Medieval Welsh Genealogy

[Stewart Baldwin]

A recent purchase which arrived in my mailbox today:

Ben Guy, Medieval Welsh Genealogy. An Introduction and Textual Study (Studies in Celtic History XLII, Boydell Press, 2020).

This is a very detailed study of the early Welsh genealogical manuscripts, recommended for those interested in the serious study of early Welsh genealogy who happen to have some extra money gathering dust. However, the material may be too difficult for those who just prefer to copy genealogies.

Stewart Baldwin

[jhigg...@yahoo.com]

The book is available at quite a number of US libraries - if and when libraries begin offering ILL services again. Here is a list of its contents (from Worldcat):

Intro -- Frontcover -- Contents -- List of Illustrations -- Acknowledgements -- List of Abbreviations -- A Note on Orthography, Manuscripts, Tables and Translations -- 1. Medieval Welsh Genealogy and its Contexts -- Kinship and Society in Medieval Wales -- Literary Genealogy in the Insular World -- Formal and Structural Conventions of Insular Literary Genealogy -- Literary Genealogy in Medieval Wales -- Modern Approaches to Medieval Welsh Genealogy -- 2. The Earliest Welsh Genealogical Collections: The St Davids Recension and the Gwynedd Collection of Genealogies -- The Harleian Genealogies; The St Davids Recension in Llancarfan -- 3. A Southern Genealogical Anthology: The Jesus 20 Genealogies -- The Manuscript -- The Extant Form of the Jesus 20 Genealogies -- The Jesus 20 Genealogies, Source II -- The Jesus 20 Genealogies, Source I -- The Sources of the Morgan ab Owain Genealogies -- 4. Reframing the Welsh Past in Early Thirteenth-Century Gwynedd: The Llywelyn ab Iorwerth Genealogies -- Textual History -- Textual Analysis -- 5. The Pedigrees of the Kings of Gwynedd -- Early Versions Traced through Cunedda Wledig -- The Pedigree from Beli Mawr to Adam; The Pedigree of Llywelyn ap Gruffudd -- The Exeter 3514 Genealogies -- Mortimer Genealogies -- The Fifteenth-Century Extended Galfridian Pedigree -- Coda -- Appendix A: Supporting Material -- A.2.1: Manuscripts of the St Cadog Genealogies -- A.2.2: The St Cadog Genealogies -- A.2.3: Geoffrey of Monmouth's Use of the St Davids Recension -- A.3.1: The Contents of Jesus 20 -- A.3.2: The Jesus 20 King-list -- A.3.3: Pedigrees from the Pseudo-Rhodri Mawr Recension -- A.3.4: A Welsh Version of the Brychan Narrative: Sarth Marthin gynt, ynawr Brycheiniawc -- A.3.5: Witnesses to the Ceredig Tract; A.3.6: The Sons of Glywys -- A.4.1: Witnesses to Ieuan Brechfa's Lost Manuscript(s) -- A.4.2: Witnesses to Henry Salesbury's Lost Manuscript -- A.4.3: Bonedd y Llwythau -- A.4.4: Additional Material in Llyma Dalm o Weheliaethau a Llwythau Cymru -- A.4.5: The Use of De gestis Britonum in the Pedigree of Beli Mawr -- A.4.6: The Use of Historia Gruffud vab Kenan in the Llywelyn ab Iorwerth Genealogies -- A.4.7: Pedigrees from the St Davids Recension -- A.5.1: Cyprius quidam filius Ieuan and its Relatives -- Untitled -- Appendix B: Editions -- B.1: The St Davids Recension; B.2: The Jesus 20 Genealogies -- B.3: Gwehelyth Morgannwg -- B.4: The Llywelyn ab Iorwerth Genealogies -- B.5: The Gutun Owain Recension of the Llywelyn ab Iorwerth Genealogies -- B.6: Llyma Dalm o Weheliaethau a Llwythau Cymru -- B.7: Llyma Frychan Brycheiniog a'i blant -- B.8: Bonedd Gwyr y Gogledd -- B.9: The Mostyn Genealogies -- B.10: The Cwtta Cyfarwydd Genealogies -- B.11: Brenhinllwyth Morgannwg -- Bibliography -- General Index -- Index of Genealogies -- Index of Manuscripts

[Stewart Baldwin]

I have now waded through this book in some detail, and I thought that it would be useful to describe the contents and discuss how the book might be used. The Welsh genealogies were composed over a period of many centuries, appearing in many different manuscripts based on a variety of sources, including earlier manuscripts, many of which are now lost. Making the most informed use of these sources requires that we know as much as possible about when these genealogies were originally composed, and that we reconstruct earlier versions of these genealogies to the extent that this is possible, by comparing similar surviving manuscripts which were copied from the same sources. Doing such studies requires that critical editions of the most important manuscripts (and related manuscript groups) be available.

Prior to the present work of Ben Guy, the most comprehensive edition of early Welsh genealogical texts was Peter Bartrum's "Early Welsh Genealogical Tracts" (EWGT) (Cardiff, 1966), which gave transcripts of most of the earliest surviving Welsh manuscript genealogies. In addition, Bartrum edited material from a number of later manuscripts alleging to give information about early medieval Welsh leaders, many of which appeared in the "National Library of Wales Journal" (NLWJ) (principally volumes 12-18, 1962-1973). The most important of these was "Pedigrees of the Welsh Tribal Patriarchs" in NLWJ 13 (1963-4), 93-146; 15 (1967-8), 157-166. However, the form in which Bartrum edited this later genealogical material consisted of taking excerpts from various manuscripts giving the genealogies of each so-called patriarch, making it difficult to see the interrelationships between the various manuscript traditions. Of course, many amateur genealogists know the work of Peter Bartrum through his massive "Welsh Genealogies, AD 300-1400" (WG) (8 vols., Cardiff, 1974), which sets out the main contents of the early Welsh genealogical manuscripts in table form, often obscuring the conflicts between the sources. Novices often make the mistake of considering WG to be the gospel source on early Welsh genealogy, completely missing the point that it was only intended to be a guide to what the genealogical manuscripts claim. Those who use WG often overlook one of its most valuable features: the index, which identifies the original manuscript sources for each individual in the tables. Although extremely useful, this information in Bartrum's index appears in an awkward form which makes source comparison difficult.

In Ben Guy's "Medieval Welsh Genealogy" (MWG), we have the most comprehensive textual history of the early Welsh genealogical manuscripts yet attempted, with detailed critical editions of many of the most important manuscripts, and numerous table comparing the readings of various manuscripts, as a supplement supporting his conclusions. Guy identifies three major recensions which include the bulk of the early Welsh genealogies, plus a fourth which is an offshoot of one of the other three. These are 1. The St. David's Recension, mainly witnessed by Harley 3859; 2. The Jesus College genealogies; 3. The Llywelyn ap Iorwerth genealogies; and 4. The Gutun Owain recension of the Llywelyn ap Iorwerth genealogies.

1. The St. David's recension.
This is mainly represented by the well-known genealogies contained in Harley 3859 (i.e., British Library, Harleian MS 3859), contained in a manuscript of ca. 1100, apparently copied directly by an Anglo-Norman scribe who did not know Welsh from a southern Welsh exemplar of not long after 954. In addition, scattered other sources contain genealogies which can be identified as belonging to this tradition. Guy's edition is based mainly on Harley 3859, occasionally using one of the other sources when it apparently gives a better reading, with all variant reading given in footnotes. Although the text itself can be dated to the middle of the ninth century in South Wales, comparison with other recension suggests that much of the material in the St. David's recension was composed in North Wales late in the reign of Rhodi Mawr (d. 878), and later updated for the benefit of his great-grandson Owain ap Hywel Dda ca. 954.

2. The Jesus College Genealogies.
These appear in Oxford, Jesus College MS 20 (thirteenth or fourteenth cemtury), another well known early Welsh genealogical manuscript. Guy corrects contained errors contained in earlier published editions of this manuscript, and also has detailed footnotes explaining readings where the manuscript is difficult to read. The genealogies appear to have been composed in the reign of Llywelyn ap Iorwerth (d. 1240). The complicated textual history is discussed in detail. It appears to be based on two main sources, one related to #1, and one related to #3.

3. The Llywelyn ap Iorwerth Genealogies.
This is Guy's name for a recension of the genealogies, many of which have been edited before (for example, in Bartrum's EWGT), but often separately in a way that did not identify the group of genealogies as belonging to a particular recension. This recension was apparently composed in the middle of the thirteenth century, and is related to the genealogical tradition found in Life of Gruffudd ap Cynan, in which the accidental removal of Merfyn Frych in an ancestral manuscript caused a tradition which significantly altered the immediate ancestry of Rhodri Mawr.

4. The Gutun Owain recension of the Llywelyn ap Iorwerth genealogies.
This offshoot of #3 was compiled in the middle of the fifteenth century, and was a very influential source for the late medieval and early modern Welsh genealogies.

Anyone expecting an easy read is going to be very disappointed. Any novices who approach this book should be warned that a considerable amount of additional reading is going to be required in order to fully appreciate the significance of the discussions there. Rather than providing definitive answers to specific questions in early Welsh genealogy, this work provides a comprehensive beginning from which the manuscript traditions can be more easily sifted for information which could either confirm or deny various pedigrees, or determine which of two conflicting versions is more reliable. I would regard this book as essential for anyone who wants to do really serious research in the primary sources for early Welsh genealogy.

Stewart Baldwin

[Hans Vogels]

On the subject of the older generations of the House of Gwynedd I came on Academia across a paper of paper of Flint Johnson, The Gwynedd Dynasty from Padarn to Maelgwyn (2020) that takes a new critical look on previous knowledge/assumptions with regard to Cunedda, Taliesin, Gododdin and the trustworthyness of the eldest generations of the Gwynedd Dynasty. The who wrote what when why and with what agenda.

https://www.academia.edu/45676246/The_Gwynedd_Dynasty_from_Padarn_to_Maelgwn

With regards,
Hans Vogels

Op dinsdag 24 november 2020 om 06:11:17 UTC+1 schreef jhigg...@yahoo.com:

[Stewart Baldwin]

On Saturday, December 4, 2021 at 7:29:52 AM UTC-6, hansvog...@gmail.com wrote:
> On the subject of the older generations of the House of Gwynedd I came on Academia across a paper of paper of Flint Johnson, The Gwynedd Dynasty from Padarn to Maelgwyn (2020) that takes a new critical look on previous knowledge/assumptions with regard to Cunedda, Taliesin, Gododdin and the trustworthyness of the eldest generations of the Gwynedd Dynasty. The who wrote what when why and with what agenda.
>
> https://www.academia.edu/45676246/The_Gwynedd_Dynasty_from_Padarn_to_Maelgwn

I found most of this to be unconvincing guesswork.

Stewart Baldwin

[Hans Vogels]

Op zondag 5 december 2021 om 02:28:16 UTC+1 schreef Stewart Baldwin:

I agree it is nothing compared to Guy Halsall's, Worlds of Arthur. Facts & Fictions of the Dark Ages (2013), but beside the guesswork it provides a critical view on some previous assumptions and points to some peculiarities. From genealogical viewpoint it is a critical approach on a popular line of descent.

What did you find unconvincing?

A quick Google check shows that Flint Johnson has written more on that time period.

>> Dr. Flint Johnson grew up in Hudson, Wisconsin. After graduating from the University of Wisconsin, River Falls, he earned his Ph.D. in Medieval Studies, a multi-disciplinary degree, from the University of Glasgow at the age of 26. His other areas of interest include Greek and Germanic classic history, feminist studies, and prehistoric civilizations. A highly creative and prolific writer, he has written many books in several of his different areas of study and is in the process of publishing them. He is currently focusing his work on German history ca. 300 through 550.<<

https://www.amazon.com/Flint-Johnson/e/B001KHFMI2%3Fref=dbs_a_mng_rwt_scns_share
https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Flint-Johnson-2
https://independent.academia.edu/FlintJohnson

In his advise to other researchers I noticed that his knowledge of academic literature is remarkable. It looks to me that dr. Johnson is no amateur whose work can be easily brushed aside with a casual comment.

With regards,
Hans Vogels

[Stewart Baldwin]

On Sunday, December 5, 2021 at 4:54:18 AM UTC-6, hansvog...@gmail.com wrote:
> Op zondag 5 december 2021 om 02:28:16 UTC+1 schreef Stewart Baldwin:
> > On Saturday, December 4, 2021 at 7:29:52 AM UTC-6, hansvog...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > On the subject of the older generations of the House of Gwynedd I came on Academia across a paper of paper of Flint Johnson, The Gwynedd Dynasty from Padarn to Maelgwyn (2020) that takes a new critical look on previous knowledge/assumptions with regard to Cunedda, Taliesin, Gododdin and the trustworthyness of the eldest generations of the Gwynedd Dynasty. The who wrote what when why and with what agenda.
> > >
> > > https://www.academia.edu/45676246/The_Gwynedd_Dynasty_from_Padarn_to_Maelgwn
> > I found most of this to be unconvincing guesswork.
>

> What did you find unconvincing?

While credentials like a Master's Degree are not meaningless, the research still has to speak for itself. My original statement was based on the large number of "red flags" I found when resding the paper. For example, discussing the origin of the dynasty of Gwynedd, in the very first paragraph contains the following sentence:

"The Historia Brittonum states that Padarn Peisrud, translated as Paternus of the Red Cloak, founded the dynasty."

This statement is false. Not only does Historia Brittonum [HB] not make this statement, it does not even mention Padarn Peisrud. If we give the author the benefit of the doubt and assume that he was not falsifying his citation, then the most generous assessment would appear to be that of extreme sloppiness. The edition of HB cited is that of Morris, which also prints the Harleian Genealogies, which do mention Padarn Peisrud in the genealogy of the kings of Gwynedd. However, even the genealogies do not make the statement that Padarn founded the dynasty. In fact, no known primary source makes that statement, although it has been a matter of speculation in modern scholarship. It would appear that this particular statement by the author was based on some careless notes which were not checked when the alleged source was cited.

This alone would be enough to cause considerable skepticism, but there are plenty of other problems. The paper shows plenty of "cherry-picking" of data, including from late literary sources (such as the late Welsh tale "Culhwch ac Olwen") treated as if they were genuine "historical" sources.

Stewart Baldwin

[Hans Vogels]

Op maandag 6 december 2021 om 05:52:37 UTC+1 schreef Stewart Baldwin:

Indeed, it's in how you treat the details one's craftmanship shows.

With regards,
Hans Vogels

[Dude]

Is there any historically accepted line to Cunedda?

[Stewart Baldwin]

On Monday, January 31, 2022 at 10:15:30 AM UTC-6, Dude wrote:

> Is there any historically accepted line to Cunedda?

No. The time of his supposed existence would be a century or so before any contemporary recorded history concerning any of his alleged descendants, and several hundred years before any source mentioning Cunedda himself. While it would be difficult to demonstrate convincingly that he is completely mythical, there are enough suspicious elements in the story to cast major doubt.

Stewart Baldwin