"Verch" and "Ferch" for Daughter of
Cheryl McGraw
I've seen two different ways the Welsh designated "daughter of"...Verch
and Ferch. Are both of these correct? If so, what are the rules
governing which is used? Thanks.
--
Cheryl McGraw
cmc...@uakron.edu
http://w3.gwis.com/~cmcgraw/family
Sara M White
The word in Welsh meaning girl and daughter is "merch". However, the Welsh
language uses (amongst other grammatical forms strange to the English speaker)
consonantal mutation, ie: the initial letter of a word is changed according to
the word which preceeds it, giving verch and, in modern orthography, ferch.
Verch is very often written in the abbreviationed form of "vz" and
colloquially could also be given as "ach".
There is very good coverage of lentition, patronymics and nicknames in Welsh
in "Welsh Surnames" by T J Morgan and Prys Morgan published by University of
Wales Press 1985 ISBN 0-70830-880-5.
SMW
----------
From: Medieval Genealogy Discussion List on behalf of Cheryl McGraw
Sent: 31 January 1997 15:23
To: GEN-ME...@MAIL.EWORLD.COM
Subject: "Verch" and "Ferch" for Daughter of
Norma Rudinsky
Could someone please explain the word "vach" after a man's name in a 1704
A.D. pedigree?
We have no other info except that he moved from "North Wales" to
Abergwlly in 15th century, and his name was "Prichard" by 1704, and his
wife was "NN Wyn from North Wales." So we haven't much to go on. He may
have been (or became) a clothier or a cloth merchant in Abergwlly, and
one of his ggrandsons was Samuel Hughes, the editor (and re-creator?) of
the poems of the Vicar of Landovery.
Some one just wrote of a good book on Welsh names, nicknames, etc, and
perhaps that answers this question, but in the meantime before I can find
the book ....
Thanks very much.
Norma Rudinsky
Chris Pitt-Lewis
In article <Pine.OSF.3.91.970202...@ucs.orst.edu>,
Norma Rudinsky <rudi...@ucs.orst.edu> writes
Literally it means "little"; it is a form of the word "bach". Often used
in pedigrees as an equivalent of "junior" or "the younger". But it could
also just be a nickname.
--
Chris Pitt-Lewis
tomco...@aol.com
Bach is Welsh for small or little. So could be equivalent of USA junior.
Bach may mutate to fach pronounced as vach.
John Hitchon non-welsh speaker. Ask a Welshman please.
Glyn Jones
In message <Pine.OSF.3.91.970202...@ucs.orst.edu>
Norma Rudinsky <rudi...@ucs.orst.edu> writes:
> Could someone please explain the word "vach" after a man's name in a 1704
> A.D. pedigree?
> We have no other info except that he moved from "North Wales" to
> Abergwlly in 15th century, and his name was "Prichard" by 1704, and his
> wife was "NN Wyn from North Wales." So we haven't much to go on. He may
> have been (or became) a clothier or a cloth merchant in Abergwlly, and
> one of his ggrandsons was Samuel Hughes, the editor (and re-creator?) of
> the poems of the Vicar of Landovery.
> Some one just wrote of a good book on Welsh names, nicknames, etc, and
> perhaps that answers this question, but in the meantime before I can find
> the book ....
> Thanks very much.
> Norma Rudinsky
Norma,
There is no"v" in Welsh although with English clerks, this crept in.
The correct modern form would be "fach" pronounced the same. It
simply meams "small". Usually, the word "fychan" - smaller or lesser
would be used, later corrupted to Vaughan. If the same name occurred
in successive generations, the addition Fychan would frequently be
added to the younger one, to reduce confusion. NB It does NOT refer
to physical stature.
Glyn
--
Glyn Jones FRPS
Join the Royal Photographic Society
Glyn Jones
In message <32F20E...@uakron.edu>
Cheryl McGraw <cmc...@UAKRON.EDU> writes:
> I've seen two different ways the Welsh designated "daughter of"...Verch
> and Ferch. Are both of these correct? If so, what are the rules
> governing which is used? Thanks.
> --
> Cheryl McGraw
Cheryl,
Ferch is the correct one. There is no V in Welsh. A single F is
pronounced as a v is. This probably arose because the clerks who
wrote out medieval documents were English and were unaware of Welsh differnces.
I suppose one should refer to and quote old documents, exactly as
they were written but present Welsh is Ferch.
Norma Rudinsky
Thanks to all of you for the info on "fach". If it means "junior," can we
infer that his father was also William Prichard, i.e. Wm ap Richard, and
that his grandfather was Richard ap (whatever)?
Also, my previous note on his arrival in Abergwlly in "15th century" was
a typo -- I meant "16th century." So is it possible if not likely
that "Prichard" was already his name in North Wales?
If so, then it seems odd to me that his two sons [presumably in
Abergwlly] do not seem to have felt the name Prichard was stable.
One of these sons, named Hugh, had a son who became "John
Hughes mayor of Carmarthen in 1650," and the other son, named Richard, had a
son "John ap Richard" whose daughter was NN Prichard by the time she married
Oakley Leigh by the late 1660s. Her Prichard name seems to come from her
father ap Richard or Prichard (both occur), rather than from her
great-grandfather William Prichard fach from North Wales.
Obviously we're trying to find a way to search for this William and his
wife NN Wyn among the many of those names in North Wales, with no more
specific location to go on. Any suggestions?
Norma Leigh Rudinsky
Kira Hanner-Cath
In article <199702051...@zetnet.co.uk>,
Glyn Jones <glyn...@zetnet.co.uk> wrote:
>Ferch is the correct one. There is no V in Welsh. A single F is
>pronounced as a v is. This probably arose because the clerks who
>wrote out medieval documents were English and were unaware of Welsh
)differnces.
>I suppose one should refer to and quote old documents, exactly as
>they were written but present Welsh is Ferch.
>
This is true, in modern Welsh. However, Middle Welsh spelling was about
as variable as any other medieval language you may care to name, and the
/v/ sound was often rendered as "v".
At any rate, the two are pronounced the same. Ferch is the "correct" one
for modern Welsh - not that many modern Welsh folk use that style of
naming! :) (who knows, it may make a comeback...)
Kira Moore