Kinda Scary

[bfla...@gmail.com]

Well, after 7 years of bitching, whining, carping, backbiting and
other instances of indigestion, the Repubs were unable to repeal
and replace. This another example of Republican inability. What,
indeed, has happened to the Grand Old Party?

What is really scary to me is the fact that after all the efforts
to deny health care to the citizens- even going so far as to eliminate
rather basic, every day procedures in an effort to save enough money
to be added for the rich- that was not enough for some of the
knuckle draggers. They wanted 2 pounds of flesh rather than the one
pound they were offered.

Scary!

[me]

One more sign of a scary political future. Resistance is deeper than many realize. Fewer people are willing to obey.

[Gary]

Knuckle draggers ? How much did the limp-wristed finger-suckers want ?

[islander]

We should not celebrate this defeat too much. The Republicans are
persistent if not very adept a governance. The battle over Obamacare
will now move to control of the budget. They will probably attempt
death by a thousand cuts.

[GLOBALIST]

Scary that law makers are trying very thoughtfully and methodically
to create a good bill
Unlike the Democrats who said "Oh go ahead and pass it and we'll
figure out later how it is suppose to work. And we will
punish you if you don't buy into" That is real American huh?

[bfla...@gmail.com]

On Saturday, March 25, 2017 at 12:57:17 PM UTC-7, GLOBALIST wrote:
> Scary that law makers are trying very thoughtfully and methodically
> to create a good bill

Globy, let's cut to the chase. Why don't <you> just tell us how to
craft a bill that everyone agrees to and gives health care to everyone
for practically nothing?

"Who knew health care could be so complicated?" ~ D Trump

[Z]

GLOBALIST wrote:
> Scary that law makers are trying very thoughtfully and methodically
> to create a good bill Unlike the Democrats who said "Oh go ahead and
> pass it and we'll figure out later how it is suppose to work. And we
> will punish you if you don't buy into" That is real American huh?

What happens if you don't pay your taxes? Is it real American, huh?

[billbowden]

<bfla...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:18f1fdac-bcac-468e...@googlegroups.com...

Maybe the risk can be spread around. Insurance companies that make too much
money can be assigned a greater number of high risk cases while giving some
relief to companies that are struggling. That would generate competition
among insurance companies to not show too high a profit. The penalty for
making too much money will be to accept more basket cases to bring down the
bottom line. Just my idea.

[rumpelstiltskin]

If we had national health of course, we'd be rid of the
very, very expensive and pointless insurance middlemen.
That's of course exactly why insurance companies and
the congresscritters who depend on them for campaign
money wage such an intense propaganda offensive
against national health. They're not looking out for us:
they're looking out for their own butts.

[bfla...@gmail.com]

On Saturday, March 25, 2017 at 8:59:31 PM UTC-7, rumpelstiltskin wrote:
> If we had national health of course, we'd be rid of the
> very, very expensive and pointless insurance middlemen.

Doesn't seem that the solution to the difficulties of health care
could be solved by elimination of the insurance companies need for
profit and spreading the risk 'monst everyone?

The problem is that the insurance companies are a very large portion
of the economy-16%?- and the government putting them out of the health
insurance business is a risky proposition.

[rumpelstiltskin]

On Sun, 26 Mar 2017 00:21:41 -0700 (PDT), bfla...@gmail.com wrote:

>On Saturday, March 25, 2017 at 8:59:31 PM UTC-7, rumpelstiltskin wrote:
>> If we had national health of course, we'd be rid of the
>> very, very expensive and pointless insurance middlemen.
>
>Doesn't seem that the solution to the difficulties of health care
>could be solved by elimination of the insurance companies need for
>profit and spreading the risk 'monst everyone?

Why would we need insurance companies if we had
national health? They're more parasitic and
manipulative than they're worth, by far, under the
existing system, and they'd have no redeeming
qualities whatsoever under national health.

>The problem is that the insurance companies are a very large portion
>of the economy-16%?- and the government putting them out of the health
>insurance business is a risky proposition.

If there were a thriving culture of basketweavers
who made baskets to be burnt as sacrifices to the
gods, and we decided not to burn baskets for the
gods anymore, that would put the basketweavers
out of business, and it certainly would disturb "the
economy" at least temporarily. But what good
were the basketweavers doing for anybody
anyway? Maybe the basketweavers can find
something more productive to do, but even if they
can't, what good did it do for us to be constantly
supplying them with materials to make their
baskets? It would be cheaper to put them all
on welfare and put the exorbitant-beyond-
imagination money we'd been handing them for
their basket business to better use - repairing
the national infrastructure for example.

[Lonesome Dove]

On Sun, 26 Mar 2017 06:19:22 -0700, rumpelstiltskin<x...@y.com> wrote:

>On Sun, 26 Mar 2017 00:21:41 -0700 (PDT), bfla...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>>On Saturday, March 25, 2017 at 8:59:31 PM UTC-7, rumpelstiltskin wrote:
>>> If we had national health of course, we'd be rid of the
>>> very, very expensive and pointless insurance middlemen.
>>
>>Doesn't seem that the solution to the difficulties of health care
>>could be solved by elimination of the insurance companies need for
>>profit and spreading the risk 'monst everyone?
>
>
> Why would we need insurance companies if we had
>national health? They're more parasitic and
>manipulative than they're worth, by far, under the
>existing system, and they'd have no redeeming
>qualities whatsoever under national health.
>

Maybe you should check as to how many people make a living working for
insurance companies and they see if you want to pay to support them.
You'd probably discover that it's cheaper to pay the insurance
premium.


Lonesome Dove

[Z]

Lonesome Dove wrote:

> Maybe you should check as to how many people make a living working
> for insurance companies and they see if you want to pay to support
> them. You'd probably discover that it's cheaper to pay the insurance
> premium.
>
>
> Lonesome Dove
>

It's cheaper to let them find a new job and not pay them a thing.

[rumpelstiltskin]

How many sacrificial basketweavers there are is a really,
really bad argument - a mindless argument in fact - for
continuing to support sacrificial basketweaving at enormous
cost to those of us not employed in sacrificial basketweaving.

[Emily]

On Sun, 26 Mar 2017 06:19:22 -0700, rumpelstiltskin<x...@y.com> wrote:

The thing that bothers me the most about health insurance companies is
what the CEOs make. I just did a web search for that info and found
this one. It isn't limited to insurance companies, but it's still
nauseating. It is almost two years old but if there's been any
change, I'd guess it was upward.

http://www.beckershospitalreview.com/compensation-issues/20-highest-paid-healthcare-ceos-in-2015.html
>

[islander]

That cannot possibly be right. Total spending on health in America is
17.5% including health insurance.
https://www.cms.gov/research-statistics-data-and-systems/statistics-trends-and-reports/nationalhealthexpenddata/nationalhealthaccountshistorical.html

[islander]

On 3/26/2017 6:19 AM, rumpelstiltskin wrote:
> Why would we need insurance companies if we had
> national health? They're more parasitic and
> manipulative than they're worth, by far, under the
> existing system, and they'd have no redeeming
> qualities whatsoever under national health.

We would not, of course! The nature of insurance companies is to drive
their competitors out of the market so that they can dominate the
customer rather than serve him.

You may have heard Republicans quoting Aetna CEO, Mark Bertolini say
that ObamaCare is in a death spiral. Makes for a nice sound bite! What
he didn't say and what Republicans didn't explain, was that Aetna had
attempted to merge with Humana but was denied by a federal judge. This
also blocked a merger between Anthem and Cigna. The primary argument
was that the merger would have eliminated competition for Medicare
Advantage between insurers in 21 states. But, it also would have
eliminated competition in the Obamacare Exchanges in 3 states.
Bertolini, in a fit of pique, then announced that it would withdraw from
most of the Exchanges in 2017, and Humana announced that they would
withdraw entirely.

This is how the insurance companies serve their customers! I guess that
the 15% profit allowed in Obamacare is just not enough for the greedy
bastards!

[rumpelstiltskin]

Every social system has its drawbacks, and one of the worst
for capitalism is that capitalism naturally promotes an unholy
alliance between wealthy capitalists and politicians who benefit
from their contributions and in return must give them indulgences.
That setup works against the welfare and prosperity of "the people"
from both directions, but it's hard to prevent and, once started,
hard to stop.




Again and again, [Adam} Smith warned of the collusive nature
of business interests, which may form cabals or monopolies,
fixing the highest price "which can be squeezed out of the
buyers".[84] Smith also warned that a business-dominated
political system would allow a conspiracy of businesses and
industry against consumers, with the former scheming to
influence politics and legislation. Smith states that the
interest of manufacturers and merchants "...in any particular
branch of trade or manufactures, is always in some respects
different from, and even opposite to, that of the public...The
proposal of any new law or regulation of commerce which
comes from this order, ought always to be listened to with
great precaution, and ought never be adopted till after
having been long and carefully examined, not only with the
most scrupulous, but with the most suspicious attention."
Thus Smith's chief worry seems to be when business is given
special protections or privileges from government; by
contrast, in the absence of such special political favours, he
believed that business activities were generally beneficial to
the whole society: ...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adam_Smith

[rumpelstiltskin]

[islander]

I thought that conservatives were in favor of "creative destruction."

[rumpelstiltskin]

I never heard that term before. I guess it's only applied
to destroying the feeble step toward national health that
"Obamacare" is, not to destroying the whole rotten system
of Medical Insurance companies in the USA.

Propaganda selectively applied. We're so manipulated
in the USA. When are we going to smarten up?

[billbowden]

"rumpelstiltskin" <x...@y.com> wrote in message
news:qleedcdotbcanptnt...@4ax.com...

So are the doctors and other health care workers. National health care would
allow the government to regulate costs which means everyone gets paid less.
How is some doctor who owes 200K in student loans supposed to pay that back
if he has to work for minimum wage? What about universities who make big
bucks on tution? Private school tution is about 50K a year. Those aren't
small potatoes. Who would want to go to medical school for 50K a year and
then make minimum wage? Maybe we should attack the universities and not the
insurance companies?

Here's a math problem. Medical school tution is about 50K a year for about
700 hours of instruction per year, which is about $70 an hour. So, if a
typical class-room size is say 15 students, that amounts to about $1000 an
hour per classroom. If the professor makes about $150 an hour, the
university is making $850 an hour per class-room. Maybe that's not enough,
I don't know the expenses. But it sure looks like a lot of money to me.
Maybe insurance companies should do some medical school training on the side
to improve the bottom line and reduce premiums?

[islander]

It is a term that conservatives use to explain how losing jobs in one
sector is compensated for (so they claim) by the creation of jobs in
another sector.
http://www.econlib.org/library/Enc/CreativeDestruction.html

[rumpelstiltskin]

Republicans seem to be really good at producing propaganda
that contains obvious flaws, but not obvious enough that they
can't sell it to a whole lot of people.

[rumpelstiltskin]

College shouldn't cost $200K. I don't think anybody has advocated
that doctor's work for minimum wage. It's a skilled and taxing
occupation - I wouldn't want to do it - so doctors deserve to be make
money, though not as exorbitantly as is the case in the USA IMV.
They do have to make enough to pay off their student loans though,
as long as we can't correct $200K college tuition at the same time.
Why does college cost so much these days? Are the professors
being paid as exorbitantly as doctors? Or is it CEO disease?

>
>Here's a math problem. Medical school tution is about 50K a year for about
>700 hours of instruction per year, which is about $70 an hour. So, if a
>typical class-room size is say 15 students, that amounts to about $1000 an
>hour per classroom. If the professor makes about $150 an hour, the
>university is making $850 an hour per class-room. Maybe that's not enough,
>I don't know the expenses. But it sure looks like a lot of money to me.
>Maybe insurance companies should do some medical school training on the side
>to improve the bottom line and reduce premiums?

As I and others have said, the USA is a kleptocracy these days.

[Emily]

On Sun, 26 Mar 2017 19:25:19 -0700, rumpelstiltskin<x...@y.com> wrote:

> College shouldn't cost $200K. I don't think anybody has advocated
>that doctor's work for minimum wage. It's a skilled and taxing
>occupation - I wouldn't want to do it - so doctors deserve to be make
>money, though not as exorbitantly as is the case in the USA IMV.
>They do have to make enough to pay off their student loans though,
>as long as we can't correct $200K college tuition at the same time.
>Why does college cost so much these days? Are the professors
>being paid as exorbitantly as doctors? Or is it CEO disease?

In Virginia, the top salaries for state employees are for college
presidents. The highest one is $844,245 for the president of
Christopher Newport University. That certainly can't compare with the
haul for heads of medical insurance companies but it still seems
disgustingly overpaid to me.

[me]

You describe government. Government = monopoly. Look around! People serve government because there is no competition. Look up the term 'crony capitalism'. Do a search on how government limits and competition and regulates against it. Why do you think lobbyists exist? Why do you suppose campaign finance exists? What do you suppose the Clinton Foundation specialized in? Yes, favors for money. Greasing the rentier machinery. Waste - Fraud - Abuse.
http://www.endit.info/Myth.shtml
http://www.endit.info/how.shtml

[Gary]

No wonder tuition is so damn high. Why in the world are all those people paid
so much ? I bet there are a lot of people who could do just as good a job for
a lot less.

http://data.richmond.com/salaries/2015/state/christopher-newport-university/paul-trible

[Emily]

Someone explained to me that it's because their main job is soliciting
contributions and that's not something everyone is good at. I don't
know why they should need contributions in addition to the exorbitant
rates they charge the students.
>
>http://data.richmond.com/salaries/2015/state/christopher-newport-university/paul-trible

[islander]

I think that I have mentioned here before that there are provisions in
trade bills that are supposed to compensate workers who are displaced,
either through training for another job or outright financial
compensation. Unfortunately, the money to do this is subject to the
budget, so it usually gets cut with only a token amount going to
actually solve the problem. It is definitely not a problem that the
silent hand of the market solves. Workers are abandoned like obsolete
pieces of equipment.

[rumpelstiltskin]

On Mon, 27 Mar 2017 07:56:12 -0700, islander <no...@priracy.com> wrote:
>On 3/26/2017 7:25 PM, rumpelstiltskin wrote:

<snip>

>> Republicans seem to be really good at producing propaganda
>> that contains obvious flaws, but not obvious enough that they
>> can't sell it to a whole lot of people.
>>
>I think that I have mentioned here before that there are provisions in
>trade bills that are supposed to compensate workers who are displaced,
>either through training for another job or outright financial
>compensation. Unfortunately, the money to do this is subject to the
>budget, so it usually gets cut with only a token amount going to
>actually solve the problem. It is definitely not a problem that the
>silent hand of the market solves. Workers are abandoned like obsolete
>pieces of equipment.

All too true.

[rumpelstiltskin]

When I left college, I had no debt at all. That was a state
school. When I was in high school, the high school "advisor"
suggested Ivy League colleges and I got angry, saying there
was no way I could afford going to any of those, even with
a scholarship.

One of my friends (still a friend) somewhat later played
chess at a chess club with a kid from a poor family that had
immigrated from the Azores. My friend said that he wasn't
usually willing to admit that anybody was smarter than
himself, but this kid was. When they discussed college,
my friend suggested Harvard. The kid said there was
no way he could afford that, because his family had no
money. My friend said "Harvard has money" and helped
the kid prepare and send in an application. Harvard
tested and accepted him, and when it found out his
financial situation it gave him a full scholarship. The kid's
parents were all over my friend, thanking him for
encouraging the kid to get an opportunity that they never
dreamt was possible.

[rumpelstiltskin]

On Mon, 27 Mar 2017 09:15:52 -0400, Emily <Em...@nospam.com> wrote:

Me too. I'd like for nobody to make more than,
say, $400,000 a year until working people at the
lowest levels earn enough to have a car and a TV
and computer, can take nice vacations, and are
able to provide their kids with a very good start in
life. I wouldn't begin to know how to implement
such a thing in the USA myself without running
into overwhelming opposition. The Scandinavian
countries seem to be doing a much better job at
spreading wealth around so that it doesn't almost
completely end up in a few clumps as it does in
the USA. Of course, the USA isn't even trying:
it doesn't have such an ideal even in principle.
The USA is only partway between saintly equity
and The Law of the Jungle.

People are greedy as a consequence of
Natural Selection. Greed is what primarily
motivates people, so we're not ever going to
have complete equity in a society that works
at all, in the world as SkyMonster made it.
It doesn't seem to me, though, that a society
inevitably has to gravitate toward such
extremes as are found in the USA, and much
worse in some other places such as India or
transient empires in Africa. Such extremes
are to the great detriment of poor people
because it takes the fruits of labour of an
enormous number of poor people to sustain
the lifestyle of just one super-rich person.
Once the fruits of labour are in the hands of
super-rich people, except for a trickle of
"philanthropy" those fruits are largely lost
to the public as a whole.

(Just in case anybody still thinks I feel
anything but outright hostility toward
theistic religion, I should point out that
I use "SkyMonster" only as a metaphor.)

[islander]

I'm not going to defend a $800K salary for a college president, but my
time at Stanford taught me a few things about the cost of running a
college. Stanford is a research university which basically means that
an important part of graduate education is participating in doing
research, at the PhD level in doing original research. This takes
building and maintaining research facilities, a very expensive prospect.
Building the physical facilities is usually accomplished with
donations from wealthy donors who get those facilities named after them.
Stanford has a team of people whose sole function is to track alumni
and to convince them to donate to their alma mater. Those donors rarely
pay for the maintenance and staffing of those facilities and nobody
wants to pay for overhead. One of the most serious problems that I
faced while at Stanford was finding the money to support the facility
where I worked. Then, there is the matter of covering the salary of
tenured faculty. I'm not a big fan of tenure, but understand the reason
to isolate faculty from the whims of sponsors. A university needs
enough money, usually in endowments, to survive the lean years when
support suffered the peaks and valleys of the economy. It was easy to
raise ~$20K which was what it cost to support a graduate student for a
year, but impossible to run a multi $M program by soliciting $20K at a
time. Needless to say, student tuition accounted for only a small
percentage of the cost of actually educating that student. In the case
of students in the Medical School, that support has to continue through
internship. Not easy to raise money to cover the costs, but the first
tier schools are best at not only raising that money, but also in
providing financial assistance to the students who qualify. My students
all had research assistance-ships, for example.

[billbowden]

"Emily" <Em...@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:it8idc5cviec4rp0n...@4ax.com...

It's the same for CEOs. If a CEO can increase profits by 1 billion, then
it's no big deal to pay him/her a couple million. The stockholders don't
want a cheap CEO making 100K while the company loses a billion. Simple math.

[rumpelstiltskin]

Donald Trump was a CEO and he made lots of money.
If stiffing people who do work for you, driving them
sometimes into bankruptcy, is an "effective CEO", then
Trump's your man.

[billbowden]

"rumpelstiltskin" <x...@y.com> wrote in message

news:r3ridcdm5drdhdp5i...@4ax.com...

I don't believe Trump ever stiffed anybody that didn't deserve to be
stiffed. If you have an example, post it.

.

[Emily]

On Mon, 27 Mar 2017 12:17:21 -0800, "billbowden"
<bpe...@bowdenshobbycircuits.info> wrote:


>> Donald Trump was a CEO and he made lots of money.
>> If stiffing people who do work for you, driving them
>> sometimes into bankruptcy, is an "effective CEO", then
>> Trump's your man.
>>
>>
>
>I don't believe Trump ever stiffed anybody that didn't deserve to be
>stiffed. If you have an example, post it.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/elections/2016/06/09/donald-trump-unpaid-bills-republican-president-laswuits/85297274/

[billbowden]

"islander" <no...@priracy.com> wrote in message
news:obbdsc$jt2$1...@dont-email.me...

Looks like the cost of attending Stanford is $69,109 a year as an
undergraduate. I can live on half that.

https://financialaid.stanford.edu/undergrad/budget/

Student Budget Budget Item 2017–2018 Academic Year
Tuition 48,987
Room and Board 15,112
Campus Health Service Fee 630
Books and Supplies 1,455
Personal Expenses 2,925
Travel Varies
Total $69,109

[Emily]

If medical schools have to pay interns, that's another thing in the
medical world that changed. Back when I worked in a hospital, they
were paid by the hospital -- and worked to death.

Here's an interesting table about the endowments of various colleges
and universities, in billions.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_colleges_and_universities_in_the_United_States_by_endowment

It seems to me a university could get through a bunch of hard times
with the kind of money they're sitting on.

[billbowden]

"Emily" <Em...@nospam.com> wrote in message

news:cauidchmtmir55aur...@4ax.com...

All those law suits are for unsatisfactory work.

"Let's say that they do a job that's not good, or a job that they didn't
finish, or a job that was way late. I'll deduct from their contract,
absolutely," Trump said. "That's what the country should be doing."

If you want to make a case against Trump, you need exact details of what
was required, what was delivered, and why Trump didn't pay the bill.

[bfla...@gmail.com]

On Monday, March 27, 2017 at 5:30:59 PM UTC-7, billbowden wrote:
> If you want to make a case against Trump, you need exact details of what
> was required, what was delivered, and why Trump didn't pay the bill.

Bill, Bill, Bill, not to worry. You are such a nice guy, no one here
will hold it against you that you voted for the Orange Man.

Now get on your horse and pay that illegal left turn fine!

[rumpelstiltskin]

On Mon, 27 Mar 2017 12:17:21 -0800, "billbowden"
<bpe...@bowdenshobbycircuits.info> wrote:

>

>"rumpelstiltskin" <x...@y.com> wrote in message

>> On Mon, 27 Mar 2017 10:53:05 -0800, "billbowden"

<snip>

>>>It's the same for CEOs. If a CEO can increase profits by 1 billion, then
>>>it's no big deal to pay him/her a couple million. The stockholders don't
>>>want a cheap CEO making 100K while the company loses a billion. Simple
>>>math
>>
>>
>> Donald Trump was a CEO and he made lots of money.
>> If stiffing people who do work for you, driving them
>> sometimes into bankruptcy, is an "effective CEO", then
>> Trump's your man.
>>
>>
>
>I don't believe Trump ever stiffed anybody that didn't deserve to be
>stiffed. If you have an example, post it.

I don't have to post it. He's been asked about it repeatedly
and has always replied in effect "Maybe I just didn't like the
job they did". That's not an excuse, because as Judge Judy
says, if you don't like the steak and send it back, then you're
entitled to a refund, but if you eat the steak, you have to pay
for it.

How many people do you know who have stiffed a person
after that person did work for them? I hope the answer is
"none".

[rumpelstiltskin]

On Mon, 27 Mar 2017 12:42:50 -0800, "billbowden"
<snip>

>Looks like the cost of attending Stanford is $69,109 a year as an
>undergraduate. I can live on half that.

Me too. I do live on less than half that, not counting
money I've given away, though I do have more money
than I need coming in, and I have the benefit of cheap
rent - criminally cheap for a 2-bedroom flat in San
Francisco. (I've been in the same flat more than 40
years, and we have rent-control where Landlords are
only allowed to raise the rent by, I think, the official
inflation rate, for a continuing tenancy.

>
>https://financialaid.stanford.edu/undergrad/budget/
>
> Student Budget Budget Item 2017–2018 Academic Year
> Tuition 48,987
> Room and Board 15,112
> Campus Health Service Fee 630
> Books and Supplies 1,455
> Personal Expenses 2,925
> Travel Varies
> Total $69,109

Too much for most people without going into debt.

[islander]

But, you don't have to pay tuition. Stanford has two tracks for
faculty, one for those who only teach and another for those who do
research. The teachers need to be supported as well as to pay for the
classrooms and labs, teaching assistants, and other overhead. But, the
bottom line is that getting an education at Stanford is expensive. They
do not lack for students, so they can afford to provide the best
facilities, staff and professors. And, there are plenty of applicants
who are wealthy enough to apply. I don't like it, but this is an
advantage that the wealthy can afford. Gifted students get scholarships
and the better universities are better at providing scholarships, often
covering all of the tuition.

To be honest, as an employee of Stanford, I was eligible for reciprocity
at any other university, up to the Stanford tuition. Using that I was
able to cover tuition for my youngest daughter at another school.
Definitely a perk!

[islander]

Getting a university to spend their endowment is very difficult. They
prefer to never touch the principal.

[bfla...@gmail.com]

On Monday, March 27, 2017 at 6:45:31 PM UTC-7, islander wrote:
> Getting a university to spend their endowment is very difficult. They
> prefer to never touch the principal.

As a side bar to that not touching the principal which is a good idea,
here the State owns land which they essentially rent out; the income
goes to education mostly.

Now there are a lot of Mexican Americans here and the knuckle draggers
in government don't like to spend money educating those brown people
especially if it involves raising taxes (Horrors!). So the brains the
Blue Hairs elect came up with a brilliant idea. Sell the land at
bargain basement prices and give it for education.

Talk about touching the principal!

[rumpelstiltskin]

Where's the moral justification for funding research via
money taken that students, or their parents, have to pay
to get the students an education?

[bfla...@gmail.com]

On Monday, March 27, 2017 at 10:24:24 PM UTC-7, rumpelstiltskin wrote:
> Where's the moral justification for funding research via
> money taken that students, or their parents, have to pay
> to get the students an education?

C'mon Rumpel, you know money is fungible!

[rumpelstiltskin]

Hmm, I've bought a few lottery tickets over the
years, but none of it has funged my way yet.

I don't think the kids who have $100,000 college
debts feel funged either, though they're only off
by two letters.

[islander]

Then there is Alaska where part of the profits from oil are given to the
people. What happens when the oil is gone?

[islander]

Money that students (or their parents) pay in tuition is not used to
support research. At the undergraduate level, tuition is used to pay
for the facilities, staff and professors that are needed to provide
education. At the graduate level, research largely supports students in
addition to the facilities, staff and professors who perform the
research. My experience is in the technical and scientific fields. It
may be different in the liberal arts.

[islander]

Henry Ford was a genius in manufacturing, but I have one major problem
with him. Manufacturing during the Civil War underwent a significant
change in the introduction of replaceable parts. Henry Ford carried
that principle to workers. He bragged that any worker on the line could
be replaced with just 30 minutes training. It was not until decades
later that more modern forms of management asserted that employees were
more valuable than that. The Japanese led the way in giving the
employees more voice in improving manufacturing including the
introduction of Quality Circles. Interestingly, in American automobile
manufacturing, one could get fired for stopping the line. Problems were
cleared up at the end (or were left for the customer to discover). In
Japan, any worker on the line can stop the line to address a problem at
the source.

Still, the idea of the disposable worker persists in America. Just
another replaceable part!

[wolfbat359]

And in Ten Years where do they get the money that the rent provided?

[wolfbat359]

And now Trump is reducing Medical Research to build the wall! Where is the true threat? Is it from illegal entries into the US or from reduced Medical Research or even Increased Offense Spending versus Medical Research?

http://enews.earthlink.net/article/top?guid=20170328/1d84a938-1879-42a2-8a91-70ad6009204b

The White House is calling for immediate budget cuts of $18 billion from programs like medical research, infrastructure and community development grants to help pay for the border wall that President Donald Trump repeatedly promised would be financed by Mexico.

Like President Donald Trump's 2018 budget, which was panned by both Democrats and Republicans earlier this month, the proposals have little chance to be enacted.

But they could create bad political optics for the struggling Trump White House, since the administration asked earlier for $3 billion to pay for the Trump's controversial U.S.-Mexico border wall and other immigration enforcement plans. During the campaign, Trump promised Mexico would pay for the wall.

Now, the White House wants the wall and Pentagon increases to be paid for using steep, immediate cuts to research into medical cures and funding for new roads and bridges here at home. ....

[rumpelstiltskin]

On Tue, 28 Mar 2017 07:28:24 -0700, islander <no...@priracy.com> wrote:
<snip>

>Money that students (or their parents) pay in tuition is not used to
>support research. At the undergraduate level, tuition is used to pay
>for the facilities, staff and professors that are needed to provide
>education. At the graduate level, research largely supports students in
>addition to the facilities, staff and professors who perform the
>research. My experience is in the technical and scientific fields. It
>may be different in the liberal arts.

There has to be some reason for the startling
expense of a college education these days.

In high school I had a class with only six kids in it,
but I don't think I ever had a class with that few kids
in college. I went to a state college because I
couldn't possibly afford anything else, and I still don't
see any justification for the phenomenal tuition at
some colleges.

It's a huge burden on kids to saddle them with
enormous debt for college that will take them
years to pay off. I just this year gave my son
enough money to finish paying off his college debt
from more than ten years ago. There has to be a
"better way". The current situation is ridiculous,
and IMO "abusive".

I seem to remember hearing that in some
European countries, perhaps Scandinavian, all
education is free, supported by public taxation
instead of that public taxation money going to
support military adventurism as in the USA.

[rumpelstiltskin]

A year or two ago, the Alaska state legislature tried to
commandeer that money from the oil companies instead
of distributing money among the people. They were
foiled by the outcry from the people, but they keep trying
to do that. My son was up in arms about it.

Did you know, BTW, that there's only one bridge across
the whole Yukon river in Alaska? (There are three bridges
across the Yukon in Yukon territory, Canada.)
http://www.summitpost.org/yukon-river/565142

My son and I went over that bridge on a trip where we
camped out next to a sign that read "Arctic Circle". It
was summertime and the view looked more like Blake's
"Englands green and pleasant land" than the frozen North.


And did those feet in ancient time,
Walk upon Englands mountains green:
And was the holy Lamb of God,
On Englands pleasant pastures seen!

And did the Countenance Divine,
Shine forth upon our clouded hills?
And was Jerusalem builded here,
Among these dark Satanic Mills?

Bring me my Bow of burning gold;
Bring me my Arrows of desire:
Bring me my Spear: O clouds unfold!
Bring me my Chariot of fire!

I will not cease from Mental Fight,
Nor shall my Sword sleep in my hand:
Till we have built Jerusalem,
In Englands green & pleasant Land.


Other than my son, who worked on the "North
Slope" for a couple of years, where the sun
doesn't come up at all for a couple of months in
the winter, I'm the only person I know who's
been above the Arctic Circle. Like most
far-north places, it's very depressing to be
there in winter when there's little, or no,
sunlight, and as a result there's a lot of
alcoholism.

[rumpelstiltskin]

On Tue, 28 Mar 2017 08:22:54 -0700, rumpelstiltskin<x...@y.com> wrote:
<snip>

> A year or two ago, the Alaska state legislature tried to
>commandeer that money from the oil companies instead
>of distributing money among the people. They were
>foiled by the outcry from the people, but they keep trying
>to do that. My son was up in arms about it.
>
> Did you know, BTW, that there's only one bridge across
>the whole Yukon river in Alaska? (There are three bridges
>across the Yukon in Yukon territory, Canada.)
>http://www.summitpost.org/yukon-river/565142

Here's a video of a trip across the bridge:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_1gck_mmSlI

[bfla...@gmail.com]

EXACTLY!!!!!!

[bfla...@gmail.com]

On Tuesday, March 28, 2017 at 7:47:40 AM UTC-7, islander wrote:
> Henry Ford was a genius in manufacturing, but I have one major problem
> with him. Manufacturing during the Civil War underwent a significant
> change in the introduction of replaceable parts. Henry Ford carried
> that principle to workers. He bragged that any worker on the line could
> be replaced with just 30 minutes training.

I seem to recall reading somewhere that Ford found that replacing and
training workers was so expensive that he raised the wage to $5 a day
to cut down on the turnover.

[billbowden]

"rumpelstiltskin" <x...@y.com> wrote in message

news:3pejdc9bo4ld124fk...@4ax.com...

I wouldn't want to know anybody who stiffed anyone. But I do know somebody
at the swap meet who sells old batteries that are totally dead. I used a
volt meter to test a few of her batteries and then reported to her that the
batteries were of no value and totally dead, and she shouldn't display
them for sale. She just looked at me with contempt and put the batteries
back on the blanket for sale hoping somebody else would buy her dead
batteries. What an inconsiderate bitch. .

Whenever I sell anything that I'm not sure works, I always tell the
customer to bring it back if it doesn't work. I don't have time to test
everything. Nothing has ever come back.

[islander]

I have not seen that, but it could be true.

[islander]

I strongly agree. Paying for a college education is the smartest
investment that we can make. At least Bernie proposed to make public
college tuition free. That doesn't solve the whole problem, but it
would help. Note that this is for public colleges and will not change
things for the private schools which will continue to charge what the
traffic will bear.

[billbowden]

"islander" <no...@priracy.com> wrote in message

news:obdrom$th8$1...@dont-email.me...

Nonsense. I think I told you last year that I could setup a school in a 3
bedroom house with 15 students in each bedroom and 3 professors making $100
an hour. Around here a 3 bedroom house is worth $3500 a month.or $78 a month
per student. If one professor makes $100 an hour for 15 students and 30
hours a week. it amounts to maybe $200 a week plus 20 for the house, or
maybe $220 per week, or maybe 8K a year per student tops. That's a lot less
than 69K to attend Stanford. But the way things are going, education will be
done online in the future. Why go to a classroom when you can do it online?
.

[rumpelstiltskin]

On Tue, 28 Mar 2017 13:28:14 -0800, "billbowden"
>"rumpelstiltskin"
<snip>

>> How many people do you know who have stiffed a person
>> after that person did work for them? I hope the answer is
>> "none".
>>
>>
>
>I wouldn't want to know anybody who stiffed anyone. But I do know somebody
>at the swap meet who sells old batteries that are totally dead. I used a
>volt meter to test a few of her batteries and then reported to her that the
>batteries were of no value and totally dead, and she shouldn't display
>them for sale. She just looked at me with contempt and put the batteries
>back on the blanket for sale hoping somebody else would buy her dead
>batteries. What an inconsiderate bitch. .
>
>Whenever I sell anything that I'm not sure works, I always tell the
>customer to bring it back if it doesn't work. I don't have time to test
>everything. Nothing has ever come back.

That's nice, but I don't think it has anything to do with what I
hear of Trump, that he's left individuals and small companies
twisting in the wind wherever he's walked, who did work for
him and then he didn't pay them for their labour or materials.
It seems to me that's just because he was pretty sure he
could get away with it since they wouldn't have the resources
to sue successfully against his lawyers, and would only hurt
themselves even more if they tried.

One thing's for sure, if Trump ever asks me to do something
and says he'll pay me after I've done it, I'll just laugh.

[Emily]

On Tue, 28 Mar 2017 18:39:59 -0700, islander <no...@priracy.com> wrote:

>On 3/28/2017 8:22 AM, rumpelstiltskin wrote:
>> On Tue, 28 Mar 2017 07:28:24 -0700, islander <no...@priracy.com> wrote:
>> <snip>
>>
>>
>>
>>> Money that students (or their parents) pay in tuition is not used to
>>> support research. At the undergraduate level, tuition is used to pay
>>> for the facilities, staff and professors that are needed to provide
>>> education. At the graduate level, research largely supports students in
>>> addition to the facilities, staff and professors who perform the
>>> research. My experience is in the technical and scientific fields. It
>>> may be different in the liberal arts.
>>
>>
>> There has to be some reason for the startling
>> expense of a college education these days.
>>
>> In high school I had a class with only six kids in it,
>> but I don't think I ever had a class with that few kids
>> in college. I went to a state college because I
>> couldn't possibly afford anything else, and I still don't
>> see any justification for the phenomenal tuition at
>> some colleges.

I went to a small college and none of my classes were very large.
There was one class - philosophy - that only had three people in it -
me and two guys who went on to be preachers. Maybe the professor was
an atheist because on one exam, I got a C and the guys got a D and an
F and boy, were their feathers ruffled.

>>
>> It's a huge burden on kids to saddle them with
>> enormous debt for college that will take them
>> years to pay off. I just this year gave my son
>> enough money to finish paying off his college debt
>> from more than ten years ago. There has to be a
>> "better way". The current situation is ridiculous,
>> and IMO "abusive".
>>
>> I seem to remember hearing that in some
>> European countries, perhaps Scandinavian, all
>> education is free, supported by public taxation
>> instead of that public taxation money going to
>> support military adventurism as in the USA.
>>
>I strongly agree. Paying for a college education is the smartest
>investment that we can make. At least Bernie proposed to make public
>college tuition free. That doesn't solve the whole problem, but it
>would help. Note that this is for public colleges and will not change
>things for the private schools which will continue to charge what the
>traffic will bear.

After being on Facebook for several years, I have to say that I think
a high school education would benefit a lot of people. Maybe they
learn something in high school these days but it apparently doesn't
include any writing skills like constructing a proper sentence, using
punctuation, correct spelling, or conveying a thought. It's
depressing.

[islander]

I've noticed that the National Assessment of Educational Progress (NAEP)
testing seems to have eliminated the test on Writing after 2007. They
still test for proficiency in Math, Science and Reading at the 4th, 8th
and have recently started testing at the 12th grade levels. Perhaps
they just gave up on Writing.

[islander]

I agree that on-line instruction is the way to go, but some of those
have recognized the value of face-to-face interaction with other
students. They have augmented the on-line work with local groups that
meet in their homes for discussion and interaction on some kinds of
projects. I suppose that could be done via Skype. A group that I am
associated with here recently did an on-line care giving course, but
supplemented it with a lab at the end to teach hands-on techniques.
Still, the biggest problem that we had was students who didn't have
enough bandwidth or computer skills. Some had to go to the local
library where computers and bandwidth are made available for free.

[islander]

Note that some of the large banks now refuse to loan him money.

[rumpelstiltskin]

I didn't know that! I'm not surprised, though. He
declares selective bankruptcy sometimes to wipe out
the debts he has in those areas, doesn't he?

[rumpelstiltskin]

It's a new age. Everybody types with their thumbs on
their video phones or tablets these days, so they use
lots of conventional (to them) abbreviations that are
unintelligible to normal - er, I mean "older" - people.
They really click away on those phones. A month
or two ago I was on the subway in a forward-facing
seat watching a girl ahead of me in an inward-facing
seat click away like a crazy chicken on her video phone
or whatever it was. It was impressive how fast she
could go with just her thumbs doing the typing.

[Emily]

It is impressive, and some people can do it and drive at the same
time. ;-(

I would probably get more familiar with my cell phone if I were away
from home and my computer more frequently, but about the only thing I
use it for is to make long distance calls since we no longer pay for
long distance on the home phone.

My husband has discovered a way to send text messages from his phone
to my computer and I can answer with the computer. This is very
helpful if I think of something I forgot to add to the grocery list
and he's in town.

I avoid text messaging on my phone as completely as possible after I
made this huge mistake -- when I was in the hospital, I sent my cousin
a message which began "I'm in the fucking hospital", but alas, instead
of my cousin I somehow sent it to the surgeon who did my mastectomy.
Obviously, using a cell phone is somehow beyond my capabilities.

[wizardr...@msn.com]

In the world of the acaedme, where the liberals have fully entrenched themselves, we find the "3 Rs" have been fully replaced by much more worthy studies, such as multiculturism, various victimoogies, social diversities, PC, etc. Pooh on the fallacies of mathematics: Who says that pies are square, when we all know that cakse are square and pies are round?. And they say that math is a rigid discipline. Darn fools.

[rumpelstiltskin]

*On Wed, 29 Mar 2017 12:27:33 -0400, Emily <Em...@nospam.com> wrote:

>On Wed, 29 Mar 2017 09:07:37 -0700, rumpelstiltskin<x...@y.com> wrote:
>
>>On Wed, 29 Mar 2017 09:40:03 -0400, Emily <Em...@nospam.com> wrote:
>
>>>After being on Facebook for several years, I have to say that I think
>>>a high school education would benefit a lot of people. Maybe they
>>>learn something in high school these days but it apparently doesn't
>>>include any writing skills like constructing a proper sentence, using
>>>punctuation, correct spelling, or conveying a thought. It's
>>>depressing.
>>
>>
>> It's a new age. Everybody types with their thumbs on
>>their video phones or tablets these days, so they use
>>lots of conventional (to them) abbreviations that are
>>unintelligible to normal - er, I mean "older" - people.
>>They really click away on those phones. A month
>>or two ago I was on the subway in a forward-facing
>>seat watching a girl ahead of me in an inward-facing
>>seat click away like a crazy chicken on her video phone
>>or whatever it was. It was impressive how fast she
>>could go with just her thumbs doing the typing.
>
>It is impressive, and some people can do it and drive at the same
>time. ;-(

The unsmily-face is appropriate, because I wouldn't want
to be driving within hitting range of anybody who was doing
that.

>
>I would probably get more familiar with my cell phone if I were away
>from home and my computer more frequently, but about the only thing I
>use it for is to make long distance calls since we no longer pay for
>long distance on the home phone.

I don't even WANT to understand the features on advanced
phones - just ask my son and he'll let you know the truth of
that in no uncertain terms. Before I took the current AT&T
deal, or rather the deal that I seem to be slammed with
instead of the one I was promised, I didn't have long distance
either, but I do have a number I can call for which I paid $20
or so five or ten years ago, of which more than half the
minutes I bought for that $20 are still there. To my
displeasure though, I discovered the "deal" I got from AT&T
did not include the same telephone service I already had,
but one that had "free" long distance. It's not "free" to me
though, because there's $5 a month local tax for access to
Long Distance. The slammed package is still cheaper than
the separate internet and telephone I had before, but the
fact that long distance is included reduces its value by $5 a
month. I only make one or two long distance calls a month,
so it sure isn't worth $5 a month to me not to have to dial
the local service before dialing the long distance number
I want.

Even if I got a cell phone, I wouldn't want to be schlepping
it around with me all the time, and it would be a royal pain
to have to keep charging it up every day. I carry my wallet
in one side pocket of my jeans, and glasses, change, and
keys in the other side pocket. I don't want anything else in
those pockets, and I don't want anything but tissues and
perhaps the local free newspaper that has Ken-Ken and
Sudoku in my back pockets. Having a wallet in one's
back pocket is an invitation to pickpockets. I don't think
there are many pickpockets in San Francisco, but there
were two or three along every short walk in Barcelona,
and my Swiss friend pointed from the stopped train (in
Switzerland or France or Germany) a lady he felt must
be a pickpocket. I watched her and came to the same
conclusion myself. She didn't pick any pockets while we
were watching, but she was obviously on the lookout for
the opportunity, and she obviously knew we were
watching and didn't like it.

>
>My husband has discovered a way to send text messages from his phone
>to my computer and I can answer with the computer. This is very
>helpful if I think of something I forgot to add to the grocery list
>and he's in town.
>
>I avoid text messaging on my phone as completely as possible after I
>made this huge mistake -- when I was in the hospital, I sent my cousin
>a message which began "I'm in the fucking hospital", but alas, instead
>of my cousin I somehow sent it to the surgeon who did my mastectomy.
>Obviously, using a cell phone is somehow beyond my capabilities.

Mine too. It might be possible to master a cell phone if I
focussed on it, but my sub-brain would be so indignant at
the imposition of being expected to master such a piece of
infernal gimcrackery that it would block my brain from
being able accomplish the task successfully, and just flip on
my brain's kvetch-switch instead. That's another thing my
son could confirm, adding a few juicy comments of his own
about it. As he said to me once, "Anything you don't want
to do, you CAN'T do!" That's why Yosemite Sam is one
of my favourite Loony Tunes characters - I feel a bond:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wWYFxekoAsM

[billbowden]

<bfla...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:0b2cff5d-0b55-45ea...@googlegroups.com...
> On Monday, March 27, 2017 at 5:30:59 PM UTC-7, billbowden wrote:
>> If you want to make a case against Trump, you need exact details of what
>> was required, what was delivered, and why Trump didn't pay the bill.
>
> Bill, Bill, Bill, not to worry. You are such a nice guy, no one here
> will hold it against you that you voted for the Orange Man.
>
> Now get on your horse and pay that illegal left turn fine!

I'm getting better at spotting no left turn signs. I was attending funeral
services Tuesday and when I left there was a no left turn sign on the open
gate. You had to look left and study the gate to see it. If they shut the
gate, it would read no left turn when trying to come in from the street. But
nobody would want to come in when the gate was closed, so it doesn't matter
if the sign says no left turn. You can't do that..Anyway, I don't take any
chances anymore turning left and always turn right. Same way as I vote,
'Right turn only'
.

[bfla...@gmail.com]

On Wednesday, March 29, 2017 at 9:21:50 PM UTC-7, billbowden wrote:

> I'm getting better at spotting no left turn signs.

I am reminded that there is a no left turn sign exiting the
local Post Office here. The sign is on government property so
I wonder if it is legal.

Anyway the exit empties onto a busy street and there are damn
fools who blatantly ignore the sign and attempt to make the turn which
pisses me off immensely.

On the other hand when I must go left out of the parking lot, It
is quite a trip to go around the block using all right turns so
I make that left turn if the traffic permits.

That's the kind of guy I am.

[islander]

It is a bit more complicated than that. He seems to have organized his
business relationships in a way that his business partners and investors
take the brunt of losses in bankruptcy while he walks away relatively
unscathed.

There is an old saying that if you owe the banks a little money, they
own you whereas if you owe the banks a lot, you own them. In the last
decade, Trump Properties declared bankruptcy four times and each time
the banks gave him more money in the futile hope that he could recover.
It appears that they have learned their lesson.

Trump has evidently become dependent upon those who will still loan him
money, Deutche Bank, Bank of Cyprus and some Chinese investors. The
result is that no one knows for sure who he owes money to or what his
future obligations are. Much of this would be cleared up if he would
release his tax returns, but he has evidently conned the American people
into believing that he is above all that. We don't know how long he is
going to be able to avoid disclosure of his financial entanglements,
especially those with the Russian oligarchs.

[rumpelstiltskin]

... and this is our president.

[billbowden]

"rumpelstiltskin" <x...@y.com> wrote in message

news:5gaqdcd1a3ml5l0ha...@4ax.com...

Well, he did release his 2005 tax return where he paid 38 million. The tax
return is 22 years old so it's not the current situation. Even so, the
government raked in 38 million which is enough to fund some silly program.

[billbowden]

<bfla...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:f7b38e8c-6d25-4f82...@googlegroups.com...

I remember years ago, I was walking along a street at 2AM and there was
nobody around. except a cop that I didn't notice. The light was red and
nobody was in sight. So, I walked across the street against the red light
and the cop gave me a ticket for jay walking. I guess he made most of his
quota in the dead of night. Another time, I got stopped for not wearing a
seat belt. It was a motorcycle cop and he asked me to drive ahead a
few.driveways and turn into a donut shop parking lot. I guess he wanted to
give me a ticket and get a donut at the same time. It was a cheap ticket at
only $22. But then I got another one and the cop saw me without the belt and
knew I was turning left at the light. So he passed me up and turned left and
waited for me at the corner where I was turning left. I saw him and knew
what he was up to, and put on my seatbelt but it was too late. When he came
up to my window he said: "I stopped you because you were not wearing a seat
belt" I had a seat belt on but he saw me not wearing it earlier and so I
got a ticket.

[rumpelstiltskin]

San Francisco cops apparently ignore jaywalking, or I'd have a
thousand tickets. I don't just jaywalk, I cassowary-walk routinely.
Drivers don't honk at me though, because I make sure it's safe
before I cross. The walk-light patterns must have been designed
by bureaucrats, because they make no sense.

[rumpelstiltskin]

On Thu, 30 Mar 2017 17:52:30 -0800, "billbowden"

>"rumpelstiltskin" <x...@y.com> wrote in message

>> On Thu, 30 Mar 2017 08:36:43 -0700, islander <no...@priracy.com> wrote:

<snip>

>>>There is an old saying that if you owe the banks a little money, they
>>>own you whereas if you owe the banks a lot, you own them. In the last
>>>decade, Trump Properties declared bankruptcy four times and each time
>>>the banks gave him more money in the futile hope that he could recover.
>>>It appears that they have learned their lesson.
>>>
>>>Trump has evidently become dependent upon those who will still loan him
>>>money, Deutche Bank, Bank of Cyprus and some Chinese investors. The
>>>result is that no one knows for sure who he owes money to or what his
>>>future obligations are. Much of this would be cleared up if he would
>>>release his tax returns, but he has evidently conned the American people
>>>into believing that he is above all that. We don't know how long he is
>>>going to be able to avoid disclosure of his financial entanglements,
>>>especially those with the Russian oligarchs.
>>>
>>
>> ... and this is our president.
>>
>
>Well, he did release his 2005 tax return where he paid 38 million. The tax
>return is 22 years old so it's not the current situation. Even so, the
>government raked in 38 million which is enough to fund some silly program.

I'm definitely not convinced he pays his taxes routinely.
All rich people wangle taxes, but I get the strong feeling
that Trump is particularly egregious. The fact that he
released taxes for just one year, 2005, only serves to
amplify my suspicions.

Warren Buffet noted that his secretary pays a higher
tax rate than he does. He's honest about that, and
certainly if I were rich and could afford big lawyers,
I'd "cheat" as much as I could too. That doesn't
make it "right" though. It means we have an
incredibly lousy tax system, which is not going to get
fixed because the people who control it are the
people who profit from its lousiness.