What micro evolution can do.

[RonO]

The journal Science has an article on part of what went into the
evolution of echo location in whales and how there was convergence in
the evolution of one gene (prestin) when echo location was evolving in
both bats and whales. The paper is free to view at this time.

http://advances.sciencemag.org/content/4/10/eaat8821?utm_campaign=toc_advances_2018-10-05&et_rid=338065219&et_cid=2411637


The creationists in denial will often admit that micro evolution is a
fact, but for no real reason they claim that macro evolution is somehow
different. They never have an example of what is different about macro
evolution. Whales were a favorite example of denialist creationists
claiming that this type of macro evolution could not have happened.
Then in the 1990's we discovered a region of the earth that had
preserved the evolution of whales. When whales were first evolving
India was out around where Madegascar is now. The continents drifted
and over millions of years India crashed into Asia and formed mountain
ranges of what was once coastal sediments. It turned out that this
allowed the sedimentary layers that contained the ancestral whale
fossils to be where we could eventually get to them instead of being
burried under miles of more sediment or eroded away. These ancient
coastal sediments produced the transitional whale fossils that shut up
the creationists for a while. For some reason known only to the ID
perps they tried to resurrect the whale denial argument a couple of
years ago, but it flopped and no one hears about it anymore. The AIG
even has pakicetus on their Ark so they may believe that whales evolved
by micro evolution after the flood. It would save them from having
whale tanks on the ark to preserve all the animals with the "breath of
life" from the raging flood.

The bottom line is that if India had not crashed into Asia millions of
years ago we would not have the transitional fossils that we have of
whales, and the creationists would still be using the bogus whale
argument in spite of the DNA evidence.

The science paper has evidence that micro evolution was obviously
happening when whales evolved. Macro evolution is a strange thing to
deny at this time. The latest generation of ID perps have creationists
among them that accept biological evolution as fact. Guys like Behe and
Denton know enough about the molecular biology to know that descent with
modification is fact, and that life has been evolving on this planet for
billions of years. You can read about why that is their understanding
in the paper above. In the science of biological evolution speciation
is considered to be a macro evolutionary event. Once speciation occurs
a lineage is free to go its own separate way and will usually become
more and more different from what it once was and its nearest relatives.
The anti evolution creationists have their own definition of macro
evolution (any evolution that they want to deny happened) and it hasn't
amounted to anything in decades.

It is sort of strange that IDiots will lap up the useless nonsense about
irreducible complexity, and not take Behe seriously when he admits that
it has all been biological evolution for the past 400 million years or
so. Behe can't see anything that his designer has done for a very long
time in the evolution of life on earth and he even admitted that his
designer might be dead, and would obviously not be available to
demonstrate any current designing. We are talking about micro evolution
accounting for every thing since bony fish evolved. Amphibians,
reptiles, mammals, and humans evolving all without any noticeable
designer intervention.

We have a thread going on genetic variation within a species. An
amazing amount of variation can accumulate in a species by micro
evolutionary events. Any two relatively unrelated humans will vary from
each other by around 1 base-pair in a thousand. This is variation
within our species and is a slightly different set of differences for
each pair compared. Once speciation occurs differences between species
begin to be fixed so that all the individuals except recent mutations
are different in between species comparisons. We can see this process
starting with Neanderthals. Neanderthals separated from the modern
human lineage around a half a million years ago. Modern humans whose
ancestors never left Africa differ from Neanderthals at around 1 in
every 3,000 base-pairs. These can be considered fixed differences
because (except for new mutation since fixation) these variants do not
occur in the African modern human population. Chimps separated from the
human lineage 4.5 to 8 million years ago and the difference between
chimps and humans/Neanderthals are around 1 to 2 base-pairs out of 100
for the same bits of non coding DNA. So you can see that this type of
micro evolution just keeps happening and the changes accumulate over time.

This type of change can be observed in the whale data. In the paper
above they compare bats and whales. They can track the accumulated
differences between the lineages and produce phylogenies, and these
phylogenies tell them something else besides how different the lineages
are. When they look at how the prestin gene has evolved over time, what
they find is that there was no convergence (above chance) of the
sequence between bats and whales until after whales had evolved. The
more recent mutations affecting the gene have accumulated after toothed
whales diverged from the other extant whale lineage. So the gene
sequence was just getting more and more different as the two lineages
(bats and whales) diverged from their common ancestor until for a
relatively short period of time when echo location was evolving in
whales the prestin gene accumulated mutations that were the same that
occurred in the bat prestin gene. Functional analysis tells the
researchers that these mutations do function to improve the hearing of
higher frequency sounds that allow more accurate echo location.

The point is that these hearing mutations were occurring during the
normal micro evolutionary events that have separated whales from bats
for millions of years. There is no meaningful difference between micro
and macro evolution in the creationist sense.

Ron Okimoto

[satoshi]

Is that what you did to your brain?

[Bob Casanova]

On Sat, 6 Oct 2018 18:28:19 -0700 (PDT), the following
appeared in talk.origins, posted by satoshi
<biggda...@gmail.com>:

>Is that what you did to your brain?

Talking to yourself again?
--

Bob C.

"The most exciting phrase to hear in science,
the one that heralds new discoveries, is not
'Eureka!' but 'That's funny...'"

- Isaac Asimov

[satoshi]

You are the puppeteer here
Stop projecting

[vtand...@gmail.com]

On Friday, October 5, 2018 at 6:30:03 PM UTC-7, Ron O wrote:
> The journal Science has an article on part of what went into the
> evolution of echo location in whales and how there was convergence in
> the evolution of one gene (prestin) when echo location was evolving in
> both bats and whales. The paper is free to view at this time.
>
> http://advances.sciencemag.org/content/4/10/eaat8821?utm_campaign=toc_advances_2018-10-05&et_rid=338065219&et_cid=2411637
>
>
> The creationists in denial will often admit that micro evolution is a
> fact, but for no real reason they claim that macro evolution is somehow
> different.

Show us evidence that all creationists do this..

[RonO]

Why should I when that was not the claim. Reread what I wrote for
comprehension and try again.

Ron Okimoto

[jillery]

Your mommy called. Time to change your nappies and let the grownups
talk.

--
I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.

Evelyn Beatrice Hall
Attributed to Voltaire

[satoshi]

those who you claimed are in denial were claimed that by you.
This is evidence of my claim of course, that micro evolution is what happened to your brain, which is indistinguishable from some sort of genetic alteration!

[RonO]

Will you ever produce a reasoned argument? Why keep acting like a
moron? It has to be pretty degrading.

Ron Okimoto

[satoshi]

That is what I just did. You don't even know what reason is.


>
> Ron Okimoto

[RonO]

Why lie? Do you know how to make a claim and support that claim? It
turns out that you never understood what you were talking about.
Nowhere in the material that you have snipped out and run from do I ever
make the claim that you indicate in another thread. You were just
wrong. You should reread the initial post in this thread to see what
the actual subject was, and what the conclusions were. Lying about
reality can't help you at this time. All of your stupidity for several
days just because you didn't understand something, and were too
incompetent or dishonest to say what you were beefing about.

Ron Okimoto

>
>
>>
>> Ron Okimoto
>

[satoshi]

On Monday, October 8, 2018 at 6:00:02 PM UTC-6, Ron O wrote:
> On 10/8/2018 6:07 PM, satoshi wrote:
> > On Monday, October 8, 2018 at 4:55:03 PM UTC-6, Ron O wrote:
> >> On 10/8/2018 7:12 AM, satoshi wrote:
> >>> On Monday, October 8, 2018 at 4:35:02 AM UTC-6, Ron O wrote:
> >>>> On 10/8/2018 4:00 AM, vtand...@gmail.com wrote:
> >>>>> On Friday, October 5, 2018 at 6:30:03 PM UTC-7, Ron O wrote:
> >>>>>> The journal Science has an article on part of what went into the
> >>>>>> evolution of echo location in whales and how there was convergence in
> >>>>>> the evolution of one gene (prestin) when echo location was evolving in
> >>>>>> both bats and whales. The paper is free to view at this time.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> http://advances.sciencemag.org/content/4/10/eaat8821?utm_campaign=toc_advances_2018-10-05&et_rid=338065219&et_cid=2411637
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> The creationists in denial will often admit that micro evolution is a
> >>>>>> fact, but for no real reason they claim that macro evolution is somehow
> >>>>>> different.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Show us evidence that all creationists do this..
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Why should I when that was not the claim. Reread what I wrote for
> >>>> comprehension and try again.
> >>>>
> >>>> Ron Okimoto
> >>>
> >>> those who you claimed are in denial were claimed that by you.
> >>> This is evidence of my claim of course, that micro evolution is what happened to your brain, which is indistinguishable from some sort of genetic alteration!
> >>>
> >>
> >> Will you ever produce a reasoned argument?
> >
> > That is what I just did. You don't even know what reason is.
>
> Why lie?

So now Ron o has changed his tune and claims micro evolution would be distinguishable from designed genetic alteration.

[zencycle]

On Monday, October 8, 2018 at 7:10:02 PM UTC-4, satoshi wrote:
> >
> > Will you ever produce a reasoned argument?
>
> That is what I just did. You don't even know what reason is.

No, as usual you Misinterpreted (possibly intentionally, who knows where a twisted little shit like you gets its ideas) a statement, and now degrade the collective intelligence in this forum with nonesense on an attempt to back it up. Here's a little help, zippy:

The group Ron referenced was 'creationists in denial', not 'all creationists' like you and your little ass-buddy vtard lied about. It's basic set theory, stuff you both should have learned in 5th grade. Once you both get past an elementary school education, you might not be so quick to embarrass yourselves.

[satoshi]

I never said anything about all creationists. You are the one deceiving.
Deal with the fact of your deceit

[zencycle]

On Tuesday, October 9, 2018 at 9:35:04 AM UTC-4, satoshi wrote:
> I never said anything about all creationists.

you wrote "those who you claimed are in denial were claimed that by you." (which isn't even close to grammatically correct) in support of the vtard who wrote "Show us evidence that all creationists do this.. "

So, yeah, you did say something about 'all creationists'. Perhaps if you ever learned how to make complete sentences without spelling errors, missing punctuation, and missing words you might be able to carry on a conversation that doesn't keep crossing over to absolute gibberish.

> You are the one deceiving.
> Deal with the fact of your deceit

Deal with the fact that you're a fucking half-wit first, then we can move onto anywhere you _think_ I deceived anyone. BTW - vtard certainly isn't the horse you want to back in this race (well, maybe you want to back *up to* a horse, but I'm not one to judge in that regard).

[satoshi]

On Tuesday, October 9, 2018 at 8:30:05 AM UTC-6, zencycle wrote:
> On Tuesday, October 9, 2018 at 9:35:04 AM UTC-4, satoshi wrote:
> > I never said anything about all creationists.
>
> you wrote "those who you claimed are in denial were claimed that by you." (which isn't even close to grammatically correct) in support of the vtard who wrote "Show us evidence that all creationists do this.. "

It certainly wasn't supporting vtard...

It showed where vtard was in error, much like you...

[Bob Casanova]

On Mon, 8 Oct 2018 08:08:27 -0700 (PDT), the following

appeared in talk.origins, posted by satoshi
<biggda...@gmail.com>:

>You're bats.
>
>Now you think you are a chicken.

No, evolution can't turn bats into chickens.

[RonO]

How do you get that from what I wrote about what you wrote? You will
need to rewrite your previous claim to make it consistent with this
current claim and then demonstrate that any such thing ever happened for
what ever you think that you were talking about. Really, reread what
you wrote and try to make any sense out of it. Go for it and be precise
instead of stupid.

Ron Okimoto

[satoshi]

So now Ron o claims the micro evolution that he did to his brain can be tested and I agree; the damage from dam cough syrup abuse would show from basic tests from psychologists looking for brain damage.

[RonO]

I said to be precise instead of stupid. You could try again, but my
guess is that stupid is all that will come out.

Ron Okimoto

[satoshi]

Stop projecting

Hi from vegas

[RonO]

On 10/9/2018 8:55 PM, satoshi wrote:
> Stop projecting
>
> Hi from vegas
>

Why keep lying. You were wrong from the start. If you had just stated
your claim at the beginning you wouldn't have had to play the dishonest
idiot for days. That is on you. I repeatedly requested that you simply
state what your claim was, and once you told it to Harshman the game was
over. You were not arguing against anything in the study described in
this thread for the simple reason that this study concluded that the
simple similarity between bats and whales in the case of the prestin
gene did not reflect common descent, but it was due to convergence. If
you had a clue you would have known that you had no argument from the
beginning.

The last few days have just reflected your utter stupidity and
dishonesty. Reality will not change just because you snip and run from
it. This post will still exist tomorrow and for as long as the group is
archived.

Ron Okimoto

[Bob Casanova]

On Tue, 9 Oct 2018 20:22:07 -0500, the following appeared in
talk.origins, posted by RonO <roki...@cox.net>:

I just got a flash of the "Dilbert" in which the phrase
"Data goes in; management comes out" occurs.

[satoshi]

here he admits cartoons and comics enter his brain when reading usenet

a person can only perceive to the best of their ability and that will be it from him

[satoshi]

On Wednesday, October 10, 2018 at 4:05:04 AM UTC-7, Ron O wrote:
> On 10/9/2018 8:55 PM, satoshi wrote:
> > Stop projecting
> >
> > Hi from vegas
> >
>
> Why keep lying.

I was in las vegas when I typed that.

Stop deceiving people about my honesty

[RonO]

Your lie was about projecting when you know that the issue applies to
you. Why lie about something so obvious?

You obviously have an issue with honesty, and it is your issue. You
have to learn to deal with it. Stop lying if you don't want to becalled
a liar. Tell the truth once in a while and see what it is like.

Ron Okimoto

[satoshi]

I haven't lied at all.
You are the obvious liar.

[jillery]

What happens in vegas should stay in vegas.

[RonO]

Lying about someone else is stupid at this time. You have obviously
been a stupid incompetent fool for days. It turned out that what you
thought that you were arguing about was stupid and lame. Tragically
stupid and lame. If you want to try to claim otherwise, what do you
have to do? Not what you are doing now because it is just more of the
same stupid behavior that made you look like a stupid incompetent fool.

If you think that you ever had a valid claim, just state what it is. If
it is different from what you told Harshman, you should explain why it
is different. Once you state what your claim was you can try to figure
out why you put up all your "evidence" that was supposed to support that
claim. It should become painfully obvious that you should have stated
what your claim was at the beginning. You would not have had to make a
fool of yourself for days, and you would not have to be running from the
stupidity today.

All this means is that you should modify your behavior. If you think
that you have something to discuss, state what it is. It is also a good
idea to state why you want to discuss the subject so that anyone will
understand what you want to discuss and why. This is simple and
rational, and any competent and honest person would be able to do it, so
you should, at least, try.

Start now, or keep blundering around like the dishonest fool you have
shown yourself to be.

Ron Okimoto

[Bob Casanova]

On Wed, 10 Oct 2018 12:50:15 -0700 (PDT), the following
appeared in talk.origins, posted by satoshi
<travellin...@gmail.com>:

>On Wednesday, October 10, 2018 at 4:05:04 AM UTC-7, Ron O wrote:
>> On 10/9/2018 8:55 PM, satoshi wrote:
>> > Stop projecting
>> >
>> > Hi from vegas
>> >
>>
>> Why keep lying.
>
>I was in las vegas when I typed that.

Prove it!

>Stop deceiving people about my honesty

[Bob Casanova]

On Wed, 10 Oct 2018 12:51:11 -0700 (PDT), the following
appeared in talk.origins, posted by satoshi
<travellin...@gmail.com>:

>> "Data goes in; management comes out" occurs.

>here he admits cartoons and comics enter his brain when reading usenet
>
>a person can only perceive to the best of their ability and that will be it from him

I just got the same flash again, with "rational thought" and
"satoshi delusions" substituted for "data" and "management"
respectively.

(Don't worry about it, Stan; it's an "adult" thing and you
wouldn't understand.)

[satoshi]

Now he admits he has some kind of strange flashback occurring in his brain

[satoshi]

On Thursday, October 11, 2018 at 11:15:03 AM UTC-7, Bob Casanova wrote:
> On Wed, 10 Oct 2018 12:50:15 -0700 (PDT), the following
> appeared in talk.origins, posted by satoshi
> <travellin...@gmail.com>:
>
> >On Wednesday, October 10, 2018 at 4:05:04 AM UTC-7, Ron O wrote:
> >> On 10/9/2018 8:55 PM, satoshi wrote:
> >> > Stop projecting
> >> >
> >> > Hi from vegas
> >> >
> >>
> >> Why keep lying.
> >
> >I was in las vegas when I typed that.
>
> Prove it!
>

Weren't the shaking moving stars there then?

[Bob Casanova]

On Thu, 11 Oct 2018 16:47:57 -0700 (PDT), the following

appeared in talk.origins, posted by satoshi
<travellin...@gmail.com>:

>On Thursday, October 11, 2018 at 11:15:03 AM UTC-7, Bob Casanova wrote:
>> On Wed, 10 Oct 2018 12:50:15 -0700 (PDT), the following
>> appeared in talk.origins, posted by satoshi
>> <travellin...@gmail.com>:
>>
>> >On Wednesday, October 10, 2018 at 4:05:04 AM UTC-7, Ron O wrote:
>> >> On 10/9/2018 8:55 PM, satoshi wrote:
>> >> > Stop projecting
>> >> >
>> >> > Hi from vegas
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >> Why keep lying.
>> >
>> >I was in las vegas when I typed that.
>>
>> Prove it!

>Weren't the shaking moving stars there then?

It's *your* delusion, so you tell me. Of course, I reject
anything you say.

("shaking moving stars"?)

[Bob Casanova]

On Thu, 11 Oct 2018 11:47:48 -0700 (PDT), the following

appeared in talk.origins, posted by satoshi
<travellin...@gmail.com>:

>Now he admits...

Who "he", moron?

[satoshi]

On Friday, October 12, 2018 at 11:20:03 AM UTC-7, Bob Casanova wrote:
> On Thu, 11 Oct 2018 16:47:57 -0700 (PDT), the following
> appeared in talk.origins, posted by satoshi
> <travellin...@gmail.com>:
>
> >On Thursday, October 11, 2018 at 11:15:03 AM UTC-7, Bob Casanova wrote:
> >> On Wed, 10 Oct 2018 12:50:15 -0700 (PDT), the following
> >> appeared in talk.origins, posted by satoshi
> >> <travellin...@gmail.com>:
> >>
> >> >On Wednesday, October 10, 2018 at 4:05:04 AM UTC-7, Ron O wrote:
> >> >> On 10/9/2018 8:55 PM, satoshi wrote:
> >> >> > Stop projecting
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Hi from vegas
> >> >> >
> >> >>
> >> >> Why keep lying.
> >> >
> >> >I was in las vegas when I typed that.
> >>
> >> Prove it!
>
> >Weren't the shaking moving stars there then?
>
> It's *your* delusion

I was certainly in las vegas.

[Bob Casanova]

On Fri, 12 Oct 2018 14:49:21 -0700 (PDT), the following

appeared in talk.origins, posted by satoshi
<travellin...@gmail.com>:

>On Friday, October 12, 2018 at 11:20:03 AM UTC-7, Bob Casanova wrote:
>> On Thu, 11 Oct 2018 16:47:57 -0700 (PDT), the following
>> appeared in talk.origins, posted by satoshi
>> <travellin...@gmail.com>:
>>
>> >On Thursday, October 11, 2018 at 11:15:03 AM UTC-7, Bob Casanova wrote:
>> >> On Wed, 10 Oct 2018 12:50:15 -0700 (PDT), the following
>> >> appeared in talk.origins, posted by satoshi
>> >> <travellin...@gmail.com>:
>> >>
>> >> >On Wednesday, October 10, 2018 at 4:05:04 AM UTC-7, Ron O wrote:
>> >> >> On 10/9/2018 8:55 PM, satoshi wrote:
>> >> >> > Stop projecting
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > Hi from vegas
>> >> >> >
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Why keep lying.
>> >> >
>> >> >I was in las vegas when I typed that.
>> >>
>> >> Prove it!
>>
>> >Weren't the shaking moving stars there then?
>>
>> It's *your* delusion
>
>I was certainly in las vegas.

Prove it.

[satoshi]

On Saturday, October 13, 2018 at 10:35:03 AM UTC-7, Bob Casanova wrote:
> On Fri, 12 Oct 2018 14:49:21 -0700 (PDT), the following
> appeared in talk.origins, posted by satoshi
> <travellin...@gmail.com>:
>
> >On Friday, October 12, 2018 at 11:20:03 AM UTC-7, Bob Casanova wrote:
> >> On Thu, 11 Oct 2018 16:47:57 -0700 (PDT), the following
> >> appeared in talk.origins, posted by satoshi
> >> <travellin...@gmail.com>:
> >>
> >> >On Thursday, October 11, 2018 at 11:15:03 AM UTC-7, Bob Casanova wrote:
> >> >> On Wed, 10 Oct 2018 12:50:15 -0700 (PDT), the following
> >> >> appeared in talk.origins, posted by satoshi
> >> >> <travellin...@gmail.com>:
> >> >>
> >> >> >On Wednesday, October 10, 2018 at 4:05:04 AM UTC-7, Ron O wrote:
> >> >> >> On 10/9/2018 8:55 PM, satoshi wrote:
> >> >> >> > Stop projecting
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> > Hi from vegas
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> Why keep lying.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >I was in las vegas when I typed that.
> >> >>
> >> >> Prove it!
> >>
> >> >Weren't the shaking moving stars there then?
> >>
> >> It's *your* delusion
> >
> >I was certainly in las vegas.
>
> Prove it.
> --

Why don't you put your theory of how i got from utah to san diego

Be aware, I have a copy of the travel ticket in my email

What you gonna do, claim there is something wrong with your eyes?

[Bob Casanova]

On Sat, 13 Oct 2018 11:51:28 -0700 (PDT), the following

>Why don't you put your theory of how i got from utah to san diego

>Be aware, I have a copy of the travel ticket in my email

Prove it.

(Hint for the terminally clueless [that's you]: Posting a
link to a photo or video proves exactly *nothing*, because
it then becomes "prove that this is real and not
Photoshopped, and that it's yours and not anyone else's".
And that is the reason why your repeated demand that I and
others "prove" our identities is lame at best.)

>What you gonna do, claim there is something wrong with your eyes?

Nope.
--