Adam De Berthelot of Normandy 1066

[Eric Bartlett]

Is Adam De Berthelot of Normandy France related to Berth daughter of King Pepin III and Milo Count of Angleria? I'm looking for the family lineage in between from Adam De Berthelot b 1046-to their children of Milo and Berth of about 765 AD

[Peter Stewart]

On 18/02/2017 12:58 PM, Eric Bartlett wrote:
> Is Adam De Berthelot of Normandy France related to Berth daughter of King Pepin III and Milo Count of Angleria? I'm looking for the family lineage in between from Adam De Berthelot b 1046-to their children of Milo and Berth of about 765 AD
>

These are fictitious, not real people.

It's a useful exercise to try googling names - if they occur mainly in
online genealogies and 19th-century or earlier family histories, they
are very probably bogus.

Peter Stewart

[Richard Carruthers]

Quite right, Peter.

These folk feature in the ahem "embellished" parts of the pedigree of
the family of BARTELOTT of Earnley, Sussex, which is one of many local
families, I have come across during my studies of the ERNLE family
originally of Earnley, Sussex.

Richard Carruthers

On 17/02/2017, Peter Stewart <pss...@optusnet.com.au> wrote:
>
>
> On 18/02/2017 12:58 PM, Eric Bartlett wrote:

> These are fictitious, not real people.
>
> It's a useful exercise to try googling names - if they occur mainly in
> online genealogies and 19th-century or earlier family histories, they
> are very probably bogus.
>
> Peter Stewart
>

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[vala...@gmail.com]

On Saturday, 18 February 2017 01:58:29 UTC, Eric Bartlett wrote:
> Is Adam De Berthelot of Normandy France related to Berth daughter of King Pepin III and Milo Count of Angleria? I'm looking for the family lineage in between from Adam De Berthelot b 1046-to their children of Milo and Berth of about 765 AD

There are lots of Berthelots in France and Europe. See the story of Berthelot nephew of Charlemagne on the internet. These were real people, and their coat of arms was the same, but cannot be stated as absolute.

[J.L. Fernandez Blanco]

On Tuesday, May 2, 2017 at 6:10:38 AM UTC-3, vala...@gmail.com wrote:

> There are lots of Berthelots in France and Europe. See the story of Berthelot nephew of Charlemagne on the internet. These were real people, and their coat of arms was the same, but cannot be stated as absolute.

Er...whose coat of arms? During Charlemagne's time? Oh, dear! Heraldry wasn't born until the XIII century in general, though there were some attempts to have personal, albeit rudimentary, devices after mid-XII century. There were not even coat of arms during the First Crusade! So much for the reliability of Internet. How about searching some real contemporary sources instead of believing whatever rubbish people tend to write nowadays on the net.

[rhonda....@gmail.com]

Thats not true..while the modern coats of arms that one may hang on a wall came later..all of the geeat families flew heraldic symbols or banners from horseback and these were granted by high authority...the story of berthalot who was the son of bertha charles the 1 st sister and his death/murder is memorialized in a tapestry...and his descendants were give a coat of arms that even today are used by Sir walter brian De Stopham Barttalott baron in the english peerage...and on all bartlett coats of arms providing they are descended of Richard Thomas or john Barttalot ..bartlett upon arrival in the mass bay colonies in the 1630 s

[Peter Stewart]

On 7/2/2017 9:47 AM, rhonda....@gmail.com wrote:
> Thats not true..while the modern coats of arms that one may hang on a wall came later..all of the geeat families flew heraldic symbols or banners from horseback and these were granted by high authority...the story of berthalot who was the son of bertha charles the 1 st sister and his death/murder is memorialized in a tapestry...and his descendants were give a coat of arms that even today are used by Sir walter brian De Stopham Barttalott baron in the english peerage...and on all bartlett coats of arms providing they are descended of Richard Thomas or john Barttalot ..bartlett upon arrival in the mass bay colonies in the 1630 s

Ho hum - "memorialized in a tapestry", so it must be true ...

But what if there is an embroidery or a finger painting somewhere
memorialising the fact that Charlemagne did not have a sister named Bertha?

Peter Stewart

[wjhonson]

I'm curious about this claim that arms were "granted by high authority" in this particular time period.

Is this at all true?

Are there actually letters patent or something of that sort that grant a specific coat of arms? Or just some coat of arms to be determined by the holder? Or maybe agree to establish a coat of arms that has already existed as "definitive" or what?

I'm unsure. But I'd be surprised to know that we have such a thing so early in this period.

[Peter Howarth]

Just as the tapestry tells us nothing, so is the rest wishful thinking. The earliest evidence for someone who 'flew heraldic symbols or banners from horseback' is a seal of Raoul the Valiant (d.1152), count of Vermandois, where he is depicted carrying a lance with a chequered banner with three tails. His nephew, Waleran de Beaumont (d.1166), count of Meulan, had similar seals with chequers on his banner and later on his shield, saddle-cloth and surcoat. However, there is no evidence of chequers for any of their direct descendants. Waleran's mother, Isabel of Vermandois, by her second husband, had great-grandchildren who suddenly decided that they wanted to demonstrate their descent from Charlemagne through her and so adopted arms with chequers.

Since in general during the twelfth, thirteenth and fourteenth centuries knights helped themselves to coats of arms on their own authority, it is difficult to know when any such arms might have been 'granted by high authority'. I certainly can't imagine that the counts of Flanders and Hainault bothered with any higher authority for the arms that they bore from the last quarter of the twelfth century onwards.

John de Bado Aureo, writing his 'Tractatus de Armis' about 1395, says that 'whenever a man makes a petition for arms or some device, it is necessary to know about the man's habits, and thus can arms be suggested for him'. But note that he only says 'suggested', not 'granted'. And it was because coats of arms were starting to be used by unsuitable persons, that Henry V issued a writ in 1418 requiring everyone to show their right to bear arms (normally by long usage) 'those excepted who bore arms with us at the battle of Agincourt.' And of course the Tudor visitations were ordered because unsuitable people were still using coats of arms.

According to Rodney Dennys, 'Heraldry and the Heralds' p 46, the earliest existing English grant of arms is that by William Bruges, the first Garter King of Arms, to the Worshipful Company of Drapers of the City of London, on 10 March 1439.

Peter Howarth

[taf]

On Monday, July 3, 2017 at 9:49:26 AM UTC-7, wjhonson wrote:
> I'm curious about this claim that arms were "granted by high authority"
> in this particular time period.
>
> Is this at all true?

No

> Are there actually letters patent or something of that sort that grant a
> specific coat of arms? Or just some coat of arms to be determined by the
> holder? Or maybe agree to establish a coat of arms that has already existed
> as "definitive" or what?

No

> I'm unsure. But I'd be surprised to know that we have such a thing so early
> in this period.

We don't. The whole thing - that Charlemagne had a sister Bertha who was mother of Barthelot, and that the descendants of this Barthelot were granted a coat of arms, and that he was ancestor of the English Bartlett family, appears to be made up in its entirety.

taf

[Kelsey Jackson Williams]

The Bertha phase of this fantasy seems to be later, but the supposed Norman "Adam de Berthelot" appears to go back to "an old MS. pedigree" owned by Walter Barttelot of Stopham, Sussex, and quoted in Dudley George Cary Elwes' _History of the Castles, Mansions, and Manors of Western Sussex_ (London and Lewes, 1876), facing p. 219 [1]. Looking at Elwes' work, it's pretty clear there's no authority for any individual in the Barttelot pedigree prior to Adam Barttelot of Kingston and East Preston, Sussex, fl. 1295 (and even that looks a bit dodgy).

All the best,
Kelsey

[1] https://archive.org/stream/historyofcastles00elwe#page/n7/mode/2up

[J.L. Fernandez Blanco]

On Saturday, July 1, 2017 at 8:48:00 PM UTC-3, rhonda....@gmail.com wrote:
> Thats not true..while the modern coats of arms that one may hang on a wall came later..all of the geeat families flew heraldic symbols or banners from horseback and these were granted by high authority...the story of berthalot who was the son of bertha charles the 1 st sister and his death/murder is memorialized in a tapestry...and his descendants were give a coat of arms that even today are used by Sir walter brian De Stopham Barttalott baron in the english peerage...and on all bartlett coats of arms providing they are descended of Richard Thomas or john Barttalot ..bartlett upon arrival in the mass bay colonies in the 1630 s

And your source is....? Mind you, I have a degree in Heraldry and Genealogy from the Real Academia Matritense de Heráldica y Genealogía, so I DO know what I am talking about.

[M S]

There are some real assholes in this group, mean and condescending jerks

[Hans Vogels]

Op zaterdag 14 november 2020 om 08:46:18 UTC+1 schreef M S:

M.S.

Commenting a 2017 discussion with such a remark can't be taken serious. It shows a lack in al kind of manners, intelligence included.

Hans Vogels