Re: [fellows] Engineering Ethics - Order of the Engineer

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Jack Ring

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Mar 26, 2016, 9:27:02 PM3/26/16
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I agree with Derek’s stance on systems engineering vs. engineering of systems. However, I suggest that this confusion need not prevent us from formulating a Standard of Care for the practitioners of SE, regardless of the details of their field of discourse.

We should not confuse a Standard of Care with the Code of Ethics. For instance, consider the meaningfuflness of the current INCOSE Code of Ethics;
http://www.incose.org/about/leadershiporganization/codeofethics
 
A Standard of Care states the key metrics for the SE activity in a way that makes them a) measurable or b) at least estimated along with probability of error. The metrics need not address the kind of system being SE’d, only the key attributes of the sociotechnical system that accomplishes SE. 
The metrics might include the principles by which the participants act and interact a) with one another, b) with acquirers and c) with suppliers to cause inputs and outputs that are Fit For Purpose. 
We can do this.
Jack

On Mar 21, 2016, at 3:40 AM, D K Hitchins <profhi...@mac.com> wrote:

I find myself in something of a quandary over the issue of ethics vis-a-vis INCOSE. Please let me explain:

  • First, many of us are engineers, or, like myself, chartered engineers who operate under the auspices of (in my case) the Engineering Council, and in line with the Academy of Engineering, which is also chartered, and which publishes engineering ethics - see http://www.raeng.org.uk/policy/engineering-ethics/ethics#statement. Moreover, I am a fellow if the Institution of Engineering and Technology (formerly the IEE), which is also chartered, and which also concerns itself with engineering ethics, which it generally takes from the Academy, with additions. Such chartered Institutions are entitled to accredit university degree courses in their respective disciplines. Such courses invariably involve the teaching of ethics.
    • If, as many insist, INCOSE is concerned with engineering, then should not its engineering members already be qualified engineers, or engineers in training, and hence already ethically directed by their respective institutions? Should I forego the ethical principles of the IET, for instance, which “doing work” under the INCOSE banner - in favour of INCOSE engineering ethics? Or is it more the case that any actual work as an engineer will always be done under the banner of my parent, chartered UK Institution
  • Second, is INCOSE a 'systems engineering' council? Or, is it, de facto, a Council of Engineering of Systems–in deed, if not in name. It would surely be unethical for INCOSE to operate under a false banner. One things is certain – systems engineering and engineering-of-systems are not the same thing: they are, indeed, quite different. So, before we start getting involved in engineering ethics, would it not be a good idea to sort out what INCOSE is about? 
    • .. and for those who think INCOSE is about engineering, consider that INCOSE - which seems unwilling to define either “system” or “systems engineering” – is concerned with systems of systems (undefined), medical systems, health systems, legal systems, service systems, enterprises, organizations, weapon systems, emergency systems, political systems, training systems, transport systems, infrastructure systems, logistics systems, etc., etc., etc. For none of which would engineering ethics be relevant, or really apply, except in part, never in whole.

  • F’rinstance, our current President is, by training–and, like many excellent systems engineers–a physicist, not an engineer.  His experience is mainly in defence and security, applying systems engineering at all levels from enterprise, capability, systems of systems, services, platforms and individual systems. In his corporate role he is head of information systems engineering. Would engineering ethics be appropriate to him, and to the many like him with backgrounds, experience and training that have not been in engineering, but which are, nonetheless are highly appropriate to systems engineering.

And for those who still don’t know what a system is, or what systems engineering is, an old dictionary would suggest as follows:
“System: a complex organized whole, a body of material or immaterial things”
“Systems engineering: the art and science of creating viable systems.”

Works for me.

Derek Hitchins

<derek hitchins.vcf>

On 20 Mar 2016, at 18:58, jac...@burnhamsystems.net wrote:

Yes, I think we dropped the ball on this subject, I would very much like to see it continue.  At the last Fellows meeting in Torrance we agreed that the idea of developing Position Papers would be a good idea.  Perhaps this would be a good position paper.  There was not much discussion on the subject of position papers except to say that the Fellows would develop a paper on any subject of importance and then send it on to the Board for approval. I have only two thoughts on this subject of an ethics paper:
 
First, I agree with a previous suggestion by Jack that this topic should pertain to "system managers" rather than just engineers. System managers could include, for example, CEOs who usually have the last word on system deployment. 
 
Secondly, I suggest that the paper address the subject of cognitive bias, which is very rarely mentioned in the literature on risk analysis and decision making.  In my studies I have concluded that cognitive bias has very often been the root cause of major disasters due to bad decisions by system managers.  I would put the Challenger disaster at the top of the list.  I am attaching an article from the magazine New Scientist on this subject.  As I said in a previous discussion, cognitive biases are not necessarily unethical decisions, they are opinions which by definition are not supported by the facts.
 
Since this paper would be a consensus paper by the Fellows, we would have to agree on what we mean by consensus. 
 
I would hope that this paper would be international in scope and not just pertain to the US. 
 
Cheers,
 
Scott
 
 
 

Scott Jackson
INCOSE Fellow
Principal Engineer
Burnham Systems Consulting
ORCID 0000-0003-3386-4561
 
 
-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: [fellows] Engineering Ethics - Order of the Engineer
From: Jack Ring <jri...@gmail.com>
Date: Sun, March 20, 2016 9:48 am
To: Richard Wray <rw...@neo.rr.com>
Cc: Hillary Sillitto <hillary....@blueyonder.co.uk>, Keith Hipel
<kwh...@uwaterloo.ca>, in...@incose.org, Gary Roedler
<garry.j...@lmco.com>, Fellows <fel...@incose.org>, INCOSE TLT
Reflector <t...@incose.org>, paul.schr...@incose.org

I have lost track. Has this thread died?
I think this is another opportunity to assert that there is more to SE than engineering. 
Accordingly, an INCOSE Standard of Care and emblem or badge should consistent with Order of Engineer and Order of the Ring, etc. but not a subset.
Jack
On Mar 4, 2016, at 11:25 AM, Richard Wray <rw...@neo.rr.com> wrote:

Hillary,
 
I thought about the US vs International flavor of INCOSE, but we need more info on the Order of the Engineer before we can determine if that is a problem. What I have seen so far, does not seem to preclude INCOSE from awarding an Iron Ring to non-US members. If INCOSE can award an Iron Ring at all, which may not be possible, it would seem likely we could award it to any INCOSE member, regardless of nationality. 
 
The Canadian version is restricted to only Canadian engineers. I have not seen anything yet that restricts the Order of the Ring to only US engineers. 
 
I agree that the range of concerns for us may be  broader that the Order of the Ring. However, that would be another subject to discuss with the Order of the Ring group.
 
Dick
 
From: Hillary Sillitto [mailto:hillary....@blueyonder.co.uk] 
Sent: Friday, March 04, 2016 1:02 PM
To: Richard Wray
Cc: Keith Hipel; in...@incose.org; Roedler, Garry J; INCOSE Fellows Reflector; INCOSE TLT Reflector; paul.schr...@incose.org
Subject: Re: [fellows] Engineering Ethics - Order of the Engineer
 
Richard
 
I think this is a very interesting model we would do well to examine in detail. However, I have two reservations about the proposal as it currently stands.
 
First, the Order of Engineers seems to be a purely national US body, which would potentially give the rest of us an issue, particularly those whose national engineering bodies have their own ethics statements.
 
Second, the oath as it stands pays scant attention to sustainability issues and to protecting our environment. It is no longer ethical to consider that nature's 'wealth' is there for us to do with as we please. I can read concern for sustainability into my interpretation of the vow, but I am sure many would not. I think it should be explicit.
 
Both of these points could be dealt with if INCOSE were to do its own version. However  considerable cultural sensitivity would be required to make sure the form of words and ceremony were culturally acceptable across our whole membership.
 
Best regards
 
Hillary
 
Best regards
 
Hillary

Sent from my iPad

On 4 Mar 2016, at 17:01, Richard Wray <rw...@neo.rr.com> wrote:
While the idea of signing a paper agreeing to be ethical as part of the xSEP process is laudable, it is easy afterwards to forget that you intended to be ethical as time passes. Having an iron ring on your little finger is an obvious and useful reminder that is always in your eyesight. 
 
I think the Fellows for sure, then xSEP and later other INCOSE members should do this Iron Ring process.
 
I recommend that INCOSE identify someone on the BOD or Fellows to take action to find out how INCOSE can get involved in the US Order of the Engineer () and award Iron Rings to INCOSE Engineers. 
 
Dick
 
From: Keith Hipel [mailto:kwh...@uwaterloo.ca] 
Sent: Thursday, March 03, 2016 10:24 AM
To: Richard Wray; in...@incose.org; Roedler, Garry J; INCOSE Fellows Reflector
Cc: INCOSE TLT Reflector; gj...@yahoo.com @mailchannels.net; paul.schr...@incose.org
Subject: RE: [fellows] Engineering Ethics - Order of the Engineer
 
Hi Dick and Colleagues,
 
A few months before graduation, all of the engineering students in Canada take part in a ceremony written by Rudyard Kipling entitled "The Calling of an Engineer". It is one of the most memorable rituals in which a Canadian engineer participates during his or her lifetime. Almost all Canadian engineers wear their engineering ring on their small finger of their writing hand for the rest of their lives. It makes them eternally loyal to the Canadian engineering profession to which they have pledged to abide by the highest ethical standards and serve society throughout their professional careers.
 
After the solemn iron ring ceremony, the engineering students take part in celebrations that often last all of the night. This further bonds the students to their chosen profession and with one another. 
 
Consequently, I think that Dick's suggestion of having an INCOSE iron ring ceremony (or  an equivalent type of ceremony that could perhaps take place at each annual meeting) is a well-founded concept. 
 
I hope that this is helpful.
 
With my very best regards to all,
 
Keith 
 
___________________________________________________
 
Keith W. Hipel
 
University Professor
PhD, DrHC, PEng, NAE, FRSC, FCAE, FIEEE, FAWRA, FINCOSE, FASCE, FEIC 
Department of Systems Design Engineering
University of Waterloo, Waterloo, Ontario, Canada N2L 3G1
 
Past President, Academy of Science, Royal Society of Canada
Senior Fellow, Centre for International Governance Innovation
Coordinator, Conflict Analysis Group, University of Waterloo
 
From: Richard Wray [rw...@neo.rr.com]
Sent: March 2, 2016 9:49 PM
To: in...@incose.org; Roedler, Garry J; INCOSE Fellows Reflector
Cc: INCOSE TLT Reflector; =?iso-8859-1?Q?gjr2r=40yahoo.com=A0?=@mailchannels.net; paul.schr...@incose.org
Subject: [fellows] Engineering Ethics - Order of the Engineer
I recently stumbled across an interesting page on Engineering Ethics. This Wikipedia page provides info on “the Order of the Engineer”, which is similar to some of the INCOSE discussions about ethics for system engineers. 
I never heard about this during my active engineering career, but it sounds very interesting. Do any of you know of this?
Maybe INCOSE should look into it? It would be interesting if INCOSE offered a“Engineers/ Iron Ring.”
Dick Wray
Fellow of INCOSE
PS – Please pass this to any interested parties.
This email has been scanned by Netintelligence
http://www.netintelligence.com/email
<New_Scientist_When_things_fall_apart.docx>


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