More DNA twists in the Plantagenet family

[W David Samuelsen via]

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015/mar/25/richard-iii-dna-tests-uncover-evidence-of-further-royal-scandal

[taf]

On Tuesday, December 22, 2015 at 9:11:28 AM UTC-8, W David Samuelsen via wrote:
> http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015/mar/25/richard-iii-dna-tests-uncover-evidence-of-further-royal-scandal

Hard to evaluate this. Does Patrice de Warren have anything but wishful thinking behind his claim?

taf

[taf]

"More likely than not, the freshly-discovered break in the male line occurred in the 22 generations that separate Patrice de Warren from Geoffrey, Count of Anjou."

More likely than not, the pedigree that is being touted by Patrice de Warren as giving him a Plantagenet descent is bogus, not due to a crypto-paternity event but due to bad/sloppy/fraudulent genealogy.

taf

[Richard Smith]

On 22/12/15 17:11, W David Samuelsen via wrote:
> http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015/mar/25/richard-iii-dna-tests-uncover-evidence-of-further-royal-scandal

Very interesting. Unfortunately the research appears not to have been
published yet, at least not in a paper co-authored by Turi King. The
press release from Leicester University is here, but contains little
more of interest:

http://www2.le.ac.uk/offices/press/press-releases/2015/march/research-by-dr-turi-king-university-of-leicester-geneticist-into-the-ancestry-of-king-richard-iii

The linked genealogy is woefully inadequate: Patrice de Warren ... 22
unspecified generations ... Geoffrey, Count of Anjou & Maine. That
tells me nothing I couldn't have guessed from the surname.

Nor is Patrice's haplogroup given.

However, while browsing Dr King's webpages, I came across a project
funded by the Leverhulme Trust and others to sequence Richard III's full
genome and publish it online.

http://www2.le.ac.uk/departments/genetics/people/king/the-king-s-dna

This should give a much clearer indication of Richard III's haplotype
than G-P287 (G2 in ISOGG 2015 notation) which is all that's currently
published, which may finally stop this nonsense about the Alans.

Richard

[taf]

On Tuesday, December 22, 2015 at 9:39:26 AM UTC-8, Richard Smith wrote:

> However, while browsing Dr King's webpages, I came across a project
> funded by the Leverhulme Trust and others to sequence Richard III's full
> genome and publish it online.
>
> http://www2.le.ac.uk/departments/genetics/people/king/the-king-s-dna

There is actually a lot more to be learned from this than just the male line. In particular, by looking for islands of shared homozygosity between his chromosomes, it would allow illuminate the genetic consequences of inbreeding in his pedigree (he had three lines of descent from Edward III and Philippa of Hainault, so I would expect a high degree of homozygosity - of perfectly matching sequence in both copies - over large stretches).

> This should give a much clearer indication of Richard III's haplotype
> than G-P287 (G2 in ISOGG 2015 notation) which is all that's currently
> published, which may finally stop this nonsense about the Alans.

Or confirm it.

taf

[Richard Smith]

On 22/12/15 17:52, taf wrote:

>> This should give a much clearer indication of Richard III's haplotype
>> than G-P287 (G2 in ISOGG 2015 notation) which is all that's currently
>> published, which may finally stop this nonsense about the Alans.
>
> Or confirm it.

Well ... if it confirms it, it'll stop being *nonsense* about the Alans.
:-)

Richard

[Ian Goddard]

On 22/12/15 17:39, Richard Smith wrote:
> which may finally stop this nonsense about the Alans.

Hope springs eternal!

--
Hotmail is my spam bin. Real address is ianng
at austonley org uk

[Bronwen Edwards]

Then it would appear that we need to look at that John of Gaunt thing....

[Peter Stewart via]

The wishful thinking in this case perhaps goes back to the mid-19th
century - see https://books.google.com.au/books?id=cs9tQwAACAAJ&dq.

I haven't seen this: it may well turn out to be just another
social-climber's fantasy of the type that was common at the time.

Peter Stewart

[Peter Stewart via]

On 23/12/2015 10:22 AM, Peter Stewart via wrote:

> The wishful thinking in this case perhaps goes back to the mid-19th
> century - see https://books.google.com.au/books?id=cs9tQwAACAAJ&dq.
>
> I haven't seen this: it may well turn out to be just another
> social-climber's fantasy of the type that was common at the time.
>

More information can be found here:
http://www.plant-fhg.org.uk/articles/0405report.pdf

See p. 7:

"Hamelin Plantagenet, 5th Comte de Warren had William, 6th Comte de
Warren et Surrey who had Jean, 7th Comte de Warren et Surrey who had a
younger son Sir Edouard de Warren who removed to Ireland and had a son
Nicholas Warrren, Esq. who had a son William Warren, Esq. who, in
exchange for one of his English domains received Corduff Castle which
remained in the family until the 19th c. Upon the death of the 8th Earl
in England the Earldom of Surrey passed into the Arundel family while
the Norman title, Comte de Warren passed de jure to William of Corduff,
Co. Dublin. He had Edward Warren Esq. of Corduff Castle who had Richard
Warren, Esq. of Corduff Castle who had Edward Warren, Esq. of Corduff
Castle who had John Warren, Esq. of Corduff Castle who had Nicholas
Warren, Esq. of Corduff and Seatown who had Thomas Warren, Esq. of
Corduff and Clonestorke who had Nicholas Warren, Esq. of Corduff, Swords
and Sillock had Edward Warren of Corduff, Swords, Sillock and Seatown,
Gent. who was a Jacobite and who after the Boyne removed to France as
did many of the Irish nobility and entered into the service of the Duke
of Lorraine and in recognition of his direct descent from the earls of
Warren was given letters patent as Comte Edouard de Warren and had
Francois Joseph Patrice, comte de Warren who had Jean Baptist, comte de
Warren who had Edouard Francois Patrice, comte de Warren who had Lucien
Adolphe Esprit, comte de Warren who had Edouard Francois Patrice, comte
de Warren who had Marc Marie Edouard, comte de Warren who had William
Marie Georges Edouard Emmanuel, the present comte de Warren of chateau
de et a Fontaine de Chaalis b. 1936 his son Count Laurent Marie Francois
de Warren will succeed him as head of the this ancient House."

Ho hobbledy hum. I think the first break occurs at "Sir Edouard de
Warren who removed to Ireland".

Peter Stewart

[Richard Smith]

On 22/12/15 23:22, Peter Stewart via wrote:

> The wishful thinking in this case perhaps goes back to the mid-19th
> century - see https://books.google.com.au/books?id=cs9tQwAACAAJ&dq.

I don't suppose anyone's had any luck finding that on archive.org,
mocavo.org or similar? I failed. Google Books generally doesn't make
the content of old books like this available to users in the UK. It's a
real pain.

Richard

[taf]

Not this book, which is not available in the USA either, but the same family has received treatment in English:

http://catalog.hathitrust.org/Record/100784103

A history and genealogy of the Warren family in Normandy, Great Britain and Ireland, France, Holland, Tuscany, United States of America, etc. (A.D. 912-1902) with numerous pedigrees

taf

[taf]

I will add that while this book has the Irish line descend, as claimed, from Edward, younger son of the 7th Earl, it gives them the same arms as Warren of Poynton (blue and gold checked, a silver lion rampant on a red canton), where the name Edward was also used at this time. I have to wonder if the Irish line didn't share the same derivation as the Poynton Warrens.

Still, you say, this would be the same Plantagenet blood, but not so fast. The same book suggests that the Warren of Poynton line did not descend from the 8th Earl's liaison, but instead descended from a younger son of the second Earl (which would give them a non-Plantagenet male line).

(Of course, the above is predicated on the Irish line having any validity back to their supposed founder, Edward.)

taf

[Peter Stewart via]

The story of this Edward and the alleged line of descent from him starts
on pp. 194-195:

"John, seventh Earl of Warren and Surrey, married, as his second wife,
Joan, daughter of William Lord Mowbray, by whom he had a third son,
Edward, called Sir Edward in the Latin pedigree of the College of Arms,
England.
This Sir Edward Warren was the first of his family who settled in
Ireland, about A.D. 1310, when he was only seventeen years of age, or
thereabouts. He married, about 1315, Anne, daughter of John Bremingham,
Earl of Lowth, by his wife Mary Anne, daughter of Sir John Netterville
and his wife Philadolphia, daughter of Hugh de Lacy, Chief Justice of
Ireland. Sir Edward charged his checky shield with a canton gules
bearing a lion rampant argent, his mother's cognizance, to distinguish
the family from that of John, the eighth Earl of Warren and Surrey. He
had by his wife Anne, a son -
Nicholas Warren, Esq., who married Dorothy, daughter of Sir
Christopher D'Arcy of Platten, Co. Meath (there may have been other
issue of this and other generations at this remote period, but the
direct descent in one line is only given, till we come to the 16th
century, or thereabouts), and had, by Dorothy, a son -
William Warren, Esq., of Corduff, Co. Dublin, born about the year
1335, who upon the death of John, eighth Earl of Warren and Surrey, in
1347, without lawful issue, was the legitimate heir to the honours of
this ancient earldom. In exchange for one of his English domains,
William acquired the manor of Corduff, which remained in the family till
the beginning of the 19th century. He married Mary (or Anne), daughter
of John Hussey, Baron of Galtrim, by whom he had a son ..."

Does anyone know if, and where, this picks up verifiable information?

Peter Stewart

[taf]

On Tuesday, December 22, 2015 at 6:14:26 PM UTC-8, Peter Stewart wrote:

> The story of this Edward and the alleged line of descent from him starts
> on pp. 194-195:
>
> "John, seventh Earl of Warren and Surrey, married, as his second wife,
> Joan, daughter of William Lord Mowbray, by whom he had a third son,
> Edward, called Sir Edward in the Latin pedigree of the College of Arms,
> England.
> This Sir Edward Warren was the first of his family who settled in
> Ireland, about A.D. 1310, when he was only seventeen years of age, or
> thereabouts. He married, about 1315, Anne, daughter of John Bremingham,
> Earl of Lowth, by his wife Mary Anne, daughter of Sir John Netterville
> and his wife Philadolphia, daughter of Hugh de Lacy, Chief Justice of
> Ireland.

[snip]

> Does anyone know if, and where, this picks up verifiable information?

Certainly the marriage of founder 'Sir Edward' looks dubious. An article on the Teeling family that appeared in The Gentleman's Magazine, 1905, reports that John de Bermingham, Earl of Louth, married Avelina de Burgh two daughters, Matilda, wife of William Teeling, and Catherine, wife of Edmund Lacy, basing this on a Pipe Roll entry and a papal dispensation.

http://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=mdp.39015030688090;view=1up;seq=346

taf

[taf]

On Tuesday, December 22, 2015 at 6:14:26 PM UTC-8, Peter Stewart via wrote:

> Does anyone know if, and where, this picks up verifiable information?

Curiously, O'Hart gives a different derivation:

https://books.google.com/books?id=qFRmAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA430

"D'Alton says, in his King James's Irish Army List, 'Edward Warren, of Swords, temp. 1642, deduces his own lineage from William de Warren, the first of the name who came to England; and that Edward Warren, a grandson of the Earl of Warren, passed over into Ireland in Strongbow's time--1172. His great-great-grandson, Richard Warren, acquired the Manor of Swords, in addition to Corduff (or Courtduff), in co. Dublin; and these estates the above Edward Warren, of Swords, temp. 1642, inherited in the sixth generation.'"

taf

[Peter Stewart via]

Ah, if only I had a penny for every claim that descendants of an Irish
adventurer (usually a Jacobite) could trace their line back to a famous
Norman family.

It doesn't even have to be surname's-the-same with these, any plausible
similarity would do ...

If the common pattern is repeated here, then every marriage in the
section I quoted would be to an invented daughter of another famous family.

Peter Stewart

[taf]

On Tuesday, December 22, 2015 at 6:14:26 PM UTC-8, Peter Stewart via wrote:

> This Sir Edward Warren was the first of his family who settled in
> Ireland, about A.D. 1310, when he was only seventeen years of age, or
> thereabouts. He married, about 1315, Anne, daughter of John Bremingham,
> Earl of Lowth, by his wife Mary Anne, daughter of Sir John Netterville
> and his wife Philadolphia, daughter of Hugh de Lacy, Chief Justice of
> Ireland.

> Nicholas Warren, Esq., who married Dorothy, daughter of Sir
> Christopher D'Arcy of Platten, Co. Meath (there may have been other
> issue of this and other generations at this remote period, but the
> direct descent in one line is only given, till we come to the 16th
> century, or thereabouts), and had, by Dorothy, a son -

Christopher d'Arcy was the name some sources give the crusader founder of d'Arcy of Platten, then there was another in the 16th century, but the only place I see a 14th century Christopher is in an equally dubious pedigree of the Netterville family, who make their appearance here is the previous generation's Warren wife. The most broadly distributed version of this family's pedigree makes them descend from John Lord d'Arcy, d. 1347, but that too is probably invented. (This was discussed a little bit here in 2011 - the d'Arcy of Platten have a Y chromosome that doesn't match the English d'Arcys, but is the same as an Irish family with a superficially similar surname. The poster suggested that this means that John, Lord d'Arcy, Justiciar of Ireland, was actually a native Irish who invented an Anglo- Norman pedigree for himself, but it seems the more likely explanation is that an Irish clan used the superficial similarity as basis for inventing a connection to the Crecy hero, as later the O'Dorceys of Galway seem to have done to attach themselves to this descent.)

It is not clear to me that the d'Arcys of Platten even exited at this time.

taf

[D. Spencer Hines]

I love the invented names -- particularly the jumble of English and French.

Someone had a jolly time of coining those -- no doubt fueled with generous
doses of alcohol.

DSH

"Sic gorgiamus allos subjectatos nunc!"

"Peter Stewart via" wrote in message
news:mailman.164.14508270...@rootsweb.com...

[D. Spencer Hines]

I call this:

Genealogical Fruit Salad

Or

Charlatan's Stew.

DSH

Exitus Acta Probat

[Peter Stewart via]

On 24/12/2015 1:19 AM, taf via wrote:
> On Tuesday, December 22, 2015 at 6:14:26 PM UTC-8, Peter Stewart via wrote:
>
>> This Sir Edward Warren was the first of his family who settled in
>> Ireland, about A.D. 1310, when he was only seventeen years of age, or
>> thereabouts. He married, about 1315, Anne, daughter of John Bremingham,
>> Earl of Lowth, by his wife Mary Anne, daughter of Sir John Netterville
>> and his wife Philadolphia, daughter of Hugh de Lacy, Chief Justice of
>> Ireland.
>
>> Nicholas Warren, Esq., who married Dorothy, daughter of Sir
>> Christopher D'Arcy of Platten, Co. Meath (there may have been other
>> issue of this and other generations at this remote period, but the
>> direct descent in one line is only given, till we come to the 16th
>> century, or thereabouts), and had, by Dorothy, a son -
>

Newsgroups can be an unkind environment for quoting - Peter Stewart did
not write these pieces of the Warren pie, he merely copy-pasted them
from a digitised book that is probably (in this part at least) a work of
second-hand fiction.

Peter Stewart

[Bronwen Edwards]

Oh my. d'Arcy questions: I have Elizabeth d'Arcy, d. 1389, married (1346) to James Butler, 2nd Earl of Ormond (1331-1382), as daughter of Sir John d'Arcy, 1st Lord d'Arcy of Knayth (1271-1347) who married (1329) Joan de Burgh (d. 1359). James Butler was also the son of Eleanor de Bohun (1304-1363), daughter of Elizabeth, daughter of Edward I. With all of the attention received by the Ormond & Dunboyne Butlers, I would assume that the d'Arcy line was solidly Norman.

I also have a brother of Elizabeth, William Darcy of Platten (b. 1330), who married Katherine FitzGerald of Aloone. Their son, in my notes, was John Darcy of Platten, Sheriff of Meath (d 1415) who married Jane Pettyt of Molyngar. Their daughter was another Elizabeth Darcy who married Sir Thomas Rochford of Kilbride.

Have I connected two different families? Did at least one Platten Darcy descend from the Knayth line? I don't know if I found a rope or lost a horse. Bronwen

[Peter Stewart via]

On 24/12/2015 10:15 AM, Bronwen Edwards via wrote:
> On Wednesday, December 23, 2015 at 6:20:01 AM UTC-8, taf wrote:
>> On Tuesday, December 22, 2015 at 6:14:26 PM UTC-8, Peter Stewart via wrote:
>>
>>> This Sir Edward Warren was the first of his family who settled in
>>> Ireland, about A.D. 1310, when he was only seventeen years of age, or
>>> thereabouts. He married, about 1315, Anne, daughter of John Bremingham,
>>> Earl of Lowth, by his wife Mary Anne, daughter of Sir John Netterville
>>> and his wife Philadolphia, daughter of Hugh de Lacy, Chief Justice of
>>> Ireland.

Obviously I am fated to discredit as the author of this mish-mash - from
now on I will put quotation marks on every paragraph.

According to CP vol. 8, John de Bermingham, earl of Louth, married
"between June 1308 and Oct. 1320, Aveline, da. of Richard (de Burgh),
2nd earl of Ulster [I] by Margaret, da. of Sir John de Burgh, of
Lanvaley". He died on 10 June 1329 without surviving male offspring, but
"He had two daughters and coheirs - viz. (a) Maud, m. Sir William
Teeling, lord of the manor of Syddan; (b) Catherine, m. Edmund Lacy".

The names of his alleged wife "Mary Anne" Netterville and of her
purported mother "Philadolphia" de Lacy are vivid red flags. "Mary Anne"
would have to have been a first wife if she had a marriageable daughter
by about 1315. The name "Anne" for Sir Edward Warren's alleged wife also
seems anachronistic to me, apart from her omission from CP.

Peter Stewart

[taf]

On Wednesday, December 23, 2015 at 3:15:03 PM UTC-8, Bronwen Edwards wrote:
> On Wednesday, December 23, 2015 at 6:20:01 AM UTC-8, taf wrote:

> >
> > It is not clear to me that the d'Arcys of Platten even exited at this
> > time.
> >
>

> Oh my. d'Arcy questions: I have Elizabeth d'Arcy, d. 1389, married (1346)
> to James Butler, 2nd Earl of Ormond (1331-1382), as daughter of Sir John
> d'Arcy, 1st Lord d'Arcy of Knayth (1271-1347) who married (1329) Joan de
> Burgh (d. 1359). James Butler was also the son of Eleanor de Bohun (1304-
> 1363), daughter of Elizabeth, daughter of Edward I. With all of the
> attention received by the Ormond & Dunboyne Butlers, I would assume that
> the d'Arcy line was solidly Norman.

I have no reason to question this.

> I also have a brother of Elizabeth, William Darcy of Platten (b. 1330),
> who married Katherine FitzGerald of Aloone. Their son, in my notes, was
> John Darcy of Platten, Sheriff of Meath (d 1415) who married Jane Pettyt
> of Molyngar. Their daughter was another Elizabeth Darcy who married Sir
> Thomas Rochford of Kilbride.
>
> Have I connected two different families? Did at least one Platten Darcy
> descend from the Knayth line? I don't know if I found a rope or lost a
> horse. Bronwen

A 'traditional' descent of the Darcy of Platten is as you describe it. I will say at the start that I have not looked into this closely at all and I could be letting my skepticism get the better of me. However, this thread is is all about the way Irish families tended to invent connections to Anglo-Norman noble families (frequently connecting to a younger son by a second marriage), and the way there are several different derivations of Darcy of Platten makes this a concern with this family, particularly since (as was reported in this group in 2011) the Y-DNA of a Platten Darcy did not match that of the English descendants of the Anglo-Norman family, but instead was similar to an Irish family of a distinct but superficially similar surname. It all makes me hesitant to accept the derivation of Darcy of Platten from the Justiciar.

taf