Documenting lineage of Rodrigo Díaz de Vivar aka El Cid

[Steve Barnhoorn]

Greetings:

Using Charles Cawley's Medieval Lands as a guide, I am attempting to document a line of a descent from Rodrigo Díaz de Vivar, known as El Cid. For sources, Mr. Cawley relies on chronicle evidence. Some of these appear to be late sources, long after many of these folks existed.

Examples: Elvira [Cristina] Rodríguez ([1080]-), as the daughter of Rodrigo Díaz de Vivar, who married ([1100]) Ramiro Sánchez de Navarra Señor de Monzón y Urroz, son of SANCHO García de Navarra Señor de Uncastillo y Sangüesa & his first wife Constanza Sánchez (-[Jan/Feb] 1116).. Source given: Antonio Ubieto, Corónicas navarras, Zaragoza, Anubar, 1989 2, (Medieval Texts, 14).

According to Wikipedia, "Between 1196 and 1213 an expanded version was composed that included a Lineage of the Kings of Spain up to Alfonso II of Aragon - written between 1205 and 1209 according to Antonio Ubieto , its modern editor (Valencia, Milagro, 1964) - and a valuable Lineage of Rodrigo Díaz , who Ubieto believed was written while the Cid was alive with the words "the oldest of the historical texts written in romance known today." However, after the studies on the cidian matter of Alberto Montaner Frutos , the Lineage is considered composed around 1195 after the death of Sancho VI of Navarra , and uses the Historia Roderici as sources.(composed between 1188 and 1190 ) and the Najerense Chronicle (c. 1190 )."

On the surface, this would appear to be a late source.

Question I have: are there more contemporaneous sources such as chronicle and charter evidence I can rely on? I would welcome any and all assistance.

Thanks!

[taf]

On Friday, December 4, 2020 at 6:45:42 AM UTC-8, Steve Barnhoorn wrote:
> Question I have: are there more contemporaneous sources such as chronicle and charter evidence I can rely on? I would welcome any and all assistance.
>

I would start with :

Simon Barton & Richard Fletcher, The World of El Cid: Chronicles of the Spanish Reconquest, which includes the texts of:

Historia Silense
Chronicon Regum Legionensium
Historia Roderici
Chronica Adefonsi Imperatoris

taf

[Steve Barnhoorn]

Found these items from Montaner Frutos, Alberto (2011). "La Historia Roderici y el archivo cidiano: cuestiones filológicas, diplomáticas, jurídicas e historiográficas". e-Legal History Review (12): 55-56:

Footnote 244: El “Linage de Rodric Díaz”, § 24 (para las ediciones, vid. nota 250) menciona únicamente al hijo: “L’infant don Remiro ovo en su muller, la filla de meo Çid, al rey don García de Navarra, que dixieron García Remírez”, pero “domna Albira iermana regis” está bien atestiguada por la documentación coetánea (la forma indicada procede de la suscripción, en 1136, de una donación de su hermano García IV, ed. Santos A. García Larragueta, El gran priorado de Navarra de la Orden de San Juan de Jerusalén: Siglos XII-XIII, Institución “Príncipe de Viana”, Pamplona, 1957, doc. 15)

El enlace se realizó a más tardar en 1137, año en que el “comes Rudericus, filius Gomessani comitis, una cum coniugue mea Eluira comitissa” donan “illam nostram uillam que est in alfoz de Ouirna que dicitur Villauerde” (quizá procedente del patrimonio de Rodrigo Díaz) al monasterio de Oña (ed. Juan del Álamo, Colección diplomática de San Salvador de Oña (822-1284), Escuela de Estudios Medievales, CSIC, Madrid, 1950, I, doc. 179, pp. 215-217).

Further, into the text, I came across this item:

Otra posibilidad es que don García hubiese conservado el archivo de su abuelo y lo hubiera llevado consigo a Pamplona tras su acceso al trono navarro en 1134-1135. Esta resulta, en principio, la opción más razonable, pero en la práctica carece de todo apoyo positivo. Así, no dan la menor prueba de conocer tales fuentes los redactores del Libro de las generaciones y linajes de los reyes (olim Liber Regum), una breve compilación historiográfica compuesta en la corte pamplonesa en torno a 1200 que incluye un “Linage de Rodric Díaz”, propiamente una sucinta biografía extractada esencialmente de la Historia Roderici y la Chronica Naiarensis, sin el menor dato que pueda derivar independientemente del archivo cidiano. A cambio, el “Linage” ofrece detalles mucho más precisos sobre su descendencia, que sin duda no constaban en los documentos de dicho archivo y seguramente proceden de la memoria histórica de la propia dinastía navarra, datos que, significativamente, el biógrafo latino desconoce o inexplicablemente (de ser un cronista áulico) silencia.

Trans.: Another possibility is that Don García had kept his grandfather's file and had it taken with him to Pamplona after his accession to the Navarrese throne in 1134-1135. This results, in principle, the most reasonable option, but in practice, it lacks any positive support. Not that way the editors of the Book of Generations give the slightest proof of knowing such sources. Lineages of Kings (olim Liber Regum), a short historiographical compilation composed in the Pamplona court around 1200 that includes a "Linage de Rodric Díaz", properly a succinct biography drawn essentially from the Historia Roderici and the Chronica Naiarensis, without the smallest data that can be derived independently of the 250 cidiano file. In return, the "Linage" offers much more precise details about their offspring, which are certainly not were recorded in the documents of said archive and surely come from memory history of the Navarrese dynasty itself, data that, significantly, the Latin biographer unknown or inexplicably (of being a courtly chronicler) silenced.

[Peter Stewart]

On 05-Dec-20 1:45 AM, Steve Barnhoorn wrote:
> Greetings:
>
> Using Charles Cawley's Medieval Lands as a guide, I am attempting to document a line of a descent from Rodrigo Díaz de Vivar, known as El Cid. For sources, Mr. Cawley relies on chronicle evidence. Some of these appear to be late sources, long after many of these folks existed.

You may be more comprehensively assisted by a better guide than Medieval
Lands - for instance, Margarita Torres Sevilla-Quiñones de León here:
https://rua.ua.es/dspace/bitstream/10045/6786/1/HM_13_11.pdf.

Peter Stewart

[Steve Barnhoorn]

Thanks, Peter. I'm curious about Elvira/Christina. From my quick read through the book, it didn't appear she was mentioned. If you're aware of any other worthwhile sources, I would welcome looking at them as well.

Again, thanks so much.

[taf]

Montaner calls her simply Cristina. No idea where Cawley got the name Elvira. for her. Cristina was the name of her maternal grandmother, so a likely choice.

I note that the catalogue of the collection of Salazar y Castro lists four different copies of the will of Ramiro Sanchez, her husband.

You might also want to see what two studies from the 1940s on the immediate ancestry of Garcia Ramirez had to say about it:

Ricardo del Arco y Garay, Dos infantes de Navarra, señores en Monzón, Príncipe de Viana, Año nº 10, Nº 35-36, 1949, págs. 249-274
https://dialnet.unirioja.es/servlet/articulo?codigo=2252095

German de Pamplona, Filiación y derechos al Trono de Navarra de García Ramírez el Restaurador, Príncipe de Viana, Año nº 10, Nº 35-36, 1949, págs. 275-284
https://dialnet.unirioja.es/servlet/articulo?codigo=2252096

taf

[Peter Stewart]

On 05-Dec-20 11:02 AM, Steve Barnhoorn wrote:
> Thanks, Peter. I'm curious about Elvira/Christina. From my quick read through the book, it didn't appear she was mentioned. If you're aware of any other worthwhile sources, I would welcome looking at them as well.

I meant that the study by Torres is a better guide to contemporary
sources - in this case more for ancestry than descent.

For your particular area of curiosity you could perhaps find some use in
an article by Louis Chalon here:
https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k10821b/f31.item.

Peter Stewart

[taf]

On Friday, December 4, 2020 at 5:53:36 PM UTC-8, taf wrote:
> On Friday, December 4, 2020 at 4:02:35 PM UTC-8, Steve Barnhoorn wrote:
> > Thanks, Peter. I'm curious about Elvira/Christina. From my quick read through
> > the book, it didn't appear she was mentioned. If you're aware of any other
> > worthwhile sources, I would welcome looking at them as well.

> Montaner calls her simply Cristina. No idea where Cawley got the name Elvira.
> for her. Cristina was the name of her maternal grandmother, so a likely choice.

Oops, I forgot the poetic sources gave the daughters 'alternative' names from their historically-documented ones. That is where Elvira comes from.

Chalon, mentioned by Peter, cites Serrano y Sanz on the Liber Regum. This can be found here:
https://archive.org/stream/boletn06acaduoft#page/192/mode/2up

Wikipedia.es has an article on Liber Regum, including more recent editions and analysis, in the bibliography and external links sections:
https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liber_regum

taf

[Steve Barnhoorn]

Thanks. Forgive my linguistic ignorance but what page is the Elvira (or in the case of this text, Elbira) referenced as the daughter of El Cid and wife of Ramiro Sanchez? Page 213?

> > Montaner calls her simply Cristina. No idea where Cawley got the name Elvira.
> > for her. Cristina was the name of her maternal grandmother, so a likely choice.
> Oops, I forgot the poetic sources gave the daughters 'alternative' names from their historically-documented ones. That is where Elvira comes from.
>
> Chalon, mentioned by Peter, cites Serrano y Sanz on the Liber Regum. This can be found here:
> https://archive.org/stream/boletn06acaduoft#page/192/mode/2up
>

> taf

[taf]

On Saturday, December 5, 2020 at 10:27:41 AM UTC-8, Steve Barnhoorn wrote:
> Thanks. Forgive my linguistic ignorance but what page is the Elvira (or in the case of this text, Elbira) referenced as the daughter of El Cid and wife of Ramiro Sanchez? Page 213?

It doesn't name her. p. 212 (penultimate paragraph):

"Est Remir Sanchez priso muller la filla del mio Cith el Campiador & ouo fillo en ella al rei don Garcia de Nauarra, al que dixieron Garcia Ramirez."

'This Ramiro Sanchez took as wife the daughter of my Cid el Campeador (the Champion), and had as son by her the king Lord Garcia of Navarre, he who is called Garcia Ramirez.'

As far as I am aware, the name Elvira does not appear for her in any historical sources, only in the epic lays. Also note that, as Montaner reported, the Liber only names one child, Garcia, not the daughter Elvira. She is known only from being called sister of Garcia, and it is at least a formal possibility that she is his half-sister, an illegitimate daughter of her father not born to Cristina. (Unless, that is, Ramiro's will provides insight - I have not seen it.)

Not bearing on the original question, but this source makes a hash of the earlier kings of Navarre. It shows:
Ennech Ariesta
Garcia Ennequez
Sancho Garceç alias Sanch Auarcha, m. Toda (1 son, several daughters)
Garcia el Tembloso
Sancho el Maior

Compare this to the modern chronology:
Inigo Arista, d. 851
Garcia Iniguez, d. 870s?
Fortun Garces dep. 905
Sancho Garces (I), d. 925, m. Toda, granddaugther of Fortun, (1 son, several daughters)
Garcia Sanchez, d. 970
Sancho Garces (II) Abarca, d. 994
Garcia Sanchez el Temblon, d. c. 1000
Sancho Garces (III) el Mayor. d. 1035

The source has done two things. First, it has taken the two separate dynasties of early Pamplona rulers and combined them into one, by making king Sancho Garces I (the first king of the second dynasty) identical to Sancho Garces (of the first dynasty), brother of Fortun Garces. From the Codice de Roda, we know that in fact, Sancho I 's wife was granddaughter of the other Sancho. It is though that this was an attempt by the scribed of Aragon to elevate their ruling family, making them the direct male-line successors of founder Inigo Arista.

The second change appears much less intentional - more likely a simple error. The string of men named Garcia Sancho Garcia Sancho Garcia Sancho Garcia Sancho has been compressed, eliminating two in the sequence. In so doing, then have dropped one Garcia-Sancho pair from the string, jumping from Sancho I to Sancho III with only one intermediate Garcia rather than the three generations known actually to have been there. Note, though, that when 19th and 20th century historians sorted this out, they took the nicknames given by the Liber to the father and grandfather of Sancho el Mayor and seemingly arbitrarily assigned them to the father and grandfather of Sancho III in the new reconstruction, rather than to the husband and son of Toda, which would be the other way to deal with them when adding in two generations. Cañada Juste has made a strong argument that Sancho I is the one originally called Abarca, and suggests in passing that likewise it was his son by Toda, Garcia Sanchez (I) who was 'the trembler'. The problem with this last conclusion is that though his essential vassalage under Abd al-Rahman III would have merited such a nickname, his grandson Garcia Sanchez (II) was similarly located under under the thumb of Almanzor during most of his reign.

taf

[Steve Barnhoorn]

The closest thing I have thus found in the last few hours is this reference:

El enlace se realizó a más tardar en 1137, año en que el “comes Rudericus, filius Gomessani comitis, una cum coniugue mea Eluira comitissa” donan “illam nostram uillam que est in alfoz de Ouirna que dicitur Villauerde” (quizá procedente del patrimonio de Rodrigo Díaz) al monasterio de Oña (ed. Juan del Álamo, Colección diplomática de San Salvador de Oña (822-1284), Escuela de Estudios Medievales, CSIC, Madrid, 1950, I, doc. 179, pp. 215-217).

Wished there was a way I could gain access to a copy of this book. Unfortunately, they are in Universities and I highly doubt they have inter-library loan programs. I haven't located a digital version of this book likely because of copyright restrictions.

[Steve Barnhoorn]

I stand corrected: This is Elvira's daughter.

[taf]

> I stand corrected: This is Elvira's daughter.

Yeah, I wonder is the poetic sources didn't somehow transfer the daughter's name to the mother.

taf

[Steve Barnhoorn]

This is why I look for charter evidence to determine the validity of names and family connections. Though composed sometime in the 12th century, It's starting to look like the "Corónicas" Navarras is a source that had this lady's name correct: Cristina. I don't believe Historia Roderici explicitly named El Cid's daughters, but I could be wrong here.

[taf]

On Saturday, December 5, 2020 at 4:49:25 PM UTC-8, Steve Barnhoorn wrote:
> This is why I look for charter evidence to determine the validity of names and family connections. Though composed sometime in the 12th century, It's starting to look like the "Corónicas" Navarras is a source that had this lady's name correct: Cristina. I don't believe Historia Roderici explicitly named El Cid's daughters, but I could be wrong here.

I have to say, we are almost certainly reinventing the wheel here. Have you looked at Menendez Pidal's La España del Cid? the 2-volume 1959 4th edition runs over 1000 pages, and it would very much surprise me if he didn't go through the available sources on the family.

taf

[Steve Barnhoorn]

Unfortunately, I haven't seen Menendez Pidal's work, much less have access to his work. I'd be interested in knowing his sources.

[taf]

On Saturday, December 5, 2020 at 12:18:53 PM UTC-8, Steve Barnhoorn wrote:
> The closest thing I have thus found in the last few hours is this reference:
> El enlace se realizó a más tardar en 1137, año en que el “comes Rudericus, filius
> Gomessani comitis, una cum coniugue mea Eluira comitissa” donan “illam nostram
> uillam que est in alfoz de Ouirna que dicitur Villauerde” (quizá procedente del
> patrimonio de Rodrigo Díaz) al monasterio de Oña (ed. Juan del Álamo, Colección
> diplomática de San Salvador de Oña (822-1284), Escuela de Estudios Medievales,
> CSIC, Madrid, 1950, I, doc. 179, pp. 215-217).

I had overlooked this - Montaner is claiming that the property involved in this Oña charter is from el Cid's patrimony, so that would support Elvira being daughter of Cristina and not just an illegitimate half-sister of García Ramírez. If you are interested in descent, however, this is a dead end - this couple was apparently childless, so the García Ramírez route is the only option.

taf

[Steve Barnhoorn]

On Sunday, December 6, 2020 at 7:40:03 AM UTC-5, taf wrote:
> On Saturday, December 5, 2020 at 12:18:53 PM UTC-8, Steve Barnhoorn wrote:
> > The closest thing I have thus found in the last few hours is this reference:
> > El enlace se realizó a más tardar en 1137, año en que el “comes Rudericus, filius
> > Gomessani comitis, una cum coniugue mea Eluira comitissa” donan “illam nostram
> > uillam que est in alfoz de Ouirna que dicitur Villauerde” (quizá procedente del
> > patrimonio de Rodrigo Díaz) al monasterio de Oña (ed. Juan del Álamo, Colección
> > diplomática de San Salvador de Oña (822-1284), Escuela de Estudios Medievales,
> > CSIC, Madrid, 1950, I, doc. 179, pp. 215-217).

> I had overlooked this - Montaner is claiming that the property involved in this Oña charter is from el Cid's patrimony, so that would support Elvira being the daughter of Cristina and not just an illegitimate half-sister of García Ramírez. If you are interested in descent, however, this is a dead-end - this couple was apparently childless, so the García Ramírez route is the only option.
>
> taf

I'm definitely a descendant through García Ramírez. As you probably discerned, I am a lot like you and Peter Stewart. Initially, I tend to be skeptical until I am satisfied I have, with help from you and Peter who are extremely knowledgeable about medieval genealogy, to look for documentation. Cawley's Medieval Lands site is a nice start but I prefer contemporaneous documents or chronicle testimony. I get nervous when I later learn that some of the sources Mr. Cawley consulted in this particular family like the Chronicle of San Juan de la Peña. This was composed sometime in the 14th century. A good two centuries after Cristina's life. Unsure what sources the chronicle was based upon. However, though Corónicas navarras might have been composed around 1195, seems to be the only source that explicitly names Cristina as the daughter of El Cid. From Wikpiedia: "However, after the studies on the cidian matter of Alberto Montaner Frutos, the Lineage is considered composed around 1195 after the death of Sancho VI of Navarra..." Sancho VI was the great-grandson of Cristina, so I would say this source is credible. Unless I'm mistaken, I might not find a near contemporaneous document or source with Cristina's name in it, but this is probably all there is.

[taf]

On Sunday, December 6, 2020 at 9:05:47 AM UTC-8, Steve Barnhoorn wrote:

> Unless I'm mistaken, I might not find a near contemporaneous document
> or source with Cristina's name in it, but this is probably all there is.

I wouldn't be too hasty in reaching this conclusion. Just about all the sources we have been talking about are over a half-century old. There may well be relevant charters concerning Ramiro Sanchez de Monzon that have been published in the interim. Even Ubieto Arteta's Los Tenentes de Aragón y Navarra en los siglos XI y XII may have something (it is one of the cites for the Real Academia's biographical blurb on Ramiro Sanchez, but I have never seen it). I can't speak for Peter, but I have never had access to good source material for this time period in Navarre, so I just don't have a good feel for whether there truly isn't anything or our failure to come up with something just reflects my poor familiarity with what is available.

taf

[Steve Barnhoorn]

The COVID outbreak makes it tough to go to University libraries and consult these books in person. I don't dispute the line of descent. All I am after is solid evidence. I'm confident of the historians that have weighed in based on their research. Just wished I could read the books.

[taf]

On Sunday, December 6, 2020 at 3:39:12 PM UTC-8, Steve Barnhoorn wrote:

> The COVID outbreak makes it tough to go to University libraries and consult
> these books in person. I don't dispute the line of descent. All I am after is solid
> evidence. I'm confident of the historians that have weighed in based on their
> research. Just wished I could read the books.

Earlier in the thread I had suggested Menendez Pidal's work, but as I think about it, he is unlikely to be more helpful than the sources we have already been through. I remember now that his summary chart showed Cristina's husband in the wrong place in the royal family - he makes him son of infante Ramiro Garces, Lord of Calahorra. Unless he updated his text but failed to update his chart, then any charter he had ostensibly referring to her husband would in fact be referring to some other guy names Ramiro Ramirez.

I checked Salazar y Acha's paper on Sancho Garces, Ramiro's actual father, and he had nothing useful to say about the man's daughter-in-law, other than stating the bare facts that the marriage took place simply for context (i.e. something like 'His son was Ramiro Sanchez, lord of Monzon, the one who married at Valencia to Cristina, daughter of Rodrigo Diaz de Vivar) and her name appearing in his unreferenced chart at the end. There is also a paper by Canal Sanchez-Pagin on Ramiro's sister. It again simply makes the statement that the marriage took place, citing Lacarra, Historia politica del reino de Navarra, but he as well just makes the statement without reference (p. 330) and shows it in a chart (p. 263).
https://www.fundacioncajanavarra.es/sites/default/files/ha_politica_nav_can00008-100000000000000000000410_0.pdf

Of the papers cited by the Real Academia for their blurb about Ramiro Sanchez, the only one we have not seen now is Ubieto Arteta's work.

taf

[Steve Barnhoorn]

What is your opinion of the value of Corónicas navarras as a source? At this moment, it seems to be the only source I could find that explicitly names Cristina as the daughter of El Cid.

[taf]

On Sunday, December 6, 2020 at 11:13:41 PM UTC-8, Steve Barnhoorn wrote:

> What is your opinion of the value of Corónicas navarras as a source? At this moment,
> it seems to be the only source I could find that explicitly names Cristina as the daughter
> of El Cid.

Though one would like something better, a chronicler can usually be considered trustworthy in reporting the bare fact of a marriage within the previous century, if not the precise details of the account. The only caveat is that Garcia Ramirez was a relatively low-level regional lord when the preferred candidate for the crown behaved like a haughty ass and alienated his own faction, causing them to select Garcia instead. The motivation would have arisen pretty quickly to elevate his status by giving him a prominent maternal heritage. However, in most cases, such 'that is exactly what a forger would claim' arguments basically amount to historical nihilism.

taf

[Steve Barnhoorn]

Learn something new every day here: "Historical nihilism." Let's hope it's not the case here.

[ache...@gmail.com]

https://www.bartleby.com/library/prose/1356.html

Paragraph 21 seems to suggest that historian's have generally accepted that the wife of Edward I, Eleanor of Castille is regarded as descendant of El Cid.

[taf]

On Tuesday, December 8, 2020 at 10:13:19 AM UTC-8, ache...@gmail.com wrote:
> https://www.bartleby.com/library/prose/1356.html
>
> Paragraph 21 seems to suggest that historian's have generally accepted that the wife of Edward I, Eleanor of Castille is regarded as descendant of El Cid.

First a warning - that was written in 1910, and nothing that old regarding Iberia should be taken as a reflection of modern expert opinion. Iberian genealogy went completely off the rails, and anything written from the 16th century through the first half of the 20th century should be viewed with skepticism, and it took even longer for the results of modern scholarly genealogy in Iberia to migrate into English-language source. One still see English-language historians using this material without realizing its flaws.

That being said, in this case the issue is not one of acceptance - this connection is basically universally accepted - it is a question of the actual evidence on which this general acceptance is based.

taf

[Don Stone]

On Tuesday, December 8, 2020 at 1:13:19 PM UTC-5, ache...@gmail.com wrote:
> https://www.bartleby.com/library/prose/1356.html
>
> Paragraph 21 seems to suggest that historian's have generally accepted that the wife of Edward I, Eleanor of Castille is regarded as descendant of El Cid.

I agree with the above, but in addition King Edward I's second wife, Marguerite of France, was also a descendant of El Cid via Alfonso VIII of Castile (whose daughter Blanche married Louis VIII of France).