Challenges for a software craftsmanship shop start-up
Mark Nijhof
I am currently in a job position that I don't like very much, there is
no notion of craftsmanship (the principles, not the word) nor is there
passion for the craft. I have been there for about a year and a half
and I feel that no matter what I try I don't achieve any lasting
positive change, management buy-in is just not there. So I am looking
around and there are some shops in Norway and Sweden that would be a
major step into the right direction, but I am also curious about
another approach.
Starting a software craftsmanship shop myself. Now I was hoping to get
some feedback on a few initial questions as I know you might have some
good pointers.
- How much harder is it to get customers versus the traditional
approach? Especially in the beginning, meaning you need to market it
differently as well? The whole agile projects versus everything is
known up front mentality (including price) is a hard sell, would you
compromise at first in your sales talk and just do it? Or?
- When doing this yourself, how much are you becoming a manager versus
a developer? (hire an accountant for sure).
- I imagine the best would be to do in-house projects, or do you go to
the clients?
- Is there a preferred number of people that you would want to start with?
- When do apprentices come into play? You need to be established
enough for this I am sure.
- What did I miss ;P
- Specific to Scandinavians; Do you guys think this would work here?
(I believe it will, but hey I am Dutch).
I am sure there are many things that I am missing, but the idea of
working for myself (or in combination with similar minded people) in
the way that I would like to work (following the principles of
software craftsmanship) is very appealing to me. Also the opportunity
to mentor apprentice developers towards becoming a craftsman is an
amazing idea, and very much needed in our industry. (Corey's software
craftsmanship school is f.ex. an amazing idea as well, something I
hope in the far future to be able to contribute on as well).
I am going to have another challenge and that is that we (family) will
relocate to a different place where I am not to familiar yet (this
might actually be the biggest deal breaker for the moment) currently
we are either thinking about Malmo Sweden or Oslo Norway.
I am still in the very early stages of thinking about something like
this and I hope you excuse my questions as I am sure they are not the
most important ones. Anyway I hope to spark off a discussion about
what it takes and also the downsides of taking such route. Any
pointers are highly appreciated.
Cheers,
-Mark
Peter Bell
Of course, there are many software engineers who are self employed - many of whom primarily love and focus on the work, but if you're seriously considering building up a business with a number of employees over time, do it because you love to start businesses - not because you love to code.
Not in any way trying to dissuade you as many people who are not really focused on the business side have managed to create successful software development shops, but I'd definitely spend more time asking questions about this on entrepreneur and business lists than on SC :-)
Best Wishes,
Peter
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Peter Bell
On Dec 30, 2009, at 6:12 PM, Mark Nijhof wrote:
> - How much harder is it to get customers versus the traditional
> approach? Especially in the beginning, meaning you need to market it
> differently as well? The whole agile projects versus everything is
> known up front mentality (including price) is a hard sell, would you
> compromise at first in your sales talk and just do it? Or?
Depends on the sophistication of the clients, the supply and demand for developers, how good you are at sales, and how effectively you position your offerings. I have found it a challenge on smaller projects, so I generally do fixed bid for the smaller clients and make enough of a profit through the effective re-use of IP (I have a software product line) that most of the craftsmanship I practice is researching and adding functionality to my DSM/SPL solutions which I use internally as productivity tools rather than selling directly.
> - When doing this yourself, how much are you becoming a manager versus
> a developer? (hire an accountant for sure).
Again, it depends. You might walk into a client at your first networking meeting who keeps you and your team busy for a decade, but often you become more of a sales person than a manager or a developer. Time management, context switching and focus are also real issues when you're balancing business issues, sales calls, hiring and development in the same 40 hour week.
> - I imagine the best would be to do in-house projects, or do you go to
> the clients?
Both have strengths and weaknesses. Initially whatever you can get. As the business becomes established (anything from 6 months to 6 years), whatever you find that you prefer.
> - Is there a preferred number of people that you would want to start with?
Probably none as you have no way of paying them :-)
> - When do apprentices come into play? You need to be established
> enough for this I am sure.
When you have the time to mentor them. Or to hire someone to mentor them. Actually with a small business, apprentices and mentoring works pretty well. The challenge is usually finding the right people as in a small business it is OK if your apprentice doesn't deliver, but you still have to, so you may have to spend the days coaching them and the nights redoing any work not up to your clients standards.
> - What did I miss ;P
You'll find out when you start - more than you expect, but if you love running a business, you'll figure it out!
Good luck!
Peter
> - Specific to Scandinavians; Do you guys think this would work here?
> (I believe it will, but hey I am Dutch).
>
> I am sure there are many things that I am missing, but the idea of
> working for myself (or in combination with similar minded people) in
> the way that I would like to work (following the principles of
> software craftsmanship) is very appealing to me. Also the opportunity
> to mentor apprentice developers towards becoming a craftsman is an
> amazing idea, and very much needed in our industry. (Corey's software
> craftsmanship school is f.ex. an amazing idea as well, something I
> hope in the far future to be able to contribute on as well).
>
> I am going to have another challenge and that is that we (family) will
> relocate to a different place where I am not to familiar yet (this
> might actually be the biggest deal breaker for the moment) currently
> we are either thinking about Malmo Sweden or Oslo Norway.
>
> I am still in the very early stages of thinking about something like
> this and I hope you excuse my questions as I am sure they are not the
> most important ones. Anyway I hope to spark off a discussion about
> what it takes and also the downsides of taking such route. Any
> pointers are highly appreciated.
>
> Cheers,
>
> -Mark
>
John Pritchard
Yes, this thread evokes the idea that craftsmen may eventually be able to charge more for their products than competitors. But that takes some years of accomplishment.
First, your craft must be effective under the terms found in the marketplace.
http://www.google.com/profiles/john.douglas.pritchard
Mark Nijhof
Thanks for both your elaborate answers, I have to admit that the urge
to work in a great team is greater then the urge to start a business,
but considering that 99.9% of the existing software shops are not
reflecting the type of teams then maybe the business part should be
challenged a lot by the "I want to work in/with a great team" part?
But I see your point. Btw with the question alone or with others, I
meant in a joint venture with others, not me employing them :) I am
going to order the book you mentioned!
Hi John,
I would like to underline that my goal is not to get rich (all do that
would be nice) but what I really want is to work in a particular
environment. I love the craft but I am limited to where I can get my
family to move to. Else I would apply for one of the existing shops in
the US.
Perhaps I secretly hope there is such a company in the area?
-Mark
John Pritchard
Hi John,
I would like to underline that my goal is not to get rich (all do that
would be nice) but what I really want is to work in a particular
environment. I love the craft but I am limited to where I can get my
family to move to. Else I would apply for one of the existing shops in
the US.
Perhaps I secretly hope there is such a company in the area?
-Mark
Hi Mark,
me too :) haven't found it yet. common dream. (esp in this group!)
Cheers,
John
--
http://www.google.com/profiles/john.douglas.pritchard
Mark Nijhof
-Mark
John Pritchard
That's why I am thinking perhaps time to try to _make_ the dream come true?
Well, aside from the caveat utor, "the economy is rotten"
Torbjörn Gyllebring
Mahatma Ghandi put it quite well "We must become the change we want to see.”
Peter Bell
John Pritchard
Most of the good devs I know have never been busier, so while the economy may not be the best, I wouldn't let that dissuade you. Also, we're on the upswing which is generally a really good time to start a business.
I know I spend too much time buried in my open source projects, but I've been seeing extraordinarily nervous and even ridiculous things this past year.
So, java dev available. client side and server side. esp products and technologies, but apps as well.
--
http://www.google.com/profiles/john.douglas.pritchard
Steven Smith
I definitely recommend the E-Myth book as well. I wrote off-list as
well with some contact info if you want some more specific advice, but
one point I did want to cover on list is your question about
apprentices. One thing that I've found to be very successful is the
use of interns (college students), which basically fill the role of
apprentice. They don't know much, so there's little unlearning to do.
They're cheap (relatively speaking). And they fill your long term
pipeline in terms of recruiting. I'd much rather have a couple of
interns for a year and then decide whether to hire one of them full
time than interview 20 new grads and try and guess which one(s) will
be worth their salary over the next year. I think of the
intern/apprenticeship as a months-long interview (just be sure to keep
the number of interns/apprentices manageable - they should always have
a full time dev to pair with). Another note - if you really are
running the business yourself and doing all the sales, accounting,
marketing, payroll, etc etc you are not a full time dev so you don't
count or only count a fraction for this.
HTH,
Steve
PS - if you're in northeast Ohio and interested in SC, please join us
at http://HudsonSC.com/ 3rd wednesday of each month.
--
Steve Smith
http://SteveSmithBlog.com/
http://twitter.com/ardalis
Steven Smith
since many companies have laid off their "slack" and they need the
ability to sprint to deliver on projects. And recovery does seem to
be coming, slowly but surely, too. In any event, plenty of businesses
did very well during the Great Depression, so don't let "the economy"
be an excuse not to try.
Steve
--
Pierre Rosado
Hi Peter,
Thanks for both your elaborate answers, I have to admit that the urge
to work in a great team is greater then the urge to start a business,
but considering that 99.9% of the existing software shops are not
reflecting the type of teams then maybe the business part should be
challenged a lot by the "I want to work in/with a great team" part?
But I see your point. Btw with the question alone or with others, I
meant in a joint venture with others, not me employing them :) I am
going to order the book you mentioned!
As Peter said, IMHO,you have to be sure about the motivations for starting a business. Every company must satisfy an economic need. In your case, you should think if a shop with the team work features that you mention would have an positive economic impact. This is, could it reduce costs? Does it add more value to your client? Does it increase the productivity in the relations with your clients? Could it attract better talent than your competitors?
Regarding to starting a company with partners: I believe it is the best approach. The key advantages: a team could be, by far, more creative that an individual and you share the risk with your partners. But, it is very important to be careful while selecting your them. Look for people who share your values and objectives. And I said people, because I think that 3 is a good number to start. One that is sales oriented, the best programmer in the group, and you. So, look for people that complement you.
I recommend you to check the hacking business model. I have not used it yet, but Monty did and It worked.
Regarding st
Hi John,
I would like to underline that my goal is not to get rich (all do that
would be nice) but what I really want is to work in a particular
environment. I love the craft but I am limited to where I can get my
family to move to. Else I would apply for one of the existing shops in
the US.
Perhaps I secretly hope there is such a company in the area?
-Mark
Starting a business is a gratifying experience. You learn that you do not know anything about a lot subjects! ;) . Even, you learn a lot about yourself.
I encourage to think a lot about it, inform yourself, and consult with your family before taking the final decision.
Finally, I suggest you the following blog and books:
http://www.paulgraham.com/
http://www.amazon.com/Art-Start-Time-Tested-Battle-Hardened-Starting/dp/1591840562
http://www.amazon.com/Making-All-Work-Winning-Business/dp/067001995X
Cheers,
---------------
Pierre Rosado
Cory Foy
Mark Nijhof wrote:
> positive change, management buy-in is just not there. So I am looking
> around and there are some shops in Norway and Sweden that would be a
> major step into the right direction, but I am also curious about
> another approach.
>
> Starting a software craftsmanship shop myself. Now I was hoping to get
> some feedback on a few initial questions as I know you might have some
> good pointers.
While I didn't start a SC company (yet) I did go independent about 7
weeks ago. I also think now is a great time to start a company -
basically if you are good at what you do, almost any time is a great
time to start! ;)
However, a couple of things. I'd pick up some books on starting your own
consulting gig - my favorite was "Getting Started in Consulting" by Alan
Weiss. There are a couple of things you have to take into consideration:
1) There's risk involved. It's not your normal, "I do work and then get
paid". My first contract, which starts Tuesday, is Net-30 term to the
company, and then net-7 to me. Which means that the company I'm going
through submits the invoice, and the company I'm doing the work for has
30 days to pay it. And then the company I'm doing the work for has 7
days to get my portion to me. I am doing Corp-To-Corp (meaning they are
going through my company instead of me) which changes things a bit, but
you have to be prepped for those spells
2) Make sure your family is on board. It wasn't until the resistance
from my wife fell away that I started seriously doing the legwork of
going independent. They have to be behind you 100%.
3) Reaching out to your network - it is key to be building your network
of folks now. That's what you are going to start your business off of.
4) You don't get to just code - There's a lot to do running a business.
I've learned quite a bit about tax laws, business laws, contracts, and
organization. Luckily I've been an independent contractor before, and
have set up a corporation before, so I had an idea of what I was getting
into.
5) It's a lot of work - You are the go-to person for everything. If your
computer breaks down, you have to ship it in. If you run out of toner,
you have to go to the office supply store.
Finally, here in the states there are organizations devoted to helping
small business owners get off the ground. They typically are made up of
retired executives who offer expertise and advice for new business
owners. Check to see if your country has something similar.
Stepping out on your own is a big step, but as the adage goes, you can
change your organization, or change your organization. And sometimes the
change is starting your own. ;)
Good luck!
--
Cory Foy
http://www.coryfoy.com
Enterprise Agility /Redefined/
Skype: CoryFoy
Twitter: @cory_foy
--
Cory Foy
http://www.coryfoy.com
http://twitter.com/cory_foy
Cory Foy
Mark Nijhof wrote:
> positive change, management buy-in is just not there. So I am looking
> around and there are some shops in Norway and Sweden that would be a
> major step into the right direction, but I am also curious about
> another approach.
>
> Starting a software craftsmanship shop myself. Now I was hoping to get
> some feedback on a few initial questions as I know you might have some
> good pointers.
While I didn't start a SC company (yet) I did go independent about 7
Kim Gräsman
On Thu, Dec 31, 2009 at 03:24, Cory Foy <fo...@cornetdesign.com> wrote:
>
> 4) You don't get to just code - There's a lot to do running a business.
> I've learned quite a bit about tax laws, business laws, contracts, and
> organization. Luckily I've been an independent contractor before, and
> have set up a corporation before, so I had an idea of what I was getting
> into.
I don't have first-hand experience with starting a business, but I
live in Sweden, and I have a friend who eventually left the country
because he was so fed up with the governmental friction with regard to
taxes and regulations.
I don't know whether he was overly theatrical, but he seems much
better off in Switzerland, where he's currently based.
FWIW,
- Kim
Dave Hoover
> Thanks for both your elaborate answers, I have to admit that the urge
> to work in a great team is greater then the urge to start a business,
When I had the urge to work on a great team back in 2004, I joined
ThoughtWorks. It looks like they now have a Swedish office:
http://www.thoughtworks.se/
One of the best teams I worked on at ThoughtWorks included Aslak
Hellesøy. He is now the Chief Scientist at BEKK in Oslo, Norway:
http://www.bekk.no/
There's certainly no guarantee that you'll accomplish your goal by
joining either of these companies, but I recommend talking to both of
them before you make your decision. After a few years at either
company, you'll likely have a better handle on how to start your own
shop, or at least will have developed the local connections to make
that more realistic. I know that was true for me.
Best,
--Dave
Mark Nijhof
-Mark
Mark Nijhof
I didn't receive your direct e-mail?
So you would say there is a 1 to 1 relation between apprentice and
mentor? I would have thought a 2 to 1, but I see your point there as
well. I would like to have the apprentices pair as well as this would
be good as well.
Others,
Thanks for your input and links! I will have to think much more about
it and discuss more with the family as well (they seem positive), but
I have been thinking about being on my own for a few years now. Not
that that makes me more qualified but at least I have been thinking
about it a bit before :) Going from being an independent contractor
towards building a team could be a natural way to go.
-Mark
Mark Nijhof
BEKK is one of the companies that I meant that would be a very good
step into the right direction, and if we would stay in Norway would
probably be my first choice. I met Aslak when I invited him to do a
Cucumber talk to our local NNUG (a very interesting and knowledgeable
person indeed). ThoughtWorks is a very interesting company as well,
not sure if the Sweden office is more then only Ola Bini :) And I
would have to think about Stockholm. I also know ObjectWare in Oslo
which looks very similar to BEKK and Factor 10 in Sweden with Jimmy
Nilsson. I will try to talk to all of them before deciding.
Appreciate the feedback!
-Mark
Dave Hoover
has been a good friend and a prolific open source contributor over the
years. I've learned a lot from pairing with him and watching how he
approaches his projects.
Regarding ThoughtWorks Sweden, I'm not sure of its status. I believe
Ola is now in Chicago, so there must be more to it than "only Ola". :)
Ola Ellnestam
The climate in Scandinavia is pretty decent when it comes to Software Craftamanship and agile. But it's pretty tough times for everyone. If you want to know more about the Swedish/Stockholm 'scene' email me off list.
//Ola
Mark Nijhof
thinking about Sweden, but this is not set in stone. Also I would
imagine (but I can ask this) that the opportunities to pair with Aslak
are now quite a bit lower now that he is Chief Scientist vs project
member :)
ThoughtWorks; Yes you would imagine so :) (ah just saw Ola's e-mail so
perhaps not).
-Mark
On Fri, Jan 1, 2010 at 11:05 PM, Dave Hoover <dave....@gmail.com> wrote:
Mark Nijhof
-Mark
Steven Smith
year, so you can have 2:1 but only if you schedule them such that
they're not all there at the same time. The main thing you want to
avoid is apprentices pairing with other apprentices, at least when
you're first getting them up to speed and trying to get them using the
practices you want them to follow.
Steve
--
Knut Haugen
- How much harder is it to get customers versus the traditional
approach? Especially in the beginning, meaning you need to market it
differently as well? The whole agile projects versus everything is
known up front mentality (including price) is a hard sell, would you
compromise at first in your sales talk and just do it? Or?
- When doing this yourself, how much are you becoming a manager versus
a developer? (hire an accountant for sure).
- I imagine the best would be to do in-house projects, or do you go to
the clients?
- Is there a preferred number of people that you would want to start with?
- When do apprentices come into play? You need to be established
enough for this I am sure.
- What did I miss ;P
- Specific to Scandinavians; Do you guys think this would work here?
(I believe it will, but hey I am Dutch).
My impression is that being an independant consultant (in software development) is less common in Norway than in the US. It is quite common (in Oslo) among photographers and graphic designers (I know three) but again my impression is that the Oslo marked for development services is dominated by the medium to large consulting firms.
Some more or less random thoughts:
- when moving to a new city, you need to get a new network. Doing this while getting a company up and running can be a daunting task
* In light of that: maybe, as others have indicated, a couple of years at the "right" consultancy firm might provide a softer start? Bekk and Objectware has been mentioned already. Steria is a large firm, but their chief scientist is Johannes Brodwall, which is one tof the driving forces behind the Norwegian agile conference (with Aslak and others) and the oslo XP user group. KnowIT ObjectNet does a lot of things right in my opinion, as does Iterate (which is a top-to-bottom Lean company). If your Norwegian is up to it, this talk from Javazone 09 covers what KnowIt does for knowledge exchange for instance:
http://tcs.java.no/tcs/?id=9D9676C8-98B1-46CC-869A-C03FAF99B2A2
- In my view, the raising of the bar in terms of adoption of craftsmanship values and agile methodologies is done by the consulting companies in Oslo. Outside them, there is slim to no adoption/knowledge. So don't expect potential clients to buy the cool-aid without persuasion. :-)
- When it comes to taxes and law: the brønnøysund registry has some info on starting a new company in Norway: https://www.altinn.no/no/hjelp-til-regelverk/ (in norwegian, but some info in english)
- tax return can be troublesome for companies, even as a one-man-show. Hire an accountant
- in-house vs clients: I would suspect funding/steady clients have to come before the choosing of in-house projects versus clients. See first point.
- when it comes to apprentices: how much are you planning to pay them? Some (Uncle bob comes to mind) has talked of a model where the apprentices has a low wage while being an apprentice, more like the apprenticeship years in carpenting or other manual crafts. I think this can be very hard to sell in competition with consulting firms in oslo which will hire people fresh out of university for probably up to 200-300K NOK. I guess it depends on you apprenticeship model and the details of it. And how much time you can spend on finding the right apprentices who are willing to work for the money you offer and are good apprenticeship material.
feel free to email me privately for more stuff on Oslo and norway in particular, which may be of less interest to the mailing list.
--
Knut Haugen
Why do today what you can postpone till tomorrow
Mark Nijhof
Thanks for the feedback, I'll contact you of the list as well. Nice
post btw http://blog.knuthaugen.no/2009/10/creating-craftsmen.html
-Mark