Apes & Humans common ancestor
David
rely on scientific authority because I do not understand all of
biology and many other details. In fact, I did not know that apes have
a chromosome pair that we do not! I learned this in the following
video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Me245KRwIo8
Warning! Turn down the sound unless you like bad music!
I do not know if our common ancestor perhaps had 23 pairs and the apes
gained another pair or if there really was some sort of fusion. At any
rate, I'm being blinded by the science here. Can someone help me out?
On a related note, now that gene sequencing is easy, how practical
would it be to sample 1000 humans and 1000 chimps to sequence their
mitochondrial DNA and look for common ancestors? I'm guessing that
something equivalent to this has already been done, but I have no idea.
Greg G.
> I generally accept the theory of evolution as true. However, I have to
> rely on scientific authority because I do not understand all of
> biology and many other details. In fact, I did not know that apes have
> a chromosome pair that we do not! I learned this in the following
> video:
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Me245KRwIo8
>
> Warning! Turn down the sound unless you like bad music!
>
> I do not know if our common ancestor perhaps had 23 pairs and the apes
> gained another pair or if there really was some sort of fusion. At any
> rate, I'm being blinded by the science here. Can someone help me out?
>
ape species. That chromosome even has evidence of the remnants of
telemeres, the cap on the end of a chromosome. So our common ancestor
with chimpanzees had 24 pairs of chromosomes, just like all the other
apes.
The common ancestor we share with chimpanzees is not the same common
ancestor we (humans and chimps) share with gorillas. Orangutans split
off first, then gorillas, then came the human/chimpanzee split. So
chimpanzees are more closely related to humans than they are to
gorillas. Gorillas are as closely related to humans as they are to
chimpanzees, but are exactly as distantly related to orangutans as
humans and chimpanzees are.
> On a related note, now that gene sequencing is easy, how practical
> would it be to sample 1000 humans and 1000 chimps to sequence their
> mitochondrial DNA and look for common ancestors? I'm guessing that
> something equivalent to this has already been done, but I have no idea.
Even better, endogenous retroviruses (ERVs) have been mapped in ape
species. This type of virus inserts itself into a DNA string to make
copies of itself. Once in a while, a copy will get into a reproductive
cell and can be passed on to the offspring. Sometimes this copy will
become established through the entire population. It is estimated that
8% of human DNA is junk from retroviruses. The odds against such a
virus inserting itself into the same place in the DNA in two different
species and having both become established is something like billions
to one. Having many in common shows common ancestry and shows the
relative distances between different species. Humans and chimps have
more ERVs in common than either have with gorillas. Gorillas, chimps
and humans share more than any does with orangutans.
Sapient Fridge
<28a59fbe-d242-4354...@r5g2000yqb.googlegroups.com>,
David <dste...@gmail.com> writes
>I generally accept the theory of evolution as true. However, I have to
>rely on scientific authority because I do not understand all of
>biology and many other details. In fact, I did not know that apes have
>a chromosome pair that we do not! I learned this in the following
>video:
>
>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Me245KRwIo8
The errors start at about 3:20 in the video.
Chromosomes are actually rather good at lining up with *matching*
sequences and crossing over at appropriate points, the simple crossing
over at length oriented points indicated in the video simply does not
happen. The chances of two chromosomes successfully recombining with a
fused one is far higher than the video asserts.
Now there *is* a problem when the chromosomes *separate* after
recombination (and I think that is what the video author has heard about
but has misinterpreted).
The problem is due to odd numbers of chromosomes in the population and
is explained on my web page on this subject:
http://www.sapientfridge.org/chromosome_count/index.html
The advantage given by the fusion only has to be higher than this
disadvantage in order for it to spread. Once the fused chromosome
becomes dominant in the population the disadvantage vanishes.
>Warning! Turn down the sound unless you like bad music!
I rather like the music ;-)
>I do not know if our common ancestor perhaps had 23 pairs and the apes
>gained another pair or if there really was some sort of fusion.
All the evidence points to a fusion event.
>At any
>rate, I'm being blinded by the science here. Can someone help me out?
Also have a look at:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zi8FfMBYCkk
--
sapient_...@spamsights.org ICQ #17887309 * Save the net *
Grok: http://spam.abuse.net http://www.cauce.org * nuke a spammer *
Find: http://www.samspade.org http://www.netdemon.net * today *
Kill: http://mail-abuse.com http://au.sorbs.net http://spamhaus.org
Desertphile
<dste...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I generally accept the theory of evolution as true. However, I have to
> rely on scientific authority because I do not understand all of
> biology and many other details. In fact, I did not know that apes have
> a chromosome pair that we do not!
"We" who? Humans are apes: if you mean humans when you wrote "we,"
then you aren't making any sense--- you are asking why humans have
a pair of chromosomes that humans don't have.
> I learned this in the following video:
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Me245KRwIo8
You get your science from a cult? Why would you do such a silly
thing? Why don't you get your science from scientists?
> Warning! Turn down the sound unless you like bad music!
>
> I do not know if our common ancestor perhaps had 23 pairs and the apes
> gained another pair or if there really was some sort of fusion. At any
> rate, I'm being blinded by the science here. Can someone help me out?
My eight-year-old nephew understands why humans have 23 pairs and
not 24: are you really less intelligent than an average child?
Here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8FGYzZOZxMw
Go, and lie no more.
--
http://desertphile.org
Desertphile's Desert Soliloquy. WARNING: view with plenty of water
"Why aren't resurrections from the dead noteworthy?" -- Jim Rutz
David
wrote:
> On Sat, 9 Jan 2010 12:55:50 -0800 (PST), David
>
> thing? Why don't you get your science from scientists?
The video in my OP was pointed to me as a refutation of common
ancestry. But I lack the biology education to call BS on what it says.
> > I do not know if our common ancestor perhaps had 23 pairs and the apes
> > gained another pair or if there really was some sort of fusion. At any
> > rate, I'm being blinded by the science here. Can someone help me out?
>
> My eight-year-old nephew understands why humans have 23 pairs and
> not 24: are you really less intelligent than an average child?
Please do not confuse knowledge with intelligence.
> Here:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8FGYzZOZxMw
>
> Go, and lie no more.
Thank you for the link. It explains things perfectly.
jillery
Desertphile's youtube link is a much better explanation. However,
because it focuses on the chromosome count, it doesn't answer some of
your questions.
First, both human and chimpanzee genomes have been sequenced.
Depending on how you count such things, they are more than 98%
identical. This is really strong evidence for common descent.
Second, instead of the human line fusing chromosomes after it diverged
from other apes, it is logically possible the non-human ape line
duplicated a chromosome after it diverged from the human line.
However, the chimpanzee sequence shows no such duplication in its
normal 48-chromosome complement. Also, gene duplication in apes has
been documented, and they cause substantial harmful effects, many
fatally so.
Third, mitochondial DNA studies help with comparisons of populations
within a species. This is because mtDNA isn't involved in meiosis and
fertilization. Once you have reproductively isolated species, you can
compare the chromosomal DNA to help identlfy common ancestry.
David
wrote:
> In message
> <28a59fbe-d242-4354-84dd-e91a5de31...@r5g2000yqb.googlegroups.com>,
> David <dsteu...@gmail.com> writes
Nailed! Thanks!
David
The reason I suggested sequencing the mitochondrial DNA is that we
might be able to calculate the number of generations (approximately of
course) to our common ancestors. I seem to recall hearing somewhere
that there is a statistically constant rate of mutation that is useful
for measuring this.
Another video from the same guy claims to refute the ERVs. It sounded
sort of plausible because I don't know enough. But I'm just going to
assume that the guy is a crack pot. Only these videos are mistakes
that he can't bury so easily ;-)
Thanks.
Cory Albrecht
> I generally accept the theory of evolution as true. However, I have to
> rely on scientific authority because I do not understand all of
> biology and many other details. In fact, I did not know that apes have
> a chromosome pair that we do not! I learned this in the following
> video:
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Me245KRwIo8
>
> Warning! Turn down the sound unless you like bad music!
>
> I do not know if our common ancestor perhaps had 23 pairs and the apes
> gained another pair or if there really was some sort of fusion. At any
> rate, I'm being blinded by the science here. Can someone help me out?
If you think about the basic structure of a chromosome, you're realize
that it is very easy to figure out how this difference in number came about.
TTgggggggggggggCgggggggggggggTT
T = telomeres
C = centromere
g = genes & junk
1) If the other apes gained another pair through fission, then you
expect that all chromosomes in both humans and other apes would match
the above structure, with a 1:1 correspondance of which genese are where
for all but one human chromosome which would match two other ape
chromosomes. Since telomeres are known to be protective caps on the ends
of chromosomes, any fission would require the creation of new telomeres
on the bare ends or suffer the consequences. Similarly, a new centromere
needs to form on the half that broke away to be viable chromosome.
2) If the reverse, fusion, is what happened, then we would expect to
find a chromosome that looks like this:
TTgggggggggggggcgggggggggggggttttgggggggggggggCgggggggggggggTT
T = telomeres
t = inactivated telomeres
C = centromere
c = inactivated cetromere
g = genes & junk
The telomeres in the fused tips and one of the centromeres need to be
deactivated so the chromosome can properly unzip for both replication
and protein synthesis to occur.
Since what we observe is #2 rather than #1, fusion is the only possibility.
Desertphile
<dste...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Jan 10, 2:21�pm, Desertphile <desertph...@invalid-address.net>
> wrote:
> > On Sat, 9 Jan 2010 12:55:50 -0800 (PST), David
> > You get your science from a cult? Why would you do such a silly
> > thing? Why don't you get your science from scientists?
> The video in my OP was pointed to me as a refutation of common
> ancestry. But I lack the biology education to call BS on what it says.
So, you must have known that the cult video's assertions are
contrary to what every scientist working in the related fields
say; could you not have at least tentatively accepted the idea
that scientists know what they are doing?
> > > I do not know if our common ancestor perhaps had 23 pairs and the apes
> > > gained another pair or if there really was some sort of fusion. At any
> > > rate, I'm being blinded by the science here. Can someone help me out?
> >
> > My eight-year-old nephew understands why humans have 23 pairs and
> > not 24: are you really less intelligent than an average child?
> Please do not confuse knowledge with intelligence.
Retaining and acquiring knowledge is a measure of intelligence.
> > Here:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8FGYzZOZxMw
> >
> > Go, and lie no more.
>
> Thank you for the link. It explains things perfectly.
Nick Keighley
> On Sat, 9 Jan 2010 12:55:50 -0800 (PST), David
> <dsteu...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > I generally accept the theory of evolution as true. However, I have to
> > rely on scientific authority because I do not understand all of
> > biology and many other details. In fact, I did not know that apes have
> > a chromosome pair that we do not!
>
> "We" who? Humans are apes: if you mean humans when you wrote "we,"
> then you aren't making any sense--- you are asking why humans have
> a pair of chromosomes that humans don't have.
now you are just being stupidly difficult. Most non-evolutionary
biologists aren't yet up to speed on cladistics (hell, most people
haven't got to Newtonian Physics!). So I'll translate his sentence
into a form you can understand (or rather, "not pretend you can't
understand").
"In fact, I did not know that [non-human] apes have a chromosome pair
that [humans] do not!"
clear now?
> > I learned this in the following video:
> >http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Me245KRwIo8
>
> You get your science from a cult? Why would you do such a silly
> thing? Why don't you get your science from scientists?
because scientists are not easily available or always easy to
understand. Some of them even expect you to understand esoteric
cladistic theories or they just laugh at you.
Steven L.
news:94dd68df-2641-44bd...@u7g2000yqm.googlegroups.com:
> On Jan 9, 3:55�pm, David <dsteu...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > I generally accept the theory of evolution as true. However, I have to
> > rely on scientific authority because I do not understand all of
> > biology and many other details. In fact, I did not know that apes have
> > a chromosome pair that we do not! I learned this in the following
> > video:
> >
> > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Me245KRwIo8
> >
> > Warning! Turn down the sound unless you like bad music!
> >
> > I do not know if our common ancestor perhaps had 23 pairs and the apes
> > gained another pair or if there really was some sort of fusion. At any
> > rate, I'm being blinded by the science here. Can someone help me out?
> >
> Human chromosome 2 corresponds to two fused chromosomes in each of the
> ape species. That chromosome even has evidence of the remnants of
> telemeres, the cap on the end of a chromosome. So our common ancestor
> with chimpanzees had 24 pairs of chromosomes, just like all the other
> apes.
It was evidence such as this that convinced me, as a non-scientist
(retired engineer), that the ToE was true.
This, and ring species, and a couple of other clinchers like ERVs, are
my own reasons for accepting the ToE.
> Even better, endogenous retroviruses (ERVs) have been mapped in ape
> species. This type of virus inserts itself into a DNA string to make
> copies of itself. Once in a while, a copy will get into a reproductive
> cell and can be passed on to the offspring. Sometimes this copy will
> become established through the entire population. It is estimated that
> 8% of human DNA is junk from retroviruses. The odds against such a
> virus inserting itself into the same place in the DNA in two different
> species and having both become established is something like billions
> to one. Having many in common shows common ancestry and shows the
> relative distances between different species. Humans and chimps have
> more ERVs in common than either have with gorillas. Gorillas, chimps
> and humans share more than any does with orangutans.
--
--
Steven L.
sdli...@earthlinkNOSPAM.net
Remove the "NOSPAM" before sending to this email address.
David
wrote:
> On Sun, 10 Jan 2010 13:28:12 -0800 (PST), David
>
> > On Jan 10, 2:21�pm, Desertphile <desertph...@invalid-address.net>
> > wrote:
> > > On Sat, 9 Jan 2010 12:55:50 -0800 (PST), David
> > > You get your science from a cult? Why would you do such a silly
> > > thing? Why don't you get your science from scientists?
> > The video in my OP was pointed to me as a refutation of common
> > ancestry. But I lack the biology education to call BS on what it says.
>
> So, you must have known that the cult video's assertions are
> contrary to what every scientist working in the related fields
> say; could you not have at least tentatively accepted the idea
> that scientists know what they are doing?
I probably wasn't as clear as I should have been. I accept Evolution
as fact. It was clear to me that the video had to contain an error. I
just didn't have the required knowledge to point out where the error
was.
Now I do.
jillery
> "Greg G." <ggw...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:94dd68df-2641-44bd...@u7g2000yqm.googlegroups.com:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Jan 9, 3:55�pm, David <dsteu...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > I generally accept the theory of evolution as true. However, I have to
> > > rely on scientific authority because I do not understand all of
> > > biology and many other details. In fact, I did not know that apes have
> > > a chromosome pair that we do not! I learned this in the following
> > > video:
>
> > >http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Me245KRwIo8
>
> > > Warning! Turn down the sound unless you like bad music!
>
> > > I do not know if our common ancestor perhaps had 23 pairs and the apes
> > > gained another pair or if there really was some sort of fusion. At any
> > > rate, I'm being blinded by the science here. Can someone help me out?
>
> > Human chromosome 2 corresponds to two fused chromosomes in each of the
> > ape species. That chromosome even has evidence of the remnants of
> > telemeres, the cap on the end of a chromosome. So our common ancestor
> > with chimpanzees had 24 pairs of chromosomes, just like all the other
> > apes.
>
> It was evidence such as this that convinced me, as a non-scientist
> (retired engineer), that the ToE was true.
>
> This, and ring species, and a couple of other clinchers like ERVs, are
> my own reasons for accepting the ToE.
Hopefully, you didn't start to rape and pillage and sacrifice children
until well after your conversion. Of course, after a respectful grace
period, you can indulge in these materialist pastimes, but try to be
discrete about it. Don't want the creationists finding out.
> > Even better, endogenous retroviruses (ERVs) have been mapped in ape
> > species. This type of virus inserts itself into a DNA string to make
> > copies of itself. Once in a while, a copy will get into a reproductive
> > cell and can be passed on to the offspring. Sometimes this copy will
> > become established through the entire population. It is estimated that
> > 8% of human DNA is junk from retroviruses. The odds against such a
> > virus inserting itself into the same place in the DNA in two different
> > species and having both become established is something like billions
> > to one. Having many in common shows common ancestry and shows the
> > relative distances between different species. Humans and chimps have
> > more ERVs in common than either have with gorillas. Gorillas, chimps
> > and humans share more than any does with orangutans.
>
> --
> --
> Steven L.
> sdlit...@earthlinkNOSPAM.net
> Remove the "NOSPAM" before sending to this email address.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
jillery
David, I'm glad you invested the time and effort to check out the
facts. We all start out ignorant. It's when it's a lifestyle choice
that it gets embarrassing.
chris thompson
>
> > I generally accept the theory of evolution as true. However, I have to
> > rely on scientific authority because I do not understand all of
> > biology and many other details. In fact, I did not know that apes have
> > a chromosome pair that we do not!
>
> "We" who? Humans are apes: if you mean humans when you wrote "we,"
> then you aren't making any sense--- you are asking why humans have
> a pair of chromosomes that humans don't have.
>
> > I learned this in the following video:
> >http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Me245KRwIo8
>
> You get your science from a cult? Why would you do such a silly
> thing? Why don't you get your science from scientists?
>
> > Warning! Turn down the sound unless you like bad music!
>
> > I do not know if our common ancestor perhaps had 23 pairs and the apes
> > gained another pair or if there really was some sort of fusion. At any
> > rate, I'm being blinded by the science here. Can someone help me out?
>
> My eight-year-old nephew understands why humans have 23 pairs and
> not 24: are you really less intelligent than an average child?
>
> Here:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8FGYzZOZxMw
>
> Go, and lie no more.
Dude, lighten up. He's one of the good guys :)
Chris
Steven L.
news:7549645f-0d9e-43ab...@t19g2000vbc.googlegroups.com:
Nah, I'll just settle for rough sex.
--
--
Steven L.
sdli...@earthlinkNOSPAM.net
Otto
news:28a59fbe-d242-4354...@r5g2000yqb.googlegroups.com...
>I generally accept the theory of evolution as true. However, I have to
> rely on scientific authority because I do not understand all of
> biology and many other details. In fact, I did not know that apes have
> a chromosome pair that we do not! I learned this in the following
> video:
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Me245KRwIo8
>
> Warning! Turn down the sound unless you like bad music!
>
> I do not know if our common ancestor perhaps had 23 pairs and the apes
> gained another pair or if there really was some sort of fusion. At any
> rate, I'm being blinded by the science here. Can someone help me out?
If "our common ancestor" had 23 pairs, our earlier common ancestor - this
means the one common to ourselves, apes, and that branch of evolution from
which the next higher mammals descended, right before that common ancestor
or ourselves and the apes came into being - should have had 23 pairs as
well, shouldn't it ?
That should be not too difficult to check.
In the other event, the apes might constitute a branch which itself acquired
the additional pair on their own while branching off.
Otto
Dana Tweedy
> "David"<dste...@gmail.com> wrote in news message
> news:28a59fbe-d242-4354...@r5g2000yqb.googlegroups.com...
>> I generally accept the theory of evolution as true. However, I have to
>> rely on scientific authority because I do not understand all of
>> biology and many other details. In fact, I did not know that apes have
>> a chromosome pair that we do not! I learned this in the following
>> video:
>>
>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Me245KRwIo8
>>
>> Warning! Turn down the sound unless you like bad music!
>>
>> I do not know if our common ancestor perhaps had 23 pairs and the apes
>> gained another pair or if there really was some sort of fusion. At any
>> rate, I'm being blinded by the science here. Can someone help me out?
>
> If "our common ancestor" had 23 pairs, our earlier common ancestor - this
> means the one common to ourselves, apes, and that branch of evolution from
> which the next higher mammals descended, right before that common ancestor
> or ourselves and the apes came into being - should have had 23 pairs as
> well, shouldn't it ?
Actually, Chimps and Gorillas have 24 pairs. In humans, one pair became
fused, which is why there is 23.
>
> That should be not too difficult to check.
It has been. Human chromosones have one fewer, and the chromosones show
that one was fused.
> In the other event, the apes might constitute a branch which itself acquired
> the additional pair on their own while branching off.
Nope, didn't happen that way.
DJT
jillery
> On 1/25/10 8:31 AM, Otto wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
> - Show quoted text -
And how we know it didn't happen that way is a very interesting story.
For Otto's benefit, *I* think it's a very interesting story.