Part 5: Harran is unable to escape the claim that he attaches the power of a God to Nature

[T Pagano]

On Mon, 19 Feb 2018 23:13:09 +0000, Martin Harran wrote:

> On Mon, 19 Feb 2018 09:19:20 -0600, T Pagano <notmya...@dot.com>
> wrote:
>
>>On Wed, 14 Feb 2018 14:01:09 +0000, Martin Harran wrote:
>>
>>> On Thu, 8 Feb 2018 00:52:45 -0500, "R. Dean" <"R. Dean"@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:


snip, already covered.




>
>
>>3. HARRAN'S UNSTATED PRESUPPOSITION:
>>Matter, law, chance and time are sufficient to cause all events in space
>>and time. Unfortunately this is a metaphysical claim "about" nature and
>>NOT a first order conclusion of any scientific method or tool. The
>>electron microscope or the methodology for dating a rock sample
>>radiometrically are both agnostic and silent about whether this
>>presupposition is true or even necessary.


>
> Unstated bceause Harran makes no such proposition; as already pointed
> out, Harran presupposes the exact opposite of what Pagano claims about
> him.

Not true:
[HARRAN QUOTE BEGIN]
". . . .that there is an alternate metaphysical reality but it does not
involve a God who sits tweaking things and either intentionally through
maliciousness or unintentionally through a gross lack of intelligence
creates things like the HIV virus or the Respiratory Syncytial Virusthat
has been threatening the lives of young children in Ireland in recent
months.
[END HARRAN QUOTE]

If you exclude God then by necessity you are forced to presume that
nature is endowed with the power of a God. And this is the
presupposition I attributed to you.



>>
>>4. Can you produce a single scientific method or tool which requires
>>your metaphysical claim?
>
> What metaphysical claim have I made?


[HARRAN QUOTE BEGIN]
". . . .that there is an alternate metaphysical reality but it does not
involve a God who sits tweaking things and either intentionally through
maliciousness or unintentionally through a gross lack of intelligence
creates things like the HIV virus or the Respiratory Syncytial Virusthat
has been threatening the lives of young children in Ireland in recent
months.
[END HARRAN QUOTE]

You've presupposed a world view free of a god and by necessity you are
forced to presume that nature is endowed with the power of a god.




snip, more to come.

[Martin Harran]

On Mon, 19 Feb 2018 20:20:33 -0600, T Pagano <notmya...@dot.com>

Sorry, it seems to Have escaped your notice that I believe in God so
don't exclude him from anything. You are the one who is excluding him
from using evolution to carry out his desires.

> you are forced to presume that
>nature is endowed with the power of a God. And this is the
>presupposition I attributed to you.
>
>
>
>>>
>>>4. Can you produce a single scientific method or tool which requires
>>>your metaphysical claim?
>>
>> What metaphysical claim have I made?
>
>
>[HARRAN QUOTE BEGIN]
>". . . .that there is an alternate metaphysical reality but it does not
>involve a God who sits tweaking things and either intentionally through
>maliciousness or unintentionally through a gross lack of intelligence
>creates things like the HIV virus or the Respiratory Syncytial Virusthat
>has been threatening the lives of young children in Ireland in recent
>months.
>[END HARRAN QUOTE]
>
>You've presupposed a world view free of a god and by necessity you are
>forced to presume that nature is endowed with the power of a god.

No, I don't presuppose anything at all but I dearly love you to
explain where things like HIV and RSV come from, it seems to me that
they look no more or no less designed than the bacterial flagellum
looks.