new video from Peter Byck: "Closing the Carbon Cycle"

[Brian Cartwright]

Hi to soil-agers,

This 13-minute video,

https://www.greenbiz.com/video/closing-carbon-cycle

is Peter Byck outlining his ASU team's project with Shell funding to research "AMP" or "Adaptive Multi-Paddock" grazing. Odd that Allan Savory and Holistic Planned Grazing get not one mention, but I also find it curious that in his final slide he shows an oil well as part of the "carbon cycle" that is being "closed". Is this Shell trying to dress themselves in green garb?  Do people find this mainly a positive development?

Brian

[Denise Ward]

No, no mention of Allan Savory's method. And partnering with Shell like it's a good thing!  This is how Shell wants to keep peddling their product by saying we are sequestering tons of carbon. As long as we leave these same people in charge of things, nothing will change. This is how they do it by infiltrating the environmental movement and the young up-and-comings, duping them into thinking they can restore the planet and playing on their sentiments and eagerness. The trickery is so sleazy and slick, it is quite puke worthy. Just my two cents worth...

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The government is not your friend. ~ The Minuteman

[Virginia Richter]

He’s a filmmaker! He’s reading a script. (written by Shell?)

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/soil-age/CADCsQZZy6-OXcwKKB-dXzhorrN3LjE%3DknvQ0vxOtCSWRPKXAvw%40mail.gmail.com.

[Karl Thidemann]

Hi Virginia,

Peter Byck is far more than a filmmaker.

As professor of sustainability at Arizona State University, Byck is one of the leading voices calling for regenerative agriculture as a climate mitigation solution.

I encourage you to check out his two earlier videos (see links below) before reaching any conclusions.

I have no problem with the largest industries on the planet turning their resources toward healing and away from harming. If this is the first public step in Shell's conversion, then kudos to them. Better late than never. I hope every coal, oil, and natural gas company follows suit.

When Exxon goes to trial for having deceived the public with regard to climate science, what better "punishment" for them than being forced to use their tremendous resources to pay for a global ecological restoration program to remove the excess carbon from the air?

Best wishes,

Karl

Karl Thidemann

Soil4Climate

In Soil Carbon Cowboys (12 mins.), ASU sustainability professor and filmmaker Peter Byck, producer of Carbon Nation, profiles three American ranchers using Savory's approach -- regenerative, high-density grazing of cattle -- to improve their land ...

https://vimeo.com/80518559

Soil Carbon Curious (6 minute video by Peter Byck) - Meet some of the scientists whose research is focused on how quickly land can be healed and atmospheric carbon sequestered.

https://vimeo.com/130721684

On Sunday, March 6, 2016, Virginia Richter <vpri...@gmail.com> wrote:

He’s a filmmaker! He’s reading a script. (written by Shell?)

 On Mar 5, 2016, at 16:53, Denise Ward <denis...@gmail.com> wrote:

No, no mention of Allan Savory's method. And partnering with Shell like it's a good thing!  This is how Shell wants to keep peddling their product by saying we are sequestering tons of carbon. As long as we leave these same people in charge of things, nothing will change. This is how they do it by infiltrating the environmental movement and the young up-and-comings, duping them into thinking they can restore the planet and playing on their sentiments and eagerness. The trickery is so sleazy and slick, it is quite puke worthy. Just my two cents worth...

Re:

https://www.greenbiz.com/video/closing-carbon-cycle

--

Best wishes,

Karl

Karl Thidemann

@soil4climate

Join at https://www.facebook.com/groups/soil4climate

[Gillian Barker]

Thanks, Karl, I was just composing an email to say the same things! The Savory Institute website cites him as one of the main people who is getting their message out, as well.

Best,

Gillian

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[Denise Ward]

The message that hits me is that we can keep on burning the stuff because now we have this incredible way of sequestering CO2. And this makes everyone happy (*not*).

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[Denise Ward]

I'm not playing the devil's advocate, (I'm on the other side!) however this is exactly the thinking that will get us nowhere. Although eventually the filmmaker will figure it out (I hope) because he seems genuine that burning fossil fuels has to stop. It doesn't end there though - Capitalism has to stop too. And this is all based on Capitalism and an exploitative monetary system. We cannot restore the soil until we understand this viscerally. Even if some soils are restored, there will be more forests going down because companies want profits and fossil fuels will continue to poison the planet. We need to rid ourselves of the root of the problem otherwise the problem will not go away. Yes we need to heal the soil and sequester carbon by this method. But the source of the degradation must be stopped. This seems elementary and until this is addressed, talk of mitigation is futile towards fixing the problem. I know this because things are getting worse overall (maybe in some aspects restoration is getting better but not overall) And I'm rather piqued over the fact that Allan Savory didn't even get a mention. This coterie is making out like they invented the system. Talk about copyright infringement and plagiarism!  I'm all for open information but give credit where credit is due!  The slickness of the presentation can lure our attention from what really needs to be done.

On Sun, Mar 6, 2016 at 1:14 PM, Karl Thidemann <karl.th...@gmail.com> wrote:

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[Karl Thidemann]

Friends,

I am forwarding this email to Soil Age at the request of Peter Byck.

Best to all,

Karl

On Mar 6, 2016, at 3:34 PM, Peter Byck <pe...@carbonnation.tv> wrote:

Dear Virginia and Denise, 

I appreciate your posts (below) and hope to address your concerns: I am a filmmaker, absolutely.  And as I say during the GreenBiz presentation, it was in making Soil Carbon Cowboys that I had so many questions about soil carbon and grazing, and then met scientists who taught me to have many more questions - and together, we have formed a team, with me helping with communications and organization and fund raising.  The scientists are pushing themselves and all of us to understand what is happening on these farms and ranches that are practicing what we are calling adaptive multi-paddock (AMP) grazing.  Soil Carbon Curious is about our science team.

When learning that farmers and ranchers could possibly be storing carbon in their soils, and then reading Richard Teague's paper demonstrating it, I went to Shell myself - 

and suggested that working with ranchers, and helping them store carbon and regenerate their land, may be a good way for Shell (and every company looking at their carbon legacy) to help store atmospheric carbon.  They listened.  And they have paid for research that is 100% open source.  We are designing our new Soil Carbon Cowboys website, and will be uploading that research and data soon; hopefully by early summer.  

Some people have been critical of our working with Shell.  From my perspective, if we can work with a large energy company to conduct science that may well lead to their focusing on soil health as a good business decision, then our time is well spent.  Besides, I use their product - I fly many times during the year - I'll be flying to California tomorrow for a soil health metrics and measurement conference.  (I am eager to fly in a biofuel powered airliner, but that may a few years off yet.  I know the folks at Boeing are working hard on this.)

We have 14 scientists on our team, and many more advising us officially and unofficially.  All with the goal of finding out what is the best way to manage rangeland, and if ranchers/farmers can regenerate the ecosystem via new ways to graze.

We are all incredibly inspired by the pioneering farmers and ranchers who are having such great success focusing on soil health.  We are telling their stories far and wide so many more producers can make their own decision about whether they want to try out these new methods.  We hope to make this actual & specific ranching knowledge very easy for them to obtain.

Please let us know if you have any questions - we appreciate your challenges.

With best regards,

Peter

peter byck

professor of practice - arizona state university

school of sustainability & cronkite school of journalism

soil carbon cowboys - 12 min https://vimeo.com/80518559

director+producer
carbonnationmovie.com

323.252.5272

We are like tenant farmers chopping down the fence around our house for fuel when we should be using Nature's inexhaustible sources of energy -- sun, wind and tide. ... I'd put my money on the sun and solar energy. What a source of power! I hope we don't have to wait until oil and coal run out before we tackle that. -Thomas Edison, inventor (1847-1931) 

[Erich Knight]

As a policy, Fossil reparations makes Me very Happy,
Capitalism can make soil restoration faster & even more wide spread.

Burning Fossil makes some 20# CO2/Gallon, Reparations need to cover that plus historic emissions, as long as they do then in a hundred years, after the oceans have given back their excess CO2, we may be asking them to burn more oil in order to make even more Soil.
That's the future I wish for.

Amen Karl!
and double AMEN Prof. Byck!!

Cheers,

Erich

Erich J. Knight
Shenandoah Gardens
1047 Dave Berry Rd. McGaheysville, VA. 22840
  540-289-9750   

Policy & Community Chairman
2013 North American Biochar Symposium
Harvesting Hope: The Science & Synergies of Biochar
October 13-16, 2013 at UMASS Amherst
http://pvbiochar.org/2013-symposium/

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[Denise Ward]

I hope you're joking but I have a feeling you may not be.

[Oliver Gardiner]

Hi Denise,

Thank you for your input as you raise important questions on which I would like to comment as I feel there's a lot of confusion here.

Knowing Peter, his view simply say's this: "If we can get a company like Shell to support biological CCS... we're winning"

And I would personally add: 

It is very difficult to stop large scale human activities (such as capitalism) - unless nature does the job itself of course. 

The solution to complexity is integration and this is Peter's strategy - if we do want global land degradation/carbon neutrality, we need everyone on board. Even the bad guys.

As for Peter not quoting Allan Savory,  

Here's a quote from Allan himself at the Savory Institute's "Putting Grassland to Work" conference in London in 2014.

"We have a planet to save, and holistic management is not just about me anymore, it belongs to each and everyone of you"

Time is running low, let's all do our best!

With appreciation,

Oliver

Sent from my Ipad

  

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[Erich Knight]

No Joke Denise;
The atmosphere has about 200 extra GtC, draw that down, then another extra 200 GtC in the oceans will be liberated, Then we would be at a stable 350 PPM CO2, with happy home making shell fish & corals.
Then if we wished to sequester more C to soil, it has to come from some where.
Fossil is an easy source, of course burning it in the future would be much more efficient. Now we can burn fossil fuels into electrons and EVs get 3X the number of miles from it, (little heat loss relative to IC engines).
Who knows how many more miles future EVs will get.

Cheers,

Erich

Erich J. Knight
Shenandoah Gardens
1047 Dave Berry Rd. McGaheysville, VA. 22840
  540-289-9750   

Policy & Community Chairman
2013 North American Biochar Symposium
Harvesting Hope: The Science & Synergies of Biochar
October 13-16, 2013 at UMASS Amherst
http://pvbiochar.org/2013-symposium/

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/soil-age/CAEuuQFNuTNWT8asQ0JeWDBtx23254a0j%3DXeqVGXOd195q7a-fg%40mail.gmail.com.

[Virginia Richter]

It is a very good thing that word gets out in as many ways as possible, but..no need to reinvent the wheel. Holistic Management is the term, no need for another: “adaptive multi-paddock” grazing. It’s confusing. The thought that this idea is so new isn’t true. Soil scientists, farmers, ranchers, university agriculture departments and the USDA have been studying, researching and practicing regenerative agriculture for many years and we have a lot of knowledge. We know what works. I’d also like to see no-till, cover cropping and drill planting presented. Of course there is room for a lot of innovation, new ideas and new products to improve soil quality. More farmers, making more money will result in many added jobs. Emphasizing that farmers and ranchers make more money and work less is a wonderful selling point!

Virginia

[Brian Cartwright]

Thanks, Peter for your response, and to Karl for facilitating.

The reason I started this thread is that I know there is debate about how to involve FF companies and other business entities in real regeneration. I'm not reflexively anti-capitalist. I did raise my eyebrows, though, at the slide of a carbon cycle including an oil well. I think it's time for that relic to be excluded from our modeling even though it is still part of the picture, because greenwashing is a big threat to everything we're working on here.

I'm encouraged that you describe your research as entirely open-source. I have no problem with business entities funding real regenerative solutions if they are open-source demonstrations rather than proprietary ventures. The times call for some very big projects to be done, and unfortunately making money is the only thing that gets most people's attention. I hope that truly incentivizing a healthy biosphere is a cause that can at least not be hindered by some business success for the kinds of ventures you guys are working on.

Best wishes,

Brian Cartwright 

bio4climate.org

[Virginia Richter]

Thank you for your comments Brian.  If there were a carbon tax, couldn’t farmers be paid for sequestering? Imagine the rush to become a farmer. I am still not clear about the difference between AMP and holistic grazing.

Virginia Richter, MD
Soil Activist
Rockville, Md
202-510-0757

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Virginia Richter, MD
Soil Activist
Rockville, Md
202-510-0757

[Christina Allday-Bondy]

Holistic grazing is associated with a defined decision making process (Holistic Management) that balances financial, social, and environmental concerns within a specific context, and towards a specific target. Not everyone who pursues AMP is grazing holistically. We hope for that, because the management unit is more likely to survive for the long term, but it’s not always the case.

Christina

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[Denise Ward]

Hi Peter,

 

Nice to hear from you.  I loved watching the video, it was colorful, interesting and appealing, which can be quite persuasive. I can see you are a great asset for Shell.  I want to be quite frank – I see money as a flawed concept.  Whether Capitalism, Communism or any other, the way money is structured is the same – it is based on greed (accumulation) and exploitation. And because of that foundation, it should be obvious that it is not good for humanity. Money is what got us to this precipice.  I would be ashamed to be employed by Shell.  I’m sure you must be aware of what they have done in Nigeria.  You seem like a smart man.

 

Shell is milking you too just like it did Nigeria.  I wonder if you would be doing this work if you were not being paid an astronomical amount (I’m assuming that and I would bet on it)  It seems obvious to me that those who really want to restore the planet, of which soil will play a major role in doing, would not be swayed by the same miscreants who caused the problem.  They would have to stop drilling right NOW and even then I would look askance. However we all cause the problem because we all use fossil fuels, some of us by a huge degree.  But must we shake hands with abusers?  Shouldn’t we call them on it rather than fall for their duplicity?  We make ourselves like mercenaries when we do. We can do it without them and faster.  Why do you think they invest so much in lobbyists and trying to stop government policy from transitioning to renewables?  I have been in this many decades and I have seen it get worse with now CO2 reaching over 400ppm!  This is insanity.

 

If money were to work, it should be based on something that is good for humanity.  What if it were based on CO2?  Imagine that – growing plants, using renewable energy, restoring soil, developing clean technologies – these would be incentives built-in to the money system instead of greed and exploitation.  I hope you realize that money is a game, a stupid, dangerous and demeaning game.  Why don’t you work for changing the paradigm instead of keeping with the same old same old?  It is not rocket science.  We just have to think differently and come up with a new game. 

 

Says Upton Sinclair: “It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it.”

 

Most people do not know about hemp and Henry Ford’s production of a fleet of cars that were made from and fueled by hemp but that is how is has been planned – for the general public to NOT know.  Hemp is a rapidly-renewable resource that sequesters carbon and conditions soil and can be made into a myriad of products from housing (hempcrete which is 50-80% more efficient), to paper (1 acre of hemp yields the same amount of paper as 4.1 acres of trees but in one season) And with no use of dioxins. Hemp also does not need herbicides or pesticides to grow.  By-the-way, the cotton industry uses around 40% of the pesticides in the world and hemp can also replace cotton.

 

Imagine in a new money paradigm scenario, farmers who grew hemp could supply producers of a myriad of hemp products and completely replace petrochemicals. Why has  this been left off  the table? Why is this not being studied in the universities?  I’ll tell you why – donors like Exxon Mobil and other multinationals! They want to infiltrate young minds.  And it has worked lip-smackingly well so far.

 

Imagine if you came to “the other side” to do your work and used your talents for creating a new paradigm.  One day you may even make a movie about money and how it is a mental disorder.  This might sound “esoteric” to you and others, but it’s important everyone know about hemp and its potential. Why is hemp prohibited?  (Along with its cousin, marijuana) These are beneficial plants with no negative side effects reported (many have been made up and swallowed whole nonetheless) Why are we still subsidizing fossil fuels?  How can you boast about flying around?  What is the difference  then to you and a climate denier in that case? That is not leading by example; climate deniers need to see action not talk. How can we convince the rest of the population when climate advocates do the same things as climate deniers?  Someone else on this list boasted about that too.  Can you imagine working to launch a world view that will turn things around for when you are my age and you have children of your own?  We can have a beautiful world where everyone is cared for, no starvation, no homelessness, no degradation of the natural world. Nature is abundant and time is life, it is not money.  Has your generation completely lost hope for getting out of this labyrinth of lies and voracity? 

 

We may have to experience a period of transition but it won’t kill us. And we’ll be so much better when we get to where we want to go without compromising our integrity.  I want everyone to live an abundant life, not just white people. We can do that and some of us have been figuring out how.

 

I refuse to bow to oil companies and multinationals and those who do are sell-outs. These companies have raped the planet I call home.  I trust nature and know that it is abundant when we act in harmony with its beautiful principles. Nature after all, is the longest running experimental lab ever.  It has worked out what is best a lot longer than we have.  I implore you and all who read this to take a very hard think because we are not making things better.  And by-the-way, you need to learn about Allan Savory and credit him for giving the cowboys the idea. 

 

 

On Mon, Mar 7, 2016 at 9:24 AM, Peter Byck <pe...@carbonnation.tv> wrote:

Virginia, I have come to realize that more prosperous farmers and ranchers, focusing on soil health, is a fantastic goal that will bring enormous benefits.  It gives me a ton of energy and focus.  I'm happy to speak anytime about the use of AMP grazing.  Best, Peter

peter byck

professor of practice - arizona state university

school of sustainability & cronkite school of journalism

soil carbon cowboys - 12 min https://vimeo.com/80518559

director+producer
carbonnationmovie.com

323.252.5272

We are like tenant farmers chopping down the fence around our house for fuel when we should be using Nature's inexhaustible sources of energy -- sun, wind and tide. ... I'd put my money on the sun and solar energy. What a source of power! I hope we don't have to wait until oil and coal run out before we tackle that. -Thomas Edison, inventor (1847-1931) 

[Denise Ward]

That is because you have closed off your imagination. You may be of the generation that is going to slam life on earth - my life has been lived in stable weather. I wonder what diseases your kids are going to suffer from living in a world that continues to burn fossil fuel. Yes Shell - have you seen what Shell does to native people?  I am probably going to get kicked off this thread which would be a pity because I like to see what experts think and it's scary.  I'll give you a clue - the Rubicon is that you must be able to see that 9/11 was a well-executed hoax (Three buildings falling symmetrically on their footprint takes skill to arrange) and two planes almost completely missing (but the government doesn't want us to see the pictures of the one that hit the Pentagon)  Me thinks you need to all get your minds aligned with what is really going on. But if you can't see how 9/11 was a hoax, perpetrated on the American people while they were in a state of shock and in a condition of suggestion. That is how people seem unable to believe that our illustrious government would do such a thing.  How can anyone defend Shell or any fossil fuel company? They have taken our civilization back decades at least, I'd say even more. We'd be much more further afield if we simply got serious and figured out how we were going to live within a small carbon footprint and make our systems reward such behavior. We need to live in a better world, a world where people don't keep secrets that could lift the world out of poverty with renewable energy technologies  that are hidden behind patents. We can't have a world where we censor ourselves from free thought because it offends someone. We would always be better to err on the side of free speech, regardless of people's sensitivities. After all we're blowing the brains out of children and countries everywhere and nobody seems to mind that. The dissonance is shattering. We have but a small window before the freaks put a chip in our heads. Or maybe they'll get it into us via vaccination or aerosol spraying. And it will always be money that makes people turn away from facing the issue squarely. When there is self-interest, the spine is weak and they know this. But money is not physics. It can be changed. It may be suiting you because you earn a lot however it leaves out a heck of a lot of people in this world. Are you sure you want to be on the side of the status quo? There's a whole lot of adventures with those of us who are willing to go the whole hog. Look, we're at the precipice remember?  Why do things the same way? It's boring as hell working and counting every dollar. Life beckons us beyond. But working for the fossil fuel companies is a total sell out and nobody is discourteous enough to say it. 

I really mean it, let's change this fucked up world?  Let's unfuck it together?  Use your skills to get onto a new world where we decide via consensus that is software-based. I think we only have the internet for a short time before the shadow faces get their mitts on it and make it "improved".  I might as well tell you I just want to puke that people fall for the trickery so easily. It's like you don't see how you're being had from every angle and you defend your oppressors.  I'm not lumping everyone in that category, I am sure some of you are as exasperated as I am. 

On Mon, Mar 7, 2016 at 2:45 PM, <rick.m...@motivaent.com> wrote:

Ouch… it is not every day that I am copied on an email that lumps money (essentially a mechanism for storing the fruits of labor) into all else that is bad in human nature and ALSO contains the line, “I would be ashamed to be employed by Shell.”  

 

As the email was directed to our esteemed colleague Peter, I’ll just get back to work doing things that at least, for the short term, seem to be useful to quite a few people.  

 

Everyone enjoy your drive, ride, flight to/from wherever you are going today.

[Greg Smith]

Some time ago, maybe 2010, I attended an annual conference on peak oil and gas.

One of the most insightful things I heard anyone
say was, "Nobody ever changed anyone else's mind by calling him an asshole."

At 06:53 PM 3/7/2016, Denise Ward wrote:
>That is because you have closed off your
>imagination. You may be of the generation that
>is going to slam life on earth - my life has
>been lived in stable weather. I wonder what
>diseases your kids are going to suffer from
>living in a world that continues to burn fossil
>fuel. Yes Shell - have you seen what Shell does

>to native people? I am probably going to get

>kicked off this thread which would be a pity
>because I like to see what experts think and

>it's scary. I'll give you a clue - the Rubicon

>is that you must be able to see that 9/11 was a
>well-executed hoax (Three buildings falling
>symmetrically on their footprint takes skill to
>arrange) and two planes almost completely
>missing (but the government doesn't want us to
>see the pictures of the one that hit the

>Pentagon) Â Me thinks you need to all get your

>minds aligned with what is really going on. But
>if you can't see how 9/11 was a hoax,
>perpetrated on the American people while they
>were in a state of shock and in a condition of
>suggestion. That is how people seem unable to
>believe that our illustrious government would do

>such a thing. How can anyone defend Shell or

>any fossil fuel company? They have taken our
>civilization back decades at least, I'd say even
>more. We'd be much more further afield if we
>simply got serious and figured out how we were
>going to live within a small carbon footprint
>and make our systems reward such behavior. We
>need to live in a better world, a world where
>people don't keep secrets that could lift the
>world out of poverty with renewable energy

>technologies  that are hidden behind patents.

>We can't have a world where we censor ourselves
>from free thought because it offends someone. We
>would always be better to err on the side of
>free speech, regardless of people's
>sensitivities. After all we're blowing the
>brains out of children and countries everywhere
>and nobody seems to mind that. The dissonance is
>shattering. We have but a small window before
>the freaks put a chip in our heads. Or maybe
>they'll get it into us via vaccination or
>aerosol spraying. And it will always be money
>that makes people turn away from facing the
>issue squarely. When there is self-interest, the
>spine is weak and they know this. But money is
>not physics. It can be changed. It may be
>suiting you because you earn a lot however it
>leaves out a heck of a lot of people in this
>world. Are you sure you want to be on the side
>of the status quo? There's a whole lot of
>adventures with those of us who are willing to
>go the whole hog. Look, we're at the precipice

>remember? Why do things the same way? It's

>boring as hell working and counting every
>dollar. Life beckons us beyond. But working for
>the fossil fuel companies is a total sell out

>and nobody is discourteous enough to say it.Â

>
>I really mean it, let's change this fucked up

>world? Let's unfuck it together? Use your

>skills to get onto a new world where we decide
>via consensus that is software-based. I think we
>only have the internet for a short time before
>the shadow faces get their mitts on it and make

>it "improved". I might as well tell you I just

>want to puke that people fall for the trickery
>so easily. It's like you don't see how you're
>being had from every angle and you defend your

>oppressors. I'm not lumping everyone in that
>category, I am sure some of you are as exasperated as I am.Â

[Denise Ward]

They're not insults. I'm trying to shake you like you're trying to shake others. I'll talk to you privately.

On Mon, Mar 7, 2016 at 10:58 PM, Peter Byck <pe...@carbonnation.tv> wrote:

Denise, I've only ready your 1st few lines but I stop at the insults.  Our groups does want to hear all points of view - but none of us want to deal in insults and rudeness.  Do you want to be heard?  This group speaks in solutions - we are well aware of massive problems on earth.  We are dedicated to solving what we can.  And many of the fine people on this thread have weathered slings and arrows for too long as it is.  They are my heroes.

I'd suggest you just email me going forward - as you are correct, others have asked that this thread stop.

Peter

peter byck

professor of practice - arizona state university

school of sustainability & cronkite school of journalism

soil carbon cowboys - 12 min https://vimeo.com/80518559

director+producer
carbonnationmovie.com

323.252.5272

We are like tenant farmers chopping down the fence around our house for fuel when we should be using Nature's inexhaustible sources of energy -- sun, wind and tide. ... I'd put my money on the sun and solar energy. What a source of power! I hope we don't have to wait until oil and coal run out before we tackle that. -Thomas Edison, inventor (1847-1931) 

[Erich Knight]

OK,.... It is official,.... for me anyway,  to never ever read another posting from Denise. "9/11 was a well-executed hoax" and F-bombs galore, what more do I need to say.
The biggest fallacy of conspiracy theorist is the assumption that governments are competent enough to carry them out.

I suspect we will hear next how we never went to the moon, cell phone cause brain cancer and vaccinations......don't get me started.   

Cheers,

Erich

Erich J. Knight
Shenandoah Gardens
1047 Dave Berry Rd. McGaheysville, VA. 22840
  540-289-9750   

Policy & Community Chairman
2013 North American Biochar Symposium
Harvesting Hope: The Science & Synergies of Biochar
October 13-16, 2013 at UMASS Amherst
http://pvbiochar.org/2013-symposium/

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[Seth]

Hi Folks,

Sorry I've been absent from the list for a while and perhaps neglecting my duties as moderator.

I've been busy with the soil4climate Facebook group, which you are all welcome to join.

Let's call a "time out" on this thread and people can take conversations private if they choose.

The protocol in this list is the same as any other with adults in intellectual discourse. Stay on topic. Stay professional. And stay polite. People can (and hopefully will) have different opinions that are expressed properly.

Thank you for being on this list. Let's keep it a desirable space.

Yours,

- seth

Sent from my iPhone

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[Denise Ward]

Well at least we know where you stand Erich. I'd like to engage in a debate with you about these subjects. 

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/soil-age/CAEO_ii_86JSXN%2BPjRU_3sdn1%2B7brvdAyGQZEf_1-K3gNquuHxQ%40mail.gmail.com.

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[Greg Smith]

Thanks, Seth.

Well said.

Best,

Greg

[Nan Hildreth]

So many of my fellow environmentalists are like Denise. Even if they
cover their feelings with courteous talk, they are afraid and preachy.

It seems most of our greenie leaders despair that the community is a
bunch of dummies, lemmings. Believe that folks should be pounded with
scary facts. They are bad teachers.

15 years ago, I engaged in long dramatic email debates. And learned a
lot. And e-met many kind, wise elders. They believed that we need the
passion of the young to fuel the paradigm shift. That a popular movement
requires lots and lots of people. And I learned I have a contribution
to make. And that I should keep trying to make it.

Nan in her garden in East Texas

[Denise Ward]

I didn't call anyone an asshole. Environmentalists need to stand firm, not take money from fossil fuel companies! We also desperately need to educate the public about the carbon cycle and the exponential factor IMO. I agree it would be great to get the young generations inspired, for example doing street theater and debates. In fact I've wanted to see a debate for so long on whether climate change is anthropogenic that I think I'll have to arrange one. 

I wrote some time back asking for an explanation on the 4 per 1000 thing that came out of the COP21 summit but nobody answered. Maybe my question was too elementary but I think we have to be about spreading knowledge because climate change is mostly under-the-radar in most people's minds. I would still like to know but maybe I have to go elsewhere to find it. Grist writes that news on climate change has decreased since 2009 not increased. And news on climate denial increased. We're doing something wrong folks. I may tend to panic but shouldn't we all by now?  How are we going to get the message across if we are not vehement and strong about what we say?  Preachy?  Ok, whatever. I want to hear scientists shout danger!  But that's not going to happen. If we really believe what we are saying to each other, then it is time to get serious about getting the word out to Mr and Mrs Average American. But flying around and using fossil fuels like it doesn't matter makes us hypocrites and just as bad as climate deniers. People notice. We cannot get away from fossil fuels that is true, because the infrastructure for anything else has been wiped out but we should be calling for conservation right now, and living a low footprint till we get guilt-free energy. We should be acting as examples. That can influence people and hopefully they will get a conscience. 

We cannot have a paradigm shift when we keep doing things in this paradigm. 

I want us to change the world - do you? It will not be done by being comfortable. We may have to lose comforts for a while but we have so much to gain if we can steer this ship around. Fossil fuel is making us go backwards. Why do you suppose the combustion engine hasn't changed (much) for one hundred years? 

Namaste to all!

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[Denise Ward]

Hi Oliver, 

I appreciate the angles you seek to defend and I welcome any criticism or challenge. I believe it is very important to have the debate. I'd like to reply...

I think Peter is doing what he thinks is right. However as I said, (and I know this may sound extreme) - money is the problem. And to say that what caused the problem can be the solution to the problem does not compute. This is not good  thinking. 

I realize that money is akin to an epidemic and we're all trapped. We're also trapped because the fossil fuel industry tore up any alternative to their product (in order to make money) I submit that money is actually the mechanism that keeps us ensnared. The way to get out of this trap is to minimize the money problem not expand it (or do away with it altogether best case scenario but it is so embedded in us that we may have to upgrade it at best) But in the end it comes down to belief - do we believe that nature is capable of providing everything we need? If so then we ought to be in accord with the patterns of nature. Underlying nature are formulas that favor decentralization and diversity. If we are really smart, we would organize ourselves in a similar fashion and make our systems be harmonious with nature. And then we would experience unparalleled prosperity IMO. We don't need to live like stone agers because the technology we have (ie; the internet, 3D printing, etc) has the potential to aid us in shifting the paradigm in just about all things. 

Money does the opposite, it comes from a central agency (the Fed) which issues it making only one agency in charge of the rules (we have see what this has wrought) This system is neither decentralized nor diverse. As nature is really an all-encompassing scientific laboratory, is has found that diversity is the survival mechanism and this has unfolded after billions of years of evolutionary laboratory work. And how long has science been around?  I would like to see science merge with nature rather than try to conquer it which I believe is the MO of science today. But it doesn't have to be. 

Working for a fossil fuel company means we will never give the right signals to the fossil fuel companies nor to the people working to get off them ie: we are included in that group. So for all the work we do, we are essentially running on the spot. If you don't believe me see what has happened to climate science since universities have been accepting money from fossil fuel companies. When we accept money we are putting ourselves in a certain condition. I submit this condition is counter to the condition we need to be in in order to get off fossil fuels. We can see this clearly if we look at the statistics - all climate indicators are getting worse. Don't you think we need to try something different if we want different results?

As for Peter not mentioning Allan Savory...I consider this a breach of courtesy at best and a continuation of the type of silence that happens to many originators. But now since Peter knows, he may recognize and honor Allan Savory in future. This highlights another syndrome that has been rife throughout history during the times of media centralization. It was usual to ignore those who did the ground work, who were the true originators, who couldn't give a hoot about money, who often died poor in their efforts to change the world, and instead, elevate those who made money (ie; Telsa/Edison). I'm surprised that this group is so willing to give Peter a pass on this one. By-the-way, I am not demeaning Peter or anyone else. I am simply raising these issues because there is no counter argument, we keep regurgitating the same boilerplates.

Do we want change? Do we really want change? Then we must have the willingness to be uncomfortable sometimes. Change never comes from comfort. We cannot be said to be doing our best when we reach for the most expedient solutions. We have to advance new solutions. And they are always there to reach for if we only had the nerve.The bad guys yes, can come on board. But they have shown us what they are about and now they need to come on board to new methods that are promulgated by others. They have shown us they are incompetent, heartless, money grabbing degenerates. I believe without them we can go further, (maybe not at first)  For as long as we are in their pocket, we will remain limited and will only improvement will show in isolated incidences. For change to occur in the aggregate, we need change in thinking. I believe doing the right thing without dangling carrots is the proper solution, the fastest,the most direct and the most forceful. We need inspiration as our motivator, not money. If our health endures...

Namaste to all!

On Mon, Mar 7, 2016 at 4:05 AM, Oliver Gardiner <oliverga...@gmail.com> wrote:

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