Yes God answers prayers, why do think he wants people to pray to him? Gosh. Re: Does God answer prayers?
John P. Boatwright
> Does God answer prayers?
Yep, he certainly does.
> I am seriously interested in others' (especially theists)
> opinions on this.
Why especially theists?
Do you think atheists pray to God?
When would they?
Just before death?
Ya.
> Are prayers answered?
Uhm... you already asked that.
> None? Some? I don't think that anyone would
> claim that all prayers are answered, would they?
Some prayers are in fact answered.
One prayer was about unbelievable.
I have friend that I've known for about 12 years,
his daughter got kidnapped about 8 years ago and
there was no evidence, no leads, just a missing kid.
So what happened?
I asked God to do something about it, I couldn't
imagine knowing someone that had their kid kidnapped.
Being how a number of years had passed with no
leads, I decided it was time to try praying for
some sort of resolution in the matter.
It was weird, only a few months before the friend
mentioned they'd gotten a lead, there I was asking
God to help.
Sure you can claim that it was luck, lots of other
people praying etc... but I'll admit it, I had NEVER
prayed for such a thing before then.
Up until that time, I just accepted his kid being missing,
and in the back of my mind I figured there was a good
chance his kid was dead, that praying wouldn't help much.
But as time wore on, it became odd knowing someone with
their child being kidnapped. I guess it was like thinking
it wasn't really happening. Basically, you don't normally
know someone going through such stuff.
So then later on, I realized: ya, this is real, the kid
is really gone. So what left? It's either over and his
kid is dead, or his kid is still alive and out there
somewhere.
At that point, I figured I might as well ask God for
help, since certainly if his kid was alive, then if
anyone could find her or bring her back, God could.
And of course... God brought her back.
This just happened not too long ago, and the stuff
was all over the news when they found her, it was the
strangest feeling seeing such a thing.
And sure, I don't doubt that there were lots of other
people praying too. And you being an atheist, you will
claim luck or whatever else you want, saying God had
nothing to do with it, it was just coincidence...
Big deal, I know different.
For me, it was just something I asked, like walking
up and asking someone something, knowing they're there
and God then doing something about it. A straight
forward knowing that he could do it. An honest asking
that if she was still alive, to bring her back.
Now you go ahead there guy, laugh it up. It really
doesn't matter if you believe it or not, but God can
make stuff happen. Seriously.
See where the kid was: outside the country. The
chances were about nil that anyone would find her
or figure it out. She was only about 1 year old
at the time she was kidnapped and by the time
they found her, she was already in grade school
and settled in.
It's a true story, there are posts on dejanews during
the time they tried to get her back.
And not one shred of evidence that God did it...
... except someone saying they asked God to do what
normally would never happen.
So it's up to you to decide if God was part of it or not.
* Chances of knowing someone kidnapped ... about nil.
* Chances of a kidnapped kid being alive ... ?
* Chances of a kidnapped kid being found ... low.
* Chances of a kidnapped kid being found outside the
country... nil.
* Chances a 1 year old kidnapped and found 7 years
later based on a picture.... nil.
It's almost certain that you won't believe God had
anything to do with it and again, it doesn't matter
if YOU believe it or not.
But for me, I remember asking God years after the
kidnapping, the time before thinking she was probably
dead. After that prayer, I remember being surprized
when he mentioned the possible lead, I didn't know
how to tell him what I'd asked earlier, he wouldn't
have believed it.
But now it doesn't matter, since for you, you just see
it as more stuff to be skeptical about, more stuff
to laugh about, more stuff to toss out God with.
But I know different.
God made it all, Jesus died for our sins.
Proof God described the planet density profile
BEFORE science did:
http://www.teleport.com/~salad/4god/density.htm
(see the 2 graphs, obviously God was right in Genesis)
Evan Thompson
> I have friend that I've known for about 12 years,
> his daughter got kidnapped about 8 years ago and
> there was no evidence, no leads, just a missing kid.
>
> So what happened?
>
> I asked God to do something about it, I couldn't
> imagine knowing someone that had their kid kidnapped.
> Being how a number of years had passed with no
> leads, I decided it was time to try praying for
> some sort of resolution in the matter.
>
> It was weird, only a few months before the friend
> mentioned they'd gotten a lead, there I was asking
> God to help.
Do you know how many missing children are never found, or turn up dead?
I bet someone was praying for every one of them, even the ones that were
raped repeatedly, tortured, strangled to death, and left to rot in the
basement. Apparently, God didn't care about those ones.
In this anecdote, you are putting forth the claim that your God has the
power to save a kidnapped child at will, right? If he has that power but
does not act, his negligence is responsible for all the children and
families he didn't feel like helping.
Scott Lowther
Even better: a human's prayer has the power to change God's mind. Kinda
throws a monkeywrench into the "all-knowing, all-powerful" bit, doesn't
it?
John P. Boatwright
> sa...@teleport.com wrote:
> > I have friend that I've known for about 12 years,
> > his daughter got kidnapped about 8 years ago and
> > there was no evidence, no leads, just a missing kid.
> > So what happened?
> > I asked God to do something about it, I couldn't
> > imagine knowing someone that had their kid kidnapped.
> > Being how a number of years had passed with no
> > leads, I decided it was time to try praying for
> > some sort of resolution in the matter.
> > It was weird, only a few months before the friend
> > mentioned they'd gotten a lead, there I was asking
> > God to help.
> Do you know how many missing children are never found,
> or turn up dead?
That was mentioned... the chances are slim of getting
them back.
> I bet someone was praying for every one of them,
> even the ones that were raped repeatedly, tortured,
> strangled to death, and left to rot in the basement.
> Apparently, God didn't care about those ones.
And that's what I had assumed from the start, that
lots of people were praying. Also that the kid being
missing, no leads, she'd be dead or gone for good
soon after it started.
I basically had accepted it, but the reality of
it hadn't really set in. It was like him saying what
happened wasn't really there, yet was there. Like
watching a news report about a war, knowing it's
going on, but not really seeing the reality of it.
It's tough to explain.
As for other kids missing, sure others would be asking
God to help, but notice this was YEARS LATER that I
figured I should seriously pray to God, seriously
ask point blank. To then pray for help and knowing only
God could solve it.
There was no "I'll hate you if you don't", no conditions,
just an honest knowing that he could solve it if anyone
could. That only God could bring her back (if she was still
alive). There was no one else able to take on such a thing
and make it happen.
> In this anecdote, you are putting forth the claim
> that your God has the power to save a kidnapped
> child at will, right?
Ya.
> If he has that power but does not act, his negligence
> is responsible for all the children and families he
> didn't feel like helping.
No, God is NOT responsible for what PEOPLE do to kids.
You're placing blame on God for what PEOPLE do.
That's NOT how God works.
God allows sin since God created FREE WILL. God does not
want the sin, but he does want people to of their own
FREE WILL, to do what he wants, for them to do GOOD.
FREE WILL implies sin will exist.
Yet God can act against sin. And overall, PEOPLE do sin
and PEOPLE are given FREE WILL to sin. But God stopping
each and every sin would in fact disable FREE WILL.
So you NOW, because God decided to allow FREE WILL, you're
NOW trying to judge what God does, attempting to limit
or control him so you can feel right. Trying to force God
to erase FREE WILL to eliminate sin.
You lose.
You can not judge God, God will judge YOU.
God does listen to prayer, and God can act on said
prayers, but you can't force God to act, and you can't
judge him for allowing FREE WILL to exist. You can't
judge him for such a time when he choses to judge sin
and return the child.
You also can't judge God for allowing death, just as
you can't judge God for giving life.
You can't judge God for what he set up.
As for the PEOPLE kidnapping kids, killing them, etc...
God will judge them. They used their own FREE WILL to
hurt and kill, they will pay the price, a terribly
high price.
Overall, there is nothing to gain from saying this now,
and I don't expect anyone else to believe it. So you'll
just wander off thinking it's crazy. I'll simply remember
it as one more proof that God can do what he said.
There's just a basic simplicity to all that's going
on. You'll of course be blind to it since to you,
you STILL believe you have NO evidence that God had
anything to do with it.
Evan Thompson
<snip it all>
Well, that was a lengthy response. The gist of it- everything that goes
right is evidence for God, and so is everything that goes wrong. God is
responsible for every prayer that was 'answered', but none of the ones
that were not. There is no way to tell if God is going to do anything or
not, but once it happens, you know he must have done it. God is unknowable
and must not be tested.
In other words, the actions of your God are indistinguishable from random
chance. Focus on the few times when you got lucky, and ignore all the
rest, and it might look like there is something really there.
Oh, and one question- In my "Elements of Style" handbook, it unfortunately
has no section on crackpot rants. What are the PROPER rules one should
FOLLOW when capitalizing WORDS all THROUGHOUT ones writing? I'm just
CURIOUS.
yorick
John P. Boatwright <sa...@teleport.com> wrote in message
news:37BE60...@teleport.com...
> Evan Thompson wrote:
>
> > sa...@teleport.com wrote:
>
> > > I have friend that I've known for about 12 years,
> > > his daughter got kidnapped about 8 years ago and
> > > there was no evidence, no leads, just a missing kid.
>
> > > So what happened?
>
> > > I asked God to do something about it,
> There was no "I'll hate you if you don't", no conditions,
> just an honest knowing that he could solve it if anyone
> could. That only God could bring her back (if she was still
> alive). There was no one else able to take on such a thing
> and make it happen.
"(if she was still alive) "
Why the caveat?
Is not your god omnipotent?
JRM
Medieval Knievel
John P. Boatwright wrote in message <37BE38...@teleport.com>...
>It was weird, only a few months before the friend
>mentioned they'd gotten a lead, there I was asking
>God to help.
You're mistaking correlation with causality. I'd beg the question that if
god was so concerned about the kid in the first place, why would he let her
get abducted at all?
--
What Would Medieval Knievel Do? (WWMKD?)
remove NOSPAM from my address to reply
ICQ# 26667824 aa# 1552 ULC ordained minister
EAC Coordinator of Youth Corruption Activities
ahos
John P. Boatwright <sa...@teleport.com> wrote in message
news:37BE60...@teleport.com...
> Evan Thompson wrote:
>
> > sa...@teleport.com wrote:
>
> > > I have friend that I've known for about 12 years,
> > > his daughter got kidnapped about 8 years ago and
> > > there was no evidence, no leads, just a missing kid.
>
> > > So what happened?
>
> > > imagine knowing someone that had their kid kidnapped.
> > > Being how a number of years had passed with no
> > > leads, I decided it was time to try praying for
> > > some sort of resolution in the matter.
>
> > > mentioned they'd gotten a lead, there I was asking
> > > God to help.
>
> > or turn up dead?
>
> That was mentioned... the chances are slim of getting
> them back.
>
> > I bet someone was praying for every one of them,
> > even the ones that were raped repeatedly, tortured,
> > strangled to death, and left to rot in the basement.
> > Apparently, God didn't care about those ones.
>
> And that's what I had assumed from the start, that
> lots of people were praying. Also that the kid being
> missing, no leads, she'd be dead or gone for good
> soon after it started.
>
This profoundly inhuman answer confirms the main point - god (if he existed)
is an evil bastard. Also, if you assumed "she'd be dead or gone for good
soon after it started" what were you praying for? what was the "some sort of
resolution" you were seeking?
> I basically had accepted it, but the reality of
> it hadn't really set in. It was like him saying what
> happened wasn't really there, yet was there. Like
> watching a news report about a war, knowing it's
> going on, but not really seeing the reality of it.
>
> It's tough to explain.
>
Well you appear to be unable to explain it.
> As for other kids missing, sure others would be asking
> God to help, but notice this was YEARS LATER that I
> figured I should seriously pray to God, seriously
> ask point blank. To then pray for help and knowing only
> God could solve it.
>
So you are saying - perhaps the family of this girl prayed their hearts
out - beside themselves with fear, uncertainty and grief - and meybe were
still praying when you deigned to intervene with your special relationship
with god. God was blind to them but dotes on you the dutiful son.
> There was no "I'll hate you if you don't", no conditions,
> just an honest knowing that he could solve it if anyone
> could. That only God could bring her back (if she was still
> alive). There was no one else able to take on such a thing
> and make it happen.
>
Why would god ignore her friends and family but listen to a rather weird
stranger? You fail to answer the point that god is evil (ie; if there was a
god and such an abstract concept as evil).
> > In this anecdote, you are putting forth the claim
> > that your God has the power to save a kidnapped
> > child at will, right?
>
> Ya.
>
You casually stroll into the minefield of truth.
> > If he has that power but does not act, his negligence
> > is responsible for all the children and families he
> > didn't feel like helping.
>
> No, God is NOT responsible for what PEOPLE do to kids.
>
Oops, there go your legs Boatwrong, you trod on a mine.
> You're placing blame on God for what PEOPLE do.
>
Well no actually, atheists find it difficult to blame a thing that does not
exist - we do use hypothetical arguments to hold up to ridicule nonsensical
concepts.
> That's NOT how God works.
>
So the point is won - god is not omnipotent or omniscient !
> God allows sin since God created FREE WILL. God does not
> want the sin, but he does want people to of their own
> FREE WILL, to do what he wants, for them to do GOOD.
>
You appear to have a distinct lack of free will. There is no evidence
whatever for god or sin. There is a universe full of evidence to the
contrary. You ignore reality and cling BLINDLY to your imaginary friend -
you should join the human race - we are more understanding and more
forgiving than your "friend".
> FREE WILL implies sin will exist.
>
No.
> Yet God can act against sin. And overall, PEOPLE do sin
> and PEOPLE are given FREE WILL to sin. But God stopping
> each and every sin would in fact disable FREE WILL.
>
Good grief.
> So you NOW, because God decided to allow FREE WILL, you're
> NOW trying to judge what God does, attempting to limit
> or control him so you can feel right. Trying to force God
> to erase FREE WILL to eliminate sin.
>
You think this is to make us feel good??? I'm sorry you are the one who
needs the psychological crutch. We do judge the CONCEPT of your god and find
him lacking. It does not much matter as the concept is false.
> You lose.
No, a flawless victory to atheism.
>
> You can not judge God, God will judge YOU.
>
No.
> God does listen to prayer, and God can act on said
> prayers, but you can't force God to act, and you can't
> judge him for allowing FREE WILL to exist. You can't
> judge him for such a time when he choses to judge sin
> and return the child.
>
What a mindblowing copout. God made everything and then say's it's not my
fault.
> You also can't judge God for allowing death, just as
> you can't judge God for giving life.
>
Ho hum.
> You can't judge God for what he set up.
>
Yeh, yeh, yeh.
> As for the PEOPLE kidnapping kids, killing them, etc...
>
> God will judge them. They used their own FREE WILL to
> hurt and kill, they will pay the price, a terribly
> high price.
So if we catch them we hand them over to god right?
>
> Overall, there is nothing to gain from saying this now,
> and I don't expect anyone else to believe it. So you'll
> just wander off thinking it's crazy. I'll simply remember
> it as one more proof that God can do what he said.
>
This is sad.
> There's just a basic simplicity to all that's going
> on. You'll of course be blind to it since to you,
> you STILL believe you have NO evidence that God had
> anything to do with it.
>
It is simple - there is no evidence in the entire history of the universe
that supports any type of god. There are mountains of evidence to the
contrary. It's not so much that we don't believe - we know.
> But I know different.
>
No, you blindly believe differently despite the evidence.
> God made it all, Jesus died for our sins.
>
No and another no.
Ahos :-)
(pseudoscience link snipped)
WoN ereH
>up and asking someone something, knowing they're there
>and God then doing something about it. A straight
>forward knowing that he could do it. An honest asking
>that if she was still alive, to bring her back.
>
BTW, this is called "delusions of grandeur."
If you think you have such powers, what will you pray for next? Peace on
earth? Give that one a try. Or are you praying for a new car? Besides finding
lost children I've even heard God finds missing earrings!
Regards,
Debra
Kathy
enough?
--
Kathy (aka Youngie)
(remove rubbish to e-mail)
Medieval Knievel wrote in message ...
>
>
>
>John P. Boatwright wrote in message <37BE38...@teleport.com>...
>
>>It was weird, only a few months before the friend
>>mentioned they'd gotten a lead, there I was asking
>>God to help.
>
>
d c harris
<sa...@teleport.com> wrote:
>One prayer was about unbelievable.
>
>I have friend that I've known for about 12 years,
>his daughter got kidnapped about 8 years ago and
>there was no evidence, no leads, just a missing kid.
>
D C -
I think this is such an interesting story.
Of course, here in the main it will
earn the usual flack - 'if God exists
why was she kidnapped to start with'.
Such questions seem really dim to a believer,
but they deserve respect. We are free.
But we don't put God to the test. If you
walk down a dark alley at night inhabited
by spivs and drug pushers you expect a knife
in the back.
According to a straight report recently in
The Times, prayer as a power has been
scientifically proven. But, ultimately,
proof does not come into the picture.
Religion is a reality you find, you discover,
in the way, if you are lucky, you discover
love. Such a concept means nothing
to anyone who has not experienced it - you
certainly cannot prove it exists - but the
reality is undeniable.
People have to think what they will - I do not
despise people for not believing - I just
think they miss a joy and a freedom. Sermon
over.
John P. Boatwright
>
> I guess the parents' standard prayer to keep their child safe wasn't good
> enough?
I had asked him about that time or before if he believed God
and the answer was basically no.
So why do atheists always want to blame God for what people do?
eh?
God made it all, Jesus died for our sins.
Proof God described the planet density profile
Andrew Skolnick
> > his daughter got kidnapped about 8 years ago and
> > there was no evidence, no leads, just a missing kid.
> >
> >
> > I asked God to do something about it, I couldn't
> > imagine knowing someone that had their kid kidnapped.
> > Being how a number of years had passed with no
> > leads, I decided it was time to try praying for
> > some sort of resolution in the matter.
> >
> > mentioned they'd gotten a lead, there I was asking
> > God to help.
>
> raped repeatedly, tortured, strangled to death, and left to rot in the
> basement. Apparently, God didn't care about those ones.
>
> does not act, his negligence is responsible for all the children and
> families he didn't feel like helping.
You are so very right. Every day you read in newspapers one or more
tragic stories about young children being abducted, tortured, raped,
murdered. Ten minutes ago, I put down today's New York Times, in which I
read a story about a young man being sentence to life for beating and
killing an 8-year-old girl, who lived across the street from him. The
police eventually found her body hidden in the man's water bed frame.
I have no doubt that the poor girl's parents, relatives, and friends
preyed for hours on end -- as did probably all parents, relatives, and
friends of the many hundreds of children who disappear and/or are
murdered every year.
Once in while, a child is found safe. But most of the time, the outcome
is tragic. Now this crackpot wants to take credit for one happy ending.
He wants us to think that he's so important that God listens to his
prayers while turning a deaf ear to thousands of parents who plead with
God to spare the lives of their children.
And what about all those mothers and fathers who prey that their
children be born healthy? Every year about 250,000 children in the
United States are born with birth defects. In many of those cases,
parents are doomed to watch as their new born babies suffer slow and
often agonizing deaths from having been born without kidneys, from being
born with an open skull and most of their brain missing, from being born
with a trisomy incompatible with life, from being born with Tay-Sachs
disease, or from being born with one of the birth defects that go by the
horribly descriptive name, "gargoylism." I'm sorry, but I could go on
for a long time naming the hundreds of different horrible and fatal
birth defects that affect thousands of babies each year. The prayers of
every one of those parents go unanswered.
The arrogance of this crackpot Boatwright, who often speaks for God on
these newsgroups, and now wants us to believe that God obeys his wishes,
is astonishing.
--Andrew Skolnick
http://nasw.org/users/ASkolnick
Andrew Skolnick
>
> Evan Thompson wrote:
>
> > sa...@teleport.com wrote:
>
> > > I have friend that I've known for about 12 years,
> > > his daughter got kidnapped about 8 years ago and
> > > there was no evidence, no leads, just a missing kid.
>
> > > So what happened?
>
> > > I asked God to do something about it, I couldn't
> > > imagine knowing someone that had their kid kidnapped.
> > > Being how a number of years had passed with no
> > > leads, I decided it was time to try praying for
> > > some sort of resolution in the matter.
>
> > > It was weird, only a few months before the friend
> > > mentioned they'd gotten a lead, there I was asking
> > > God to help.
>
> > Do you know how many missing children are never found,
> > or turn up dead?
>
> them back.
>
> > even the ones that were raped repeatedly, tortured,
> > strangled to death, and left to rot in the basement.
> > Apparently, God didn't care about those ones.
>
> lots of people were praying. Also that the kid being
> missing, no leads, she'd be dead or gone for good
> soon after it started.
>
> it hadn't really set in. It was like him saying what
> happened wasn't really there, yet was there. Like
> watching a news report about a war, knowing it's
> going on, but not really seeing the reality of it.
>
> It's tough to explain.
>
> God to help, but notice this was YEARS LATER that I
> figured I should seriously pray to God, seriously
> ask point blank. To then pray for help and knowing only
> God could solve it.
>
> just an honest knowing that he could solve it if anyone
> could. That only God could bring her back (if she was still
> alive). There was no one else able to take on such a thing
> and make it happen.
And there was no other prayers that God was willing to answer except
yours. He turned a deaf ear to the prayers of girl's parents and
relatives for 8 years, but when he suddenly hears a prayer from you, he
snaps to attention and quickly delivers the girl unharmed.
Boatwright, you are nothing but a pompous, arrogant ass who pretends to
speak for God.
-- Andrew Skolnick
http://nasw.org/users/ASkolnick
Andrew Skolnick
> >mentioned they'd gotten a lead, there I was asking
> >God to help.
>
> god was so concerned about the kid in the first place, why would he let her
> get abducted at all?
Why, so Boatwright could boast that it was his prayer that God listened
to and saved the girl. After all, God works is strange ways. He'd allow
a baby to be stollen from parents and then waited until his chosen one,
John P. Boatwright, prayed for the child 8 years later before He
intervened. Just so to show us how important Boatwright is in His eyes.
Or so Boatwright seems to think.
--Andrew Skolnick
http://nasw.org/users/ASkolnick
Andrew Skolnick
>
> In article <37BE60...@teleport.com>, sa...@teleport.com wrote:
> <snip it all>
>
> Well, that was a lengthy response. The gist of it- everything that goes
> right is evidence for God, and so is everything that goes wrong. God is
> responsible for every prayer that was 'answered', but none of the ones
> that were not. There is no way to tell if God is going to do anything or
> not, but once it happens, you know he must have done it. God is unknowable
> and must not be tested.
>
> In other words, the actions of your God are indistinguishable from random
> chance. Focus on the few times when you got lucky, and ignore all the
> rest, and it might look like there is something really there.
Don't miss the other message in Boatwright's claim. For 8 years, God
turned a deaf ear to the prayers of the girl's parents and relatives.
But when he prayed, God immediately responded and returned the girl
safely.
Boatwright is a pompous egomaniac who brags that God listens to his
prayers, but not to the prayers of thousands of parents who lose their
children every year.
Andrew Skolnick
>
> I guess the parents' standard prayer to keep their child safe wasn't good
> enough?
>
> Kathy (aka Youngie)
> (remove rubbish to e-mail)
No. As sincere as they were, the girl's parents just weren't as
deserving in God's eyes as is John Boatwright. Ignoring the parents'
prayers for 8 years, God waited until Boatwright interceded on their
behalf.
What next from Boatwright? A bid for saintdom?
Andrew Skolnick
>
> Andres64 wrote:
>
> > Does God answer prayers?
>
> Yep, he certainly does.
>
> > I am seriously interested in others' (especially theists)
> > opinions on this.
>
> Why especially theists?
>
> Do you think atheists pray to God?
>
> When would they?
>
> Just before death?
>
> Ya.
>
> > Are prayers answered?
>
> Uhm... you already asked that.
>
> > None? Some? I don't think that anyone would
> > claim that all prayers are answered, would they?
>
> Some prayers are in fact answered.
>
>
> his daughter got kidnapped about 8 years ago and
> there was no evidence, no leads, just a missing kid.
>
> So what happened?
>
> I asked God to do something about it, I couldn't
> imagine knowing someone that had their kid kidnapped.
> Being how a number of years had passed with no
> leads, I decided it was time to try praying for
> some sort of resolution in the matter.
>
> mentioned they'd gotten a lead, there I was asking
> God to help.
>
> people praying etc... but I'll admit it, I had NEVER
> prayed for such a thing before then.
>
> Up until that time, I just accepted his kid being missing,
> and in the back of my mind I figured there was a good
> chance his kid was dead, that praying wouldn't help much.
> But as time wore on, it became odd knowing someone with
> their child being kidnapped. I guess it was like thinking
> it wasn't really happening. Basically, you don't normally
> know someone going through such stuff.
>
> So then later on, I realized: ya, this is real, the kid
> is really gone. So what left? It's either over and his
> kid is dead, or his kid is still alive and out there
> somewhere.
>
> At that point, I figured I might as well ask God for
> help, since certainly if his kid was alive, then if
> anyone could find her or bring her back, God could.
>
> And of course... God brought her back.
Why did God bring her back? Because Boatwright asked Him to. God waited
8 years to do the right thing and return the girl. God waited until
Boatwright interceded with God on behalf of his friends.
If returning the child was the good thing to do, why did God wait 8
years until Boatwright got around to asking? Just to show us how
important Boatwright is in God's eyes?
God works, in strange ways. Or so Boatwright would have us believe.
--Andrew Skolnick
http://nasw.org/users/ASkolnick
John P. Boatwright
> And there was no other prayers that God was willing
> to answer except yours. He turned a deaf ear to the
> prayers of girl's parents and relatives for 8 years,
Uhm... as stated before, even before she was taken,
I had asked if he believed God, he said no.
Sure lots of people prayed, quite a few, probably
prayed day in and day out, for years. Probably
right up to when she was found.
> but when he suddenly hears a prayer from you, he
> snaps to attention and quickly delivers the girl unharmed.
The original poster asked if God answers prayers.
I'd be quite remiss if I didn't acknowledge God having
answered said prayer.
I'm telling you guy, just months before she was found,
I had prayed that God would resolve it and bring her
back. Serious prayer, seriously asking God to help,
seriously KNOWING that he could solve it.
> Boatwright, you are nothing but a pompous, arrogant
> ass who pretends to speak for God.
See?
I have nothing to gain by acknowledging God having
answered that prayer.
Nothing.
There is not one shred of evidence that God had anything
to do with it... except my stating that I had asked a
few months prior for God to help.
So for me, it's just one more of MANY proofs that God
did and can do what he said he could do. For you, it's
just more nonsense to reject him with.
Face it guy, the case was over, they'd all given up.
She was abducted when she was about a year old. About
6 or 7 years had passed and they didn't expect anyone
could recognize her from that picture. I remember talking
on the phone, him saying there's about no hope in getting
her back. Not only that, the media had painted his family
as being a possible source of it.
So I asked God for help, I knew God knew the answer and
that he could solve it, that he could bring her back
from where ever she was, to end it.
I'll always know that God solved it and you'll just write
it off as coincidence or what ever else you want so
you can justify your not believing him.
I have no choice but to say God solved it if someone asks
if prayers are ever answered... someone asked. You then
have no choice but to ridicule it.
Same old, same old.
Andrew Skolnick
Boatwright is so full of himself it's a miracle he doesn't explode. He
wants us to believe for all those years, God wouldn't do the right thing
until Boatwright intervened and asked God to return the girl. Boatwright
must think he's Moses, able to direct God to do the right thing. God
wouldn't do the right thing until Boatwright asked God to return the
kidnapped girl. And nobody else's prayers moved God to return the
kidnapped girl. Nope. God wouldn't budge an inch, not until Boatwright
stood up and asked God to return the girl.
What an arrogant, blasphemous ass.
John P. Boatwright
> John P. Boatwright wrote:
> > Andrew Skolnick wrote:
> > > Boatwright, you are nothing but a pompous, arrogant
> > > ass who pretends to speak for God.
> > See?
Yep, someone asks if prayer to God is ever answered.
So someone says yes, says what they asked of God, and
that God delivered, the prayer being answered.
Andy boy, he thinks saying God answers prayers makes
the one asking a "pompus, arrogant ass who pretends
to speak for God".
Amazing.
All this so that Andy boy can try to SILENCE prayer
to God.
Andy boy doesn't realize that stuff said AGAINST
the Holy Spirit, those things ARE NOT forgiven.
Obviously, if God allowed said sin to continue,
the girl would have NEVER been found. To those
believing God, her being found given the about
impossible odds of finding her, they know God
had something to do with it.
And I said OTHERS prayed, but I also had to answer
the original poster's question or I wouldn't be
giving proper credit to God for having answered
said prayer.
That previous poster asked if anyone ever had a prayer
answered... the answer is yes.
> Boatwright is so full of himself it's a miracle he doesn't
> explode. He wants us to believe for all those years, God
> wouldn't do the right thing until Boatwright intervened
> and asked God to return the girl. Boatwright must think he's
> Moses, able to direct God to do the right thing.
Moses didn't direct God to do anything.
> God wouldn't do the right thing until Boatwright asked God
> to return the kidnapped girl. And nobody else's prayers
> moved God to return the kidnapped girl. Nope. God wouldn't
> budge an inch, not until Boatwright stood up and asked God
> to return the girl.
Andy boy must be having loads of fun right now.
Uhm... I openly stated that OTHERS prayed too,
that they probably prayed for years, right up to her
being found.
In contrast, I seriously prayed only a few months before
the lead appeared. I was SURPRIZED to hear him say
there was a lead after it. It was pretty strange to
hear him say it.
But of course, you'll continue to write God off as
being not even a consideration, while people believing
God, they know he had everything to do with it, regardless
of who prayed about it.
> What an arrogant, blasphemous ass.
Because someone prays to God, their prayer being
answered, you assume that makes them "an arrogant,
blasphemous ass".
===================================================
That's your best attempt to wipe out prayer to God.
===================================================
It won't have any effect.
And don't forget Andy boy, sins against the Holy Spirit
are NOT forgiven.
Andrew Skolnick
No, not because someone prays to God. But when you publicly boast the
way you did, that God did not act to rescue a kidnapped girl for 8 years
and only did so because you asked God to, I call you an arrogant,
blasphemous ass.
You boasted that God quickly answered your prayer, after turning a deaf
ear to the cries and prayers of others for 8 long years.
Shame on you for your arrogance.
--Andrew Skolnick
http://nasw.org/users/ASkolnick
John P. Boatwright
> John P. Boatwright wrote:
> > Because someone prays to God, their prayer being
> > answered, you assume that makes them "an arrogant,
> > blasphemous ass".
> No, not because someone prays to God. But when you
> publicly boast the way you did,
I replied to what the poster asked.
I specifically stated that OTHERS prayed too.
I specifically said there was NO EVIDENCE that God
did what was asked, that atheists could openly reject
him as having done anything concerning it.
I specifically said that I saw it as an answered prayer
just as the original poster had asked about.
I specifically said that atheists would simply laugh
it off.
I specifically said that there was NOTHING to gain from
having told what happened, that instead there'd simply
be ridicule for having credited God for having returned
the girl.
And true to form, here you are to say God had nothing
to do with it and that no one should pray to God. That
if they do, they're an "ignorant blasphemous ass".
> that God did not act to rescue a kidnapped girl for 8 years
> and only did so because you asked God to, I call you an
> arrogant, blasphemous ass.
I stated what occurred. I did NOT say God "only" answered
because I prayed about it.
==========================
That's you LYING about it.
==========================
I specifically said OTHERS prayed too.
But you denying said prayer having any effect, denying
God could answer it, denying he would act on it...
===========================================
That's your best efforts to SILENCE prayer.
===========================================
By saying any one person's prayer is worthless to God,
you then claim ALL are worthless.
In contrast, I say all prayers are able to be heard
by God, but only when they've erased the sin: asking
for forgiveness through Jesus's sacrifice.
> You boasted that God quickly answered your prayer,
> after turning a deaf ear to the cries and prayers
> of others for 8 long years.
It was actually about 6-7 years, I remember her coming
back right about 7 years later, taking months to get
through all the red tape.
There was no boasting about it. It was an HONEST statement
of what occurred. The original poster asked specifically
if anyone had prayed to God and had their prayer answered.
> Shame on you for your arrogance.
The ATHEIST asked the question, he got his answer.
=========================================================
Yes God answers prayer, there's no reason not to ask him.
=========================================================
You trying to void prayer by calling someone an "ignorant
blasphemous ass" for having prayed and gotten an answer...
Big deal.
It won't work, you can't SILENCE prayer, people know
God does in fact listen.
But God won't void all FREE WILL. Hence that FREE WILL
does allow sin to occur and God won't go out and stop
all sin from occurring.
So you pray and ask for help. And sometimes against
all the odds, stuff only God could do, sometimes
he takes on the sin, forces it to end, and returns
the child.
John P. Boatwright
> John Boatwright wrote:
> >I'd be quite remiss if I didn't acknowledge God having
> >answered said prayer.
> >I'm telling you guy, just months before she was found,
> >I had prayed that God would resolve it and bring her
> >back. Serious prayer, seriously asking God to help,
> >seriously KNOWING that he could solve it.
> Are you implying that those "lots of people" who prayed
> were not seriously praying and/or that they didn't seriously
> think God was could do anything?
I said I had seriously prayed to God a few months before.
Prior to that time, I assumed his relatives would and that
others would. Those others would be seriously praying,
probably praying right up to when she was found.
> Furthermore, God intervening shortly after the
> kidnapping would not have disabled free-will because the
> kidnapper would still have had free-will to kidnap the child.
Uhm... God returning the child right after the kidnapping
would have disabled the kidnappers FREE WILL to take
the child.
> You can't claim here that God was protecting the free-will of
> those who sin as a reason why he didn't intervene shortly
> after the kidnapping because he intervened, according to
> you, eight years later.
God let the kidnapper have FREE WILL for 6-7 years, as
concerning the kidnapping.
But from my perspective, I seriously asked God to resolve it,
to end it, I knew he could, and he did. What was surprizing
was to hear about the lead only a few months after.
Certainly others prayed similar prayers, they were probably
just as releaved when their prayers were answered.
> One last thing I'm curious about. Did God intervene
> 8 years after the fact based solely on your sincere request or
> did he also intervene because he loved and truly cared
> about the well-being of the child and her family? IOW, does
> God make an emotionless decision to intervene that is based
> only on whether a certain individual or a certain number of
> individuals sincerely asks for the intervention?
Think about this:
You don't control God, God has FREE WILL.
God decided that YOU would have FREE WILL too.
God decided everyone else has FREE WILL.
So even though you ask God to act on something, there
is no guarantee that God will override another persons
FREE WILL to sin. It's up to God when he'll override
another person's FREE WILL to sin.
That's why people pray.
I simply said that I had seriously prayed before the lead
showed up, I was surprized when the guy said it since it
had looked hopeless up until that point.
In my mind, that prayer was answered. In other people's
minds, their prayers were also answered.
John P. Boatwright
> John P. Boatwright wrote
> > There was no "I'll hate you if you don't", no conditions,
> > just an honest knowing that he could solve it if anyone
> > could. That only God could bring her back (if she was still
> > alive). There was no one else able to take on such a thing
> > and make it happen.
> "(if she was still alive) "
> Why the caveat? Is not your god omnipotent?
You're hoping to force God to do something
against his own FREE WILL. If God takes away the
breath of life, why would you ask for it back?
Assuming she had died, she'd have been with God.
Why would you want to take her away from God?
The stuff was simple, if she was still alive, I
knew God was able solve it and bring her back.
So I seriously asked for such.
I know 100% that God is there, so it breaks down
to simply asking him, and if he feels it's acceptable,
it happens.
God returned her, so it must have been acceptable.
Eric
John Boatwright wrote:
>I'd be quite remiss if I didn't acknowledge God having
>answered said prayer.
>
>I'm telling you guy, just months before she was found,
>I had prayed that God would resolve it and bring her
>back. Serious prayer, seriously asking God to help,
>seriously KNOWING that he could solve it.
John,
Are you implying that those "lots of people" who prayed
were not seriously praying and/or that they didn't seriously
think God was could do anything?
Furthermore, God intervening shortly after the
kidnapping would not have disabled free-will because the
kidnapper would still have had free-will to kidnap the child.
You can't claim here that God was protecting the free-will of
those who sin as a reason why he didn't intervene shortly
after the kidnapping because he intervened, according to
you, eight years later.
One last thing I'm curious about. Did God intervene
8 years after the fact based solely on your sincere request or
did he also intervene because he loved and truly cared
about the well-being of the child and her family? IOW, does
God make an emotionless decision to intervene that is based
only on whether a certain individual or a certain number of
individuals sincerely asks for the intervention?
Thanks,
Eric
L. Karney
> Kathy wrote:
> >
> > I guess the parents' standard prayer to keep their child safe wasn't good
> > enough?
>
> I had asked him about that time or before if he believed God
> and the answer was basically no.
>
> So why do atheists always want to blame God for what people do?
I figure its because people made up the concept of a god, they can assign
blame, or anything else they choose, to it. Doesn't make it real.
--
There is no reality -- only perception
WoN ereH
>>answered said prayer.
>>
>>I'm telling you guy, just months before she was found,
>>I had prayed that God would resolve it and bring her
>>back. Serious prayer, seriously asking God to help,
>>seriously KNOWING that he could solve it.
So-called religious people live in fear instead of having the courage to be
free-ly responsible for their actions.
Mark P
their kidnapped children back?
*Intentionally left uncapatalized
Eric
Eric wrote:
>> Furthermore, God intervening shortly after the
>> kidnapping would not have disabled free-will because the
>> kidnapper would still have had free-will to kidnap the child.
John Boatwright wrote:
>Uhm... God returning the child right after the kidnapping
>would have disabled the kidnappers FREE WILL to take
>the child.
How does this disable the free will of the kidnapper? For
instance, could you explain, how , if God made an anonomous phone
call to the proper authorities about the childs whereabouts a year
after the abduction , would this interfere with the kidnappers free
will to kidnap the child, since by this time the kidnapper had already
exercised his free will to kidnap the child?
Eric wrote:
>> You can't claim here that God was protecting the free-will of
>> those who sin as a reason why he didn't intervene shortly
>> after the kidnapping because he intervened, according to
>> you, eight years later.
>
>God let the kidnapper have FREE WILL for 6-7 years, as
>concerning the kidnapping.
So God will suspend free will when it suits him correct? If so, it
is evident there is no totally overriding desire in God to protect the
free will of his creation since in this situation (8 years later) the
hypothetical desire is not manifested. The question remains,
what desire overid this one?
Eric wrote:
>> One last thing I'm curious about. Did God intervene
>> 8 years after the fact based solely on your sincere request or
>> did he also intervene because he loved and truly cared
>> about the well-being of the child and her family? IOW, does
>> God make an emotionless decision to intervene that is based
>> only on whether a certain individual or a certain number of
>> individuals sincerely asks for the intervention?
John wrote:
>Think about this:
> You don't control God, God has FREE WILL.
> God decided that YOU would have FREE WILL too.
> God decided everyone else has FREE WILL.
>
Except when he decides they shouldn't have it, correct? You
have claimed that 8 years later God has decided that the kidnapper
should not have free-will.
John wrote:
>So even though you ask God to act on something, there
>is no guarantee that God will override another persons
>FREE WILL to sin.
But you didn't answer my question. What is responsible for
God's decision on removing free will? Is it the simple fact
that many have requested removing of that free will or is
it only/also out of love and caring for the child and
her family?
John wrote:
> It's up to God when he'll override
>another person's FREE WILL to sin.
>
>That's why people pray.
>
>I simply said that I had seriously prayed before the lead
>showed up, I was surprized when the guy said it since it
>had looked hopeless up until that point.
>
You mentioned that information on this kidnapping was
available on dejanews. Can you give me the name of the
family or a pointer to the news items?
Thanks,
Eric
B. Richardson
Him before He'll help us out?
I love my wife and children very much, but if they need my help, I don't
require that they drop to their knees and plead with me before I'll
assist them.
Ÿalmsmith
or serve the world, or serve ourselves.
If we are willing to serve God,
then He gives us power to be called sons of God.
If we are not willing to serve God, then we do not glorify God,
and there is not eternity in us. Eternity only abides in
those which in thier being glorify God.
In article <...>, "B. Richardson" <btr...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
^ If God supposedly loves us all so much, why does He need us to pray to
^ Him before He'll help us out?
^
^ I love my wife and children very much, but if they need my help, I don't
^ require that they drop to their knees and plead with me before I'll
^ assist them.
n e w psalm
d c harris
<asko...@blockspam.mindspring.com> wrote:
>
>
>What next from Boatwright? A bid for saintdom?
>
D C -
These debates on religion tend not
to be fertile. The hectoring sarcasm
above contributes nothing at all.
The question behind the sarcasm
is perfectly worthy. But basically
the question is why does God permit
evil if he is good? And the answer
is if he did not we would not exist.
God also has to be found - he has to
brought into one's life. The question you
ask is an old question answered with
empty rhetoric.
yorick
John P. Boatwright <sa...@teleport.com> wrote in message
news:37BF84...@teleport.com...
> yorick wrote:
>
[snip: JPB prayed for lost child, child found, JPB claims prayer caused
this.
Prayer was "bring her back, if..."]
> > "(if she was still alive) "
>
> > Why the caveat? Is not your god omnipotent?
>
> You're hoping to force God to do something
> against his own FREE WILL. If God takes away the
> breath of life, why would you ask for it back?
> Assuming she had died, she'd have been with God.
> Why would you want to take her away from God?
>
ie. "If god takes away the child, why ask for it back?". After all, the
abduction had to have been god's will, given his omnipotency and
omniscience.
In either case you believe that the event was the will of god.
Do you see why I find an inconsistency?
[snip]
yorick
[various points "debated" with Andrew Skolnick]
> But God won't void all FREE WILL. Hence that FREE WILL
> does allow sin to occur and God won't go out and stop
> all sin from occurring.
I do not see how there can be any "free will" if god
(a) knows every decision everyone will make from birth to death
and
(b) is all-powerful.
It is a contradiction.
At best you can claim the *illusion* of free will.
If there is no free will, then there cannot be "sin".
[snip]
JRM
Dene Bebbington
>Medieval Knievel wrote:
>>
>> John P. Boatwright wrote in message <37BE38...@teleport.com>...
>>
>> >mentioned they'd gotten a lead, there I was asking
>> >God to help.
>>
>> god was so concerned about the kid in the first place, why would he let her
>> get abducted at all?
>
>Why, so Boatwright could boast that it was his prayer that God listened
>to and saved the girl. After all, God works is strange ways. He'd allow
>a baby to be stollen from parents and then waited until his chosen one,
>John P. Boatwright, prayed for the child 8 years later before He
>intervened. Just so to show us how important Boatwright is in His eyes.
>
>Or so Boatwright seems to think.
It seems to be a case of a person (JB) being as vain as the God he
worships.
--
Dene Bebbington http://www.bebbo.demon.co.uk
"Beside the braes of dawn. One clear new morning. Down where the lilies
stood in bloom. I knew that I was just a stranger in this world. A wind
just passing through." - Calum & Rory Macdonald (Runrig)
WoN ereH
>to be fertile.
That's because once you have been successfully brainwashed by your parents (who
themselves have been brainwashed) it takes a giant leap of FAITH to think for
yourself.
>God also has to be found - he has to
>brought into one's life.\
People that have been brainwashed are indeed often "happier" than they
otherwise would be. Making your own decisions, contemplating the surreality of
life, can be heady stuff. Ignorance may be bliss but it's not freedom.
I'm using 'brainwashing' loosely. Ancient man prayed to the sun out of fear of
the unknown. He believed it was a god because that is what he was taught to
believe. When you are taught such things when you are young or vulnerable, you
are being brainwashed. Try to think about that objectively. Can't?
Brainwashing.
B. Richardson
Andrew Skolnick
No. But he* has to wait until he* is asked by someone as worthy as John
Boatwright. You see, if Mr. Boatwright didn't finally intercede, god*
would never have returned the kidnapped girl to her long grieving
parents.
Or at least that's what this Boatwright would have us believe.
When Boatwright speaks, god* listens.
--Andrew Skolnick
http://nasw.org/users/ASkolnick
Paul Duca
"John P. Boatwright" wrote:
> Andres64 wrote:
>
> > Does God answer prayers?
>
> Yep, he certainly does.
>
I don't consider a "F--- YOU!" much of an answer...
Paul
dotcom
>
> In article <37BF20...@blockspam.mindspring.com>, Andrew Skolnick
> <asko...@blockspam.mindspring.com> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> >What next from Boatwright? A bid for saintdom?
> >
>
> D C -
>
> above contributes nothing at all.
Sarcasm is a quality that renders questions meaningless?
> The question behind the sarcasm
> is perfectly worthy.
But will you answer it?
> But basically
> the question is why does God permit
> evil if he is good?
It looks to me as if the question was "Will Boatwright be nominated for
sainthood", but then, I'm not reading anything into it.
> And the answer
> is if he did not we would not exist.
A: That answer has nothing to do with that question.
B: Why would we not exist without evil?
> God also has to be found - he has to
> brought into one's life. The question you
> ask is an old question answered with
> empty rhetoric.
OK, it's an old question. Why don't you have an better answer than empty
rhetoric? You don't have a real answer?
dotcom, off...
yes, I am an atheist, and no, I don't want to hear about jeeezus
There is no god worth our worship.
Martin Schlottmann
Avital Pilpel
someone wants, or what would an all-powerful god do with the meat sacrificed
to him.
John P. Boatwright
> > You're hoping to force God to do something
> > against his own FREE WILL. If God takes away the
> > breath of life, why would you ask for it back?
> > Assuming she had died, she'd have been with God.
> > Why would you want to take her away from God?
> It seems to me that the same argument applies to the
> abduction itself. ie. "If god takes away the child,
> why ask for it back?".
God did not take the child away, a PERSON did. That
person had FREE WILL to take the child, God had FREE
WILL to allow the sin.
But if God removes that persons FREE WILL, how
can that person ever sin?
You're implying that God should always remove FREE WILL
so no one can sin.
In doing so, they'd lose FREE WILL.
> After all, the abduction had to have been god's will,
> given his omnipotency and omniscience.
The kidnapper is God?
No, the kidnapper has their own FREE WILL, just like
God has his own FREE WILL.
> In either case you believe that the event was the will of god.
I believe that God had something to do with her being
found and returned. The odds of her being found when
being about 1 year old and based on a picture, out
in another country, already settled in grade school...
ZIP.
In such a case, I believe God had something to do with
the return. In doing so, the kidnapper's FREE WILL
was removed (in this matter) and the child was returned.
> Do you see why I find an inconsistency?
Ya, you keep thinking God is doing what PEOPLE do.
God did not instigate the kidnapping, he allowed it,
but eventually after people prayed about it, God
had the child returned.
But notice there guy, at the time the child was
kidnapped there was no belief God was there. And
God said when you turn away from him, he'll turn
from you.
There is in fact interaction from God, he has
FREE WILL to interact. But he does NOT have to do
what you command, nor does he have to stop all
sin.
Ÿalmsmith
answer was that we don't have to beg Him for anything, but we _do_ have to
be voluntarily submissive to Him and to His will in order to glorify Him,
for to glorify Him _is_ eternal life, and there is nothing outside of that
which will remain, that is, all things other than those which glorify God.
Therefore the question was wrong, asking why we have to get on our knees
and beg God for things, when that's not at all even remotely what we do.
The question is whether we wish to serve God, or we want God to serve us.
If we seek to make god serve us, then we wind up worshipping demons and
following in thier dirty lusts, however, if we seek solely to serve God
then we sanctify our houses from all sin as we travel forward on the path
laid before us by God.
And as our expression glorifies Him, so we build our eternal abode.
In article <...>, "B. Richardson" <btr...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
^ This really didn't answer the question.
^
^ Ÿalmsmith wrote:
^
^ > thats right. It's all a question about whether we will serve God,
^ > or serve the world, or serve ourselves.
^ > If we are willing to serve God,
^ > then He gives us power to be called sons of God.
^ > If we are not willing to serve God, then we do not glorify God,
^ > and there is not eternity in us. Eternity only abides in
^ > those which in thier being glorify God.
^ >
^ > In article <...>, "B. Richardson" <btr...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
^ >
^ > ^ If God supposedly loves us all so much, why does He need us to pray to
^ > ^ Him before He'll help us out?
^ > ^
^ > ^ I love my wife and children very much, but if they need my help, I don't
^ > ^ require that they drop to their knees and plead with me before I'll
^ > ^ assist them.
^ >
^
---
n e w psalm
- everything for the glory of God!
the Ÿalmist in the valley of peace
B. Richardson
> Yes it did, the question was why do we have to beg God for things, and my
> answer was that we don't have to beg Him for anything, but we _do_ have to
> be voluntarily submissive to Him and to His will in order to glorify Him,
> for to glorify Him _is_ eternal life, and there is nothing outside of that
> which will remain, that is, all things other than those which glorify God.
>
> Therefore the question was wrong, asking why we have to get on our knees
> and beg God for things, when that's not at all even remotely what we do.
>
> The question is whether we wish to serve God, or we want God to serve us.
Okay, then let me rephrase my original question and leave out the part about the
begging:
If God loves us so much, why does He require that we be submissive and serve Him
before He'll help us.
I love my wife and children very much and I would not require them to be
submissive to me and/or serve me before I would help them should they need it.
B. Richardson
> Yes it did, the question was why do we have to beg God for things, and my
> answer was that we don't have to beg Him for anything, but we _do_ have to
> be voluntarily submissive to Him and to His will in order to glorify Him,
> for to glorify Him _is_ eternal life, and there is nothing outside of that
> which will remain, that is, all things other than those which glorify God.
Also, if God is so big on all of us worshipping Him, why doesn't He just appear
in the sky and say "Here I am! Please worship me."? I would think if He did this,
He would sure get a lot more converts than relying on the faithful to convince
the doubters to put their faith in the proclamations of a 6,000-year-old book.
John P. Boatwright
> Ÿalmsmith wrote:
> > The question is whether we wish to serve God, or we
> > want God to serve us.
> Okay, then let me rephrase my original question and
> leave out the part about the begging:
> If God loves us so much, why does He require that we
> be submissive and serve Him before He'll help us.
> I love my wife and children very much and I would not
> require them to be submissive to me and/or serve me
> before I would help them should they need it.
And if your wife, kids, your grandkids, etc... took your car,
house, your bank account, tried to get you fired from your job,
committed fraud against you, got married to 20 other spouses,
told everyone around you that you were a murderer, liar, theif,
idiot, deranged luney, tried to have you killed, hated you,
pitied you, felt you were powerless, inept, felt that anything
to erase you would be the proper thing to consider, and of
course... told everyone that you now don't exist.
You'd then serve them?
ha ha ha....
Ya right.
So why should God serve such?
Sure God will turn back to those returning to him.
But God has FREE WILL just like you, he wants people
to find him, to return to him. But he won't force
people to and he won't do sideshow tricks to prove
himself.
God already gave more than enough proof that he exists.
Atheists ignoring it, that's just one of the items listed
above, atheists tend to do most of the rest too.
yorick
d c harris <dcands...@free4all.co.uk> wrote in message
news:935281557.28252...@news.in2home.co.uk...
> In article <37BF20...@blockspam.mindspring.com>, Andrew Skolnick
> <asko...@blockspam.mindspring.com> wrote:
>
> [snip opinion]
>...But basically
> the question is why does God permit
> is if he did not we would not exist.
> brought into one's life. The question you
> ask is an old question answered with
> empty rhetoric.
"The question you ask is an old question answered with empty rhetoric."
I agree.
JRM
Stephen Knight
<sa...@teleport.com> wrote:
>God did not take the child away, a PERSON did. That
>person had FREE WILL to take the child, God had FREE
>WILL to allow the sin.
YOUR god had free will to allow a child abduction? And it didn't do
anything about it? Sick.
Excuse me. I have to vomit.
Steve Knight #855
Knight of BAAWA
DMX
pray and pray and pray. but to no avail our prayers were never answered and
my mother just got worse until she died in the most painful of ways. Now
before my mothers untimely death I went to church every sunday and tried to
be the best christian I could be but I guess God just skipped me. So to sum
up what I have to say There is no God.
d c harris <dcands...@free4all.co.uk> wrote in message
news:935281557.28252...@news.in2home.co.uk...
> In article <37BF20...@blockspam.mindspring.com>, Andrew Skolnick
> <asko...@blockspam.mindspring.com> wrote:
>
>
> >
> >
> >What next from Boatwright? A bid for saintdom?
> >
>
> D C -
>
> These debates on religion tend not
> to be fertile. The hectoring sarcasm
> above contributes nothing at all.
> The question behind the sarcasm
> is perfectly worthy. But basically
John P. Boatwright
> No. But he* has to wait until he* is asked by
> someone as worthy as John Boatwright. You see,
> if Mr. Boatwright didn't finally intercede, god*
> would never have returned the kidnapped girl
> to her long grieving parents.
Boring.
Look Andy boy, the ATHEIST was asking if anyone
had ever prayed and then got their prayer answered.
I said I had prayed a serious prayer to God, that
the kidnapped girl would be found and returned. That
the issue would be resolved. That the father of the
girl would taken off the list of suspects since I KNEW
he would have had NOTHING to do with it.
So a few months after, we're on the phone and he starts
talking about a lead in the case, that the Feds were
talking about stuff and he couldn't say anything about it.
Months drug on and bit by bit more was known. Then all
at once, they knew who, where, why etc...
The case was about unbelievable since she was missing
at about 1 year old and found years later already settled
in.
From all this, I felt the prayer was answered.
I never said I was the only one praying, lots of
people were praying.
And it paid off, God delivered.
> Or at least that's what this Boatwright would have us believe.
I don't care if you believe it.
At this point, it's a nothing, plain old fluff.
There is NO PROOF that God did anything concerning it,
no evidence, nothing.
Now if God tosses out evidence that he did it, fine.
But I assumed by answering the ATHEIST's question about
having prayed to God and having gotten an answer, that
it would end in ridicule over it and much the same
replies you've tossed out.
There is nothing to gain by saying it, but I am bound
to give credit to God for having answered the prayer,
regardless of what atheists would think about it.
> When Boatwright speaks, god* listens.
God is not deaf.
God said so in the bible.
You don't have to go to Mary, the apostles, etc...
You ask God directly, but you toss away the sin by
first asking for forgiveness of sins through Jesus's
sacrifice.
If you don't do this, God won't listen due to the sin.
No Pope's required, no Mary, no etc...
Repent of your sins, ask for forgiveness through
Jesus's sacrifice, then pray to God.
It's just that simple.
No long chants, no repeated endless verses, just
simple and plain praying to God.
God made it all, Jesus died for our sins.
Proof God described the planet density profile
BEFORE science did:
http://www.teleport.com/~salad/4god/density.htm
(see the 2 graphs, obviously God was right in Genesis)
> --Andrew Skolnick
> http://nasw.org/users/ASkolnick
yorick
John P. Boatwright <sa...@teleport.com> wrote in message
news:37C0B4...@teleport.com...
> yorick wrote:
>
> > John P. Boatwright <sa...@teleport.com> wrote in message
>
[...]
> God did not take the child away, a PERSON did. That
> person had FREE WILL to take the child, God had FREE
> WILL to allow the sin.
>
(mercy: compassion or forbearance shown especially to an offender or to one
subject to one's power).
But the claim is that god *is* merciful.
As I believe that "actions speak louder than words", I can only conclude
that god is not merciful. Therefore any claims that he is must be lies.
The alternative is that he is not, in fact, omniscient and omnipotent.
Or am I missing something?
> There is in fact interaction from God, he has
> FREE WILL to interact. But he does NOT have to do
> what you command, nor does he have to stop all
> sin.
>
If god has the power to stop sin, but does not, then he must be responsible
for that sin. Therefore god must be a sinner. But sin is defined as an act
against god's will.
This appears to be a contradiction to me.
Is it not?
[...]
John P. Boatwright
> God does not answer prayers,
Ya he does.
> when my mother was sick all I used to do was
> pray and pray and pray. but to no avail our
> prayers were never answered and my mother just
> got worse until she died in the most painful of
> ways. Now before my mothers untimely death I
> went to church every sunday and tried to be the
> best christian I could be but I guess God just
> skipped me.
Uhm... people died EVERY DAY.
Why did you think God would change this common
occurance just for you?
Dying is STANDARD STUFF, people die EVERY DAY.
YOU will NOT escape dying.
> So to sum up what I have to say There is no God.
That's it?
No valid reasons, just because you wanted everyone
around you to live for 200 more years, you're going
to reject God?
Odd.
David G Dick
John P. Boatwright wrote in message <37C11...@teleport.com>...
>DMX wrote:
>
>> God does not answer prayers,
>
>Ya he does.
Yet, further in your own post, you admit that he did not answer DMX's
prayers. Obviously god does not answer all prayers. And if he doesn't
answer them all, how can we know if any of them have been answered? We
can't. There is no way you can honestly say you know of a prayer that has
definitely been answered by the christian god.
--
David G Dick
"A man without religion is like a fish without a bicycle."
The Rector
If god answers your prayers, then god exists.
If god doesn't answer your prayer, then .... oh well, he
must have had better things to do that day.
Its like those fraudulent Mexican Cancer clinics - the rare
time the disease goes into remission, they claim success for
their treatment, and when it doesn't work - they just ignore
it.
* Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network *
The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet - Free!
The Rector
round the earth, and obviously god was right about pi
equalling 3.0
and god was right last night that boatright ignored all
evidence contrary to his own private world view.
Jennie Hazen
> John wrote:
> >Think about this:
>
> > You don't control God, God has FREE WILL.
> > God decided that YOU would have FREE WILL too.
> > God decided everyone else has FREE WILL.
> >
>
> >So even though you ask God to act on something, there
> >is no guarantee that God will override another persons
> >FREE WILL to sin.
:
> > It's up to God when he'll override
> >another person's FREE WILL to sin.
Umhmm. And the child's free will to be back home and the
parents' will to have her back all seem to be interfered with
no problem.
Any deity who acts like this is unworthy of respect, much less
worship.
Y
> God made it all, Jesus died for our sins.
>
I'm still battling with this concept ... this
is too absurd .... according to you:
- God had a son
- That son is part of God (trinity)
- God created all things - inc. all progeny of Adam
- Jesus suffered painful death on the cross
so that the rest of mankind may do as they please
so long as they repent - then go to heaven.
Where does that leave mankind before Jesus - aren't
they the unlucky ones.
And to all those ATHIESTS out there who don't believe
in miracles - do you still say 'Oh my God!' in times
of calamity?
Tara!
-------------------------------------------------------------
To reply by e-mail remove '000' from my address
-------------------------------------------------------------
Andrew A. Skolnick
Stephen Knight wrote:
> On Sun, 22 Aug 1999 19:39:53 -0700, "John P. Boatwright"
> <sa...@teleport.com> wrote:
>
> >God did not take the child away, a PERSON did. That
> >person had FREE WILL to take the child, God had FREE
> >WILL to allow the sin.
>
> YOUR god had free will to allow a child abduction? And it didn't do
> anything about it? Sick.
>
> Excuse me. I have to vomit.
God had to wait 8 years until his anointed one, Mr. Boatwright, got around
to asking God to help. For 8 years, people prayed for the child. But it
took Mr. Boatwright's prayer to get God to act.
-- Andrew Skolnick
http://nasw.org/users/ASkolnick
Stan Paul
I haven't really had a calamity since becoming atheist, but if I did,
I'm sure I would respond as I always have: by doing and/or saying
whatever seems most appropriate at the time. I strive not to have pat
responses to situations.
St Spaul
Stan Paul
responses to situations. BTW, I do believe in miracles, as they are
nothing more that a coincidence with a profoundly positive outcome, as
opposed to a disaster, a coincidence with a profoundly negative outcome.
St Spaul
Ÿalmsmith
^ Ÿalmsmith wrote:
^
^ > Yes it did, the question was why do we have to beg God for things, and my
^ > answer was that we don't have to beg Him for anything, but we _do_ have to
^ > be voluntarily submissive to Him and to His will in order to glorify Him,
^ > for to glorify Him _is_ eternal life, and there is nothing outside of that
^ > which will remain, that is, all things other than those which glorify God.
^ >
^ > Therefore the question was wrong, asking why we have to get on our knees
^ > and beg God for things, when that's not at all even remotely what we do.
^ >
^ > The question is whether we wish to serve God, or we want God to serve us.
^
^ Okay, then let me rephrase my original question and leave out the part
^ about the begging:
^
^ If God loves us so much, why does He require that we be submissive and
^ serve Him before He'll help us.
Because God is the master of all creation. God, and God alone can make
all things perfect. We, in the power of the flesh, are unable to attain
perfection, but God is so perfect that we can't live with Him unless we
are perfect too.
God is perfect and we are imperfect because we chose to learn the knowlege
of evil. Therefore we must now _choose_ to abandon our imperfections and
yeild to the perfection of God.
God made it easy for us to do this by giving us His Son so that we could
_choose_ to yeild to His perfection, and so that we could choose to
magnify all that is pure and true in the name of God above ourselves so
that we too could have life after ourselves.
Therefore if we say we are of God and we have not submitted to God, then
we have called God imperfect, which cannot be. We can only be of God,
while God remains perfect, if we submit our glory to the perfection in His
Son, Jesus Christ.
Submission to God is not a momentary thing, it's not 'do I have to obey
today to get that missions trip I want?' not at all, submission to God is
to place your eternity past, presence, and future all in the hands of the
great Creator to do His will with in the honor of the name of Jesus
Christ.
^ I love my wife and children very much and I would not require them to be
^ submissive to me and/or serve me before I would help them should they need it.
yang hu
> And to all those ATHIESTS out there who don't believe
> in miracles - do you still say 'Oh my God!' in times
> of calamity?
I said "Oh Shit", becuase shit is more reliable.
--
Yang
a.a.#28
EAC mole and other furry creatures
rev #-273.15, high priest of the most frigid church of Kelvin
"I don't see Star Wars as profoundly religious. I see Star Wars as
taking all the issues that religion represents and trying to
distill them down into a more modern and easily accessible construct
--that there is a greater mystery out there. I remember when I was
10 years old, I asked my mother, "If there's only one God, why are
there so many religions?" I've been pondering that question ever
since, and the conclusion I've come to is that all the religions
are true."
George Lucas, Time Magazine, 4/17/1999
Andrew A. Skolnick
yang hu wrote:
> Y wrote:
>
> > And to all those ATHIESTS out there who don't believe
> > in miracles - do you still say 'Oh my God!' in times
> > of calamity?
>
> I said "Oh Shit", becuase shit is more reliable.
Makes sense.
Shit happens.
But God remains an unproved and unfalsifiable hypothesis.
The effect, no doubt will be the same. You'll get no reply from either.
WoN ereH
>all things perfect. We, in the power of the flesh, are unable to attain
>perfection, but God is so perfect that we can't live with Him unless we
>are perfect too.
Cult speak. Scary how brainwashed people sound like tape recorders.
John P. Boatwright
> It seems to be a case of a person (JB) being as
> vain as the God he worships.
The stuff looked hopeless at the time, the friend
was saying they'd pretty much given up. At the
time he was saying it, the thought occurred that in
such a case, God was in fact the only one able to
pull it off. So I seriously prayed to God, was
kinda surprized when the lead showed up, hence that
says to me, God delivered.
Lot's of other people prayed too, their prayers were
also answered. Since those people possibly aren't
here to answer for their prayer being answered, you'll
just have to assume that they prayed as well.
The oringal poster asked if anyone had a prayer
answered, the answer is of course ... yes.
God made it all, Jesus died for our sins.
Proof God described the planet density profile
yang hu
> The stuff looked hopeless at the time, the friend
> was saying they'd pretty much given up. At the
> time he was saying it, the thought occurred that in
> such a case, God was in fact the only one able to
> pull it off. So I seriously prayed to God, was
> kinda surprized when the lead showed up, hence that
> says to me, God delivered.
A kid was just pulled out of the wreckage from the horrible
earthquake in Turkey after 5 days. As the rescuers were about
to leave to search some other area, the kid told the rescuers
that he dreamt that his mother is still alive. Lo and behold
they dug up her mom and she is alive and well.
How much do you want to bet that the kid is a Muslim?
Al Klein
>Because God is the master of all creation. God, and God alone can make
>all things perfect. We, in the power of the flesh, are unable to attain
>perfection, but God is so perfect that we can't live with Him unless we
>are perfect too.
But you just said that we are unable to be perfect, so we can't live
with him.
>God is perfect and we are imperfect because we chose to learn the knowlege
>of evil.
I was never given that choice, so I never made it. So your statement
is wrong.
> Therefore we must now _choose_ to abandon our imperfections and
>yeild to the perfection of God.
But you said that we CAN'T be perfect.
>God made it easy for us to do this by giving us His Son so that we could
>_choose_ to yeild to His perfection
How does Jesus' death enable us to yield, that we couldn't before
Jesus was?
>Therefore if we say we are of God and we have not submitted to God, then
>we have called God imperfect, which cannot be. We can only be of God,
>while God remains perfect, if we submit our glory to the perfection in His
>Son, Jesus Christ.
And, if we're NOT of god?
>^ I love my wife and children very much
But Jesus commanded that you hate your family, so I guess you still
have a long way to go to be a True Christian.
> and I would not require them to be
>^ submissive to me and/or serve me before I would help them should they need it.
But god would. So what, exactly, are you saying? That you're not
god? I think we kind of guessed that already.
--
Al - Unnumbered Atheist #infinity
aklein at villagenet dot com
WoN ereH
>to leave to search some other area, the kid told the rescuers
>that he dreamt that his mother is still alive. Lo and behold
>they dug up her mom and she is alive and well.
>
>How much do you want to bet that the kid is a Muslim?
>
I would also bet that kid heard his mother calling out from (what was once)
another room while he was semi-conscious/dreaming.
Debra
Chris Nelson
news:7psjrs$i...@news.service.uci.edu...
> Y wrote:
>
> > And to all those ATHIESTS out there who don't believe
> > in miracles - do you still say 'Oh my God!' in times
> > of calamity?
>
>
> I said "Oh Shit", becuase shit is more reliable.
Just because I say "Oh my god" or "Jesus Christ doesn't mean
I believe in god or jesus. Just because I say "Oh shit"
doesn't mean I have to take a shit.
They're meaningless expressions.
Chris Nelson
John P. Boatwright
> John P. Boatwright wrote:
> > The stuff looked hopeless at the time, the friend
> > was saying they'd pretty much given up. At the
> > time he was saying it, the thought occurred that in
> > such a case, God was in fact the only one able to
> > pull it off. So I seriously prayed to God, was
> > kinda surprized when the lead showed up, hence that
> > says to me, God delivered.
> A kid was just pulled out of the wreckage from the horrible
> earthquake in Turkey after 5 days. As the rescuers were about
> to leave to search some other area, the kid told the rescuers
> that he dreamt that his mother is still alive. Lo and behold
> they dug up her mom and she is alive and well.
> How much do you want to bet that the kid is a Muslim?
Would it matter?
Eventually EVERYONE will realize that Jesus died for sins.
EVERYONE.
The point is, will they realize it soon enough?
John P. Boatwright
> And obviously god was right in genesis about the sun going
> round the earth, and obviously god was right about pi
> equalling 3.0
The bible NEVER says "pi=3.0".
See http://www.teleport.com/~salad/4god/pi.htm
for details on how the atheists not having much
of any math background, they didn't bother to
include the >>> FOUR GIVENS <<< in the story
problem and instead only used two.
> and god was right last night that boatright ignored all
> evidence contrary to his own private world view.
The RING that God described at the "foundations of
the earth" does in fact describe an explosion at
the start, the same one forming out solar system.
God was right all along, and right >>> 3300 YEARS BEFORE <<<
science.
Heck, science still claims they don't know how planets
formed.
God has the only account matching what is plainly seen.
John P. Boatwright
> John P. Boatwright wrote in message <37C11...@teleport.com>...
> >DMX wrote:
> >> God does not answer prayers,
> >Ya he does.
> Yet, further in your own post, you admit that he did not answer DMX's
> prayers.
Why should God prolong DMX's mother's life by oh say 200 years?
eh?
Is that equitable?
Nah, that's INEQUITY.
> Obviously god does not answer all prayers. And if he doesn't
> answer them all, how can we know if any of them have been
> answered?
Because the prayer asking God to do said stuff was said
and look what happened... it occurred.
AGAINST ALL ODDS, his kid was returned only a few months
after that SERIOUS prayer. It was surprizing when he
mentioned the lead, it was weird, and there's nothing
I could tell him regarding it, he wouldn't have believed
it.
Atheists end up seeing prayer as fluff, nothing. But
the ones praying, they KNOW it was God.
> We can't. There is no way you can honestly say you know
> of a prayer that has definitely been answered by the
> christian god.
ha ha ha...
The stuff happened, it was ALL OVER THE NEWS.
Newspapers, CNN, etc...
Everywhere.
His child was returned after about 7 years being missing.
The prayers were OBVIOUSLY >>> ANSWERED <<<.
I absolutely believe God had his hand in solving it.
You don't get a 1 year old baby's photo solving a
kidnapping years later, in another country, the kid
already settled in, speaking another language, the
mother working and such... again all settled in.
And of course there's not one shred of evidence saying:
* That God solved it
* That ANYONE prayed (unless there were videos or something)
* Or that I prayed, except I'm openly stating it since I
am bound to give God credit for him having solved it
(since he plainly did solve it and an atheist had asked
if anyone ever had a prayer answered).
Again, there is no evidence what-so-ever backing up
the statements, just pure faith.
So YOU go can laugh it off, claim it shows God to be
whatever you feel he is, blah blah blah...
But I end up KNOWING God solved it.
The others that also prayed, they may or may not be reading
this crud. They too end up KNOWING God solved it, that God
answered their prayers.
That's the power of God.
As for DMX's mother dying and him becoming discouraged
over it...
God decided long ago to limit the length of time people
live and that he would decide when people die.
My own mother died a few years back... dust to dust.
Regardless, God has FREE WILL just like all of us have
FREE WILL. God stepping in to correct our actions given
our FREE WILL, the kidnappers FREE WILL to kidnap... etc...
God stepping in to stop it would tend to remove our
FREE WILL, so God does NOT always step in.
Hence you get murderers, theives, liars, etc... 'cuz
the people decide that's what they want to do rather
than what God said to do.
And that's the test, to see who will love God enough to
do what he said to do. And if not, will they then repent
of the sins and attempt to erase said sins by believing
what Jesus said to be true, and then asking God for
forgiveness through Jesus's sacrifice.
yang hu
> > A kid was just pulled out of the wreckage from the horrible
> > earthquake in Turkey after 5 days. As the rescuers were about
> > to leave to search some other area, the kid told the rescuers
> > that he dreamt that his mother is still alive. Lo and behold
> > they dug up her mom and she is alive and well.
>
> > How much do you want to bet that the kid is a Muslim?
>
> Would it matter?
Yes. According to Muslims Jesus is just a human being, and the
deification of this particular human being render the Christians
fit to roast in hell. The fact that the kid possess such supernatural
power according to your logic suggests that the Muslims are right
and the Christians are wrong.
Y
<snip>
> Yes. According to Muslims Jesus is just a human being, and the
> deification of this particular human being render the Christians
> fit to roast in hell. The fact that the kid possess such supernatural
> power according to your logic suggests that the Muslims are right
> and the Christians are wrong.
Muslims do believe that Jesus was a mortal.
The way I look at it ...
- God sent many, many prophets to teach mankind to recognise the
Creator.
- Of the many prophets, David, Moses, Jesus, Muhammed came with
revelations from God.
- All the revelations have been tampered with by mankind to the point
where they no longer represent the intact message of God - apart
from the Quran.
- God has mentioned something to the near meaning that 'He will
protect the Quran from being tampered with'.
- This is true - take todays copy of the Quran and compare it to the
oldest copy in existence (at the time of the prophet 1400 yrs ago)
and it is the same. Indeed millions of muslims all over the world
know the whole Quran by heart.
All prophets taught the same religion ... muslims believe that the
religion is now complete after the last Messiah Muhammed.
Christians stopped believing in the continuation after Jesus.
Jews rejected Jesus as a Messiah and they rejected Muhammed as a
Messiah - they are still waiting for their Messiah.
I am drawn to Islam because every religous action has a basis
from the recorded teachings of Muhammed and the Quran.
We don't have to compromise the will of God by e.g. allowing
homosexual priests, allowing the use of usury etc.
Unlike many others in the ng, I do not feel superior because
of my belief - I don't condemn anyone - God is the ultimate
Judge.. for everyone. I do feel a sense of loss for people
of the Book (Bible,Torah) who are astray.
Ultimately, for those who believe in God and the Last day
- no one will be able to stand in front of the Lord and
claim that he did not have a sign or chance to believe in
the truth.
All praises are due to the Lord - may He guide us ALL
onto the right path and keep us there (esp. me). Amen.
WoN ereH
some inside knowledge to the ultimate reality, it sounds as if you are trying
to convince yourself more than you are trying to convince us. Because deep
down, there's a part of you that yearns to break free of your brainwashing,
that knows that religion is just (some of ) human's way of coping with the fear
of the unknown. Using the supernatural to explain the natural is like trying to
eat with your feet. I suppose it will work, but why not just use your hands?
Debra
G & G
WoN ereH wrote in message <19990825141322...@ng-fr1.aol.com>...
Glenn R. wrote:
Debra! This post is super!
a.drentje
yang hu
> - God has mentioned something to the near meaning that 'He will
> protect the Quran from being tampered with'.
So is my dairy, that doesn't make it divinely inspired.
> - This is true - take todays copy of the Quran and compare it to the
> oldest copy in existence (at the time of the prophet 1400 yrs ago)
> and it is the same. Indeed millions of muslims all over the world
> know the whole Quran by heart.
The same could be said of Confucious' Analect.
yang hu
> Meaning?
> a.d.
Meaning John Boatwright, the previous poster, tried to show the
validity of his Christian religion by offering an example
of a miracle. I offered an example of a miracle in the Muslim world.
I could have also as easily offered an example of miracle that
occurred to a Buddhist, as well as among followers of various other
religions.
Matt
> > Yet, further in your own post, you admit that he did not answer DMX's
> > prayers.
>
> Why should God prolong DMX's mother's life by oh say 200 years?
>
> eh?
You keep using this same argument when anyone asks why they should
believe in god when he doesnt show himself to them in ANY way. Stop it.
Its annoying.
By your reasoning, 'why should god be expected to do ANYTHING at all'.
And if that's the case, why should he expect us to do anything in
return?
Forgive me if Im wrong, but the reason christians are christians is that
they feel that by living the christian lifestyle as dictated by god,
they will be rewarded with heaven. With that, god can expect
worshippers, but the worshippers can also expect heaven in return.
If you expect to go to heaven when your bucket is kicked, then I can
expect to receive undoubtable proof direct from the source that there
even IS a heaven, before I do anything towards going there.
Why should god let YOU, a sinner into heaven? You expect things of him?
How arrogant of you. So what if he promised it. Who are you to question
gods decision? Youre going to burn in hell with the rest of us, assuming
youre right and we dont just come to a sudden futile halt when we die.
Sleep tight.
Matt.
yang hu
> And if your wife, kids, your grandkids, etc... took your car,
> house, your bank account, tried to get you fired from your job,
> committed fraud against you, got married to 20 other spouses,
> told everyone around you that you were a murderer, liar, theif,
> idiot, deranged luney, tried to have you killed, hated you,
> pitied you, felt you were powerless, inept, felt that anything
> to erase you would be the proper thing to consider, and of
> course... told everyone that you now don't exist.
>
> You'd then serve them?
What do you know, a Christian arguing against the book of Job.
Elephant
wonderful happens, it's because God did it. Whenever something ugly or
rotten happens, it's because humans did it of their own FREE WILL. (must
always capitalize this, for some reason)
But you yourself say,
> ... the stuff
> was all over the news when _they_ found her...
Credit where credit's due. I say, credit the people who found her via
their judicious application of sleuthing and FREE WILL, not some
petulant god. If people are solely responsible for their misdeeds, then
they are equally responsible for their triumphs. As above, so below.
And to the extent that it was "fortunate", well, I'd say you can take
your pick of god's will or random chance, and you'll never be able to
demonstrate the difference.
> Big deal, I know different.
You _think_ you know. That's what's different.
> Now you go ahead there guy, laugh it up. It really
> doesn't matter if you believe it or not, but God can
> make stuff happen. Seriously.
Yup, so can Tucan Sam and Count Chocula. I know, cos I saw it on TV!
Seriously.
> The chances were about nil that anyone would find her
> or figure it out.
Who are you to evaluate the chances? The world is full of singly
improbable events. If the chances were really nil, it would not have
happened.
> It's almost certain that you won't believe God had
> anything to do with it and again, it doesn't matter
> if YOU believe it or not.
Yeah, it only matters to the already convinced, the easily persuaded,
and the person who trolls it on a newsgroup.
> God made it all, Jesus died for our sins.
Have fun in cartoonland.
> Proof God described the planet density profile
> BEFORE science did:
> http://www.teleport.com/~salad/4god/density.htm
> (see the 2 graphs, obviously God was right in Genesis)
One man's "obviously" is another man's
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Anson
John P. Boatwright wrote in message <37C0CC...@teleport.com>...
>B. Richardson wrote:
>
>> Ÿalmsmith wrote:
>
>> > The question is whether we wish to serve God, or we
>> > want God to serve us.
>
>
>> If God loves us so much, why does He require that we
>
>> I love my wife and children very much and I would not
>> require them to be submissive to me and/or serve me
>> before I would help them should they need it.
>
>house, your bank account, tried to get you fired from your job,
>committed fraud against you, got married to 20 other spouses,
>told everyone around you that you were a murderer, liar, theif,
>idiot, deranged luney, tried to have you killed, hated you,
>pitied you, felt you were powerless, inept, felt that anything
>to erase you would be the proper thing to consider, and of
>course... told everyone that you now don't exist.
>
>You'd then serve them?
>
>
>Ya right.
So you're trying to say people whose prayers god doesn't answer must do this
to him?
Ya I think ya ahh.
ahos
yang hu <yangh@***uci***.edu.> wrote in message
> John P. Boatwright wrote:
>
> > And if your wife, kids, your grandkids, etc... took your car,
> > house, your bank account, tried to get you fired from your job,
> > committed fraud against you, got married to 20 other spouses,
> > told everyone around you that you were a murderer, liar, theif,
> > idiot, deranged luney, tried to have you killed, hated you,
> > pitied you, felt you were powerless, inept, felt that anything
> > to erase you would be the proper thing to consider, and of
> > course... told everyone that you now don't exist.
> >
> > You'd then serve them?
>
>
>
John P. Boatwright
> Yeah, I get the gist of this. Whenever something improbable yet
> wonderful happens, it's because God did it. Whenever something ugly or
> rotten happens, it's because humans did it of their own FREE WILL. (must
> always capitalize this, for some reason)
The sin of kidnapping was ALWAYS due to a persons choice,
their own FREE WILL to sin.
What part don't you understand?
> But you yourself say,
> > ... the stuff
> > was all over the news when _they_ found her...
>
> Credit where credit's due.
Ya, God helped them find her.
> I say, credit the people who found her via
> their judicious application of sleuthing and
> FREE WILL, not some petulant god. If people are
> solely responsible for their misdeeds, then
> they are equally responsible for their triumphs.
God can bless someone to enable them to take
the time to search, to find the source.
> As above, so below. And to the extent that it
> was "fortunate", well, I'd say you can take
> your pick of god's will or random chance, and
> you'll never be able to demonstrate the difference.
I already said that, to an atheist it's just random
chance, something to laugh about.
Yep, and only a few months prior to the Feds saying
they had a lead, some serious prayer occurred. And
that just tweeks atheists to no end. They think
they're right in rejecting God over him helping out
YET... they ALSO reject God when he doesn't help.
Atheists can't make up their mind.
You either want God to help or you don't.
Which is it?
> > Big deal, I know different.
> You _think_ you know. That's what's different.
I seriously prayed prior to the lead, that tells
me the prayer was answered. It's the basic senerio,
you pray, God sometimes answers the prayer.
God does have FREE WILL, he does not have to
answer every prayer, he is not your slave, he
is your creator.
> > Now you go ahead there guy, laugh it up. It really
> > doesn't matter if you believe it or not, but God can
> > make stuff happen. Seriously.
> Yup, so can Tucan Sam and Count Chocula. I know,
> cos I saw it on TV! Seriously.
And from this, you pray to Count Chocula?
> > The chances were about nil that anyone would find her
> > or figure it out.
> Who are you to evaluate the chances? The world is full
> of singly improbable events. If the chances were really
> nil, it would not have happened.
Anything is possible with God.
> > It's almost certain that you won't believe God had
> > anything to do with it and again, it doesn't matter
> > if YOU believe it or not.
> Yeah, it only matters to the already convinced, the
> easily persuaded, and the person who trolls it on a
> newsgroup.
The atheist posted the question:
"Have you ever prayed to God and
had the prayer answered?".
The answer was yes, the prayer was answered in a fairly
big way, yet there's no evidence to confirm such prayer, no
evidence to confirm God having done it. Just one
person saying it happened (since if I don't say it, I'd
be a LIAR in denying God having answered said prayer).
> > God made it all, Jesus died for our sins.
> Have fun in cartoonland.
There's more than enough proof for God being there.
They just AGAIN showed multiple hourglass formations,
hourglasses within hourglasses. See CNN's article:
http://cnn.com/TECH/space/9908/25/hubble.hourglass/
Yep, that "firmament" RING just keeps on building up
and exploding out.
Same old, same old.
You guys were told a couple years ago, you just don't listen.
God was right all along.
> > Proof God described the planet density profile
> > BEFORE science did:
> > http://www.teleport.com/~salad/4god/density.htm
> > (see the 2 graphs, obviously God was right in Genesis)
>
> One man's "obviously" is another man's
> HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
See the MULTIPLE hourglass formations.
Face it, God was right all along.
Christo Fogelberg
explanation of religous belief, specifically the missionary style religions.
That is, that the religious believe they believe, some more strongly than others.
But at the heart of the conciousness is the little germ of doubt about their belief
of belief, which motivates them to persuade others of their beleifs, because if
they can persuade someone else they are right then maybe they are as well...
WoN ereH wrote:
> To those religious folk who keep telling us what they believe as if they have
> some inside knowledge to the ultimate reality, it sounds as if you are trying
> to convince yourself more than you are trying to convince us. Because deep
> down, there's a part of you that yearns to break free of your brainwashing,
> that knows that religion is just (some of ) human's way of coping with the fear
> of the unknown. Using the supernatural to explain the natural is like trying to
> eat with your feet. I suppose it will work, but why not just use your hands?
>
> Debra
--
Christo Fogelberg, Acolyte of the EAC* and Atheist #1628 (of 9;)
All hail the Invisible Pink Unicorn!
--
"All empires fall, you just have to know where to push."
--
* EAC: Evil Atheist Conspiracy
Togra
"John P. Boatwright" wrote:
> Elephant wrote:
>
> > Yeah, I get the gist of this. Whenever something improbable yet
> > wonderful happens, it's because God did it. Whenever something ugly or
> > rotten happens, it's because humans did it of their own FREE WILL. (must
> > always capitalize this, for some reason)
>
> The sin of kidnapping was ALWAYS due to a persons choice,
> their own FREE WILL to sin.
And charities were all made by God?
> What part don't you understand?
What part do you understand???
>
> > But you yourself say,
>
> > > ... the stuff
> > > was all over the news when _they_ found her...
> >
> > Credit where credit's due.
>
> Ya, God helped them find her.
How do you know? That is like me saying 'I can't find my keys. Oh, PLEASE Mr.
Twinklegod help me find my keys. Oh! here they are. Thankyou Twinklegod for my
keys back. Now I know for certain you exist!!!'
> > I say, credit the people who found her via
> > their judicious application of sleuthing and
> > FREE WILL, not some petulant god. If people are
> > solely responsible for their misdeeds, then
> > they are equally responsible for their triumphs.
>
> God can bless someone to enable them to take
> the time to search, to find the source.
So can Twinklegod!
> > As above, so below. And to the extent that it
> > was "fortunate", well, I'd say you can take
> > your pick of god's will or random chance, and
> > you'll never be able to demonstrate the difference.
>
> I already said that, to an atheist it's just random
> chance, something to laugh about.
>
> Yep, and only a few months prior to the Feds saying
> they had a lead, some serious prayer occurred. And
> that just tweeks atheists to no end. They think
> they're right in rejecting God over him helping out
> YET... they ALSO reject God when he doesn't help.
>
God didn't help out and never will. God WANTS us to suffer. That is why he
made the serpent; made Adam and Eve suseptible to temptation and planted the
damn tree right there in the middle of the garden ready. He knew all along
that they were going to pick the fruit and then he punishes them and us still
today for 'their' mistake. Christians spend half the time praising him and say
that you utterly can't understand how you can not doggedly blindly accept his
existance.
>
> Atheists can't make up their mind.
>
> You either want God to help or you don't.
>
> Which is it?
>
As I said before, god doesn't want to help and he didn't.help in the search
anymore than shotguns help to stop people starving to death in Africa.
>
> > > Big deal, I know different.
>
> > You _think_ you know. That's what's different.
>
> I seriously prayed prior to the lead, that tells
> me the prayer was answered. It's the basic senerio,
> you pray, God sometimes answers the prayer.
>
> God does have FREE WILL, he does not have to
> answer every prayer, he is not your slave, he
> is your creator.
So if you got sick and preyed then if you got well again its god's work and if
you died from it that is because god is your creator and not your slave. He
therefore has no obligation to help you in anyway.
> > > Now you go ahead there guy, laugh it up. It really
> > > doesn't matter if you believe it or not, but God can
> > > make stuff happen. Seriously.
>
> > Yup, so can Tucan Sam and Count Chocula. I know,
> > cos I saw it on TV! Seriously.
>
> And from this, you pray to Count Chocula?
>
Don't insult Count Chocula!!! I preyed to him and look! my prayers were
answered. That is therefore conclusive proof Count Choculahaas power over all.
>
> > > The chances were about nil that anyone would find her
> > > or figure it out.
>
> > Who are you to evaluate the chances? The world is full
> > of singly improbable events. If the chances were really
> > nil, it would not have happened.
>
> Anything is possible with God.
Anything is possible with Count Chocula. What a wonderful guy.
> > > It's almost certain that you won't believe God had
> > > anything to do with it and again, it doesn't matter
> > > if YOU believe it or not.
>
> > Yeah, it only matters to the already convinced, the
> > easily persuaded, and the person who trolls it on a
> > newsgroup.
>
> The atheist posted the question:
>
> "Have you ever prayed to God and
> had the prayer answered?".
>
> The answer was yes, the prayer was answered in a fairly
> big way, yet there's no evidence to confirm such prayer, no
> evidence to confirm God having done it. Just one
> person saying it happened (since if I don't say it, I'd
> be a LIAR in denying God having answered said prayer).
>
Right. The same way Twinklegod answered my prayers.
>
> > > God made it all, Jesus died for our sins.
>
> > Have fun in cartoonland.
>
> There's more than enough proof for God being there.
>
mmm? If there is sooo much proof why are most people not christians?
>
> They just AGAIN showed multiple hourglass formations,
> hourglasses within hourglasses. See CNN's article:
>
> http://cnn.com/TECH/space/9908/25/hubble.hourglass/
>
> Yep, that "firmament" RING just keeps on building up
> and exploding out.
>
> Same old, same old.
>
> You guys were told a couple years ago, you just don't listen.
>
> God was right all along.
Count Chocula was too! You just don't listen.
>
>
> > > Proof God described the planet density profile
> > > BEFORE science did:
> > > http://www.teleport.com/~salad/4god/density.htm
> > > (see the 2 graphs, obviously God was right in Genesis)
> >
> > One man's "obviously" is another man's
> > HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
>
> See the MULTIPLE hourglass formations.
>
> Face it, God was right all along.
Face it... You're WRONG!!!!
Elephant
> "John P. Boatwright" wrote:
>
> > What part don't you understand?
>
> What part do you understand???
He's missing most of it. His god has, apparently, reached into his head and
loosened all the membranes that hold the think-juice in. Probably skipped
breakfast, too.
> > > Credit where credit's due.
> >
> > Ya, God helped them find her.
>
> How do you know? That is like me saying 'I can't find my keys. Oh, PLEASE Mr.
> Twinklegod help me find my keys. Oh! here they are. Thankyou Twinklegod for my
> keys back. Now I know for certain you exist!!!'
Hey, how do I get in touch with your Twinklegod? Sounds pretty handy...most of
the time, I just have to TAKE RESPONSIBILITY FOR MY ACTIONS and FIGURE LIFE OUT
FOR MYSELF. I guess this is where FREE WILL comes in, because if I were really
in tune with Twinklegod, I could just kick back and LET HIM TAKE RESPONSIBILITY
FOR ALL THE STUPID SHIT I PULLED OVER THE COURSE OF MY LIFE. Sounds pretty
useful, but someone with less faith than you or I might suggest that it's a
GIGANTIC COP-OUT. I guess it's my FREE WILL that's keeping me from getting all
snuggly with Twinklegod; now who created FREE WILL anyway, and then gave me too
much of it to be happy? I guess it was that _other_ god I keep hearing about.
Another one of His bright ideas, like the dinosaurs and nuclear warheads. What a
loser, I wouldn't want to be caught dead hanging out with a god like that.
> > God can bless someone to enable them to take
> > the time to search, to find the source.
>
> So can Twinklegod!
This guy sounds better and better all the time. I hope he doesn't have a history
of atrocities like that _other_ god some people are in to.
> God didn't help out and never will. God WANTS us to suffer.
Yup. that about sums it up for God. I remember reading about some guy named Job,
whom God f*cked over on a bet from Satan. Sucks to be him, but even worse for his
relatives and servants: they all died outright, just because of a bet. You could
go so far as to call a god like that a criminal.
> >> > Yup, so can Tucan Sam and Count Chocula. I know,
> > > cos I saw it on TV! Seriously.
> >
> > And from this, you pray to Count Chocula?
> >
> Don't insult Count Chocula!!! I preyed to him and look! my prayers were
> answered. That is therefore conclusive proof Count Choculahaas power over all.
Got that right! I mean, I've seen Count Chocula perform miracles LIVE on TV just
like the other TELEVANGELISTS, except the Count's miracles are more colorful and
you can see them and they taste real good too.
> >
> > > > The chances were about nil that anyone would find her
> > > > or figure it out.
> >
> > > Who are you to evaluate the chances? The world is full
> > > of singly improbable events. If the chances were really
> > > nil, it would not have happened.
> >
> > Anything is possible with God.
>
> Anything is possible with Count Chocula. What a wonderful guy.
[snip actual content]
> ...Twinklegod answered my prayers.
This Twinklegod of yours...I've just got to meet it. Can I send you lots of money
as a "LOVE GIFT"?
> mmm? If there is sooo much proof why are most people not christians?
oooh, now you've done it. You've gone and sent him on a mission to convert the
heathans.
> Count Chocula was too! You just don't listen.
You know, just last week, I prayed real hard to Count Chocula, went to the
kitchen, and looked in the cupboard, and...there it was! A sign from Chocula! A
bag of Costco granola had exploded into an hourglass shape, and rising from the
fragments of rolled oats, pure and clear, a box of the finest Chocula Cereal. Now
there's someone with some REAL VITAMIN-FORTIFIED POWER! Part of this NUTRITIOUS
BREAKFAST, too. Let's see Twinklegod top that!
Elephant
> Elephant wrote:
>
> > Yeah, I get the gist of this. Whenever something improbable yet
> > wonderful happens, it's because God did it. Whenever something ugly or
> > rotten happens, it's because humans did it of their own FREE WILL. (must
> > always capitalize this, for some reason)
>
> The sin of kidnapping was ALWAYS due to a persons choice,
> their own FREE WILL to sin.
> What part don't you understand?
The part where you got all this hollow certainty.
> > > ... the stuff
> > > was all over the news when _they_ found her...
> >
> > Credit where credit's due.
>
> Ya, God helped them find her.
So you say, so you say.
> > I say, credit the people who found her via
> > their judicious application of sleuthing and
> > FREE WILL, not some petulant god. If people are
> > solely responsible for their misdeeds, then
> > they are equally responsible for their triumphs.
>
> God can bless someone to enable them to take
> the time to search, to find the source.
God can also curse people to make them slaves. Or is that part of the Bible
you prefer to ignore?
> > As above, so below. And to the extent that it
> > was "fortunate", well, I'd say you can take
> > your pick of god's will or random chance, and
> > you'll never be able to demonstrate the difference.
>
> I already said that, to an atheist it's just random
> chance, something to laugh about.
And to a fundie, it's just that God guy again, something to pray about.
> Yep, and only a few months prior to the Feds saying
> they had a lead, some serious prayer occurred.
I'm sure some serious detective work was involved as well.
> And
> that just tweeks atheists to no end. They think
> they're right in rejecting God over him helping out
> YET... they ALSO reject God when he doesn't help.
What part of CONSISTANCY don't you understand?
> Atheists can't make up their mind.
Atheists have made up their minds. Agnostics leave some room for doubt. But
Tucan Sam and Count Chocula won't stand for your silly bullshit forever! get
on the right track now, or prepare to suffer for an eternity in GRANOLA CITY!
with NO MILK!
Sounds pretty scary, huh?
> You either want God to help or you don't.
> Which is it?
For someone who sees "obviously" in a bizarre interpretation of Genesis,
you're awfully slow on the uptake here, aren't you? If I don't believe in
God, how can I want Him to help? Duh.
> > > Big deal, I know different.
>
> > You _think_ you know. That's what's different.
>
> I seriously prayed prior to the lead, that tells
> me the prayer was answered. It's the basic senerio,
> you pray, God sometimes answers the prayer.
Yup. You play the slots, sometimes you win, sometimes you don't. Put your
faith in prayer, brother, so the casino can take all your money.
> God does have FREE WILL, he does not have to
> answer every prayer, he is not your slave, he
> is your creator.
Why do we always have to capitalize FREE WILL? Does it get you off or
something, to type a phrase that you probably can't even distinguish from a
deterministic system? Do you really know you have FREE WILL? Or are you just
DETERMINED TO THINK AND ACT LIKE YOU DO?
> > > Now you go ahead there guy, laugh it up. It really
> > > doesn't matter if you believe it or not, but God can
> > > make stuff happen. Seriously.
>
> > Yup, so can Tucan Sam and Count Chocula. I know,
> > cos I saw it on TV! Seriously.
>
> And from this, you pray to Count Chocula?
Yup, and you'd better do it too, I saw it on TV so it must be true. This guy
is a miracle worker, but if you don't wake up and see it, you'll be led astray
by the evil Frankenberry, and eventually end up in a BIG BOWL OF GRANOLA. No
rejoicing there, just you wait and see!
> > > The chances were about nil that anyone would find her
> > > or figure it out.
>
> > Who are you to evaluate the chances? The world is full
> > of singly improbable events. If the chances were really
> > nil, it would not have happened.
>
> Anything is possible with God.
Oh? including that the chances for location were non-nil, or maybe even really
good? Or maybe it's a uniquely unmeasurable quantum event, such that it
either is or isn't the case that the child is found? Just where are you
getting your probability analysis, to say that some things are nil, others
nearly nil, others low, etc? Are these the same sources that say the
probability of your god existing is about 100%?
> > > It's almost certain that you won't believe God had
> > > anything to do with it and again, it doesn't matter
> > > if YOU believe it or not.
>
> > Yeah, it only matters to the already convinced, the
> > easily persuaded, and the person who trolls it on a
> > newsgroup.
>
> The atheist posted the question:
>
> "Have you ever prayed to God and
> had the prayer answered?".
If it really didn't matter, why reply? Actually, I can tell you, from your
world view it matters (or should matter) quite a bit. If you can convince an
atheist to be a jesus dude like you, that's one less soul going to your
granola pit -- oh wait, you call it something else. Never mind. Still, it is
duplicitous to claim that it doesn't matter if any of us believe it. It's
just such a weak example that you want to protect your own arrogant faith from
the ridicule it so richly deserves. Saying it doesn't matter is a sign of
insecurity on your part, unless I misinterpret you.
> The answer was yes, the prayer was answered in a fairly
> big way, yet there's no evidence to confirm such prayer, no
> evidence to confirm God having done it.
So you like to believe this because it feels good, but you have no evidence,
no confirmation, nothing. How's the weather in cartoonland today?
> Just one
> person saying it happened (since if I don't say it, I'd
> be a LIAR in denying God having answered said prayer).
So, now you can be a liar for NOT saying something foolish? I mean, if you
don't have any evidence that anyone else can appreciate, why is it lying for
you not to come forth at a given instant with your great allegation?
> > > God made it all, Jesus died for our sins.
>
> > Have fun in cartoonland.
>
> There's more than enough proof for God being there.
Proof without evidence? What sort of proof is that? Look, if I drop a rock
off a roof and pray for it to hit the ground, is it evidence of a divine,
personally-involved creator-therapist when it actually does hit the ground?
You would apparently say it does. Your kind of proof explains absolutely
everything, and is absolutely worthless at the same time. (No doubt you would
call it "priceless"...)
> They just AGAIN showed multiple hourglass formations,
> hourglasses within hourglasses. See CNN's article:
>
> http://cnn.com/TECH/space/9908/25/hubble.hourglass/
>
> Yep, that "firmament" RING just keeps on building up
> and exploding out.
That "horseshit" PILE gets thicker and thicker, doesn't it? IIRC, the crab
nebula is the result of a couple of former spiral galaxies slamming together
and unleashing all kinds of wacky destructive forces in the process. The
hourglass you reference isn't some "divine act of creation", it's dying stars
gobbling each other up! Really takes the "firm" out of "firmament", if you
ask me.
> Same old, same old.
How old now? Feel free to be specific. 6000 years? 10000 years? Let me
check my watch.
> You guys were told a couple years ago, you just don't listen.
We were told, but it sounded like horseshit then, and it sounds like horseshit
now. At least it's consistant horseshit.
> God was right all along.
By your definition, He'd have to be.
> > > Proof God described the planet density profile
> > > BEFORE science did:
> > > http://www.teleport.com/~salad/4god/density.htm
> > > (see the 2 graphs, obviously God was right in Genesis)
> >
> > One man's "obviously" is another man's
> > HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
>
> See the MULTIPLE hourglass formations.
Se the MULTIPLE HA formations.
> Face it, God was right all along.
You're silly.
Steve H
>
[snips]
> I asked God to do something about it, I couldn't
> imagine knowing someone that had their kid kidnapped.
> Being how a number of years had passed with no
> leads, I decided it was time to try praying for
> some sort of resolution in the matter.
>
> It was weird, only a few months before the friend
> mentioned they'd gotten a lead, there I was asking
> God to help.
>
God and Boatwright wait 8 years before deciding to think about doing
something.
Finally, Boatwright Prays and then....
God waits another few months...
.. and then unites either the neighbor
(or one of the many other people who have been tirelessly searching
for leads) with a lead. Of course these people
deserve none of the credit as it was all down to Boaty and God.
Why did god wait so long? Perhaps other people, more righteous than
Boatwright
had been praying for the girl to stay kidnapped. The ones who had been
praying for her to be found dead were probably disapointed this time
but they shouldn't complain because they usually win.
It seems to me that the best way to get your prayers answered is to pray
for
what is going to happen anyway.
Pray for what god wants and God will deliver. Some ideas:
Famine in some part of Africa next year.
Earthquake to kill thousands of people in some earthquake-prone
region
Some sort of dispute between India and Pakistan.
More crappy storylines in EastEnders.
Steve.
PS: Boaty. Please insert 'Spam.' into Email address before replying.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
"Chrisianity's such a weird religion.
The image you're brought up with is that
eternal suffering awaits anyone who
questions God's infinite love." :- Bill Hicks
Y
>
> < all crap cut!>
>
Athiests live a life of trying to prove to themselves
the non-existence of God. If they were true to
themselves - God's reality would be clear to them.
Foolish is the man who voices his opinion - that God does
not exist, using the most tempest of words, when all
of eternity is at stake.
Better to remain silent and pray that you die with the
truth.
Greg Shelley
Y wrote:
>
>
> Athiests live a life of trying to prove to themselves
> the non-existence of God. If they were true to
> themselves - God's reality would be clear to them.
>
Pascal's wager variant snipped ( pretty strange variant though)
I don't need to prove to myself the non existance of God anymore than
you need to prove to yourself the non existance of colonies of yellow
goblins living in caves under the surface of Pluto. The lack of
evidence for both is similar, and if you wanted I could give you
quotes that support the yellow goblins theory in the same way that
bible quotes support God.
Greg
John Quinley
Scott Lowther wrote in message <37BE5F...@ix.netcom.com>...
>Evan Thompson wrote:
>>
>> In article <37BE38...@teleport.com>, sa...@teleport.com wrote:
>>
>> > I have friend that I've known for about 12 years,
>> > his daughter got kidnapped about 8 years ago and
>> > there was no evidence, no leads, just a missing kid.
>> >
>> > So what happened?
>> >
>> > I asked God to do something about it, I couldn't
>> > imagine knowing someone that had their kid kidnapped.
>> > Being how a number of years had passed with no
>> > leads, I decided it was time to try praying for
>> > some sort of resolution in the matter.
>> >
>> > It was weird, only a few months before the friend
>> > mentioned they'd gotten a lead, there I was asking
>> > God to help.
This anecdote would have been a lot more convincing if, after you prayed,
the girl magically popped by your side out of thin air. That would have been
something that God could do that we can't do. I guess you guys just don't
have high expectations about your god's abilities.
John Quinley
B. Richardson
> Yep, and only a few months prior to the Feds saying
> they had a lead, some serious prayer occurred.
>
> I seriously prayed prior to the lead, that tells
> me the prayer was answered. It's the basic senerio,
> you pray, God sometimes answers the prayer.
So the key here is "serious prayer"?
How does this differ from non-serious prayer? When you normally pray to God
do you crack wise and slap him on his figurative back with loud laughter, but
when a kidnapping occurs, things get serious all of a sudden? Does God only
listen to serious prayer and ignore all others?
B. Richardson
> There's more than enough proof for God being there.
>
> They just AGAIN showed multiple hourglass formations,
> hourglasses within hourglasses. See CNN's article:
>
> http://cnn.com/TECH/space/9908/25/hubble.hourglass/
>
> Yep, that "firmament" RING just keeps on building up
> and exploding out.
So how do you figure that this hourglass-shaped ring of gas proves the
existence of God? Because it resembles an hourglass? Hell, there's an
hourglass shape on the ass of a certain species of spider too, but it's a
helluva leap in logic to jump from a spider's ass to an omnipotent creator of
everything.
Is it because this gaseous formation happens to resemble the shape of a
man-made object? If so, I guess the stars must be proof of a God too, for no
other reason than that they resemble beach balls.
dotcom
>
> Togra wrote:
> >
> > < all crap cut!>
> >
>
> the non-existence of God. If they were true to
> themselves - God's reality would be clear to them.
Wot's an "athiest"? This "atheist" (note the spelling - if you're going
to insult someone, it helps to spell their name or other descriptive
word correctly), lives a life of trying to keep my dying sister as
healthy and comfortable as I can, rebuilding this old house we live in,
and making fun of uninformed people like you. I *am* true to myself. If
I were to do as you are trying to tell me, I would no longer be true to
myself. hypocrisy = christian?
> Foolish is the man who voices his opinion - that God does
> not exist, using the most tempest of words, when all
> of eternity is at stake.
I see. Voicing an opinion is foolish, but only if that opinion differs
from yours. Obviously, you do not suffer from an atrophied ego, do you.
And isn't there something in that book o'god of yours that says
something along the lines of "Whoever says "thou fool" will go to hell"?
> Better to remain silent and pray that you die with the
> truth.
Better to remain silent and be thought a fool then to speak and remove
all doubt.
dotcom, off...
yes, I am an atheist, and no, I don't want to hear about jeeezus
There is no god worth our worship.
Martin Schlottmann
Brian Westley
>John P. Boatwright wrote:
>> There's more than enough proof for God being there.
>>
>> They just AGAIN showed multiple hourglass formations,
>> hourglasses within hourglasses. See CNN's article:
>>
>> http://cnn.com/TECH/space/9908/25/hubble.hourglass/
>>
>> Yep, that "firmament" RING just keeps on building up
>> and exploding out.
>So how do you figure that this hourglass-shaped ring of gas proves the
>existence of God?
Hell's bells, don't you know? Boathook's god is an
hourglass-shaped ring of gas. That was simple.
---
Merlyn LeRoy
Wayne D. Hoxsie Jr.
>Togra wrote:
>>
>> < all crap cut!>
>>
>
>Athiests live a life of trying to prove to themselves
>the non-existence of God. If they were true to
>themselves - God's reality would be clear to them.
What makes you think that most atheists *haven't* bothered to try and
prove to themselves that god existed. I for one have wasted over 30
years of my life believing in the Judeo-Christian god. When the "rubber
hit the road," he didn't cut it for me. I searched elsewhere only to
determine that every religious myth was equally without merit. The only
logical conclusion at that point was atheism.
You need only ask yourself why it is that you reject all other religious
myths, then you will know why we reject yours.
--
Wayne D. Hoxsie Jr. KG9ME | Small wheel turn by the fire and rod,
postm...@hoxnet.com | Big wheel turn by the grace of God,
http://www.hoxnet.com | Every time that wheel turn 'round,
PGP Key ID 138BCEE1 | Bound to cover just a little more ground.
Andrew A. Skolnick
> God made it all, Jesus died for our sins.
Jesus didn't have to die for anyone's sins. God
can do anything. If God wanted to, God could forgive all
repentant humans of their sins without requiring the
innocent Jesus to be tortured and killed in a terribly
cruel way.
God, who can do anything, could forgive the sins of
repenters without requiring the blood of an innocent to be
shed -- unless of course God WANTED innocent blood to be
shed.
You say that God required the sacrifice of Jesus for
humans to be forgiven. If that's so, then the blood of
Jesus on on God's hands as much as it's on the hands of
the people who crucified him.
-- Andrew Skolnick
http://nasw.org/users/ASkolnick