Interesting new kickstarter - Breadboard with Arduino built in

[Richard Sutherland]

Hey Everybody!    

I searched the archives and did not find mention of an interesting project I ran across… hopefully I’m not running afoul of any of the rules by sharing it:  

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/stemtera/stemtera-breadboard-arduino-compatible-built-in-br

I’m looking forward to getting one and reducing the mass of wires running across my breadboards :-)  I might be particularly lazy or OCD, but this seems to be a primary reason for the complexity of my prototypes capping out….. 

Cheers,

-Richard

[Iain Chalmers]

FWIW, I use a pair of bits of ribbon cable with 0.10" mail pins both ends (with the ends broken at the pin7/8 and analog/power discontinuities at the Arduino end), so I can jump all the Arduino pins across onto a breadboard with just the two ribbons connecting. 

It's not a perfect solution, but it deals nicely with a lot of cases.

big

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That's the only way to be sure." - Ellen Ripley

[Richard Sutherland]

That’s actually a really clever idea…. is seems that 1/2 of my prototyping time is just linking whatever MCU I use to the breadboard, and then troubleshooting some connection that I misplaced or has come undone.  The ribbon cables sounds quick and repeatable, which is nice!

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[John Slee]

http://mutable-instruments.net/bbf

I like this concept. A lot. Though potentially full of traps for typical breadboard users because, due to assuming a +/-12V split supply as per usual in synth projects, they don't use the power rails in the conventional way.

The Eagle files are on Github.

I've also made a few variants of my own, eg.

- a 78Lxx/79Lxx regulator+filter caps pair for auxiliary/reference voltages

- banana jacks for connecting the rails to a bench power supply

- MIDI in/out DIN sockets with associated circuitry (ie. just jumper directly to your microcontroller's serial TX/RX pins)

I have a few other ideas I'm working on, too. Assembling the same complex-but-cookie-cutter crap on the breadboard over and over again sucks.

John 

[Paul]

It's good to find out I'm not alone in my disappointment with breadboards, but at after looking at the same time all alternatives don't seem to be a solution for me.

What annoys me about breadboards is connections are so unreliable it's quicker to reassemble everything from scratch after a week of not touching a prototype. Other problem is after I've prototyped it on a breadboard the only way to turn it into a permanent object is to again build same thing from scratch but using different and significantly "slower" materials.

Are there any prototyping boards that'd use code switches instead of wires?

[Matt Callow]

On 10 October 2016 at 16:34, Paul <paul.k...@gmail.com> wrote:

It's good to find out I'm not alone in my disappointment with breadboards, but at after looking at the same time all alternatives don't seem to be a solution for me.

What annoys me about breadboards is connections are so unreliable it's quicker to reassemble everything from scratch after a week of not touching a prototype. Other problem is after I've prototyped it on a breadboard the only way to turn it into a permanent object is to again build same thing from scratch but using different and significantly "slower" materials.

Are there any prototyping boards that'd use code switches instead of wires?

​FPGA ? :)

​

 

[John Slee]

On Monday, 10 October 2016 16:35:00 UTC+11, Paul wrote:

after a week of not touching

If you've got it mostly working and need to leave it for a week and then get frustrated building a permanent version, why not just lay out and order some PCBs at that point, based on what you think should work properly? Then the next step is either

- build it and it works and yayayayayay!, or

- it doesn't work but you can bodge it until it does (this is your "getting frustrated building a permanent version" equivalent) 

Either way, you've got a permanent version of your thing!

Once you get used to the design tooling (whichever software you use) and get your basic trusted part libraries sorted out, it's pretty quick.

There's a gazillion PCB layout tutorials on YouTube

John

[Paul]

Matt, I've actually checked FPGAs for that reason, I think breadboard of the future will be programmable via USB or bluetooth.

There are only three things that seemed to be too hard to do on FPGA:

- how to handle analog signals, h-bridges, etc.

- how to power up / control timing of all the virtual wires - connecting power to some of the peripherals in a wrong order is in general too dangerous

- there's quite a bit of a learning curve involved in replacing breadboard with a FPGA :)

Basically I think it's doable and would be awesome, I just have no idea how to do it.

[Andrew Larkin]

Maybe something like this : http://www.analog.com/en/products/switches-multiplexers/unbuffered-analog-crosspoint-arrays/ad75019.html

Sent from Samsung tablet.

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[kr...@sleepingplanet.com]

this is where i'm at right now.

i make something, painstakingly, on a bread board. 

fix my errors (making the wiring even more messy), sorting out the dodgy jumper leads that don't make a good connection.

i now carry shoe boxes to keep them in, as the journey to and from the space often jogs out a few cables.

eventually i get it working and then i'm faced with:

starting all over again on a protoboard, meaning i have to carefully take each wire of the bread board and replicate it on the protoboard.

or, send for a pcb.

You are quite right that a pcb is the most sensible option, but the design tools have a steep learning curve. I know it's probably not that hard, but i probably only do this twice a year so i struggle to retain the knowledge.

i'm reading these articles with interest at the moment

http://hackaday.com/2016/09/21/creating-a-pcb-in-everything-introduction/

i last used eagle, i found it hard.

a lot of people have told me kicad is like eagle, except it was designed by people have only ever had a gui explained to them through google translate.

i tried fritzing but couldn't work out how to do a few simple things and got frustrated.

i know if i persevere with one i'll eventually get there but because i'm such a beginner it is a steep learning curve.

The other thing, is i pretty much only make one of a thing (one clock, one chicken door, one temperature readout) so getting 10 boards from china seems a waste.

I think i might try these next

http://core-electronics.com.au/adafruit-perma-proto-half-sized-breadboard-pcb-single.html?utm_source=google_shopping&gclid=CjwKEAjw-Oy_BRDg4Iqok57a4kcSJADsuDK1y7fWc_Z_mrB-Ft__VNS-g923ew9girMsswinI-K7vhoC-Avw_wcB

which is like a breadboard but solderable. 

When i was younger i used to use these

http://vinci.org/rlv/rpcm/orion/orion-cpu-board-back.jpg

hard to put through hole components on these though..

 

Kris

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[Matt Callow]

I use a combination of breadboard, stripboard, PCB, various protoboards with point to point wiring. It all depends on the complexity of the circuit.

I use to get stuff called triboard, which was like stripboard, but each strip was only three holes long. This was quite convenient for DIL packages. But now it seems hard to get.

I think i might try these next

http://core-electronics.com.au/adafruit-perma-proto-half-sized-breadboard-pcb-single.html?utm_source=google_shopping&gclid=CjwKEAjw-Oy_BRDg4Iqok57a4kcSJADsuDK1y7fWc_Z_mrB-Ft__VNS-g923ew9girMsswinI-K7vhoC-Avw_wcB

which is like a breadboard but solderable. 

​I looked at these​. They seem quite expensive. I did have a go at designing something similar, (to be made by a china PCB fab) but never finalised it. I'll try to dig it out.

When i was younger i used to use these

http://vinci.org/rlv/rpcm/orion/orion-cpu-board-back.jpg

hard to put through hole components on these though..

Ooh! ​Wire wrap. ​

 

Why ist hough-hole hard to do on this? (Do you mean surface mount?)

At the other end of the scale, I bought some of these:

http://www.silego.com/products/greenpak4.html

But have not yet manged to solder them successfully. (They are in a package about 2mm x 2mm)

Matt

[Kris]

Oooo. Think Nick's using these out making a daughter board For them

Yeah the board is expensive, but it does look high quality.
I'm not sure what you're get back from China or oshpark...

---

From: Matt Callow <matt....@gmail.com>
Sent: 11 October 2016 12:17:41 PM AEDT
To: robodino <sydney-h...@googlegroups.com>

Subject: Re: [RnD] Interesting new kickstarter - Breadboard with Arduino built in

--
Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.

[kr...@sleepingplanet.com]

and in related news:

Don't forget that RnD can have your board made for free with OSH park

$10 Coupons for use at OSHpark!

OSHpark is an online service where you can get PCB's made professionally and sent to you. If you've ever seen a purple PCB, chances are it came from there.

https://oshpark.com/shared_projects

Each Coupon entitles the bearer to have 3 copies of a 2inch by 2inch double sided purple board produced and delivered worldwide for free!

Robodino has 12 of these Coupons to give away!

just ask any of the board members if you want a coupon (members only). 

--

[Matt Callow]

On 11 October 2016 at 12:31, Kris <kr...@sleepingplanet.com> wrote:

Oooo. Think Nick's using these out making a daughter board For them

​Yes he was. My approach was to make a DIL breakout board for them and then a programming adapter. I thought that would be simple. Nick's design was more sophisticated I think.

​

 

Yeah the board is expensive, but it does look high quality.
I'm not sure what you're get back from China or oshpark...

---

From: Matt Callow <matt....@gmail.com>
Sent: 11 October 2016 12:17:41 PM AEDT

To: robodino <sydney-hackspace@googlegroups.com>

Subject: Re: [RnD] Interesting new kickstarter - Breadboard with Arduino built in

I use a combination of breadboard, stripboard, PCB, various protoboards with point to point wiring. It all depends on the complexity of the circuit.

I use to get stuff called triboard, which was like stripboard, but each strip was only three holes long. This was quite convenient for DIL packages. But now it seems hard to get.

I think i might try these next

http://core-electronics.com.au/adafruit-perma-proto-half-sized-breadboard-pcb-single.html?utm_source=google_shopping&gclid=CjwKEAjw-Oy_BRDg4Iqok57a4kcSJADsuDK1y7fWc_Z_mrB-Ft__VNS-g923ew9girMsswinI-K7vhoC-Avw_wcB

which is like a breadboard but solderable. 

​I looked at these​. They seem quite expensive. I did have a go at designing something similar, (to be made by a china PCB fab) but never finalised it. I'll try to dig it out.

When i was younger i used to use these

http://vinci.org/rlv/rpcm/orion/orion-cpu-board-back.jpg

hard to put through hole components on these though..

Ooh! ​Wire wrap. ​

 

Why ist hough-hole hard to do on this? (Do you mean surface mount?)

At the other end of the scale, I bought some of these:

http://www.silego.com/products/greenpak4.html

But have not yet manged to solder them successfully. (They are in a package about 2mm x 2mm)

Matt

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[Matt Callow]

On 11 October 2016 at 12:31, Kris <kr...@sleepingplanet.com> wrote:

Yeah the board is expensive, but it does look high quality.
I'm not sure what you're get back from China or oshpark...

​It doesn't look like it's got solder mask on the underside.

​

 

[kr...@sleepingplanet.com]

it doesn't, AFAIK that's so you can cut traces as required

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[Paul Hutchison]

I've got some tripad boards that I ordered from China. Much more sensible than straight strip board, imho. Not too expensive either, I think I got 5 boards, each about 250x100 for $12 or something.

[Matt Callow]

Do you have a link?

On 11 Oct 2016 5:57 pm, "Paul Hutchison" <pa...@pcdev.co.nz> wrote:

I've got some tripad boards that I ordered from China. Much more sensible than straight strip board, imho. Not too expensive either, I think I got 5 boards, each about 250x100 for $12 or something.

On Tue, 11 Oct 2016 1:58 pm <kr...@sleepingplanet.com> wrote:

it doesn't, AFAIK that's so you can cut traces as required

On 11.10.2016 11:50, Matt Callow wrote:

On 11 October 2016 at 12:31, Kris <kr...@sleepingplanet.com> wrote:

Yeah the board is expensive, but it does look high quality.
I'm not sure what you're get back from China or oshpark...

​It doesn't look like it's got solder mask on the underside.

​

 

 

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[John Slee]

On Tuesday, 11 October 2016 11:15:10 UTC+11, kr...@sleepingplanet.com wrote:

i last used eagle, i found it hard.

a lot of people have told me kicad is like eagle, except it was designed by people have only ever had a gui explained to them through google translate.

i tried fritzing but couldn't work out how to do a few simple things and got frustrated.

i know if i persevere with one i'll eventually get there but because i'm such a beginner it is a steep learning curve.

Totes agree with your assessment of Kicad and Fritzing.

I found Eagle a bit difficult at first too, but nowhere near as ghastly as Kicad. It's a bit quirky. Especially when creating new parts libraries there are some decidedly non-obvious aspects to it.

However I also found that putting a few hours of fine-tuning effort deriving (from the greater set of freely available libraries) a curated library of parts that are exactly how I want them ultimately made everything easier and faster. Example: I like SparkFun's through-hole resistor footprints[1], but I found that they put part of the silkscreen label on the wrong layer[2], resulting in incomplete silkscreen in the resulting Gerber files. Easily fixed, and fixing it in my parts library means it's fixed in everything I use that part in. I rarely need to do any post-layout silkscreen tweaks anymore.

I copy the parts I use into my own library called jslee-approved once I've had boards made with them and they turned out correct, and then try to use only parts from that library where possible. 

OSHPark's good if you don't need many boards. For small PCBs it probably matches, approximately, the price+shipping quote you'll get from Seeed Studio and others... but you get lovely ENIG finish :-)

There does seem to be a thriving community of stripboard users out there. There's even software for drawing and sharing your stripboard layouts. Not my swing, but a whole lot of people do seem to like it. Triboard sounds ace too.

[1] https://github.com/sparkfun/SparkFun-Eagle-Libraries

[2] they have probably fixed this by now

John

[Paul Hutchison]

On closer inspection (haven't actually used them yet) it's actually not strictly tripad and my dimensions were slightly inflated, but close enough:

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/5pcs-lot-4er-hole-Stripboard-Veroboard-vero-Board-Single-Side-8-5x20cm-bakelite-universal-experiment-circuit/32367760106.html?spm=2114.13010608.0.0.r5Hrpf

Only downside is they smell like the good old Bakelite boards from decades ago, phenolics is it?  Hopefully that will subside...

Paul

[Matt Callow]

Thanks. I have some of those. They are OK, but the design means that you can only have 2 rows of DIP packages on the board unless you start cutting tracks. Ends up with lots wasted space.

[Matt Callow]

This is the stuff used to use.

http://www.maplin.co.uk/p/tripad-board-jp52g

[kr...@sleepingplanet.com]

i've found the aliexpress version of the adafruit perma proto board

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/5pcs-lot-universal-Stripboard-Veroboard-Single-Side-7x5cm-joint-bakelite-Matrix-circuit-board-PCB-prototype-Platine/32592110755.html?spm=2114.10010108.1000013.9.Dw483a&scm=1007.13339.33317.0&pvid=e957c4b2-6f02-4e53-8697-a7aa8da705a0&tpp=1

they are approx 4x cheaper than the adafruit one

http://core-electronics.com.au/adafruit-perma-proto-half-sized-breadboard-pcb-single.html 

but... i think if you are like me, and keep reworking it as you make mistakes or change layout, the tracks will lift.

 

On 11.10.2016 19:55, Matt Callow wrote:

This is the stuff used to use.

http://www.maplin.co.uk/p/tripad-board-jp52g

On 11 Oct 2016 8:05 pm, "Paul Hutchison" <pa...@pcdev.co.nz> wrote:

On closer inspection (haven't actually used them yet) it's actually not strictly tripad and my dimensions were slightly inflated, but close enough:

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/5pcs-lot-4er-hole-Stripboard-Veroboard-vero-Board-Single-Side-8-5x20cm-bakelite-universal-experiment-circuit/32367760106.html?spm=2114.13010608.0.0.r5Hrpf

Only downside is they smell like the good old Bakelite boards from decades ago, phenolics is it?  Hopefully that will subside...

Paul

On 11 October 2016 at 18:34, Matt Callow <matt....@gmail.com> wrote:

Do you have a link?

On 11 Oct 2016 5:57 pm, "Paul Hutchison" <pa...@pcdev.co.nz> wrote:

I've got some tripad boards that I ordered from China. Much more sensible than straight strip board, imho. Not too expensive either, I think I got 5 boards, each about 250x100 for $12 or something.

On Tue, 11 Oct 2016 1:58 pm <kr...@sleepingplanet.com> wrote:

it doesn't, AFAIK that's so you can cut traces as required

On 11.10.2016 11:50, Matt Callow wrote:

On 11 October 2016 at 12:31, Kris <kr...@sleepingplanet.com> wrote:

Yeah the board is expensive, but it does look high quality.
I'm not sure what you're get back from China or oshpark...

​It doesn't look like it's got solder mask on the underside.

​

 

 

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[Paul Hutchison]

How funny.  I didn't think it was going to be an issue, but as a matter of fact I've just gone to use my first one now, and I see the problem :)  Potentially lots of wasted space or cutting of tracks involved.

Thanks

[John Slee]

On Tuesday, 11 October 2016 21:07:22 UTC+11, kr...@sleepingplanet.com wrote:

i've found the aliexpress version of the adafruit perma proto board

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/5pcs-lot-universal-Stripboard-Veroboard-Single-Side-7x5cm-joint-bakelite-Matrix-circuit-board-PCB-prototype-Platine/32592110755.html?spm=2114.10010108.1000013.9.Dw483a&scm=1007.13339.33317.0&pvid=e957c4b2-6f02-4e53-8697-a7aa8da705a0&tpp=1

don't jaycar have these? 

[Paul]

Kris, you've described exactly how I feel.
Thank you for sharing :)

[kr...@sleepingplanet.com]

:0)

John Slee is right though, if we play about and settle on a PCB design tool (EDA?) then this issue will just disappear.

 

In theory one would sketch the circuit in the EDA, then breadboard it as per schematic to test it works, then 'make the board' no need to transfer from breadboard to veroboard. So thats where i'm goign to try to get to.

 

when i joined the hackerspace my *first* project was to build a bitcoin miner with asics.

yes, first project! I got loads of help from the other members and even had the designs produced. i still have the (unpopulated) boards and $300 of components that are no larger than grains of sand. It should be noted that i had never done circuit board design and though re-flow was some sort of electrical property. I was the absolute example of the Dunning-Kruger effect.

but anyway, that was designed with ALtium. a product that is so powerful that it's learning curve actually reaches back through time and makes you frustrated before you've even started.

What i want in an EDA is:

open source if possible

easy to use (or at least good documentation)

works on linux (or is web based)

 

what i don't care about:

 

if the design is for children

if it stores designs in the 'cloud'

if it costs a little bit.

 

 

i last designed my multiplexed clocks in eagle. I was very proud of myself for making it single sided even though it was a significant routing challenge

Then i find out pcb houses charge the same for single or double sided boards :0)

 

i'm going to give easyEDA a go and see how that goes. Partly because it seems to link directly to seeed for production (removing all the design rule check and gerber creations etc) and secondly because they have an 'android' app which is bonkers.

[Iain Chalmers]

> when i joined the hackerspace my *first* project was to build a bitcoin miner with asics.

Heh! So did you ever make that work?

big

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[Julian Sortland]

Tandy used to sell a nice board which replicated breadboard, and not too expensive.  Unlike the ones shown it had wider tracks, like standard Veroboard.  RadioShack don't list them on their site, although they may have New Old Stock in physical stores, if you can find one open during your travels..

Veroboard also sell some, with both double-sized and single size US$4.50.  Double has fill length buses, single doesn't.  The right saw would set the two halves asunder.  :) 

https://veroboard.com/shop/bradboard/2x840-point-phenolic-breadboard/ 

There is something similar to the Marplin tri-board on ebay.

Jaycar have this, although the strips connecting IC pins are only 3 holes long: https://www.jaycar.com.au/ic-experimenters-board-140-x-95mm/p/HP9558 

Julian.

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