The overall purpose of the ISSS is to promote the development of conceptual frameworks based on general system theory, as well as their implementation in practice. It further seeks to encourage research and facilitate communication between and among scientists and professionals from various disciplines and professions at local, regional, national, and international levels."- http://isss.org/world/administration/bylawsIs that article by Rousseau et al. (and other articles from the same publication) and Ken Lloyd's comment facilitating communication between and among scientists and professionals from various disciplines and professions at local, regional, national, and international levels?AleksandarOn Sat, Sep 22, 2018 at 3:07 AM Ken Lloyd <kall...@gmail.com> wrote:James,
In re: Rousseau’s Systemic Semantics (Systemic Semantics: A Systems Approach to Building Ontologies and Concept Maps) in developing an ontology for systems engineering and science, there has been a historical problem inherent in over-reliance on the “systems thinking” approach. This problem, identified by Rousseau’s “confusion” characterization relates to vast differences between an individual “authority” as an expert and the dispersion of concepts in a groups > 7 (i.e. the INCOSE Fellows attempts at the definition of a system). We found similar dispersion in working with a BFO implementation WRT experts.
One promising solution may be to apply OpenAI Five (or something similar, such as ES-HyperNEAT) in NLP to relate and refine concepts in linguistic terms (the conceptual encoding is not directly language driven, but offers indirect representations to languages). The general strategy is to use competitive co-evolution between the machine’s knowledge base (encoded as a meta-neural network that generates other neural networks in various contexts) and the diverse human knowledge bases. The result can be empirically compared with alternative strategies. Furthermore, a meta-ontology may be developed. This strategy is well known and (for AI and NLP at least) reasonably mature. For example, see https://blog.openai.com/openai-five/ in relation to the game Dota.
K A Lloyd
From: syss...@googlegroups.com [mailto:syss...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of James Martin
Sent: Friday, September 21, 2018 12:41 PM
To: SSWG <syss...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: [SysSciWG] Fwd: Systems, Volume 6, Issue 3 (September 2018) Released
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Jack,
It has taken me months to get around to answering this question – my very happy retirement keeps getting in the way.
Many physical, cognitive, linguistic, computational and informational scientists (systems, all) around the world – esp. China, France, the UK and the US – have realized that “mathematical” structures can encode concepts in contexts. These can be extraordinarily complex concepts. By mathematical, I refer to constructs identified by W.W. Sawyer in Prelude to Mathematics (ca. 1955): “Mathematics is the science and study of all possible patterns”, but not specifically as numerical or algebraic. These structures resemble artificial neural networks (ANNs), and “genetic artificial networks” (i.e CPPNs) that can generate ANNs. One of the early problems in studying the mathematical properties of ANNs was having a mathematical language rigorous and robust enough to 1) describe their functioning, and 2) to illustrate an understanding the how and why of their functioning. Of course, that mathematical language had to be abstract enough to describe functioning all along the homological chain of complexes from abstraction down to any particular physical realization – including any and all of the representational natural languages.
In this regard, I offer a snapshot overview of the solution from John Baez (UC) and Mike Stay (Google), Physics, Topology, Logic, and Computation – A Rosetta Stone.
To avoid the error of “The definition of <insert term here> is whatever I (or we) define that term to be” due to some assumption of the mantle of authority, the usual methods deal with convergence toward an attractor that is coherently consistent with forward and opposite (wrongly called Inverse) models by Inverse Theory ala Tarantola.
A Framework is the adaptive alignment that results from convergence of conceptual patterns (when, indeed it converges), even when its behavior is “strange”.
I think that due to the distances from the 20th Century Paradigms of Science, what I have identified will not make any sense to many, today. Already valid, it is evident that it will be found to be “true” in the near future.
Ken Lloyd
Jack,
This is at the heart of most problems “system”. I characterize (note: not define) a system as anything with an aggregation of two or more coupled* (i.e. component) objects whose coupling (i.e. bonding, etc.) allows communication (*in the broadest sense of the word – the exchange of matter, energy, information or entropy), and due to that coupling the whole at least partially subsumes the identities of the components, creating a new entity. Sine qua on.
This means that an atom is a natural system consisting of aggregations of protons, neutrons and electrons where the different couplings create various different elements, and so on for different molecules. Example, the difference between iron oxide and table salt.
In this regard, there are (equally valid) natural systems, human devised systems, social systems, political, legal, economic systems, enterprise systems mathematical systems of equations and computer hardware and software systems – which means that it is possible that everything, down to the abstract objects of the **standard model is a system. Notice, however, that contrary to Stafford Beer, the purpose of any system is not inherent within the system, but purpose is imposed on systems by an external intelligence or agency that leverages its properties for purposes at hand.
** https://www.quantumdiaries.org/2014/03/14/the-standard-model-a-beautiful-but-flawed-theory/ This theory is, today, incomplete.
It would seem to me that, too often, SEs only consider man-made systems when their systems of systems are “composed” of natural and somewhat abstract components. Here, the word “composed” is telling WRT my use of Category Theory to indirectly represent all things “system”.
So, it is possible that calling something – anything - a system is a safe bet because it approaches tautology, at some generalization, abstraction or aggregation scale.
Ken
Free will? This is an undecidable proposition (from within the context of our existence). This is why, from both an engineering and scientific point-of-view, we should think in terms of possibilities and probabilities instead of the certainty of universal “laws” (i.e. Agung Budiyono’s concept of system’s imaginability in addition to be-ability) http://cds.cern.ch/record/918999/files/0512235.pdf .
Will Rogers probably correctly stated: “It’s not what we don’t know that gives us problems, it’s what we know that ain’t so.”
From: syss...@googlegroups.com <syss...@googlegroups.com> On Behalf Of Aleksandar Malecic
Sent: Sunday, November 11, 2018 3:33 AM
To: syss...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [SysSciWG] GST conceptual framework development
Did I have free will when I was deciding whether or not to write this? It might be an interesting question or not, but it has only one correct answer. My "story" and perception of reality does differ, but we (for instance) either do or don't live in a computer simulation: https://www.simulation-argument.com/simulation.html. These might be dumb or irrelevant examples to someone, but reality is still the same.
Please name something that is not a system, and let’s proceed from there.
A one dimensional point?
A point is, indeed, an object, however it fails to qualify as a system on two (ahem) points. 1) it is only one object containing no other objects in an aggregation, and 2) alone, it is not obviously coupled with any other objects. Actually, to recognize any point beyond its entity there is a monomorphism called the identity (1object) that references the entity. So whenever you identify ”this” point (an object), you are referencing a system of entities and identities.
Moving beyond considering that exclusive point devoid of context, however, things may get murkier. I apologize for the, now, category-theoretic context in which to consider “a point”. Topologically, if we were to embed that singular point into (/mapsto) into a metric space, we have a different scenario altogether. That point now shares information regarding its “be-able” as a location with and in that space. It also exhibits the potential to inhabit other alternative locations – its imaginability – in other locations in that space (notice we have the rudimentary makings of a system).
Let’s go one small step further. If we were to add (embed or map) another point in that space, at some scale we have a topological neighborhood, or site, that minimally relates those two points.
The concept of “a point” (p), actually a zero-dimensional construct whose singular identity is p^0 = 1 exists as a duality between a category (with no elements in its aggregation) and every possible object that may be realized from that category as points (the duality is that categories are an object, and objects are derived as realization from their categories – more than you really wanted to know). So it depends which aspect of a “point” you are considering – the categorical, or the object – and THAT is an important point. I take that “a one dimensional point” is a point existing at a location on a one dimensional construct – a degree of freedom, a line – which would easily qualify as a system
We see that, minimally, a point exists as an abstract concept and dually as a category and object in a platonic mathematical context. The bi-directional relationship between the abstract concept and its somewhat less abstract, but still abstract platonic realization, does indeed create a system (in this case a “formal” language).
Ken
This investigation of what is not a system is informatively thoughtful, and would have been a useful contrast in the debate that tried to defne what is a system. It addresses the essence of systemness independent of what “I” think qualifies as a system in “my narrow context” of interest at the moment. Thank you Ken.
---------------------------------------------------------------
Rick Dove
Paradigm Shift International, Inc, and
Stevens Institute of Technology
2051 La Lama Rd, HC-81 Box 17
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From: syss...@googlegroups.com <syss...@googlegroups.com> On Behalf Of kall...@gmail.com
Sent: Monday, November 12, 2018 7:45 AM
To: syss...@googlegroups.com
Subject: RE: [SysSciWG] GST conceptual framework development
A point is, indeed, an object, however it fails to qualify as a system on two (ahem) points. 1) it is only one object containing no other objects in an aggregation, and 2) alone, it is not obviously coupled with any other objects. Actually, to recognize any point beyond its entity there is a monomorphism called the identity (1object) that references the entity. So whenever you identify ”this” point (an object), you are referencing a system of entities and identities.
Re: Allows communication vs accomplishes communication is interesting. It is difficult, if not impossible to identify “system-ness” at complete equilibrium, even though the potential for being a system exists.
The term system is an abstraction and representation of structure, behavior and morphism – consisting of two aspects: “be-able” and “imaginable”. I caution that imaginable has nothing to do with human mental ability, but inherent in the objects, structure, behavior and morphism to exhibit states other than it currently exhibits.
Every object (including categories) MUST exist in at least one, but often many more contexts. Curt’s comment is incomplete to a fault. Systems can an do exist in even in any number of dimensions including fractional dimensions. It is a problem of restricted paradigm. See for example search system using Peano or Hilbert patterns.
Steven,
Since the thrust of this discussion is generally in re: systems science and engineering, but not predominantly mathematics or philosophy, I would suggest folks do some research with respect to the fundamental difference between categories (in Category Theory) and sets (in Set Theory). As a foundation for mathematics, one can validly have a “class” of categories “conditioned” (functorially) to represent the more narrowly bounded class of sets.
Again, I caution not to consider categories in the traditional sense of a classification schema such as a hierarchy, taxonomy or ontology (although they may be used to construct these schemata). In this sense, a category only adds or imposes structure on an aggregation of objects.
While an over-simplification, one can, without paradox, have a “category of all categories”. One cannot have a “set of all sets” without such paradox, however. The oversimplification has to do with different levels of abstraction in the existence of categories. Abstraction (BTW quite different from generalization / specification) becomes useful in systems science and engineering precisely because it allows us to use a formalism to model systems – without complete and explicit knowledge of the particulars of that system. The way that works is similar to Bayesian Inference – how new information affects the “prior” as that system becomes “realized”. Since this deals with the rather deep epistemological subjects of modularity and plasticity of concepts, I won’t go there (that is academic to the max), but this is the way artificial neural networks “work” (and perhaps natural, even human minds, too).
Ken Lloyd
Both cases – potential and actual – must be considered when engineering a system. “Ya just never know which path the future will take”.
On Nov 13, 2018, at 20:29, Curt McNamara <cur...@gmail.com> wrote:
Agreed that it is an academic exercise to consider any one "thing" (for example a point) in isolation. It is always in relation to something or part of a set as Ken notes. Either of those add more dimensions to our consideration.If I further channel my inner Bucky: we can create models of systems which may not tested for "closure" i.e. could they enclose a "space".If the model doesn't contain enough "points" (minimum = 4 for a tetrahedron in 3-space) then the model can't have closure and doesn't (entirely) represent the system.Could the model still be "good enough"? Sure, all models are wrong yet all are useful.However :-) if you say the model represents a system yet it doesn't have closure -- by definition the model (of a system) can't be separated from Universe, and therefore is probably a part of a larger system. For example, the model could represent a surface of a system (which does exist in 3D). This could probably be tied to requisite variety ...Curt
On Mon, Nov 12, 2018 at 8:45 AM <kall...@gmail.com> wrote:
A point is, indeed, an object, however it fails to qualify as a system on two (ahem) points. 1) it is only one object containing no other objects in an aggregation, and 2) alone, it is not obviously coupled with any other objects. Actually, to recognize any point beyond its entity there is a monomorphism called the identity (1object) that references the entity. So whenever you identify ”this” point (an object), you are referencing a system of entities and identities.
Moving beyond considering that exclusive point devoid of context, however, things may get murkier. I apologize for the, now, category-theoretic context in which to consider “a point”. Topologically, if we were to embed that singular point into (/mapsto) into a metric space, we have a different scenario altogether. That point now shares information regarding its “be-able” as a location with and in that space. It also exhibits the potential to inhabit other alternative locations – its imaginability – in other locations in that space (notice we have the rudimentary makings of a system).
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