Fwd: Invitation to review SE & System Definition document

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James Martin

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Jan 18, 2018, 9:22:48 AM1/18/18
to SSWG, Hillary Sillitto
A group of INCOSE Fellows was tasked to improve upon the definition of "system" and "systems engineering". Here is a draft document from their work for your review and comment. Please provide comments by Feb 15th in this Google spreadsheet:

Hillary and his team are presenting their current findings and recommendations to the SSWG on Tuesday morning at IW at 1030 EST. Please come if you can. If you would like to join us remotely, please follow the instructions in the attached file.

Please contact Hillary directly if you have issues with the commenting spreadsheet.
Hillary Sillitto <hillary....@blueyonder.co.uk>

Thanks,

James


---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Dorothy McKinney <dorothy....@me.com>
Date: Wed, Jan 17, 2018 at 6:46 PM
Subject: Invitation to review Systems Engineering & System Definition document
To: Fellows


Dear INCOSE Fellows (and President and President-elect),

As you probably know, Hillary Sillitto has been leading a small team of INCOSE Fellows to develop a revised definition of “system” and "systems engineering” which should more effectively support INCOSE’s 2025 vision.  This team has now developed a final draft containing the results of their effort.  You are invited to review this draft, and provide any comments you consider appropriate.  Once we have reviewed and addressed your comments (and comments which are also being solicited by James Martin from the System Sciences Working Group), we intend to take the next version to the INCOSE Board of Directors and the Corporate Advisory Board.

You may post your comments at:


You should find the document in the pdf file attached to this email.  If you have any questions or issues about accessing this document or the Google spreadsheet in which we are collecting comments, please let Hillary or me know.

Thanks much,
Dorothy
Dorothy McKinney


Definitions-Sys+SE_draft_20180117_V1_1.pdf
SSWG webinar Tue Jan 23.pdf

ohkami

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Jan 19, 2018, 1:49:34 PM1/19/18
to James Martin, syss...@googlegroups.com

Dear James and friends,

 

While I was trying to review the document, I happened to find the following definitions of ‘System’ among many.

 

A: A complete exhibition of essential facts arranged in rational dependence or related by some common law, principle, or end

 

B: A collection of inter-related parts that, by virtue of the relationships between them, does things its parts cannot do their own

 

My question as non-native: What is essential difference between A and B?

 

I would appreciate as many responses as possible.

 

Best regards

+++++

Yoshiaki ‘Yoshi’ Ohkami, Fellow & ESEP, INCOSE

Professor Emeritus, Tokyo Institute of Technology

Executive Advisor for Keio Instiute of System

Design and Management

4-1-1 Hiyoshi, Kohoku-ku, Yokohama, Japan

Phone: +81 45 564 2480

+++++

 

 

Wolt Fabrycky

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Jan 19, 2018, 3:37:43 PM1/19/18
to syss...@googlegroups.com, James Martin
Yoshi, et al

A is more generic, hardly useful in engineering (the human-made), whereas B is an inspiration to endeavors regarding the latter.

Wolt

- - - -

Sent from my iPhone
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ohkami

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Jan 19, 2018, 8:50:43 PM1/19/18
to syss...@googlegroups.com, James Martin, t.t...@sdm.keio.ac.jp

Thanks, Wolt, for your rapid response.

 

Yoshi

Aleksandar Malečić

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Jan 20, 2018, 1:35:28 PM1/20/18
to syss...@googlegroups.com
The chosen A and B definitions could be to some degree understood as a difference between systems thinking/science/theory and cybernetics respectively. Something can be useful for engineering as in paying an engineer's bills or doing something that makes sense in the long run and across a large scale. Also, there is hardly any paradigm hidden within the definition B. Try to use the definition B in order to make any assumption about computability, artificial intelligence, sustainability, having a job that makes sense...

Aleksandar

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ohkami

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Jan 20, 2018, 3:01:51 PM1/20/18
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Thanks, Aleksander, for your comments and recommendation. I will write additional article to explain about the reason why I selected these two defintitions.

 

Yoshi

 

From: syss...@googlegroups.com [mailto:syss...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Aleksandar Male?i?
Sent: Sunday, January 21, 2018 3:35 AM
To: syss...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [SysSciWG] Fwd: Invitation to review SE & System Definition document

 

The chosen A and B definitions could be to some degree understood as a difference between systems thinking/science/theory and cybernetics respectively. Something can be useful for engineering as in paying an engineer's bills or doing something that makes sense in the long run and across a large scale. Also, there is hardly any paradigm hidden within the definition B. Try to use the definition B in order to make any assumption about computability, artificial intelligence, sustainability, having a job that makes sense...

Aleksandar

 

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