10 Interesting Facts About The Byzantine Empire

[David Amicus]

http://listverse.com/2013/04/20/10-interesting-facts-about-the-byzantine-empire/?utm_source=more&utm_medium=link&utm_campaign=direct

[Peter Jason]

On Wed, 21 Oct 2015 14:40:48 -0700 (PDT), David Amicus
<davida...@gmail.com> wrote:

>http://listverse.com/2013/04/20/10-interesting-facts-about-the-byzantine-empire/?utm_source=more&utm_medium=link&utm_campaign=direct

I read this to:

The ingredients of “Greek fire” were closely guarded, but historians
think it was a mixture of naphtha, pitch, sulfur, lithium, potassium,
metallic sodium, calcium phosphide and a petroleum base. Other nations
eventually came up with similar version of the stuff, but the fact
that it was dangerous for their own troops, too, made it go out of
military fashion by the mid-to-late fifteenth century.

but marveled at the CaPhosphide, Li, Na, K, etc. Clearly the
Byzantines were marvelous chemists?

And their aversion to "friendly Fire" .



"Greek Fire" was probably pine-tree exudate, gathered from the
highlands of Macedonia.

[Paul J Gans]

Peter Jason <p...@jostle.com> wrote:
>On Wed, 21 Oct 2015 14:40:48 -0700 (PDT), David Amicus
><davida...@gmail.com> wrote:

>>http://listverse.com/2013/04/20/10-interesting-facts-about-the-byzantine-empire/?utm_source=more&utm_medium=link&utm_campaign=direct

>I read this to:

>The ingredients of ?Greek fire? were closely guarded, but historians

>think it was a mixture of naphtha, pitch, sulfur, lithium, potassium,
>metallic sodium, calcium phosphide and a petroleum base. Other nations
>eventually came up with similar version of the stuff, but the fact
>that it was dangerous for their own troops, too, made it go out of
>military fashion by the mid-to-late fifteenth century.

>but marveled at the CaPhosphide, Li, Na, K, etc. Clearly the
>Byzantines were marvelous chemists?

>And their aversion to "friendly Fire" .

>"Greek Fire" was probably pine-tree exudate, gathered from the
>highlands of Macedonia.

The composition of "Greek Fire" is still unknown. There were many
versions of it, some known to and used by folks in Western Europe
to defend castles. It was a great way to destroy a seige tower.

But we have to rule out lithium, sodium, and potassium as ingredients,
since they were not only unknown then, but could not be produced
without the development of electrochemistry, which took place in
modern times.

--
--- Paul J. Gans

[Peter Jason]

On Thu, 22 Oct 2015 00:05:39 +0000 (UTC), Paul J Gans
<gan...@panix.com> wrote:

>Peter Jason <p...@jostle.com> wrote:
>>On Wed, 21 Oct 2015 14:40:48 -0700 (PDT), David Amicus
>><davida...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>>http://listverse.com/2013/04/20/10-interesting-facts-about-the-byzantine-empire/?utm_source=more&utm_medium=link&utm_campaign=direct
>
>>I read this to:
>
>>The ingredients of ?Greek fire? were closely guarded, but historians
>>think it was a mixture of naphtha, pitch, sulfur, lithium, potassium,
>>metallic sodium, calcium phosphide and a petroleum base. Other nations
>>eventually came up with similar version of the stuff, but the fact
>>that it was dangerous for their own troops, too, made it go out of
>>military fashion by the mid-to-late fifteenth century.
>
>>but marveled at the CaPhosphide, Li, Na, K, etc. Clearly the
>>Byzantines were marvelous chemists?
>
>>And their aversion to "friendly Fire" .
>
>>"Greek Fire" was probably pine-tree exudate, gathered from the
>>highlands of Macedonia.
>
>The composition of "Greek Fire" is still unknown. There were many
>versions of it, some known to and used by folks in Western Europe
>to defend castles. It was a great way to destroy a seige tower.

Pine sap/resin is very sticky & tenacious and would make a great
'Greek fire'. When climbing pine trees, it gets onto skin and into
clothes.

>
>But we have to rule out lithium, sodium, and potassium as ingredients,
>since they were not only unknown then, but could not be produced
>without the development of electrochemistry, which took place in
>modern times.

Theoretically these can be made by reduction with carbon, though only
at very high temps & with subsequent crash cooling.

[Paul J Gans]

I don't think so. If those elements were exposed to air (oxygen)
at any high temperature, they'd burn very nicely.

[Michael Kuettner]

Paul J Gans wrote:
> Peter Jason <p...@jostle.com> wrote:
>> On Wed, 21 Oct 2015 14:40:48 -0700 (PDT), David Amicus
>> <davida...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>> http://listverse.com/2013/04/20/10-interesting-facts-about-the-byzantine-empire/?utm_source=more&utm_medium=link&utm_campaign=direct
>
>> I read this to:
>
>> The ingredients of ?Greek fire? were closely guarded, but historians
>> think it was a mixture of naphtha, pitch, sulfur, lithium, potassium,
>> metallic sodium, calcium phosphide and a petroleum base. Other nations
>> eventually came up with similar version of the stuff, but the fact
>> that it was dangerous for their own troops, too, made it go out of
>> military fashion by the mid-to-late fifteenth century.
>
>> but marveled at the CaPhosphide, Li, Na, K, etc. Clearly the
>> Byzantines were marvelous chemists?
>
>> And their aversion to "friendly Fire" .
>
>> "Greek Fire" was probably pine-tree exudate, gathered from the
>> highlands of Macedonia.
>
> The composition of "Greek Fire" is still unknown. There were many
> versions of it, some known to and used by folks in Western Europe
> to defend castles. It was a great way to destroy a seige tower.
>

Yes, it's unknown.

> But we have to rule out lithium, sodium, and potassium as ingredients,
> since they were not only unknown then, but could not be produced
> without the development of electrochemistry, which took place in
> modern times.
>

Really ? How about potash (plenty of that around) and
natrium-hydroxide (plenty of that, too) ?
Those are the bases for sodium and potassium. Would they have worked ?

Cheers,

Michael Kuettner

[Peter Jason]

Pot-ash was crude KOH solution made by leaching wood/vegetable ashes.
It may have been used as a chemical weapon, but its main function was
in soap manufacture. NaOH was by displacement of KOH:
KOH + NaCl = NaOH + KCL

[Paul J Gans]

I don't think so. They would not have burned.

[SolomonW]

On Wed, 21 Oct 2015 14:40:48 -0700 (PDT), David Amicus wrote:

> http://listverse.com/2013/04/20/10-interesting-facts-about-the-byzantine-empire/?utm_source=more&utm_medium=link&utm_campaign=direct

In medieval times they were often called Romans, also I find this statement
"Additionally, the Byzantine army fought in a style which was much closer
to that of the Ancient Athenians and Spartans than that of the Roman
Legions" quite dubious.

[Tiglath]

On Wednesday, October 21, 2015 at 8:05:40 PM UTC-4, Paul J Gans wrote:

> But we have to rule out lithium, sodium, and potassium as ingredients,
> since they were not only unknown then, but could not be produced
> without the development of electrochemistry, which took place in
> modern times.

Weren't saltpeter and sodium nitrate known then?

[Paul J Gans]

The one has nothing to do with the other. The Roman Empire split into
two parts for ease of governance. One was the Western Roman Empire,
supposedly based on Rome but actually based on Ravenna. The other
was the Eastern Roman Empire, based on what was later named Constantinople.

The Eastern Roman Empire called itself Roman because it was Roman.

Fighting methods are a different thing entirely.

[Paul J Gans]

Yes, but the raw metals lithium, sodium, and potassium were not
known until (relatively) modern times.

[SolomonW]

On Sun, 25 Oct 2015 01:27:01 +0000 (UTC), Paul J Gans wrote:

> SolomonW <Solo...@citi.com> wrote:
>>On Wed, 21 Oct 2015 14:40:48 -0700 (PDT), David Amicus wrote:
>
>>> http://listverse.com/2013/04/20/10-interesting-facts-about-the-byzantine-empire/?utm_source=more&utm_medium=link&utm_campaign=direct
>
>>In medieval times they were often called Romans, also I find this statement
>>"Additionally, the Byzantine army fought in a style which was much closer
>>to that of the Ancient Athenians and Spartans than that of the Roman
>>Legions" quite dubious.
>
> The one has nothing to do with the other.

I know. I am just commenting on what was quoted.

The Roman Empire split into
> two parts for ease of governance. One was the Western Roman Empire,
> supposedly based on Rome but actually based on Ravenna. The other
> was the Eastern Roman Empire, based on what was later named Constantinople.
>
> The Eastern Roman Empire called itself Roman because it was Roman.

The point I was making was that other called them Romans.

>
> Fighting methods are a different thing entirely.

Indeed

[Robert Mulain]

This could be one of those 'what if?' occasions, that could provide interesting answers?
For instance, what I (with my knowledge of chemistry) were placed back in time, be able to do with the raw materials and apparatus available at said time?

Object: To produce a flame thrower for use in battle. A very handy item indeed...

Some sort of gunpowder would be a good start, carbon... easy, sulphur... easy, sodium or potassium nitrate... available in every ill-maintained garderobe, latrine, pissoir or privy...

For a good flamethrower though, what's needed is a nicely combustible mixture of oils, with a gaseous propellant to 'project' it ideally... though a good quality medieval, manual 'stirrup pump' would probably do? Oil mixture could be enhanced by addition of crudely distilled turpentine or even coal tar, to get some higher fractions.... and the addition of some miscible oxidant for that extra oomph perhaps?

As Paul says, no easy way to refine sodium or potassium in metallic form, but no need either?

Personally, I'd probably start with a water wheel powered refinery, to crush imported 'yellow cake', then use donkey or mule powered wooden centrifuges to extract U235 from U238, then once I had about 50 lbs of the stuff, arrange a good quality Burgundian saker or demi cannon, breech loaded, with a good, solid end plug made from 25 lb of forged U235, and a large, finely divided gunpowder charge, to fire a carefully crafted, tightly fitting 'cannonball' into said plug....

Using a very long, highest quality fuse of course... or a cheap, eager to please mercenary assistant perhaps?
It depends how ruthless you want to be I 'spose?

[Paul J Gans]

Robert Mulain <robert...@gmail.com> wrote:
>This could be one of those 'what if?' occasions, that could provide interesting answers?
>For instance, what I (with my knowledge of chemistry) were placed back in time, be able to do with the raw materials and apparatus available at said time?

>Object: To produce a flame thrower for use in battle. A very handy item indeed...

>Some sort of gunpowder would be a good start, carbon... easy, sulphur... easy, sodium or potassium nitrate... available in every ill-maintained garderobe, latrine, pissoir or privy...

>For a good flamethrower though, what's needed is a nicely combustible mixture of oils, with a gaseous propellant to 'project' it ideally... though a good quality medieval, manual 'stirrup pump' would probably do? Oil mixture could be enhanced by addition of crudely distilled turpentine or even coal tar, to get some higher fractions.... and the addition of some miscible oxidant for that extra oomph perhaps?

Your largest problem would be to identify compounds. Sulfur is relatively
easy. It is yellow (if reasonably pure) and when burned has a distinctive
odor.

Telling sodium nitrate from potassium nitrate would be rather more
difficult. Both are white crystals that are quite soluble.

Purification would be another problem.

Equipment would include a number of pottery containers, open flames,
and late in the middle ages, some glassware blown to your specification.

It took a lot of years of messing around before folks arrived at some
reasonable way to do chemical preps. Which is likely why things had
to wait until the 16th century and beyond to really get anyware.

On the other hand, the chemists of the time in fact knew a lot. It
just wasn't available in common terms.

>As Paul says, no easy way to refine sodium or potassium in metallic form, but no need either?

>Personally, I'd probably start with a water wheel powered refinery, to crush imported 'yellow cake', then use donkey or mule powered wooden centrifuges to extract U235 from U238, then once I had about 50 lbs of the stuff, arrange a good quality Burgundian saker or demi cannon, breech loaded, with a good, solid end plug made from 25 lb of forged U235, and a large, finely divided gunpowder charge, to fire a carefully crafted, tightly fitting 'cannonball' into said plug....

>Using a very long, highest quality fuse of course... or a cheap, eager to please mercenary assistant perhaps?
>It depends how ruthless you want to be I 'spose?

Good luck with all of that!

Probably the best strategy would be to "leapfrog". Just as there
were many areas in Ireland (just as an example that I've personally seen)
without home telephones, modernization meant going straight to cell
phones without ever stringing wires.

The leapfrog I'd make is to head straight for electricity by building
generators and motors.

[Robert Mulain]

I have wondered about that, but I suspect getting hard drawn copper wire with silk insulation would be very expensive and long winded? Batteries are another matter... IIRC, a great big pile of peculiar pottery 'ritual items'
were unearthed at Ur a while back which produced a volt or two when filled with vinegar or grape juice? Not sure if this is an urban myth... there was speculation they'd been used for electro plating - yet I have never seen any ancient artefact with electro plate?

As there was a huge pile of the things, perhaps a handy application would be a medieval version of 'Old Sparky', for executions? The Romans would have loved it, fortune assured!