owwwwww!

RichD

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Oct 26, 2016, 1:00:03 PM10/26/16

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Why do humans scream in pain?
What function does it perform?

note: the question isn't how, not "what are the
neural pathways connecting larynx to pain centers"
yada yada, the question is: what survival advantage
does this behavior offer?

--
Rich

rsNorman

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Oct 26, 2016, 1:20:03 PM10/26/16

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RichD <r_dela...@yahoo.com> Wrote in message:

There is always a strong possibility in discussing evolutionary
adaptive features of human behavior of making up "just so"
stories without any real evidence. Some (much? All?) of
evolutionary psychology might fall into that trap.

Still, pain vocalization is generally considered a signal to other
members of your own species. It can serve to bring assistance,
as for instance a baby crying, or it can serve as a warning
signal to others about the danger from whatever you suffered. It
can also act negatively as a signal that you are somewhat
helpless and defensive. But the cry for assistance notion
generally seems to prevail among the animal behaviorists.
Particularly pitiful cries, for example, seem to elicit a caring
or nurturing response.

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jillery

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Oct 26, 2016, 1:30:03 PM10/26/16

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Your question raises the question; what make you think a survival
advantage is necessary?
--
This space is intentionally not blank.

Kalkidas

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Oct 26, 2016, 1:45:02 PM10/26/16

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Next time you scream in pain, ask yourself why.

Oxyaena

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Oct 29, 2016, 2:00:02 PM10/29/16

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Perhaps an instinctive plea for help, or maybe a warning for people in
the nearby area of danger, or perhaps both?

--
http://oxyaena.org/

Öö Tiib

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Oct 30, 2016, 9:00:03 AM10/30/16

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Why it is narrowed down to people?
Sound is cheap to make and information that someone is in pain is
among most important from survival viewpoint so I thought that most
amniotes scream in pain.

jillery

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Oct 30, 2016, 10:40:03 AM10/30/16

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On Wed, 26 Oct 2016 09:57:16 -0700 (PDT), RichD
<r_dela...@yahoo.com> wrote:

When I'm tired and rub my eye for awhile, I "see" flashes of colored
moving lights. These phosphenes are the result of mechanically
ennervating light receptors in the retina. I have also seen similar
"stars" when experiencing acute pain having nothing to do with my
eyes, ex. hitting my thumb with a hammer. What survival advantage is
that?

The point being "screams" could be simply an artifact of nervous
system overload, no survival advantage required.

J. J. Lodder

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Oct 31, 2016, 4:20:02 PM10/31/16

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Someone (Konrad Lorenz?) offered the paradoxal explanation
that alarm cries attract other predators.
A second predator on the scene draws all the attention of the first,
for he probably is competition, a threat, and perhaps a mortal danger.

While the attention is temporarily focussed elsewhere
the prey may get away, with some luck,

Jan

wdm...@verizon.net

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Oct 31, 2016, 11:25:02 PM10/31/16

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On Wednesday, October 26, 2016 at 1:20:03 PM UTC-4, rsNorman wrote:
> RichD <r_dela...@yahoo.com> Wrote in message:
> > Why do humans scream in pain?
> > What function does it perform?
> >
> > note: the question isn't how, not "what are the
> > neural pathways connecting larynx to pain centers"
> > yada yada, the question is: what survival advantage
> > does this behavior offer?
>
> There is always a strong possibility in discussing evolutionary
> adaptive features of human behavior of making up "just so"
> stories without any real evidence. Some (much? All?) of
> evolutionary psychology might fall into that trap.

Despite being an adaptationist, I have to agree that one of the first questions should be is the behavior actually adaptive.

> Still, pain vocalization is generally considered a signal to other
> members of your own species. It can serve to bring assistance,
> as for instance a baby crying, or it can serve as a warning
> signal to others about the danger from whatever you suffered. It
> can also act negatively as a signal that you are somewhat
> helpless and defensive. But the cry for assistance notion
> generally seems to prevail among the animal behaviorists.
> Particularly pitiful cries, for example, seem to elicit a caring
> or nurturing response.

I tend to agree with this answer for the whimpering that tends to accommodate prolonged pain, But I think it may be possible that the initial scream actually reduces the pain by focusing the nervous system on the scream rather than the pain. Unfortunately I don't know enough about the nervous system to know if this is true. But certainly our perceptions are influenced by our current focus.

RichD

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Nov 1, 2016, 1:00:03 AM11/1/16

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On October 30, jillery wrote:
>>Why do humans scream in pain?
>>What function does it perform?
>
>note: the question isn't how, not "what are the
>>neural pathways connecting larynx to pain centers"
>>yada yada, the question is: what survival advantage
>>does this behavior offer?

> The point being "screams" could be simply an artifact of nervous
> system overload, no survival advantage required.

That strikes me more likely than the "Just So" stories, none of
which are testable.

--
Rich

jillery

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Nov 1, 2016, 12:25:02 PM11/1/16

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Don't be upset that you got allegedly "just so" stories in response to
a "just so" question.

Glenn

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Nov 1, 2016, 12:45:02 PM11/1/16

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"jillery" <69jp...@gmail.com> wrote in message news:mbgh1ctbkvdq5etu8...@4ax.com...

"Scream in pain" is the part of the question that you deem to be "just-so"?

jillery

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Nov 1, 2016, 1:35:02 PM11/1/16

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Since you asked, no. You're welcome.

Oxyaena

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Nov 1, 2016, 1:40:02 PM11/1/16

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The question was "Why do humans scream in pain?" The question is a bit
anthropocentric, since other amniotes are known to scream in pain, just
look at a rabbit being torn apart by a fox, or when you step
(accidentally) on a dog's tail and it yelps in pain.

Screaming in pain is definitely an important survival advantage, J.J.
Lodder said below that screaming in pain could attract other predators
to the would-be meal, since the predators are fighting over food rights,
the prey slips away in the confusion, however, it could be also an
instinctive plea for help, such as when lions attack a cape buffalo and
the entire herd comes to its rescue.

--
http://oxyaena.org/

Oxyaena

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Nov 1, 2016, 9:30:02 PM11/1/16

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You should learn to reduce your lines.

--
http://oxyaena.org/

Mark Isaak

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Nov 2, 2016, 12:05:02 AM11/2/16

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On 11/1/16 10:38 AM, Oxyaena wrote:
> On 10/30/2016 8:55 AM, Öö Tiib wrote:
>> On Saturday, 29 October 2016 21:00:02 UTC+3, Oxyaena wrote:
>>> On 10/26/2016 12:57 PM, RichD wrote:
>>>> Why do humans scream in pain?
>>>> What function does it perform?
>>>>
>>>> note: the question isn't how, not "what are the
>>>> neural pathways connecting larynx to pain centers"
>>>> yada yada, the question is: what survival advantage
>>>> does this behavior offer?
>>>>

>>> Perhaps an instinctive plea for help, or maybe a warning for people in
>>> the nearby area of danger, or perhaps both?
>>
>> Why it is narrowed down to people?
>> Sound is cheap to make and information that someone is in pain is
>> among most important from survival viewpoint so I thought that most
>> amniotes scream in pain.
>>
> The question was "Why do humans scream in pain?" The question is a bit
> anthropocentric, since other amniotes are known to scream in pain, just
> look at a rabbit being torn apart by a fox, or when you step
> (accidentally) on a dog's tail and it yelps in pain.

It also applies to play behavior. I once had a kitten who played with
her claws out. She continued to do so until I started yelling in pain
when she scratched me.

--
Mark Isaak eciton (at) curioustaxonomy (dot) net
"We are not looking for answers. We are looking to come to an
understanding, recognizing that it is temporary--leaving us open to an
even richer understanding as further evidence surfaces." - author unknown

eridanus

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Nov 2, 2016, 5:05:04 AM11/2/16

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it is a good idea.
eri

RichD

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Nov 2, 2016, 2:00:02 PM11/2/16

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On October 26, rsNorman wrote:
>> Why do humans scream in pain?

>> not "what are the
>> neural pathways connecting larynx to pain centers"
>> yada yada, the question is: what survival advantage
>> does this behavior offer?
>

> Still, pain vocalization is generally considered a signal to other
> members of your own species. It can serve to bring assistance,
> as for instance a baby crying, or it can serve as a warning
> signal to others about the danger from whatever you suffered. It
> can also act negatively as a signal that you are somewhat
> helpless and defensive. But the cry for assistance notion
> generally seems to prevail among the animal behaviorists.

This is the answer I expected, and it's amusing.

First, nature is red in tooth and claw. When a lion attacks
a herd of giraffe, the lame will become dinner, he can scream
his head off, the others will scurry... "glad it's him and
not me!" No assistance. It's unwarranted to claim that
Cro-Magnon was a bleeding heart liberal.

The 'baby is hungry' idea works for infants, but a
stretch to claim that it applies to an injured adult.
More crucially, the question is: their medical facility
was... what, exactly? Injured or ill, you recovered on
your own. Or not. What good came from whining? It's
about SURVIVAL ADVANTAGE, guys, remember? So your cousins
cluck in sympathy, how does that boost your genetic perseverence?

Funniest is the rationale that it serves as warning
to others. So one eats a poison mushroom, bellyaches,
then expires. Thus his buddies learn to avoid that
variety of cap. Hence THEY are the beneficiaries, not
the whimperer. He's the fool whose genes are ELIMINATED
from the pool! Indeed, this behavior ought to be selected...
OUT! This 'explanation' turns Darwinism on its head.

None of the facile "Just So" tales pass muster.

--
Rich

RichD

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Nov 2, 2016, 2:00:02 PM11/2/16

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On November 1, jillery wrote:
>>>> Why do humans scream in pain?
>>>> What function does it perform?
>

>>> The point being "screams" could be simply an artifact of nervous
>>> system overload, no survival advantage required.
>
>> That strikes me more likely than the "Just So" stories, none of
>> which are testable.
>
> Don't be upset that you got allegedly "just so" stories in response to
> a "just so" question.

Upset?
Do you suffer the handicap of two X chromosomes, perchance?

--
Rich

jillery

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Nov 2, 2016, 3:05:03 PM11/2/16

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Apparently you never heard of genetic altruism by kin selection:

<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kin_selection>

And what you dismiss above is exactly the mechanism that explains
warning coloration among poisonous animals:

<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aposematism>

jillery

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Nov 2, 2016, 3:05:03 PM11/2/16

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Apparently you suffer from microcephaly.

Bill Rogers

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Nov 2, 2016, 5:40:03 PM11/2/16

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Well, there are facile "just so" refutations of facile "just so" stories. Hard to think of an experiment to do that would give a reliable answer to the question.

Jonathan

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Nov 2, 2016, 8:45:02 PM11/2/16

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On 10/26/2016 12:57 PM, RichD wrote: