This was not racially motivated. It wasn't over religious beliefs. There was a domestic situation going on with the family and in-laws,' said Christopher Combs, the special agent in charge of the FBI's San Antonio division."
> >
>
> ONCE AGAIN, Sean ignores the fact seen in the OP, which I watched live on CNN last night. This fact falsifies the claim seen above by an FBI agent who has ignored the report on CNN/Don Lemon as well.
>
> We have a named person who said live on CNN last night that he unfriended the shooter on Facebook for posting strong and unwelcomed pro-Atheism opinions.

Yes, but that doesn't mean that that is what the shooting was about. By all indications, the shooting was precipitated by a family conflict.

> Sean is simply confirming the claim of fact that Atheists suppress all facts that say they are cold blooded killers. Atheist regimes are responsible for murdering hundreds of millions persons in the 20th century alone. If they would lie about easily verifiable mass murder events then how much more would they lie about complicated scientific evidence offered as falsifying Genesis?

When did I EVER say that atheist regimes have not been responsible for atrocities? Of course they have. But then, so are many non-atheist regimes.

>
> > http://www.cnn.com/2017/11/07/us/texas-church-shooting/index.html
> >
> > B) Atheism does not mean a savage hatred of Christ. It means we don't think a god or gods exist. Period. And as Gandhi so eloquently put it, “I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.”
> >
>
> Walking into a church unaware and murdering 26 people with an assault rifle, including shooting children in the face, supports the meaning of Atheism as "savagely against Christianity."

No, it certainly doesn't. This shooting wasn't about atheism, it was about a family feud. As the agent from the FBI (who has actually examined the situation first-hand) affirms. And even if the killing HAD been about atheism -- for the shooter -- that wouldn't mean that other atheists share his feelings.

>
> I do understand why you are denying/lying; you believe lying is justified to protect the image of your godless worldview. We can't expect you to admit. Hell, if your kind would commit mass murder then lying is the proverbial cake walk. The reason why Atheism was disreputable and denied in Victorian times, by many, was because Atheists were considered liars. Only a liar would deny the existence of God.
>
> Ray

I'm not lying about anything Ray. This guy was by all indications an atheist. But the evidence suggests that the reason for the shooting was that he was pathologically angry at another member of his family, not that he was somehow motivated to kill by atheism.

Further, "atheism" isn't a religion, or a group of any kind. Atheism is just a position on a single metaphysical question. There are a wide variety of people who believe there is no such thing as gods. And yes, of course, in a category that broad, there are going to be bad apples, just as there are bad apples within the Christian church, and within any other religion.

And no... I'm not lying when I say I don't think God exists... I honestly don't think any such thing exists. I would be a liar if I pretended otherwise. I bear no anger or hatred toward theists, I just don't happen to agree with them. I live a peaceful and ethical life, as do most of the atheists I have ever met. So please keep your bigoted bullshit to yourself.

[Bruce Stephens]

On 07/11/2017 21:25, Sean Dillon wrote:
> Allah and Jehovah/Yahweh are like Jupiter and Jove. Two flavors of the same thing. If you said Jupiter and Jove were the same thing on the streets of Ancient Rome, that might have gotten you stoned to death too. And yet there is no question from the outside that they are essentially the same deity.

Violence between differing flavours of Christianity isn't entirely unknown.

(Anyway, at least we have the wisdom of your president to put it in
perspective:
<http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/donald-trump-japan-emperor-akihito-texas-mass-shooting-visit-shinzo-abe-sutherland-springs-a8041391.html>.)

[Ray Martinez]

Sean, an Atheist, wants Jehovah and Allah to be the same deity because he wants to lump Christianity in with Islamic terror/mass murder. My definition of Atheism to mean "savagely against Christianity" supported once more by the hateful deed of an Atheist.

Ray

[Ray Martinez]

Again, I understand why you're downplaying the fact that the shooter was unfriended by a person on Facebook for preaching Atheism.

You're unwilling to acknowledge publicly the objective fact that Atheists hate Christianity, that is, the religion that says Atheists will burn eternally in hell for denying the existence of the Genesis Creator and His Son.

Ray

[Bill Rogers]

Ray, it's simply not an objective fact that atheists hate Christianity. I don;t believe in Christianity, but I like plenty of Christians. I like lots of the music, art, and literature inspired by Christianity. It does not bother me in the least that some Christians think atheists will burn in Hell, except to the extent that it is sometimes an unfortunate burden on fundamentalist Christians whose loved one have left the faith. I don't want Christianity to be established as a state-sponsored religion, any more than I want any other religion to be established. Lots of Christians have a decent moral sense and behave well to the people around them. I've no reason to hold their religion against them.

You have an unfortunate, limited mindset that makes you imagine all sorts of terrors and dangers and hostilities in the world that are not there, at least not anywhere near the extent you imagine them to be. It's an unfortunate, unhappy way to live and it's not at all a necessary part of being a Christian.

Of course, you'll say I'm dishonestly hiding my burning rage at Christianity, but why would I do that? I'm more than happy to reveal my burning rage at the incompetent, narcissistic, white nationalist in the White House. But I have no similar rage at Christianity.

[Malte Runz]

On Tue, 7 Nov 2017 13:17:55 -0800 (PST), Ray Martinez
<r3p...@gmail.com> wrote:

>The God of the Bible and the God of the Koran are two completely different deities. ...

Incredible! Both of them created a Universe and human prototypes
called Adam and Eve. What are the odds!

> The fact that you and a handful of other incredibly stupid Evolutionists in this thread say otherwise only demonstrates the fact of your collective, astronomic ignorance, and laughable stupidity. ...

Personally I don't give damn whether or not you, or anybody else for
that matter, believe they are the same god.


> ... Just because both religions lay claim to Abraham, which isn't in dispute, shows that certain Evolutionists in this thread literally have zero knowledge in Comparative Religion 101 while having no awareness of the fact

>
>Again, go to the streets of Tehran, or Riyadh, or Baghdad and say Allah and Jehovah are the same deity and see how fast you end up dead either by stoning, or hanging, or dragged to death on the spot.

How would that work in White City, AL? Both barrels?

Funny thing. I used google maps to find a town with a, let's say,
suitable name, and when I went to 'street view' in White City, first
thing I saw was this:
http://tinyurl.com/y8nbcblh

--
Malte Runz

[Sean Dillon]

Yes he was. That doesn't mean that's what the shooting was about. It sounds like the guy just generally had aggression issues.

>
> You're unwilling to acknowledge publicly the objective fact that Atheists hate Christianity, that is, the religion that says Atheists will burn eternally in hell for denying the existence of the Genesis Creator and His Son.

I'm sure some atheists hate Christianity. Others don't. I don't. Atheists aren't a cohesive group. (Mind you, I'm not to fond of YOUR hate-filled version of Christianity, Ray.)

>
> Ray

[Ray Martinez]

I've defined "Atheism" to mean "savagely against Christianity.

In Greek the alpha prefix acts to negate theism----"againstness." It doesn't mean or entail "lack of belief" but "against belief."

Robert Edmund Grant and Robert Knox were two Atheists and of course transmutationists who influenced a young Charles Darwin.

Darwin biographers Desmond & Moore:

https://books.google.com/books?id=A31Izksd2I0C&printsec=frontcover&dq=life+of+a+tormented+evolutionist&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjB1pX-wa3XAhUCr1QKHShKAZMQ6AEIKDAA#v=onepage&q=savagely&f=false

Both Knox and Grant are described as "savagely anti-Christian" (1991:40).

Ray

[Sean Dillon]

No, Christendom has plenty of its own terror and mass murder to answer for. I don't need to lump it in with Islam for that. Most Christians, most Muslims, and -- yes -- most atheists rightly abhor these acts of terror and murder, REGARDLESS of the religious beliefs of the perpetrator.

It is simply obvious from the outside that Christianity and Islam are worshiping two different versions of the same God, in much the same way that Greeks and Romans respectively worshiped Jove and Jupiter. Your desire to distance yourself from this reality only suggests to me that you have some deeply off-base and bigoted ideas about the Islamic world, as a whole.

I am not savagely against Christianity. I AM savagely against your bigotry though.

[*Hemidactylus*]

Did they shoot anybody?

[Öö Tiib]

You whine how me and others are stupid "Evolutionists" for several
sentences. Such ad-hominems show that you have nothing to say but
want to. Likely your whole position is miserable fly poop. You still
fail to address any of the facts I posted above just deny it.
Read again. Most Muslims believe that they worship same God as
Christians (and Jews). etc.

>
> Again, go to the streets of Tehran, or Riyadh, or Baghdad and say Allah and Jehovah are the same deity and see how fast you end up dead either by stoning, or hanging, or dragged to death on the spot.

Why you say that Muslims whom I meet there are like zombies angry
and bloodthirsty? When I don't break any laws (like for example by
being intoxicated there) then it is extremely unlikely that I will be
punished. Like I said most Muslims already believe that they worship
same God as Christians just that Christians do it very wrongly. Also
it is about 1000 times more likely to become attacked by some robber
in New York than in Riyadh.

[Sean Dillon]

On Tuesday, November 7, 2017 at 4:55:03 PM UTC-6, Ray Martinez wrote:
> I've defined "Atheism" to mean "savagely against Christianity.

Atheism already has a definition, and that isn't it.

>
> In Greek the alpha prefix acts to negate theism----"againstness." It doesn't mean or entail "lack of belief" but "against belief."

No, a- is not "against" it is merely "not". "Against" would be ANTI-theism.


From Dictionary.com:

"a-
...
prefix meaning "not," from Latin a-, short for ab "away from" (e.g. avert), or its cognate, Greek a-, short for apo "away from, from,""

"anti-
...
word-forming element meaning "against, opposed to, opposite of, instead," from Old French anti- and directly from Latin anti-, from Greek anti "against, opposite, instead of,""

See the difference? Theism is belief in theos... a god or gods. Atheism is NOT believing in a god or gods. ANTI-theism is being AGAINST a god or gods.

>
> Robert Edmund Grant and Robert Knox were two Atheists and of course transmutationists who influenced a young Charles Darwin.
>
> Darwin biographers Desmond & Moore:
>
> https://books.google.com/books?id=A31Izksd2I0C&printsec=frontcover&dq=life+of+a+tormented+evolutionist&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjB1pX-wa3XAhUCr1QKHShKAZMQ6AEIKDAA#v=onepage&q=savagely&f=false
>
> Both Knox and Grant are described as "savagely anti-Christian" (1991:40).

They may have been savagely anti-Christian. That doesn't mean that atheism itself is. Atheism is just an opinion on ONE SINGLE ISSUE: whether or not deity exists. That is ALL it is.

>
> Ray

[Ray Martinez]

Sean, an Atheist, says Christians are known to commit mass murder, which is false: A person cannot be following Christ while committing mass murder. It's Sean's implacable hatred of Christianity, also known as Atheism, that causes him to portray persons who commit mass murder as following Christ.

My definition of "Atheism" to mean "savagely against Christianity" shown true once again.

Ray

[*Hemidactylus*]

Strange you avoided my posts where I openly considered his putative atheism
and potential as an associated factor in the shooting. Not good for your
narrative?

>
> You're unwilling to acknowledge publicly the objective fact that Atheists
> hate Christianity, that is, the religion that says Atheists will burn
> eternally in hell for denying the existence of the Genesis Creator and His Son.
>

Sounds more like the stock Angry Atheist characters Kevin Sorbo has been
playing than something that describes the many atheists I have met over the
years. And there is a difference between hating the sin versus the sinner.
Atheists might dislike the ideological impact religions have had on
adherents and society and still like the adherents. Hating the effects of a
religion is not sufficient state to lead to violent behavior.

Sure there are unhinged atheists capable of misdeeds. There have for
instance been outbreaks of misogyny in movement atheism and blogosphere.

There are firebrand confrontational atheists, but that’s different from
advocating or enacting violence. There are also ecumenical atheists who
work with liberal believers on church/state and social justice issues. You
don’t strike me as an ecumenical type. And I don’t draw generalizations
about Christians from your behavior here.

[Ray Martinez]

Common far-left politics: Refuse to commensurately acknowledge the ravenous crimes of Islamic peoples and nations. Christians are routinely murdered in their countries, the Bible is banned, which Atheists secretly approve; women are possessions----legally raped and mutilated, gays are summarily executed, government operates by Koranic decree. Yes, Bill and his kind are terrified. They've given in to Islamic blackmail and decided to live life on their knees, hoping the Muslim notices, feels appeased, and decides to leave us alone.

Thank God a real American is now President, and not Barack Hussein Obama or his Secretary of State.

Ray

[Bill Rogers]

You know, Ray, plenty of mainstream Muslims use the same (incorrect, in my view) argument that you use. Just as you say that no Christian could commit mass murder because nobody could be following Christ while committing mass murder, they will say that there are no Islamic terrorists, because terrorism is un-Islamic. Neither of those arguments work for me. Like Christianity, Islam has its violent adherents; neither Christians nor Muslims can define away violence done by their co-religionists.

[Bill Rogers]

No Ray, I'm not afraid of Muslims. I lived among them for 5 years. While there are certainly religious nutjobs among them who give Islam a bad name (just as you give Christianity a bad name), the overwhelming majority were friendly, generous, and easy to work with. You are far, far, far more likely to be killed by a non-Muslim American, or in a car crash, than by those ravenous Muslims Fox news keeps trying to scare you with.

[Ray Martinez]

On Tuesday, November 7, 2017 at 4:55:03 AM UTC-8, jillery wrote:
> On Mon, 6 Nov 2017 23:26:58 -0800 (PST), Ray Martinez

> <r3p...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >On Monday, November 6, 2017 at 9:50:03 PM UTC-8, jillery wrote:
> >> On Mon, 6 Nov 2017 19:35:26 -0800 (PST), Ray Martinez
> >> <r3p...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> >Death count will likely increase with at least 20 wounded, most in serious condition.
> >> >
> >> >CNN/Don Lemon show reports that the killer was an enraged Atheist. According to gunman associate, Christopher Longoria, he unfriended the shooter on Facebook for posting strong and unwelcomed pro-Atheism opinions.
> >> >
> >> >We know the Vegas shooter deliberately targeted a country music festival where the gathering sang "God Bless America" a short time earlier.
> >> >
> >> >Atheists in the West think of themselves as sophisticated and of course civilized. These latest mass murder events remind the world that Atheists do commit mass murder because of implacable hatred.
> >> >
> >> >Ray
> >>
> >>
> >> You mean like the 9/11 hijackers... oh wait... nevermind.
> >>
> >>
> >

> >Yes, good and accurate comparison. The Bible is redundantly clear: no other deities exist except the biblical God. So the 911 hijackers were Atheists as well.
> >
> >Ray
>
>

> More of your silly word games. Islam traces its roots to Abraham and
> Ishmael. Its traditions and practices have more in common with
> Judaism than either have with Christianity.

>
> --
> I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.
>
> Evelyn Beatrice Hall
> Attributed to Voltaire

Jill and several other Evolutionists, in this topic, reveal that they interpret the claiming of Abraham, by both religions, means the deity of the Bible and the deity of the Koran are the same deity. This is laughable ignorance coupled with zero understanding of basic Comparative Religion 101. Again, Evolutionists are shown to think illogically.

Ray

[Ray Martinez]

I've always agreed with that argument because it's basically true; in the case of Christianity, it's absolutely true.

>
Neither of those arguments work for me. Like Christianity, Islam has its violent adherents; neither Christians nor Muslims can define away violence done by their co-religionists.
>

Anyone can claim to be a Christian, Bill. You refuse to acknowledge because the bias of your worldview hates Christianity. It's of no surprise to see an Atheist say they believe a person is a Christian based only on their spoken claim! Never-mind actions that contradict and falsify, like mass murder.

No one can produce any evidence that says Christ condoned violence----quite the contrary, He **specifically forbade violence.** You haven't a leg to stand on. Therefore one cannot say a person who murders was following Christ.

Ray

[Ray Martinez]

On Tuesday, November 7, 2017 at 9:45:03 AM UTC-8, joecummin...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Tue, 7 Nov 2017 09:17:20 -0800 (PST), Ray Martinez
> <r3p...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >On Tuesday, November 7, 2017 at 9:05:03 AM UTC-8, Sean Dillon wrote:

> >> On Monday, November 6, 2017 at 9:40:02 PM UTC-6, Ray Martinez wrote:
> >> > Death count will likely increase with at least 20 wounded, most in serious condition.
> >> >
> >> > CNN/Don Lemon show reports that the killer was an enraged Atheist. According to gunman associate, Christopher Longoria, he unfriended the shooter on Facebook for posting strong and unwelcomed pro-Atheism opinions.
> >> >
> >> > We know the Vegas shooter deliberately targeted a country music festival where the gathering sang "God Bless America" a short time earlier.
> >> >
> >> > Atheists in the West think of themselves as sophisticated and of course civilized. These latest mass murder events remind the world that Atheists do commit mass murder because of implacable hatred.
> >> >
> >> > Ray
> >>

> >> This horrific event had nothing to do with the man's religious beliefs, and everything to do with a personal grudge. People of ANY religious persuasion (including atheists) can and have committed horrific acts.
> >>
> >
> >Sean ignores the fact reported on CNN last night that the gunman was an enraged Atheist who acted out of uncontrollable hatred for Christians. Nothing unusual here at all. Atheist means savage hatred of Christ. No shortage of examples through out history which modern Atheists do their best to deny or downplay-----that's the point.
> >
> >Ray

> But you're still silent, Ray.
>
> I'll repeat my question: If the Lord intervenes in the affairs of men
> and women, as you claim, why does he let these sorts of things happen?
>
>
> Have fun,
>
>
> Joe Cummings

Intervention does not mean every time.

The Bible records the event where King Saul murdered the Lord's priests because they happen to be in the same place where David was hiding from him. God chose not to intervene. Yet other times He does intervene. I think the reason God did not intervene in the instance of His priests is because He warned the people NOT to want a king to rule over them. God said the king would be corrupt, but they refused to listen and demanded that they be like heathen nations and have a king rule over them.

Ray

[Ray Martinez]

On Tuesday, November 7, 2017 at 2:55:03 AM UTC-8, Bill Rogers wrote:

> On Monday, November 6, 2017 at 10:40:02 PM UTC-5, Ray Martinez wrote:
> > Death count will likely increase with at least 20 wounded, most in serious condition.
> >
> > CNN/Don Lemon show reports that the killer was an enraged Atheist. According to gunman associate, Christopher Longoria, he unfriended the shooter on Facebook for posting strong and unwelcomed pro-Atheism opinions.
> >
> > We know the Vegas shooter deliberately targeted a country music festival where the gathering sang "God Bless America" a short time earlier.
> >
> > Atheists in the West think of themselves as sophisticated and of course civilized. These latest mass murder events remind the world that Atheists do commit mass murder because of implacable hatred.
> >
> > Ray
>

> Of course Ray, all murders everywhere are committed by atheists, because if you commit a murder you are, by definition, an atheist. [snip....]
>

One is certainly not a Christian following Christ.

Ray

[Bill Rogers]

Christ **specifically forbade violence** but he made an exception for the pilots fire bombing Dresden, and killing newborns and young children, because that was just punishment for the sins of Hitler and the adult Germans, right? That's more or less the same argument that Osama bin Laden made to justify the killing of American non-combatants (otherwise prohibited under Islam, according to most Muslim scholars).


>
> Ray

[jillery]

On Tue, 07 Nov 2017 06:49:09 -0600, "Andre G. Isaak"
<agi...@gm.invalid> wrote:

>In article <76b30d533n9hkkt2i...@4ax.com>,
> jillery <69jp...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 6 Nov 2017 23:26:58 -0800 (PST), Ray Martinez

>> <r3p...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> >On Monday, November 6, 2017 at 9:50:03 PM UTC-8, jillery wrote:
>> >> On Mon, 6 Nov 2017 19:35:26 -0800 (PST), Ray Martinez
>> >> <r3p...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> >Death count will likely increase with at least 20 wounded, most in
>> >> >serious condition.
>> >> >
>> >> >CNN/Don Lemon show reports that the killer was an enraged Atheist.
>> >> >According to gunman associate, Christopher Longoria, he unfriended the
>> >> >shooter on Facebook for posting strong and unwelcomed pro-Atheism
>> >> >opinions.
>> >> >
>> >> >We know the Vegas shooter deliberately targeted a country music festival
>> >> >where the gathering sang "God Bless America" a short time earlier.
>> >> >
>> >> >Atheists in the West think of themselves as sophisticated and of course
>> >> >civilized. These latest mass murder events remind the world that Atheists
>> >> >do commit mass murder because of implacable hatred.
>> >> >
>> >> >Ray
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> You mean like the 9/11 hijackers... oh wait... nevermind.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >

>> >Yes, good and accurate comparison. The Bible is redundantly clear: no other
>> >deities exist except the biblical God. So the 911 hijackers were Atheists as
>> >well.
>> >
>> >Ray
>>
>>

>> More of your silly word games. Islam traces its roots to Abraham and
>> Ishmael. Its traditions and practices have more in common with
>> Judaism than either have with Christianity.
>

>Islam shares quite a bit with Christianity that it doesn't share with
>Judaism. After all, it arose half a millennium after Christianity and
>thus was influenced by Christianity in ways that Judaism wasn't.
>
>Andre


I neither stated nor implied that Islam doesn't have things in common
with Christianity. My impression is conservative Islamic customs and
traditions are similar to customs and practices of Orthodox Judaism,
and much of the same philosophies and world views are shared by their
practitioners, save for the exceptions of God's name and who's to
blame for all of the world's problems, of course.

[Ray Martinez]

Ordinary Atheism viewpoint: Hitler said he was a Christian therefore he was. Never-mind the fact that he murdered millions in cold blood. That fact, according to Bill, is conducive with following Christ.

The implacable hatred of Atheism seen clearly.

Ray

[jillery]

On Tue, 7 Nov 2017 15:55:13 -0800 (PST), Ray Martinez

Ray, do you think the God of the Torah is the same as the God of your
Bible? If so, on what basis do you claim the God of the Koran is
different?

[jillery]

On Tue, 7 Nov 2017 14:54:20 -0800 (PST), Ray Martinez
<r3p...@gmail.com> wrote:

>I've defined "Atheism" to mean "savagely against Christianity.

The above is too ad hoc and self-serving even for you.

[Ray Martinez]

Bill, an Atheist, says America was a Christian nation during WW2. Are we a Christian nation presently?

All civilians who died in WW2 belong to the nation that started the war. You don't understand that? The concept is ensconced in Western law: During the commission of a crime if any person dies as a result the fault lies with the perpetrator of the crime, and no one else, including, for example, a police officer who mistakenly shoots and kills the wrong person, or runs over a pedestrian and kills them while pursuing the fleeing suspect.

Ray

[snip....]

[Bill Rogers]

Show the quote or retract.

>Are we a Christian nation presently?

No. Remember the First Amendment?

>
> All civilians who died in WW2 belong to the nation that started the war. You don't understand that?

Not remotely true. Many British, French, Belgian, Dutch, Russian, Polish, etc civilians died in the war.

>The concept is ensconced in Western law: During the commission of a crime if any person dies as a result the fault lies with the perpetrator of the crime, and no one else, including, for example, a police officer who mistakenly shoots and kills the wrong person, or runs over a pedestrian and kills them while pursuing the fleeing suspect.

But you were not talking about Western law, you were talking about how Jesus **specifically forbade violence**.

If a policeman fired automatic weapons into a crowd in order to stop a fleeing felon, the felon might be charged with all the resulting deaths, but the policeman would be guilty, too. Nobody else's sin gives you license to sin.

You can make perhaps a moral case for strategic bombing, even if it entails civilian casualties, but it is a much more complicated case than "Hitler started it."

>
> Ray
>
> [snip....]

[jillery]

On Tue, 7 Nov 2017 17:10:14 -0800 (PST), Ray Martinez
<r3p...@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Tuesday, November 7, 2017 at 3:45:02 PM UTC-8, Bill Rogers wrote:
>> On Tuesday, November 7, 2017 at 6:15:03 PM UTC-5, Ray Martinez wrote:
>> > On Tuesday, November 7, 2017 at 2:55:03 PM UTC-8, Sean Dillon wrote:
>> > > On Tuesday, November 7, 2017 at 4:15:04 PM UTC-6, Ray Martinez wrote:
>> > > > On Tuesday, November 7, 2017 at 1:30:03 PM UTC-8, Sean Dillon wrote:
>> > > > > On Tuesday, November 7, 2017 at 3:20:03 PM UTC-6, Ray Martinez wrote:

How easy it is for you, to label anything you disagree with as
Atheist. Apparently it keeps your mind well relaxed.

[Ernest Major]

On 08/11/2017 01:49, Bill Rogers wrote:
>> All civilians who died in WW2 belong to the nation that started the war. You don't understand that?
> Not remotely true. Many British, French, Belgian, Dutch, Russian, Polish, etc civilians died in the war.
>

You have to remember that Ray has trouble with the English language; I
think that what he intends is to claim that the responsibility for all
the civilian deaths during WW2 belongs to the Axis regardless of the
facts of individual cases.

--
alias Ernest Major

[Andre G. Isaak]

In article <03757d5c-0895-4015...@googlegroups.com>,

Ray Martinez <r3p...@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Tuesday, November 7, 2017 at 1:30:03 PM UTC-8, Sean Dillon wrote:
> > On Tuesday, November 7, 2017 at 3:20:03 PM UTC-6, Ray Martinez wrote:

No, Ray. He wants to lump Christianity in with Islam as two religions
sharing a common heritage. Islam no more condones terrorism or mass
murder than Catholicism condones IRA pub bombings or Protestantism
condones KKK lynchings.

Trying to learn about Islam from ISIL makes about as much sense as
trying to learn about Christianity from the Klan or from Westboro
Baptist Church (or from Ray Martinez, for that matter).

[Sean Dillon]

Ray:

A Christian is any person who believes in and worships the teachings of Jesus Christ. Your "follower of" definition is bullshit, directly aimed at making it linguistically impossible for Christians to sin. Christians DO sin. In fact, Christianity holds this truth as a central precept. Christianity is a personal IDENTITY, not a label that disappears any time a person sins. In fact, a person remains a Christian, no matter HOW egregious their sin, if they maintain belief in the teachings of Jesus Christ. Sorry, you don't get you substitute your own bullshit definition. "Christian" already has a definition.

Timothy McVeigh was a Christian. He committed mass murder. The Inquisitors were Christians. They committed mass murder. The Puritans circa the witch hysteria were Christians. They committed mass murder. That's a very shallow sampling of a very deep pool. I honestly don't give a rat's ass whether YOU accept these people as Christians. They were. Deal with it.

"Atheism" -- logically, linguistically, and historically -- means only a lack of belief in the existence of a god or gods. You don't get to substitute your own bullshit definition. "Atheism" already has a definition.

I don't hate Christianity. I only hate bigotry in the NAME of Christianity, of the sort you practice.

[Ray Martinez]

What I said was a reply to what you said, so the quote you ask for can be easily found directly above my comment. You couldn't figure that out? YOU said Christ made exceptions THEN you listed alleged Allied crimes which means you equated the leader of the Allies, America, as representing Christ. In this context I said what I said.

>
> >Are we a Christian nation presently?
>
> No. Remember the First Amendment?
>
> >
> > All civilians who died in WW2 belong to the nation that started the war. You don't understand that?
> >
> Not remotely true. Many British, French, Belgian, Dutch, Russian, Polish, etc civilians died in the war.
>

Not in dispute. Again, all civilian deaths belong to Nazi Germany because they started the war.

> >The concept is ensconced in Western law: During the commission of a crime if any person dies as a result the fault lies with the perpetrator of the crime, and no one else, including, for example, a police officer who mistakenly shoots and kills the wrong person, or runs over a pedestrian and kills them while pursuing the fleeing suspect.
>
> But you were not talking about Western law, you were talking about how Jesus **specifically forbade violence**.
>

SHEESH! You have the context completely jumbled. My point about Western law was made in the context of supporting the claim that the initiator or perpetrator is responsible for the death of all innocents or civilians.

> If a policeman fired automatic weapons into a crowd in order to stop a fleeing felon, the felon might be charged with all the resulting deaths, but the policeman would be guilty, too. Nobody else's sin gives you license to sin.
>

Of course I agree that an officer cannot do that. Nazi Germany was responsible for all deaths in WW2. I acknowledge that a handful of exceptions might exist but I said handful.

> You can make perhaps a moral case for strategic bombing, even if it entails civilian casualties, but it is a much more complicated case than "Hitler started it."
>

Hitler did indeed start the war for the absolute worst possible reasons. Don't go where you're going, Bill.

> >
> > Ray
> >
> > [snip....]

Ray

[Ray Martinez]

Why did you stop? Please tell the group how I misrepresented Christianity like Westboro or the Klan are known to do?

Ray

[Ray Martinez]

Which is an excellent definition of "following Christ." Good job, Sean.

> Your "follower of" definition is bullshit, directly aimed at making it linguistically impossible for Christians to sin.
>

By your own definition, seen above, one cannot be following Christ and sinning at the exact same time. One cannot be said to be in compliance with the teachings of Christ while committing murder. One cannot be worshipping Christ while committing murder. If one truly worships the teaching of Christ, as per your definition, then one cannot be planning or committing murder at the same time because the teachings of Christ strictly forbid violence, but do in fact say one must turn the other cheek. Surely you know what that means?

> Christians DO sin.

Daily, hourly, yes indeed.

> In fact, Christianity holds this truth as a central precept.

Agreed; its gospel truth.

> Christianity is a personal IDENTITY, not a label that disappears any time a person sins.
>

Now you've contradicted your own definition, which I have agreed with. A person is not worshipping or complying with the teachings of Christ while placing a bomb near a children's nursery then detonating it.

> In fact, a person remains a Christian, no matter HOW egregious their sin, if they maintain belief in the teachings of Jesus Christ.
>

If a person maintains allegiance to Christ but places a bomb in front of a nursery then what they maintain cannot be true. You don't understand that?

> Sorry, you don't get you substitute your own bullshit definition. "Christian" already has a definition.
>
> Timothy McVeigh was a Christian. He committed mass murder.

Sean says a mass murderer was following Christ, worshipping His teachings, when he committed mass murder. Said belief is based solely on what the mass murderer said while ignoring his heinous actions, and while ignoring the fact that the teachings of Christ forbid murder and the killing of children. Sean just said that Christ led a person to murder children. When we remember that Sean is an Atheist his blasphemy against Christ receives explanation immediately.

> The Inquisitors were Christians. They committed mass murder. The Puritans circa the witch hysteria were Christians. They committed mass murder. That's a very shallow sampling of a very deep pool. I honestly don't give a rat's ass whether YOU accept these people as Christians. They were. Deal with it.
>

Apply what I just said above to these other examples.

> "Atheism" -- logically, linguistically, and historically -- means only a lack of belief in the existence of a god or gods. You don't get to substitute your own bullshit definition. "Atheism" already has a definition.
>

Sean holds on to his subjective definition of Atheism. Ask any Greek scholar about what I said concerning the alpha prefix.

> I don't hate Christianity. I only hate bigotry in the NAME of Christianity, of the sort you practice.
>

You hate Christianity savagely. Seen clearly when you said a mass murderer remained a follower Christ while butchering children.

Ray

[Mark Isaak]

It's too bad, Ray, that from all your contact with Christianity, you
never learned the first thing about it.

--
Mark Isaak eciton (at) curioustaxonomy (dot) net
"Ignorance, allied with power, is the most ferocious enemy justice can
have." - James Baldwin

[Ray Martinez]

Since Mark is the quintessential Atheist his disapproval of my Christianity equates to high quality evidence that I am following Christ. When an Atheist approves of a certain Christian one can be sure that said Christian is not really following Christ.

Ray

[Andre G. Isaak]

In article <e4ebd08b-4345-4fef...@googlegroups.com>,

Res ipsa loquitur.

[Andre G. Isaak]

In article <vim40d9b5941o66t5...@4ax.com>,

I suppose it depends on what things you focus on, but I've always seen
Islam as being much closer to Christianity than it is to Judaism. The
big difference I see between Judaism and Christianity/Islam is that the
latter two place much less focus on "worldly" things and instead
emphasize what comes after this life. Additionally, Islam adopts the
moral dualism which developed in Christianity but which was largely
absent from Judaism (i.e. the two both recognize a Hell alongside
Heaven, a Satan alongside god, etc.)

[joecummin...@gmail.com]

On Tue, 7 Nov 2017 16:24:23 -0800 (PST), Ray Martinez

Well, isn't that just fine and dandy?

So it's up to the believer to decide the reasons for god's
intervention or non-intervention?

And, of course, for Ray the reasons are of a political nature:

God intervened on behalf of Mr. Trump against Mr. Obama, and thus made
himself look like a paid-up mamber of the GOP, and the faithful (and
Ray) cried "Halleluiah."

Ray, I suggest you put down your never-to-be-finished work on Darwin
and go out and meet people; ordinary people. It's glaringly obvious
from your posts here that you have extremely limited social
experience, and this doesn't augur well for your balance of mind.

"Atheists are haters of Christ and savage killers."

Was Bertrand Russell a savage killer? Did he go out and kill during
WWI or did he go to prison because he wanted no part in the slaughter
carried out by two contestants who both claimed to be carrying out
god's work?

For your information , one side said "Gott mit uns," and the other
side said "For God, king and country."

I don't say "Get a life, Ray," I say "Meet a variety of people, and
see how your prejudices (born of ignorance) measure against them."


Have social fun,


Joe Cummings

[Bill Rogers]

Good Lord, Ray, I was parodying *your* position. You claim Christ **specifically forbade violence** and yet you justify the Dresden bombing. And you don't even try to justify it on utilitarian grounds, like maybe it was necessary to prevent more innocent deaths, instead you argue either that it's justified as revenge (what happened to "turn the other cheek"?) or you imply that the Allies had no agency in doing it since it came after Hitler's crimes.

>
> >
> > >Are we a Christian nation presently?
> >
> > No. Remember the First Amendment?
> >
> > >
> > > All civilians who died in WW2 belong to the nation that started the war. You don't understand that?
> > >
> > Not remotely true. Many British, French, Belgian, Dutch, Russian, Polish, etc civilians died in the war.
> >
>
> Not in dispute. Again, all civilian deaths belong to Nazi Germany because they started the war.

We might partly agree on this. Yes, Hitler is in a sense responsible for all the bad stuff that happened during the war, regardless of who did it. But the individuals who killed civilians, on either side are ALSO responsible. Hitler's crimes did not give the Allies a free pass to fire bomb civilians simply as a matter of revenge. "each man's duty is the king's, but each man's soul is his own." Everybody is responsible for their own acts.

>
> > >The concept is ensconced in Western law: During the commission of a crime if any person dies as a result the fault lies with the perpetrator of the crime, and no one else, including, for example, a police officer who mistakenly shoots and kills the wrong person, or runs over a pedestrian and kills them while pursuing the fleeing suspect.
> >
> > But you were not talking about Western law, you were talking about how Jesus **specifically forbade violence**.
> >
>
> SHEESH! You have the context completely jumbled. My point about Western law was made in the context of supporting the claim that the initiator or perpetrator is responsible for the death of all innocents or civilians.

The initiator is indeed responsible, but so are the people who actually did the bad actions, no matter what side they were on.

>
> > If a policeman fired automatic weapons into a crowd in order to stop a fleeing felon, the felon might be charged with all the resulting deaths, but the policeman would be guilty, too. Nobody else's sin gives you license to sin.
> >
>
> Of course I agree that an officer cannot do that. Nazi Germany was responsible for all deaths in WW2. I acknowledge that a handful of exceptions might exist but I said handful.

Nazi Germany was responsible for all deaths only in the sense you mentioned - they started the chain of events. But the individuals who did the killing on both sides are ALSO responsible. Some killings were obviously morally justifiable as self-defense (at least from my atheist, non-pacifist point of view) but others were war crimes.

Just to go back to your criminal law analogy. If I help you rob a bank, say by acting as a lookout, and you kill someone during the robbery, then, yes, I can be charged with murder. But so can you.

>
> > You can make perhaps a moral case for strategic bombing, even if it entails civilian casualties, but it is a much more complicated case than "Hitler started it."
> >
>
> Hitler did indeed start the war for the absolute worst possible reasons. Don't go where you're going, Bill.

I have no idea where you think I'm going. I'll guess that since you think only in terms of extreme dichotomies you think that either someone must be totally on board and supportive of everything the Allies did in WWII or must be totally against it. Life is more complicated than that.

But I really have no clue where you think I was going, since your inference will be based on the assumption that I am a ravenous atheist full of hatred for Christianity.

As Joe Cummings says, you really need to get out and meet more real people.

>
> > >
> > > Ray
> > >
> > > [snip....]
>
> Ray

[Sean Dillon]

Yes, but a Christian remains a Christian, even if they are behaving sinfully. Even VERY sinfully.

>
> > Your "follower of" definition is bullshit, directly aimed at making it linguistically impossible for Christians to sin.
> >
>
> By your own definition, seen above, one cannot be following Christ and sinning at the exact same time. One cannot be said to be in compliance with the teachings of Christ while committing murder. One cannot be worshipping Christ while committing murder. If one truly worships the teaching of Christ, as per your definition, then one cannot be planning or committing murder at the same time because the teachings of Christ strictly forbid violence, but do in fact say one must turn the other cheek. Surely you know what that means?

One cannot be "following Christ" and sinning, but one can indeed be a Christian and be sinning. A lawyer remains a lawyer even when he is not actually in a courtroom practicing law. A Christian remains a Christian even when he is not successfully following the commandments of Christianity. It isn't a switch that turns on and off. As long as the person continues to believe in the divinity of Jesus Christ, that person remains a Christian, regardless of how he is behaving.

>
> > Christians DO sin.
>
> Daily, hourly, yes indeed.
>
> > In fact, Christianity holds this truth as a central precept.
>
> Agreed; its gospel truth.
>
> > Christianity is a personal IDENTITY, not a label that disappears any time a person sins.
> >
>
> Now you've contradicted your own definition, which I have agreed with. A person is not worshipping or complying with the teachings of Christ while placing a bomb near a children's nursery then detonating it.

No, I haven't contradicted myself at all. I did NOT say that a Christian is a person who is complying with Christ's teachings, or even that a Christian is a person who is actively worshiping Christ RIGHT THIS SECOND. A Christian is a person who -- in general -- believes in and worships Christ. It is an OVERALL identity, not something that fluctuates moment to moment, based on their current behavior.

>
> > In fact, a person remains a Christian, no matter HOW egregious their sin, if they maintain belief in the teachings of Jesus Christ.
> >
>
> If a person maintains allegiance to Christ but places a bomb in front of a nursery then what they maintain cannot be true. You don't understand that?

I acknowledge that maintaining allegiance to Christ while bombing a nursery isn't RATIONAL. But it is indeed POSSIBLE. Following Christ CORRECTLY is not a qualifying factor in determining whether a person is a Christian.

>
> > Sorry, you don't get you substitute your own bullshit definition. "Christian" already has a definition.
> >
> > Timothy McVeigh was a Christian. He committed mass murder.
>
> Sean says a mass murderer was following Christ, worshipping His teachings, when he committed mass murder. Said belief is based solely on what the mass murderer said while ignoring his heinous actions, and while ignoring the fact that the teachings of Christ forbid murder and the killing of children. Sean just said that Christ led a person to murder children. When we remember that Sean is an Atheist his blasphemy against Christ receives explanation immediately.

I am saying that Timothy McVeigh believed in the divinity of Jesus Christ. That makes him a Christian, period. A bad Christian, but a Christian.

>
> > The Inquisitors were Christians. They committed mass murder. The Puritans circa the witch hysteria were Christians. They committed mass murder. That's a very shallow sampling of a very deep pool. I honestly don't give a rat's ass whether YOU accept these people as Christians. They were. Deal with it.
> >
> Apply what I just said above to these other examples.
>
> > "Atheism" -- logically, linguistically, and historically -- means only a lack of belief in the existence of a god or gods. You don't get to substitute your own bullshit definition. "Atheism" already has a definition.
> >
>
> Sean holds on to his subjective definition of Atheism. Ask any Greek scholar about what I said concerning the alpha prefix.

Since we don't have a greek scholar handy, I guess we'll just have to depend on the LITERAL DICTIONARY DEFINITIONS I presented, which indicate that a- means "not" and anti- means "against". Let me give you some further examples of a- meaning "not":

atonal = not tonal
asymptomatic = not symptomatic
atypical = not typical
amoral = not moral
etc.

A- is used in all of these cases EXACTLY the way it is used in atheist, and in NONE of these cases does a- indicate being AGAINST. It merely indicates being NOT. One doesn't have to be a scholar of Greek to recognize this, though I am confident any scholar of ancient Greek would confirm it.

>
> > I don't hate Christianity. I only hate bigotry in the NAME of Christianity, of the sort you practice.
> >
>
> You hate Christianity savagely. Seen clearly when you said a mass murderer remained a follower Christ while butchering children.

I do not hate Christianity. I merely recognize that Christianity is not sufficient to prevent bad people from doing bad things. People can believe in the divinity of Jesus Christ and still do some awful shit.

>
> Ray

[*Hemidactylus*]

Sean Dillon <seand...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
[snip]

>
> Ray:
>
> A Christian is any person who believes in and worships the teachings of
> Jesus Christ. Your "follower of" definition is bullshit, directly aimed
> at making it linguistically impossible for Christians to sin. Christians
> DO sin. In fact, Christianity holds this truth as a central precept.
> Christianity is a personal IDENTITY, not a label that disappears any time
> a person sins. In fact, a person remains a Christian, no matter HOW
> egregious their sin, if they maintain belief in the teachings of Jesus
> Christ. Sorry, you don't get you substitute your own bullshit definition.
> "Christian" already has a definition.
>
> Timothy McVeigh was a Christian. He committed mass murder. The
> Inquisitors were Christians. They committed mass murder. The Puritans
> circa the witch hysteria were Christians. They committed mass murder.
> That's a very shallow sampling of a very deep pool. I honestly don't give
> a rat's ass whether YOU accept these people as Christians. They were. Deal with it.
>
> "Atheism" -- logically, linguistically, and historically -- means only a
> lack of belief in the existence of a god or gods. You don't get to
> substitute your own bullshit definition. "Atheism" already has a definition.
>
> I don't hate Christianity. I only hate bigotry in the NAME of
> Christianity, of the sort you practice.
>

Ray acts as an opportunist to use a horrific shooting as a means to his
preconceived end of painting atheists in *toto* in a very negative light.
As soon as that utility evaporates he moves on without a hint of compassion
for the victims or understanding of the tragedy.

Meanwhile this article from CNN highlights new developments:

http://www.cnn.com/2017/11/07/us/texas-church-shooting/index.html

“The man who killed more than 20 people at a small Texas church escaped
from a mental health facility five years ago after sneaking guns onto an
Air Force base and making threats against commanders, according to a police
report.”

And I think this section is dense with stuff needing unpacking:

“Kelley, who had a record of violence, was consumed by a dispute with his
mother-in-law and spent time posting anti-God and pro-gun statements on
Facebook in the months before the shooting, according to officials, as well
as acquaintances and former classmates.”

Ray would no doubt focus exclusively on the anti-God statements part as it
confirms his narrative. He achieves closure on the topic and that’s it.
Don’t disrupt with other considerations.

By his definition Christians are incapable of atrocity. By my definition
atheists merely lack God belief. Ray displays his bias by adding “savage
hatred of Christ” to the definition. So Ray is a definition wielding
essentialist?

And I had read that Timothy McVeigh (you mentioned above) had identified
as an agnostic. But that needs to be timelined:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timothy_McVeigh

“McVeigh was raised Roman Catholic.[89] During his childhood, he and his
father attended Mass regularly.[90] McVeigh was confirmed at the Good
Shepherd Church in Pendleton, New York, in 1985.[91] In a 1996 interview,
McVeigh professed belief in "a God", although he said he had "sort of lost
touch with" Catholicism and "I never really picked it up, however I do
maintain core beliefs."[89] In McVeigh's biography American Terrorist,
released in 2002, he stated that he did not believe in a hell and that
science is his religion.[92][93] In June 2001, a day before the execution,
McVeigh wrote a letter to the Buffalo News identifying himself as agnostic.
However, he took the Last Rites, administered by a priest, just before his
execution.[94][95][96][97][98][99] Father Charles Smith ministered to
McVeigh in his last moments in death row.[100]”

[*Hemidactylus*]

There are aspects of Christianity I at least strongly dislike. Revelation
for instance. I can pick out some stuff attributed to Jesus worthy of
merit. The divinity and miracle stuff I can do without. After the Great
Schisms, there is a growing amount of crap I find repulsive in movement
atheism.

So Sean, do you find it productive moving forward, engaging in prolonged
back and forth with a callous opportunistic demagogue who wordplays with
eccentric definitions and is summarily incapable of engaging reality? You
know he will never budge an inch. I will add megalomania as he had long
promised a Scholarly book that would utterly destroy us all. Yet he has
shown no signs of moving into the 20th century not to mention the modern
synthesis. Hopeless.

[*Hemidactylus*]

What if an atheist approves of aspects of Jesus’s teachings? Jesus
therefore wasn’t following himself and was an atheist? What if Jesus came
to you in a vision and told you to stop being a divisive a**hole? Would he
be lumped with all the Other false Christians you actively Hate?

[Sean Dillon]

Productive of what? Change in Ray? No, I harbor no such illusions. Productive of personal satisfaction? Yes, I take personal satisfaction in demonstrating the paucity of a bigot's logic.

[Sean Dillon]

In that case, McVeigh may be a poor choice of example. But clearly, he was only that... an example. There is no question that some professing, believing Christians can and do commit horrific acts.

[*Hemidactylus*]

I can’t recall exactly how McVeigh was cast as agnostic and it may have
been in Armstrong’s _Fields of Blood_ or how nuanced it was (does anyone
have access to Armstrong’s book?) But the above timeline makes me wonder if
McVeigh was still a believer (however weak) when he committed his act of
atrocity. And I wonder how Devin Kelley’s adoption of nonbelief timelines
in relation to other events.

[*Hemidactylus*]

Just expressing frustration at Ray’s typical tactic of stonewalling.

[Bob Casanova]

On Tue, 7 Nov 2017 13:55:41 -0700, the following appeared in
talk.origins, posted by "Glenn" <g...@invalid.invalid>:

>
>"Bob Casanova" <nos...@buzz.off> wrote in message news:l9u30dle7gvs6a2h6...@4ax.com...
>> On Tue, 7 Nov 2017 00:01:57 -0800 (PST), the following
>> appeared in talk.origins, posted by Ray Martinez
>> <r3p...@gmail.com>:

>>>Go to Tehran, or Baghdad, or any city in Afghanistan, for example, blow a horn and get everyone's attention, then tell the crowd that Allah and Jehovah are the same deity and see how fast your head gets fitted with a noose.
>>

>> Jews, Christians and Muslims are all "People of the Book",
>> and "Allah" simply means "God". Anyone with any knowledge of
>> Abrahamic religions knows that, and knows that Islam was
>> started as an offshoot/variant of Judeo/Christianity. The
>> fact that you are ignorant of all of that doesn't change its
>> truth. See:
>>
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad
>>
>> From the article:
>>
>> " According to Islamic doctrine, he was God's Messenger,
>> sent to confirm the essential teachings of monotheism
>> preached previously by Adam, Abraham, Moses, Jesus, and
>> other prophets"

>Let us know how you fare after your trip to Tehran.

Anything relevant or intelligent to add? No? OK.
--

Bob C.

"The most exciting phrase to hear in science,
the one that heralds new discoveries, is not
'Eureka!' but 'That's funny...'"

- Isaac Asimov

[Bob Casanova]

On Tue, 7 Nov 2017 22:11:05 +0000, the following appeared in
talk.origins, posted by Bruce Stephens
<bruce.r....@gmail.com>:

>On 07/11/2017 21:25, Sean Dillon wrote:
>> Allah and Jehovah/Yahweh are like Jupiter and Jove. Two flavors of the same thing. If you said Jupiter and Jove were the same thing on the streets of Ancient Rome, that might have gotten you stoned to death too. And yet there is no question from the outside that they are essentially the same deity.
>

>Violence between differing flavours of Christianity isn't entirely unknown.

OK, in the "Most Radical Understatement" contest you're the
clear winner. Kudos!

[Bob Casanova]

On Tue, 7 Nov 2017 14:54:20 -0800 (PST), the following
appeared in talk.origins, posted by Ray Martinez
<r3p...@gmail.com>:

>I've defined "Atheism" to mean "savagely against Christianity.

Your personal definition sucks, since it twists the actual
meaning out of recognition, and since no one else would
accept it. Just sayin'...

[Bob Casanova]

On Tue, 07 Nov 2017 11:18:53 -0700, the following appeared
in talk.origins, posted by Bob Casanova <nos...@buzz.off>:

>On Mon, 6 Nov 2017 23:26:58 -0800 (PST), the following

>appeared in talk.origins, posted by Ray Martinez
><r3p...@gmail.com>:
>

>>On Monday, November 6, 2017 at 9:50:03 PM UTC-8, jillery wrote:
>>> On Mon, 6 Nov 2017 19:35:26 -0800 (PST), Ray Martinez
>>> <r3p...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> >Death count will likely increase with at least 20 wounded, most in serious condition.
>>> >
>>> >CNN/Don Lemon show reports that the killer was an enraged Atheist. According to gunman associate, Christopher Longoria, he unfriended the shooter on Facebook for posting strong and unwelcomed pro-Atheism opinions.
>>> >
>>> >We know the Vegas shooter deliberately targeted a country music festival where the gathering sang "God Bless America" a short time earlier.
>>> >
>>> >Atheists in the West think of themselves as sophisticated and of course civilized. These latest mass murder events remind the world that Atheists do commit mass murder because of implacable hatred.
>>> >
>>> >Ray
>>>
>>>
>>> You mean like the 9/11 hijackers... oh wait... nevermind.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.
>>>
>>> Evelyn Beatrice Hall
>>> Attributed to Voltaire
>>
>>Yes, good and accurate comparison. The Bible is redundantly clear: no other deities exist except the biblical God.
>

>Actually, that's not quite right; God says (as quoted in the
>KJV Bible, which was translated by humans from other texts
>written by humans, not by God, despite their self-serving
>claims) "I am the Lord thy God; you shall have no other gods
>before Me". Learn to parse that and you'll understand that
>He only claimed to be *their* God, the God of Israel, and
>implicitly acknowledged the existence of others.

[Crickets...]

>> So the 911 hijackers were Atheists as well.
>

>Yes, we know that to you anyone who doesn't believe in the
>same God you envision, in the same way you do, and who
>doesn't accept your particular version of the Bible as
>inerrant, is an "atheist".
>
>What a shame for you that your belief doesn't match reality.

[Crickets...]

[Bob Casanova]

On Tue, 07 Nov 2017 11:27:42 -0700, the following appeared

in talk.origins, posted by Bob Casanova <nos...@buzz.off>:

>On Tue, 7 Nov 2017 00:01:57 -0800 (PST), the following

>appeared in talk.origins, posted by Ray Martinez
><r3p...@gmail.com>:
>

>>On Monday, November 6, 2017 at 11:45:02 PM UTC-8, Andre G. Isaak wrote:
>>> In article <127697a0-7699-4ad6...@googlegroups.com>,
>>> Ray Martinez <r3p...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>

>>> > On Monday, November 6, 2017 at 9:50:03 PM UTC-8, jillery wrote:
>>> > > On Mon, 6 Nov 2017 19:35:26 -0800 (PST), Ray Martinez
>>> > > <r3p...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> > >
>>> > > >Death count will likely increase with at least 20 wounded, most in serious
>>> > > >condition.
>>> > > >
>>> > > >CNN/Don Lemon show reports that the killer was an enraged Atheist.
>>> > > >According to gunman associate, Christopher Longoria, he unfriended the
>>> > > >shooter on Facebook for posting strong and unwelcomed pro-Atheism
>>> > > >opinions.
>>> > > >
>>> > > >We know the Vegas shooter deliberately targeted a country music festival
>>> > > >where the gathering sang "God Bless America" a short time earlier.
>>> > > >
>>> > > >Atheists in the West think of themselves as sophisticated and of course
>>> > > >civilized. These latest mass murder events remind the world that Atheists
>>> > > >do commit mass murder because of implacable hatred.
>>> > > >
>>> > > >Ray
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > > You mean like the 9/11 hijackers... oh wait... nevermind.
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > > --
>>> > > I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to
>>> > > say it.
>>> > >
>>> > > Evelyn Beatrice Hall
>>> > > Attributed to Voltaire
>>> >
>>> > Yes, good and accurate comparison. The Bible is redundantly clear: no other

>>> > deities exist except the biblical God. So the 911 hijackers were Atheists as
>>> > well.
>>> >

>>> > Ray
>>>
>>> The god of the Quran is the same god as the biblical god -- both are the
>>> god of Abraham.
>
>>Go to Tehran, or Baghdad, or any city in Afghanistan, for example, blow a horn and get everyone's attention, then tell the crowd that Allah and Jehovah are the same deity and see how fast your head gets fitted with a noose.
>
>Jews, Christians and Muslims are all "People of the Book",
>and "Allah" simply means "God". Anyone with any knowledge of
>Abrahamic religions knows that, and knows that Islam was
>started as an offshoot/variant of Judeo/Christianity. The
>fact that you are ignorant of all of that doesn't change its
>truth. See:
>
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad
>
>From the article:
>
>" According to Islamic doctrine, he was God's Messenger,
>sent to confirm the essential teachings of monotheism
>preached previously by Adam, Abraham, Moses, Jesus, and
>other prophets"

[Glenn]

"Bob Casanova" <nos...@buzz.off> wrote in message news:sqi60dp7uelr0m04q...@4ax.com...

Make sure you take along a copy of the Wiki article for show and tell.

[Ray Martinez]

Yes, Bob & his ilk keep ignoring our point because they don't have the integrity to admit that they are dead wrong. To even make the suggestion would cost a person their life on the streets of ANY Muslim city. They are taught that the God of America is Satan. Then they are shown pictures of what goes on in Las Vegas, New York, and Los Angeles.

Bob & and his ilk are shown inexcusably naive, having completely misunderstood the undisputed fact that both religions lay claim to Abraham. And their support sources don't even say the same deity. All Bob & his ilk have done is post links and quotes that say both religions lay claim to Abraham, which was never in dispute.

Allah and Jehovah are two different deities (Duh!); Muslims and Judeo-Christians agree. Jehovah didn't receive the Prophet Mohammed into heaven on a winged horse, simply ridiculous! Allah didn't resurrect His Son Jesus from the dead, even more ridiculous!

Dear Bob: You've had each arm and leg cut off, but not your head and tongue.

Ray

[Bill Rogers]

Ray, where do you get your information on Muslim cities? Ever been to one? Ever lived in one? Ever met an actual Muslim human being. I have, and I can tell you that they are not like what the fear mongers at Fox tell you they are like. I've mingled with crowds coming out of the central mosque in Cairo right after Friday prayers, I've worked side by side with plenty of Muslims. They are just ordinary people. They have their nutjob minority just as Christianity has its nutjob minority.

Well here's one example. I was stuck in a car in Cairo with US diplomatic license plates. My friend who was driving had gotten out to run an errand, and I was sitting there alone. A poor Egyptian Muslim workman saw me sitting in the car; he was eating his lunch, sitting on the curb, and he offered to share his food with me. That's the sort of terrible anti-American hostility I ran into all the time in the Muslim world.

You are afraid, way too afraid. There are some terrorists out there, but this nightmare vision Fox has drilled into your head is simply wrong.

[Ray Martinez]

Bob STILL doesn't get it.

Nobody ever denied that Islam holds Judeo-Christian figures as lesser prophets! The point is, are you listening? YOUR SOURCE DOESN'T EVEN SAY WHAT YOU ARE USING THE SOURCE TO SAY! Again, you're using the aforementioned fact that Islam holds Judeo-Christian figures as lesser prophets to support the same deity. But your source doesn't say that----YOU SAY THAT----you've completely misunderstood what that means. It doesn't say same deity and it doesn't mean same deity----YOU ASSERT SAME DEITY without justification.

Advice: Don't use Wikipedia as a source, Bob. Do you know what the concept of "wiki" entails? It means anyone with a computer can create the information. This includes my neighbor who is a deranged alcoholic. And your quote is a bad quote to begin with. In the quote monotheism is only talking about Allah. In the Islamic faith no other deity exists. To teach otherwise in a Muslim nation will promptly cost one their life. To say Allah and Jehovah are the same is to say that Allah is Satan.

I'm done.

I mean it.

Ray

[jillery]

On Wed, 08 Nov 2017 11:33:04 -0700, Bob Casanova <nos...@buzz.off>
wrote:

>On Tue, 07 Nov 2017 11:18:53 -0700, the following appeared
>in talk.origins, posted by Bob Casanova <nos...@buzz.off>:
>
>>On Mon, 6 Nov 2017 23:26:58 -0800 (PST), the following
>>appeared in talk.origins, posted by Ray Martinez
>><r3p...@gmail.com>:
>>
>>>On Monday, November 6, 2017 at 9:50:03 PM UTC-8, jillery wrote:
>>>> On Mon, 6 Nov 2017 19:35:26 -0800 (PST), Ray Martinez
>>>> <r3p...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> >Death count will likely increase with at least 20 wounded, most in serious condition.
>>>> >
>>>> >CNN/Don Lemon show reports that the killer was an enraged Atheist. According to gunman associate, Christopher Longoria, he unfriended the shooter on Facebook for posting strong and unwelcomed pro-Atheism opinions.
>>>> >
>>>> >We know the Vegas shooter deliberately targeted a country music festival where the gathering sang "God Bless America" a short time earlier.
>>>> >
>>>> >Atheists in the West think of themselves as sophisticated and of course civilized. These latest mass murder events remind the world that Atheists do commit mass murder because of implacable hatred.
>>>> >
>>>> >Ray
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> You mean like the 9/11 hijackers... oh wait... nevermind.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>

>>>Yes, good and accurate comparison. The Bible is redundantly clear: no other deities exist except the biblical God.
>>
>>Actually, that's not quite right; God says (as quoted in the
>>KJV Bible, which was translated by humans from other texts
>>written by humans, not by God, despite their self-serving
>>claims) "I am the Lord thy God; you shall have no other gods
>>before Me". Learn to parse that and you'll understand that
>>He only claimed to be *their* God, the God of Israel, and
>>implicitly acknowledged the existence of others.
>
>[Crickets...]
>
>>> So the 911 hijackers were Atheists as well.
>>
>>Yes, we know that to you anyone who doesn't believe in the
>>same God you envision, in the same way you do, and who
>>doesn't accept your particular version of the Bible as
>>inerrant, is an "atheist".
>>
>>What a shame for you that your belief doesn't match reality.
>
>[Crickets...]

A point I should have made before, but better late than never: Even
if Allah and Jehovah were different deities, that would not mean
Muslims were atheists, any more than it would mean Christians were
atheists. They would both still believe in a god, just not the same
one.

Or, using Richard Dawkins' definition, they are both atheist to the
other's god.

But either way, the distinction isn't meaningful.

[jillery]

On Wed, 08 Nov 2017 00:21:07 -0600, "Andre G. Isaak"

That's certainly one way to group them. Another way to group them is
based on whether they think Christ is God incarnate. Or the dates of
their claimed origins. Either way doesn't matter to me.

[Ray Martinez]

Did you happen to stand on a milk crate and declare that Allah and Jehovah are the same deity?

Ray

[Öö Tiib]

You are dead wrong yourself and even your argument is rather unusual.
Are you so proud of what goes on in Las Vegas, New York, and Los Angeles?
I've heard that also some American Christians (for example Amish's) scare
their kids to sleep with what goes on in Las Vegas, New York, and Los

Angeles.

>
> Bob & and his ilk are shown inexcusably naive, having completely misunderstood the undisputed fact that both religions lay claim to Abraham. And their support sources don't even say the same deity. All Bob & his ilk have done is post links and quotes that say both religions lay claim to Abraham, which was never in dispute.

Not only Abraham. He is same God and the whole story is basically same
about Adam, Eve, Noah, Moses, Virgin Mary and Jesus.

>
> Allah and Jehovah are two different deities (Duh!); Muslims and Judeo-Christians agree. Jehovah didn't receive the Prophet Mohammed into heaven on a winged horse, simply ridiculous! Allah didn't resurrect His Son Jesus from the dead, even more ridiculous!

Yes, all Muslims trust that Christians tell some things about The God
and some things about His great prophets (like Jesus or Muhammad) very
wrongly. There are no surprises for Muslims in it.

Anyone who has read something written by you knows for sure that at
least one person who claims being Christian is pathological liar.
So they think that perhaps such bad people have just written lies
into Christian scripture. However they are sure that Christians,
Jews and Muslims worship same God. That is written so in Quran.
It is very hard to imagine Muslim who thinks that Ray Martinez is
correct and Quran is wrong.

>
> Dear Bob: You've had each arm and leg cut off, but not your head and tongue.

You are desperately violent there. Where did Jesus suggest to play
being dumb and violent?

[Bill Rogers]

In short, you have not, in fact, lived or traveled in the Muslim world, or personally known any Muslims. And so your views are simply the result of the Islamophobic fear-mongering of Fox News not of any personal experience. You are way too afraid...talk about living on your knees.

[Andre G. Isaak]

In article <1244de82-e7a5-4b12...@googlegroups.com>,

Ray Martinez <r3p...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Allah and Jehovah are two different deities (Duh!); Muslims and
> Judeo-Christians agree. Jehovah didn't receive the Prophet Mohammed into
> heaven on a winged horse, simply ridiculous! Allah didn't resurrect His Son
> Jesus from the dead, even more ridiculous!

From the point of view of Christian Arabs, Allah did resurrect his son
Jesus. From the point of view of Muslim Arabs, Jesus was the second most
important prophet of Allah, but was not his son. Jews don't ascribe any
significance to Jesus whatsoever. And yet you are willing to accept that
Jews and Christians worship the same god. Why is that?

Andre

P.S. with respect to your claim that my claim would get me killed in the
Muslim world, I have discussed this with muslims from Pakistan, from
Syria, from Saudi Arabia, from Jordan, from Palestine, and from Egypt
and none objected even remotely to the claim that Christians and Muslims
worship the same god. These discussions took place both inside and
outside the Muslim world. The Quran even explicitly states that the god
of the Christians, the Jews, and the Samaritans is the same god as the
god of Islam.

[*Hemidactylus*]

I got very drunk with a Muslim. Fun times.

[Sean Dillon]

I take it he wasn't particular devout?