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Shirttail cousins -- blogging's bertter
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Steve Hayes
Dec 26, 2015, 12:07:58 AM12/26/15
to
About 40 years ago an American relative used a term, "shirt-tail
cousin", that was unfamiliar to me. I did not know her well, and was
too shy to ask what she meant by it in case she took offence. Last
year I asked about it on an English usage forum, and mentioned that
she came from El Paso, Illinois, and later lived in New Orleans, to
give a clue to her dialect area, in case anyone knew about such
things. This request was treated with a great deal of rudeness by a
supercilious American, who accused me of inventing a place with a
Spanish name in Illinois, but had no reliable information on the
meaning of the term.
So yesterday I blogged about it. Since it was Christmas day, it also
seemed a suitable opportunity to post a picture of the cousin I
referred to, taken on Christmas day in 1981, and the blog post is
here.
https://t.co/pwAnayyTnF
And this brought the answer to my question. The English usage forum
just produced a great deal of acrimonious discussion with no useful
information. The blog post prompted a cousin to find the answer to my
question here:
http://www.worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-shi5.htm
Shirttail relative
"Q From Charles F Weishar: I attempted to find the source of shirttail
relative and similar expressions in Hendrickson’s encyclopedia and
your site but have found nothing. I hear the phrase used to describe a
person who is close but not actually related by blood.
A That’s roughly the meaning given in the dictionaries. It’s usually
said to refer to somebody who is a relative by marriage or is only
distantly related, such as a fourth cousin, or is a family friend with
honorary status as a relative. It’s fairly common in the USA and has
been since the 1950s or thereabouts.
Getting to the bottom of it, so to speak, may be a task beyond my
abilities from this side of the Atlantic Ocean. One dictionary of
American slang suggests it was originally southern and mid-western US
dialect. The Dictionary of American Regional English (DARE) has
examples from 1927 onwards, such as shirt-tail kin and shirt tail
cousin, as well as your form."
I have a Facebook friend whom I describe as my "step fourth
cousin-in-law once removed" (her stepfather was my wife's fourth
cousin once removed). I think I can now refer to her as a "shirttail
cousin" for short.
Maybe my mistake was Googling for "shirt-tail cousin" with a hyphen
instead of "shirttail relative", but at any rate, the blog post
produced the information I was looking for, whereas a query in the
appropriate newsgroup didn't, so I conclude that blogging's better.
--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Web: http://www.khanya.org.za/stevesig.htm
Blog: http://khanya.wordpress.com
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk
cousin", that was unfamiliar to me. I did not know her well, and was
too shy to ask what she meant by it in case she took offence. Last
year I asked about it on an English usage forum, and mentioned that
she came from El Paso, Illinois, and later lived in New Orleans, to
give a clue to her dialect area, in case anyone knew about such
things. This request was treated with a great deal of rudeness by a
supercilious American, who accused me of inventing a place with a
Spanish name in Illinois, but had no reliable information on the
meaning of the term.
So yesterday I blogged about it. Since it was Christmas day, it also
seemed a suitable opportunity to post a picture of the cousin I
referred to, taken on Christmas day in 1981, and the blog post is
here.
https://t.co/pwAnayyTnF
And this brought the answer to my question. The English usage forum
just produced a great deal of acrimonious discussion with no useful
information. The blog post prompted a cousin to find the answer to my
question here:
http://www.worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-shi5.htm
Shirttail relative
"Q From Charles F Weishar: I attempted to find the source of shirttail
relative and similar expressions in Hendrickson’s encyclopedia and
your site but have found nothing. I hear the phrase used to describe a
person who is close but not actually related by blood.
A That’s roughly the meaning given in the dictionaries. It’s usually
said to refer to somebody who is a relative by marriage or is only
distantly related, such as a fourth cousin, or is a family friend with
honorary status as a relative. It’s fairly common in the USA and has
been since the 1950s or thereabouts.
Getting to the bottom of it, so to speak, may be a task beyond my
abilities from this side of the Atlantic Ocean. One dictionary of
American slang suggests it was originally southern and mid-western US
dialect. The Dictionary of American Regional English (DARE) has
examples from 1927 onwards, such as shirt-tail kin and shirt tail
cousin, as well as your form."
I have a Facebook friend whom I describe as my "step fourth
cousin-in-law once removed" (her stepfather was my wife's fourth
cousin once removed). I think I can now refer to her as a "shirttail
cousin" for short.
Maybe my mistake was Googling for "shirt-tail cousin" with a hyphen
instead of "shirttail relative", but at any rate, the blog post
produced the information I was looking for, whereas a query in the
appropriate newsgroup didn't, so I conclude that blogging's better.
--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Web: http://www.khanya.org.za/stevesig.htm
Blog: http://khanya.wordpress.com
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk
Snidely
Dec 26, 2015, 1:36:14 AM12/26/15
to
On Friday or thereabouts, Steve Hayes asked ...
I remember the mythicalism of location being discussed with some heat,
but evidently I didn't catch the original question. I'd have been
happy to give my usage (which overlaps what you reported today), but I
certainly would not have been able to give much documentation on its
proper usage or range of appearance.
So blogging is better. May the joy of Christmas extend past the 25th
of December.
/dps
--
"That's a good sort of hectic, innit?"
" Very much so, and I'd recommend the haggis wontons."
-njm
but evidently I didn't catch the original question. I'd have been
happy to give my usage (which overlaps what you reported today), but I
certainly would not have been able to give much documentation on its
proper usage or range of appearance.
So blogging is better. May the joy of Christmas extend past the 25th
of December.
/dps
--
"That's a good sort of hectic, innit?"
" Very much so, and I'd recommend the haggis wontons."
-njm
Steve Hayes
Dec 26, 2015, 4:53:24 AM12/26/15
to
On Fri, 25 Dec 2015 22:36:10 -0800, Snidely <snide...@gmail.com>
wrote:
>> Shirttail relative
>>
>> "Q From Charles F Weishar: I attempted to find the source of shirttail
>> relative and similar expressions in Hendrickson’s encyclopedia and
>> your site but have found nothing. I hear the phrase used to describe a
>> person who is close but not actually related by blood.
>>
>> A That’s roughly the meaning given in the dictionaries. It’s usually
>> said to refer to somebody who is a relative by marriage or is only
>> distantly related, such as a fourth cousin, or is a family friend with
>> honorary status as a relative. It’s fairly common in the USA and has
>> been since the 1950s or thereabouts.
>>
>> Getting to the bottom of it, so to speak, may be a task beyond my
>> abilities from this side of the Atlantic Ocean. One dictionary of
>> American slang suggests it was originally southern and mid-western US
>> dialect. The Dictionary of American Regional English (DARE) has
>> examples from 1927 onwards, such as shirt-tail kin and shirt tail
>> cousin, as well as your form."
given in the quoted source seems to me to fit with the El Paso--New
Orleans axis -- interesting that none of the self-proclaimed AmE
experts on aue were able to detect it, but chose to spread
disinformation instead, which just goes to show how the signal/noise
ratio on aue has deteriorated over the years.
In the light of that, I'd be interested in knowing how close to that
axis you live or grew up, if the usage is familiar to you. It's a pity
you missed the original question in the midst of all the noise, since
you might have been able to answer it 15 months ago.
>So blogging is better. May the joy of Christmas extend past the 25th
>of December.
Thank you, and for you too.
wrote:
>> Shirttail relative
>>
>> "Q From Charles F Weishar: I attempted to find the source of shirttail
>> relative and similar expressions in Hendrickson’s encyclopedia and
>> your site but have found nothing. I hear the phrase used to describe a
>> person who is close but not actually related by blood.
>>
>> A That’s roughly the meaning given in the dictionaries. It’s usually
>> said to refer to somebody who is a relative by marriage or is only
>> distantly related, such as a fourth cousin, or is a family friend with
>> honorary status as a relative. It’s fairly common in the USA and has
>> been since the 1950s or thereabouts.
>>
>> Getting to the bottom of it, so to speak, may be a task beyond my
>> abilities from this side of the Atlantic Ocean. One dictionary of
>> American slang suggests it was originally southern and mid-western US
>> dialect. The Dictionary of American Regional English (DARE) has
>> examples from 1927 onwards, such as shirt-tail kin and shirt tail
>> cousin, as well as your form."
>I remember the mythicalism of location being discussed with some heat,
>but evidently I didn't catch the original question. I'd have been
>happy to give my usage (which overlaps what you reported today), but I
>certainly would not have been able to give much documentation on its
>proper usage or range of appearance.
The description of "southern and mid-western US regional dialect"
>but evidently I didn't catch the original question. I'd have been
>happy to give my usage (which overlaps what you reported today), but I
>certainly would not have been able to give much documentation on its
>proper usage or range of appearance.
given in the quoted source seems to me to fit with the El Paso--New
Orleans axis -- interesting that none of the self-proclaimed AmE
experts on aue were able to detect it, but chose to spread
disinformation instead, which just goes to show how the signal/noise
ratio on aue has deteriorated over the years.
In the light of that, I'd be interested in knowing how close to that
axis you live or grew up, if the usage is familiar to you. It's a pity
you missed the original question in the midst of all the noise, since
you might have been able to answer it 15 months ago.
>So blogging is better. May the joy of Christmas extend past the 25th
>of December.
Lewis
Dec 26, 2015, 7:08:44 AM12/26/15
to
In message <7n6s7bd728s05sdgr...@4ax.com>
As I recall, the question was answered in the original thread.
--
I never wanted to do this in the first place.
As I recall, the question was answered in the original thread.
--
I never wanted to do this in the first place.
Doug Chadduck
Dec 26, 2015, 11:03:42 AM12/26/15
to
relative" are commonly used terms. At least they were in my family. I'D
always wondered about "shirttail", versus back pocket or belt or
whatever, but supposed it came from "grab my shirttail and follow me" or
some other similar usage for a shirttail". Or as one of your blog replys
"tag-a-long". Don't remember specifically anyone who was referred to as
"shirttail" so not sure how close an association there was.
Joe Roberts
Dec 26, 2015, 12:02:39 PM12/26/15
to
Raised in southwestern Texas, I recall hearing two usages for the term
"shirt-tail" (there might have been more).
The first usage simply referred to distant relatives whom folks didn't
bother to label in the genealogical sense. For example, no one referred to
their third or fourth cousins, whether 'removed' or not, by that term. They
were simply 'shirt-tail' cousins. There was nothing derogatory in it; it
was light-hearted and for convenience in any conversation.
The second referred to a male child who looked similar to his father or who
went into same profession, as in: "he grew up on his daddy's shirttails'.
It was similar to saying "he followed in his father's footsteps".
Also I'd like to apologize for the rudeness of that supercilious American.
It was uncalled for. Hopefully he's not a shirt-tail cousin of mine.
Cheers,
Joe
"shirt-tail" (there might have been more).
The first usage simply referred to distant relatives whom folks didn't
bother to label in the genealogical sense. For example, no one referred to
their third or fourth cousins, whether 'removed' or not, by that term. They
were simply 'shirt-tail' cousins. There was nothing derogatory in it; it
was light-hearted and for convenience in any conversation.
The second referred to a male child who looked similar to his father or who
went into same profession, as in: "he grew up on his daddy's shirttails'.
It was similar to saying "he followed in his father's footsteps".
Also I'd like to apologize for the rudeness of that supercilious American.
It was uncalled for. Hopefully he's not a shirt-tail cousin of mine.
Cheers,
Joe
Steve Hayes
Dec 26, 2015, 12:28:22 PM12/26/15
to
On Sat, 26 Dec 2015 12:02:43 -0500, "Joe Roberts"
<shoreh...@att.net> wrote:
>Raised in southwestern Texas, I recall hearing two usages for the term
>"shirt-tail" (there might have been more).
>
>The first usage simply referred to distant relatives whom folks didn't
>bother to label in the genealogical sense. For example, no one referred to
>their third or fourth cousins, whether 'removed' or not, by that term. They
>were simply 'shirt-tail' cousins. There was nothing derogatory in it; it
>was light-hearted and for convenience in any conversation.
Thanks very much for the comments. It seems then that the usage is
<shoreh...@att.net> wrote:
>Raised in southwestern Texas, I recall hearing two usages for the term
>"shirt-tail" (there might have been more).
>
>The first usage simply referred to distant relatives whom folks didn't
>bother to label in the genealogical sense. For example, no one referred to
>their third or fourth cousins, whether 'removed' or not, by that term. They
>were simply 'shirt-tail' cousins. There was nothing derogatory in it; it
>was light-hearted and for convenience in any conversation.
fairly consistent, and is a convenient way of referring to someone
whom you know is related, but don't know exactly how.
>The second referred to a male child who looked similar to his father or who
>went into same profession, as in: "he grew up on his daddy's shirttails'.
>It was similar to saying "he followed in his father's footsteps".
--
Steve Hayes
Web: http://hayesgreene.wordpress.com/
http://hayesgreene.blogspot.com
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/afgen/
Steve Hayes
Dec 26, 2015, 1:05:57 PM12/26/15
to
On Sat, 26 Dec 2015 12:06:08 -0000 (UTC), Lewis
<g.k...@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> wrote:
>In message <7n6s7bd728s05sdgr...@4ax.com>
> Steve Hayes <haye...@telkomsa.net> wrote:
>> And this brought the answer to my question.
>
>As I recall, the question was answered in the original thread.
I suppose it is possible, but if so, I don't recall it with any
<g.k...@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> wrote:
>In message <7n6s7bd728s05sdgr...@4ax.com>
> Steve Hayes <haye...@telkomsa.net> wrote:
>> And this brought the answer to my question.
>
>As I recall, the question was answered in the original thread.
clarity; probably because it was obscured by the smokeskreen of
disinformation.
Steve Hayes
Dec 26, 2015, 1:09:27 PM12/26/15
to
On Sat, 26 Dec 2015 08:03:53 -0800, Doug Chadduck
<dcha...@comcast.net> wrote:
>On 12/25/2015 9:07 PM, Steve Hayes wrote:
>> http://www.worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-shi5.htm
>>
>> Shirttail relative
>>
>> "Q From Charles F Weishar: I attempted to find the source of shirttail
>> relative and similar expressions in Hendrickson’s encyclopedia and
>> your site but have found nothing. I hear the phrase used to describe a
>> person who is close but not actually related by blood.
>>
>> A That’s roughly the meaning given in the dictionaries. It’s usually
>> said to refer to somebody who is a relative by marriage or is only
>> distantly related, such as a fourth cousin, or is a family friend with
>> honorary status as a relative. It’s fairly common in the USA and has
>> been since the 1950s or thereabouts.
<dcha...@comcast.net> wrote:
>On 12/25/2015 9:07 PM, Steve Hayes wrote:
>> http://www.worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-shi5.htm
>>
>> Shirttail relative
>>
>> "Q From Charles F Weishar: I attempted to find the source of shirttail
>> relative and similar expressions in Hendrickson’s encyclopedia and
>> your site but have found nothing. I hear the phrase used to describe a
>> person who is close but not actually related by blood.
>>
>> A That’s roughly the meaning given in the dictionaries. It’s usually
>> said to refer to somebody who is a relative by marriage or is only
>> distantly related, such as a fourth cousin, or is a family friend with
>> honorary status as a relative. It’s fairly common in the USA and has
>> been since the 1950s or thereabouts.
>I'm originally from North Dakota and "shirttail cousin" or "shirttail
>relative" are commonly used terms. At least they were in my family. I'D
>always wondered about "shirttail", versus back pocket or belt or
>whatever, but supposed it came from "grab my shirttail and follow me" or
>some other similar usage for a shirttail". Or as one of your blog replys
>"tag-a-long". Don't remember specifically anyone who was referred to as
>"shirttail" so not sure how close an association there was.
Thanks; your understanding also seems consistent with that definition,
>relative" are commonly used terms. At least they were in my family. I'D
>always wondered about "shirttail", versus back pocket or belt or
>whatever, but supposed it came from "grab my shirttail and follow me" or
>some other similar usage for a shirttail". Or as one of your blog replys
>"tag-a-long". Don't remember specifically anyone who was referred to as
>"shirttail" so not sure how close an association there was.
so it's definitely a lot clearer now.
Snidely
Dec 26, 2015, 2:38:49 PM12/26/15
to
Saturday, Steve Hayes quipped:
> On Fri, 25 Dec 2015 before midnite, Snidely <snide...@gmail.com>
(grouplist trimmed)
> The description of "southern and mid-western US regional dialect"
> given in the quoted source seems to me to fit with the El Paso--New
> Orleans axis -- [...]
Oregon as a youngster. As a young adult, he eventually made his way to
NYC, where my mother was raised (German Lutheran Brooklyner). I was
born back on the West Coast.
And in fact, my first encounter with "shirttail relative" wasn't
through lots of people using it around me. It was from a passing
comment on the radio was introducing a recording of a piece by William
Bolcom, and admitted to being a shirttail relative of Bolcom's. That
puzzled me, but I asked someone (possibly one my my parental units) and
got an explanation. That explanation has been adequate for
understanding the term on few additional encounters, and I never looked
for a formal definition.
(Bolcom was born in Seattle, west of the "axis", but I don't know where
the announcer was born; the announcer was working in Portland OR back
when there was a commercial station carrying classical music (in the
evenings only, IIRC). So a long time ago.)
/dps
--
"What do you think of my cart, Miss Morland? A neat one, is not it?
Well hung: curricle-hung in fact. Come sit by me and we'll test the
springs."
(Speculative fiction by H.Lacedaemonian.)
> On Fri, 25 Dec 2015 before midnite, Snidely <snide...@gmail.com>
(grouplist trimmed)
> The description of "southern and mid-western US regional dialect"
> given in the quoted source seems to me to fit with the El Paso--New
> In the light of that, I'd be interested in knowing how close to that
> axis you live or grew up, if the usage is familiar to you. It's a pity
> you missed the original question in the midst of all the noise, since
> you might have been able to answer it 15 months ago.
>
>
Not very close at all. My dad started in Toledo, Ohio, but moved to
> axis you live or grew up, if the usage is familiar to you. It's a pity
> you missed the original question in the midst of all the noise, since
> you might have been able to answer it 15 months ago.
>
>
Oregon as a youngster. As a young adult, he eventually made his way to
NYC, where my mother was raised (German Lutheran Brooklyner). I was
born back on the West Coast.
And in fact, my first encounter with "shirttail relative" wasn't
through lots of people using it around me. It was from a passing
comment on the radio was introducing a recording of a piece by William
Bolcom, and admitted to being a shirttail relative of Bolcom's. That
puzzled me, but I asked someone (possibly one my my parental units) and
got an explanation. That explanation has been adequate for
understanding the term on few additional encounters, and I never looked
for a formal definition.
(Bolcom was born in Seattle, west of the "axis", but I don't know where
the announcer was born; the announcer was working in Portland OR back
when there was a commercial station carrying classical music (in the
evenings only, IIRC). So a long time ago.)
/dps
--
"What do you think of my cart, Miss Morland? A neat one, is not it?
Well hung: curricle-hung in fact. Come sit by me and we'll test the
springs."
(Speculative fiction by H.Lacedaemonian.)
John Dawkins
Dec 26, 2015, 3:45:34 PM12/26/15
to
In article <47os7b9gp645lh3t4...@4ax.com>,
I grew up about 60 miles to the east of that axis, in a town once known
as "The Home of Chuckles" (a sort of jellied candy, not a clown).
Although I had plenty of cousins, of the shirt-tail variety and
otherwise, I don't recall the term as being in common use.
--
J.
as "The Home of Chuckles" (a sort of jellied candy, not a clown).
Although I had plenty of cousins, of the shirt-tail variety and
otherwise, I don't recall the term as being in common use.
--
J.
![Peter Duncanson [BrE]'s profile photo](http://lh3.googleusercontent.com/a-/ALV-UjU1GGYFBCZgBCNB-pRgkosMu-ej0qpnECw3jc8uGYOTiF8a=s40-c)
Peter Duncanson [BrE]
Dec 26, 2015, 4:22:04 PM12/26/15
to
On Sat, 26 Dec 2015 12:06:08 -0000 (UTC), Lewis
<g.k...@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> wrote:
<g.k...@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> wrote:
>In message <7n6s7bd728s05sdgr...@4ax.com>
> Steve Hayes <haye...@telkomsa.net> wrote:
>> And this brought the answer to my question.
>
>As I recall, the question was answered in the original thread.
I recall responsing to the matter of the existence of El Paso, Illinois,
> Steve Hayes <haye...@telkomsa.net> wrote:
>> And this brought the answer to my question.
>
>As I recall, the question was answered in the original thread.
but I don't recall any discussion of "shirt-tail cousin".
The OED has in the entry for "shirt, n.":
shirt-tail n.
(a) the tail of a shirt;
(b) U.S. used attrib. or as adj. to designate something small and
insignificant, or a remote relationship; freq. as shirt-tail boy n.
a very young boy.
1845 J. J. Hooper Some Adventures Simon Suggs 13 From the time
he was a ‘shirt-tail boy’, [his wits] were always too sharp for
his father's.
1846 W. D. Stewart & J. W. Webb Altowan I. vi. 174 He..leaped
into the river,..and made a shirt-tail across the prairie on the
other side.
1873 C. G. Leland Egyptian Sketch-bk. 47 Rushing madly about,
their blue-and-white shirt-tails waving in the wind.
1878 J. C. Guild Old Times in Tennessee 411, I traversed these
granite hills and beautiful vales as a shirt-tail boy.
1929 W. Faulkner Sound & Fury 256 My people owned slaves here
when you all were running little shirt tail country stores.
1938 M. K. Rawlings Yearling xxxiii. 421 Nobody but your
folks'll bother with a little ol' shirt-tail boy like you.
1941 Amer. Speech 16 24/2 Shirt-tail kin, a remote relationship.
1975 Publishers Weekly 8 Sept. 57/2 A shirttail relation of the
hotel-owning branch of the family.
{This entry has not yet been fully updated (first published 1914).}
--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)
CDB
Dec 27, 2015, 9:05:00 AM12/27/15
to
On 26/12/2015 12:02 PM, Joe Roberts wrote:
> Raised in southwestern Texas, I recall hearing two usages for the
> term "shirt-tail" (there might have been more).
> The first usage simply referred to distant relatives whom folks
> didn't bother to label in the genealogical sense. For example, no
> one referred to their third or fourth cousins, whether 'removed' or
> not, by that term. They were simply 'shirt-tail' cousins. There was
> nothing derogatory in it; it was light-hearted and for convenience in
> any conversation.
> The second referred to a male child who looked similar to his father
> or who went into same profession, as in: "he grew up on his daddy's
> shirttails'. It was similar to saying "he followed in his father's
> footsteps".
I've been wondering about its similarity to the political use of
> Raised in southwestern Texas, I recall hearing two usages for the
> term "shirt-tail" (there might have been more).
> The first usage simply referred to distant relatives whom folks
> didn't bother to label in the genealogical sense. For example, no
> one referred to their third or fourth cousins, whether 'removed' or
> not, by that term. They were simply 'shirt-tail' cousins. There was
> nothing derogatory in it; it was light-hearted and for convenience in
> any conversation.
> The second referred to a male child who looked similar to his father
> or who went into same profession, as in: "he grew up on his daddy's
> shirttails'. It was similar to saying "he followed in his father's
> footsteps".
"coat-tails", where a candidate wins election because of his or her
association with another, very popular, candidate. In the OP's case, a
distant connection or a connection by marriage would be a relative
because of being related to another, closer connection. In your second
use, the male child would be drawn into his father's appearance or
behaviour by that close connection.
Does that fit with your intuition as a user of the expression?
And a couple of questions more, if you will:
Are female children ever said to follow after their mothers, using any
similar expression?
Is there an accepted division of relatives into "shirt-tail cousins" and
"kissing cousins"?
> Also I'd like to apologize for the rudeness of that supercilious
> American. It was uncalled for. Hopefully he's not a shirt-tail
> cousin of mine.
Anyway, we have some of our own.
Steve Hayes
Dec 27, 2015, 9:56:47 AM12/27/15
to
On Sun, 27 Dec 2015 09:04:52 -0500, CDB <belle...@gmail.com> wrote:
>On 26/12/2015 12:02 PM, Joe Roberts wrote:
>
>> Raised in southwestern Texas, I recall hearing two usages for the
>> term "shirt-tail" (there might have been more).
>
>> The first usage simply referred to distant relatives whom folks
>> didn't bother to label in the genealogical sense. For example, no
>> one referred to their third or fourth cousins, whether 'removed' or
>> not, by that term. They were simply 'shirt-tail' cousins. There was
>> nothing derogatory in it; it was light-hearted and for convenience in
>> any conversation.
>
>> The second referred to a male child who looked similar to his father
>> or who went into same profession, as in: "he grew up on his daddy's
>> shirttails'. It was similar to saying "he followed in his father's
>> footsteps".
>
>I've been wondering about its similarity to the political use of
>"coat-tails", where a candidate wins election because of his or her
>association with another, very popular, candidate. In the OP's case, a
>distant connection or a connection by marriage would be a relative
>because of being related to another, closer connection. In your second
>use, the male child would be drawn into his father's appearance or
>behaviour by that close connection.
The coat-tails usage has been familiar to me for a long time, and I've
>On 26/12/2015 12:02 PM, Joe Roberts wrote:
>
>> Raised in southwestern Texas, I recall hearing two usages for the
>> term "shirt-tail" (there might have been more).
>
>> The first usage simply referred to distant relatives whom folks
>> didn't bother to label in the genealogical sense. For example, no
>> one referred to their third or fourth cousins, whether 'removed' or
>> not, by that term. They were simply 'shirt-tail' cousins. There was
>> nothing derogatory in it; it was light-hearted and for convenience in
>> any conversation.
>
>> The second referred to a male child who looked similar to his father
>> or who went into same profession, as in: "he grew up on his daddy's
>> shirttails'. It was similar to saying "he followed in his father's
>> footsteps".
>
>I've been wondering about its similarity to the political use of
>"coat-tails", where a candidate wins election because of his or her
>association with another, very popular, candidate. In the OP's case, a
>distant connection or a connection by marriage would be a relative
>because of being related to another, closer connection. In your second
>use, the male child would be drawn into his father's appearance or
>behaviour by that close connection.
understood it with that meaning.
>Does that fit with your intuition as a user of the expression?
>
>And a couple of questions more, if you will:
>
>Are female children ever said to follow after their mothers, using any
>similar expression?
>
>Is there an accepted division of relatives into "shirt-tail cousins" and
>"kissing cousins"?
cousins, but I've never been sure of the meaning.
It seems to me it could mean:
1. Close cousins that you know and have grown up with , and greet with
a kiss, like uncles and aunts, as opposed to more distant cousins who
need a formal introduction because you don't know them at all.
or
2. Cousins sufficiently distant that you are able to marry them
without offending the mores and customs and possibly laws of your
society.
I think that too was discussed on alt.usage.english at one point,
though I don't recaqll any firm conclusion.
Joe Roberts
Dec 27, 2015, 10:54:12 AM12/27/15
to
"CDB" <belle...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:n5or69$4ss$1...@speranza.aioe.org...
> On 26/12/2015 12:02 PM, Joe Roberts wrote:
>
>> Raised in southwestern Texas, I recall hearing two usages for the
>> term "shirt-tail" (there might have been more).
>
>> The first usage simply referred to distant relatives whom folks
>> didn't bother to label in the genealogical sense. For example, no
>> one referred to their third or fourth cousins, whether 'removed' or
>> not, by that term. They were simply 'shirt-tail' cousins. There was
>> nothing derogatory in it; it was light-hearted and for convenience in
>> any conversation.
>
>> The second referred to a male child who looked similar to his father
>> or who went into same profession, as in: "he grew up on his daddy's
>> shirttails'. It was similar to saying "he followed in his father's
>> footsteps".
>
> I've been wondering about its similarity to the political use of
> "coat-tails", where a candidate wins election because of his or her
> association with another, very popular, candidate. In the OP's case, a
> distant connection or a connection by marriage would be a relative
> because of being related to another, closer connection. In your second
> use, the male child would be drawn into his father's appearance or
> behaviour by that close connection.
>
> Does that fit with your intuition as a user of the expression?
Yes, indeed.
>
>> Raised in southwestern Texas, I recall hearing two usages for the
>> term "shirt-tail" (there might have been more).
>
>> The first usage simply referred to distant relatives whom folks
>> didn't bother to label in the genealogical sense. For example, no
>> one referred to their third or fourth cousins, whether 'removed' or
>> not, by that term. They were simply 'shirt-tail' cousins. There was
>> nothing derogatory in it; it was light-hearted and for convenience in
>> any conversation.
>
>> The second referred to a male child who looked similar to his father
>> or who went into same profession, as in: "he grew up on his daddy's
>> shirttails'. It was similar to saying "he followed in his father's
>> footsteps".
>
> I've been wondering about its similarity to the political use of
> "coat-tails", where a candidate wins election because of his or her
> association with another, very popular, candidate. In the OP's case, a
> distant connection or a connection by marriage would be a relative
> because of being related to another, closer connection. In your second
> use, the male child would be drawn into his father's appearance or
> behaviour by that close connection.
>
> Does that fit with your intuition as a user of the expression?
>
> And a couple of questions more, if you will:
>
> Are female children ever said to follow after their mothers, using any
> similar expression?
"apron strings".
... Er, there's a bit of sexism in that ... now it might be becoming
socially incorrect.
>
> Is there an accepted division of relatives into "shirt-tail cousins" and
> "kissing cousins"?
opinions on that between the ones talking and the ones being talked about.
>
>> Also I'd like to apologize for the rudeness of that supercilious
>> American. It was uncalled for. Hopefully he's not a shirt-tail
>> cousin of mine.
>
> One of yours? Didn't see anything that called for embarrassment. Anyway,
> we have some of our own.
course.
... What, never? No, never! What, never? Well ..... hardly ever.
Cheers,
Joe
CDB
Dec 27, 2015, 12:32:43 PM12/27/15
to
On 27/12/2015 10:54 AM, Joe Roberts wrote:
Thanks. I thought of apron-strings, but I didn't want to prompt a response.
>> Is there an accepted division of relatives into "shirt-tail
>> cousins" and "kissing cousins"?
> Get a bunch of cousins together, and I'll bet there'll be some
> differing opinions on that between the ones talking and the ones
> being talked about.
>>> Also I'd like to apologize for the rudeness of that supercilious
>>> American. It was uncalled for. Hopefully he's not a shirt-tail
>>> cousin of mine.
>> One of yours? Didn't see anything that called for embarrassment.
>> Anyway, we have some of our own.
> Oh, no, no, never ... We have only the nicest apples on our family
> tree, of course.
> ... What, never? No, never! What, never? Well ..... hardly ever.
I don't doubt it, even without the disclaimer. By "yours" I meant only
"posting from one of the genealogy groups listed above", where I presume
you hang out too.
>> Is there an accepted division of relatives into "shirt-tail
>> cousins" and "kissing cousins"?
> Get a bunch of cousins together, and I'll bet there'll be some
> differing opinions on that between the ones talking and the ones
> being talked about.
>>> Also I'd like to apologize for the rudeness of that supercilious
>>> American. It was uncalled for. Hopefully he's not a shirt-tail
>>> cousin of mine.
>> One of yours? Didn't see anything that called for embarrassment.
>> Anyway, we have some of our own.
> Oh, no, no, never ... We have only the nicest apples on our family
> tree, of course.
> ... What, never? No, never! What, never? Well ..... hardly ever.
"posting from one of the genealogy groups listed above", where I presume
you hang out too.
Joe Roberts
Dec 27, 2015, 4:16:26 PM12/27/15
to
"CDB" wrote:
>>> Joe Roberts wrote:
>
>> We have only the nicest apples on our family
>> tree, of course.
>
> I don't doubt it, even without the disclaimer. By "yours" I meant only
> "posting from one of the genealogy groups listed above", where I presume
> you hang out too.
Well, we do have a couple of apples who might be politely excluded from
> "posting from one of the genealogy groups listed above", where I presume
> you hang out too.
baking in the family pie. But then, in family discussions, we could
disburden ourselves by using the term "shirt-tail" cousins, thereby
maintaining a discreet distance.
Cheers,
Joe
Steve Hayes
Dec 27, 2015, 8:22:35 PM12/27/15
to
apron strings".
Janet
Dec 28, 2015, 7:40:43 AM12/28/15
to
In article <0i318b96vh150icbv...@4ax.com>,
haye...@telkomsa.net says...
+1. Or "she needs to cut the apron strings " meaning, Mother needs to
let her son grow up and be independent.
Janet.
haye...@telkomsa.net says...
let her son grow up and be independent.
Janet.
Rich Ulrich
Dec 28, 2015, 1:04:45 PM12/28/15
to
On Mon, 28 Dec 2015 12:40:37 -0000, Janet <nob...@home.org> wrote:
>
> +1. Or "she needs to cut the apron strings " meaning, Mother needs to
>let her son grow up and be independent.
Long ago, in a book by a social anthropologist, I was struck
>
> +1. Or "she needs to cut the apron strings " meaning, Mother needs to
>let her son grow up and be independent.
by the observation that one of the biggest differences
between societies was how much they expected sons to
remain attached to the apron strings, all their lives.
It occurs to me today that I do not recollect there being
evidence in that book about that. And I don't think of
other evidence grabbing my attention in all the years since then.
Does anybody admire apron strings?
--
Rich Ulrich
Cheryl
Dec 28, 2015, 2:19:57 PM12/28/15
to
level of care and attention a son pays to his mother is considered
appropriate, he's a good son. If they're considered excessive, he's tied
to her apron strings. I expect exactly the same behaviour would be
considered either proper love and attention from a son or signs of apron
strings in different cultures, or even different families. There's also
the way in which closeness is expressed - in some cultures, the son is
expected to defer to the matriarch, who rules everything inside the
home. In others, the son is expected to care for the mother more as a
dependent child - even when she isn't in need of that type of care, for
example, due to illness.
And some mothers favour sons over daughters, and are much inclined to
keep them close and, their daughters would say, spoiled, while expecting
actual help from the daughters.
What's the old saying - something about a son is your son until he takes
him a wife; a daughter is a daughter all your life? That comes from
people among whom the son is supposed to break the apron strings - and
maybe attach himself to his wife's.
--
Cheryl
---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus
Steve Hayes
Dec 28, 2015, 11:10:10 PM12/28/15
to
come to mind.
One of my favourite films was "Morgan, a suitable case for treatment".
It was made in the 1960s, and is about a bloke from a working-class
London family who tries to win back his rich estranged wife. He lives
with his mother in a small flat, all over nostalgic socialist posters.
She is sad and somewhat resigned to the difficulties of life.
One evening in Florence, being at a loose end, I went to see it again.
It had been dubbed into Italian, which changed that characters
completely. The mother had turned into a strident termagant, with the
son tied to her apron strings. At least that's what it sounded like to
me, simply from the change in the tone of the voices.
Peter Moylan
Dec 28, 2015, 11:14:09 PM12/28/15
to
On 2015-Dec-28 12:22, Steve Hayes wrote:
> On Sun, 27 Dec 2015 10:54:13 -0500, "Joe Roberts"
> <shoreh...@att.net> wrote:
>
>>
>> "CDB" <belle...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:n5or69$4ss$1...@speranza.aioe.org...
> On Sun, 27 Dec 2015 10:54:13 -0500, "Joe Roberts"
> <shoreh...@att.net> wrote:
>
>>
>> "CDB" <belle...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:n5or69$4ss$1...@speranza.aioe.org...
>>> Are female children ever said to follow after their mothers, using any
>>> similar expression?
>>
>> A similar one is for a daughter who comes along into life on her mother's
>> "apron strings".
>>
>> ... Er, there's a bit of sexism in that ... now it might be becoming
>> socially incorrect.
>
> I've usually heard that applied to males -- "He's tied to his mother's
> apron strings".
That's nothing to do with similarity of appearance or character, though.
>>> similar expression?
>>
>> A similar one is for a daughter who comes along into life on her mother's
>> "apron strings".
>>
>> ... Er, there's a bit of sexism in that ... now it might be becoming
>> socially incorrect.
>
> I've usually heard that applied to males -- "He's tied to his mother's
> apron strings".
The mother probably uses a different apron for that.
Did the TV series "Mother and Son" ever make it out of this country? If
you can find it, watch it, because it's both funny and sad. The
principal male character can never hang on to a girlfriend because of
interference by his demanding and slightly demented mother.
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia
RH Draney
Dec 29, 2015, 12:52:57 AM12/29/15
to
On 12/28/2015 9:09 PM, Steve Hayes wrote:
>
> One of my favourite films was "Morgan, a suitable case for treatment".
> It was made in the 1960s, and is about a bloke from a working-class
> London family who tries to win back his rich estranged wife. He lives
> with his mother in a small flat, all over nostalgic socialist posters.
> She is sad and somewhat resigned to the difficulties of life.
>
> One evening in Florence, being at a loose end, I went to see it again.
> It had been dubbed into Italian, which changed that characters
> completely. The mother had turned into a strident termagant, with the
> son tied to her apron strings. At least that's what it sounded like to
> me, simply from the change in the tone of the voices.
I had a similar experience with "Crouching Tiger, Hidden
>
> One of my favourite films was "Morgan, a suitable case for treatment".
> It was made in the 1960s, and is about a bloke from a working-class
> London family who tries to win back his rich estranged wife. He lives
> with his mother in a small flat, all over nostalgic socialist posters.
> She is sad and somewhat resigned to the difficulties of life.
>
> One evening in Florence, being at a loose end, I went to see it again.
> It had been dubbed into Italian, which changed that characters
> completely. The mother had turned into a strident termagant, with the
> son tied to her apron strings. At least that's what it sounded like to
> me, simply from the change in the tone of the voices.
Dragon"...having first seen it in Mandarin with English subtitles, I was
shocked when I heard the voice they used to dub Michelle Yeoh's
character...instead of the slightly world-weary tone I had heard in the
theater, she came off as a nagging fishwife....r
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