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AD 536: The year that winter never ended
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SolomonW
Feb 9, 2016, 6:58:51 AM2/9/16
to
In 536 CE the first of three massive volcanic eruptions ushered in a mini
ice age. It coincided with an epidemic of the plague, the decline of the
eastern Roman Empire, and sweeping upheavals across Eurasia. The writer
then claims that it was cause of the demise of what remained of the Roman
empire, contributed to the movement of plague-bearing rodents caused the
fall of the eastern Türk empire and the Northern Wei and Sui dynasties in
China.
Since the Sui dynasties lasted much longer, I am sure how they get into
this list but anyway here is the article.
https://www.newscientist.com/article/2076713-125-year-mini-ice-age-linked-to-the-plague-and-fall-of-empires/
ice age. It coincided with an epidemic of the plague, the decline of the
eastern Roman Empire, and sweeping upheavals across Eurasia. The writer
then claims that it was cause of the demise of what remained of the Roman
empire, contributed to the movement of plague-bearing rodents caused the
fall of the eastern Türk empire and the Northern Wei and Sui dynasties in
China.
Since the Sui dynasties lasted much longer, I am sure how they get into
this list but anyway here is the article.
https://www.newscientist.com/article/2076713-125-year-mini-ice-age-linked-to-the-plague-and-fall-of-empires/
AlexMilman
Feb 9, 2016, 1:13:23 PM2/9/16
to
On Tuesday, February 9, 2016 at 6:58:51 AM UTC-5, SolomonW wrote:
> In 536 CE the first of three massive volcanic eruptions ushered in a mini
> ice age. It coincided with an epidemic of the plague, the decline of the
> eastern Roman Empire, and sweeping upheavals across Eurasia. The writer
> then claims that it was cause of the demise of what remained of the Roman
> empire, contributed to the movement of plague-bearing rodents caused the
> fall of the eastern Türk empire and the Northern Wei and Sui dynasties in
> China.
>
> Since the Sui dynasties lasted much longer, I am sure how they get into
> this list but anyway here is the article.
>
From the article to which this article references:
> In 536 CE the first of three massive volcanic eruptions ushered in a mini
> ice age. It coincided with an epidemic of the plague, the decline of the
> eastern Roman Empire, and sweeping upheavals across Eurasia. The writer
> then claims that it was cause of the demise of what remained of the Roman
> empire, contributed to the movement of plague-bearing rodents caused the
> fall of the eastern Türk empire and the Northern Wei and Sui dynasties in
> China.
>
> Since the Sui dynasties lasted much longer, I am sure how they get into
> this list but anyway here is the article.
>
"After a successful campaign against the North African Vandal Kingdom in the early 530s, Justinian dispatches his army to retake Italy.
Yet as Procopius records, something odd then happened. The sun dimmed, and the dimness lasted for more than a year. There were frosts and snows in the middle of summer - the winter never really ended. From Italy to Ireland, China to Central America, the year 536 was the beginning of a decade-long cold snap beset by turmoil."
It is anything but clear how and if this had any noticeable impact on
fighting in Italy: Belisarius with a rather small army of 7.5K invaded
Sicily in 535 and then advanced into Italy capturing Rome on 9 December 536
after which he was besieged by the Ostrogoths from February 537 to March 538.
It does not look like the volcanic eruption of 540 had any noticeable
impact on the military activities either because after campaigning in
Lombardy in 539 Belisarius took Ravenna in 540 and then went to fight the
Sassanids who (probably being unaware of the climate change) successfully
invaded Roman territory in 540. The fighting was, indeed, interrupted by
a plague of 543 (no volcano eruption that year) but then continued until
562 while fighting in Italy resumed in 541 and continued until 554.
Small wonder that the Eastern Roman Empire had been exhausted by Justinian's
ambitious foreign policy and the wars that continued practically without
an interruption for approximately 40 years. Can't tell if the volcano
eruptions had been relevant for Italy but approximately 20 years of fighting
on its territory definitely were especially taking into an account Totila's
policy of destructing the cities (and existing water supply systems, which
started even before him). Look at what happened to Germany in XVII without
any volcanos, earthquakes or tsunamis being involved.
Regarding the "winners", migration of the Germanic and non-Germanic nations
started before these volcano eruptions and the Langobards were not the 1st or
the last wave and it is absolutely unclear if they were successful due to any
volcanos and not just because Italy was practically undefended by the time of
their invasion (which happened two decades after these eruptions. Not sure
why would not they suffer from this alleged colder climate: "average summer temperatures would have been roughly 2 °C below those from 1961 to 1990, the standard reference period for studies of this kind." IMHO, nobody would even
notice difference in 2 degree C without special equipment. Another alleged
winner were "the early Slavic languages, which seemed to have spread across most of continental Europe at this time from an unknown homeland." Probably
they were a by-product of the fast evolution of the invading rodents? (Just
trying to be helpful). Judging by the same Procopius authors mentioned as an
author of the doom & gloom, the Slavs already were around before all these
volcanos started erupting and their migrations were a part of a broader Great
Migration that started around IV century.
The early Islamic conquests started much later, in mid-VII century so it is
not clear how and if they are connected to the events.
As for the Eastern Turk "empire", it seems (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qaghans_of_the_Turkic_khaganates) that it was
established in the late V and still alive and kicking in VII century which
make all these volcano eruptions seemingly irrelevant. Probably Yusuf can
clarify situation with this specific subject.
A separate question is a link between volcano eruptions and invasions of the
rodents. Are there any reasons to link the Black Death of 1348-49 to any
earthquake in China/Mongolia? The same for the Great Plague of London (1665 -
1666).
Kenneth Young
Feb 9, 2016, 1:32:20 PM2/9/16
to
In article <80823a5e-d914-413a...@googlegroups.com>,
Plague became endemic in England after the Black Death arrived. A harder
question is why 1666 was the last big outbreak. Smallpox remained a big
killer until Jenner and Typhoid and other waterborne diseases were a
major problem until the 19th century. Medieval sanitation collapsed under
population pressure and was not replaced until the Victorian era.
Plague became endemic in England after the Black Death arrived. A harder
question is why 1666 was the last big outbreak. Smallpox remained a big
killer until Jenner and Typhoid and other waterborne diseases were a
major problem until the 19th century. Medieval sanitation collapsed under
population pressure and was not replaced until the Victorian era.
AlexMilman
Feb 9, 2016, 1:41:41 PM2/9/16
to
On Tuesday, February 9, 2016 at 1:32:20 PM UTC-5, Kenneth Young wrote:
> In article <80823a5e-d914-413a...@googlegroups.com>,
> alexm...@msn.com (AlexMilman) wrote:
>
> > The same for the Great Plague of London (1665 -
> > 1666).
>
> Plague became endemic in England after the Black Death arrived.
You missed the point: both were caused by the rodents and the article
> In article <80823a5e-d914-413a...@googlegroups.com>,
> alexm...@msn.com (AlexMilman) wrote:
>
> > The same for the Great Plague of London (1665 -
> > 1666).
>
> Plague became endemic in England after the Black Death arrived.
implies that there was a direct link between invasion of these rodents
in VI century and the volcano eruptions. AFAIK, none of the outbreaks
I mentioned was linked to any volcanic activity (and to the best of my
knowledge there are not too many active volcanos on London's territory)
so the horrors list produced by the authors seems unconvincing.
Paul J Gans
Feb 9, 2016, 9:21:53 PM2/9/16
to
SolomonW <Solo...@citi.com> wrote:
>In 536 CE the first of three massive volcanic eruptions ushered in a mini
>ice age. It coincided with an epidemic of the plague, the decline of the
>eastern Roman Empire, and sweeping upheavals across Eurasia. The writer
>then claims that it was cause of the demise of what remained of the Roman
>empire, contributed to the movement of plague-bearing rodents caused the
>fall of the eastern T?rk empire and the Northern Wei and Sui dynasties in
>In 536 CE the first of three massive volcanic eruptions ushered in a mini
>ice age. It coincided with an epidemic of the plague, the decline of the
>eastern Roman Empire, and sweeping upheavals across Eurasia. The writer
>then claims that it was cause of the demise of what remained of the Roman
>empire, contributed to the movement of plague-bearing rodents caused the
>China.
>Since the Sui dynasties lasted much longer, I am sure how they get into
>this list but anyway here is the article.
>https://www.newscientist.com/article/2076713-125-year-mini-ice-age-linked-to-the-plague-and-fall-of-empires/
The whole problem with this sort of thing is that the scientists
>Since the Sui dynasties lasted much longer, I am sure how they get into
>this list but anyway here is the article.
>https://www.newscientist.com/article/2076713-125-year-mini-ice-age-linked-to-the-plague-and-fall-of-empires/
who can deal with climate, evidence of plagues, and the details of
weather in particular locations are frequently totally ignorant of
history, and vice versa.
Since we all can argue that the Roman Empire held on somehow until
the 15th century AD, 536 AD would seem to be a bit early, right?
--
--- Paul J. Gans
Yusuf B Gursey
Feb 9, 2016, 10:04:01 PM2/9/16
to
On Tuesday, February 9, 2016 at 1:58:51 PM UTC+2, SolomonW wrote:
> In 536 CE the first of three massive volcanic eruptions ushered in a mini
> ice age. It coincided with an epidemic of the plague, the decline of the
> eastern Roman Empire, and sweeping upheavals across Eurasia. The writer
> then claims that it was cause of the demise of what remained of the Roman
> empire, contributed to the movement of plague-bearing rodents caused the
> fall of the eastern Türk empire and the Northern Wei and Sui dynasties in
> China.
>
> Since the Sui dynasties lasted much longer, I am sure how they get into
> this list but anyway here is the article.
These may have contributed to the demise South Arabian civilization,
> In 536 CE the first of three massive volcanic eruptions ushered in a mini
> ice age. It coincided with an epidemic of the plague, the decline of the
> eastern Roman Empire, and sweeping upheavals across Eurasia. The writer
> then claims that it was cause of the demise of what remained of the Roman
> empire, contributed to the movement of plague-bearing rodents caused the
> fall of the eastern Türk empire and the Northern Wei and Sui dynasties in
> China.
>
> Since the Sui dynasties lasted much longer, I am sure how they get into
> this list but anyway here is the article.
plague for one thing, possible climactic effects (there was a plague
in the 550's in Yemen and the Marib dam collapses around this time,
possibly by a climactic effect). This also benefited Central Arabia
by leaving a power vaccum tehre that was filled by Muhammad in Medina
and Mecca.
>
>
>
> https://www.newscientist.com/article/2076713-125-year-mini-ice-age-linked-to-the-plague-and-fall-of-empires/
Tiglath
Feb 9, 2016, 10:25:30 PM2/9/16
to
AlexMilman
Feb 10, 2016, 10:05:12 AM2/10/16
to
On Tuesday, February 9, 2016 at 9:21:53 PM UTC-5, Paul J Gans wrote:
> SolomonW <Solo...@citi.com> wrote:
> >In 536 CE the first of three massive volcanic eruptions ushered in a mini
> >ice age. It coincided with an epidemic of the plague, the decline of the
> >eastern Roman Empire, and sweeping upheavals across Eurasia. The writer
> >then claims that it was cause of the demise of what remained of the Roman
> >empire, contributed to the movement of plague-bearing rodents caused the
> >fall of the eastern T?rk empire and the Northern Wei and Sui dynasties in
> >China.
>
> >Since the Sui dynasties lasted much longer, I am sure how they get into
> >this list but anyway here is the article.
>
>
>
> >https://www.newscientist.com/article/2076713-125-year-mini-ice-age-linked-to-the-plague-and-fall-of-empires/
>
> The whole problem with this sort of thing is that the scientists
> who can deal with climate, evidence of plagues, and the details of
> weather in particular locations are frequently totally ignorant of
> history, and vice versa.
The same goes for those from even more 'remote' areas of science, like
> >In 536 CE the first of three massive volcanic eruptions ushered in a mini
> >ice age. It coincided with an epidemic of the plague, the decline of the
> >eastern Roman Empire, and sweeping upheavals across Eurasia. The writer
> >then claims that it was cause of the demise of what remained of the Roman
> >empire, contributed to the movement of plague-bearing rodents caused the
> >fall of the eastern T?rk empire and the Northern Wei and Sui dynasties in
> >China.
>
> >Since the Sui dynasties lasted much longer, I am sure how they get into
> >this list but anyway here is the article.
>
>
>
> >https://www.newscientist.com/article/2076713-125-year-mini-ice-age-linked-to-the-plague-and-fall-of-empires/
>
> The whole problem with this sort of thing is that the scientists
> who can deal with climate, evidence of plagues, and the details of
> weather in particular locations are frequently totally ignorant of
> history, and vice versa.
mathematics like Fomenko & Co who were (presumably) using statistical
methods to come with a "New chronology". I read one of their endless books
and must say that a general cultural ignorance is extremely conductive to
a ..er.. "creativity". :-)
>
> Since we all can argue that the Roman Empire held on somehow until
> the 15th century AD, 536 AD would seem to be a bit early, right?
AlexMilman
Feb 10, 2016, 10:07:54 AM2/10/16
to
an illustration to this article? It looks vaguely familiar but I can't recall
the name (my strong suspicion that it has very little to do with the volcano
eruptions listed in the article).
Brian M. Scott
Feb 10, 2016, 11:05:10 AM2/10/16
to
On Wed, 10 Feb 2016 07:05:10 -0800 (PST), AlexMilman
<alexm...@msn.com> wrote
in<news:92e47d50-1918-43ba...@googlegroups.com>
in soc.history.medieval:
[...]
> The same goes for those from even more 'remote' areas of
> science, like mathematics like Fomenko & Co who were
> (presumably) using statistical methods to come with a
> "New chronology". I read one of their endless books and
> must say that a general cultural ignorance is extremely
> conductive to a ..er.. "creativity". :-)
You have my sympathy: I read one of Heribert Illig’s books.
[...]
Brian
--
It was the neap tide, when the baga venture out of their
holes to root for sandtatties. The waves whispered
rhythmically over the packed sand: haggisss, haggisss,
haggisss.
<alexm...@msn.com> wrote
in<news:92e47d50-1918-43ba...@googlegroups.com>
in soc.history.medieval:
[...]
> The same goes for those from even more 'remote' areas of
> science, like mathematics like Fomenko & Co who were
> (presumably) using statistical methods to come with a
> "New chronology". I read one of their endless books and
> must say that a general cultural ignorance is extremely
> conductive to a ..er.. "creativity". :-)
[...]
Brian
--
It was the neap tide, when the baga venture out of their
holes to root for sandtatties. The waves whispered
rhythmically over the packed sand: haggisss, haggisss,
haggisss.
AlexMilman
Feb 10, 2016, 2:13:27 PM2/10/16
to
On Wednesday, February 10, 2016 at 11:05:10 AM UTC-5, Brian M. Scott wrote:
> On Wed, 10 Feb 2016 07:05:10 -0800 (PST), AlexMilman
> <alexm...@msn.com> wrote
> in<news:92e47d50-1918-43ba...@googlegroups.com>
> in soc.history.medieval:
>
> [...]
>
> > The same goes for those from even more 'remote' areas of
> > science, like mathematics like Fomenko & Co who were
> > (presumably) using statistical methods to come with a
> > "New chronology". I read one of their endless books and
> > must say that a general cultural ignorance is extremely
> > conductive to a ..er.. "creativity". :-)
>
> You have my sympathy: I read one of Heribert Illig's books.
>
> [...]
>
Judging by Wiki, he and Fomenko are birds of the feather.
> On Wed, 10 Feb 2016 07:05:10 -0800 (PST), AlexMilman
> <alexm...@msn.com> wrote
> in<news:92e47d50-1918-43ba...@googlegroups.com>
> in soc.history.medieval:
>
> [...]
>
> > The same goes for those from even more 'remote' areas of
> > science, like mathematics like Fomenko & Co who were
> > (presumably) using statistical methods to come with a
> > "New chronology". I read one of their endless books and
> > must say that a general cultural ignorance is extremely
> > conductive to a ..er.. "creativity". :-)
>
> You have my sympathy: I read one of Heribert Illig's books.
>
> [...]
>
Actually, I rather enjoyed F's book that I managed to read (he has a
full s--tload of them) because it is completely bizarre with the "facts"
being adjusted to his theory: did not know that either Madrid or Ankara
qualified as the major "Medieval capitals" or that river Don in Scotland
named after the Russian one, etc. An idea of "unification" of the numerous
historic personages is also quite "interesting" one. Don't remember a precise
breakdown but let's say, Alexander the Great, Genghis and Alexander Nevsky
being the same personage. There would always be a Russian component because
everything came from Russia and the whole idea behind this dastardly plot
(a traditional time line) was an intention of the Jesuits and Romanov
dynasty to distort Russian history and to diminish its historic role: until
<I did not get what exactly>, the known world had been ruled from the Russian
city of Vladimir which clearly follows from its name ("Owner of the world")
and coat of arms, a lion, which was copied by the numerous vassal states
including England, Sweden, Denmark, etc. You probably got an idea, especially
if you'll keep in mind that author's general knowledge of history is,
optimistically, a tiny bit above one of a school graduate.
:-)
a425couple
Feb 10, 2016, 2:39:15 PM2/10/16
to
"SolomonW" <Solo...@citi.com> wrote in message ...
> https://www.newscientist.com/article/2076713-125-year-mini-ice-age-linked-to-the-plague-and-fall-of-empires/
http://www.earthmagazine.org/article/aag-eruption-el-salvadors-ilopango-explains-ad-536-cooling
"AAG: Eruption of El Salvador's Ilopango explains A.D. 536 cooling---
New research on the extent and the timing of the eruption now places the
eruption --- previously thought to have occurred three centuries earlier ---
at the right time and place. The massive Plinian-type event with pyroclastic
flows would have instantly killed up to 100,000 people, displaced up to
400,000 more and filled the skies with ash and dust for more than a year.
The new findings would make it the second-largest volcanic eruption in the
last 200,000 years. "This event was much bigger than we ever thought," Dull
said.
Such an eruption would explain the episode in Mayan history known as the
Classic Period Hiatus, when the Maya stopped building stelae, decorative
stone columns erected to mark events, Dull said. It would also finally
explain the global cooling of A.D. 535-536, an 18-month period of cloudy
skies, crop failures and famines that was described in both Roman and
Chinese historical accounts. "So it's very well established this event took
place," Dull said. "The question has been the cause."
The cooling, known as the A.D. 536 event, had been attributed to a number of
sources over the years including a bolide impact--"
> In 536 CE the first of three massive volcanic eruptions ushered in a mini
> ice age. ---
> https://www.newscientist.com/article/2076713-125-year-mini-ice-age-linked-to-the-plague-and-fall-of-empires/
http://www.earthmagazine.org/article/aag-eruption-el-salvadors-ilopango-explains-ad-536-cooling
"AAG: Eruption of El Salvador's Ilopango explains A.D. 536 cooling---
New research on the extent and the timing of the eruption now places the
eruption --- previously thought to have occurred three centuries earlier ---
at the right time and place. The massive Plinian-type event with pyroclastic
flows would have instantly killed up to 100,000 people, displaced up to
400,000 more and filled the skies with ash and dust for more than a year.
The new findings would make it the second-largest volcanic eruption in the
last 200,000 years. "This event was much bigger than we ever thought," Dull
said.
Such an eruption would explain the episode in Mayan history known as the
Classic Period Hiatus, when the Maya stopped building stelae, decorative
stone columns erected to mark events, Dull said. It would also finally
explain the global cooling of A.D. 535-536, an 18-month period of cloudy
skies, crop failures and famines that was described in both Roman and
Chinese historical accounts. "So it's very well established this event took
place," Dull said. "The question has been the cause."
The cooling, known as the A.D. 536 event, had been attributed to a number of
sources over the years including a bolide impact--"
Brian M. Scott
Feb 10, 2016, 3:41:59 PM2/10/16
to
On Wed, 10 Feb 2016 11:13:25 -0800 (PST), AlexMilman
<alexm...@msn.com> wrote
in<news:fff12cce-c7cb-47dc...@googlegroups.com>
in soc.history.medieval:
> On Wednesday, February 10, 2016 at 11:05:10 AM UTC-5,
> Brian M. Scott wrote:
>> On Wed, 10 Feb 2016 07:05:10 -0800 (PST), AlexMilman
>> <alexm...@msn.com> wrote
>> in<news:92e47d50-1918-43ba...@googlegroups.com>
>> in soc.history.medieval:
>> [...]
>>> The same goes for those from even more 'remote' areas
>>> of science, like mathematics like Fomenko & Co who
>>> were (presumably) using statistical methods to come
>>> with a "New chronology". I read one of their endless
>>> books and must say that a general cultural ignorance
>>> is extremely conductive to a ..er.. "creativity". :-)
>> You have my sympathy: I read one of Heribert Illig's books.
> Actually, I rather enjoyed F's book that I managed to
> read (he has a full s--tload of them) because it is
> completely bizarre with the "facts" being adjusted to
> his theory: did not know that either Madrid or Ankara
> qualified as the major "Medieval capitals" or that river
> Don in Scotland named after the Russian one, etc. [,,,]
Yes, some of these folks are pretty funny. Though I still
think that Steve Whittet wins some sort of all-time prize.
At one point there was a fellow posting Fomenko’s ideas
here; I think that it was ‘Chris Marx c/o PAF’ (or maybe
without the ‘Chris’). PAF turns out to be Podium
Akademische Freiheit, and this fellow seems to be a
Velikovskian, too.
And before that we had Tilmann Chladek refuting Illig’s
nonsense; he still has a website doing so, at
<http://home.snafu.de/tilmann.chladek/Seiten/Mittelalter.html>.
<alexm...@msn.com> wrote
in<news:fff12cce-c7cb-47dc...@googlegroups.com>
in soc.history.medieval:
> On Wednesday, February 10, 2016 at 11:05:10 AM UTC-5,
> Brian M. Scott wrote:
>> On Wed, 10 Feb 2016 07:05:10 -0800 (PST), AlexMilman
>> <alexm...@msn.com> wrote
>> in<news:92e47d50-1918-43ba...@googlegroups.com>
>> in soc.history.medieval:
>> [...]
>>> The same goes for those from even more 'remote' areas
>>> of science, like mathematics like Fomenko & Co who
>>> were (presumably) using statistical methods to come
>>> with a "New chronology". I read one of their endless
>>> books and must say that a general cultural ignorance
>>> is extremely conductive to a ..er.. "creativity". :-)
>> You have my sympathy: I read one of Heribert Illig's books.
> Judging by Wiki, he and Fomenko are birds of the feather.
They are indeed.
> Actually, I rather enjoyed F's book that I managed to
> read (he has a full s--tload of them) because it is
> completely bizarre with the "facts" being adjusted to
> his theory: did not know that either Madrid or Ankara
> qualified as the major "Medieval capitals" or that river
Yes, some of these folks are pretty funny. Though I still
think that Steve Whittet wins some sort of all-time prize.
At one point there was a fellow posting Fomenko’s ideas
here; I think that it was ‘Chris Marx c/o PAF’ (or maybe
without the ‘Chris’). PAF turns out to be Podium
Akademische Freiheit, and this fellow seems to be a
Velikovskian, too.
And before that we had Tilmann Chladek refuting Illig’s
nonsense; he still has a website doing so, at
<http://home.snafu.de/tilmann.chladek/Seiten/Mittelalter.html>.
Eric Stevens
Feb 10, 2016, 4:16:27 PM2/10/16
to
http://www.thomas-cole.info/The-Course-of-Empire--Destruction,-1836.html
You can even get a copy of your own.
--
Regards,
Eric Stevens
Eric Stevens
Feb 10, 2016, 4:43:04 PM2/10/16
to
link http://tinyurl.com/hfhhh4u - wrote:
"As David Keys explains in his book Catastrophe,36! "in AD 535/536,
mankind was hit by one of the greatest natural disasters ever to
occur.... It blotted out much of the light and heat from Sun for 18
months and resulted, directly or indirectly in climatic chaos,
famine, migration, war, and massive political change on virtually
every continent." This event was the most severe and protracted
cooling event in the past 2000 years (Figure 13.1)362 and has been
attributed to Rabaul volcano in New Guinea, Krakatau volcano in
Indonesia, and even to a meteorite impact. The best data, however,
suggest that it was an eruption from the 28 mi2 (72 km2) Ilopango
caldera, just outside of San Salvador, El Salvador.363 It caused
world-wide famine, the beginning of the Dark Ages, and the decline
of Teotihuacan, a pre-Columbian Mesoamerican city located today 30
mi (48 km) northeast of Mexico City. This was the largest explosive
eruption in written history."
He went on to write:
"In 934 AD, Eldgja erupted in Iceland, the largest effusive flood
basalt eruption in written history, extruding 4.3 mi3 (18 km3) of
lava over an area of 309 mi2 (800 km2),364 and warming the world
into the Medieval warm period (Figure 13.1)."
That one volcano should cause cooling and the other cause warming is
that only Plinian eruptions create a persisting dustcloud in the
stratosphere, thereby causing cooling. Flood eruptions do not do this
but emit vast quantities of halogens (particularly chlorine) which
attack the ozone layer and thereby cause warming. Plinian eruptions
also emit halogens but their effect is more than cancelled by the
dust.
Ward's theory seems to broadly match history.
--
Regards,
Eric Stevens
AlexMilman
Feb 11, 2016, 8:54:44 AM2/11/16
to
> You can even get a copy of your own.
AlexMilman
Feb 11, 2016, 8:59:31 AM2/11/16
to
Was he one of the SHM posters whom I (fortunately) missed?
Anyway, what makes him #1?
>
> At one point there was a fellow posting Fomenko's ideas
> here; I think that it was 'Chris Marx c/o PAF' (or maybe
> without the 'Chris'). PAF turns out to be Podium
> Akademische Freiheit, and this fellow seems to be a
> Velikovskian, too.
>
> And before that we had Tilmann Chladek
Pete Barrett
Feb 11, 2016, 12:55:53 PM2/11/16
to
(Fluorine and Chlorine are two of the more reactive elements), so would be
more likely to attack tropospheric ozone, which is itself a greenhouse gas.
I'd have thought that halogen emissions would be more likely to *cool* the
climate.
Of course, if they *did* reach the ozone layer, then depleting it would let
through more UV light, and might have an effect. Is that what he's thinking?
Do you have any more on this theory?
--
Pete BARRETT
Brian M. Scott
Feb 11, 2016, 1:27:52 PM2/11/16
to
On Thu, 11 Feb 2016 05:59:30 -0800 (PST), AlexMilman
<alexm...@msn.com> wrote
in<news:831cd3f5-938a-4a6c...@googlegroups.com>
in soc.history.medieval:
> On Wednesday, February 10, 2016 at 3:41:59 PM UTC-5,
> Brian M. Scott wrote:
[...]
>> Yes, some of these folks are pretty funny. Though I still
>> think that Steve Whittet wins some sort of all-time prize.
> Don't know about this one and could not find about him on
> Wiki. Was he one of the SHM posters whom I (fortunately)
> missed?
You didn’t miss him: his nonsense was the inspiration for
the Washerwomen. I forget why he came here; I’d been
arguing with him for years in sci.archaeology at that
point.
> Anyway, what makes him #1?
His persistence, his basic good nature, his ability to
misunderstand what he read in reputable sources, and the
sheer humorous looniness of his ideas. I’ve forgotten most
of them, but I do remember that he thought that the
Egyptian pyramids were built by using hydraulic pressure to
lift the stone blocks. He even had a natural source for
the water that he’d found on some map. Unfortunately, his
calculations put the stream in question several feet above
ground level. And of course he was sure that the
dimensions of the Great Pyramid contained all sorts of
advanced knowledge.
There was also a hilarious misreading of some Egyptian
hieroglyphic document; if I remember correctly, it
eventually came out that he was ‘reading’ it backwards.
And when caught out he released a word-cloud that would put
even most politicians to shame; it was to describe those
effusions that I came up with the word ‘squink’, shortened
from ‘squid ink’.
<alexm...@msn.com> wrote
in<news:831cd3f5-938a-4a6c...@googlegroups.com>
in soc.history.medieval:
> On Wednesday, February 10, 2016 at 3:41:59 PM UTC-5,
> Brian M. Scott wrote:
>> Yes, some of these folks are pretty funny. Though I still
>> think that Steve Whittet wins some sort of all-time prize.
> Don't know about this one and could not find about him on
> Wiki. Was he one of the SHM posters whom I (fortunately)
> missed?
the Washerwomen. I forget why he came here; I’d been
arguing with him for years in sci.archaeology at that
point.
> Anyway, what makes him #1?
misunderstand what he read in reputable sources, and the
sheer humorous looniness of his ideas. I’ve forgotten most
of them, but I do remember that he thought that the
Egyptian pyramids were built by using hydraulic pressure to
lift the stone blocks. He even had a natural source for
the water that he’d found on some map. Unfortunately, his
calculations put the stream in question several feet above
ground level. And of course he was sure that the
dimensions of the Great Pyramid contained all sorts of
advanced knowledge.
There was also a hilarious misreading of some Egyptian
hieroglyphic document; if I remember correctly, it
eventually came out that he was ‘reading’ it backwards.
And when caught out he released a word-cloud that would put
even most politicians to shame; it was to describe those
effusions that I came up with the word ‘squink’, shortened
from ‘squid ink’.
AlexMilman
Feb 11, 2016, 2:37:21 PM2/11/16
to
On Thursday, February 11, 2016 at 1:27:52 PM UTC-5, Brian M. Scott wrote:
> On Thu, 11 Feb 2016 05:59:30 -0800 (PST), AlexMilman
> <alexm...@msn.com> wrote
> in<news:831cd3f5-938a-4a6c...@googlegroups.com>
> in soc.history.medieval:
>
> > On Wednesday, February 10, 2016 at 3:41:59 PM UTC-5,
> > Brian M. Scott wrote:
>
> [...]
>
> >> Yes, some of these folks are pretty funny. Though I still
> >> think that Steve Whittet wins some sort of all-time prize.
>
> > Don't know about this one and could not find about him on
> > Wiki. Was he one of the SHM posters whom I (fortunately)
> > missed?
>
> You didn't miss him: his nonsense was the inspiration for
> the Washerwomen.
This came from Gerritt Bigalski but I don't remember in response to
> On Thu, 11 Feb 2016 05:59:30 -0800 (PST), AlexMilman
> <alexm...@msn.com> wrote
> in<news:831cd3f5-938a-4a6c...@googlegroups.com>
> in soc.history.medieval:
>
> > On Wednesday, February 10, 2016 at 3:41:59 PM UTC-5,
> > Brian M. Scott wrote:
>
> [...]
>
> >> Yes, some of these folks are pretty funny. Though I still
> >> think that Steve Whittet wins some sort of all-time prize.
>
> > Don't know about this one and could not find about him on
> > Wiki. Was he one of the SHM posters whom I (fortunately)
> > missed?
>
> You didn't miss him: his nonsense was the inspiration for
> the Washerwomen.
what.
To think about it, how any information leading to this fundamental
discovery could be considered a nonsense? Perhaps he was just a
genius running well ahead of his time (and his brain)? :-)
Well, I definitely forgot him: probably was too excited with Gerritt's
discovery and related historic opportunities to remember the "muse".
> I forget why he came here; I'd been
> arguing with him for years in sci.archaeology at that
> point.
>
> > Anyway, what makes him #1?
>
> His persistence, his basic good nature, his ability to
> misunderstand what he read in reputable sources, and the
> sheer humorous looniness of his ideas. I've forgotten most
> of them, but I do remember that he thought that the
> Egyptian pyramids were built by using hydraulic pressure to
> lift the stone blocks.
highly reputable in his profession) seriously insists that they were
grain storage facilities, the trifles like the method of their
construction could be overlooked. :-)
> He even had a natural source for
> the water that he'd found on some map. Unfortunately, his
> calculations put the stream in question several feet above
> ground level. And of course he was sure that the
> dimensions of the Great Pyramid contained all sorts of
> advanced knowledge.
>
invent a <meaningful item> (let's say, an average spitting distance
of a Bactrian camel), then (b) divide whatever dimension of the
pyramid they choose by that number getting as a result (c) "a pyramid
inch" (meter, middle finger, penis) and then (d) publish an article
saying that a side of the pyramid contains exactly <xxxx> of the
<meaningful items> measured in "pyramid penises". And they are absolutely
correct in their statements.
> There was also a hilarious misreading of some Egyptian
> hieroglyphic document; if I remember correctly, it
> eventually came out that he was 'reading' it backwards.
>
> And when caught out he released a word-cloud that would put
> even most politicians to shame;
CAN be ashamed. OTOH, if you are implying that he was much
better then they are in talking forever while saying nothing,
this is not such a difficult task (admittedly, with some training)
because our politicians are not very good even in this fundamental
part of their profession. :-)
> it was to describe those
> effusions that I came up with the word 'squink', shortened
> from 'squid ink'.
Michael Kuettner
Feb 11, 2016, 3:37:26 PM2/11/16
to
Brian M. Scott wrote:
> On Wed, 10 Feb 2016 07:05:10 -0800 (PST), AlexMilman
> <alexm...@msn.com> wrote
> in<news:92e47d50-1918-43ba...@googlegroups.com>
> in soc.history.medieval:
>
> [...]
>
>> The same goes for those from even more 'remote' areas of
>> science, like mathematics like Fomenko & Co who were
Fomenko? The catastrophist & Flying tanks of Stalin ?
> On Wed, 10 Feb 2016 07:05:10 -0800 (PST), AlexMilman
> <alexm...@msn.com> wrote
> in<news:92e47d50-1918-43ba...@googlegroups.com>
> in soc.history.medieval:
>
> [...]
>
>> The same goes for those from even more 'remote' areas of
>> science, like mathematics like Fomenko & Co who were
>> (presumably) using statistical methods to come with a
>> "New chronology". I read one of their endless books and
>> must say that a general cultural ignorance is extremely
>> conductive to a ..er.. "creativity". :-)
>
> You have my sympathy: I read one of Heribert Illig’s books.
>
> [...]
>
> Brian
>
A belated Happy New Year to all !
Cheers,
Michael Kuettner
P.S. : This author is a little better than Billig. Western Rome fell
in 476; so he's just two generations off target.
The little fact that the Franks were in power in 536 obviously was
hidden by volcanic ash. ;-P
As we all know since the volcanic eruption in Iceland, ash can stay in
the athmosphere for a long time; in this case, it stayed there for a
thousand years to kill Byzantinium...
Brian M. Scott
Feb 11, 2016, 3:43:02 PM2/11/16
to
On Thu, 11 Feb 2016 21:35:41 +0100, Michael Kuettner
<Michael....@gmx.at> wrote
in<news:n9ir8m$iut$1...@dont-email.me> in
soc.history.medieval:
> Brian M. Scott wrote:
[...]
little lunacy every now and then to liven up a dull day!
<Michael....@gmx.at> wrote
in<news:n9ir8m$iut$1...@dont-email.me> in
soc.history.medieval:
> Brian M. Scott wrote:
[...]
>> You have my sympathy: I read one of Heribert Illig’s books.
> That's cruel and unusual punishment. Did you lose a bet
> after some beers ?
Believe it or not, I read it for fun. Nothing like a
> That's cruel and unusual punishment. Did you lose a bet
> after some beers ?
little lunacy every now and then to liven up a dull day!
Eric Stevens
Feb 11, 2016, 4:38:23 PM2/11/16
to
On Thu, 11 Feb 2016 17:55:47 +0000, Pete Barrett <nor...@xxx.uk>
wrote:
Unfortunately he gives no simple concise explanation and calls on
physics which I haven't looked at for 60 years. I'm still trying to
work out whether or not he may be correct. The following is the most
concise description I can find. The original text includes a diagram
which I have inserted at the appropriate place via a link
"How Does the Ozone Layer Protect Earth from Sun's "Hottest"
Radiation?
The ozone layer, primarily 12 to 19 miles (20 to 30 km) above
Earth's surface, is not a static layer of gas, but is a region of
the atmosphere where sufficient solar ultraviolet radiation of
frequency greater than or equal to 1237 THz is available to
dissociate oxygen, leading to the formation of ozone, and
sufficient ultraviolet radiation at lower frequencies is available
to dissociate ozone. Ozone is dissociated most efficiently by solar
ultraviolet-B radiation with frequencies around 967 THz, although
some photodissociation is caused by frequencies as low as 887
THz.109 Thus, ozone is created and destroyed continually in a
sequence known as the Chapman cycle, which will be described in the
next chapter. The ozone layer is the last chance to absorb solar
ultraviolet radiation before it strikes Earth.
The green area in Figure 5.4
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/31088803/Fred001.jpg
shows the frequency distribution of excess ultraviolet-A and
ultraviolet-B radiation that reaches Earth when the ozone layer is
depleted by 1%, as calculated by Sasha Madronich.110 Actinic flux
on the y-axis is defined as the total intensity of sunlight
available to be absorbed by a molecule of air, including direct,
scattered, and reflected radiation coming from all directions, as
calculated by Madronich.111 Actinic flux is a more detailed and
complete representation of the "Amplitude or brightness" spectrum
plotted in Figure 5.2. Note the substantial increase in UV-B and
the lesser amount of increased UV-A radiation reaching Earth when
ozone is depleted by only 1 %.
Recognizing that radiant energy is simply a function of
frequency times the Planck constant (E=hv), and that the higher the
frequency the higher the color temperature of the radiation, then
it is easy to understand why the mean surface temperature of Earth
is determined primarily by the highest frequencies of ultraviolet
radiation reaching Earth as well as by the length of time Earth is
exposed to this very "hot" radiation.
What Is the Primary Radiative Surface of the Earth System?
The major warming observed in Earth's atmosphere is in the
stratosphere (Figure 5.1), where temperatures at the stratopause,
31 to 34 mi (50 to 55 km) above Earth's surface, are maintained at
tens of degrees warmer than temperatures at the tropopause, at 5.6
to 10.6 mi (9 to 17 km) altitude. This warming is done primarily by
solar ultraviolet energy dissociating molecular oxygen (O2) and
many other chemical species. The stratosphere acts as an "electric"
blanket, in the sense that the energy to warm the blanket does not
come from the body under the blanket, i.e. from Earth, but from
another source, in this case, Sun.
Temperatures at the stratopause vary greatly with season but
commonly range from 8.6 to 37蚌 (-13 to +3蚓) in the tropics, -5.8
to 45蚌 (-21 to +7討 in mid latitudes, and -4 to 68蚌 (-20 to
+20蚓) near the poles112 and average close to 5蚌 (-15蚓).113
Thus, solar energy causing photodissociation of oxygen and
other chemical species in the stratosphere plays the major role in
keeping Earth warmer than it would be in the absence of an
atmosphere. The stratopause is the key radiant surface into space
of the Earth/ atmosphere system, and it can continue to radiate
only because heat from both a Sun-warmed stratosphere and a
Sun-warmed Earth rises continuously through the stratosphere below,
replacing the heat radiated from the stratopause. Temperature drops
with increasing altitude above the stratopause and below the
mesopause just as in the troposphere, so that turbulence is likely
active there.
The temperature profile shown in Figure 5.1 is the balance
within the atmosphere of heat flowing into and out of the
Earth/atmosphere system."
Just for the hell of it, here is Figure 5.1
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/31088803/Fred002.jpg
Ward makes the point that it seems to be common to base calculations
of energy flux on the simple radiant spectrum while in fact the energy
carried is also a function of frequency. This means that the UV-B
energy absorbed by the ozone layer is 48 times that absorbed most
strongly by CO2.
He atrributes the current(?) temperature hiatus to the Montreal
protocol on Substances that Deplete the Ozone Layer (a protocol to the
Vienna Convention for the Protection of the Ozone Layer) is an
international treaty designed to protect the ozone layer by phasing
out the production of numerous substances that are responsible for
ozone depletion.
--
Regards,
Eric Stevens
wrote:
physics which I haven't looked at for 60 years. I'm still trying to
work out whether or not he may be correct. The following is the most
concise description I can find. The original text includes a diagram
which I have inserted at the appropriate place via a link
"How Does the Ozone Layer Protect Earth from Sun's "Hottest"
Radiation?
The ozone layer, primarily 12 to 19 miles (20 to 30 km) above
Earth's surface, is not a static layer of gas, but is a region of
the atmosphere where sufficient solar ultraviolet radiation of
frequency greater than or equal to 1237 THz is available to
dissociate oxygen, leading to the formation of ozone, and
sufficient ultraviolet radiation at lower frequencies is available
to dissociate ozone. Ozone is dissociated most efficiently by solar
ultraviolet-B radiation with frequencies around 967 THz, although
some photodissociation is caused by frequencies as low as 887
THz.109 Thus, ozone is created and destroyed continually in a
sequence known as the Chapman cycle, which will be described in the
next chapter. The ozone layer is the last chance to absorb solar
ultraviolet radiation before it strikes Earth.
The green area in Figure 5.4
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/31088803/Fred001.jpg
shows the frequency distribution of excess ultraviolet-A and
ultraviolet-B radiation that reaches Earth when the ozone layer is
depleted by 1%, as calculated by Sasha Madronich.110 Actinic flux
on the y-axis is defined as the total intensity of sunlight
available to be absorbed by a molecule of air, including direct,
scattered, and reflected radiation coming from all directions, as
calculated by Madronich.111 Actinic flux is a more detailed and
complete representation of the "Amplitude or brightness" spectrum
plotted in Figure 5.2. Note the substantial increase in UV-B and
the lesser amount of increased UV-A radiation reaching Earth when
ozone is depleted by only 1 %.
Recognizing that radiant energy is simply a function of
frequency times the Planck constant (E=hv), and that the higher the
frequency the higher the color temperature of the radiation, then
it is easy to understand why the mean surface temperature of Earth
is determined primarily by the highest frequencies of ultraviolet
radiation reaching Earth as well as by the length of time Earth is
exposed to this very "hot" radiation.
What Is the Primary Radiative Surface of the Earth System?
The major warming observed in Earth's atmosphere is in the
stratosphere (Figure 5.1), where temperatures at the stratopause,
31 to 34 mi (50 to 55 km) above Earth's surface, are maintained at
tens of degrees warmer than temperatures at the tropopause, at 5.6
to 10.6 mi (9 to 17 km) altitude. This warming is done primarily by
solar ultraviolet energy dissociating molecular oxygen (O2) and
many other chemical species. The stratosphere acts as an "electric"
blanket, in the sense that the energy to warm the blanket does not
come from the body under the blanket, i.e. from Earth, but from
another source, in this case, Sun.
Temperatures at the stratopause vary greatly with season but
commonly range from 8.6 to 37蚌 (-13 to +3蚓) in the tropics, -5.8
to 45蚌 (-21 to +7討 in mid latitudes, and -4 to 68蚌 (-20 to
+20蚓) near the poles112 and average close to 5蚌 (-15蚓).113
Thus, solar energy causing photodissociation of oxygen and
other chemical species in the stratosphere plays the major role in
keeping Earth warmer than it would be in the absence of an
atmosphere. The stratopause is the key radiant surface into space
of the Earth/ atmosphere system, and it can continue to radiate
only because heat from both a Sun-warmed stratosphere and a
Sun-warmed Earth rises continuously through the stratosphere below,
replacing the heat radiated from the stratopause. Temperature drops
with increasing altitude above the stratopause and below the
mesopause just as in the troposphere, so that turbulence is likely
active there.
The temperature profile shown in Figure 5.1 is the balance
within the atmosphere of heat flowing into and out of the
Earth/atmosphere system."
Just for the hell of it, here is Figure 5.1
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/31088803/Fred002.jpg
Ward makes the point that it seems to be common to base calculations
of energy flux on the simple radiant spectrum while in fact the energy
carried is also a function of frequency. This means that the UV-B
energy absorbed by the ozone layer is 48 times that absorbed most
strongly by CO2.
He atrributes the current(?) temperature hiatus to the Montreal
protocol on Substances that Deplete the Ozone Layer (a protocol to the
Vienna Convention for the Protection of the Ozone Layer) is an
international treaty designed to protect the ozone layer by phasing
out the production of numerous substances that are responsible for
ozone depletion.
--
Regards,
Eric Stevens
The Horny Goat
Feb 12, 2016, 2:03:41 AM2/12/16
to
On Thu, 11 Feb 2016 21:35:41 +0100, Michael Kuettner
Now is that a standard New Year (in which case you're 5 weeks late or
the Chinese New Year in which case you're only 3 days late?
Eric Stevens
Feb 12, 2016, 2:25:38 AM2/12/16
to
On Thu, 11 Feb 2016 23:03:43 -0800, The Horny Goat <lcr...@home.ca>
wrote:
The Chinese here think we are three days early.
--
Regards,
Eric Stevens
wrote:
--
Regards,
Eric Stevens
Pete Barrett
Feb 12, 2016, 10:23:32 AM2/12/16
to
> to 45°F (-21 to +7°Q in mid latitudes, and -4 to 68°F (-20 to
> +20°C) near the poles112 and average close to 5°F (-15°C).113
> Thus, solar energy causing photodissociation of oxygen and
> other chemical species in the stratosphere plays the major role in
> keeping Earth warmer than it would be in the absence of an
> atmosphere. The stratopause is the key radiant surface into space
> of the Earth/ atmosphere system, and it can continue to radiate
> only because heat from both a Sun-warmed stratosphere and a
> Sun-warmed Earth rises continuously through the stratosphere below,
> replacing the heat radiated from the stratopause. Temperature drops
> with increasing altitude above the stratopause and below the
> mesopause just as in the troposphere, so that turbulence is likely
> active there.
> The temperature profile shown in Figure 5.1 is the balance
> within the atmosphere of heat flowing into and out of the
> Earth/atmosphere system."
>
> Just for the hell of it, here is Figure 5.1
> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/31088803/Fred002.jpg
>
Thanks. Though I have to admit that I never studied atmospheric chemistry
> other chemical species in the stratosphere plays the major role in
> keeping Earth warmer than it would be in the absence of an
> atmosphere. The stratopause is the key radiant surface into space
> of the Earth/ atmosphere system, and it can continue to radiate
> only because heat from both a Sun-warmed stratosphere and a
> Sun-warmed Earth rises continuously through the stratosphere below,
> replacing the heat radiated from the stratopause. Temperature drops
> with increasing altitude above the stratopause and below the
> mesopause just as in the troposphere, so that turbulence is likely
> active there.
> The temperature profile shown in Figure 5.1 is the balance
> within the atmosphere of heat flowing into and out of the
> Earth/atmosphere system."
>
> Just for the hell of it, here is Figure 5.1
> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/31088803/Fred002.jpg
>
(it wasn't an option when I was at university 40 years ago!).
>
> Ward makes the point that it seems to be common to base calculations
> of energy flux on the simple radiant spectrum while in fact the energy
> carried is also a function of frequency. This means that the UV-B
> energy absorbed by the ozone layer is 48 times that absorbed most
> strongly by CO2.
The energy *per photon* is dependent on the frequency, but when we're
> Ward makes the point that it seems to be common to base calculations
> of energy flux on the simple radiant spectrum while in fact the energy
> carried is also a function of frequency. This means that the UV-B
> energy absorbed by the ozone layer is 48 times that absorbed most
> strongly by CO2.
talking of the heating effect of solar energy at the Earth's surface, it's
the total energy reaching the surface that's important - taking the
frequency into account risks counting the same energy twice. Ward, I assume,
is well aware of that, and is not basing his argument on a mistake; but I'll
bet someone will do exactly that!
>
> He atrributes the current(?) temperature hiatus to the Montreal
> protocol on Substances that Deplete the Ozone Layer (a protocol to the
> Vienna Convention for the Protection of the Ozone Layer) is an
> international treaty designed to protect the ozone layer by phasing
> out the production of numerous substances that are responsible for
> ozone depletion.
Ahh. If he's trying to find an explanation for a failure of the mean global
> He atrributes the current(?) temperature hiatus to the Montreal
> protocol on Substances that Deplete the Ozone Layer (a protocol to the
> Vienna Convention for the Protection of the Ozone Layer) is an
> international treaty designed to protect the ozone layer by phasing
> out the production of numerous substances that are responsible for
> ozone depletion.
temperature to rise in the last few years (something which the last I heard
wasn't universally accepted anyway, measurements of temperature trends being
so difficult to make), then that makes some sense, and he might be right.
And then, the hole in the ozone layer has only just started to stop getting
bigger
(http://www.unep.org/newscentre/Default.aspx?DocumentID=2796&ArticleID=10978&l=en).
Would that be enough to explain a hiatus in warming (if it has happened)
over the last 10 years?
--
Pete BARRETT
AlexMilman
Feb 12, 2016, 3:22:37 PM2/12/16
to
On Thursday, February 11, 2016 at 3:37:26 PM UTC-5, Michael Kuettner wrote:
> Brian M. Scott wrote:
> > On Wed, 10 Feb 2016 07:05:10 -0800 (PST), AlexMilman
> > <alexm...@msn.com> wrote
> > in<news:92e47d50-1918-43ba...@googlegroups.com>
> > in soc.history.medieval:
> >
> > [...]
> >
> >> The same goes for those from even more 'remote' areas of
> >> science, like mathematics like Fomenko & Co who were
>
> Fomenko? The catastrophist & Flying tanks of Stalin ?
No, this is "Suvorov" (Rezun). Fomenko (outside of his area of a
> Brian M. Scott wrote:
> > On Wed, 10 Feb 2016 07:05:10 -0800 (PST), AlexMilman
> > <alexm...@msn.com> wrote
> > in<news:92e47d50-1918-43ba...@googlegroups.com>
> > in soc.history.medieval:
> >
> > [...]
> >
> >> The same goes for those from even more 'remote' areas of
> >> science, like mathematics like Fomenko & Co who were
>
> Fomenko? The catastrophist & Flying tanks of Stalin ?
real expertise) is into an alternative time line. And (as far as
I can tell by a single book) into the Russian supremacy as well.
>
> >> (presumably) using statistical methods to come with a
> >> "New chronology". I read one of their endless books and
> >> must say that a general cultural ignorance is extremely
> >> conductive to a ..er.. "creativity". :-)
> >
> > You have my sympathy: I read one of Heribert Illig's books.
> >
> That's cruel and unusual punishment. Did you lose a bet after some beers ?
>
> > [...]
> >
> > Brian
> >
> A belated Happy New Year to all !
>
> Cheers,
>
> Michael Kuettner
>
> P.S. : This author is a little better than Billig. Western Rome fell
> in 476; so he's just two generations off target.
> The little fact that the Franks were in power in 536 obviously was
> hidden by volcanic ash. ;-P
> As we all know since the volcanic eruption in Iceland, ash can stay in
> the athmosphere for a long time; in this case, it stayed there for a
> thousand years to kill Byzantinium...
civilized, they obviously caused a greater regional pollution which
eventually doomed them.
AlexMilman
Feb 12, 2016, 3:23:34 PM2/12/16
to
On Thursday, February 11, 2016 at 3:43:02 PM UTC-5, Brian M. Scott wrote:
> On Thu, 11 Feb 2016 21:35:41 +0100, Michael Kuettner
> <Michael....@gmx.at> wrote
> in<news:n9ir8m$iut$1...@dont-email.me> in
> soc.history.medieval:
>
> > Brian M. Scott wrote:
>
> [...]
>
> >> You have my sympathy: I read one of Heribert Illig's books.
>
> > That's cruel and unusual punishment. Did you lose a bet
> > after some beers ?
>
> Believe it or not, I read it for fun. Nothing like a
> little lunacy every now and then to liven up a dull day!
>
> [...]
Sure, the idiocy can be quite entertaining when consumed in moderation.
> On Thu, 11 Feb 2016 21:35:41 +0100, Michael Kuettner
> <Michael....@gmx.at> wrote
> in<news:n9ir8m$iut$1...@dont-email.me> in
> soc.history.medieval:
>
> > Brian M. Scott wrote:
>
> [...]
>
> >> You have my sympathy: I read one of Heribert Illig's books.
>
> > That's cruel and unusual punishment. Did you lose a bet
> > after some beers ?
>
> Believe it or not, I read it for fun. Nothing like a
> little lunacy every now and then to liven up a dull day!
>
> [...]
:-)
AlexMilman
Feb 12, 2016, 3:24:50 PM2/12/16
to
somewhere in between.
Eric Stevens
Feb 12, 2016, 4:15:25 PM2/12/16
to
On Fri, 12 Feb 2016 15:23:26 +0000, Pete Barrett <nor...@xxx.uk>
>> commonly range from 8.6 to 37蚌 (-13 to +3蚓) in the tropics, -5.8
>> to 45蚌 (-21 to +7討 in mid latitudes, and -4 to 68蚌 (-20 to
>> +20蚓) near the poles112 and average close to 5蚌 (-15蚓).113
>the total energy reaching the surface that's important ...
This is Ward's point. The ozone layer takes out a small part of the
spectrum but a large part of the energy carried by UV-B. This is why
he thinks that ozone is so much more effective than CO2 at controlling
earths temperature.
> ... - taking the
peer reviewed explanations published for the so-called hiatus. Only
one claims that the satellite measurements are wrong.
--
Regards,
Eric Stevens
>> to 45蚌 (-21 to +7討 in mid latitudes, and -4 to 68蚌 (-20 to
>> +20蚓) near the poles112 and average close to 5蚌 (-15蚓).113
This is Ward's point. The ozone layer takes out a small part of the
spectrum but a large part of the energy carried by UV-B. This is why
he thinks that ozone is so much more effective than CO2 at controlling
earths temperature.
> ... - taking the
>frequency into account risks counting the same energy twice. Ward, I assume,
>is well aware of that, and is not basing his argument on a mistake; but I'll
>bet someone will do exactly that!
>>
>> He atrributes the current(?) temperature hiatus to the Montreal
>> protocol on Substances that Deplete the Ozone Layer (a protocol to the
>> Vienna Convention for the Protection of the Ozone Layer) is an
>> international treaty designed to protect the ozone layer by phasing
>> out the production of numerous substances that are responsible for
>> ozone depletion.
>
>Ahh. If he's trying to find an explanation for a failure of the mean global
>temperature to rise in the last few years (something which the last I heard
>wasn't universally accepted anyway, measurements of temperature trends being
>so difficult to make), then that makes some sense, and he might be right.
I've lost track now but I believe there are more than 30 different
>is well aware of that, and is not basing his argument on a mistake; but I'll
>bet someone will do exactly that!
>>
>> He atrributes the current(?) temperature hiatus to the Montreal
>> protocol on Substances that Deplete the Ozone Layer (a protocol to the
>> Vienna Convention for the Protection of the Ozone Layer) is an
>> international treaty designed to protect the ozone layer by phasing
>> out the production of numerous substances that are responsible for
>> ozone depletion.
>
>Ahh. If he's trying to find an explanation for a failure of the mean global
>temperature to rise in the last few years (something which the last I heard
>wasn't universally accepted anyway, measurements of temperature trends being
>so difficult to make), then that makes some sense, and he might be right.
peer reviewed explanations published for the so-called hiatus. Only
one claims that the satellite measurements are wrong.
>
>And then, the hole in the ozone layer has only just started to stop getting
>bigger
>(http://www.unep.org/newscentre/Default.aspx?DocumentID=2796&ArticleID=10978&l=en).
>Would that be enough to explain a hiatus in warming (if it has happened)
>over the last 10 years?
We shall have to wait and see.
>And then, the hole in the ozone layer has only just started to stop getting
>bigger
>(http://www.unep.org/newscentre/Default.aspx?DocumentID=2796&ArticleID=10978&l=en).
>Would that be enough to explain a hiatus in warming (if it has happened)
>over the last 10 years?
--
Regards,
Eric Stevens
Erilar
Feb 12, 2016, 9:39:58 PM2/12/16
to
Brian M. Scott <b.s...@csuohio.edu> wrote:
> On Wed, 10 Feb 2016 07:05:10 -0800 (PST), AlexMilman
> <alexm...@msn.com> wrote
> in<news:92e47d50-1918-43ba...@googlegroups.com>
> in soc.history.medieval:
>
> [...]
>
>> The same goes for those from even more 'remote' areas of
>> science, like mathematics like Fomenko & Co who were
>> (presumably) using statistical methods to come with a
>> "New chronology". I read one of their endless books and
>> must say that a general cultural ignorance is extremely
>> conductive to a ..er.. "creativity". :-)
>
> You have my sympathy: I read one of Heribert Illig’s books.
>
> [...]
>
> Brian
Unsympathic giggles 8-)
> On Wed, 10 Feb 2016 07:05:10 -0800 (PST), AlexMilman
> <alexm...@msn.com> wrote
> in<news:92e47d50-1918-43ba...@googlegroups.com>
> in soc.history.medieval:
>
> [...]
>
>> The same goes for those from even more 'remote' areas of
>> science, like mathematics like Fomenko & Co who were
>> (presumably) using statistical methods to come with a
>> "New chronology". I read one of their endless books and
>> must say that a general cultural ignorance is extremely
>> conductive to a ..er.. "creativity". :-)
>
> You have my sympathy: I read one of Heribert Illig’s books.
>
> [...]
>
> Brian
--
biblioholic medievalist via iPad
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