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Vukovar and "the International Community"

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Mir Harven

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Aug 13, 2002, 9:43:41 AM8/13/02

http://www.washtimes.com/world/20020811-24444994.htm

quoted without permission

August 11, 2002

U.N. intervention too late

By Georgie Anne Geyer

SPECIAL TO THE WASHINGTON TIMES

VUKOVAR, Croatia — The exquisite old baroque Danubian city of
Vukovar seemed almost too perfect for the neighborhood.
It developed centuries ago in a very unusual and delicate manner
for a small city in the Balkans, when traders from the north of Europe
plied the Danube River southward, carrying not only goods to trade on
these unknown peripheries of Europe but carrying the refined music of
"Europe," its arts and architecture to the "wild" southern Serbs.
Vukovar was an outpost — a plains' Salzburg, a little Prague, a
faraway Tallinn. Even two centuries ago, its exquisite Baroque streets
were lined with the best shops, with an impressive opera house and
with a legendary hotel acclaimed across a Europe that always sniffed
at "the Balkans."
In fact, Vukovar was too perfect for the Balkans — and when the
Serbs turned away from the other cities they had left in ruins after
the first four months of the war they began in June 1991, they turned
on this lovely Croatian Roman Catholic city with a special destructive
vehemence.
It was the same vengeance they would wreak on Bosnian Muslim
Sarajevo, another Balkans jewel that, to them, didn't "belong." It was
the special vengeance of the mountain people of the Dinaric Alps,
united under Yugoslav President Slobodan Milosevic against the
cultured and tolerant "European" elites of the valleys and plains.
Later, historians would define Vukovar that terrible fall as
"Croatia's Stalingrad." The pattern of attack on the Danubian prize
was the common one that the Serbs had been employing in their march
across Bosnia and Croatia and their unsuccessful attempt to take
Slovenia at the beginning of the war.
The Yugoslav army provided the heavy weapons and infantry support
to local Serb paramilitaries and the local Serbs, almost all of whom
immediately turned on their neighbors in what they now grotesquely
called "self-cleaning."
The horrors seemed to grow as the Serbs took town after town,
with no resistance from the unarmed and terrified local populations —
and surely with hardly an outcry from the world, whose representative
spokesmen were flocking sheepishly to conference after conference,
begging the Serbs to tell them what they really wanted in order to
stop fighting — and saying over and over in world forums that the Serb
forces were too strong for them to fight.
In Vukovar, the Serbs offered safe transit to hundreds of Croats
who had, in their terror, taken refuge in a hospital. When on Nov. 9,
1991, the Yugoslav army entered the hospital (after promising U.N.
representatives that they would not) and the Croats emerged, almost
all were murdered or taken away to be executed in quonset huts that
still stand today.
But this is a story about another fall day in Vukovar, this one
eight years later in 1999. This story carries the entire saga of
international governance still a step further, to the morning after
and to what happens to an already victimized people once the war is
over and they supposedly had been "saved."
That beautiful fall day, a small group of foreign journalists had
been driven by bus to the former museum building of Vukovar, courtesy
of the office of the late Croatian President Franjo Tudjman.
Five local officials, four men and one woman, sat at a long
table in a lovely salon of the museum, which was itself filled with
photos of the diabolical destruction of the town that lay in the snow
just outside the windows.
"In 1997, the Croatian government adopted a national
reconciliation program," began Vladimir Stengl, a handsome,
grey-haired man with a perpetually sorrowful look who was Vukovar's
Croatian mayor, "and its main task is to establish trust and
confidence."
But soon the journalists' questions turned to talk of justice for
the thousands of victims there, many of them still buried in
undiscovered mass graves; and at this point, the mayor added sadly,
"Unfortunately, the butchers of Vukovar are walking free on the
streets of Yugoslavia — [Bosnian Serb military commander Ratko]
Mladic, [Bosnian Serb political leader Radovan] Karadjic — because
they are out of our control and the international community is unable
to arrest them."
The leading Serb official at the table, Milos Voinovich, a little
man with darting black eyes, immediately and coldly objected to the
discourse. He did not want any words like "butchers" or "war
criminals" to be used.
"I am a lawyer," he proclaimed to the group, "a member of the
judiciary. That is why I avoid using such words. This must be proven
by a court."
Since in the ferocity of the siege, more explosive devices fell
on Vukovar in three months than during the entire Second World War —
and since so many of the defenders of the historic city were young
boys and girls, who fought as young people do, heroically — most of
the city lay by then in shards and pieces. But one plot of land was
spanking clean and neat: the Serb cemetery built by the attackers for
their fallen. The monuments of marble graves have atop them, in stone,
the hats of the hated World War II Serb Chetnik fighters.
But despite the Serb destruction and despite the fact that the
Serbs blew up a group of Croat houses to build the cemetery, the
Croats, who won the area back in 1995, were not permitted to remove
the monuments.
In that same spirit, the Serbs changed the name of one of
Vukovar's lovely old avenues from the name of a Croatian leader to the
name of his assassin. That could not be changed, either, because the
Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe declared it could
not. The OSCE had immediately decreed that nothing should be changed
for at least five years because it would hurt the Serbs' pride and
might damage the reconciliation process they so insisted upon.
Later, back in Zagreb, I discovered that one of the reasons for
the considerable tension that bleak day in the museum was because the
Serb official so offended by talk of "war criminals" was indeed a
lawyer. In fact, he was the head of the Supreme Court in Vukovar, and
it was he, during the siege, who was first in charge of choosing those
to be taken to concentration camps and those to be killed.
The international organizations would not even allow the Croats
to look for the lost bodies of those still-missing young men and women
— that would set back the process of "reconciliation" because telling
the truth about the war would "remind the Serbs of the war" and make
them more recalcitrant about "reconciling."
"Two thousand people killed in Vukovar," a top aide to President
Tudjman said afterwards, sadly, voicing typically what many Croats
felt, "and you are faced with huge emotions growing up from the
graves. And nobody's punished. How can I reconcile people when we do
not have the satisfaction that somebody is punished for it all?"
But this new free-floating international mentality prided itself
on being, above all, "non-judgmental," talking constantly of
"reconciliation" instead of "justice," as though reconciliation were
as simple as saying that everybody is guilty, so let's just get on
with it and have the right thoughts.
Thoughtful psychological analysts like Prof. Slavin Letica, the
respected Croatian writer and intellectual, argued that these
supposedly well-meaning foreigners, who were by then setting down the
principles for international governance in foreign crises from Croatia
to Indonesia to Rwanda, with their alphabet soup of organizations, had
become "post-national" human beings, "ciphers with no emotions."
To them, he went on, "people who still have emotions and who
still talk in terms of right and wrong, good and evil, nation and
patriotism" are "tribal."
"Emotions and patriotism are [seen as] retrograde," he said.
"Borders like these historically fearsome ones in the Balkans are
unfashionable and simply must be changed, attitudes must be purified.
These are the men and women of a borderless world."
I personally remember, in 1992 in Zagreb, being told by the
deputy Croatian defense minister, "If you take away a people's right
to defend themselves, then you're morally responsible to defend them."
But the international governance world did not feel this way, and
neither did the European and American militaries, even though even the
U.N. Charter's Article 51 guarantees every people the right to defend
itself.
Yet when the rebuilt and reinvigorated Croatian army struck out
in the summer of 1995, stunning the world by retaking the
Serb-occupied Krajina and then heading toward the north to retake East
Slavonia, the first response from the United Nations and from
virtually all the Western world capitals was that they could simply
never do it.
The Clinton administration, which had predicted the Krajina would
not fall, stopped Croat forces from taking East Slavonia, which most
probably would have successfully ended the war.
"With hindsight," the author and historian William Shawcross
writes, "Vukovar can be seen as the last moment at which NATO forces
might have intervened to stop the fighting and to halt Yugoslavia's
fall into the abyss. But — there was no political will to undertake
such difficult action. Instead the paths of diplomacy and
humanitarianism were followed."

Aleksandar Sarovic

unread,

Aug 13, 2002, 1:12:25 PM8/13/02

"Mir Harven" <mha...@softhome.net> wrote in message
news:3d590cac...@news.tel.hr...

> http://www.washtimes.com/world/20020811-24444994.htm
>
> quoted without permission
>
> August 11, 2002
>
> U.N. intervention too late
>
> By Georgie Anne Geyer
>
> SPECIAL TO THE WASHINGTON TIMES
>
>
>

> VUKOVAR, Croatia - The exquisite old baroque Danubian city of

> Vukovar seemed almost too perfect for the neighborhood.
> It developed centuries ago in a very unusual and delicate manner
> for a small city in the Balkans, when traders from the north of Europe
> plied the Danube River southward, carrying not only goods to trade on
> these unknown peripheries of Europe but carrying the refined music of
> "Europe," its arts and architecture to the "wild" southern Serbs.

Why "wild"?

> Vukovar was an outpost - a plains' Salzburg, a little Prague, a

> faraway Tallinn. Even two centuries ago, its exquisite Baroque streets
> were lined with the best shops, with an impressive opera house and
> with a legendary hotel acclaimed across a Europe that always sniffed
> at "the Balkans."

> In fact, Vukovar was too perfect for the Balkans - and when the

It would be much better if the YFA defended its baracks without weapons.
Right?

> It was the same vengeance they would wreak on Bosnian Muslim
> Sarajevo, another Balkans jewel that, to them, didn't "belong." It was
> the special vengeance of the mountain people of the Dinaric Alps,
> united under Yugoslav President Slobodan Milosevic against the
> cultured and tolerant "European" elites of the valleys and plains.

This is an open racism that will make the whole western civilisation ends.

> Later, historians would define Vukovar that terrible fall as
> "Croatia's Stalingrad." The pattern of attack on the Danubian prize
> was the common one that the Serbs had been employing in their march
> across Bosnia and Croatia and their unsuccessful attempt to take
> Slovenia at the beginning of the war.

Stalingrad has never felt:-)

> The Yugoslav army provided the heavy weapons and infantry support
> to local Serb paramilitaries and the local Serbs, almost all of whom
> immediately turned on their neighbors in what they now grotesquely
> called "self-cleaning."
> The horrors seemed to grow as the Serbs took town after town,

> with no resistance from the unarmed and terrified local populations -

> and surely with hardly an outcry from the world, whose representative
> spokesmen were flocking sheepishly to conference after conference,
> begging the Serbs to tell them what they really wanted in order to

> stop fighting - and saying over and over in world forums that the Serb

> forces were too strong for them to fight.
> In Vukovar, the Serbs offered safe transit to hundreds of Croats
> who had, in their terror, taken refuge in a hospital. When on Nov. 9,
> 1991, the Yugoslav army entered the hospital (after promising U.N.
> representatives that they would not) and the Croats emerged, almost
> all were murdered or taken away to be executed in quonset huts that
> still stand today.

Why do they need this propaganda now? Do they prepare more aggressions world
wide?

> But this is a story about another fall day in Vukovar, this one
> eight years later in 1999. This story carries the entire saga of
> international governance still a step further, to the morning after
> and to what happens to an already victimized people once the war is
> over and they supposedly had been "saved."
> That beautiful fall day, a small group of foreign journalists had
> been driven by bus to the former museum building of Vukovar, courtesy
> of the office of the late Croatian President Franjo Tudjman.
> Five local officials, four men and one woman, sat at a long
> table in a lovely salon of the museum, which was itself filled with
> photos of the diabolical destruction of the town that lay in the snow
> just outside the windows.
> "In 1997, the Croatian government adopted a national
> reconciliation program," began Vladimir Stengl, a handsome,
> grey-haired man with a perpetually sorrowful look who was Vukovar's
> Croatian mayor, "and its main task is to establish trust and
> confidence."
> But soon the journalists' questions turned to talk of justice for
> the thousands of victims there, many of them still buried in
> undiscovered mass graves; and at this point, the mayor added sadly,
> "Unfortunately, the butchers of Vukovar are walking free on the

> streets of Yugoslavia - [Bosnian Serb military commander Ratko]
> Mladic, [Bosnian Serb political leader Radovan] Karadjic - because

> they are out of our control and the international community is unable
> to arrest them."

They are the only remained symbols of resistance to NWO. Milosevic is a
front line warrior.

> The leading Serb official at the table, Milos Voinovich, a little
> man with darting black eyes, immediately and coldly objected to the
> discourse. He did not want any words like "butchers" or "war
> criminals" to be used.
> "I am a lawyer," he proclaimed to the group, "a member of the
> judiciary. That is why I avoid using such words. This must be proven
> by a court."
> Since in the ferocity of the siege, more explosive devices fell

> on Vukovar in three months than during the entire Second World War -

> and since so many of the defenders of the historic city were young

> boys and girls, who fought as young people do, heroically - most of

> the city lay by then in shards and pieces. But one plot of land was
> spanking clean and neat: the Serb cemetery built by the attackers for
> their fallen. The monuments of marble graves have atop them, in stone,
> the hats of the hated World War II Serb Chetnik fighters.
> But despite the Serb destruction and despite the fact that the
> Serbs blew up a group of Croat houses to build the cemetery, the
> Croats, who won the area back in 1995, were not permitted to remove
> the monuments.
> In that same spirit, the Serbs changed the name of one of
> Vukovar's lovely old avenues from the name of a Croatian leader to the
> name of his assassin. That could not be changed, either, because the
> Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe declared it could
> not. The OSCE had immediately decreed that nothing should be changed
> for at least five years because it would hurt the Serbs' pride and
> might damage the reconciliation process they so insisted upon.
> Later, back in Zagreb, I discovered that one of the reasons for
> the considerable tension that bleak day in the museum was because the
> Serb official so offended by talk of "war criminals" was indeed a
> lawyer. In fact, he was the head of the Supreme Court in Vukovar, and
> it was he, during the siege, who was first in charge of choosing those
> to be taken to concentration camps and those to be killed.
> The international organizations would not even allow the Croats
> to look for the lost bodies of those still-missing young men and women

> - that would set back the process of "reconciliation" because telling

Well, well, I do not believe the Croats have any influence in . Why does The
Washington Times write such things now? The only reason that comes to my
mind is the US plans to act faster where ever they need around the world. It
does not mean more justice to the world but more interventions where they
have interests.

> I personally remember, in 1992 in Zagreb, being told by the
> deputy Croatian defense minister, "If you take away a people's right
> to defend themselves, then you're morally responsible to defend them."
> But the international governance world did not feel this way, and
> neither did the European and American militaries, even though even the
> U.N. Charter's Article 51 guarantees every people the right to defend
> itself.

How about the same right to the Serbs?

> Yet when the rebuilt and reinvigorated Croatian army struck out
> in the summer of 1995, stunning the world by retaking the
> Serb-occupied Krajina and then heading toward the north to retake East
> Slavonia, the first response from the United Nations and from
> virtually all the Western world capitals was that they could simply
> never do it.

The first response should be the Croatia attacked the UN protected Serbian
Krajina, actually they attacked the UN and should be punished for doing it.
But it was not punished and the reason it was not punished tells the
aggression was approved and supported by the rulers of the world. So do not
fuck with stunning surprise. We live in a moral toilet and you should know
it..

> The Clinton administration, which had predicted the Krajina would
> not fall, stopped Croat forces from taking East Slavonia, which most
> probably would have successfully ended the war.

So the war was not ended or it was not ended enough successfully?

> "With hindsight," the author and historian William Shawcross
> writes, "Vukovar can be seen as the last moment at which NATO forces
> might have intervened to stop the fighting and to halt Yugoslavia's

> fall into the abyss. But - there was no political will to undertake

> such difficult action. Instead the paths of diplomacy and
> humanitarianism were followed."
>

In those time NATO intervention would be unacceptable to not prepared people
around the world. Now the things change. Dear Croats you will not be able to
profit from it at all. You are a colony anyway. This is just introduction to
new aggressions around the world.

Aleksandar

Philip Davies

unread,

Aug 13, 2002, 4:11:25 PM8/13/02

This whole article is riddle with inconsistencies, blatent bias and many
incorrect facts.

> VUKOVAR, Croatia - The exquisite old baroque Danubian city of

> Vukovar was an outpost - a plains' Salzburg, a little Prague, a

> In fact, Vukovar was too perfect for the Balkans - and when the

> Serbs turned away from the other cities they had left in ruins after
> the first four months of the war they began in June 1991, they turned
> on this lovely Croatian Roman Catholic city with a special destructive
> vehemence.
> It was the same vengeance they would wreak on Bosnian Muslim
> Sarajevo, another Balkans jewel that, to them, didn't "belong." It was

Vukovar's population was equally Serb and Croat about 40-45% each. While
Sarajevo was a microcosm of Bosnia itself with no overall majority of any
ethnic group.

> the special vengeance of the mountain people of the Dinaric Alps,
> united under Yugoslav President Slobodan Milosevic against the
> cultured and tolerant "European" elites of the valleys and plains.
> Later, historians would define Vukovar that terrible fall as
> "Croatia's Stalingrad." The pattern of attack on the Danubian prize
> was the common one that the Serbs had been employing in their march
> across Bosnia and Croatia and their unsuccessful attempt to take
> Slovenia at the beginning of the war.
> The Yugoslav army provided the heavy weapons and infantry support
> to local Serb paramilitaries and the local Serbs, almost all of whom
> immediately turned on their neighbors in what they now grotesquely
> called "self-cleaning."
> The horrors seemed to grow as the Serbs took town after town,

> with no resistance from the unarmed and terrified local populations -

> stop fighting - and saying over and over in world forums that the Serb

> streets of Yugoslavia - [Bosnian Serb military commander Ratko]
> Mladic, [Bosnian Serb political leader Radovan] Karadjic - because

> they are out of our control and the international community is unable
> to arrest them."

Karadzic was a Bosnian Serb politician and had no involvment in Vukovar.
Mladic probably didn't either.

> on Vukovar in three months than during the entire Second World War -

> and since so many of the defenders of the historic city were young

> boys and girls, who fought as young people do, heroically - most of

> - that would set back the process of "reconciliation" because telling

Krajina was not next to the FRY like Eastern Slavonia so was much easier to
take as Yugoslav planes couldn't fly there directly as there was a no-fly
zone over Bosnia.

> The Clinton administration, which had predicted the Krajina would
> not fall, stopped Croat forces from taking East Slavonia, which most
> probably would have successfully ended the war.
> "With hindsight," the author and historian William Shawcross
> writes, "Vukovar can be seen as the last moment at which NATO forces
> might have intervened to stop the fighting and to halt Yugoslavia's

> fall into the abyss. But - there was no political will to undertake

Don

unread,

Aug 14, 2002, 1:34:31 AM8/14/02

Hello,

>mha...@softhome.net (Mir Harven) wrote in message
> http://www.washtimes.com/world/20020811-24444994.htm

> August 11, 2002
>
> U.N. intervention too late
>
> By Georgie Anne Geyer
>
> SPECIAL TO THE WASHINGTON TIMES

snip

> fall into the abyss. But — there was no political will to undertake

> such difficult action. Instead the paths of diplomacy and
> humanitarianism were followed."

It wasn't NATO's job. It was the job of the "West". And, a notable
failure of the West. Let's hope the West learned from the mistake.
dr

Mario Orlovcic

unread,

Aug 14, 2002, 2:42:01 AM8/14/02

Philip Davies wrote in message ...

>This whole article is riddle with inconsistencies, blatent bias and many
>incorrect facts.

While you haven't bothered to point any such things in this article?

>
>> VUKOVAR, Croatia - The exquisite old baroque Danubian city of
>> Vukovar seemed almost too perfect for the neighborhood.
>> It developed centuries ago in a very unusual and delicate manner
>> for a small city in the Balkans, when traders from the north of Europe
>> plied the Danube River southward, carrying not only goods to trade on
>> these unknown peripheries of Europe but carrying the refined music of
>> "Europe," its arts and architecture to the "wild" southern Serbs.
>> Vukovar was an outpost - a plains' Salzburg, a little Prague, a
>> faraway Tallinn. Even two centuries ago, its exquisite Baroque streets
>> were lined with the best shops, with an impressive opera house and
>> with a legendary hotel acclaimed across a Europe that always sniffed
>> at "the Balkans."
>> In fact, Vukovar was too perfect for the Balkans - and when the
>> Serbs turned away from the other cities they had left in ruins after
>> the first four months of the war they began in June 1991, they turned
>> on this lovely Croatian Roman Catholic city with a special destructive
>> vehemence.
>> It was the same vengeance they would wreak on Bosnian Muslim
>> Sarajevo, another Balkans jewel that, to them, didn't "belong." It was
>
>Vukovar's population was equally Serb and Croat about 40-45% each. While
>Sarajevo was a microcosm of Bosnia itself with no overall majority of any
>ethnic group.

That's where you're wrong pal. Vukovar had a Croat Majority of 47.2%, while
the Serb minority was about 32.3% according to the 1991 Yugoslav census.

And btw I was born there which never was part of any Serb state, which in
turn is bordered by Vojvodina which only came under Serb dominated rule in
1918.

Correct. But on the other hand the "Yugoslav" colonel who lead the final
assault against Vukovar was also appointed by Milosevic to head the "RSK"
millitary - Momcilo Periscic. You got to rememder this artcile is about the
"Int'l community's" inital response to the even in Yugoslavia.

Since maybe you're not fully aquainted with the events there. & probably
since you're an American who confuses the war in Bosnia to that of the
previous one in Croatia. We're talking about 1991 here. Before Bosnia
seceded from Yugoslavia a year later, before there was any "No-Fly Zone"
over Bosnia, the EC's decision to recognise Slovenia & Croatia, and the
formatioin of FRY which comrised only Serbia & Montenegro. The JNA (The
precursor to the VJ) was not only fully involved in the war in Croatia, but
also prior to Yugoslavia's disintergration they even armed the rebel Serb
insurgents there.

As far as the "Kraijna" region in Croatia is concerened. It's a Serb
parastate like "Repuplika Srpka" in neighbouring Bosnia, where a third of
Croatia's territory was under Serb occupation.

Mario Orlovcic

unread,

Aug 14, 2002, 2:43:22 AM8/14/02

Don wrote in message <739a251b.02081...@posting.google.com>...

You know what? You sound very much like David Rieff here and I don't mean It
as an insult.

Mir Harven

unread,

Aug 14, 2002, 5:40:02 AM8/14/02

On Wed, 14 Aug 2002 16:42:01 +1000, "Mario Orlovcic"
<orlo...@tig.com.au> wrote:

cut

>>> But soon the journalists' questions turned to talk of justice for
>>> the thousands of victims there, many of them still buried in
>>> undiscovered mass graves; and at this point, the mayor added sadly,
>>> "Unfortunately, the butchers of Vukovar are walking free on the
>>> streets of Yugoslavia - [Bosnian Serb military commander Ratko]
>>> Mladic, [Bosnian Serb political leader Radovan] Karadjic - because
>>> they are out of our control and the international community is unable
>>> to arrest them."
>>
>>Karadzic was a Bosnian Serb politician and had no involvment in Vukovar.
>>Mladic probably didn't either.
>
>Correct. But on the other hand the "Yugoslav" colonel who lead the final
>assault against Vukovar was also appointed by Milosevic to head the "RSK"
>millitary - Momcilo Periscic. You got to rememder this artcile is about the
>"Int'l community's" inital response to the even in Yugoslavia.

One small correction: it was Mile Mrkšić, an ICTY indictee
up the river, not Momčilo Perišić.

Don

unread,

Aug 14, 2002, 6:21:53 AM8/14/02

Hello,

>"Mario Orlovcic" <orlo...@tig.com.au> wrote in message news:<ajctd9

> Don wrote in message <739a251b.02081...@posting.google.com>...

> >It wasn't NATO's job. It was the job of the "West". And, a notable
> >failure of the West. Let's hope the West learned from the mistake.
> >dr
>
> You know what? You sound very much like David Rieff here and I don't mean It
> as an insult.

I should have said it was the job of the UN, and then the West. Both
failed. But, like I think Rieff might agree, it's first about
security. Here's a related take on the issue:

Confronting the warlord culture

By Sarah Sewall, 6/6/2002

BY INSISTING that the United Nations do the ''dirty work'' of
nation-building without ensuring a secure foundation upon which to
build, President George W. Bush is effectively setting up the UN to
fail in Afghanistan, much as his father's policies sowed the seeds for
failure in Somalia. The US refusal to support disarming and defusing
the warlord culture renders even the most effective nation-building
efforts a Band-Aid at best.

Accommodating warlords was the linchpin of the initial US intervention
strategy in Somalia. This pragmatic approach acknowledged the reality
of factionalism in that lawless country. There was only one problem.
It failed to weaken the fiefdoms that had torn the country apart. No
matter, as long as the United States wanted to drop off food and get
out. But it mattered enormously when the UN was asked to help create a
functioning state.

The UN mission was placed at risk by a Somali warlord who decided that
the foreign peacekeepers had become a liability. The UN lacked the
requisite capabilities to confront him. A US operation went bad,
Americans died, and the entire UN effort unraveled. Somalia largely
reverted to its preintervention lawlessness. US officials now speak of
terrorist cells and other threats gestating in the chaos that is
Somalia today.

At the time, critics saw the UN peacekeeping effort in Somalia as
proof that nation-building was a mistake. However, the real failure in
Somalia was not nation-building per se, but the failure to first
create a secure foundation on which other efforts would depend.

Security is a precondition for political reform, economic development,
and other aspects of what is pejoratively termed ''nation-building.''
(It was called ''postwar reconstruction'' when we did it for Europe,
where it was considered both self-serving and heroic.) Even the most
energetic and well-resourced efforts cannot construct a nation amid
the shifting sands of unaccountable, well-armed minidespots.

In Afghanistan today, Deputy Defense Secretary Paul D. Wolfowitz calls
regional powers with a great deal of autonomy a matter of Afghan
culture. He warns against intervening too actively on behalf of the
central government for fear that people may become too reliant upon
that intervention.

This classic conservative suspicion about government, which lies at
the heart of objections to nation-building, seems curiously misapplied
to nations long suffering from the absence of government. How can
Afghanistan hope for a different future if nation-building simply
augments power structures of the past? The Bush administration seems
to think that it has learned the lessons of Somalia by not messing
with the warlords and by leaving the nation-building to others. This
is simply wrong.

Confronting the warlords is neither easy nor the best use of American
troops at this moment. Our most pressing security concerns lie
elsewhere. But the peace in Afghanistan is fragile at best. It can be
undone by the concerted efforts of one nasty regional leader. And its
undoing will have significant costs.

For reconstruction to proceed, for any hope of future stability, there
must be a modicum of security beyond Kabul. If the Afghan central
government cannot do this (which is doubtful in the near term), a
capable, neutral force that can disarm and dissuade the warlords is
vital. No one wants to contemplate the numbers, the capabilities, the
costs required. But it is unrealistic to expect sustainable progress
without facing up to the country's security requirements.

It is time for the United States to stop using the UN simply to
provide our forces with an exit strategy and to keep American hands
unsullied by nation-building. The US government should either create
the possibilities for peace before asking others to maintain it, or
the administration should support follow-on forces that are up to the
challenge they will face.

We need to learn the right lessons from past failures. Before handing
off our responsibilities, we should ensure some possibility of success
for those who would help clean up the mess.

Sarah Sewall, former deputy assistant secretary of defense for
peacekeeping, is program director at the Carr Center for Human Rights
Policy at Harvard University's Kennedy School of Government.

This story ran on page A21 of the Boston Globe on 6/6/2002.
© Copyright 2002 Globe Newspaper Company.

Philip Davies

unread,

Aug 14, 2002, 5:13:56 PM8/14/02

"Mario Orlovcic" <orlo...@tig.com.au> wrote in message

news:ajctap$d0p$1...@lust.ihug.co.nz...

> Philip Davies wrote in message ...
> >This whole article is riddle with inconsistencies, blatent bias and many
> >incorrect facts.
>
> While you haven't bothered to point any such things in this article?

I have done lower down...

Who made up the other 20.5%?

Milosevic wasn't President of Yugoslavia then.

No I am not American...I am British.

> previous one in Croatia. We're talking about 1991 here. Before Bosnia

No it was 1995..."Yet when the rebuilt and reinvigorated Croatian army

struck out in the summer of 1995, stunning the world by retaking the"

> seceded from Yugoslavia a year later, before there was any "No-Fly Zone"

++

unread,

Aug 14, 2002, 8:59:30 PM8/14/02

Aleksandar Sarovic wrote:

>
> Why do they need this propaganda now? Do they prepare more aggressions world
> wide?

Visit of Stip Mesic was just before G.A. Geyer wrote the article?

Mario Orlovcic

unread,

Aug 15, 2002, 2:41:06 AM8/15/02

Mir Harven wrote in message <3d5a2266...@news.tel.hr>...

But at least Miro I was sure that the final assult on Vukovar was lead by a
colonel.

But on the other hand I should better check my references before any posts.
Thanks for the correction though.

And btw I do have a copy of "Bitka Za Vukovar".

Mario Orlovcic

unread,

Aug 15, 2002, 2:57:38 AM8/15/02

"Yugoslavs" (i.e. non commited ethnic persons) 7.3%, Russians 2.1%,
Hungarians 1.6% and other ethnicities 7.1%

You're confusing the now defunct Socialist Federal Republic Of Yugoslavia
(SFRJ) to that of It's self proclaimed "sucessor" The Federal Republic Of
Yugoslavia (SRJ), which was formed in 27/4/92. At that time the president of
the collective presidency of the SFRJ is also the president of the republic
of Croatia - Stipe Mesic. And of course maybe you know that Slobodan
Milosevic was also the president of Serbia at that time.

But that fact doesn't really matter to the JNA since they acted
independently to that of the collective SFRJ president, & invaded Slovenia &
Croatia not only to preseve Yugoslavia's territorial integrity, but also use
those declarations of independence by Slovenia & Croatia as a much nedded
pretext to overthrow those legally & democratically elected governments
there.

Once again you're confusing which Yugoslavia I'm talking about, but also the
events that transpired there.

Mir Harven

unread,

Aug 15, 2002, 8:41:20 AM8/15/02

On Thu, 15 Aug 2002 16:41:06 +1000, "Mario Orlovcic"
<orlo...@tig.com.au> wrote:

Good, Mario.
And they tell us: forgive (or, better-forget).
Both options are out of question.

http://www.ess.uwe.ac.uk/comexpert/ANX/X-A.htm
http://www.hr/hrvatska/WAR/WAR.html

http://vukovar.8m.net/

SERBIAN PARAMILITARY ACTIVITY
Vukovar County is in eastern Croatia, separated from Serbia by the
Danube River. According to the 1991 census, the population of Vukovar
County was 84,024, of which 37.4 per cent was Serb, 43.7 per cent
Croat, 7.4 per cent 'Yugoslav'and 11.6 per cent 'others'.

Serbian paramilitary activity
On 1 April 1991, in the town of Borovo in Vukovar County, six weeks
before Croatian Stipe Mesic was to become the president of the
collective head of state, some of Seselj's troops moved into the
village of Borovo. The 'Cetniks'had been sent to the region to protect
the minority Serbs from the increasingly nationalistic Croatians. The
'Cetniks'allegedly surrounded two police patrols, injuring five, one
critically. Barricades and armed sentries were established at various
locations in the region, but reports suggest that they were mainly
staffed by Serbs from the neighbouring communities of Vukovar and
Vinkovci. Seselj, however, had personally visited Vukovar the night of
31 March. The 'Cetniks'remained in the region and the JNA remained
silent and made no attempt to disarm them.

Seselj returned to the region on 21 April 1991 to give a speech in the
village of Jagodnjak. The speech prompted the district public
prosecutor's office to issue a warrant for Seselj's arrest on 7 May
for provoking and fomenting national hatred and intolerance between
Croatians and Serbians.

On 8 May 1991, a gun-fight broke out in the region between police in
the village of Borovo Selo and 14 members of the 'Cetniks'accompanied
by two members of the Serbian Renaissance Movement, and six local
Serbs. The shooting began as a result of an alleged ambush of the
police by the 'Cetniks', in which 12 police were killed and at least
one had his eyes extracted.

Seselj publicly acknowledged that his Cetniks killed the 12 Borovo
Selo police, but insisted that the altercation resulted after an
attack by members of the Croatian Ministry of Internal Affairs and was
an alleged ambush. Seselj confirmed that the eyes of one policeman
were missing and attributed it to the strong impact of the bullet from
the Thompson automatic sub- machine-gun to the head of the victim.

The names of the 12 or 13 police that were killed were not disclosed
in the reports, nor were the names of the witnesses. According to a
Newsday report, the deputy commander of the Cetnik operation was 23
year-old Oliver Denis Barret. A Los Angeles Times report did name
Vladimir Mrklja, a 21 year-old unemployed Serbian, as one of the
'Cetniks' involved in the incident.

The battle over Vukovar raged in the summer and fall months of 1991. A
report quoted Arkan, while in battle over Serb-populated areas of
Croatia, as saying, 'We have to free our children and our women which
are holding [sic] as hostages there'.

On 14 October 1991, Serbian irregulars and members of the JNA entered
the village of Bapska. In the first few days of occupation, 70
Croatian houses were burned and 18 Croatian civilians killed. In
November 1991, Arkan's troops arrived and the assaults against the
Croatians increased.

A Yugoslav army internal memorandum, signed by Colonel Milan Eremija a
month before the fall of Vukovar and sent to the army's regional
command office, identified two militia groups in the Vukovar region as
dangerous to 'military morale'. One was a band led by Arkan and the
other, the Cetniks led by Seselj. The memorandum said that there were
many paramilitary formations from Serbia and self-proclaimed
volunteers, whose primary motive was not fighting against the enemy
but robbery of private property and inhuman treatment of Croatian
citizens. The memorandum reportedly recommended that all paramilitary
groups in the area be disarmed.

In November of 1991, Serb militia forces devastated the city of
Vukovar. According to a New York Times report, during the final days
of the Vukovar battle, Western reporters saw Serbian soldiers pulling
men in civilian clothes from columns of refugees and shooting them on
the spot. Women, children and the elderly were among the victims. In
late November 1991, the last defenders of Vukovar, which had been
predominantly Croatian, hid in cellars with their families to escape
the shelling. Reportedly, those who had refused to surrender when the
army took the city's centre were blasted when guerrillas lobbed
grenades to flush out each basement. Reports describe that on 19
November 1991, Serbian paramilitary units under the command of Vlado
Kovacevic took Vukovar civilians from their basements to the Pekara
bakery, where they were reportedly killed with knives and burned in a
baker's oven.

According to several witness testimonies, Seselj himself was in
Vukovar on 19 November 1991. He allegedly paid each of his troops
23,000 dinars. He gave the instruction, 'Surrender and stab to death'.
About 960 persons were allegedly stabbed to death that day.

On 19 November 1991, having heard a report that hundreds of wounded
Croatians, many with gangrene, were hiding in the hospital basement
without medicine or electricity, U.N. peace envoy Cyrus Vance and
International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC) representatives
reportedly demanded access to the hospital in Vukovar. The field
commander of the Serb-led Yugoslav army, which had captured the city,
did not permit access. The commander reportedly said that the hospital
was mined, and he could not guarantee their safety.

Concurrent with the Vance/ICRC visit, Yugoslav Army soldiers and Serb
paramilitaries put Vukovar hospital patients and medical personnel on
several buses to Ovcara and frequently beat and mistreated the
prisoners during the journey. Along the way, the buses stopped at the
JNA barracks where the prisoners were again beaten. Upon their arrival
at Ovcara, the prisoners were stripped of their belongings and further
beaten. One witness stated that at least two men were beaten to death.
On 20 November, the Yugoslav army soldiers divided the prisoners into
groups of 20 and loaded each group onto a truck to be driven away.
Fifteen minutes later the truck would return, empty and ready to take
on another group of prisoners. A witness said that many of the Serb
paramilitaries spoke openly of the shootings. One gunman reportedly
said: 'Since five in the afternoon to one in the morning, we were
killing them in Ovcara'. According to the 29 November 1991 edition of
the Croatian magazine Globus, a Serbian soldier who introduced himself
as one of Arkan's men told a reporter who visited Vukovar one day
after it fell: 'We summarily executed 300 prisoners. We have a
people's court here, you shoot and that's it.'

Several witnesses related that several factions were involved in the
imprisonment and eventual mass killing of the Croatians from Vukovar
Hospital: the White Eagles, the Serbian Volunteer Guard (led by
Arkan), the Cetniks (led by Seselj), the first company of the
territorial defence unit of Vukovar, and other Yugoslav army regulars.
The SAO Krajina Police (possibly Martic's Militia) were also
mentioned. A witness mentioned several individuals as perpetrators of
the detention, beating, and killing of between 200 to 300 Croatians.
The witness identified six of the men who beat the prisoners while
they waited at the JNA barracks to be transported to Ovcara. However,
their names are not disclosed for confidentiality and prosecutorial
reasons. The witness identified the officer who directed the Vukovar
hospital evacuation and named four others. Names are not disclosed for
confidentiality and prosecutorial reasons.

In the fall of 1992, international forensic experts discovered a
shallow mass grave about six miles south-east of Vukovar. The
scientists found the mass grave by following detailed map information
provided by a Vukovar hospital patient, who said he escaped from a
truck full of prisoners by jumping out. At the mass grave, the
scientists saw hundreds of bullet holes in nearby saplings and mounds
of metal casings from spent machine-gun bullets. The experts
reportedly concluded that the grave was the site of a machine-gun
execution of about 200 people. They found an area of disturbed earth
and, within minutes, skeletons. Reportedly the area looked as if a
bulldozer had shoveled out a trench. Scientists had a list of 180
missing patients and 30 staff members who were in the hospital when
Vukovar fell as well as hospital records showing what wounds the
patients had when they were admitted to the hospital.

Clyde Snow, an American forensic anthropologist who headed the team
investigating the Vukovar case, said in a January 1993 interview that
evidence found at the mass grave was consistent with witnesses'
testimony of how Croatian patients were taken from the hospital by
Serb combatants. Snow indicated that the artifacts found on the bodies
were Croatian, and that the bodies were suspiciously close to where
witnesses said they would be. According to Snow, Roman Catholic
crosses and rosary beads found on two bodies exhumed at the site
suggested that the dead were Croats. Of the two bodies examined thus
far, both had gunshot wounds to the head. Snow's team, organized by a
US-based group called Physicians for Human Rights, released a report
in January 1993.

Seselj and his men were also said to have been at Velepromet, the
holding facility for civilians who were eventually taken to other
prison camps. This report stated that with help from local 'Cetniks',
250 persons were stripped and killed with a knife. The bodies were
stacked one upon another, face down. Croatians were forced to bury the
bodies at an old brickyard at Sajmiste. From there, the corpses were
transported to Grabovo and thrown into a hole.

As a result of the fighting in Vukovar, 1,798 people are known to have
died and 2,500 are missing on the Croatian side. The Serbian side has
not released casualty figures. Another report puts the death toll at
5,000. Slavko Dokmanovic, the Serb-installed president of Vukovar's
city council, said that about 5,000 people had died in the fight but
did not indicate how he calculated the figure.

The city of Vukovar sustained massive destruction: every tree was
reduced to splinters; every vehicle perforated; every roof torn off;
not a single home habitable; no shop, church, or public building
intact; and a rubber factory which had provided 60,000 jobs was in
shambles. A report said that the stench of rotting flesh emanated from
under the piles of rubble. In September 1992, a reporter observed in
residential neighbourhoods, reportedly with no strategic value, that
every single home had been gutted by grenades, tank fire, and
machine-gun salvos, every window broken, and every roof blown off.
Some homes had Orthodox Serbian cross painted on ruined walls, others
the Catholic cross of Croatia, symbols reportedly intended to protect
the homes from respective opposing armies.

According to a San Francisco Chronicle report, Arkan's troops were
responsible for much of the destruction in the Croatian
neighbourhoods. Another report attributed the wreckage to the work of
Yugoslav federal forces, and quoted Arkan as saying that the
destruction of Croatian 'fascists' had been necessary in order to
protect against 'genocide'. Shortly after the fall of Vukovar, Arkan
reportedly said that his forces were under the direct command of the
Yugoslav armed forces. A news article claims that he told reporters in
Erdut that Osijek would fall more easily than Vukovar.

By the end of November 1991, Vukovar was named the capital of the
Serbian Autonomous Region of Slavonia, Baranja, and West Srem. After
surveying the ruins of Vukovar, Belgrade, Mayor Milorad Unkovic vowed
to rebuild the city as a monument to Serbian determination. Unkovic
told a handful of unshaven, middle-aged guerrillas, 'To rebuild this
town is the humane thing to do. It's something that has to be done for
the people who lived here and wish to remain.' These guerillas, who
had stopped looting to join the Belgrade delegation, wore Serbian
nationalist insignia.

Serb paramilitary groups also allegedly operated in Lovas and Borovo,
two villages within Vukovar county. Arkan himself was once in Borovo,
at which time he personally killed a village resident in front of
witnesses.

The attack on Lovas began on 10 October 1991. During the first few
days of the attack, 'Cetniks' allegedly killed over 70 persons and
burned over 50 houses. The report identified the 'Cetnik units' as
those of Dusan Silni and the White Eagles.

On 22 December 1991, a resident of Lovas was taken from his house with
another civilian to the town police station, where Arkan's units were
located, along with White Eagles and Knindza's units. The citizens
were beaten, kicked, and abused. They were then taken to a garage with
other villagers, and three of them were crucified and made to sing
Croatian songs. Eventually all of the villagers were released.

In addition, an Amnesty International Report from March 1992 refers to
numerous summary executions of civilians in the Lovas area. These
executions were carried out by several different paramilitary groups,
including the Beli Orlovi (White Eagles), Dusan Silni (Dusan the
Great), Arkan's and Seselj's men, Jovicevci and Marticevci.
Specifically, the report notes that on an unspecified date, 51
Croatian civilians were killed by Serb irregulars, and an additional
17 civilians were forced to hold hands and enter a minefield. Many of
them were seriously wounded in the subsequent explosions.

Serb paramilitary forces were also active in Tovarnik, a town
south-east of Vukovar city, on the border separating Croatia from
Serbia. According to reports, on 7 September 1991, Dusan Silni forces
killed a Catholic priest and set homes on fire there. Reports also
describe how, between 27 and 30 September 1991, a Serbian paramilitary
unit called Drago's Group raped two 14 year-old girls in front of
their grandmother and killed approximately 80 people.

In Borovo Naselje, a local paramilitary unit allegedly detained
civilians and transported them to a prison camp at Stajicevo in
Serbia. A witness stated that during the ride to the prison camp,
members of the paramilitary unit beat the prisoners. The same witness
stated that the Stajicevo prison camp held 6,500 people from Vukovar
County and that many women were detained there.

jjprr.davies

unread,

Aug 15, 2002, 3:38:09 PM8/15/02

> You're confusing the now defunct Socialist Federal Republic Of Yugoslavia
> (SFRJ) to that of It's self proclaimed "sucessor" The Federal Republic Of
> Yugoslavia (SRJ), which was formed in 27/4/92. At that time the president
of
> the collective presidency of the SFRJ is also the president of the
republic
> of Croatia - Stipe Mesic. And of course maybe you know that Slobodan

Tudjman was President of Croatia in 1991. Mesic was Croatia's representitve
on the Yugoslav presidency. The republic's took it in turn to be the head of
state.

> Milosevic was also the president of Serbia at that time.

So he therefore wasn't commander in chief of the JNA which is the point I am
making.

> But that fact doesn't really matter to the JNA since they acted
> independently to that of the collective SFRJ president, & invaded Slovenia
&
> Croatia not only to preseve Yugoslavia's territorial integrity, but also
use
> those declarations of independence by Slovenia & Croatia as a much nedded
> pretext to overthrow those legally & democratically elected governments
> there.

How can an army invade it's own country? They were attacked in their own
barracks.

Profesor.Baltazar

unread,

Aug 15, 2002, 9:13:57 PM8/15/02

"jjprr.davies" wrote:

> How can an army invade it's own country?

The same way the British invaded what was to become the US of A, you twit. Once
independence was declared, it was no longer "it's country".

> They were attacked in their own barracks.

Yeah, the poor fuckers were just defending themselves by leveling the city
beyond recognition, massacring the wounded at Ovcara and expelling the non-Serb
population.

Mario Orlovcic

unread,

Aug 16, 2002, 6:07:18 AM8/16/02

jjprr.davies wrote in message

>> You're confusing the now defunct Socialist Federal Republic Of Yugoslavia
>> (SFRJ) to that of It's self proclaimed "sucessor" The Federal Republic
Of
>> Yugoslavia (SRJ), which was formed in 27/4/92. At that time the president
>of
>> the collective presidency of the SFRJ is also the president of the
>republic
>> of Croatia - Stipe Mesic. And of course maybe you know that Slobodan
>
>Tudjman was President of Croatia in 1991. Mesic was Croatia's representitve
>on the Yugoslav presidency. The republic's took it in turn to be the head
of
>state.

Well duhhhhh!!!!!

I should've said that Stipe Mesic is the president of Croatia in the present
tense. My mistake. Although I don't like this chimp he was indeed Tudjman's
successor.

>> Milosevic was also the president of Serbia at that time.
>
>So he therefore wasn't commander in chief of the JNA which is the point I
am
>making.
>
>> But that fact doesn't really matter to the JNA since they acted
>> independently to that of the collective SFRJ president, & invaded
Slovenia
>&
>> Croatia not only to preseve Yugoslavia's territorial integrity, but also
>use
>> those declarations of independence by Slovenia & Croatia as a much nedded
>> pretext to overthrow those legally & democratically elected governments
>> there.
>
>How can an army invade it's own country? They were attacked in their own
>barracks.

You're a pathetic twerp you know that! Ok then I'll ask you another question
then, how can the army of a federated republic in which the federal
structure ceases to function, has the audacity to invade the soreign de
facto independent states of Slovenia & Croatia without the approval of the
commander of chief?

Sasha

unread,

Aug 16, 2002, 2:13:41 PM8/16/02

mha...@softhome.net (Mir Harven) wrote in message news:<3d590cac...@news.tel.hr>...

> http://www.washtimes.com/world/20020811-24444994.htm
>
> quoted without permission
>

Wow, Vukovar is "Croatia's Stalingrad". It is interesting to watch a
creation of national mythology while it transpires. Vukovar was only
sidekick job of JA, war was going on somewhere else. It was surrounded
and left "behind the enemy lines" remember? Anyway, you lost that war
hopelessly and now you turn that battle into a myth, he, he, he. God
for you, just go on.

Of course that more shells fell on Vukovar in 1991 then during the
entire WWII since there was no battle for Vukovar in WWII. Correct me
if i am wrong but i bet no more then one shell (maybe two?) was fired
off on Vukovar in that period. Interesting to note that "tolerant
European elites of the valleys and plains" created death-camp
Jasenovac in WWII not far away from Vukovar, while "wild southern
Serbs" didn't. That is due to cultural differences too i guess.

Since Serbs made only 32.2% of the population of Vukovar, they
probably lived in sewers and not one of "beautiful Croatian Roman
Catholic Baroque" building is built by them. Serbs were probably only
strangers in the "plains' Salzburg, little Prague" since they didn't
speak German-Czech, i guess. After all, one simply have to look into
how different is (not) Vukovar from Sremski Karlovci (canter of Serbs
in Slavonia) to decide that this wild people couldn't have contributed
to the "glory" of Vukovar at all.

BTW, who won the last elections in Vukovar before the war? Was that
SDS? Were they allowed to create government in the city? No? C,c,c,c -
those "southern savages", those "mountain people of the Dinaric Alps";
they actually wanted to enter the sacred Vukovar offices! That must
have been insult to all "tolerant European elites". What they could
have done else then to kill the would-be mayor.

Face it; croatian nationalists destroyed Vukovar by intolerance as
much as JA did it with guns. Both sides bear their part of blame. You
cannot kill people around and expect to do it with impunity. Maybe
when you get older and wiser, you will get to understand some simple
facts of life. Until then,

Sasa Aleksandric

Barry Marjanovich

unread,

Aug 16, 2002, 3:39:02 PM8/16/02

http://www.vido.ldh.org/images/serbia.jpg

Vjesnik, April 30, 1998, p. 3.

VUKOVAR IS THE GRAVEST "GREATER SERBIAN" CRIME AND THE MORAL BANKRUPTCY OF
THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY

The scenes aired to the world from the location of the exhumation at the
Vukovar New Cemetery "Dubrava" from last Tuesday were horrific. This is
where the exhumation of the largest mass grave in post-war Europe is taking
place. After seven years, the unique crime, not only for the soullessness of
the perpetrators - rebel Serbs and the Yugoslav National Army (JNA) - but
because of the fact that the consciences of the international community
could watch it happening from day to day on their TV screens, saw the light
of day. How successful were its representatives, the watchers of the modern
world, when the TV cameras transmitted the picture of this 100 meter long
grave, where 14 rows of 1,200 killed Croatian soldiers and civilians were
buried after the occupation of Vukovar in 1991? It is enough just to look at
the mass of black bodybags of the those killed then buried two meters
underground. Those people who used bulldozers to dig graves did not respect
even the minimum requirements of international conventions: the bodies of
those killed were crowded and were thrown one on top of the other, the
corpses intertwined and wrapped by black bodybags, the kind used by the
Yugoslav Army.

The day after, on Wednesday, arrived one hundred members of 21 families at
the cemetery. All of them came to face the truth and the confirm the fate of
their next of kin, to place a signature on a paper, confirming that seven
years of searching and hope - that was somewhere deep inside them - has come
to an end. There was an uncomfortable silence at the Vukovar cemetery on the
second day of identification. People dressed in black, dismal expressions in
their teary eyes, rain, pale faces and the occasional sob, bore witness to
the memories of 1991.

"May God forgive me for not being able to forgive and forget: I see the
murderer of my son in each of them," stated a teary eyed mother of 21 year
old Croatian soldier, Robert Pinjuh, whose remains were identified along
with those of his daughter, Violeta, and his relative, Boris.

Mirko and his family identified his brother, Croatian soldier Emil
Aleksandar, and his wife. However, the search for the body of their 2 year
old son, Matej, who was also killed with them in the shelling, continues.

THIS WAS MEANT FOR US ALL, ONLY GOD SAVED US FROM THIS DESTINY

The mass grave at the New Cemetery is also visited by surviving defenders,
former prisoners of Serbian camps, loudly commenting, "this was meant for us
all. Only God saved us from this destiny."

The identification continued on Thursday. Another 20 families came to the
cemetery to identify their dead. The first funerals will be held on Saturday
May 2, the anniversary of the murder of 12 Croatian police officers in
Borovo Selo, the first Slavonian victims of Serbian aggression.

How do the representatives of the international community feel while
supervising the exhumation of the largest mass grave in Europe since WWII?

One must be reminded that some of their employees, Cyrus Vance, for an
example, as the representative of the United Nations, were in Vukovar at the
same time the massacre of Croats was taking place. Vance was right in front
of the Vukovar Hospital and did not deem it becoming to hand over a list of
the wounded to the Croatian side.

Dr. Slobodan Lang made an apt comment at the Vukovar grave, "if the
international community had a more serious way of saving Vukovar, these
people might have been protected." Lang commented, "Now, the consequences of
the collapse of humanitarian law in Vukovar will continue to shake the
international community for a long time."

SHOULDER TO SHOULDER WITH VANCE, HUMAN RIGHTS ORGANISATIONS DID NOTHING

It is time to call all those who were on location as silence monitors. They
did - nothing. Shoulder to shoulder with Vance were representatives of
various organisations for human rights - Amnesty International, the
International Committee for the Red Cross, commissions for human rights and
refugees, the Security Council, Medicins sans Frontiers, European Community
Monitors! Do they feel any guilt? Will they, at least, raise their voices
today for Croatian suffering and testify as to what they saw in Vukovar, at
the cemetery, Ovcara, the hospital and other mass graves from the Danube
Valley region and the rest of Croatia, where thousands of victims have been
exhumed and so many more people are classified as missing.

800,000 PROJECTILES - THE FORCE OF AN ATOMIC BOMB - RAINED ON VUKOVAR

During the days of mindlessness, claims former witness from the hospital and
currently Minister for Defenders, Dr. Jure Njavro, over 800,000 projectiles
fired, which is equal to the force of an atomic bomb. Almost 4,000 dead and
a totally demolished city are the tragic testimony to the fact that, after
the cynical behaviour of the world, Croatia - through its own victims -
stopped the seventy year advance of Serbia toward the West, they were
stopped in Vukovar.

EXECUTION TRIO FREELY LIVES IN SERBIA AS HUNDREDS OF FUNERALS WILL BE HELD
WEEKLY

Because of all this, hundreds of funerals will be held weekly in Vukovar
over the next month and a half. At the same time, the execution trio from
the "Vukovar execution team", as their own countrymen called them, are
freely living in Serbia. Nobody is taking them to the Hague to testify to
the fate of 260 men who were taken into custody and removed from the Vukovar
Hospital and were executed at the scaffold at Ovcara. The country they did
this work for honoured them with the highest military ranks.

The international community - for their crimes of which Yugoslavia is their
sponsoring country, with no intention to extradite them - has taken a
determined stand: it scorned on Croatia for its not co-operating with the
Hague court.

http://www.vido.ldh.org/images/serbia.jpg

Barry Marjanovich

unread,

Aug 16, 2002, 6:42:39 PM8/16/02

http://www.vido.ldh.org/images/serbia.jpg

CROATIA WEEKLY, Zagreb, August 20, 1999

GENEVA CONVENTIONS SHOULD HAVE BEEN ENFORCED IN VUKOVAR IN 1991

Zdenka Farkas, the head of the Apel Center, stressed that 1,700 persons are
still unaccounted for who are not listed as missing, but were apprehended
and taken away by the Yugoslav Army and Serbian paramilitaries

Activists from the Apel Center, organized by the families of Croatian
citizens (civilians and soldiers) who were incarcerated, forcibly detained
and went missing during the war, lit a thousand candles on the sidewalk in
front of the International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC) headquarters in
Zagreb. "On the fiftieth anniversary of the Geneva Conventions, we wanted to
turn public attention to the fate of the victims in 120 mass graves and of
1,692 persons who are still being sought and about whose fate their families
still know nothing," said Zdenka Farkas, the head of the Apel Center. The
center asked the Zagreb ICRC mission chief, Phillipe Gallard, to answer
whether the Geneva Conventions on the protection of war victims should have
protected the wounded and medical personnel in the Vukovar Hospital, Vukovar
residents and Croatian defenders who laid down their arms in the tragic
events in Vukovar in 1991. "Did the ICRC have an obligation to monitor
Geneva Convention compliance at that time?" asked Farkas, explaining that
the ICRC was being asked that question precisely because it sponsored the
Geneva Conventions of 1949. She also stated that the families of slain and
missing persons will seek financial aid from the international community for
the excavation of all mass graves. Gallard stressed in his statement that
the Geneva Conventions were the most widely recognized, but, unfortunately,
the most widely violated international documents in the world today. For
that reason, he said, their fiftieth anniversary is not a day for grand
celebrations, but an opportunity to reflect upon and remember the victims of
war in Croatia, Kosovo, Bosnia, Congo and elsewhere in the world. He
emphasized that the ICRC will continue to be engaged in the search for
victims of war. At a press conference organized to mark the fiftieth
anniversary of the Geneva Conventions, Farkas said she thought ICRC
delegates were not sufficiently familiar with the situation in Croatia and
were unable to cope with the tragedy of those missing and captured in the
aggression against Croatia. The center, she said, expects the ICRC to do
more than just publish an announced book with the names of the missing.
Farkas stressed that 1,700 persons are still unaccounted for who are not
listed as missing, but were apprehended and taken away by the Yugoslav Army
and Serbian paramilitaries. For that reason the Apel Center suggested that
the ICRC publish a book containing the names of victims of Geneva Convention
violations, not merely a book with the names of the missing in Croatia.

http://www.vido.ldh.org/images/serbia.jpg

Profesor.Baltazar

unread,

Aug 16, 2002, 7:22:28 PM8/16/02

Sasha wrote:

> Anyway, you lost that war
> hopelessly and now you turn that battle into a myth, he, he, he.

Marjanovich, Todorovac, sad opet ovaj poremeceni... Ima li itko normalan na ovim grupama?

Barry Marjanovich

unread,

Aug 16, 2002, 7:52:49 PM8/16/02

VUKOVAR NEW CEMETERY - THE EXHUMATION OF ONE OF
THE LARGEST EXISTING MASS GRAVES IN EUROPE
D.N., Croatian Information Centre Zagreb, April 29, 1998

The exhumation of 1,200 human remains from the Vukovar New Cemetery
commenced yesterday. The bodies were buried in the grave during the Serbian
aggression on Vukovar and immediately after the Serbian and Yugoslav Army
occupation of the town. A team of experts from the Croatian Government
Commission for Detained and Missing Persons, on Tuesday, unearthed a trench
with the remains of 42 persons who were buried lined up next to each other.
Most of the victims were placed in Yugoslav Army body bags. Only a few bags
had name tags.

According to the President of the Commission, Lt. Colonel Ivan Grujic, 40
more bodies will be exhumed from another trench. Altogether, there are 14
trenches in the cemetery in which 800 Croats and 350 Serbs were buried
between 1991 and 1992.

"Almost every victim buried in the cemetery died a violent death. It took us
three years to collate information on the victims before we could even
consider the largest exhumation since WWII. The exhumations will take at
least 7 weeks to complete. The families of the victims will be continually
informed about the developments of the exhumations by the Ministry of
Croatian Defenders if the victims were defenders and by the Croatian
Committee for the Red Cross if the victims were civilians," stated Lt.
Colonel Grujic.

Representatives of the diplomatic corps and international organisations who
were present were distressed by the horrifying scene and smell of decomposed
bodies, in particular by the way in which the bodies were buried.

Not one rule of international conventions was respected in the burial of the
victims. In most cases, bodies were found touching one another. According to
the Commission, the public will soon be informed of the locations of newly
discovered mass graves.

The Croatian Minister of Defenders, Dr. Juraj Njavro, stated that this is
one of the largest mass graves in Europe and that during the aggression 800
thousand projectiles fell on Vukovar, equal to the power of one atomic bomb.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----

jjprr.davies

unread,

Aug 16, 2002, 9:43:54 PM8/16/02

> I should've said that Stipe Mesic is the president of Croatia in the
present
> tense. My mistake. Although I don't like this chimp he was indeed
Tudjman's
> successor.

So it isn't just the USA the has a primate as president!

> >> Milosevic was also the president of Serbia at that time.
> >
> >So he therefore wasn't commander in chief of the JNA which is the point I
> am
> >making.
> >
> >> But that fact doesn't really matter to the JNA since they acted
> >> independently to that of the collective SFRJ president, & invaded
> Slovenia
> >&
> >> Croatia not only to preseve Yugoslavia's territorial integrity, but
also
> >use
> >> those declarations of independence by Slovenia & Croatia as a much
nedded
> >> pretext to overthrow those legally & democratically elected governments
> >> there.
> >
> >How can an army invade it's own country? They were attacked in their own
> >barracks.
>
> You're a pathetic twerp you know that! Ok then I'll ask you another
question
> then, how can the army of a federated republic in which the federal
> structure ceases to function, has the audacity to invade the soreign de
> facto independent states of Slovenia & Croatia without the approval of the
> commander of chief?

Like the Union troops in the US civil war? Tudjman had already been
illegally procuring weapons from Hungary prior to the referendum vote
indicating he was going to use them against the Serbs of Croatia or attack
the JNA.

Barry Marjanovich

unread,

Aug 16, 2002, 10:23:37 PM8/16/02

Vecernji list, February 5, 1998, p.5. WITNESS IDENTIFIES OVCARA EXECUTIONERS
WITNESS 'P' WAS 18 YEAR OLD WHEN HE WAS BEATEN IN THE OVCARA SHED

Witness 'P' in the ICTY trial against the former mayor of Vukovar, Slavko
Dokmanovic, testified yesterday and recognised five Serbs from Vukovar who
participated in the torture and killing of war prisoners in the Ovcara pig
farm shed, close to Vukovar, in 1991.

At the time of the massacre, witness 'P' was 18 years old and was taken from
the Vukovar General Hospital along with his wounded mother to wait for an
evacuation of civilians from the occupied city. He was among the seven lucky
men that were taken out of the Ovcara shed, only after they were severely
beaten and had managed to avoid execution.

After being asked by one of the 'Chetniks' (Serbian paramilitary units)
whether he was a member of the Croatian National Guard, witness 'P' replied
negatively. Witness 'P' was moved from the Ovcara shed to a private house
that was occupied by a local Serbian extremist after Vukovar fell. He spent
more than three weeks there. Among the Serbs who visited the house in that
time, witness 'P' recognised the executioners from the Ovcara shed. Fearing
for his life he dared not ask them what happened in the Ovcara shed nor did
he state their names before the court. He only positively identified the
five before the court.

WITNESS WAITED FOR NEIGHBOURS TO HAVE MERCY

A second survivor of the Ovcara massacre is from Zagreb and is currently an
officer of the Croatian Army. In the autumn of 1991, the witness was a
member of the Croatian National Guard in Vukovar. He was saved by a soldier
of the Yugoslav Army who was his friend. He didn't know Slavko Dokmanovic at
the time he was beaten in the Ovcara shed. He could only testify that
'Chetniks', supported by the Yugoslav Army, were beating people to death in
the Ovcara shed.

According to the witness's accounts, 'Chetniks' were beating the prisoners
with torches, batons and chains. Even crutches of the wounded were used. He
saw one Albanian and Damir Samardzic being beaten to death. The witness
recounted that at the entrance to the shed he heard Chetnik's yell: "There
is Sinisa Glavasevic!" (Glavesvic was a Croatian Radio Vukovar reporter. He
was one of the victims of the Ovcara tortures). After recognising
Glavasevic, the culprits beat him.

Who survived or how much a prisoner was beaten was random and depended on
the mood of the Chetniks and local Serbs.

"I saw nine man be taken aside and then two were returned to the shed. Those
two included 16 year old Igor Katicic who was accused of being the son of an
'Ustasha' and Mejasic who was apparently a secretary of the Croatian
Democratic Union in Vukovar. These two men were never seen again," stated
the witness.

"OH MISTER INSPECTOR! YOU'RE HERE AS WELL?!"

The witness Dragutin Berghofer was among the people who had been transported
that fateful day from the Vukovar hospital to the Ovcara farm.

Berghofer, a 57 year-old upholsterer from Vukovar, said that during the
Serbian and Yugoslav People's Army (JNA) seige of Vukovar, Croatian homes
had been repeatedly shot at from the nearby JNA barracks, while houses owned
by Serbs had been spared. After witnessing this the witness lived in the
basement of his shop along with 40 women and several children.

"My daughter Vesna was taken by the JNA and Chetniks and she never came
back," said Berghofer. Berghofer's wife was killed by a grenade in the
shop's shelter on November 6, 1991. During the siege Serbs, Hungarians and
Albanians took shelter in his basement. On November 17, 1991, when it had
become obvious that the city had become occupied, all those remaining in
Vukovar left for the hospital. In the morning of November 20, 1991,
Berghofer and the rest of the men were taken to the barracks and then to
Ovcara. Berghofer testified that the men had been beaten with fists and feet
from all sides.

"There were some prisoners runing in, and the municipal head, Slavko
Dokmanovic, hit the face of a man who was squatting to avoid the blows,"
Berghofer said, adding that Dokmanovic hit another young man of some 18
years, as well as Dado Dulic. Baring a grin, Dokmanovic told Emil Cakalic,
who had been a sanitary inspector in the municipality, "Oh, mister
inspector, you're here as well?" He then beat Cakalic.

Berghofer stated that he knew Dokmanovic for over twenty years and was
positive that Dokmanovic was in the Ovcara shed.

VIDEO FOOTAGE FROM THE VUKOVAR GENERAL HOSPITAL

On video footage that was recorded in the Vukovar General Hospital during
the evacuation, a young witness from Vukovar recognised 9 wounded patients
that he later saw in the Ovcara shed. Those 9 persons have been missing
since.

The chronology of events, which started with the 'evacuation' and ended in
the Ovcara shed, was recounted by several witnesses of the defence. Their
testimonies prove that the massacre was pre-meditated. Two witnesses who
survived the massacre testified that they heard dredges not far from the
shelter were they were kept before taken to the prisoner camp in Srijemska
Mitrovica. According to their testimonies, the execution and burials were
performed during the night.

A witness who managed to escape the execution by fleeing through cornfields
is due to testify tomorrow.

***

Vecernji list, February 5, 1998, p.2. WHEN THE PROSECUTOR KNOWS HIS WORK

The trial of the accused war criminal Slavko Dokmanovic started last week
and by the end of next week the trial could come to an end. The intensity of
the cross examination of witnesses and the readiness of the prosecution are
shock to those who are used to seeing the International Hague Tribunal being
a "never-ending story".

In the process of examining evidence, the prosecution was quick to take the
events to the shed at the Ovcara pig farm which was were the execution of
the patients of the Vukovar's hospital took place.

Through various witnesses testimonies, the prosecution managed to prove that
the massacre was pre-meditated.

The chronology of events started from the entrance to the hospital by
Yugoslav Army officers and the major Sljivancanin. The prosecution
determined the events that followed: patients and wounded were taken from
the hospital while the medical staff were kept in one room where they were
negotiating with the Yugoslav Army; Yugoslav Army officers were present and
participated in the maltreatment and execution of prisoners, along with
Serbian paramilitary unit members; the Yugoslav Army Commander for Vukovar,
Major Sljivancanin, was present at all locations where the executions took
place.

From the evidence, it is clear that the massacre was premeditated and that
the indirect executor of all the atrocities was the Yugoslav Army's Major,
Veselin Sljivancanin, who probably received orders from the most senior
ranking officers of the JNA.

Slavko Dokmanovic was in the shed where the victims were beaten. The torture
lasted for hours before every single prisoner was executed. Dokmanovic was
the authority in the shed and pointed fingers at prisoners who were to be
beaten and murdered.

The prosecution is expected to call upon survivors of the Ovcara massacre to
testify in the coming days. Their testimonies will be crucial to the case,
proving that Dokmanovic participated, and ensuring he be handed maximum
penalty.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----

Vjesnik, February 4, 1998, p.2. DOKMANOVIC CASE UPDATE: YUGOSLAV ARMY (JNA)
PLAYED BLIND WHEN CHETNIKS COMMITTED THE ATROCITIES

Three protected witnesses testified last Tuesday in The Hague before the
International Crimes Tribunal on the Former Yugoslavia (ICTY) in the case
against the accused war criminal Slavko Dokmanovic. Two witnesses that
testified are former members of the Vukovar General Hospital medical staff.
Three witnesses confirmed that all non-Serbian men that were separated from
the group of wounded, civilians and soldiers were taken from the hospital on
November 20, 1991.

WITNESS 'N' SAW SERBS TAKE GLAVASEVIC AWAY

Witness 'N', who was an ambulance driver, stated that on November 20, 1991,
a group of Vukovar men gathered at the back of the hospital when 'Chetniks'
(Serbian paramilitary forces who wore insignia of the Serbian WWII
paramilitary forces who were Nazi collaborators), supported by Yugoslav Army
officers, entered Vukovar. The men at the back of the hospital hoped that
someone from the international community would save them. 'N' was among the
men who were standing in front of the hospital and not so far away was a
group of women and children. Among the group of men were also the patients
of the Vukovar hospital, either regular patients of the hospital or those
that were wounded during the conflict. Serbian paramilitary forces and
Yugoslav Army officers took witness 'N' to the bus but returned him soon
after to the hospital giving no reason for their actions. He managed to get
out of the hospital by hiding among the women that were taken on the buses.

He was then taken to the Serbian concentration camp in Srijemska Mitrovica
in Serbia from were he was exchanged after several months. Witness 'N' gave
a written statement to the ICTY that he saw Serbian paramilitaries take away
Sinisa Glavasevic and a group of people on November 18, 1991. (Sinisa
Glavasevic was a member of the International Federation of Journalists and a
reporter of Radio Vukovar. Despite war conditions, Glavasevic persevered in
spreading the truth about the fate of Vukovar. Upon the fall of Vukovar he
was executed by Serbian paramilitary and JNA forces).

"THERE WILL BE A SLAUGHTER HOUSE HERE TONIGHT"

Witness 'E' was a member of the Vukovar Civilian Protection and spent the
last months of the Vukovar siege in one of the shelters close to the Vukovar
General Hospital. He testified to the Tribunal that most Serbs left Vukovar
after the 'Borovo massacre', during which 10 Croatian guardsman were
massacred by Serbs. At the time, Serbs knew that aggression was being
prepared by the JNA together with Serbian paramilitary forces.

Witness 'E' said that the Yugoslav Army negotiated with Croats to surrender
the town: "The Yugoslav Army promised them that if they surrender the town
of Vukovar all the Croatian policeman and guardsman would be free to leave
the town!"

"When the JNA and Serbian paramilitary forces entered the town we
immediately went to the hospital shelter thinking that we would be safer in
the crowd of people," recounted witness 'E' and continued that most
non-Serbs did not fear the Yugoslav Army but feared the 'Chetniks'.

"The Yugoslav Army, lead by Major Veselin Sljivancanin (accused war criminal
indicted for crimes committed at the Ovcara pig farm in 1991), entered the
hospital on November 19, 1991 at 5 p.m. Soon after they separated the men
from the women and then people were transported to the 'Velepromet'," said
witness 'E'. He was then taken to the 'Vupik' factory warehouse where he was
guarded by 'Chetniks', mostly local Serbs from Vukovar dressed in camouflage
uniforms with JNA helmets or caps. The 'Chetniks' soon started lining up
Croats and non-Serbs against the wall and commenced beating them. "I was not
in the group of the ones that were beaten only because I was lucky to be
taken to a separate room in the same warehouse by one of the Serbs, Boro
Zuanovic, who previously knew me. He even told me that " there is going to
be a slaughter house here tonight." From the little room that I was locked
in I heard screams coming from the backyard. Later a guard came for me and
he took all my possessions - money, jewellery, coat - saying that I no
longer had a need for them. I was taken with a small group of people into
the room where a drunk soldier threatened to shoot us. For some reason we
were not taken with the others, but were immediately transferred to the
Serbian concentration camp in Srijemska Mitrovica. In 1992 I was exchanged
on the checkpoint of Nemetin," retold witness 'E'.

The son of witness 'E' who was a Croatian defender disappeared on November
20, 1991. Recently 'E' identified ) as his son's belongings a silver chain
and a St. Anthony's medallion (recovered from the mass grave site in
Ovcara). He also sated that among the paramilitary forces were Serbs from
Vukovar who were leading the JNA and 'Chetniks' through the town pointing
out where the Croats were hiding.

MEN WERE TAKEN AWAY IN 5 BUSES

Witness 'O' was the head of the hospital's supply department.

"On November 20, 1991, I was taken on one of the five buses parked in front
of the hospital. The bus took off and soon we were in front of the Yugoslav
Army barracks which was packed with paramilitary troops lead by Arkan and
Seselj (who commanded his own group of paramilitary forces that are
notorious for the murder of hundreds of non-Serbs, and was a candidate for
the 1997 Serbian presidential). Among the troops were local Serbs who were
dressed in camouflage uniforms with 'Chetnik' insignia.

"One of the commanders approached the group of people that included Sinisa
Glavasevic, Josip Esterajher (another Radio Vukovar reporter) and doctors
Farkas and Emedi. He asked them to point out the rest of the medical team.
They didn't answer his question. From every bus the 'Chetniks' selected five
people who were then forced to walk between lines of Serbian soldiers who
viciously beat them. I was one among the selected. The groups were selected
according to a list that was drafted by the female staff of the hospital.
The females were threatened to make a list of medical staff or their
husbands and fathers or sons would be executed before them," stated witness
'O'.

The tribunal's chairperson, Mr. Anthony Cassese, asked witness 'O' whether
the Yugoslav Army controlled the paramilitary forces. "They were not issuing
the orders but they just stood back and watched making no complaints when
the 'Chetniks' and some of their soldiers beat and killed non-Serbs,"
replied 'O'.

"We were then taken back to the hospital. There were numerous vehicles in
the backyard of the hospital including the vehicles of the EC Monitoring
Mission. Two men from our group that was paraded and beaten between the
lines of Serbs were separated from us. Major Sljivancanin came then and said
before us that the two men would be tried until proven guilty.
Unfortunately, the remains of one of those two were was found in the Ovcara
mass grave."

Witness 'O' spent several months in the concentration prisoner camp in
Srijemska Mitrovica and was later exchanged. He was asked to identify all
those that he recognised in video footage that was filmed in Vukovar on
November 20, 1991 which was recorded by Serbian TV crew from buses.

http://www.vido.ldh.org/images/serbia.jpg
http://www.vido.ldh.org/images/serbia.jpg
http://www.vido.ldh.org/images/serbia.jpg

kirill

unread,

Aug 16, 2002, 11:20:59 PM8/16/02

"Profesor.Baltazar" the Kurvat wrote:
>
> "jjprr.davies" wrote:
>
> > How can an army invade it's own country?
>
> The same way the British invaded what was to become the US of A, you twit.

Krajina, East and West Slavonia aren't Croatia you Nazi turd.

> Once
> independence was declared, it was no longer "it's country".

Once ethnic cleansing of 450,000 Serbs was complete Kurvatia became
a cuntry. Your Nazi dream of WWII was finally complete. Enjoy
it while it lasts.

>
> > They were attacked in their own barracks.
>
> Yeah, the poor fuckers were just defending themselves by leveling the city
> beyond recognition,

When Kurvats try to steal Serb lands and drive them from their homes
they can't expect to be greeted with a smile.

> massacring the wounded at Ovcara and expelling the non-Serb
> population.

Looky here the Kurvat Nazi ethnic cleanser appeals to indignation. You
slimebags started it so don't bitch about the consequences.

Barry Marjanovich

unread,

Aug 16, 2002, 11:41:47 PM8/16/02

http://www.vido.ldh.org/images/serbia.jpg

ssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss
sss
CCCC Vukovar Hospital Massacre CCCC
SSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS

What Kind Of Monsters Would Torture and Kill Hospital Patients?

SSSSSSERVSSSSSERVSSSSERVSSSERVSSSERVSSSSERVSERVSSSSERVS
The Calgary Herald, November 10, 1995:

ssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss
sss

HAGUE, Netherlands- In the Hague, the Yugoslav warcrimes tribunal
directly linked Serbia to Balkan war crimes for the first time on
Thursday,
indicting three Serbian army officers in a hospital massacre in Croatia.

The likelyhood of bringing the officers to trial is slim. The tribunal
does not have the power to try in absentia and the Serbian constitution
prohibits authorities from turning Serbs over to trial outside the country.

The indictment charged that Serbian soldiers under the command of the
three Serbian army officers - Mile Mrksic, then a Yugoslav colonel who was
in command of the Belgrade-based Guards Brigade; Miroslav Radic,
a captain in command of a special infantry unit in the guards; and Veselin
Sljivancanin, a major serving as a security officer in the guards
- rounded up 261 non-Serb men from the Vukovar Hospital in the Croatian
city of Vukovar, in November 1991. The patients were dragged out of the
hospital, beaten and then shot to death.

ssssssservsssssssservsssservsssservsservssssservsssservssservsservssservssss
s

http://www.vido.ldh.org/images/serbia.jpg
http://www.vido.ldh.org/images/serbia.jpg

Marko Njavro

unread,

Aug 17, 2002, 12:50:56 AM8/17/02

"kirill" <kir...@university.ca> wrote in message
news:3D5DC11B...@university.ca...
>

Squeal, just squeal like a dying pig, you Russian fuck.

Vukovar - Republic of Croatia
Knin - Republic of Croatia

Need I say more?

Profesor.Baltazar

unread,

Aug 17, 2002, 2:32:25 AM8/17/02

kirill wrote:

> > > How can an army invade it's own country?
> >
> > The same way the British invaded what was to become the US of A, you twit.
>
> Krajina, East and West Slavonia aren't Croatia you Nazi turd.

I don't know what Krajina is, but I can assure you that you're mistaken in your
geographical and geo-political positioning of the latter two. You might want to
replace that atlas of yours since it appears that it is badly outdated.

> > Once independence was declared, it was no longer "it's country".
>
> Once ethnic cleansing of 450,000 Serbs was complete Kurvatia became
> a cuntry. Your Nazi dream of WWII was finally complete. Enjoy
> it while it lasts.

Take a Prozac and breath deeply. It will prolong your life so you can continue
crying over you Krajina, whatever the hell that is.

> > > They were attacked in their own barracks.
> >
> > Yeah, the poor fuckers were just defending themselves by leveling the city
> > beyond recognition,
>
> When Kurvats try to steal Serb lands and drive them from their homes
> they can't expect to be greeted with a smile.

Translation: hell yeah, the Serbian army committed numerous atrocities and I'm
proud of it.

> > massacring the wounded at Ovcara and expelling the non-Serb
> > population.
>
> Looky here the Kurvat Nazi ethnic cleanser appeals to indignation. You
> slimebags started it so don't bitch about the consequences.

Translation: hell yeah, the Serbian army committed numerous atrocities and I'm
proud of it.

How's the Kosovo campaign going? Any day now, huh? Wow, I got a brainstorm:
maybe if they massacred more civilians, perhaps that would help their war
effort? What's that you say? The JNA lost that war as well? Damn, I gotta start
watching the news...

adrian

unread,

Aug 17, 2002, 2:44:34 AM8/17/02

kirill <kir...@university.ca> wrote in message
news:3D5DC11B...@university.ca...
>

> Once ethnic cleansing of 450,000 Serbs was complete Kurvatia became
> a cuntry. Your Nazi dream of WWII was finally complete. Enjoy
> it while it lasts.

let me answer just this point (since the rest of your post is complete
bullshit):

adrian

unread,

Aug 17, 2002, 2:49:41 AM8/17/02

Sasha <a_s...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:24bf1311.02081...@posting.google.com...

> mha...@softhome.net (Mir Harven) wrote in message
news:<3d590cac...@news.tel.hr>...
> > http://www.washtimes.com/world/20020811-24444994.htm
> >
> > quoted without permission
> >
>
<rubbish snipped out>

Sremski Karlovci (canter of Serbs
> in Slavonia)

Sremski Karlovci (as the name says) are in Srijem, and that is in Vojvodina.
not Slavonija.

>
> BTW, who won the last elections in Vukovar before the war? Was that
> SDS?

no, it was SKH-SDP
normal people on both "sides" voted for them.

Mario Orlovcic

unread,

Aug 17, 2002, 5:36:33 AM8/17/02

jjprr.davies wrote in message
<5Vh79.7163$s66.2...@newsfep1-win.server.ntli.net>...

>> I should've said that Stipe Mesic is the president of Croatia in the
>present
>> tense. My mistake. Although I don't like this chimp he was indeed
>Tudjman's
>> successor.
>
>So it isn't just the USA the has a primate as president!

Nah, that was just an insult towards president Mesic!

While on the other hand It isn't illegal for the JNA to supply the Serb
rebels with arms and ammunition from the disarmed Croat territorial defence
forces?

Perhaps you're not aware of Matin Spegelj's falling out with Tudjman over
this shipping of "illegal" arms. And how the Yugoslav military intelligence
"KOS" mole, & Martin Spegejl's meeting was video tapped over this affair,
was broadcast on Serbian television

>indicating he was going to use them against the Serbs of Croatia or attack
>the JNA.

No! Actually the rebel Serbs had already at that stage were they were
confronting the Croatian authorities even before the declaration of
independence. Like for example the incident at Borovo Selo in which a dozen
or so Croatian policeman were killed in a gun battle with Serbian insurgent
"chetniks".

Barry Marjanovich

unread,

Aug 17, 2002, 9:12:45 AM8/17/02

http://www.vido.ldh.org/images/serbia.jpg
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FOREIGN PRESS BUREAU ZAGREB
Daily Bulletin 2 May 1997

* CROATIA

FIRST WAR CASUALTIES COMMEMORATED TODAY
Six years ago today one of the first victims in Croatia's bloody war of
independence fell. The scene of the tragedy was Borovo Naselje, just north
of Vukovar, where 12 Croatian policemen were brutally massacred in an ambush
by Serbian extremists. A commemoration service is being held today in the
nearby city of Vinkovci.

POLICE PAY THEIR RESPECTS TO FALLEN COLLEAGUES
Representatives of the Vukovar and Srijem County police force paid a visit
to the local cemetery on Thursday in memory of the 12 Croatian policemen who
had died in Borovo Selo on May 2, 1991. Commemorations were also held at
cemeteries in Vinkovci, Nustar, Nijemci, Otoka, Jarmina, Ivankovo and
Zupanja.

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Vecernji list, 2 May, 1997 Veselcic/Signal iz Borova sela

Signal from the village of "Borovo Selo" - Six years ago today Serbian
extremists massacred 12 Croatian policemen in the Borovo Selo village close
to Vinkovci. This "Easter Blood Bath" as well as the similar police
operation in the Plitvice National Park, in which the Croatian policemen
Josip Jovic was killed, is considered as the commencement of the open
aggression and destruction of the Republic of Croatia. At that time, one
fact was certain: the war had begun in Borovo Selo.

Serbian extremists in Eastern Slavonia, aided by Serbian President, Slobodan
Milosevic, and the highest ranking officers of the former Yugoslav People's
Army (JNA) had everything planned. They just needed an excuse to start
realizing their horrible plan - the excuse they got in Borovo Selo. Borovo
Selo was one of the main strongholds of Serbian paramilitaries. It was the
place where a large massacre was soon to be committed.

Croatian policemen were ambushed when they attempted to liberate two of
their colleagues that were captured by the Serbs whilst on their routine
patrol in that area. The Serbs were informed of the exact schedule of the
Croatian police patrol. These moments of finding out about the death of 12
Croatian policemen were amongst the most horrifying during the aggression
upon Croatia.

Serbs killed the wounded policemen in the most horrible of ways. Footage of
that tragedy was sent throughout the world. The international community was
horrified by the scenes of the massacre. People spontaneously took to the
streets and converged upon the police headquarters to ask for weapons to
defend their homes. Croatia was in shock. In 1991 the war escalated in
almost all of the regions of the Republic of Croatia. The aggression in
Eastern Slavonia was stopped in Vukovar. That was the beginning of the end
of the Yugoslav Army and Serbia's aggression.

Today a part of Croatian Danube region is under the UNTAES administration
but only until July 15, 1997. Then the UNTAES mandate expires and the
Croatian Danube will be reintegrated into the Croatian legal and judicial
system. The recently held elections ascertained the victory of the Croatian
parties and thus there is no time to stall the resolution of reintegration.

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Glas Slavonije, Petak, 2. Svibnja 1997. Strana 12, autor: Goran Corkalo

Zivotu otrgnuta mladost

Vinkovci - Danas, 2.svibnja 1997. Godine hrvatska i posebno istocnoslavonska
javnost ponovno ce se sjetiti tragicnih zbivanja od prije sest godina kada
je skupina hrvatskih redarstvenika docekana u zasjedi u Borovu Selu, mjestu
na desnoj obali Dunava nedaleko od Vukovara, mjestu gdje su 12 iz skupine -
Stipan Bosnjak, Mladen Catic, Antun Grbavac, Marinko Petrusic, Luka
Crnkovic, Janko Covic, Zeljko Hrala, Mladen Saric, Josip Culej, Zoran
Grasic, Zdenko Perica i Ivan Vucic - izgubila zivot.

Njihova pogibija kao prva kolektivna zrtva koju je hrvatski narod primio na
oltar domovine u borbi za osamostaljenje bila je i ostat ce jedan od
najznacajnijih dogadjaja upisanih u noviju hrvatsku povijest, dogadjaj koji
je kao nijedan do tada jasno pokazao da Hrvatska svoju suverenost i
samostalnost nece moci ostvariti bez oruzanog otpora srbijanskom agresoru i
tadasnjoj JNA. Tragedija u Borovu Selu, politicki gledano, samo je
kulminacija zbivanja u zapocetih jos u kolovozu 1990. God. Barikadama u
Kninu i kninskoj krajini s kojima se pokusalo cestovno i zeljeznicki
razdvojiti hrvatski sjever i jug, samo je krvavi pocetak plana ostvarivanja
Memoranduma SANU o Srbiji do crte Virovitica-Karlovac-Karlobag, zapocet
nesto ranije na "krvavi Uskrs", kada je na Plitvicama ubijen hrvatski
redarstvenik Josip Jovic. Ljudski gledano, toga je dana u Borovu Selu
zbrisan dio hrvatske, istocnoslavonske mladosti, decki koji su se kretali
Vinkovcima, koje su Vinkovcani znali, koji su zivjeli u Vinkovcima i okolnim
mjestima, decki koji su po ulicama grada bili pozdravljani i uzvracali
pozdrav, toga dana u Borovu Selu iz mnogih istocnoslavonskih obitelji
otrgnuto je dvanaestero sinova, brace, bratica, prijatelja i znanaca. Od tog
tragicnog, borovoselskog dana ni Vinkovci, ni istocna Slavonija, ni Hrvatska
vise nisu bili isti.

Rat je snazno zakucao na vrata Lijepe nase. Danas, sest godina poslije,
ponovno ce se hrvatska javnost , u potpuno izmjenjenim politickim
okolnostima, prisjetiti pogibije 12-orice redarstvenika. No, zahvaljujuci
njima i tisucama ostalih koji su svoj zivot darovali za suverenu i
samostalnu Republiku Hrvatsku, Hrvatska danas posljednjim politickim
potezima reintegrira hrvatsko Podunavlje, pa i Borovo Selo u svoj
ustavnopravni sustav.

U povodu seste obljetnice pogibije dvanaestorice hrvatskih redarstvenika u
petak, 2.svibnja, odrzat ce se u Gradskom kazalistu u Vinkovcima sredisnja
komemoracija ciji je pocetak predvidjen za 10:30 sati. U 11:30 sati polozit
ce se vijenci kod glavnog kriza na Gradskom groblju, a u 12 sati u crkvi sv.
Euzebija i Polina sluzit ce se misa zadusnica.

HIC - Osijek

"Bljesak" - pocetak kraja srpske okupacije Hrvatske

Prije dvije godine, 1. Svibnja 1995. U 5.30 sati zapocela je ogranicena
vojno-redarstvena akcija "Bljesak" kojoj je bio cilj osigurati slobodan
promet i sprijecavanje teroristickih napada na dijelu autoceste Zagreb -
Lipovac izmedju Novske i Nove Gradiske. Akcijom "Bljesak" hrvatske
redarstvene i vijne snage pokazale su da Hrvatska ima jaku oruzanu silu koja
moze sama osloboditi hrvatske teritorije na kojima je jos 1991.
Uspostavljena paravlast srpskih pobunjenika.

Kostunica: "I won't hand over Milosevic"
"I am the president"
http://www.dssrewards.net/english/warcrimes/milos.html
ssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss
Excerpts:
The Guardian
Special report: Serbia
Martin Woollacott
Friday September 29, 2000

Vojislav Kostunica does not differ much from
Milosevic on Serbia's right to Kosovo; on
the status of the Bosnian Serb entity,
Republika Srpska; or on the desirability of
Montenegro staying with Serbia.

In choosing Kostunica in such large
numbers, it may be said that the Serbians
have voted for a clean Milosevic. They
voted for a man who has never said that
Serbia's objectives in the wars of the last
10 years were wrong; who denies the
authority of the International War Crimes
Tribunal in The Hague; who considers
Nato intervention an outrage: and who
insists that Serbia will not be a vassal
state of the west.

http://www.vido.ldh.org/images/serbia.jpg

Barry Marjanovich

unread,

Aug 17, 2002, 12:49:17 PM8/17/02

http://www.vido.ldh.org/images/serbia.jpg

Chronology of events in Croatia's Eastern Slavonia

ZAGREB, Croatia, Jan 14, 1998 (Reuters) - After two years of United Nations
rule, Croatia on Thursday retakes control of the last piece of its territory
seized by Serbs in 1991. Following are some events that mark the history of
the 6-1/2 year conflict.

1991

MAY 2 - Twelve Croatian policemen killed by Serb villagers in Borovo Selo,
near Vukovar in Eastern Slavonia, when they attempt to rescue two colleagues
taken hostage day before. Event seen by many as marking irreversible slide
to war.
JUNE 25 - Croatia and Slovenia declare independence from Yugoslavia.
JUNE 26 - Serb rebels, opposing Croatian secession, attack Croat-manned
police station in Glina, a small town in a mainly Serb area of central
Croatia historically known as ``Krajina.'' The war begins.
AUG 26 - Yugoslav People's Army (JNA) joins Serb irregulars in their attack
on Vukovar, the key town in the Danubian region bordering Serbia, cutting it
off from the rest of Croatia and exposing it to artillery and air
bombardment.
NOV 18 - Vukovar falls to Serb troops after three months of siege that
reduced the baroque town to rubble.
NOV 19 - The JNA evacuates some 200 patients from Vukovar hospital. Their
bodies are later found in a mass grave.

1992

JAN 2 - Croatia and Yugoslavia agree truce in Sarajevo taking effect Jan 3.
Plan includes withdrawal of the JNA from Croatia and simultaneous deployment
of U.N. peacekeepers in three Serb-held areas, one of them being Eastern
Slavonia.
JAN 15 - European Union, led by Germany, recognises Croatia.
MARCH-APRIL - Some 14,000 soldiers of the United Nations Protection Force
(UNPROFOR) deploy in three areas occupied by Serb rebels.

1994
MARCH 30 - Croatia and rebel Serbs sign truce in Russian embassy in Zagreb,
agree to separate forces and withdraw them from two-km buffer zone along the
1,000-km front line.

1995
JAN 12 - Croatia threatens to oust U.N. peacekeepers when their mandate
expires on March 31.
MARCH 12 - President Franjo Tudjman reaches compromise deal with U.S. Vice
President Al Gore on radically reduced UN mandate in Croatia.
APRIL - Under new mandate dubbed UNCRO (United Nations Confidence
Restoration Operation), the number of U.N. troops is cut by half and they
are given the task of controlling Croatia's international borders.
MAY 2 - Croatian army attacks Western Slavonia and captures it after two
days of fighting.
AUG 5-8 - In another lightning offensive, army takes control of the largest
Serb-held area of Krajina, forcing tens of thousands of Serbs to flee their
homes. Many later find shelter in Eastern Slavonia.
NOV 9 - UN criminal tribunal for former Yugoslavia, based in The Hague,
indicts three senior Serb officers of the former JNA for war crimes. They
are charged with involvement in killing of 260 Vukovar men in 1991.
NOV 12 - Croatia, Yugoslavia and rebel Serbs sign peace agreement in Dayton,
Ohio, ending four-and-half year conflict. Eastern Slavonia is to gradually
become part of Croatia, under international supervision.
DEC 22 - U.S. General Jacques Klein appointed head of the UN Transitional
Administration in Eastern Slavonia (UNTAES).

1996
JAN 15 - UN Security Council approves sending 5,000 U.N. peacekeepers to
oversee transfer of Eastern Slavonia to Croatian rule during one-year U.N.
mandate.
JUNE 21 - UN completes demilitarisation of region.
AUG 23 - Croatia and Yugoslavia sign normalisation treaty and recognise each
other.
SEPT 9 - Croatia and Yugoslavia establish full diplomatic
relations.
SEPT 20 - Croatia passes amnesty law for Serbs who took part in armed
rebellion, save for war criminals.
OCT 4 - UN investigators find remains of 200 former Vukovar hospital
patients, executed by besieging Serb forces in 1991.
DEC 3 - Tudjman pays unexpected visit to Vukovar for first time since
Croatia gained independence.

1997
MARCH 18 - Croatia gives final war criminal list to Serbs.
APRIL 13-14 - Croatia holds municipal elections. Eastern Slavonia Serbs vote
for first time in six years, winning 11 of 29 municipalities.
MAY 19 - Croatia introduces its currency in the region.
JUNE 8 - Tudjman rides train of peace to Vukovar, gives a reconciliatory
speech but train is stoned by Serb mob.
JUNE 15 - Tudjman wins presidential election and secures another five years
in office.
JUNE 26 - OSCE sets up a permanent mission for Croatia with a special task
to oversee reintegration of Eastern Slavonia. Its mandate runs to December
31, 1998.
JULY 15 - Some 2,000 UN troops leave Eastern Slavonia after UN Security
Council approves a plan for their withdrawal, providing for all military
personnel to leave by October 15.
AUG 18 - U.S. diplomat William Walker takes over command of UNTAES from
Klein.
OCT 20 - Some 1,700 UN troops pull out. Only 720 soldiers are left to guard
UN facilities.
NOV 21 - Croatia proposes 180-strong monitoring mission of UN civilian
police to remain in the region till October 1998.
DEC 6 - UN Secretary General Kofi Annan recommends that UN mandate be
completed by January 15, 1998.
DEC 15 - Walker hands over command of the Transitional Police Force to
Croatia.
DEC 19 - UN Security Council passes a resolution ending the
UNTAES mandate on January 15, 1998.

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http://www.hbk.hr/crkve/eindex.html
http://www.dssrewards.net/english/warcrimes/warcriminals.html
http://www.vido.ldh.org/images/serbia.jpg

Barry Marjanovich

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Aug 17, 2002, 3:02:21 PM8/17/02

http://www.vido.ldh.org/images/serbia.jpg

War against Croatia
1991-1995

Prof. Albert Einstein, the outstanding scientist and Nobel Prize Winer said
in his solemn protest (1931) AGAINST the Serb terror in Croatia, on behalf
of the League for Defense of Human Rights : "All countries are in duty bound
to shield the small, pacific and civilized CROAT Nation"

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"Greater Serbianism has cost the lives of some 600,000 Croatians, 400,000
Muslims, 100,000 Albanians, and countless others this century, not to
mention non-conformist Serbs, and even people not from the Balkans. It has
ethnically cleansed some five million inhabitants since 1900, wounded,
maimed and imprisoned over two million, and caused hundreds of billions of
dollars worth of material damage."

Barry Marjanovich

unread,

Aug 17, 2002, 8:42:37 PM8/17/02

THE PROSECUTOR OF THE TRIBUNAL AGAINST
MILE MRKSIC, MIROSLAV RADIC, AND VESELIN SLJIVANCANIN

INDICTMENT

Richard J. Goldstone, Prosecutor of the International Criminal Tribunal for
the Former Yugoslavia, pursuant to his authority under Article 18 of the
Statute of the International Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia
(Tribunal Statute), alleges:

1. This indictment charges persons responsible for the mass killing at
Ovcara, near Vukovar, Croatia, of approximately 260 captive non-Serb men who
had been removed from Vukovar Hospital on 20 November 1991.

2. The city of Vukovar is located in the Eastern Slavonian region of Croatia
on the banks of the Danube River, which there marks the border between the
Republic of Serbia and the Republic of Croatia. In the 1991 census, the
population of the Vukovar municipality, which included the city and
surrounding villages, was 84,189 of which 36,910 were Croat (43.8 %), 31,445
Serb (37.4 %), 1,375 Hungarian (1.6 %), 6,124 Yugoslav (7.3 %), and 8,335
others (9.9 %).

3. After a 19 May 1991 referendum in the Republic of Croatia regarding
Croatia's future in the Yugoslav federation, Croatia declared its
independence on 25 June 1991. At the urging of the European Community, the
effective date of independence was postponed until 8 October 1991.

4. Soon after the 25 June 1991 declaration of independence, Serbs living in
Croatia intensified the armed insurrection they had begun several months
earlier, which the Croatian authorities attempted to suppress. The federal
Yugoslav Peoples Army (JNA) intervened in support of the Serb insurgents.

5. After attacking some of the surrounding villages that were inhabited
mostly by non-Serbs, by late August 1991, the JNA had surrounded the city of
Vukovar and was laying siege to it. In conjunction with the siege, the JNA
engaged in a sustained artillery assault on the city, killing hundreds of
persons and destroying most of the buildings in the city. The JNA and Serb
paramilitary forces also launched infantry and armoured attacks that
ultimately led to the fall of Vukovar on 18 November 1991. The JNA and Serb
paramilitary forces then occupied what remained of the city.

6. The JNA unit with primary responsibility for the attack and subsequent
occupation of Vukovar was the Belgrade-based Guards Brigade, commanded by
Colonel Mile MRKSIC. Subordinate to Colonel MRKSIC was Major Veselin
SLJIVANCANIN, who had direct operational command of JNA forces in the
immediate area of the city. Major SLJIVANCANIN was the security officer for
the Guards Brigade, and he also commanded a military police battalion which
was part of the brigade. Another part of the brigade that took an active
role in the siege and occupation of the city was the special infantry unit
commanded by Captain Miroslav RADIC, a close associate of Major
SLJIVANCANIN.

7. In the last days of the siege, several hundred people sought refuge at
Vukovar Hospital, which was near the city centre, in the belief that it
would be evacuated in the presence of neutral international observers. This
evacuation had been agreed upon in Zagreb in negotiations between the JNA
and the Croatian government on 18 November 1991. In addition to the sick and
wounded, civilians, families of hospital staff, and soldiers who had been
defending the city, some posing as patients or hospital staff, gathered on
the hospital grounds.

8. On the afternoon of 19 November 1991, JNA units arrived at Vukovar
Hospital and took control of it. Those inside offered no resistance. Early
the following morning, Major SLJIVANCANIN ordered the nurses and doctors to
assemble for a meeting. While the medical staff was attending this meeting,
JNA and Serb paramilitary soldiers hurriedly removed about 400 men from the
hospital. Among those removed in this way were wounded patients, hospital
staff, soldiers who had been defending the city, Croatian political
activists, and other civilians. By the time the medical staff meeting with
Major SLJIVANCANIN concluded, the soldiers had removed almost all of the men
who were at the hospital.

9. The soldiers loaded about 300 of these men onto buses and held them on
the buses under JNA guard. Later that morning, the buses left the hospital
compound and proceeded through the centre of Vukovar to the JNA barracks on
the south side of the city. The men were kept inside the buses at the
barracks for about two hours. During that time, on orders from Major
SLJIVANCANIN, about 15 of the men were removed from the buses, apparently
because the men were part of the hospital staff or were related to staff
members.

10. The remaining men were then driven to a building at the Ovcara farm,
about four kilometres southeast of Vukovar. There JNA and Serb paramilitary
soldiers took the men from the buses and forced them to run between two
lines of soldiers, who beat the men as they passed. Inside the farm
building, the soldiers continued to beat the men for several hours. At least
two men died from the beatings. About seven of the men were released after
Serbs who were present intervened on their behalf. These men were driven
back to Vukovar.

11. The remaining men were held in the building at Ovcara. The Serb
authorities listed identifying information about each man and then divided
the men into groups of ten to twenty. The soldiers loaded each group in turn
into a truck which left the farm building with the group and then returned
empty a short while later.

12. The truck travelled south from the Ovcara farm building on the road
leading to Grabovo. Approximately one and one-tenth kilometres southeast of
the building, the truck turned left and then travelled northeast on a dirt
field road which ran between a cultivated field on the left and a wooded
ravine on the right. At the head of the ravine, approximately 900 metres
from the Ovcara-Grabovo road, the soldiers removed the men from the truck.

13. At this spot, JNA and Serb paramilitary troops under the command and
supervision of Colonel Mile MRKSIC, Captain Miroslav RADIC and Major Veselin
SLJIVANCANIN were assembled on the north side of the site. During the
evening hours of 20 November 1991, these soldiers, firing in a southerly
direction, shot and killed about 260 men. After the killings, the bodies of
the victims were buried by a bulldozer in a mass grave at the same location.

14. Of the 300 men taken from Vukovar Hospital on the morning of 20 November
1991, 261 remain missing. All of these men were alive after the end of
hostilities in Vukovar, and all of these men were taken under JNA guard
first to the JNA barracks and then to the Ovcara farm. They have not been
seen alive since that time. The names of these men, with their fathers'
names in parenthesis, and their dates of birth are as follows:

Adzaga, Jozo (Ilija) 21.05.49

Andrijanic, Vinko (Marko) 09.02.53

Anic-Antic, Jadranko (Ante) 19.04.59

Arnold, Kresimir (Alojz) 18.04.58

Asadanin, Ilija (Jovan) 01.01.50

Babic, Drazen (Josip) 01.10.66

Bainrauch, Ivan (Stjepan) 21.06.56

Bajnrauh, Tomislav (Franjo) 13.12.38

Baketa, Goran (Stojan) 28.06.60

Balas, Stjepan (Andrija) 01.05.56

Balaz, Vesna (Jozo) 06.09.55

Balog, Dragutin (Josip) 19.06.74

Balog, Josip (Dragutin) 25.11.28

Balog, Zvonko (Ivan) 10.01.58

Balvanac, Duro (Andrija) 17.07.52

Banozic, Boris (Drago) 02.02.67

Baranjaji, Pero (Ratko) 19.06.68

Barbaric, Branko (Jozo) 01.11.67

Barbir, Lovro (Ivan) 01.11.35

Baricevic, Zeljko (Stjepan) 17.08.65

Barisic, Franjo (Andrija) 28.05.46

Barta, Andelko (Ivan) 31.01.67

Batarelo, Josip (Danijel) 12.03.47

Batarelo, Zeljko (Ante) 25.10.55

Baumgertner, Tomislav (Tomislav) 27.11.73

Begcevic, Marko (Ivo) 01.04.68

Begov, Zeljko (Mato) 30.09.58

Bingula, Stjepan (Stjepan) 15.10.58

Bjelanovic, Ringo (Nikola) 24.11.70

Blaskovic, Miroslav (Mijo) 06.04.59

Blazevic, Zlatko (Zdenko) 24.02.64

Bodrozic, Ante (Marijan) 07.06.53

Bosak, Marko (Juraj) 02.07.67

Bosanac, Dragutin (Lavoslav) 21.08.19

Bosanac, Tomislav (Antun) 05.03.41

Bosnjakov, Josip (Ilija) 05.09.60

Bozak, Ivan (Franjo) 28.08.58

Bracic, Zvonimir (Ivan) 04.07.70

Bradaric, Josip (Sime) 02.03.49

Brajdic, Josip (Pavo) 16.03.50

Buovac, Ivan (Ilija) 03.09.66

Buzic, Zvonko (Stjepan) 27.08.55

Crnjac, Ivan (Slavko) 18.05.66

Caleta, Zvonimir (Nikola) 24.02.53

Colak, Ivica (Blago) 26.09.65

Cupic, Mladen (Marko) 19.05.67

Dalic, Tihomir (Zvonko) 02.11.66

Dolisni, Ivica (Petar) 27.11.60

Dosen, Ivan (Ivan) 04.01.58

Dosen, Martin (Ivan) 19.02.52

Dosen, Tadija (Ivan) 09.10.50

Dragun, Josip (Srecko) 09.09.62

Duvnjak, Stanko (Vladimir) 23.05.59

Dudar, Sasa (Duro) 05.03.68

Dukic, Perica 23.09.53

Dukic, Vladimir (Ivan) 21.02.48

Ebner, Vinko-Duro (Vinko) 07.04.61

Edelinski, Goran (Vladimir) 29.07.75

Firi, Ivan (Duro Kulik) 01.06.15

Fitus, Karlo (Istvan) 28.09.64

Friscic, Dragutin (Matija) 02.11.58

Furundzija, Petar (Danko) 30.11.49

Gajda, Robert (Mihajlo) 27.12.66

Galic, Milenko (Mate) 10.12.65

Galic, Vedran (Ivan) 29.05.73

Garvanovic, Borislav (Ivan) 23.11.54

Gaspar, Zorislav (Dragutin) 14.03.71

Gavric, Dragan (Pavo) 31.10.56

Glavasevic, Sinisa (Petar) 04.11.60

Gojani, Jozo (Ivo) 01.01.66

Golac, Krunoslav (Veljko) 06.07.59

Graf, Branislav (Vladimir) 07.09.55

Granic, Dragan (Mile) 01.01.60

Grejza, Milan (Mato) 27.06.59

Gruber, Zoran (Ilija) 05.09.69

Gudelj, Drago (Ivan) 09.09.40

Gudelj, Zdravko (Marijan) 31.01.59

Hegedus, Tomislav (Franjo) 02.11.53

Hegedusic, Mario (Dragutin) 29.06.72

Herceg, Zeljko (Slavko) 20.01.62

Herman, Ivan (Dragutin) 14.05.69

Herman, Stjepan (Antun) 10.03.55

Hincak, Zvonimir (Duro) 08.09.55

Hlevnjak, Nedeljko (Andelko) 08.01.64

Holjevac, Nikica (Ivan) 10.04.55

Horvat, Ivica (Josip) 27.11.58

Horvat, Viktor (Simun) 27.08.49

Husnjak, Nedjeljko (Juraj) 30.06.69

Iles, Zvonko (Ivan) 12.12.41

Imbrisic, Ivica (Pavle) 13.02.58

Ivan, Zlatko (Eugen) 25.12.55

Ivezic, Aleksander (Ivan) 05.12.50

Jajalo, Marko (Ivan) 28.10.57

Jakubovski, Martin (Ivan) 01.04.71

Jalsovec, Ljubomir (Antun) 02.11.57

Jambor, Tomo (Dragutin) 03.03.66

Janic, Mihael (Antun) 09.10.39

Janjic, Borislav (Ivan) 08.09.56

Jantol, Boris (Duro) 21.09.59

Jarabek, Zlatko (Kamilo) 21.04.56

Jezidzic, Ivica (Stipo) 05.11.57

Jovan, Zvonimir (Vlatko) 07.04.67

Jovanovic, Branko (Todor) 04.02.55

Jovanovic, Oliver (Duro) 08.12.72

Jularic, Goran (Andrija) 15.02.71

Jurela, Damir (Tomislav) 25.04.69

Jurela, Zeljko (Bozo) 30.06.56

Jurendic, Drago (Juro) 23.04.66

Jurisic, Marko (Franjo) 17.08.46

Jurisic, Pavao (Pavo) 28.08.66

Jurisic, Zeljko (Rude) 20.12.63

Kacic, Igor (Petar) 23.08.75

Kapustic, Josip (Josip) 08.12.65

Kelava, Kresimir (Antun) 17.01.53

Kiralj, Damir (Josip) 10.03.64

Kiralj, Damir (Julije) 17.07.59

Kitic, Goran (Mitar) 23.02.66

Knezic, Duro (Franjo) 02.04.37

Kolak, Tomislav (Dobroslav) 22.07.62

Kolak, Vladimir (Dobroslav) 20.01.66

Kologranic, Dusko (Josip) 23.10.50

Komorski, Ivan (Pero) 23.06.52

Kostenac, Bono (Andrija) 15.02.42

Kostovic, Borislav (Ante) 24.12.62

Kosir, Bozidar (Mirko) 28.09.57

Kovac, Ivan (Mate) 18.06.53

Kovac, Mladen (Branko) 20.08.58

Kovacevic, Zoran (Zlata) 16.04.62

Kovacic, Damir (Tomo) 14.07.70

Kozul, Josip (Frano) 08.03.68

Krajinovic, Ivan (Luka) 14.10.66

Krajinovic, Zlatko (Ante) 04.12.69

Krasic, Ivan (Petar) 18.06.64

Krezo, Ivica (Hrvoje) 10.09.63

Kristicevic, Kazimir (Branko) 13.06.59

Krizan, Drago (Jozo) 05.11.57

Krunes, Branimir (Mate) 28.02.66

Lendel, Tomislav (Franjo) 06.08.57

Lendel, Zlatko (Franjo) 18.00.49

Lerotic, Zvonimir (Filip) 13.09.60

Lesic, Tomislav (Branko) 10.05.50

Let, Mihajlo (Duro) 25.04.56

Lili, Dragutin (Dragutin) 26.01.51

Ljubas, Hrvoje (Luka) 26.01.71

Loncar, Tihomir (Dorde) 28.03.55

Lovric, Joko (Ivo) 06.11.68

Lovric, Jozo (Lovro) 15.07.53

Lucic, Marko (Mijo) 08.09.54

Lukenda, Branko (Ivan) 14.04.61

Lukic, Mato (Marko) 02.03.63

Magdic, Mile (Ivan) 25.03.53

Magoc, Predrag (Mihael) 18.12.65

Majic, Robert (Tvrtko) 23.02.71

Major, Zeljko (Stjepan) 14.12.60

Mandic, Marko (Antun) 26.07.53

Maricic, Zdenko (Marko) 27.09.56

Marijanovic, Martin (Marko) 17.08.59

Mazar, Ivan (Antun) 20.11.34

Medesi, Andrija (Janko) 16.10.36

Medesi, Zoran (Andrija) 09.09.40

Meric, Ohran (Muhamed) 10.07.56

Mihovic, Tomislav (Gaspar) 23.06.52

Mikletic, Josip (Stjepan) 26.02.52

Mikulic, Zdravko (Slavko) 15.03.61

Mikulic, Zvonko (Slavko) 11.05.69

Milic, Slavko (Mijo) 17.04.55

Miljak, Zvonimir (Ivan) 10.05.50

Misic, Ivan (Marko) 22.12.68

Mlinaric, Mile (Pavo) 05.12.66

Mokos, Andrija (Stevan) 16.11.55

Molnar, Aleksandar (Stjepan) 08.04.65

Mutvar, Antun (Antun) 30.01.69

Nad, Darko (Vladimir) 27.02.65

Nad, Franjo (Franjo) 17.08.35

Nejasmic, Ivan (Milan) 19.10.58

Nicollier, Jean Michael 01.07.66

Omerovic, Mersad (Jusuf) 01.01.70

Oreski, Ivan (Dragutin) 12.04.50

Papp, Tomislav (Andrija) 01.01.63

Pataric, Zeljko (Nikola) 16.07.59

Pavlic, Slobodan (Adam) 24.09.65

Pavlovic, Zlatko (Duro) 19.11.63

Perak, Mato (Ante) 28.11.61

Perko, Aleksandar (Branko) 17.03.67

Perkovic, Damir (Josip) 28.10.65

Perkovic, Josip (Jure) 24.03.63

Petrovic, Stjepan (Stanko) 26.10.49

Pinter, Nikola (Nikola) 04.10.40

Plavsic, Ivan (Mato) 24.03.39

Podhorski, Janja (Stjepan) 17.11.31

Polhert, Damir (Ivan) 22.11.62

Polovina, Branimir (Vojin) 22.06.50

Posavec, Stanko (Gustav) 09.04.52

Pravdic, Tomo (Pero) 11.01.34

Prpic, Tomislav (Milan) 03.04.59

Pucar, Dmitar (Nikola) 18.01.49

Raguz, Ivan (Antun) 22.04.55

Rasic, Milan (Franjo) 16.04.54

Ratkovic, Kresimir (Milan) 04.03.68

Razic, Josip 17.11.69

Ribicic, Marko (Ivan) 11.11.51

Rimac, Salvador (Slavko) 06.11.60

Rohacek, Karlo (Antun) 21.10.42

Rohacek, Zeljko (Karlo) 16.05.71

Saiti, Ceman (Azem) 17.09.60

Samardzic, Damjan (Marko) 23.07.46

Savanovic, Tihomir (Dragoslav) 17.07.64

Sencic, Ivan (Martin) 21.02.64

Sotinac, Stipan (Jozo) 25.11.39

Spudic, Pavao (Ivan) 17.07.65

Stanic, Marko (Mato) 02.08.58

Stanic, Zeljko (Niko) 23.06.68

Stefanko, Petar (Vasilije) 05.05.42

Stojanovic, Ivan (Zivko) 19.03.49

Stubicar, Ljubomir (Vladimir) 12.07.54

Sajtovic, Davor (Martin) 13.11.61

Sajtovic, Martin (Adam) 14.04.28

Sarik, Stjepan (Stefan) 02.04.55

Saskin, Sead (Hasan) 22.03.60

Sindilj, Vjekoslav (Vladimir) 01.11.71

Srenk, Duro (Gabrijel) 21.04.43

Stefulj, Drazen (Juraj) 01.01.63

Tabacek, Antun (Josip) 05.06.58

Tadic, Tadija (Jozo) 26.08.59

Tarle, Dujo (Jozo) 06.05.50

Terek, Antun (Bozidar) 06.10.40

Tisljaric, Darko (Tomo) 01.06.71

Tivanovac, Ivica (Pavo) 22.02.63

Tomasic, Tihomir (Albin) 04.07.63

Tordinac, Zeljko (Ivan) 14.12.61

Tot, Tomislav (Eugen) 06.06.67

Traljic, Tihomir (Petar) 17.07.67

Turk, Miroslav (Antun) 12.04.50

Turk, Petar (Petar) 30.06.47

Tustonjic, Dane (Jozo) 10.10.59

Tuskan, Drazen (Dragutin) 26.10.66

Usak, Branko (Martin) 17.07.58

Vagenhofer, Mirko (Josip) 03.06.37

Varenica, Zvonko (Franjo) 19.05.57

Veber, Sinisa (Vladimir) 22.02.69

Vidos, Goran (Mato) 04.10.60

Vilenica, Zarko (Jovo) 19.06.69

Virges, Antun (Antun) 09.06.53

Vlaho, Mate (Drago) 03.02.59

Vlaho, Miroslav (Marko) 30.12.67

Voloder, Zlatan (Ljubo) 23.11.60

Von Basingger, Harllan (Dusan) 25.08.71

Vujevic, Zlatko (Antun) 28.10.51

Vukojevic, Slaven (Josip) 23.06.70

Vukovic, Rudolf (Rudolf) 18.11.61

Vukovic, Vladimir (Zlatko) 25.11.57

Vukovic, Zdravko (Nikola) 07.09.67

Vulic, Ivan (Ante) 18.07.46

Vulic, Vid (Vid) 01.09.41

Vulic, Zvonko (Ivan) 07.06.71

Zera, Mihajlo (Vasilj) 07.08.55

Zeljko, Josip (Danko) 14.03.53

Zeravica, Dominik (Stjepan) 11.11.59

Zivkovic, Damir (Josip) 17.11.70

Zivkovic, Goran (Pavao) 20.12.60

Zugec, Borislav (Mato) 21.11.63

THE ACCUSED

15. Mile MRKSIC, born on 20 July 1947 near Vrginmost, Croatia, was a colonel
in the JNA and was commander of the Guards Brigade which had primary
responsibility for the attack on Vukovar. After the siege of Vukovar, he was
promoted to general rank with the Yugoslav Army (JA) and later became the
commanding officer of the Army of the "Republic of Serb Krajina."

16. Miroslav RADIC, approximately 35 years of age, was a captain in the JNA.
He commanded a special infantry unit which was a component of the Guards
Brigade from Belgrade.

17. Veselin SLJIVANCANIN, born in 1953 near Zabljak, Montenegro, was a major
in the JNA in command of a military police battalion and also served as the
security officer for the Guards Brigade. He was the operational commander
for the JNA in the latter stages of the siege of Vukovar. Afterward, he was
promoted to the rank of colonel and is now in command of a JA brigade in
Podgorica, Montenegro.

GENERAL ALLEGATIONS

18. Unless otherwise set forth below, all acts and omissions alleged in this
indictment took place during November 1991 in Vukovar municipality in the
Republic of Croatia in the territory of the former Yugoslavia.

19. At all times relevant to this indictment, a state of international armed
conflict existed in the territory of the former Yugoslavia.

20. At all times relevant to this indictment, all persons described in this
indictment as victims were protected by the Geneva Conventions of 1949.

21. At all times relevant to this indictment, all of the accused in this
indictment were required to abide by the laws and customs governing the
conduct of war, including the Geneva Conventions of 1949.

22. All acts and omissions charged as crimes against humanity were part of a
widespread, systematic or large-scale attack against the non-Serb residents
of the municipality of Vukovar.

23. Each of the accused is individually responsible for the crimes alleged
against him in this indictment pursuant to Article 7(1) of the Tribunal
Statute. Individual criminal responsibility includes committing, planning,
instigating, ordering or otherwise aiding and abetting in the planning,
preparation or execution of any crimes referred to in Articles 2 to 5 of the
Tribunal Statute.

24. Each of the accused is also or alternatively criminally responsible as a
commander for the acts of his subordinates pursuant to Article 7(3) of the
Tribunal Statute. Command criminal responsibility is the responsibility of a
superior officer for the acts of his subordinate if he knew or had reason to
know that his subordinate was about to commit such acts or had done so and
the superior failed to take the necessary and reasonable measures to prevent
such acts or to punish the perpetrators thereof.

25. The general allegations contained in paragraphs 18 through 24 are
realleged and incorporated into each of the charges set forth below.

CHARGES

26. On about 20 November 1991, JNA and Serb paramilitary soldiers under the
command or supervision of Mile MRKSIC, Miroslav RADIC and Veselin
SLJIVANCANIN removed approximately 260 men from Vukovar Hospital and then
transported them to a farm building in Ovcara, where they beat the men for
several hours. Afterward, soldiers under the command or supervision of Mile
MRKSIC, Miroslav RADIC and Veselin SLJIVANCANIN transported the men in
groups of 10-20 to a site between the Ovcara farm and Grabovo, where they
shot and killed them. By their acts and omissions Mile MRKSIC, Miroslav
RADIC and Veselin SLJIVANCANIN, are criminally responsible for:

Beatings:

Count 1: GRAVE BREACHES of the Geneva Conventions of 1949 recognised by
Article 2(c) (wilfully causing great suffering) of the Tribunal Statute;

Count 2: VIOLATIONS OF THE LAWS OR CUSTOMS OF WAR recognised by Article 3
(cruel treatment) of the Tribunal Statute;

Count 3: CRIMES AGAINST HUMANITY recognised by Article 5(i) (inhumane acts)
of the Tribunal Statute.

Killings:

Count 4: GRAVE BREACHES of the Geneva Conventions of 1949 recognised by
Article 2(a) (wilful killing) of the Tribunal Statute;

Count 5: VIOLATIONS OF THE LAWS OR CUSTOMS OF WAR recognised by Article 3
(murder) of the Tribunal Statute;

Count 6: CRIMES AGAINST HUMANITY recognised by Article 5(a) (murder) of the
Tribunal Statute.
________________________

Richard J. Goldstone

Prosecutor

26 October 1995

The Hague,

The Netherlands

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----

Barry Moronovich

unread,

Aug 17, 2002, 11:16:24 PM8/17/02

"Barry Marjanovich" <bma...@telusplanet.net> wrote in message news:<15x79.3766$Eq3.1...@news0.telusplanet.net>...

> http://www.vido.ldh.org/images/serbia.jpg
>
> War against Croatia
> 1991-1995
>
> Prof. Albert Einstein, the outstanding scientist and Nobel Prize Winer said
> in his solemn protest (1931) AGAINST the Serb terror in Croatia, on behalf
> of the League for Defense of Human Rights : "All countries are in duty bound
> to shield the small, pacific and civilized CROAT Nation"

Poor man, he did not know that he was defeinding our Ustashi who would eliminate
cca 40000 Einstein's fellows Jews!

About our civilized nation - from those who weren't Serbs (Glenny, Malaparte):

Misha Glenny, The Balkans, Penguin Books 1999

Page 500

In July 1941, for example, some 500 Serbs, including women and children,
from Glina, a small town 65 kilometres south-east of Zagreb, were
arested and shot dead. As a consequence, the peasants from the surrounding
villages hid themselves in the woods. The Nuremberg Tribunal described
what happened next.

The Ustase offered an amnesty if they would convert to Roman
Catholicism. A majority of peasants agreed and returned to their villages.

"The mass conversion was organized and the peasants duly arrived at the
Serbian Orthodox church in Glina. 250 people turned up for the event.
They
were greeted by six members of Ustase. When all were inside, the chuch
doors were locked shut. The peasants were forced to lie on the ground
and the six Ustase begin hitting them with spiked clubs. More Ustase
appeared and one after another every single peasant was murdered
in this fashion"

**************************************************************************
The quote above comes from the Nuremberg Trials, quoted in

Ladislaus Hory and Martin Broszat
Der kroatische Ustascha-Staat, 1941-1945
Stuttgart, 1964, page 101

**************************************************************************
C. Malaparte, Kaputt, page 260
Nortwestern University Press, Evanston, IL

And so when I saw Ante Pavelic for the first time seated at his
writing table in a palace in the Old City in Zagreb, I felt as if I
were meeting an old friend, as if I had known him from the time
immemorial. I noticed his wide, flat face with its hard coarse
features. His eyes shone with a deep black fire in his pale, earthen
-coloured face. An undefinable air of stupidity was stamped on his
face, perhaps stemming from his huge ears, that seen closely, looked
even more vast, ludicrous, and monstrous than in his portraits.

C. Malaparte

Kaputt, page 266

Un paniere di ostriche

Mentre si parlava, io osservavo un paniere di vimini posto sulla
scrivania, alla sinistra del Poglawnik. Il coperchio era sollevato,
si vedeva che il paniere era colmo di frutti di mare, cosi mi parvevo,
e avrei detto di ostriche, ma tolte dal guscio, come quelle che si
vendono tavolta esposte, il grandi vassoi, nelle vetrine di Fortnum
and Mason, in Piccadilly a Londra. Casertano mi guardo, stringendo
l'occhio: <<Ti piacerebbe, eh, una bella zuppa di ostriche!>>

<< Sono ostriche della Dalmazia? >> domandai al Poglawnik.

Ante Pavelic sollevo il coperchio del paniere e mostrando quei frutti di
mare, quella massa viscida e gelatinosa di ostriche, disse sorridendo,
con quel suo sorriso buono e stanco: << E un regalo dei miei fedeli
ustascia sono venti chili di occhi umani. >>

English translation:

A basket of oysters

While he spoke, I gazed at a wicker basket on the Poglawnik's desk. The
lid was raised and the basket seemed to be filled with mussels, or
shelled oysters - as they are occasionally displayed in the windows of
Fortnum and Mason in Piccadilly in London. Casertano looked at me and
winked, <<Would you like a nice oyster stew?>>

<< Are they Dalmatian oysters? >> I asked the Poglawnik

Ante Pavelic removed the lid from the basket and revealed the mussels,
the slimy and jelly-like mass, and he said smiling, with that tired good-
natured smile of his,

<< It is a present from my loyal ustashis. Twenty kilos of human eyes >>

http://motlc.wiesenthal.com/resources/courage/p20.html

"They started with one huge husky peasant who began singing an old historical
heroic song of the Serbs. They put his head on the table and as he continued to
sing they slit his throat and then the next squad moved in to smash his skull.
'This is what you are all getting' an USTASA (Croatian Nazi) screamed. USTASE
surrounded us. ..Then the slaughter began...Within a matter of minutes we
stood in a lake of blood."
Ljubo Jadnak, Survivor, Yugoslavia

"This State, our country is only for Croatians, and not for anyone else. There
are no ways and means which we Croatians will not use to make our country
truly ours and to clean it of all Jews and orthodox Serbs. All those who came
to our country 300 years ago must disappear. We do not hide this our intention."
Milovan Zanic, Minister of Justice, Croatia
-----
UUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU
U All Moronovichs are genuine Croats. U
U Each Croat is, to some point, a Moronovich. U
UUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU

>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> ------------
>
> "Greater Serbianism has cost the lives of some 600,000 Croatians, 400,000
> Muslims, 100,000 Albanians, and countless others this century, not to
> mention non-conformist Serbs, and even people not from the Balkans. It has
> ethnically cleansed some five million inhabitants since 1900, wounded,
> maimed and imprisoned over two million, and caused hundreds of billions of
> dollars worth of material damage."
>

This comes from Einstein, too? Barry, may God love your unhappy mother - go to
see a good psychiatrist at once!

Barry Moronovich

unread,

Aug 17, 2002, 11:19:37 PM8/17/02

"Barry Marjanovich" <bma...@telusplanet.net> wrote in message news:<%Bj79.30215$X5.56...@news2.telusplanet.net>...

> http://www.vido.ldh.org/images/serbia.jpg
>
> ssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss
> sss
> CCCC Vukovar Hospital Massacre CCCC
> SSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS
>
> What Kind Of Monsters Would Torture and Kill Hospital Patients?
>

Barry, here you have a number of stories about mmonsters:

Suzan

unread,

Aug 18, 2002, 5:00:38 AM8/18/02

Barry Marjanovich schreef

> War against Croatia
> 1991-1995
>
> Prof. Albert Einstein, the outstanding scientist and Nobel Prize Winer
said
> in his solemn protest (1931) AGAINST the Serb terror in Croatia, on behalf
> of the League for Defense of Human Rights : "All countries are in duty
bound
> to shield the small, pacific and civilized CROAT Nation"

What has the war wherein Croatia was involved (1991-1995) to do with what
Einstein said 60 years back?

Einstein also refused presidency of Israel.
Einstein also rejected a beautiful russian woman even though he appeared to
be in love with her.

Ahwell.... sometimes people make mistakes.

Suzan

Robert Jerin

unread,

Aug 18, 2002, 8:07:16 AM8/18/02

"kirill" <kir...@university.ca> wrote in message
news:3D5DC11B...@university.ca...
>
>

Geez that stink is back again!

Mir Harven

unread,

Aug 18, 2002, 9:13:51 AM8/18/02

On Sun, 18 Aug 2002 11:00:38 +0200, "Suzan" <drui...@hotmail.com>
wrote:

She was a Soviet spy. So, Einstein was, tho unintentionally, simply
an American patriot.

>
>Ahwell.... sometimes people make mistakes.

Not with this babe.

>
>Suzan
>

Barry Marjanovich

unread,

Aug 18, 2002, 10:44:26 AM8/18/02

Barry Moronovich" <bsata...@yahoo.com> (Actually a hiding SERVIAN WAR
CRIMINAL named MIRKO DJURIC, Servian Satanist, murderer, torturer, and
all-around Servian SLOBodian) served:

>Greetings to my Servian Satanists and eternal glory to our leader Satan
SLOBo of great servia and The Hague:

http://www.un.org/icty/indictment/english/mil-ii011008e.htm
http://www.vido.ldh.org/images/serbia.jpg
ssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss
"Lying is a form of our patriotism and is evidence of our innate
intelligence. We lie in a creative, imaginative, and inventive
way."

Dobrica COSIC - former president of self styled Yugo-slave-ia
and a Member of Servian Academy of Arts and Sciences, referring
to the Servian nation.
sssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss

The story of the Servian sacrifice and Golgotha should be in every
elementary history book. That was the price the Servs were ready to
pay.(Excerpt from The Theft of the Servs' Only Treasure by Petar
Makara. July 5, 2001)

SERVIAN ACTION A:
http://www.vido.ldh.org/images/serbia.jpg

CROATIAN REACTION:
http://www.kakarigi.net/croatia/news/dossier/eng/index.html

SERVIAN ACTION B:
http://www.kakarigi.net/croatia/news/dossier/eng/predaja1.html

A Servian terrorist makes a confession:

"To understand the Servs is to understand our sense of pride; it is to
understand why we the Servs celebrate June 28, St. Vitus Day, the day
of the Kosovo Battle of 1389. We are a sick people who celebrate a day
of our defeat."

http://www.vido.ldh.org/images/serbia.jpg
servsssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssservs

"If we Servs cannot work, we can surely fight."

Slobo Milosevic (also known as Satan SLOBo), at his 1989 inauguration
as president, timed to coincide with the 600th anniversary of the
Battle of Kosovo Polje, in which the Turks overran the Servs.

servssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssservs
http://www.vido.ldh.org/images/serbia.jpg
ccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccc
Current President Of Serbia Is An Indicted War Criminal Milan
Milutinovic
http://www.interpol.int/Public/Wanted/Notices/Data/1999/12/1999_29612.asp
http://www.vido.ldh.org/images/serbia.jpg
http://www.hbk.hr/crkve/eindex.html
http://www.dssrewards.net/english/warcrimes/warcriminals.html

http://www.vido.ldh.org/images/serbia.jpg

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/020710/170/1ttb3.html

Barry Marjanovich

unread,

Aug 18, 2002, 10:48:05 AM8/18/02

Barry Marjanovich

unread,

Aug 18, 2002, 10:56:25 AM8/18/02

New York Times, May 6, 1931, p. 1, 3.

'Einstein accuses Yugoslavian rulers in Savant's murder'

Accusing the Yugoslav Government of the murder of a Croatian, Professor
Milan Sufflay, who was struck down in the streets of Agram [Zagreb] on Feb.
18, Professor Albert Einstein and the novelist Heinrich Mann, brother of
Thomas Mann, have sent a joint letter to the international headquarters of
the League for the Rights of Man in Paris urging a protest against the
"horrible brutality which is being practiced upon the Croatian people."

The letter also was signed by the German headquarters of the league. The
Paris headquarters, upon receipt of the communication, immediately
undertook steps toward an effective protest to Belgrade.

"As the professor was walking home on the fatal day he was attacked from
behind with an iron rod, according to our information, and felled," the
letter of protest reads. On the next day he died and he was buried on the
twenty-second beside other Croatians."

Professor Sufflay was noted for a long list of scientific books, the letter
continues. "Yet Agram newspapers were not allowed to report his activities
and the news of his death was suppressed," the protest goes on. "Condolence
telegrams were not delivered. The time of the funeral was not allowed to be
made public and the raising of a mourning flag on the university was
forbidden. The authorities went so far as to expel those school children
who took part in the funeral and to remove wreaths which were bound with
the Croatian national colors from the grave.

"The name of the murderer was known. It was Nikola Jukich. His organization
(Young Yugoslavia) likewise is known. It was even known that arrangements
for the murder had been worked out on the night of the eleventh in the home
of the military commandant of the city, General Beli Markowitsch, at a
session in which members of the Young Yugoslavia organization, Brkitsch,
Godler, Marischetz and the murderer Jukich, took part. Yet the Zagreb
police officially stated the next day that the name of the murderer was not
known.

Turning to the events leading up to the murder, Professor Einstein and the
other signers charged that when the King visited the Croatian capital in
January numerous leading Croats received letters, signed "For King and
Country," in which their lives and those of their families were threatened
if they uttered any protest while the King was there. Professor Sufflay
received one of the letters, it is charged.

"The name of this terrorist organization was Young Yugoslavia," the protest
continued. "The King, in an address to the organization, told how the
Croatian representatives to Parliament had been put out of the way at his
request. An example of this was the shooting of a Croatian leader on the
floor of the House on June 20, 1928."

Following the King's visit the murder of political and intellectual leaders
of the Croatians was openly demanded in the government press, says the
letter.

The official organ, Nasha Sloga, in Sushak, on Feb. 18 wrote, 'Skulls will
be split.' The same evening Professor Sufflay was struck down," the letter
says.

In January the delegates to the Croatian National Assembly sent a
memorandum to Geneva calling attention to the situation in Croatia.

"The facts show that the cruelty and brutality practiced upon the Croatians
only increase," Professor Einstein's letter says. "In view of this
frightful situation, we urge the International League for the Rights of Man
to do everything possible to suppress this unrestrained rule of might which
prevails in Croatia.

"Murder as a political weapon must not be tolerated and political murderers
must not be made national heroes. The league should muster all possible aid
to protect this small, peaceful and highly civilized people."

Professor Milan Sufflay, who was murdered in Zagreb on February 18, had
been Professor of History at Zagreb University for ten years. He had
written many works on the history of Albania. In 1920, because of his
connection with Croat extremists, he was sentenced to two and a half years'
imprisonment for lese-majesté and high treason. On his release he resumed
his political activities.

Protests against the Yugoslav dictatorship of King Alexander have been
frequent since the murder of Profesor Sufflay and the many "suicides" of
Croats and Macedonians in the prisons of Belgrade and Zagreb.

Three Serbs were arrested in Vienna recently who were alleged to have been
sent there on a murder mission with the knowledge of the Zagreb Chief of
Police.

The bitter feeling in Yugoslavia has resulted in numerous bombings and
assassinations. When King Alexander proclaimed the dictatorship two years
ago his chief problem was the deadlock caused by the refusal of Croatia to
be dominated by a parliamentary government recruited largely from extreme
Serbian sources.

Suzan

unread,

Aug 18, 2002, 12:20:19 PM8/18/02

Mir Harven schreef

> >> Prof. Albert Einstein, the outstanding scientist and Nobel Prize Winer
> >said
> >> in his solemn protest (1931) AGAINST the Serb terror in Croatia, on
behalf
> >> of the League for Defense of Human Rights : "All countries are in duty
> >bound
> >> to shield the small, pacific and civilized CROAT Nation"
> >
> >What has the war wherein Croatia was involved (1991-1995) to do with what
> >Einstein said 60 years back?
> >
> >Einstein also refused presidency of Israel.
> >Einstein also rejected a beautiful russian woman even though he appeared
to
> >be in love with her.
>
> She was a Soviet spy.

True.

> So, Einstein was, tho unintentionally, simply
> an American patriot.

Perhaps it would have been better than if he fell into the trap the Russians
laid out for him ;)

Thinks might have been a bit different.

Suzan

Barry Marjanovich

unread,

Aug 18, 2002, 2:35:53 PM8/18/02

http://www.vido.ldh.org/images/serbia.jpg

[ Courtesy of Prof. Matko Marusic. ]

Division of Information & Research Ministry of Health of the Republic of
Croatia

CIVILIAN CASUALTIES IN THE WAR AGAINST CROATIA 1991/92 AND SEVERE VIOLATIONS
OF HUMAN RlGHTS OF CIVILTAN POPULATION: WAR CRIMES, CRIMES AGAINST HUMANITY,
AND ETHNIC CLEANSING
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
According to the official records of the Division of Information & Research,
Ministry of Health of the Republic of Croatia (dated August 24, 1993) there
were 24,028 wounded and 6,651 killed (on the basis of reports of commanders
of Croatian Army units additional 1,200 deceased soldiers should be
included!) citizens of Croatia as the direct result of aggressive attacks of
Yugoslav Army and Serbian paramilitary troops. Among these casualties, there
were 7,081 wounded civilians (among them 745 children, 3 priests and 27
medical doctors or other members of medical personnel) and 2,265 killed
civilians (among them 169 children, 2 priests and 5 medical doctors or other
members of medical personnel), while remaining casualties are represented by
members of Croatian defence forces. These data alone point to the unusually
high proportion of civilians among the total casualties (one third of all
wounded and killed persons!). However, these data represent only the minimal
number of firmly ascertained casualties (based on medical and autopsy
records) and therefore they significantly underestimate the total number of
casualties. The following data represent the estimation of additional
casualties and they also point out clearly that the proportion of civilian
casualties is definitively much higher:

1. CIVILIANS MASSACRED AND EXECUTED WITHIN THE OCCUPIED TERRITORY OF CROATIA
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
According to the number of well-documented independent testimonies of
survivors and eye-witnesses, at least 1,000 Croatian civilians mostly
elderly people, over 60 years of age) were massacred, executed or brutally
murdered by Serbian paramilitaries in a number of villages within the
presently occupied part of the Croatian territory (in the regions of:
Eastern Slavonia excluding Vukovar Western Slavonia Banija Kordun Lika and
Dalmatia). Additional killings of Croatian civilians (at least i00 victims)
occurred in UNPROFOR Sector East (Baranja and Vukovar) and Sector South
(Benkovac, Zadar hinterland) after the UNPROFOR had taken responsibility in
these occupied parts of Croatia.

2. CIVILIANS MASSACRED AND EXECUTED FROM THE TOWN OF VUKOVAR ALONE
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
According to the present official data, there were at least 1,851 killed
citizens of Croatia in the town of Vukovar, as follows: 590 recorded in the
Division Of Information & Research Ministry of Health until November 6,
1991; 709 as listed on the *List of identified dead- presented by Yugoslav
Army pathologists after the occupation of Vukovar; persons executed or
murdered after the occupation in Vukovar itself or subsequently in Serbian
camps, according to written testimonies of survivors and eye- witnesses and
2g6 according to the list compiled by grave- digger from Vukovar, However,
since there are still 2,642 missing or forcefully disappeared persons from
Vukovar (who disappeared after the occupation of Vukovar by Yugoslav Army -
295 of them disappeared directly from Vukovar hospital, as follows: 18
employees of Vukovar hospital, 25 members of hospital assisting personnel,
53 civilians and 199 wounded patients), and we have every reason to believe
that most of them were killed, too, we estimate the total number Of
casualties in Vukovar to about 4,500 to 5,000 people. About 70% of them were
either strictly civilians or members of the defence organisation of the
town.

3. MASS GRAVES IN THE UNPROFOR SECTOR EAST ("SECTOR E"):
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
As a consequence of a number of summary executions and arbitrary mass
killings of Croatian civilians as well as some captured Croatian soldiers,
jointly committed by Yugoslav Army and Serbian paramilitary troops, there
are presently a number of mass graves within the occupied part of Croatia
(UNPROFOR Sectors East, West, North and South as well as so-called "pink
zones"). The exact number of mass graves and victims of summary executions
is still unknown. However, to illustrate the extent and brutality of that
kind of war crime, here we offer a concise and selective list of eleven such
localities (the probable number of victims murdered and buried at each
locality is given in brackets) within the present UNPROFOR Sector "E" only:
1. Ovcara (295 victims); 2. Five localities within the town of Vukovar:
sports stadium "Sloga" (120 victims), Old Brickery building at Sajmiste
(about 250 victims), Gelesova Dol near Petrova Gora (about 70 victims); 3.
Lovas (about 140 victims); 4. Tovarnik - four mass graves with about 250
victims; 5. Jakobovac (about 300 victims); 6. Petrovci (16 victims); 7.
Ernestinovo (several mass graves); 8. Tordinci (208 victims); 9. Dalj (about
300 victims); 10. Berak (32 victims) and 11. Bodganovci - Vukovar line (over
300 persons disappeared in this area).

4. MISSING PERSONS:
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
Furthermore, the total number of presently missing persons in Croatia
(according to the evidence of Croatian Red Cross Tracing Service) is 12,751
persons (among them 416 missing children - 85 from the Vukovar alone!). The
greatest number of missing persons is recorded in the following regions:
East Slavonia 4,485 (2,642 from Vukovar alone!); Banija and Kordun 987; Lika
180; Dalmatia 491; West Slavonia 592; Baranja 275; Lika 180; Dubrovnik 114.

5. INVALIDS OF THE WAR ACCORDING TO THE STRICT `WHO' CRITERIA:
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
Until March 29, 1993, Division of Information & Research, Ministry of Health
of the Republic of Croatia, has recorded 2,360 invalids of the war
classified according to the strict WHO criteria: 889 of them are civilians,
while the remaining 1,471 are members of Croatian defence forces. A number
of invalids of the war still remain to be fully analysed and classified.

6. EXCHANGED FROM SERBIAN CONCENTRATION CAMPS AND PRISONS:
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
Until August 24, 1993 Division of Information & Research Ministry of Health
of the Republic of Croatia has recorded 6,473 persons released through
exchange from Serbian concentration camps and prisons (3,766 of them were
citizens of Vukovar!).

7. MALTREATMENT IN SERBIAN CONCENTRATION CAMPS AND PRISONS
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
According to the results of comprehensive medical examinations, about 90% of
all detainees were maltreated and tortured; extensive medical documentation
about the victims of torture in detention has been collected until the
present. Furthermore, medical institutions of Croatia are in possession of
complete documentation on 40 cases of sexual abuse as well as incomplete
documentation on additional 120 cases of sexual abuse.

8. DISPLACED PERSONS IN CROATIA AND REFUGEES FROM BOSNIA AND HERZEGOVINA:
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
On August 24, 1993 Office for Refugees and Displaced Persons of the
Government of the Republic of Croatia has recorded 211,667 displaced persons
59,916 are children) within Croatia plus 248,727 refugees from Bosnia and
Herzegovina i.e. the total of 530,491 displaced persons and refugees in
Croatia.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----

Fossil Cloud

unread,

Aug 18, 2002, 5:09:01 PM8/18/02

..and that is how you heard the name 'Einstein' for the first time

Barry Moronovich

unread,

Aug 18, 2002, 5:32:41 PM8/18/02

Yet another proof that Einstein was completely fooled out and, therefore,
an ignorant!

Pele predicted very high post of the Croatian national team on the last FIFA
World Cup - didn't he? Was it true?

-----
UUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU
U All Moronovichs are genuine Croats. U
U Each Croat is, to some point, a Moronovich. U
UUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU

"Barry Marjanovich" <bma...@telusplanet.net> wrote in message news:<tAO79.6482$Eq3.2...@news0.telusplanet.net>...

Robert Jerin

unread,

Aug 18, 2002, 6:29:00 PM8/18/02

http://www.sarajevo-2010.ba/engversion/ZOI/index.html

Barry Marjanovich

unread,

Aug 19, 2002, 12:51:33 AM8/19/02

http://www.igc.apc.org/wcw/icty/suspects/Veselin_Sljivancanin.html

http://www.vido.ldh.org/images/serbia.jpg

http://www.igc.apc.org/wcw/icty/suspects/Veselin_Sljivancanin.html

Sasha

unread,

Aug 19, 2002, 10:56:24 AM8/19/02

"Profesor.Baltazar" <profesor...@goni.se> wrote in message news:<3D5D8933...@goni.se>...
> Sasha wrote:
>
> > Anyway, you lost that war
> > hopelessly and now you turn that battle into a myth, he, he, he.
>
> Marjanovich, Todorovac, sad opet ovaj poremeceni... Ima li itko normalan na ovim grupama?

Cek da vidim sta si ti to pametno pisao ovde:

1. "I don't know what Krajina is...", bezi nazad u osnovnu skolu.
2. "Take a Prozac and breath deeply...", vrlo relevantno za svaku
diskusiju.
3. "How's the Kosovo campaign going?", beznadezno neinformisan.

Jos nesto pametno? Probao sam da nadjem ali slaba vajda.

Bas mi je zao zbog takvih Hrvata kao sto si ti sto je Tudjman morao da
pita Perisisca da li sme da napadne Krajinu. Saucestvujem u tvom bolu,
ali da znas da nije zdravo neprekidno potiskivati tu informaciju, moze
da izazove sizofreniju.

Sasa Aleksandric

Sasha

unread,

Aug 19, 2002, 11:07:03 AM8/19/02

"adrian" <akoz...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<ajkrng$5uau$1...@as201.hinet.hr>...

> Sasha <a_s...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:24bf1311.02081...@posting.google.com...
> > mha...@softhome.net (Mir Harven) wrote in message
> news:<3d590cac...@news.tel.hr>...
> > > http://www.washtimes.com/world/20020811-24444994.htm
> > >
> > > quoted without permission
> > >
> >
> <rubbish snipped out>
>
> Sremski Karlovci (canter of Serbs
> > in Slavonia)
>
> Sremski Karlovci (as the name says) are in Srijem, and that is in Vojvodina.
> not Slavonija.

In the times of Baroque when "the plains' Salzburg, little Prague" was
profiled, Sremski Karlovci was center of Serbs in Slavonia and
Vojvodina. BTW, how about "Srijem is Croatian" NDH's slogan?

> >
> > BTW, who won the last elections in Vukovar before the war? Was that
> > SDS?
>
> no, it was SKH-SDP
> normal people on both "sides" voted for them.

My mistake, but were they allowed to take the office?

Sasa Aleksandric

adrian

unread,

Aug 19, 2002, 11:26:01 AM8/19/02

Sasha <a_s...@hotmail.com> wrote in message

news:24bf1311.0208...@posting.google.com...

> >
> > Sremski Karlovci (as the name says) are in Srijem, and that is in
Vojvodina.
> > not Slavonija.
>
> In the times of Baroque when "the plains' Salzburg, little Prague" was
> profiled, Sremski Karlovci was center of Serbs in Slavonia and
> Vojvodina. BTW, how about "Srijem is Croatian" NDH's slogan?

I don't know many NDH's slogans. But Srijem was Croatian long before NDH (as
you just noticed).

> >
> > no, it was SKH-SDP
> > normal people on both "sides" voted for them.
>
> My mistake, but were they allowed to take the office?

of course they were, just like SDP took ofice in Rijeka and wherever else
they won.

adrian

unread,

Aug 19, 2002, 11:29:14 AM8/19/02

Sasha <a_s...@hotmail.com> wrote in message

news:24bf1311.02081...@posting.google.com...
> mha...@softhome.net (Mir Harven) wrote in message
news:<3d590cac...@news.tel.hr>...
> > http://www.washtimes.com/world/20020811-24444994.htm
> >
> > quoted without permission
> >
>
> <rubbish snipped out>
>

> Wow, Vukovar is "Croatia's Stalingrad". It is interesting to watch a
> creation of national mythology while it transpires. Vukovar was only
> sidekick job of JA,

opet malo da te ispravljam
nije sidekick job neko side job. vidi se da si ucio engleski iz stripova.

>
> Of course that more shells fell on Vukovar in 1991 then during the
> entire WWII since there was no battle for Vukovar in WWII. Correct me
> if i am wrong but i bet no more then one shell (maybe two?) was fired
> off on Vukovar in that period.

srijemski front je bio kod Vukovara. dosta toga je popadalo po njemu. da ne
spominjem saveznicka bombardiranja. vjerujem da im je bata bila zanimljiva
tvornica.

Barry Marjanovich

unread,

Aug 19, 2002, 12:19:04 PM8/19/02

Vukovar heroine returns home
By Danijela Nadj, April 4, 1997

This week, director of Vukovar Hospital Dr. Vesna Bosanac returned to
Vukovar for a short stay. As part of her "welcome," the HDZ (Croatian
Democratic Union) representatives and Croatian journalists who accompanied
Bosanac on her visit to this city encountered many local Serbs, who threw
eggs, rocks and bricks at them.
This unpleasant welcome, however, did not throw the Croatian visitors off
balance, especially not Dr. Bosanac, who considered the shower of eggs a
much smaller problem than the shower of grenades she and her colleagues had
been subjected to, day and night, during the months of Serbian attacks on
this city.

It is clear that displaced Croats will return to Vukovar, but for many local
Serbs the return of people like Dr. Bosanac will not be pleasant.

The Vukovar heroine Vesna Bosanac was born in 1949 in Subotica, but when she
was two years old, her family moved to Vukovar. She earned her degree in
medicine and specialized in pediatrics in Zagreb.

She and her husband, Lavoslav, have two sons; her family experienced the
fate of the majority of Vukovar residents during the period of Greater
Serbian aggression on this city.

The Croatian and world public remember Dr. Vesna Bosanac by her appeals for
help for Vukovar in its most difficult days. "In the name of 15,000
civilians, 2,000 children, 500 severely wounded we beg all humanitarian
organizations for help," pleaded the director of Vukovar Hospital.

A year ago in The Hague, she testified against Serbian war criminals Veselin
Sljivancanin, Mile Mrksic, and Miroslav Radic, charged with the massacre at
Ovcara, near Vukovar, where about 260 Vukovar civilians and wounded were
executed on November 20, 1991. During her testimony, she reported that, on
Vukovar's worst days, as many as 9,000 grenades daily fell on the city,
bringing some 60 seriously wounded people to the hospital.

Sljivancanin and Mrksic ordered her arrest immediately before the execution
of Vukovar's wounded. Vesna Bosanac tried to save these wounded, but to no
avail. The fact is that Vukovar's victims, before the Serbian occupation of
Vukovar, hoped until the very last second for the arrival of European Union
and International Red Cross observers, who were supposed to evacuate the
hospital and transport the people to safety, but they did not come.

When two humanitarians finally arrived, they were accompanied by Veselin
Sljivancanin.

At this opportunity, he took four copies of lists of wounded patients
awaiting evacuation from Dr. Vesna Bosanac and informed the hospital staff
that their director had been replaced and that doctors of the Military
Medical Academy in Belgrade would conduct the hospital evacuation.

Generals of the Serbian army had no grounds for the malicious bombing of the
medical center. No military centers or bases were inside or in the vicinity
of the hospital. Before the arrival of the occupying army, 392 wounded
patients and about 200 medical employees and civilians were in the hospital.

Some estimate that, from the beginning of Vukovar's siege, about 185 wounded
came to Vukovar Hospital. Dr. Bosanac selflessly concerned herself with each
one of them and, together with many colleagues (one of whom - surgeon Dr.
Jurij Njavar - the public remembers particularly well), sought help from all
sides at a time when there was not enough medicine, medical supplies, or
even water.

Dr. Vesna Bosanac became a symbol of Vukovar and Croatia's resistance to the
Serbian aggression, a symbol of humanity, self-sacrifice, and courage, and
was even nominated for a Nobel prize. After the occupation of Vukovar, when
she was arrested and together with many captives taken to prison at Sremska
Mitrovica, where she was imprisoned three weeks, the Serbian media compared
her with Nazi criminal Mengel.

Serbian propaganda wanted to twist the view of Dr. Bosanac with lies no
serious member of the world public could believe.

The Serbian side, which in no way could find a single reason to justify its
crimes in Vukovar, was determined at least to minimize or rationalize these
crimes, unsuccessfully attempting to roll the symbol of Vukovar's resistance
in its own mud.

The serious riot that many Vukovar Serbs generated on the occasion of
Croatian representatives' recent visit to this city shows that the peaceful
reintegration process of the Croatian Danube region won't come easily.

But no riot, however, will be able to stop the reintegration process.

The day is not too far off when Croats and other displaced people, including
people like Dr. Vesna Bosanac, will begin returning to their city.

Barry Marjanovich

unread,

Aug 19, 2002, 1:35:34 PM8/19/02

WHY HAS THE INTERNATIONAL RED CROSS BEEN SILENT?
Vecernji List, September 29, 1997, p.6.
by Vladimir P. Goss

In a time when US media has been competing to accuse Croatia of the most
wrongdoing, a huge headline has been published in the Canadian 'Toronto
Star': "Serbian Red Cross involved in murders - the role of Serbian Red
Cross is being investigated." Newspaper journalist Ms. Rebecca Bragg claims
that there is confirmed information that the Serbian Red Cross was involved
in killings, rapes and multi-ethnic cleansing in Bosnia and Herzegovina
between 1992 and 1995. The International Red Cross Committee (ICRC) is
familiar with the case but the whole situation has been hushed so as to
protect the "reputation, confidence and neutrality of the Red Cross". The
'Toronto Star' story is about the victims who were taken by the Serbian Red
Cross in buses on Mt. Vlasic where the victims were apparently lost. The
main source of information is Ms. Valentina Krcmar, who is the founder and
one of the leaders of the Canadian branch of the 'Croatian Mothers Appeal'
humanitarian organization. She was also helped by Ms. Margaret Butkovic.

MS. VALENTINA KRCMAR: "One of the focuses of our interest is the activity of
the Red Cross organization in Bosnia and Herzegovina and Croatia. The
sources of information of those activities have emanated from our main
office in Zagreb. In February of 1992 we presented the documentation on the
prison camps in Bosnia and Herzegovina at the meeting of the Canadian branch
of the ICRC in Ottawa, at which was present the Head of the ICRC, Mr. Rene
de Grace. We hoped that he will present this information to the public and
media. We didn't hear from him until the summer of 1993, when he was invited
for an interview on a radio show. He discussed horrors that young girl from
Sarajevo, Irma Muratovic, had endured and he said that he was horrified when
he heard about the "prison camps in Bosnia and Herzegovina in July 1992"!?
I almost fainted when he stated this as I personally told him about the
prison camps in Bosnia and Herzegovina in February of 1992, not in July as
he had stated in the radio interview. After that I called him and we had a
serious argument over the issue."

V. GOSS: "One of the information sources that you received was a report of
the former Austrian Ambassador to the UN, Mr. Peter Hohenfellner. How did
you manage to get a hold of that material?"

MS. VALENTINA KRCMAR: "The mutual cooperation between the organizations here
is very good. One young student, Ms. Cynthia Ivankovic, provided us with the
information from the 1993 February UN Security Council's Report. The report
writes about a pamphlet in which Ambassador Hohenfellner clearly recounted
the actions of the Serbian Red Cross. For instance, according to the
pamphlet, in the Keraterm Prisoner Camp, 20 people were forced to lie down
on the ground whilst trucks of the Serbian Red Cross drove over their legs."

V. GOSS: "That means that the UN knew about the problematic issue?"

MS. VALENTINA KRCMAR: "Yes the UN knew about it! I automatically wrote a
letter to Mr. Rene de Grace in Ottawa and asked him to answer my questions:
1. What are the relations between the Serbian and Canadian Red Cross as
well as with the International level of the Red Cross?
2. Did the Canadian Red Cross know about the horrors that were described in
the pamphlet of the Austrian Ambassador?
3. What are the future actions of the International Red Cross Committee
regarding this issue?

I received answers after a four month period. My questions were answered by
a lower ranked official of the Red Cross, Ms. Helen Alderson, who stated
that ".because of the confidentiality and neutrality of the International
Red Cross, the Canadian branch of the International Red Cross will take no
measures nor will it publicly announce the case."

I sent a letter again to the same address, but have yet to receive a
response. I give credit to Rebecca Brag who is a rare journalist, showing
keen interest in the case, but I must say that she did initially show much
hesitation before deciding to pursue the story.

One of our main concerns is that the Serbian Red Cross took charge of the
wounded from the Vukovar General Hospital and we know that the next day they
were all killed by Serbian paramilitaries and the Yugoslav Army.

So far I have written letters to the Canadian Ministry of Health and have
demanded of them an urgent session to discover the involvement of Canada and
a resolution of the issue. I asked for the involvement of the International
Red Cross in the sessions. Ivo Hrvoic, the Head of the Canadian - Croatian
Congress will press charges against the Serbian Red Cross who is, we
believe, responsible for the criminal actions in Vukovar. The decision will
be brought in a few days."

Barry Marjanovich

unread,

Aug 19, 2002, 6:08:45 PM8/19/02

http://www.vido.ldh.org/images/serbia.jpg

The Homeland War

Battlefields (1991 - 1993)

During the first democratic elections in Croatia in 1990, the Greater
Serbian regime in Serbia, with the help of the Serb-oriented JNA and a part
of the Serbian population in Croatia, started making operational
preparations for a military aggression against the Republic of Croatia. The
aggression began with the instigation of an armed rebellion by one part of
the Serbian population in Croatia and with the involvement of the JNA, first
logistically and then militarily. As the intensity and pace of the Serbian
aggression against Croatia increased, Serbian formations from Serbia,
Montenegro and Bosnia and Hercegovina started participating in the attacks
with increasing frequency. The directions, intensity and sequencing of the
Serbian attacks determined the corresponding organization of the Croatian
defence and the creation of eight areas (battlefields) where the aggressor
was stopped. The battle of Vukovar has to be singled out because of its
special significance. The defense operations on all battlefields started
independently and were gradually co-ordinated and united following the
creation and consolidation of the Croatian Army (HV).

The Battle of Vukovar

On 2 May 1991, after several months of preparations, the Serbian Chetnik
formations started the onslaught on the municipality of Vukovar by the
massacre of 12 Croatian policemen in Borovo Selo. The course of the Serbian
invasion was slowed for various military and political reasons, so that
Serbia conquered the unprotected villages of the municipality of Vukovar
over the following months, with a constant increase of artillery fire
directed towards the town. By the end of August Vukovar was surrounded by a
huge number of Serbian military forces. Serbia deployed approximately 600
tanks or armoured vehicles around the Vukovar area (in Croatia and
Vojvodina), a large number of all sorts of artillery weapons, 40,000 to
60,000 well-armed soldiers, huge quantities of ammunition, and unrivaled
Serbian military airplanes. New weapons, ammunition and manpower poured into
the region from Serbia when needed, with no difficulty.

The besieged town of Vukovar was defended by 700-800 members of the Croatian
National Guard and police and about 1000 volunteers. They were poorly armed
with automatic and semi-automatic rifles, a few machine-guns and cannons, a
limited number of anti-tank weapons, a large number of mines and small
provisions of ammunition. Additional supplies of military equipment, medical
material and food could have been brought to Croatian soldiers only by
breaking the siege. According to military estimates, the balance of power
was such that it should have allowed Vukovar to resist the siege for only
two days. And yet the besieged town managed to resist the enemy for 86 days.

The battle of Vukovar, also called »the Hell of Vukovar«, started on 25
August when the Serbian Army, after artillery and air preparations, launched
a total artillery and infantry attack which was repelled by the defenders
after a few days. The fiercest attempt at conquering the town started on 14
September and lasted until 20 September. In those seven days the defenders
of Vukovar destroyed 130 Serbian tanks and armoured vehicles, giving
Trpinjska Road, where most of the attacks took place, the name of »tank
cemetery«.

After that defeat, the Serbian Army changed its tactics. The besieged city
was exposed to constant artillery destruction and air bombardments with
attempts to break into the town concentrated on certain points. Vukovar was
gradually turned into ruins; the life of its inhabitants and the activity of
the destroyed Medical Centre continued in cellars. The resistance of
Vukovar's defenders and the plight of the besieged town brought it into the
spotlight and made headlines around the world, but increasing appeals for
help were met only with rhetoric. In October, the convoys of international
humanitarian and health organizations did not succeed in delivering relief
either to the hospital or to the inhabitants. Hundreds of wounded people who
were driven from Vukovar were soon replaced by still more wounded people. It
was not possible to deliver aid in weapons or ammunition to the exhausted
defenders. The Serbian siege of Vukovar became tighter after the fall of the
strategically important Marinci on 1 October. When the Croatian Army started
to break through to Vukovar in mid-October, EU observers issued an ultimatum
requiring that the action be immediately halted. The Serbian Army tried
unsuccessfully to break into a completely destroyed town. At the beginning
of November the Command Headquarters of the Serbian Army moved to the
vicinity of Vukovar and they directly led the attack upon Luzac, a part of
the city. The defenders of Luzac were forced to withdraw to the town centre
after they had run out of anti-tank weapons. The fall of Luzac and the
failure to deliver substantial aid marked the beginning of Vukovar's
agonizing attempt to secure its defence. Very soon, on 11 November,
Bogdanovci fell to the Serbs and it was the only town, along with Vukovar,
which had resisted the Serbian aggressor.

In the last days of the battle, the defense of the city was broken in two
places: one followed the line from Luzac towards the Danube and the other
followed the bed of the river Vuka towards the centre of the town. The
defenders of Vukovar had no more anti-tank powder charge, so they split into
smaller groups and broke through towards the west. One group of defenders in
Mitnica and Borovo Naselje were completely besieged and without ammunition.
They were captured together with other civilians on 18 November 1991.

According to data which is incomplete, 1,700 people were killed in the
defense of Vukovar (1,100 of them were civilians), more than 4,000 people
were wounded, between three and five thousand taken prisoner, and several
thousand people either disappeared or were displaced. Vukovar was defended
by approximately 1,800 fighters who were organized in the 204th brigade of
the Croatian National Guard in the course of the defence; about 40% of the
defenders were volunteers from all parts of Croatia, Bosnia and Hercegovina
and from the Diaspora. Approximately 500 Serbian armoured vehicles were
destroyed in the defense of Vukovar (200 of them were tanks) and 25 combat
planes were shot down. The number of Serbian soldiers and Chetniks killed is
estimated to be between 10,000 and 15,000, and between 25,000 and 30,000
wounded. The Serbian Army was materially, politically and psychologically
weakened by the battle of Vukovar. The huge military forces of the aggressor
were concentrated on Vukovar for three months and that allowed time and
space for the organization of the Croatian Army. For these reasons reasons
Vukovar became a symbol of Croatian resistance to Serbian aggression.

The Western Slavonian battlefield comprised the area of the municipalities
of Novska, Nova Gradiska, Pakrac, Grubisno Polje and Daruvar, and a part of
the area of the Virovitica, Slatina, Orahovica and Pozega municipalities.
According to the Greater Serbian plans, this area was designated to become
the northwestern part of Greater Serbia. The Serbian conquest of the area
from Novska to Virovitica would have meant the fall of the entire region of
Slavonia.

The first Chetnik shooting in Western Slavonia took place in Slatina in
October 1990. Chetniks and several JNA officers attacked the police station
in Pakrac on March 1, captured its weapons and under JNA protection withdrew
to the surrounding hills. At the end of February the assembly of the Pakrac
municipality decided to join the »Krajina«. The planting of mines, shooting
and disorder became more frequent in the months that followed and JNA
involvement intensified. Western Slavonia became an extremely unsafe area,
with the control of Croatian authorities diminishing. In August the Croatian
National Guard resisted the Chetniks and Serbian heavy weapons near Novska,
Nova Gradiska and Slatina. The police station in Stara Gradiska fell in
mid-August. Members of the Guard demolished the bridge over the Struga river
near Nova Varos in order to stop the Banja Luka corps from advancing. A new
front from Okuèani towards Virovitica was opened and the battles there were
constant and fierce. Okuèani was occupied at the beginning of September and
traffic on the motorway was stopped near Vrbovljani.

The Chetniks committed their first mass slaughter in this area, killing 24
people in Cetekovac. Psunj, Papuk and a part of Bilogora were controlled by
Chetniks and the JNA. Since there was a danger that Croatia would be split
into two parts, in October the Croatian Army, reinforced by weapons from the
captured barracks, launched a major offensive in order to liberate Western
Slavonia. By the end of November, the whole municipality of Grubisno Polje
was liberated. After the fall of Vukovar, decisive battles were fought in
Western Slavonia until the cease-fire of December 22, while the Croatian
Army liberated Papuk, Bilogora and a large part of Psunj, causing the
Chetnik formations and the Banja Luka Corps to flee. The liberation
operations of the Croatian Army were stopped when a cease-fire was signed,
and a demarcation line was drawn encompassing Sector West to be controlled
by UNPROFOR. The Chetniks massacred 43 people in Vocin and Hum (Slatina) in
mid-December 1991, and a grave with 20 members of the Guard who had been
captured and killed in the summer of 1991 was excavated in Kosonje at the
end of January 1992.

Croatian Almanac 98/99, The Homeland War
HINA News Agency, Zagreb - Croatia

Profesor.Baltazar

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Aug 19, 2002, 10:12:30 PM8/19/02

Sasha wrote:

> > > Anyway, you lost that war
> > > hopelessly and now you turn that battle into a myth, he, he, he.
> >
> > Marjanovich, Todorovac, sad opet ovaj poremeceni... Ima li itko normalan na ovim grupama?
>
> Cek da vidim sta si ti to pametno pisao ovde:
>
> 1. "I don't know what Krajina is...", bezi nazad u osnovnu skolu.

? Oprosti, ali ja za nikakvu "Krajinu" nisam cuo ni u osnovnoj, ni u srednjoj skoli, a ni na fakultetu.
Taj pojam ne postoji ni u jednom atlasu, ni u jednoj enckilopediji, a jedini koji ga uporno spominje je
neka sacica ljudi srpskog porijekla. Da li je to nesto kao cardak ni na nebu, ni na zemlji?

> 2. "Take a Prozac and breath deeply...", vrlo relevantno za svaku
> diskusiju.

Zavisi od diskusije. Svaka budala moze povuci par postova i citirati izvan konteksta. What's your point?

> 3. "How's the Kosovo campaign going?", beznadezno neinformisan.

Sta ja znam, cujem tu i tamo neke najave oslobodjenja Kosova, pa mislim s obzirom na teske ratne pobjede
raznih srpskih vojski zadnjih godina, mozda nesto i bude.

> Bas mi je zao zbog takvih Hrvata kao sto si ti sto je Tudjman morao da
> pita Perisisca da li sme da napadne Krajinu.

:-))))))))) Urnebesno. Otkud ih samo izvlacis? Daj nam link na website, pa da vidimo kojeg ce
jugo-generala Bush pitati za dozvolu prije napada na Irak.

> Saucestvujem u tvom bolu, ali da znas da nije zdravo neprekidno potiskivati tu informaciju, moze
> da izazove sizofreniju.

Izgleda da ti onda potiskujes jedno 10^99 bitova informacija.

0§вmв Янс Kлс0Ян

unread,

Aug 19, 2002, 10:55:41 PM8/19/02

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0§вmв Янс Kлс0Ян

unread,

Aug 19, 2002, 11:22:14 PM8/19/02

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Barry Marjanovich

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Aug 20, 2002, 1:55:04 AM8/20/02

Vukovar: sad but proud Croatian story

Vjesnik, November 18, 1996

Miroslava Rozankovic

Vukovar: tuzna, ali ponosna hrvatska prica

They call it Croatian Guernica, Hiroshima, Alamo and Stalingrad. Five years
ago it was on top of every news column, every TV station was broadcasting
pictures of the devastation and desperate cries for help were heard.

In 102 days of the systematic destruction, only a few hundred Croatian
soldiers were resisting the attacks of thousands of Serbian soldiers and the
Yugoslav Army's Reservists. And after that? Tens of thousands of destinies
were realised and horrifying tales of destruction told - about 1,300
missing, more than that number of dead, thousands of refugees had to leave
the town that represents Croatian sacrifice. Because of its people, Vukovar,
today, is a pride of Croatian people and a shame of the world.

Crime started in August

On this 18th of November while the Serbs are celebrating the "liberation" of
Vukovar, the whole of Croatia is marking the fifth year since its fall. It
is unrealistic to expect to show the three months sufferings of Vukovar in
chronological order. It is impossible to discuss the final number of
casualties. That is because every Vukovar story is a drama and a story in
itself. Every testimony is horrifying. Soldiers or the mothers of missing
persons? Orphaned children? While listening to their confessions, listeners
become speechless. While Vukovar mothers and survived fighters from the
Trpinjska Road talk, we are left with a petrified unsaid question on our
lips-is something like that really possible?

What really happened on the 18th in Vukovar? Who handed the town over to the
"Yugoslav Peoples Army" and the Chetnicks? There are thousands of pages of
notes on Vukovar. No one knows how many pages, because many of them wrote
about it: colonel Branko Borkovic, refugees, concentration camp prisoners,
doctors, journalists...

What is really the truth about Vukovar? Does the fact that it is impossible
to speak in numbers about this heroic town speak for itself? All the numbers
start with approximates and then end up in the tens, hundreds or
thousands... One thing is true, though. The story about Vukovar will be told
for decades. It has become Croatian history.

The chronology of the Vukovar events starts with the 25th of August 1991,
when the town was attacked from the air with hundreds of the artillery
weapons. Multiple locations were damaged that day and among them, Vukovar
General Hospital. Extremely heavy attacks were launched on Borovo Naselje
with the intention to cut it of from the rest of the town. At the same time
the enemy was attacking Mitnica and Sajmiste, so the defence of Vukovar was
stretched thinner on these dozens of kilometres down the long front-line. In
spite of their casualties, the enemy did not enter the town. On the 14th,
another attack was launched.

Desperate fighting occurred on the Trpinjska Road, Borovo Naselje and
Sajmiste. In seven days of fighting, the enemy managed to connect the army
barracks and the Chetnik stronghold of Petrova Gora and to enter the grain
elevators in Djergaj. In these seven days of battle, Trpinjska Road has
become the graveyard of the enemy tanks and the top news from Croatia. World
media wrote about the incredible resistance of the Croatian defenders. And
the Serbian forces are increasing continuously.

A Yugoslav National Army (JNA) soldier cycles past a burning house during
the attack on Vukovar by JNA troops. The city fell after a three-month
offensive.

In the middle of October a break-through of Croatian Army was prepared to
start from Vinkovci through Marinci towards Vukovar. It was not completed.
At the same time the evacuation of the Vukovar Hospital patients was
immediately required. Only a number of people had been evacuated with the
help of the international humanitarian organisation. In the middle of
November, Croatian defence of Vukovar was cut off in two locations. Survived
defenders were trying to make a break through in smaller groups. Part of
them, along with the civilians were left totally surrounded.

Calvary of the occupation

On the 18th of November, Vukovar was occupied. Its Calvary has started.
Imprisoning, torturing, killings... Civilians are not allowed to leave to
the un-occupied part of Croatia in spite of negotiations and the presence of
the international humanitarian organisations. Then the citizens of Vukovar
were separated and imprisoned in the building of "Vukovar commerce",
"Velepromet"... The enemy is separating Croats, men and women, and the local
Serbs are pointing fingers at the innocent people who were their neighbours
only yesterday. What were they provoked with? With the enormous hatred that
was collected through the years. With one pointing of their hand, many
destinies were sealed.

On the 19th of November, Yugoslav Army took over charge of the Vukovar
Hospital. The Commander in charge was a Yugoslav Army Major, Veselin
Slivancanin, who ordered the imprisonment of two hundred wounded people plus
about one hundred of the civilians. Number of people missing from the
Vukovar Hospital came to aprox. 300. Yugoslav Army took them away on the
20th of November and till this day their whereabouts are still unknown.

Serbian soldiers escorting captured Croatian refugees after the fall of
Vukovar. November 1991. (SRDJAN ILIC).

Just like the thousands missing from the Vukovar region. Because of the
Major Sljivancanin, and his two fellows from the execution team, Radic and
Mrsic, 1,300 mothers are now knocking on the doors of the world. All three
of them are accused war criminals by the Hague International War Crimes
Tribunal. Mothers want to know what happened to their missing children.

Ana, Anuska, Barica, Zlata, Marija, Stefica, Katica... There is no name that
their children aren't called with. Their Calvary never stopped. Yugoslav
side, after 200 negotiations is still giving only drops of information.

One of the Vukovar mothers, Anuska Fitus, we saw in the small room of the
Hotel "International" in Zagreb commemorating the fifth year since her
husband was killed and since her son Karlo is missing. She is surrounded
with photographs and memories. She didn't know what to tell us. If it never
happened to you, you can never know how deep her pain is, you can just
sympathise.

This thin lady, originally Hungarian, has travelled around the world to find
someone who is going to help her to find her son. On three occasions, she
went to Vukovar, but Major Sljivancanin never had time for her. In the 1993,
she went there with Boutros Ghali. This year she, along with 10 more
mothers, light 200 candles on the mass grave site Ovcara.

Vukovar and Croatian Mothers want the truth and they are constantly trying
to prove to the world that their sons cannot disappear just like that. Are
they alive? Where are they? Someone will have to answer for this one day.
Until then they say: "My Son I will see you in Vukovar!"

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----

...and after there was Srebrenica. And again, the World did NOTHING...
...but that is yet another sad and tragic story...
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----

MILE KRAJINA
(Hrvatski guslar i pucki pjesnik)
HRVATSKE POBJEDE

Vukovare, Zivi U Slobodi

Vukovare, zivi u slobodi
Podunavlje Tudman oslobodi,
bez ijednog metka ispaljena,
politika mudra, promisljena.

Vukovar je slobodan hrvatski,
sada vlada zakon demokratski,
bez cetnicke velike Srbije,
nece biti nista kao prije.

Sahovnica na kapama blista,
bez cetnika i bez komunista.
Hrvatska se trobojnica vije,
na obali Dunava k'o prije.

Casno ime Tudman je ostao,
sve izvrsi, sto je obecao.
Vlak slobode u Vukovar krece,
nitko vise ustavit ga nece.

Vracaju se nasi prognanici,
u Vukovar kao pobjednici.
Neka Srbi posteni ostaju,
a zlocinci nek' ne cekaju.

Tko je spreman Hrvatsku priznati,
i zakone njene postovati.
Svatko tko je bez krvavih ruku,
taj ne smeta hrvatskome puku.

Oni sto su narod ubijali,
razarali, zene silovali,
za zlocine oprosti ne vaze,
neka mjesto preko Drine traze.

Mi nemamo oprastati prava,
zbog nevinih hrvatskih zrtava.
Sudit' valja srpske ubojice,
zbog Ovcare, masovne grobnice.

adrian

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Aug 20, 2002, 9:33:27 AM8/20/02

0§вmв Янс Kлс0Ян <ab...@anarchy.gov> wrote in message
news:hbb3mus02dl2l4c73...@4ax.com...

problemi, a?

jesi razmisljao kad o ljecenju?

Barry Marjanovich

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Aug 20, 2002, 2:36:34 PM8/20/02

http://www.vido.ldh.org/images/serbia.jpg

http://www.videodocument.org/nona/VulArc.htm

http://www.vido.ldh.org/images/serbia.jpg

Barry Marjanovich

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Aug 20, 2002, 2:44:26 PM8/20/02

The Vukovar Area in the Past

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----

The Vukovar area has been settled for five thousand years in a continuous
sequence, as witnessed by numerous archaeological sites.

The significant cultures of the Stone age (the neolithic) are those of
Starcevo, Vinca and Sopot. They were based on a settled way of life and the
construction of permanent dwellings. Polished stone weapons were used and
the manufacture of pottery was perfected.

New technologies were introduced with migration and the arrival of new
ethnic groups of Indo-European orgin. The Copper Age began with the Baden,
Kostolac and Vucedol cultures. New forms of manufacture, burial, and belief
were adopted and social relations among people became more complex. The
construction of houses and cult objects reveal a conection with the culture
of the Mediterranean.
Vucedolska golubica

The Vucedol culture is of special significance for the Vukovar area. Its
name comes from the Vucedol site, five kilometers away from Vukovar down the
Danube. This site has been systematically excavated. The finds include
workshops for the processing of copper, characteristic houses (megaron) and
beautiful pottery characterized especially by white stylized ornaments on a
black background.

There are numerous archaeological sites in the Vukovar area from Copper and
Iron Ages testifying to the life of Illyrians and Celts. The necropolis of
Illyrian tombs at Lijeva Bara in Vukovar proves that there was a large
settlement here.

The Romans, during their campaings, reached the Danube in the last decades
before Christ. They built numerous fortresses to fortify their borders
against the barbarian tribes (limes). The significant Roman sites in the
Vukovar area are Cornacum (Sotin), Cuccium (Ilok), and Ulmo (Tovarnik).
There was also important road running along the Danube. The Roman
civilization in this area helped to advance farming, marshland was reclaimed
and the first vineyards were planted.

Great changes were brought about by the fall of Roman civilization, the
great migration of peoples and the expansion of the Avars and the Slavs
starting in the 6th century. The territory between the Danube and the Sava
was the scene of great clashes of interest among the powerful states of that
time. It was during this time that the Croats settled here.

According to the archeological data, the orgins of present-day Vukovar go
back very far. The exceptional topographic position on the high bank of the
Danube at the influx of the vuka was an important defence point. When Prince
Pribina, who was a vassal of Franks, was granted a hundred villages along
the river Vuka in the 9th century, this was the centre of the entire region.
It is recorded that the Hungarians sacked the Vukovo fortress in the early
10th century. A large cemetery has been excavated at Lijeva Bara in Vukovar,
containing numerous artifacts belonging to the Bijelo Brdo culture. The fact
that these finds have been dated back to the 10th and 11th centuries
confirms that there was a large settlement nearby at that time. This was the
time of the Croatian national rulers, when all the Craotian lands from the
Drava to the Adriatic coast were united, especially during the reign of King
Tomislav and King Petar Kresimir IV.

In the written documents that have been preserved, Vukovar was mentioned in
the early 13th century as Valko, Walk, Wolkov, i.e. Vukovo in Croatian.
After the 14th century the Hungarian version of the name, Vukovar, was
increasingly used. At that time Croatia was in a public-law community with
Hungary.

The citizens of Vukovar, like those of neighbouring Ilok, were guardians of
Croatian identity in the area between the Danube and the Sava.

The Vukoavr fortress was strongly built and situated on the high bank of the
Danube. The suburbs were inhabited by tradesmen, merchants and peasants.
Vukovar was granted the status of Royal Borough as early as 1231, and was
one of the earliest Royal Borougs in the Croatian lands. The privileges
protecting the of Vukovar were confirmed by a charter issued by Duke
Koloman.

At that time Vukovar was the seat of the large Zupanija (County) of Vukovo
stretching between the Danube and the Sava. The area was then densely
populated, with numerous fortresses and villages of serfs. With regard to
ecclesiastical matters, the Zupanija of Vukovo was subject to the Catholic
archdiocese in Pecuh. Several monastic orders had their monasteries here.
The most influential of these was the Franciscan order.

In the 14th and 15th centuries numerous aristocratic families reigned over
the Vukovar area. Towards the end of this period the most influential family
were the Ilocki. Nikola Ilocki (i.e. Nicholas of Ilok) was proclaimed the
titular King of Bosnia and minted his own coin. At that time Ilok was a
significant settlement and fortress, and from 1525 on it had its own
municipal statute and coat of arms.

A hundred and fifty years of Turkish rule grought great changes to the
Vukovar area. In their campaign of 1526, led by Sultan Suleiman the
Magnificent, the Turks seized all the fortresses along the Danube, including
Ilok and Vukovar, and then won a great victory at the Battle of Mohacs.
Vukovar lost its strategic significance but remained a significant centre of
commerce and trade on an important transport route. It had several town
quarters, places of worship, public baths, inns and schools. Towards the end
of the Turkish reign it had about 3,000 inhabitants.

At that time Ilok was an important Turkish administrative and military
centre. It was inhabited by Moslems.

During this period the native Chatolic population, Croatian and Hungarian,
suffered grievously; some of them took refuge in the forests, while others
were killed. During the Turkish reign the Franciscans were active here,
gathering together the Catholic population. The depopulated area was settled
by the Vlachs, who were Orthodox, and who arrived as auxiliary Turkish
troops. However, they withdrew together with the Turkish army. Vukovar was
liberated in 1687, and Ilok in 1688.

About fifty inhabited houses were left in Vukovar. The native Croatian
population returned to the devasted Vukovar area, and they were joined by
Croats who were newcomers. Some of the devasted villages were settled by
Orthodox Serbs, who were accepted by the Court in Vienna becouse of the
labour shortage. In the 18th and 19th centuires significant numbers of
Germans, Hungarians, Jews, Ruthenians, Slovaks and Ukrainians also settled
here. Thus this Croatian territory became populated by a mixture of
different ethnic groups.

The Croatian lands were now part of the Habsburg empire. The Empress Maria
Theresa restored the Zupanije of Slavonia in 1745. They were governed by the
Croatian Parliament and the Ban (i.e. Vice-Roy) of Croatia, but were under
Hungarian pressure.

Vukovar was the seat of the large Zupanija of Srijem stretching between the
Danube and the Sava as far as Zemun to the east and as far as Osijek to the
west, with the exception of the east and as far as Osijek to the west, with
the exception of the territory of the Croatian Military Border.

Large estates in Slavonia were granted to or bought by feudal lords. The
Counts Eltz, belonging to the most ancient German aristocracy, became the
owners of the Vukovar estate. Philip Charles Eltz, the archbishop of Meinz
and a German Elector, bought this enormous estate with 35 settlements in
1736. During the following centuries the size of estates was reduced by
agrarian reforms. The entire development of the Vukovar area up to 1945 was
closely connected to the Vukovar Estate of the Eltz family.

At the same time the Ilok estate was in the possession of the Counts
Odescalchi.

In the 18th and 19th centuries Vukovar had the characteristics of an
administrative, economic, transport, and cultural centre. People considered
in the "capital of Srijem".

At the beginning of this period, half of the population was already made up
of tradesmen and merchants. The population was very hard-working; tredes,
crafts, commerce, silk-making and shipbuilding flourished. Goods were
transported to Danubian countries by barge. Numerous guilds were established
early on. Vukovar was the commercial centre of the entire western Srijem
area.

The Vukovar area enjoy exceptionally good farming conditions. In the late
19th century, 80% of population were still earning their living by farming.
The Eltz estate promoted production, influencing small farms as well. Apart
from cereals, which were the main crop, wine-growing was also an important
part of economy. The high-quality wines of Vukovar and Ilok received awards
at international exhibitions. The best milgiving breeds of cows were
introduced and there were also worldfamous horse-farmes here.

From 1840 Vukovar became a regular port of call for steamships on the
Danube, and from 1878 it had a railway line. The Vukovar port was the
largest reloading port in the Croatian lands.

As in other areas of Croatia, especially Slavonia, industry was slow to
develop in Vukovar. Steam engines came into frequent use in the late 19th
century and were used more in farming than in industry. The slow development
of industry was influenced by a lack of capital. A savings bank was founded
in Vukovar in 1861. The firs large industrial plant in Vukovar, the
hemp-spinning mill, started operation as late 1905. Electric power was
introduced in 1909.

The slow development of industry led to a slow rate of population growth.
According to the census in 1900, a quarter of the population of the Vukovar
district lived in the town. Vukovar then had 10,400 inhabitants, of whom
over 4,000 were Croats, 3,500 were Germans, about 1,600 Serbs, 950
Hungarians, etc.

Large industrial plants were established in the period between the two world
wars. The BATA rubber and footwear factory was founded in 1931. Large
textile plants started operating in Vukovar at same time.

Industrialization influenced the growth of the urban population, so that in
1948, according to the census Vukovar had over 17,000 inhabitants.

Due to its importance from the aspect of administration and the economy,
Vukovar developed into an educational, cultural and health centre. Life in
Vukovar in the 18th and 19th centuries resembled life in other European
centres.

There were surgeons in Vukovar as early as the 18th century, but some
Franciscans also treated the sick. The first doctor of medicine opened his
practice in 1763, and a pharmacy was opend in 1791. In the 18th century the
Great Plague of Srijem came to these parts. The small hospital was opened as
late as 1857.

Vukovar had a developed primary school system since 1730. The primary school
developed from the Franciscan school in Old Vukovar. New Vukovar had its own
school. There were also denominational schools for Jewish and Orthodox
children, as well as schools i German and Hungarian. A school for
apprentices was founded in 1886 and a gramar school in 1891.

A printing press was established in Vukovar in 1867. It published the first
Vukovar newspaper, which was in the German language and was called Der
Syrmier Bote. Several printing presses were established later on and
numerous newspapers were published, of which the most noteworthy were the
Sriemski Hrvat and the Sriemske novine, which came out for almost three
decades at the turn of the 20th century.

The earliest literary works from this area were written by the Franciscans
of Vukovar and Ilok. The best-known writers and poets from this area are
Nikola Andric, Julije Benesic and Antun Gustav Matos.

Numerous artists lived and worked in Vukovar. The best known of these were
J.F. Mucke, F.K. Giffinger before the 20th century, and the grammar school
teachers Dragan Melkus, Dragutin Renari], Marijan Detoni.

Vukovar also has its Nobel laureate, Lavoslav Ruzicka. He was born in
Vukovar in the 1887 and won the Nobel Prize for chemistry in 1939.

Vukovar had a highly developed social life modelled after that of other
European cities. In the period up to the First World War there were about 30
clubs in Vukovar - singing, reading, and sports clubs, as well as charity
organizations. They had their reading rooms and organized concerts and
parties. The clubs were often organized along ethnic lines. The first
theatre performance in the Croatian language was held in 1821. It was a play
written by the guardian of the Franciscan Monastery, Grga Cevapovic. The
most influential Croatian club was the "Danube" singing club. The Croatian
Centre, were all cultural events took place, was opend in Vukovar in 1922.

In the period between two world wars, within the framework of the Yugoslav
state, the Vukovar area, like other parts of Croatia, was exposed to a
strong Greater-Serbian pressure. Croatian territory was deliberately
fragmented by territorial divisions into provinces and banovine. The
composition of the population was alterd by interventions of the Yugoslav
state authorities. Land obtained by agrarian reforms was granted to
volunteers from the Salonika front and Serbs from Serbia in general. Even
the way jobs in factories were given was skillfully used to change the
Croatian character of the Vukovar area.

At the beginning of this period there was a strong workers' movement in
Vukovar, due to the unsolved social and ethnic issues in the Yugoslav state
of that time.

In spite of all the pressure of Greater-Serbian policy, a strong Croatian
national consciousness was preserved in Vukovar, and the establishment of
the Croatian Banovina in 1939 was greeted with relief. Unfortunately, the
tragic events of World War II ensued. The ethnic conflicts provoked earlier
now came to a head in Vukovar, as well as in other places. The city did not
suffer any major destruction. The composition of the population changed
considerably, especially due to presecution of the Jews Serbs, and Croats
and the expulsion of Germans towards the end and after the war.

After 1945, in the new Yugoslav state, the whole of Srijem was served from
the territory of Croatia. The Vukovar - Ilok region, which made up the
Vukovar municipality, remained part of Croatia.

In accordance with the socialist system, most property was nationalized and
transformed into state-owned, or, later, socalled socially-owned property.
The Vukovar area was rapidly industrialized, at a rate above the average
compared to the other parts of Croatia. Unfortunately the industry was
narrowly specialized and unattractive, with a large labour force. At the
same time farming remained autarchic. In 1990 about 60% of total population
employed in the economy of the Vukovar region had jobs in industry, while
only 12% had jobs in agriculture, in the so-called social sector.

The government in the socialist Yugoslav state hid behind the Communist idea
and the slogan of "brotherhood and unity". It was, in fact, a unitaristic
and Greater-Serbian regime. All the most important posts in the economy,
politics and government were filled mainly by Serbs. Advocating the Croatian
idea or going to church brought on persecution. The Croatian Centre in
Vukovar was partially demolished and transformed into a civic centre, to
wipe out all trace of it. In the Croatian town of Vukovar, Croats were
second class citizens.

Barry Marjanovich

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Aug 20, 2002, 2:49:11 PM8/20/02

http://www.vukovar.hr/

Barry Marjanovich

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Aug 20, 2002, 5:29:26 PM8/20/02

Memoricide or cultural purification: the war against the libraries of
Croatia

By Vesna Blazina
(vesna....@umontreal.ca)

Head of the collections and official publications departments
Literature and Social Sciences Library
University of Montreal

Source: Documentation et bibliothèques, vol. 42 (1996): 149-164.

Area of Slavonia

The public library of Vinkovci, founded in 1875, has the doubtful
distinction to have been the first library of the war to be burned: its fate
was to be used as message and a warning to all those which dealt with the
cultural heritage. In September 17, 1991, it was reduced to ashes following
two Serbian federal artillery attacks according to the typical scenario:
once the firemen having succeeded in extinguishing fire after the first
attack, second attack was launched to destroy the collections and the
building. This library had 85,000 volumes as well as a rich collection of
manuscripts by the regional authors. Like the majority of the public
libraries in Croatia, it played the role of the culture centre, offering a
whole range of cultural events.

One year later, the services could again be offrered to the users thanks to
a collection of 30.000 volumes collected throughout Croatia and a mobile
library gracefully offered by the city of Vienna in Austria (Erl, 1992;
Phillips, 1992). The librarians everywhere noted an interest increased for
the lectures: the more their cities were attacked, the more people read. The
children, in particular, liked to carry a book to their underground shelters
where they were living during the raids (Ivanisevic, 1994).

The public library of Pakrac, founded in 1919, received direct impacts which
seriously damaged its building. At the time of a cease-fire, the librarians
of the national Library of Croatia in Zagreb organized the evacuation of the
collection of 22,000 volumes to the public library of Bjelovar 80 away km,
getting even damaged by shootings. Certain books were damaged by the rain
before the evacuation.

Several libraries of the university of Osijek were in the line of fire in
1991, their buildings suffering serious damage whereas the majority of the
collections had been stored in safe place. It is the central library of
Agriculture (30,000 volumes, 670 periodical titles) in 1990, which suffered
the most: 80% of the equipment and 40% of the collections perished
(Phillips, 1992). The historical files of the town of Osijek also suffered
from the damage.

The municipal Museum of the city of Vukovar, located in the Eltz family
chateau, and dating from the 18th century, sheltered the prehistoric
collection of Vucedol (32.513 objects). The Museum libraty which had 515
rare volumes (16th to 19th C.) among its 13.000 volumes, was classified as a
national monument. In the bombardment by the Serbo-federal army on August
25, and 26, 1991, the front and the roof were torched. On September 20 and
21 during the attack of heavy artillery on the city, the chateau was again
seriously damaged. Bombarded from the air, the museum took fire and
continued to burn during two days. The attacks continued to September 22 and
28. The books saved from the fire were piled up along the walls in the
corridors.

The city of Vukovar public library, founded in 1947, included/comprised a
central library with 15 branches. It contained a collection of 76,000
volumes, a significant audio-visual documentation as well as bearing the
Vukovariensia collection on the local history. The large picture windows,
which in normal times made this a charming building, located at the edge of
the Danube, presented a serious problem during the war. The employees wanted
to keep the library opened at all costs, that is to say, they could not go
to work in the morning or re-enter the premises in the evening because of
the bombardment.

Marija Brkic, an employee of the library with 35 years of seniority, was
buried under the ruins of her house in October 1991 whereas two other
employees are reported missing. During the autumn 1991, the library was
completely destroyed. " the war came to us with the force of a natural
disaster " says the librarian Antonija Kukuljica. " It is necessary to
protect the collections well before the war. Once it starts, even the human
life is very cheap." (Vjesnik bibliotekara Hrvatske, 1992, p. 76-77). The
most valuable part of the collection was evacuated to safe place before
these events. However, such was not the case with Vukovar.

A similar fate was reserved for the Historical Museum, with the art gallery,
the Bauer art collection (1.357 plates from the 19th and 20th C.), including
the Lavoslav Ruzicka museum commemorative (memoirs of the Nobel Prize for
chemistry in 1939) as well as the libraries in the neighbouring localities
of Vukovar.

The Vukovar Franciscan monastery library which, in addition to 4 incunables,
contained 17.000 volumes published between 15th and 19th C. suffered very
serious damage. The Franciscan Brothers had transported the most valuable
books to the safest wings of the monastery but, considering the importance
of the dég&circts undergone by the building, it is impossible to say which
proportion of the collection could have been saved.

On October 17, 1991, 8000 not-Serb inhabitants of the town of Ilok (Western
Srijem), close to Vukovar, were expelled by force of their homes. Since that
time, the Franciscan father Marko Malovic is the only catholic priest in
this occupied area of Croatia. In spite of the many death threats, he
remains. The gate of their church, St-Jean-of-Capistrano, going back to
1439, was hit by a strong explosion in July 1993. He always gives the mass
by the wooden furnace in which a shiny shell became lodged. In the medieval
bell-tower, father Malovic piled up rare handwritten books, works of art and
baptism and marriage registries, is all that could be saved from some 200
monasteries and catholic churches of the area in ruins. It should be noted
that the religious buildings which were not destroyed during the military
operations in 1991 were the results of later dynamiting. Thus the collective
memory of complete communities were swept away (Hedges, 1996).

On November 18, 1991, the town of Vukovar (50,000 inhabitants), completely
demolished during the three months of siege, was occupied by the
Serbo-federal army. Its historical baroque center dating from 18th C. no
longer exists. Its not-Serb inhabitants were expelled and deported by force.
The 261 wounded in the Vukovar hospital, after being continuously tortured,
were summarily executed and their bodies piled up in a mass grave, in a
neighbouring farm in Ovcara. The Vukovar families continue in the search of
2.862 close relatives taken by force by the Serbian-federal army and are
considered missing. In autumn of 1996, the temporary administration of the
area (UNTAES), opens the possibility of exhumation of this site by the
international experts who should provide a final answer to the families
which have waited for five years.

The librarians of Vukovar are alive in exile, in the free territory of
Croatia, trying to rebuild the collections of their libraries. Already in
1991, the Book Month was dedicated to the gifts of books for the damaged
libraries.

On November 29, 1991, the collections of the municipal Museum of Vukovar,
the collection Bauer, the collection of the Art gallery and the public
library, on the whole 35,000 objets d'art, were transported to Serbia, under
the supervision of the Serbian Ministry of Culture, " for protection ".
According to the available information, the objects of these collections
would have arrived to the art markets of Novi Sad, Belgrade and Paris (the
Council of Europe, 1993, Doc. 6756, p. 18; The Council of Europe, 1994, Doc.
7070, p. 52; Tuttle, 1992; United Nations. Commission of Experts on the
Former Yugoslavia, 1994, Appendix IX, paragraph 60, p. 14). According to
Associated Press reports in November 1993, quoted by Andre Riedlmayer,
Belgrade would have become the largest market of antiquity and objets d'art
in all of Europe (Riedlmayer In Carnegie Endowment for International Peace,
1994).

Barry Marjanovich

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Aug 20, 2002, 5:33:33 PM8/20/02

http://www.burg-eltz.de/e_geschichte_vukovar.html

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Barry Marjanovich

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Aug 20, 2002, 5:43:05 PM8/20/02

T.P., Croatian Information Centre - Zagreb, January 13, 1999.

MILOSEVIC MEDIA MURDERS

ZAGREB, Croatia - A characteristic of totalitarian regimes, among others, is
'killing' the freedom of the press. This is a necessary move so as to keep
the average 'Joe' on the street uninformed about the true events happening
in the country and the world, in connection to, of course, that same
country. One of the biggest experts in 'killing' the freedom of the press
definitely has to be FR Yugoslav president Slobodan Milosevic. This 'Butcher
of the Balkans', as he has been dubbed by the West, has spent the last
decade of the twentieth century suppressing and murdering everything that is
not Serbian and has managed to successfully keep the 'free world' at bay,
making fools of them.

The attacks against the 'terrorists' in Kosovo has been going on for almost
a full year with the West barely taking any major steps to stop the
bloodshed. Yes, there was an activation order (ACTORD) issued by NATO to
attack Yugoslav military targets, but there was not a single expert in
international politics anywhere in the world who actually gave serious
credence to this tough talking move by the Atlantic alliance. Milosevic knew
this very well and took advantage, making a fool of even the best known
cowboy diplomat in the world - Richard Holbrooke.

The butcher and the cowboy came to a 'successful agreement' for the retreat
of Serbian police forces from the Kosovo region. The agreement was so
successful that nobody was satisfied with it and today the agreement is but
a symbolic signature and handshake, as Serbian forces continue to gather and
dig in around Kosovo, while the Kosovo Liberation Army (UCK) continues to
fight for the freedom of their compatriots. In fact, last week the Serbian
police put up roadblocks on all major roads leading to and from Pristina,
the capital of this FR Yugoslav province of ethnic Albanian majority.

As is the case with most countries in the world where the government seems
to be displaced from the reality of real events in the country, Milosevic
quickly realised the power of the press and began to systematically destroy
any and every media organisation or individuals who opposed his totalitarian
dictatorship. It all began near the end of the former Yugoslavia, when it
was illegal to be anything except pro-Yugoslav. If any 'Croatian friendly'
jokes were told on the national TV, editors were sanctioned, while 'Serbian
friendly' jokes, of course, were hilariously funny. Soon editors and
journalists began being removed and even jailed.

Then it happened! Croatia and Slovenia held elections and the communists
lost, as Yugoslavia lost those to republics to the will of the Croatian and
Slovenian people for their independence from tyranny. The world media,
influenced by decades of Serbian dominance and propaganda over the region,
made Croatia out as being the 'bad guy' and called the blood thirsty
aggression against unarmed civilians an 'internal civil conflict'.
Journalists from all over the world flocked to Croatia - as Slovenia was
interesting only for just a few days and there was no real war there - to
cover what proved to be the first of three bloody wars directed by the
antichrist himself: Slobodan Milosevic.

There were some journalists who attempted reporting the real truth, and some
paid for their gall and audacity with their lives. Soon after the war in
Croatia was in full swing, Milosevic used the power of the media to
rabble-rouse in Bosnia & Herzegovina, causing all three sides to take up
arms and the second bloody war erupted, where it was like a 'royal rumble',
as all sides sided with all sides against all sides.

During these two wars 58 journalists lost their lives - 28 in Croatia and 30
in Bosnia & Herzegovina. The best known journalist who was killed was Sinisa
Glavasevic, a Croatian Radio reporter who literally died with a microphone
at his lips, as the Yugoslav Army and Serbian paramilitary forces took the
heroic city of Vukovar and mercilessly slaughtered hundreds of civilians and
hospital patients, among whom was Glavasevic himself - a special treat for
Milosevic's butchers because of his spreading of the truth about the wrath
of the aggressor to the rest of the world.

The third war waged by Milosevic is ongoing and not officially a war. It has
all the characteristics of a war, but Milosevic expertly disguised it behind
a 'police protection operation with no military presence in the area'. The
independent press in Yugoslavia and Serbia quickly recognised the
ridiculousness of these claims, as major artillery was being used to destroy
entire ethnic Kosovo Albanian villages and young Yugoslav Army conscripts
were being sent to Kosovo. There were demonstrations all over Yugoslavia,
which - according to the independent press - were minor and harmless shows
of support for the terrorists in Kosovo. Of course, they were a little more
than that, as thousands of residents took to the streets and began blocking
army barracks. Realising Yugoslav residents have replaced flowers (which
they threw at tanks heading for Vukovar) with stones and barricades,
Milosevic reacted quickly and closed down numerous dailies and periodicals,
as well as banning all foreign radio and television broadcasts in
Yugoslavia.

The eyes of the world were looking at the Kosovo situation which was getting
more and more volatile as time wore on. Holbrooke was 'galloping' between
Pristina and Belgrade. Milosevic agreed to his demands, but 'secretly'
continued his bloodthirsty and totalitarian campaign to 'kill' freedom where
ever it was and whatever it looked like it would be.

Finally it happened! The Kosovo press fell victim to the Milosevic
information embargo and the major Albanian language newspaper was closed
down. Relenting to international pressure, Belgrade allowed the paper to
resume being published, but is keeping a watchful eye on what they are
writing. The main media enemy of the Belgrade regime is definitely the
Kosovo Information Centre (KIC) that recently suffered a major blow from
Belgrade. The general manager of the KIC, Enver Maloku, was assassinated by
unknown gunmen and passed away in hospital on Monday. Maloku was the
editor-in-chief of the Albanian language daily 'Informatori', as well as an
editor for TV Pristina for a number of years. This experienced journalist
and editor was a close colleague of the shadow president of the Kosovo
Albanians, Ibrahim Rugova, and a member of the Presidency of the Democratic
Union of Kosovo. This was not the first attempt on his life. A few months
ago gunmen had him in aim, but were luckily unsuccessful in putting out the
fire of truth and freedom burning Maloku's heart. This time they were
successful and the fight for Maloku is over.

Milosevic continues committing war crimes in the region and nobody opposed
to his dictatorship is safe. Let us hope the West finally puts its money
where its mouth is. Let us hope that there is not a lot of time left for
Milosevic to kill more people. Milosevic has filled cemeteries all over the
former Yugoslavia with his promises and continues to do so in Kosovo. Let us
hope he will be stopped soon, so that the deaths of thousands of innocent
civilians - as well as the deaths of our colleagues, especially Glavasevic
and Maloku - will have a point. May all those deaths caused by Milosevic's
forces have a noble meaning - an end to totalitarianism in Europe and the
establishment of a lasting peace in the region.

Barry Marjanovich

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Aug 20, 2002, 9:23:54 PM8/20/02

M. Flego, 'U Gelesovu dolu masovna grobnica kao i na Ovcari',
Vecernji list, March 22, 1999, p. 4.
MASS GRAVE IN GELESOV DOL JUST LIKE AT OVCARA

VUKOVAR - Vukovar resident Mato Gombovic has been trying to find out the
truth about the fate of his son, Mirko, who's whereabouts were completely
lost after he was taken prisoner at the Vukovar marketplace in 1991. Mato
only knows his son was taken in the direction of Negoslavci. Taken away with
his son were another 11 Croatian defenders. Mato was taken prisoner in
Svetozar Markovic Street after the area around the marketplace fell, just
before the actual fall of Vukovar. He was taken to a basement of a house at
Petrova Gora, where there was a Serbian 'Chetnik' paramilitary force HQ.
When they made peace with the fact they would be executed because their
former neighbour took them to Gelesov Dol, where they were forced to dig
large graves, some Serbian captain decided they would be more useful for
clearing rubble and burying those who were killed.

"There were two pits, one full of bodies, the other empty, and they told us
to dig another one for us next to them," Mato stated, showing our reporters
where the mass graves are located, where there could be, according to his
assessment, up to 150 bodies or as many as there are in Ovcara.

"My son was digging right next to me. Beside him was Jozo Palahinjak and his
nineteen year old son, Zlatko, who also disappeared, beside whom was another
man nicknamed 'Hungarian'. I do not recall the names of the others. A
captain came up to us and ordered us to go with him, with a threatening
warning not to tell anybody what we saw and survived, if we wanted to stay
alive.

After that we worked on clearing rubble out of 'Vuteks' and buried the
deceased in their backyards. "We buried Jozo Buzak in his yard, as was the
case with Mato Vukusic. In Prvomajska Street we found seven Croatian
defenders. I think they were from Herzegovina. They were also buried in a
yard," recalled Gombovic.

According to Mate Gombovic, Croatian defenders were killed and taken to
places of execution by local residents from the market place and Petrova
Gora. The last time he saw his son was in the warehouses of 'Velepromet',
where they were detained and from where they were taken to clear rubble and
bury dead bodies. Mato was taken with a group of prisoners to clear 'Vuteks'
, while Mirko Gombovic, Zlatko Palahinjak and an older man were taken in the
direction of Negoslavci. They have not been seen since.

During the time of the exhumations at New Cemetery in Vukovar, Mato searched
for his son's body in vain. He told the president of the Government
Commission for Detained and Missing Persons, Lieutenant Colonel Ivan Grujic,
about the possibility of the existence of another mass grave at Gelesov Dol,
who went to the said location and added it to the list of future exhumation
sites.

"I swear on my own life that there are mass graves here and in one of them
could be my son. This is why I would like digging to begin as soon as
possible," concluded Gombovic.

***

3. Ljiljana Pandza, 'Nakon velikih razaranja u zrtava za srpske agresije, u
Lovas se postupno vraca zivot U Lovasu ce se do konca travnja obnoviti 70
kuca', Vjesnik, March 22, 1999. LIFE COMES BACK TO LOVAS

LOVAS - The anniversary of the burial of 67 Croatian defenders and
civilians, whose posthumous remains were exhumed from the mass grave at the
local Lovas cemetery, was commemorated by the leaders of this municipality
and returnees by laying of wreaths and lighting of candles at the locations
of the crimes. Namely, during the occupation of Lovas on October 10, 1991,
the Serbian paramilitaries forced 21 Croatian residents into a minefield. On
that occasion, 17 people perished and four were taken to the Sid hospital.
Witnesses to this crime against humanity state that four victims laid in a
trailer of a tractor for three days in front of the hospital, until they
died.

Other residents were killed by the Serbs in their homes between October 10 -
19, 1991. After the exhumation and identification process in Lovas, all the
deceased were buried with dignity on March 21, 1998. "That day must not be
forgotten. We have to remember it every year for the good of all future
Croatian generations, as history is the best teacher of life," stated
municipal head Zeljko Cibra, pointing out that 85 Croats were killed in that
municipality and the fate of another five Croats is still unknown. The
commemorative mass for the 67 victims was served by Rev. Vladimir Delic in
the Lovas Culture Hall.

The local church was first shelled, then burned down during the occupation
of that village in Sirmium in 1991. The remnants of the sacral site was
mined by the Serbs on two more occasions in the following year. Delic stated
that it is still uncertain when and with what funds the church will be
rebuilt.

Out of the planned 100 family homes having fourth to sixth category damages,
last year the Zagreb based company 'Industrogradnja' began work on 70, which
are expected to be completed by April. The other 30 houses are still waiting
for the commencement of renewal. Due to irregular payment, the co-operating
contractors for 'Industrogradnja' stopped their work, which is significantly
slowing down the return of displaced persons (DPs) to Lovas. Approximately
700 out of 1,500 Lovas municipality Croatian DPs have returned to their
homes.

Aside from these sites, the renewal of lower damage category houses is also
underway from last year's cycle, i.e., 103 in Lovas and 30 in Opatovac. In
the past few days, work has begun on 20 third category damaged houses
following the allocation of funds from the Ministry of Renewal and
Development. The German NGO, 'ASB', recently jointed the revitalisation
programme of the Lovas Municipality and plans to renew 19 houses from fourth
to sixth category damages, and another 12 which are not badly damaged.

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Barry Marjanovich

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Aug 20, 2002, 9:57:45 PM8/20/02

M.B., 'Americki analiticari: Vukovar je jos '91. slomio jugoslavensku
vojsku!',

Vjesnik, March 31, 1999.

AMERICAN ANALYSTS: VUKOVAR BROKE YUGOSLAV ARMY BACK IN '91

WASHINGTON - "Vukovar was catastrophic for the Yugoslav Army - a real
horror. It showed them in a very pejorative sense," stated on Tuesday the
Deputy Director for Politics and Military Analysis of the Centre for
Strategic and International Research in Washington, Dan Goure.

In quoting his statements, 'Associated Press' (AP) claims that the Serbian
army presented a sorry picture of itself in all past wars since 1991,
although the USA and NATO are now calling them dangerous enemies.

"In the wars waged in Slovenia, Croatia, and Bosnia-Herzegovina, the
Yugoslav Army overwhelmingly showed it was not capable of launching offence
operations," stated Goure. During the current attacks against Yugoslavia, in
attempting to destroy vital military infrastructure of the Yugoslav Army,
NATO aircraft have only been strongly resisted on a few occasions from
Yugoslav Army antiaircraft defence, according to the text. This confused
military strategists who expected wild "Baghdad style" artillery fire,
according to AP.

The agency also reported on the statement made by American airforce
commander Gen. Michael Ryan, who spoke last week about Serbian anti-aircraft
defence, saying that, "they are a good bunch of guys," and that, "it will
not be easy," for allied aircraft when they encounter them. The naval
commander, Gen. Charles Krulak, agreed with Ryan, telling a Senate board
that it will be "very dangerous."

However, in six days of the operation, only one airplane was downed, a
F-117A 'Stealth'. The Serbs claim they shot down this "invisible" plane,
which even the Iraqis did not manage to do with their formidable airforce.
Still, American officials in the defence ministry refused to comment on the
cause of the downing of the plane.

AP claims that the relatively ineffective defence is no surprise for
analysts who paid attention to Yugoslav Army operations in 1991. The
Yugoslav Army at that time entered the conflict as the fourth strongest
European army. However, the short war in Slovenia in June 1991 ended in
embarrassment inflicted by the newly formed Slovenia Guard.

One year later it occupied one third of Croatia, after resistance from a
small number of volunteers and police who were defending their independent
homeland.

"When the Croats organised their defence in the eastern city of Vukovar, the
Yugoslav Army suffered extensive losses and was stopped from advancing,"
wrote AP, stressing that, "There were numerous victims in the conflict, but
before the defenders were defeated, the city survived three months of the
worst bombing in Europe since WW II." AP further wrote that since 1995
(without mentioning Operation 'Storm') the Yugoslav Army continued to
deteriorate and Yugoslav President Slobodan Milosevic began creating
paramilitary police forces, primarily for his own safety.

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Barry Marjanovich

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Aug 21, 2002, 12:51:30 AM8/21/02

V. Kusin, 'Srpska razaranja hrvtaske bastine pokazala su svu nemoc
UNESCO-vih "plavih stitova"',

Vjesnik, May 17, 1999.

SERBIAN DESTRUCTION OF CROATIAN HERITAGE PROVE UNESCO 'BLUE SHIELD'
HELPLESSNESS

ZAGREB, Croatia - A 'Second Protocol of The Hague Conventions' will be
signed on Monday as an amendment of the Conventions signed in 1954. The
signing will take place to commemorate the 100th anniversary of the first
international peace conference held in The Hague on May 17, 1899. This
protocol that was initiated, among other countries that have suffered a war,
by Croatia, will determine new measures for the protection of cultural
heritage in armed conflicts. The Hague Conventions, according to its First
Protocol that explains its implementation, does not change, rather it adds
to the regulations that generally are obligatory for participants in armed
conflicts.

Back at the UNESCO General Assembly held in 1991, a resolution was accepted
for changes and amendments to the conventions in order to improve mechanisms
for the protection of world cultural and natural heritage. In the wars that
preceded the Liberation war in Croatia - Cambodia, Cyprus and the Gulf War -
it became obvious that the Hague Conventions are being mercilessly violated,
in spite of the First Protocol that explained its implementation. The
example of Croatia differed from its predecessors, because of the absolute
helplessness concerning the implementation of the Hague Conventions for the
protection of cultural heritage. Though all cultural monuments in Croatia
are clearly marked with the blue symbol specified by the Hague Conventions,
that did not protect them from destruction. These symbols actually became
precise JNA targets. That s how Yugoslavia, though it is a signatory of the
Hague Conventions, it violated all the regulations it accepted with their
signature. Without hesitation, Yugoslavia launched the most brutal attacks
against Dubrovnik, which was added to the UNESCO world heritage list a long
time ago.

After the UNESCO resolution was passed, a series of meetings of several
relevant organisations were held (of the ICOM - International Council of
Museums, ICOMOS - International Council on Monuments and Sites, ICA -
International Co-operative Alliance, ICRC - International Committee of the
Red Cross and the International Blue Shield Committee). After these
meetings, preparations for writing a working document for changes to the
Hague Conventions had begun. At these expert meetings at UNESCO, held
between 1995-1998, there were participants from the 20 signatory countries
of the Hague Conventions. Particularly active among the participants was
Croatia, which was represented by the Ministry of Culture. Based on
experience from the Liberation War, during which thousands of cultural and
natural monuments were either damaged or destroyed, Croatia warned about
important shortcomings of conventions, due to which such extreme destruction
of monument heritage happened. Aside from Dubrovnik as an example of world
heritage, Croatia warned about the systematic destruction of all sacral and
other Croatian monuments in occupied regions, which was being carried out in
order to hide the fact that Croatia had an identity in these areas.
Furthermore, Croatia warned about the purposeful destruction of
archaeological zones like Vucedol (Vukovar region) - which was completely
mined - and the theft of works of art, which was best seen in Vukovar, where
entire collections were taken away to Belgrade and Novi Sad.

Though similar incidents were happening in other wars all over the world,
the Croatian example was the clearest example, except that in the other wars
the items stolen were returned. For example, Iraq stole works of art from
the Kuwaiti National Museum, but returned them eight months after the war
was over with the mediation of the United Nations, because both countries
are signatories of the Hague Conventions. Due to the fact that FRY is not
the legal heir to the SFRY, it is also not considered a signatory of the
Hague Conventions and in that sense it does not respect them, hence has no
intention, for now, to return what was stolen.

Before every expert meeting, Croatia sent its opinions and proposals in
written form, after they were co-ordinated between the ministries of
culture, foreign affairs, justice and defence - which were used in writing
the final document. After these expert meetings were held, at the invitation
of the Austrian government, last year in Vienna a preparatory meeting was
held for a Diplomatic Conference at The Hague. The proposal to pass the
Second Protocol - which will be harmonised with numerous new laws from
international humanitarian law - was made to strengthen the Hague
Conventions.

Ninety-three member countries of UNESCO and UN member countries that are not
in UNESCO, of which 73 are signatories of the Hague Conventions,
participated at the Diplomatic Conference. At that meeting Croatia was
represented by a delegation from the foreign and cultural ministries, headed
by Deputy Minister of Culture Branka Sulc. The draft for the Second Protocol
was accepted at this conference, which will be signed in the Hall of Peace
in The Hague.

The Second Protocol of the Hague Conventions explains the methods of
protection of heritage in war and occupied territories. It defines special
protection of monuments by listing them in an international monument
registry. Those monuments of world heritage significance have increased
protection, as well as those important for individual national cultures.
Other heritage is protected by the regulations from the First Protocol. The
Second Protocol determines the protection measures for other items, like
museums, exhibits or archives, which also have to be listed in an
international registry.

Protection of monuments in peacetime is also defined, especially their
maintenance and registration. However, though there was discussion of
stopping the practice of marking monuments with the symbol of the Hague
Conventions, this practice was kept. However, an intergovernmental committee
for the implementation of the Hague Conventions, which will consist of
representatives from the 12 signatory countries, will supervise its
implementation in the field if conflict erupts. All sides in conflicts are
obligated by the Second Protocol to protect heritage, even if it is located
on occupied territory. Namely, the occupying forces have to continue to care
for the monuments, cannot change the uses of museums or tear them down and
are not permitted to move art to their own museums. The occupying force also
are not permitted to carryout any archaeological digs or remove any objects
from archaeological sites. Art sales are forbidden for works found on
occupied territory as well.

Of course, monuments marked with the blue UNESCO shield may not be
destroyed. However, the Hague Convention does provide a 'military use'
institute. That means that a monument being used for military purposes may
be considered a target. The Croatian delegation was lobbying to have the
'military use' institute removed because it considered it incomparable to
the very point of conventions that are aimed at protecting cultural heritage
during armed conflict. However, because only the minority supported this
proposal (Iran, Iraq, Lebanon, Libya and Hungary) the institute was kept in
place and is in the Second Protocol. Despite the shortcomings of keeping the
blue shield symbol to mark cultural monuments and the 'military use'
institute, the Second Protocol will more effectively protect the monument
heritage of individual nations and that which belongs to all of mankind.

Barry Marjanovich

unread,

Aug 21, 2002, 12:34:22 PM8/21/02

http://www.vido.ldh.org/images/serbia.jpg

FOREIGN PRESS BUREAU - AFTERNOON BULLETIN No. 108/99,
June 1, 1999

2955 VICTIMS EXHUMED FROM 117 MASS GRAVES

Mass graves in Ovcara, Vukovar's new cemetery, Lovas, Skabrnja and Berak,
are only some of the 117 mass graves which have been discovered in Croatia
so far, in which Serbian aggressors buried the bodies of their victims -
Croatian soldiers and civilians. Up until now 2955 victims have been exhumed
from these mass graves. Despite this and despite the fact that 1733 people
from Croatia are still missing, not one member of the Serbian ethnic
minority has been held accountable for these atrocities by the International
War Crimes Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia.

The President of the governmental Commission for Missing and Detained
Persons, Colonel Ivan Grujic, stated for Hina that the exhumation of mass
graves in Banovina and western Slavonia would begin shortly. Up until now 46
mass graves have been discovered in Banovina and six in western Slavonia.

Sasha

unread,

Aug 21, 2002, 3:29:32 PM8/21/02

"Profesor.Baltazar" <profesor...@goni.se> wrote in message news:<3D61A58E...@goni.se>...

> Sasha wrote:
>
> > > > Anyway, you lost that war
> > > > hopelessly and now you turn that battle into a myth, he, he, he.
> > >
> > > Marjanovich, Todorovac, sad opet ovaj poremeceni... Ima li itko normalan na ovim grupama?
> >
> > Cek da vidim sta si ti to pametno pisao ovde:
> >
> > 1. "I don't know what Krajina is...", bezi nazad u osnovnu skolu.
>
> ? Oprosti, ali ja za nikakvu "Krajinu" nisam cuo ni u osnovnoj, ni u srednjoj skoli, a ni na fakultetu.
> Taj pojam ne postoji ni u jednom atlasu, ni u jednoj enckilopediji, a jedini koji ga uporno spominje je
> neka sacica ljudi srpskog porijekla. Da li je to nesto kao cardak ni na nebu, ni na zemlji?

Smart pants eh? Nastavi se praviti lud, ja ti tu ne mogu pomoci.

>
> > 2. "Take a Prozac and breath deeply...", vrlo relevantno za svaku
> > diskusiju.
>
> Zavisi od diskusije. Svaka budala moze povuci par postova i citirati izvan konteksta. What's your point?

Take a Prozac and breath deeply.

>
> > 3. "How's the Kosovo campaign going?", beznadezno neinformisan.
>
> Sta ja znam, cujem tu i tamo neke najave oslobodjenja Kosova, pa mislim s obzirom na teske ratne pobjede
> raznih srpskih vojski zadnjih godina, mozda nesto i bude.
>
> > Bas mi je zao zbog takvih Hrvata kao sto si ti sto je Tudjman morao da
> > pita Perisisca da li sme da napadne Krajinu.
>
> :-))))))))) Urnebesno. Otkud ih samo izvlacis? Daj nam link na website, pa da vidimo kojeg ce
> jugo-generala Bush pitati za dozvolu prije napada na Irak.

Kad porastes i razmislis kazace ti se samo. Ja da pretrazujem net za
tebe, ne pada mi napamet. Ako nisi u stanju to sam da zakljucis,
nikakvi linkovi ti nece pomoci. Samo cemo se zaludu prepucavati.
Cinjenice - Mladicu je bilo zabranjeno da gadja preko Save, a kamo li
da je predje, Perisic nije postovao sporazum sa Repiblikom Krajinom da
ce u slucaju napada na istu izvrsiti demonstrativni napad u pravcu
Osjeka. Kolika je bila rezerva Hrvatske vojske u Slavoniji koja je
trebalo da spreci takav jedan pokret JA, 15 ljudi? Vecina raketnih
sistema je povucena iz Republike Krajine nekoliko dana pre Hrvatskog
napada. Gorivo je dotureno dva meseca nakon sto je trebovano i dva
dana pre napada. Ima jos milion sitnih detalja sa kojima si ti svakako
upoznat. Zalosno je to sto te ti detalji nisu naterali da bar za
trenutak stavis prst na celo.

BTW, paralela ti je do bola majke mi. Ajde stani za momenat, razmisli
o svojoj zadnjoj recenici i stidi se malo. Ili mozda stvarno mislis da
Americka i Hrvatska vojna moc mogu da se porede? Reci mi da znam sa
kim imam posla.

>
> > Saucestvujem u tvom bolu, ali da znas da nije zdravo neprekidno potiskivati tu informaciju, moze
> > da izazove sizofreniju.
>
> Izgleda da ti onda potiskujes jedno 10^99 bitova informacija.

Ja brate ne potiskujem nista. Meni je samo muka od tipova kao sto si
ti. Sta si ti makar informativno napisao u svojih zadnjih 100 postova?
Jedino sto umes je da se svadjas i da podjebavas. Uzmi za primer samo
to "nemam pojma sta je to Krajina". Da ti otkrijem tajnu - to je marka
paste za cipele. Jesi li sad srecan?

Mani zaista nije bitno ko je pobedio ili izgubio u tom posranom ratu,
iskreno da ti kazem. Ono sto ne mogu da podnesem u celoj toj prici je
to da je Milosevic ispunio sve svoje ciljeve i u Bosni i u Hrvatskoj i
u Sloveniji preko ledja svih nas. Tudjman kao manja riba uspeo je to
samo u Hrvatskoj. Kako bre vi ljudi mozete da velicate tu jadnu bitku
za Vukovar do koje, da je bilo pameti, nikada nije ni trebalo da
dodje. Kako mozete da velicate taj rat za koji su podjednako krivi i
srpski i hrvatski nacionalisti? Vi ste zaista nenormalni. Sta je bre
to tako velicanstveno u hrvatskoj borbi za nezavisnost? To sto ste
igrali kako je Sloba svirao? To sto vam je bez ikakve potrebe
razruseno pola zemlje, jer ste ko ovce progutali Tudjmanov mamac i
udicu i plovak? Hrvatski Staljingrad - ni manje ni vise. I ti se jos
primas na to. Koliko ti je godina, tli? Ceo taj rat je bio dzinovska
pretstava i sa hrvatske i sa srpske strane, jedino su municija i
lesevi bili pravi.

Sasa Aleksandric

Barry Marjanovich

unread,

Aug 21, 2002, 3:36:24 PM8/21/02

FOREIGN PRESS BUREAU ZAGREB
Afternoon Bulletin - No. 98/99
May 20, 1999

SEVENTH ANNIVERSARY OF MILITARY POLICE ACADEMY

A celebration marking seven years since its establishment was held at
the 'Major Alfred Hill' military police academy on Wednesday. A memorial
tablet in honour of Alfred Hill was unveiled to mark the occasion. Hill
was Commander of the Vukovar Military Police Platoon, who died in battle
at the market ground in Vukovar on October 16, 1991. General-Major Mate
Lausic, Superintendent of the Military Police Command, emphasised the
importance of passing down experience gained during the Liberation War,
which is handed down to military police cadets by their senior
instructors, officers and non-commissioned officers.

PROJECT ON ARCHIVING DOCUMENTARY MATERIAL FROM THE LIBERATION WAR

'The War and Its Consequences' is the title of a project to archive
documentary materials from the Liberation War in Croatia. About 60 hours
of materials dating back to 1991 were preserved as documentary
recordings. Leaders of the project and heads of national archive
institutes warned in Split on Wednesday, that the project is on the
verge of being closed down due to a lack of funds and materials. The
project was initiated by a group of enthusiasts from 'Oblutak' - a
recording studio from Split.

The Split-Dalmatia County Chamber of Commerce is sponsoring the project,
with assistance from a number of national institutions. So far some 60
hours of materials have been recorded from Croatia and parts of
Bosnia-Herzegovina, which will be preserved in the Croatian National
Archive Film Sector.

President of the council in charge of the project Andro Kumaric and
producer Zvonimir Bakovic, warned that a lack of funds and film are
threatening to extinguish the project. Bakovic emphasised that for work
to continue, 30,000 metres of Kodak 16 mm film was required, in order to
complete the recording of destroyed villages, which have a total
different outlook since their reconstruction. Bakovic added that other
things remain to be filmed such as cultural monuments which have been
left in their destroyed state, reconstruction projects and interviews
with soldiers, generals and military units. Five million Croatian kunas
annually would have to be secured for the project to be completed by the
year 2003.

--
Posted via Mailgate.ORG Server - http://www.Mailgate.ORG

Sasha

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Aug 21, 2002, 3:42:49 PM8/21/02

"adrian" <akoz...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<ajr2no$e6s5$1...@as201.hinet.hr>...

> Sasha <a_s...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:24bf1311.0208...@posting.google.com...
>
> > >
> > > Sremski Karlovci (as the name says) are in Srijem, and that is in
> Vojvodina.
> > > not Slavonija.
> >
> > In the times of Baroque when "the plains' Salzburg, little Prague" was
> > profiled, Sremski Karlovci was center of Serbs in Slavonia and
> > Vojvodina. BTW, how about "Srijem is Croatian" NDH's slogan?
>
> I don't know many NDH's slogans. But Srijem was Croatian long before NDH (as
> you just noticed).

Croatian? I wouldn't say so. It was part of Hungarian Kingdom rather.
It was part of Croatia only in WWII. To be honest, i don't remember if
it was supposed to be a part of Banovina Croatia in Kingdom of Yu.

>
> > >
> > > no, it was SKH-SDP
> > > normal people on both "sides" voted for them.
> >
> > My mistake, but were they allowed to take the office?
>
> of course they were, just like SDP took ofice in Rijeka and wherever else
> they won.

I don't think so. I remember something rotten going on in Vukovar. I
will get back to you on this. Rijeka was entirely different story.
After all, Rijeka was not part of Banovina Glavas.

Sasa Aleksandric

Barry Marjanovich

unread,

Aug 21, 2002, 5:02:48 PM8/21/02

http://www.vido.ldh.org/images/serbia.jpg

VJESNIK

GRAVES CRY OUT FOR JUSTICE

What the Serbian and Yugoslav units did during the aggression against
Croatia was a war crime, ethnic cleansing and genocide. This was confirmed
last week when a new mass grave of Croats was discovered in Berak. This
coincided with the ruling of the County Court in Vukovar in the case of the
so-called Sodolovci group. The first five Serbs were sentenced to almost
sixty years in prison after (eight years later) it was established that they
killed, robbed, beat and abused innocent civilians, their former neighbors,
and took them away to camps and prisons. Croatian families, at least those
1,733 who lost their sons and fathers, and similar ones who are still on MIA
lists, are rightly asking themselves once more how it is possible that the
crimes which occurred throughout Croatia were committed by only roughly
twenty persons? Namely, according to the Amnesty Act, the list of potential
war criminals was reduced to only twenty-five names! While they praised the
latest court ruling, believing that the killers of their own loved ones will
be brought to justice, Serbian leader Vojislav Stanimirovic immediately and
hypocritically said it was a ruling against "almost all Serbs in Croatia!"
If nothing else, this is a shameless and politically ill-conceived statement
by a Serbian leader who has the temerity to claim that there are still
Croatian war criminals holding office in the local authorities. Regardless
of all this, it is a fact that not one Serb has answered for these crimes in
The Hague. Stanimirovic and those who share his views should be reminded
that the International Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia (ICTY)
indicted Slobodan Milosevic, the president of a country, on suspicion of war
crimes. Does this not stand in sharp contrast to his interpretation of "a
ruling against almost all Serbs in Croatia?" By analogy, Stanimirovic could
say that the ICTY's indictment of Milosevic is an indictment of almost all
Serbs by the entire world. Being associated with Milosevic is the last thing
Vojislav Stanimirovic needs under these circumstances. Croatia, even when
sentencing war criminals, is under constant outside surveillance. The
absurdity of this situation is obvious: the international community is
wholeheartedly considering the possible expansion of the list of war
criminals, while simultaneously claiming that there is no statute of
limitations on war crimes. This is precisely why Croatia cannot stop
searching for new evidence and the names of those who, at least according to
the latest data, threw the bodies of 2,955 innocent Croats into 117 mass
graves. (Miroslava Rozankovic)

bmarja...@iprimus.ca

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Aug 21, 2002, 5:53:06 PM8/21/02

> http://www.vido.ldh.org/images/serbia.jpg

>GRAVES CRY OUT FOR JUSTICE

sssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss
CCCC Vukovar Hospital Massacre CCCC
SSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS

What Kind Of Monsters Would Torture and Kill Hospital Patients?

SSSSSSERVSSSSSERVSSSSERVSSSERVSSSERVSSSSERVSERVSSSSERVSSSSSERVS
The Calgary Herald, November 10, 1995:

HAGUE, Netherlands- In the Hague, the Yugoslav warcrimes tribunal
directly linked Serbia to Balkan war crimes for the first time on
Thursday, indicting three Serbian army officers in a hospital
massacre in Croatia.

The indictment charged that Serbian soldiers under the command of the
three Serbian army officers - Mile Mrksic, then a Yugoslav colonel
who was in command of the Belgrade-based Guards Brigade; Miroslav Radic,
a captain in command of a special infantry unit in the guards; and
Veselin Sljivancanin, a major serving as a security officer in
the guards - rounded up 261 non-Serb men from the Vukovar Hospital
in the Croatian city of Vukovar, in November 1991. The patients were
dragged out of the hospital, beaten and then shot to death.

sssssservsssssssrvsssservssservsservssssservssservssservsservssservssss
http://www.vido.ldh.org/images/serbia.jpg

----- Posted via NewsOne.Net: Free (anonymous) Usenet News via the Web -----
http://newsone.net/ -- Free reading and anonymous posting to 60,000+ groups
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bmarja...@iprimus.ca

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Aug 21, 2002, 7:35:41 PM8/21/02

http://www.vido.ldh.org/images/serbia.jpg

Hina, ‘Mrksic na Ovcari sviralom davao ritam batinanja’
Vjesnik, June 11, 1999.

MRKSIC USED WHISTLE TO KEEP RHYTHM OF BEATINGS AT OVCARA

VUKOVAR, Croatia - The testimonies of witnesses Franjo Kozul, Pavle Opravic
and Emil Cakalic, were heard on the eighth day of hearings before the Council
of the Vukovar County Court, at the trial against 22 individuals suspected of
committing the crime of genocide and war crimes against the civilian
population, during the occupation in 1991. The presiding judge is Miroslav
Sovanj.

Kozul testified that he was a member of the Vukovar Civil Defence and was
taken into custody in the yard of the ‘Vupik’ company, across from the
‘Velepromet’ warehouse. The separation of people was led by the accused Darko
Fot, who forced the witness to go across the street to the warehouse. While
there, he saw Zoran Stankovic, Mirko Vojnovic, Milos Bulic, Simo Samardzija,
Nenad Zigic and some more people.

Kozul was then taken to the ‘Stajicevo’ Prison Camp, where the accused Marko
Kraguljac, determined which people were to be interrogated and abused. He
also recalled seeing the accused Mirko Vojnovic, on one occasion, standing
inside the ‘Velepromet’ warehouse, holding in his left hand, which was
lowered and against his body, what appeared to be a human head and a bloody
knife in his right hand.

"They were kept in two stables at Stajicevo. The Serbs called them ‘Maksimir’
and ‘Poljud’ (the soccer stadiums in Zagreb and Split). There were 1,842
prisoners in one and 462 in the other stable," stated Kozul, adding that he
also testified at the International Criminal Tribunal for the former
Yugoslavia (ICTY), concerning the events at Stajicevo. While at the ICTY, he
was shown videos that were taken by British troops, where he saw "many
Vukovar residents committing evil acts, some of whom are today peacefully
walking the streets of Vukovar."

Witness Pavle Opravic was taken prisoner in the hospital and spent a number of
days in ‘Velepromet’. First in the warehouse, then in the carpentry facility
of that company, together with another 60 prisoners. Abuse and beatings were
normal and some prisoners, according to Opravic, were taken out, but never
returned.

Witness Emil Cakalic testified that after his arrest in Vukovar, he saw how
some prisoners were forced to pass between two parallel lines of Chetniks,
who slugged them with night-sticks, bats, steal bars and guns. He also
recognised Slavko Dokmanovic, who was indicted by the ICTY, at ‘Velepromet’.
While there, he saw Dokmanovic beating prisoners with his hands and feet,
among whom was Damjan Samardzic, who was badly beaten to the point that he
succumbed to his injuries.

At Ovcara he saw the accused Bozo Latinovic, who came over to him and told
Cakalic that he had just killed a hundred Ustashas. The slaughter at Ovcara
was horrible and lasted for half an hour, stated Cakalic, adding that the
number of those killed was 250, not 200. While there, he saw a former
Yugoslav People’s Army lieutenant colonel, who determined the "rhythm of the
beatings" of the prisoners with a whistle. Later on, while in prison in
Sremska Mitrovica, he recognised that lieutenant colonel from a magazine. The
article read "Commander of the Novi Sad Corps, Lieutenant Colonel Mrksic, who
liberated Vukovar…"

After the witnesses came the reports of expert witnesses, Dr Nikola Mandic and
Dr Mladen Marcikic. Judge Miroslav Sovanj, heard the proposals of the state
prosecutor and defence attorneys, pertaining to summoning some witnesses back
to the witness stand. The trial will continue July 7.

Profesor.Baltazar

unread,

Aug 21, 2002, 8:38:12 PM8/21/02

Sasha wrote:

> Cinjenice - Mladicu je bilo zabranjeno da gadja preko Save, a kamo li
> da je predje, Perisic nije postovao sporazum sa Repiblikom Krajinom da
> ce u slucaju napada na istu izvrsiti demonstrativni napad u pravcu
> Osjeka. Kolika je bila rezerva Hrvatske vojske u Slavoniji koja je
> trebalo da spreci takav jedan pokret JA, 15 ljudi? Vecina raketnih
> sistema je povucena iz Republike Krajine nekoliko dana pre Hrvatskog
> napada. Gorivo je dotureno dva meseca nakon sto je trebovano i dva
> dana pre napada. Ima jos milion sitnih detalja sa kojima si ti svakako
> upoznat. Zalosno je to sto te ti detalji nisu naterali da bar za
> trenutak stavis prst na celo.

Sve sto si gore opisao je cinjenica da je postojao (barem presutan) sporazum izmedju Tudjmana i Milosevica o
nemijesanju Jugo-vojske prilikom hrvatskog oslobadjanja okupiranih podrucja u Lici, Kordunu, zapadnoj
Slavoniji i Knindzistanu. Ako te smijem podsjetiti, u prijasnjim postovima si tvrdio sljedece: "... Tudjman
morao da pita Perisisca da li sme da napadne Krajinu". Ocito si se malo zaletio sa stilskom prabolom pa sad
pokusavas izmigoljiti promasenim izgovorima. Nema veze, shit happens. Vjerojatno ti je jasno da su jedini koga
je netko pitao za ista u ljetu 1995 bili Ameri, a operacija Oluja bila bi izvedena bez obzira na njihovo
zeleno svjetlo. Naravno, nakon povijesnog americkog "da", bilo je daleko lakse odjebati neke evropske zemlje
koje su bile protiv bilo kakve akcije koja bi Srbima nastetila na bilo koji nacin, a i americka avijacijska
pomoc nije bila za baciti. Sve u svemu, "Oluja" bi pomela Knindze ovako ili onako, samo mozda uz puno vise
zrtava na obje strane. Nakon odredjenog vremena, na red bi dosli Vukovar i Baranja.

> BTW, paralela ti je do bola majke mi. Ajde stani za momenat, razmisli
> o svojoj zadnjoj recenici i stidi se malo. Ili mozda stvarno mislis da
> Americka i Hrvatska vojna moc mogu da se porede? Reci mi da znam sa
> kim imam posla.

Cuj, ja znam da Hrvatski i Srpski nisu isti jezici, ali toliko razliciti nisu... Sve sto sam pokusao izvuci iz
tebe bila je jos jedna od tvoji ludjackih konspirativnih teorija, pa ako je Tudjman morao pitati nekakve
Perisice, tko zna, mozda to mora i Bush... Dobro, ajde, mozda ne Bush, ali jedna Francuska ili Velika
Britanija bi sigurno morala pitati za dozvolu, ne?

> Ja brate ne potiskujem nista. Meni je samo muka od tipova kao sto si
> ti. Sta si ti makar informativno napisao u svojih zadnjih 100 postova?

Zasto? Nitko mi nije rekao da sam obavezan pisati informativne clanke po Usenetu. Nije ti dosta Marjanovich?

> Jedino sto umes je da se svadjas i da podjebavas.

Tko te jebe. Nitko te ne tjera da odgovaras.

> Uzmi za primer samo to "nemam pojma sta je to Krajina". Da ti otkrijem tajnu - to je marka
> paste za cipele. Jesi li sad srecan?

Sta ja znam, ja nosim cipele od antilopske koze. Za to mi ne treba pasta.

> Mani zaista nije bitno ko je pobedio ili izgubio u tom posranom ratu,
> iskreno da ti kazem.

To je tvoj stav. Meni, je na primjer bitno. No, na zalost, nitko nije previse pobijedio, samo su svi izgubili,
neki manje, neki vise. Osim Slovenaca, of course.

> Ono sto ne mogu da podnesem u celoj toj prici je
> to da je Milosevic ispunio sve svoje ciljeve i u Bosni i u Hrvatskoj i
> u Sloveniji preko ledja svih nas.

Tko vas jebe, imali ste nekoliko prilika da ga maknete, jos za vrijeme onih vasih jogurt-revolucija, samo ste
bili malo previse zaludjeni nekakvim obecanjima o Srbiji ovdje, Srbiji ondje, CCCC simo, Kosovo tamo, itd...
Sta sad, niste bili ni prvi ni zadnji koji su popusili.

> Tudjman kao manja riba uspeo je to samo u Hrvatskoj.

Uspio je upravo zbog vasih pederluka. Da nije bilo Milosevica i bande, nikad HDZ nebi mogao uspostaviti
diktaturu i pljacku paralelnu Milosevicevoj, a SFRJ se mogla raspasti na miran nacin.

> Kako bre vi ljudi mozete da velicate tu jadnu bitku
> za Vukovar do koje, da je bilo pameti, nikada nije ni trebalo da dodje.

Zbog jednostavnog razloga: rat je Hrvatskoj bio nametnut, i to u trenutku dok je bila daleko ispod razine
naoruzanja JNA. Usprkos svemu, JNA je mozda uspjela razoriti Vukovar, ali to je bilo sve sto je taj jadan
izgovor za vojsku mogao uciniti. Nije bilo nista od zacrtane linije Virovitica-Karlovac-Karlobag, nista od
svrgavanja nezavisne hrvatske vlade, nista od ocuvanja Jugoslavije, nista od zacrtane potpune okupacije Bosne.
Nadalje, bitka za Vukovar je simbol stradanja novo nastale drzave, te politicka prekretnica nakon koje je
ubrzo stiglo medjunarodno prznanje. Za obicne Hrvate koji nisu sudjelovali u prljavim HDZ igrama, Vukovar je
bio grad mucenik i motivacija za konacno oslobodjenje.

> Kako mozete da velicate taj rat za koji su podjednako krivi i
> srpski i hrvatski nacionalisti?

Zbog jednostavnog razloga: rat je ono sto je omogucilo konacnu nezavisnost Hrvatske, nakon stotina godina
camljenja pod Talijanima, Madjarima, Austrijancima, Srbima... Prosjecan Hrvat, ukljucivsi i mene, shvatio je
nezavisnost ne kao cilj, vec kao sredstvo do cilja - simbolicke i realne slobode, pune demokracije, vladavine
zakona, pro-evropske orijentacije, te boljeg zivota. Druga je stvar sto se za sad malo od toga ostvarilo.
Balkansko-slavenski geni, jebi ga, kakav narod, takvi i politicari. Stavila krava sminku, i kod vas i kod nas,
to je sve.

> Vi ste zaista nenormalni. Sta je bre
> to tako velicanstveno u hrvatskoj borbi za nezavisnost? To sto ste
> igrali kako je Sloba svirao?

Druga igra nije se ni mogla igrati. Sta bi ti htio, da su svi digli ruke i u kurac, nek bude Srbija do Kupe?
Ne pricaj gluposti. Ako je tko igrao kako je Milosevic svirao, to ste bili vi. Srbi su platili daleko najvecu
cijenu, osim mozda Bosanaca.

> To sto vam je bez ikakve potrebe
> razruseno pola zemlje, jer ste ko ovce progutali Tudjmanov mamac i
> udicu i plovak? Hrvatski Staljingrad - ni manje ni vise. I ti se jos
> primas na to. Koliko ti je godina, tli? Ceo taj rat je bio dzinovska
> pretstava i sa hrvatske i sa srpske strane, jedino su municija i
> lesevi bili pravi.

Nije bas tako, sine. Ima mozda dosta istine u tome, ali nije sve ni kako se tebi cini.

bmarja...@iprimus.ca

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Aug 21, 2002, 9:19:16 PM8/21/02

http://www.vido.ldh.org/images/serbia.jpg

Vecernji list, May 26, 1999.

DEFENDANT FEELS NO GUILT, THOUGH WITNESS SAW HIM SLAUGHTERING PEOPLE

VUKOVAR, Croatia - Yesterday the trial against 21 Serbs and one Croat from
Vukovar began before the County Court Council in Vukovar, under the
chairmanship of judge Miroslav Sovanj. The defendants are accused of
committing war crimes against civilians and military prisoners of war after
the fall of Vukovar.

The indictment was issued against Stevan Curnic alias Cigan (35), Damir Sireta
‘Sico’ (36), Radivoj Jakovljevic alias Frizider (43), Simo Samardzija (47),
Nenad Zigic (58), Milos Bulic alias Bulidja (61), Bozo Latinovic (42),
Sladjana Korda (26), Milan Samardzija (53), Petar Rasic (58), Stanko
Vujanovic (40), Mirko Vojinovic (38), Mihajlo Katalina (52), Milan Ikac (46),
Darko Foto (40, Marko Crevar (35), Stanimir Avramovic (51), Goran Lancuzanin
(28), Marko Kraguljac (53), Goran Mugosa Kustar (32), Zoran Stankovic Kesega
(39) and Stevan Vladisavljevic (53). All of the accused are out of the reach
of Croatian judicial authorities because they are fugitives, except Stevan
Curnic, who was brought to the trial from the Osijek Detention Centre, where
he has been in custody since May 7, 1998.

After judge Miroslav Sovanj read the decision of the court regarding the
rejection of a motion made my the attorney of one of the accused about
dismissing the president of the court and judges council, State Attorney
Biserka Trenski read the indictment written out on 16 densely typed pages.
The accused have been charged as follows: during November and December 1991,
in the Vukovar vicinity, at the Stajicevo Prison Camp and the Srijemska
Mitrovica Prison, separated the non-Serbian residents, abused, beat and
looted civilians and prisoners, as well as sending them to prison camps and
prisons in Serbia.

Stevan Curnic has been charged with killing Zlatko Rajkovic with an automatic
rifle, slaughtering Zoran Bajic, shooting at the legs of Stipan Lucic,
killing Ekrem Nakicevic with the assistance of Damir Sireta, taking prisoners
off of busses and beating them with a wooden bat, as well as taking prisoners
from the ‘Velepromet’ warehouse to be executed. After the charges were read,
Curnic stated he understood the charges read to him, but that he feels no
guilt for any of the charges against him. He did, however, admit to being a
Yugoslav People’s Army (JNA) reservist, claiming that he even prevented
paramilitary personnel from committing crimes against civilians and
prisoners.

Witness Silvestar Funda described his being taken into captivity,
interrogation and stay at the Stajicevo Prison Camp. Funda repeated his
statement from the investigative procedure, i.e. that he saw Curnic cut Zoran
Bajic’s throat with a knife, which caused the victim’s death. He identified
the defendant as the person in a JNA uniform that took prisoners to their
interrogations at the warehouses of ‘Stolarija’ and ‘Velepromet’.

Curnic asked the witness to describe what kind of uniform he was wearing and
what kind of wooden bat he was being beaten with. Funda became upset and
replied: "you know very well what a JNA uniform looks like and you know the
bat was white and you know all too well what kind of belts you were wearing
because you were the one to take us for interrogation!"

After the witness gave his statement, judge Sovanj called a recess until
Wednesday at 9:30 CET.

Before the trial began, on the steps of the courthouse, defendant Curnic and
witness Funda met face to face. Funda yelled out at him: "did you know they
exhumed and identified Zoran Bajic?!" The defendant hesitated and stopped for
a moment, but the bailiffs ordered him to keep walking.

Funda told journalists that wanted Curnic to know that Bajlic, who Curnic
slaughtered, was found and buried. The surprise on Curnic’s face testifies
that he never expected the witness of this murder to survive the Stajicevo
Prison Camp and to live to testify against him.

In the courtroom, on a screen above the judge’s seat, was a live broadcast of
the trial proceedings over the Internet. Hence everybody in the courthouse
except the judge and defendant, who were facing the courtroom, could watch
the broadcast. The proceedings were aired via Internet and Croatian Radio
Vukovar listeners could also follow the proceedings live on the air. The
local TV Vinkovci was not able to establish a link.

bmarja...@iprimus.ca

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Aug 21, 2002, 11:04:35 PM8/21/02

>http://www.vido.ldh.org/images/serbia.jpg

VUKOVAR COUNTY COURT SENTENCES WAR CRIMES CONVICTS

VUKOVAR, Croatia, June 25, 1999 (Hina) - The Vukovar County Court on Friday
sentenced to 12 to 15 years in prison seven persons convicted of war crimes
against civilians during the Serb aggression on Croatia.

Milo Vukelic Cita, 36, who was the only one attending the trial, Nedeljko
Markovic, 29, Dragan Bogdanovic, 27, Miroslav Matijevic, 29, Branko Susic,
34, Miroslav Bogdanovic, 29, and Pero Pjevaljcic Crnogorac, who were tried in
absentia, were found guilty for the murder of Ivan Kunc on September 10,
1991, in Lipovaca near Vukovar.

As members of the reserve corps of the former Yugoslav People's Army, the
seven took Croatian Ivan Kunc from the premises of the Local Community Centre
in Lipovaca to a cemetery and then to the Bobota canal.

Pjevaljcic, according to witnesses, was at the time commander of the reserve
corps, and ordered Kunc to step forward. He then told the others to shoot
Kunc, and they complied.

Kunc then fell into the canal, and Pjevaljcic shot at him again.

Vukelic told the court he did not shoot, which Pjevaljcic reprimanded him for
when he realised Vukelic's gun barrel was cold.

Vukelic, who was also convicted of illegal possession of firearms, received a
12 year and three months sentence in prison.

Pjevaljcic was sentenced to 15 years in prison, and the others to 12 years in
prison.

All the convicts have the right to appeal the sentence.

adrian

unread,

Aug 22, 2002, 9:18:45 AM8/22/02

Sasha <a_s...@hotmail.com> wrote in message

news:24bf1311.02082...@posting.google.com...

> Kad porastes i razmislis kazace ti se samo. Ja da pretrazujem net za
> tebe, ne pada mi napamet. Ako nisi u stanju to sam da zakljucis,
> nikakvi linkovi ti nece pomoci. Samo cemo se zaludu prepucavati.
> Cinjenice - Mladicu je bilo zabranjeno da gadja preko Save, a kamo li
> da je predje, Perisic nije postovao sporazum sa Repiblikom Krajinom da
> ce u slucaju napada na istu izvrsiti demonstrativni napad u pravcu
> Osjeka. Kolika je bila rezerva Hrvatske vojske u Slavoniji koja je
> trebalo da spreci takav jedan pokret JA, 15 ljudi?

evo cisto informativno, u istocnoj slavoniji je, vrlo aktivno, napad iz
srbije cekalo 100 000 ljudi. (polovica ukupno mobiliziranih snaga za oluju).
imali su dovoljno artiljerije da sravne s zemljom sve izmedju vinkovaca i
vukovara za pola sata. neki mamlazi ("vojska krajine") su krenuli na
vinkovce i za pola sata su moljakali nase da prestanu pucati.

ako pogledas da je manje od dvije tisuce ljudi u vukovaru 91e drzalo
stotinjak tisuca vojnika jna + tko zna koliko domacih ceda tri mjeseca sto
mislis sto bi vojska srbije postigla 95?

adrian

unread,

Aug 22, 2002, 9:25:46 AM8/22/02

Sasha <a_s...@hotmail.com> wrote in message

news:24bf1311.02082...@posting.google.com...

> > >
> > > In the times of Baroque when "the plains' Salzburg, little Prague" was
> > > profiled, Sremski Karlovci was center of Serbs in Slavonia and
> > > Vojvodina. BTW, how about "Srijem is Croatian" NDH's slogan?
> >
> > I don't know many NDH's slogans. But Srijem was Croatian long before NDH
(as
> > you just noticed).
>
> Croatian? I wouldn't say so. It was part of Hungarian Kingdom rather.
> It was part of Croatia only in WWII. To be honest, i don't remember if
> it was supposed to be a part of Banovina Croatia in Kingdom of Yu.

srijem je bio dio banovine. dakle postojalo je priznanje srba da je srijem
hrvatski. inace nakon raspustanja vojne krajine srijem je bio pripojen
trojednoj kraljevini, tj hrvatskoj.

> I don't think so. I remember something rotten going on in Vukovar. I
> will get back to you on this. Rijeka was entirely different story.
> After all, Rijeka was not part of Banovina Glavas.

vukovar nije bio dio banovine glavas. doticni nije imao previse veze s
vukovarom, banovinom mercep (ako bas hoces). a to "rotten" cega se ti sjecas
se po tv beograd i ostalim rezimskim (citaj svim) glasilima u srbiji
desavalo u cijeloj sloveniji, hrvatskoj, bosni, makedoniji, kosovu, crnoj
gori, dakle svud gdje su negativci radili na stetu srpske nejaci

Sasha

unread,

Aug 22, 2002, 5:18:22 PM8/22/02

"Profesor.Baltazar" <profesor...@goni.se> wrote in message news:<3D643275...@goni.se>...

> Sasha wrote:
>
> > Cinjenice - Mladicu je bilo zabranjeno da gadja preko Save, a kamo li
> > da je predje, Perisic nije postovao sporazum sa Repiblikom Krajinom da
> > ce u slucaju napada na istu izvrsiti demonstrativni napad u pravcu
> > Osjeka. Kolika je bila rezerva Hrvatske vojske u Slavoniji koja je
> > trebalo da spreci takav jedan pokret JA, 15 ljudi? Vecina raketnih
> > sistema je povucena iz Republike Krajine nekoliko dana pre Hrvatskog
> > napada. Gorivo je dotureno dva meseca nakon sto je trebovano i dva
> > dana pre napada. Ima jos milion sitnih detalja sa kojima si ti svakako
> > upoznat. Zalosno je to sto te ti detalji nisu naterali da bar za
> > trenutak stavis prst na celo.
>
> Sve sto si gore opisao je cinjenica da je postojao (barem presutan) sporazum izmedju Tudjmana i Milosevica o
> nemijesanju Jugo-vojske prilikom hrvatskog oslobadjanja okupiranih podrucja u Lici, Kordunu, zapadnoj
> Slavoniji i Knindzistanu. Ako te smijem podsjetiti, u prijasnjim postovima si tvrdio sljedece: "... Tudjman
> morao da pita Perisisca da li sme da napadne Krajinu". Ocito si se malo zaletio sa stilskom prabolom pa sad
> pokusavas izmigoljiti promasenim izgovorima. Nema veze, shit happens.

Nisam se ja nista zaleteo. Prvo i prvo, daleko od toga da je sporazum
bio precutan. Na vise mesta sam naisao na (doduse rekla-kazala)
tvrdnje da je sporazum i te kako bio konkretan ukljucujuci i potpisana
dokumenta. Dalje, prilicno je sigurno da je Tudjman trazio od
Amerikanaca garancije da ce u slucaju akcije HV JA ostati pasivna. Da
li je i to bilo ukljuceno u gornje sporazume ne mogu tvrditi, jer
nisam naisao na takav podatak. S obzirom na to kako se situacija
odvijala na terenu potpuno sam ubedjen da su sve te tvrdnje tacne.
Prema tome, bilo da je pitao direktno ili preko Amerikanaca, Tudjman
je trazio dozvolu Perisica da napadne Krajinu.

> ... Sve u svemu, "Oluja" bi pomela Knindze ovako ili onako, samo mozda uz puno vise
> zrtava na obje strane.

Naravno da bi ih pomela. Bez municije, goriva, strategijskog zaledja,
rezerve i svega ostalog sto je pretpostavka uspesne odbrane, Srbi iz
Krajine nisu imali sanse. Jedinin nacin na koji se Krajina mogla
braniti bio je napad JA u pravcu Osjeka, s obzirom da je Republika
Srpska imala svojih problema.

>
> > BTW, paralela ti je do bola majke mi. Ajde stani za momenat, razmisli
> > o svojoj zadnjoj recenici i stidi se malo. Ili mozda stvarno mislis da
> > Americka i Hrvatska vojna moc mogu da se porede? Reci mi da znam sa
> > kim imam posla.
>
> Cuj, ja znam da Hrvatski i Srpski nisu isti jezici, ali toliko razliciti nisu... Sve sto sam pokusao izvuci iz
> tebe bila je jos jedna od tvoji ludjackih konspirativnih teorija, pa ako je Tudjman morao pitati nekakve
> Perisice, tko zna, mozda to mora i Bush... Dobro, ajde, mozda ne Bush, ali jedna Francuska ili Velika
> Britanija bi sigurno morala pitati za dozvolu, ne?

So, hrvatska vojna sila se moze porediti sa Francuskom i Britanskom.
Da ti ne bude malo muka? Kakve konspirativne teorije?

> > Jedino sto umes je da se svadjas i da podjebavas.
>
> Tko te jebe. Nitko te ne tjera da odgovaras.

Da te potsetim, ti si odgovorio meni a ne ja tebi, i pri tom si me
nazvao poremecenim.

>
> > Uzmi za primer samo to "nemam pojma sta je to Krajina". Da ti otkrijem tajnu - to je marka
> > paste za cipele. Jesi li sad srecan?
>
> Sta ja znam, ja nosim cipele od antilopske koze. Za to mi ne treba pasta.

Bar da ti je odgovor duhovit, nego nije.

>
> > Mani zaista nije bitno ko je pobedio ili izgubio u tom posranom ratu,
> > iskreno da ti kazem.
>
> To je tvoj stav. Meni, je na primjer bitno. No, na zalost, nitko nije previse pobijedio, samo su svi izgubili,
> neki manje, neki vise. Osim Slovenaca, of course.

Meni nije bitno, posto je ceo rat bio fake.

>
> > Ono sto ne mogu da podnesem u celoj toj prici je
> > to da je Milosevic ispunio sve svoje ciljeve i u Bosni i u Hrvatskoj i
> > u Sloveniji preko ledja svih nas.
>
> Tko vas jebe, imali ste nekoliko prilika da ga maknete, jos za vrijeme onih vasih jogurt-revolucija, samo ste
> bili malo previse zaludjeni nekakvim obecanjima o Srbiji ovdje, Srbiji ondje, CCCC simo, Kosovo tamo, itd...
> Sta sad, niste bili ni prvi ni zadnji koji su popusili.

Koji mi? Ja nisam mi (nemam obicaj da si persiram) i nisam imao
priliku da ga maknem nikada. Posteno i uporno sam glasao protiv rata,
ali dzabe. Cak sam se vijao sa pandurima po ulicama moga grada. Nesto
se ne secam da je takvog vijanja bilo po Zagrebu, ili bar po
Varazdinu. Prema tome, nemoj da se vadis na Slobu i/ili na stanovnike
Jugoslavije.

>
> > Tudjman kao manja riba uspeo je to samo u Hrvatskoj.
>
> Uspio je upravo zbog vasih pederluka. Da nije bilo Milosevica i bande, nikad HDZ nebi mogao uspostaviti
> diktaturu i pljacku paralelnu Milosevicevoj, a SFRJ se mogla raspasti na miran nacin.

Ma da, uvek je neko drugi kriv. Mislim da moram da te ispravim, da
nije bilo Srba u Hrvatskoj, HDZ nikad ne bi.... Patologija vecine
Hrvata spram Srba iz Hrvatske je opste poznata stvar. Ti si samo jedna
slicica iz tog mozaika.

>
> > Kako bre vi ljudi mozete da velicate tu jadnu bitku
> > za Vukovar do koje, da je bilo pameti, nikada nije ni trebalo da dodje.
>
> Zbog jednostavnog razloga: rat je Hrvatskoj bio nametnut, i to u trenutku dok je bila daleko ispod razine
> naoruzanja JNA. Usprkos svemu, JNA je mozda uspjela razoriti Vukovar, ali to je bilo sve sto je taj jadan
> izgovor za vojsku mogao uciniti. Nije bilo nista od zacrtane linije Virovitica-Karlovac-Karlobag, nista od
> svrgavanja nezavisne hrvatske vlade, nista od ocuvanja Jugoslavije, nista od zacrtane potpune okupacije Bosne.

Kakva bre zacrtana linija, kakav Karlobag, kakvo svrgavanje vlade,
kakva potpuna okupacija Bosne, o cemu ti pricas? Cime li vas to
pumpaju preko tih vasih sretstava priopcenja. Stvar je mnogo
prozaicnija. Sloba je usao u rat u Hrvatskoj da bi namakao materijal
za ucenjivanje u Bosni a ako ucari nesto preko toga, jos bolje. Jedini
koji je imao ambicija da menja vlast u Hrvatskoj i/ili ocuva
Jugoslaviju je bio Kadijevic, a i on samo kratko vremena. Kada je
ustanovio da ni zapad ni Rusija ne podrzavaju njegov planirani drzavni
udar (hteo je da pohapsi sve, ukljucujuci i Slobu), odustao je od
njega i prikazao "Spegelj loce rujno vino i lamentira o doprinosu
kasikare porodicnom zivotu JNA oficira" preko TVa. Samo cu ti svratiti
pozornost na intervju koji je ideolog i potpredsednik Slobinog SPSa,
akademik Mihajlo Markovic dao casopisu Duga jos dok se rat samo
nazirao, a u kome doslovno kaze da bi za Srbe iz Hrvatske i Bosanske
krajine najbolje bilo da se presele blize Drini ili u Srbiju. Moj
komentar kad sam to procitao je bio "Vidi budalu sta lupeta", kad ono
bum, za par godina eto Srba iz Hrvatske na putu ka Drini. No i to je
verovatno poluluda teorija zavere.

> Nadalje, bitka za Vukovar je simbol stradanja novo nastale drzave, te politicka prekretnica nakon koje je
> ubrzo stiglo medjunarodno prznanje. Za obicne Hrvate koji nisu sudjelovali u prljavim HDZ igrama, Vukovar je
> bio grad mucenik i motivacija za konacno oslobodjenje.

Vidi sad, Vukovar grad mucenik, simbol stradanja, motivacija za
oslobodjenje - je li, da nisi ti propagandista po zanimanju? Veljko
Bulajic bi ti pozavideo na ovoj tvojoj formulaciji, a mislim da bi i
Bata Zivojinovic rado poginu sa tim recima na usnama. Jos samo fale
pionirske marame pa da se rasplacem.

>
> > Kako mozete da velicate taj rat za koji su podjednako krivi i
> > srpski i hrvatski nacionalisti?
>
> Zbog jednostavnog razloga: rat je ono sto je omogucilo konacnu nezavisnost Hrvatske, nakon stotina godina
> camljenja pod Talijanima, Madjarima, Austrijancima, Srbima... Prosjecan Hrvat, ukljucivsi i mene, shvatio je
> nezavisnost ne kao cilj, vec kao sredstvo do cilja - simbolicke i realne slobode, pune demokracije, vladavine
> zakona, pro-evropske orijentacije, te boljeg zivota. Druga je stvar sto se za sad malo od toga ostvarilo.
> Balkansko-slavenski geni, jebi ga, kakav narod, takvi i politicari. Stavila krava sminku, i kod vas i kod nas,
> to je sve.

Znas sta, koliko su Hrvati camili pod Srbima u SFRJ, toliko su Srbi
camili pod Hratima. Nije ti to neki argument. Nikakve hitne potreba za
prekonocnom nezavisnoscu nije bilo. Ja licno verujem da je za rat
kriva Tudjmanova krstenica - bio je toliko mator da mu se zurilo da
pozavrsava sve sitnice pre nego sto umre. Uz to je verovatno patio od
blage paranoje razvijene nakog sto je desetine godina bio izlozen
prisluskivanju i pracenju. Par dinamitiranja ovde, nekoliko pucanja
nocu u vazduh tamo, jedno ubistvo tu, jedno otpustanje tamo, par
natuknica o "NDH domovini nasoj miloj", dve tri razbijene nadgrobne
ploce i eto rata. Dodaj u tu kasu Hrvatsku patologiju prema Srbima iz
Hrvatske (radje imam zemlju razrusenu i Tudjmana na vlasti, nego sto
cu ista potpisati sa Srbima) i evo nam ga Vukovar.

Mnogi Hrvati sa kojima sam diskutovao ovih godina nisu mi verovali kad
sam im govorio da je moj prvi komsija u Beogradu pobegao iz Osjeka jos
davne 1986 nakon sto mu je tri noci za redom neko ispaljivao (i on je
znao ko - uzalud naravno) po par rafal u kucu. Koliko god oni meni
"lazes" dzaba im - istina boli, ali i dalje ostaje istina.

>
> > Vi ste zaista nenormalni. Sta je bre
> > to tako velicanstveno u hrvatskoj borbi za nezavisnost? To sto ste
> > igrali kako je Sloba svirao?
>
> Druga igra nije se ni mogla igrati. Sta bi ti htio, da su svi digli ruke i u kurac, nek bude Srbija do Kupe?
> Ne pricaj gluposti. Ako je tko igrao kako je Milosevic svirao, to ste bili vi. Srbi su platili daleko najvecu
> cijenu, osim mozda Bosanaca.

Koja bre Srbija do Kupe. Da su se Hrvati bunili protiv HDZa koliko su
se npr. samo Beogradjani bunili protiv Slobe, drugu bi mi pricu
pricali danas. Secas li se tenkova ispred Savezne Skupstine? Nego nije
imao ko, svi u Zagrebu su bili zauzeti kupovinom "Cistog Croatskog
zraka" u konzervama. Bilo je toliko prostora za politicko
manevrisanje, ali nije bilo nikog sa vase strane sa kojim se moglo
razgovarati. Nikad necu zaboraviti kako se Mesic podrugljivo smejao
Vuku Draskovicu kao bolesniku kad je ovaj dosao kod njega sa predlogom
kako da se izbegne rat. Racan ko Racan, nije ni smrdeo ni mirisao.
Navedi mi bar nekog iz Hrvatske koji je bio za miran suzivot? Jedini
koji mi pada na pamet je Stipe Suvar, dobro te je zivu glavu izneo
zbog toga. Well, poklonili ste poverenje senilnom megalomanu koji je
postavio na vlast frustrirane referente ONO i DSZ i ponekog osvete
zeljnog ustasu. Sve ostalo je istorija.

>
> > To sto vam je bez ikakve potrebe
> > razruseno pola zemlje, jer ste ko ovce progutali Tudjmanov mamac i
> > udicu i plovak? Hrvatski Staljingrad - ni manje ni vise. I ti se jos
> > primas na to. Koliko ti je godina, tli? Ceo taj rat je bio dzinovska
> > pretstava i sa hrvatske i sa srpske strane, jedino su municija i
> > lesevi bili pravi.
>
> Nije bas tako, sine. Ima mozda dosta istine u tome, ali nije sve ni kako se tebi cini.

Rat je bio fake. Sloba nije imao ni namere ni ciljeve koji mu se
pripisuju, Tudjman nije bio primoran da se lati oruzja, kako tvrdi
zvanicna hrvatska ideologija, Vukovar je bio sidekick job JA - Sloba
je postigao sta je zeleo u Hrvatskoj nakog 5 dana rata, Hrvati na
vlasti su usli u rat da bi napravili Cistu ili bar Polucistu Nasu i
nista velicanstveno tu nema, vecina YU ucesnika je htela da ih spreci
u tome. Otprilike 0,1% sa nase strane imalo je za cilj stvaranje te
"Velike Srbije", baba-roge oko koje se u medjuvremenu citava
industrija formirala. Od loseg oca i jos gore majke, ni moja ni tvoja
drzava posle svega toga ne mogu izgledati bolje.

Sasa Aleksandric

Sasha

unread,

Aug 22, 2002, 5:25:19 PM8/22/02

"adrian" <akoz...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<ajr2to$egqj$1...@as201.hinet.hr>...

> Sasha <a_s...@hotmail.com> wrote in message

> news:24bf1311.02081...@posting.google.com...
> > mha...@softhome.net (Mir Harven) wrote in message
> news:<3d590cac...@news.tel.hr>...
> > > http://www.washtimes.com/world/20020811-24444994.htm
> > >
> > > quoted without permission
> > >
> >
> > <rubbish snipped out>
> >
> > Wow, Vukovar is "Croatia's Stalingrad". It is interesting to watch a
> > creation of national mythology while it transpires. Vukovar was only
> > sidekick job of JA,
>
> opet malo da te ispravljam
> nije sidekick job neko side job. vidi se da si ucio engleski iz stripova.

Ako moze sidekick Bob, onda valjda moze i sidekick job :)

>
> >
> > Of course that more shells fell on Vukovar in 1991 then during the
> > entire WWII since there was no battle for Vukovar in WWII. Correct me
> > if i am wrong but i bet no more then one shell (maybe two?) was fired
> > off on Vukovar in that period.
>
> srijemski front je bio kod Vukovara. dosta toga je popadalo po njemu. da ne
> spominjem saveznicka bombardiranja. vjerujem da im je bata bila zanimljiva
> tvornica.

Ne sporim, lepo sam rekao da ne znam. Mada ipak bih vise voleo jasne podatke.

Profesor.Baltazar

unread,

Aug 22, 2002, 11:35:48 PM8/22/02

Sasha wrote:

> > Sve sto si gore opisao je cinjenica da je postojao (barem presutan) sporazum izmedju Tudjmana i Milosevica o
> > nemijesanju Jugo-vojske prilikom hrvatskog oslobadjanja okupiranih podrucja u Lici, Kordunu, zapadnoj
> > Slavoniji i Knindzistanu. Ako te smijem podsjetiti, u prijasnjim postovima si tvrdio sljedece: "... Tudjman
> > morao da pita Perisisca da li sme da napadne Krajinu". Ocito si se malo zaletio sa stilskom prabolom pa sad
> > pokusavas izmigoljiti promasenim izgovorima. Nema veze, shit happens.
>
> Nisam se ja nista zaleteo. Prvo i prvo, daleko od toga da je sporazum
> bio precutan. Na vise mesta sam naisao na (doduse rekla-kazala)
> tvrdnje da je sporazum i te kako bio konkretan ukljucujuci i potpisana
> dokumenta.

Gdje su ti dokumenti?

> Dalje, prilicno je sigurno da je Tudjman trazio od
> Amerikanaca garancije da ce u slucaju akcije HV JA ostati pasivna.

Ili je sigurno ili nije - tvrdis da postoje dokumenti, a onda recenice kvalificiras pridjevima "prilicno". Nema
veze, da vidimo koliko ti teorija vrijedi: prema tvojoj tezi, da je Bijela Kuca rekla "ne", ti tvrdis da bi Hrvatska
digla ruke od oslobadja zauzetih teritorija? To je ordinarna glupost, jer je u to vrijeme HV bila spremna na akciju
tog razmjera i nije se imalo sto cekati - zapravo vrijeme je bilo idealno s obzirom na zauzetost srpskih vojski u
BiH, a i uzevsi da je cijelom svijetu vec bilo pun kufer Srba i njihovih zlocina po Bosni. Oluja je isla, bez obzira
na Akashije, EU, SAD, Perisice i ostalu bagru.

> Da li je i to bilo ukljuceno u gornje sporazume ne mogu tvrditi, jer
> nisam naisao na takav podatak. S obzirom na to kako se situacija
> odvijala na terenu potpuno sam ubedjen da su sve te tvrdnje tacne.
> Prema tome, bilo da je pitao direktno ili preko Amerikanaca, Tudjman
> je trazio dozvolu Perisica da napadne Krajinu.

Logika ti je jaca strana. Iz ovog tvojeg slijedi sa je nekakav Perisic imao utjecaja na balkansku politiku SAD-a. To
tvrdis jasno i glasno. Svasta.

> > ... Sve u svemu, "Oluja" bi pomela Knindze ovako ili onako, samo mozda uz puno vise
> > zrtava na obje strane.
>
> Naravno da bi ih pomela. Bez municije, goriva, strategijskog zaledja,
> rezerve i svega ostalog sto je pretpostavka uspesne odbrane, Srbi iz
> Krajine nisu imali sanse. Jedinin nacin na koji se Krajina mogla
> braniti bio je napad JA u pravcu Osjeka, s obzirom da je Republika
> Srpska imala svojih problema.

Prilikom cega bi JA samo nastavila tesku blamazu koju je prosla u Vukovaru, samo ovaj puta ne zauzevsi nista. HV
1995 nije bila isto sto je bila jadno naoruzana ZNG cetiri godine prije.

> > > Jedino sto umes je da se svadjas i da podjebavas.
> >
> > Tko te jebe. Nitko te ne tjera da odgovaras.
>
> Da te potsetim, ti si odgovorio meni a ne ja tebi, i pri tom si me
> nazvao poremecenim.

Ja nisam taj koji cvili kao placipicka. Ako ti smeta vrucina, izadji iz kuhinje.

> > > Ono sto ne mogu da podnesem u celoj toj prici je
> > > to da je Milosevic ispunio sve svoje ciljeve i u Bosni i u Hrvatskoj i
> > > u Sloveniji preko ledja svih nas.
> >
> > Tko vas jebe, imali ste nekoliko prilika da ga maknete, jos za vrijeme onih vasih jogurt-revolucija, samo ste
> > bili malo previse zaludjeni nekakvim obecanjima o Srbiji ovdje, Srbiji ondje, CCCC simo, Kosovo tamo, itd...
> > Sta sad, niste bili ni prvi ni zadnji koji su popusili.
>
> Koji mi?

Sta koji mi? Marsovci valjda, ili crnci iz plemena Zulu.

> Ja nisam mi (nemam obicaj da si persiram) i nisam imao
> priliku da ga maknem nikada. Posteno i uporno sam glasao protiv rata,
> ali dzabe. Cak sam se vijao sa pandurima po ulicama moga grada. Nesto
> se ne secam da je takvog vijanja bilo po Zagrebu, ili bar po
> Varazdinu. Prema tome, nemoj da se vadis na Slobu i/ili na stanovnike

> Jugoslavije.\

Sjecanje ti je slaba strana. Sjeti se kad su hrvatska vlada i javnost stali iza studenskih demonstracija protiv
Milosevica jos za vrijeme SFRJ, pa kad su tenkovi izasli na ulice BG. Nije proslo nekoliko mjeseci pa ste na te iste
tenkove zasipali cvijecem na putu do rusenja Vukovara.

> > > Tudjman kao manja riba uspeo je to samo u Hrvatskoj.
> >
> > Uspio je upravo zbog vasih pederluka. Da nije bilo Milosevica i bande, nikad HDZ nebi mogao uspostaviti
> > diktaturu i pljacku paralelnu Milosevicevoj, a SFRJ se mogla raspasti na miran nacin.
>
> Ma da, uvek je neko drugi kriv. Mislim da moram da te ispravim, da
> nije bilo Srba u Hrvatskoj, HDZ nikad ne bi.... Patologija vecine
> Hrvata spram Srba iz Hrvatske je opste poznata stvar. Ti si samo jedna
> slicica iz tog mozaika.

Mozes ti srati koliko hoces, ali moja tvrdnja stoji. Hrvatski nacionalizam 1990 bio je direktan odgovor na srpski
ekspanzionisticki nacionalizam pro-komunisticke boje. Glupost o nekakvim patologijama nije uopce vrijedno
komentirati.

> > > Kako bre vi ljudi mozete da velicate tu jadnu bitku
> > > za Vukovar do koje, da je bilo pameti, nikada nije ni trebalo da dodje.
> >
> > Zbog jednostavnog razloga: rat je Hrvatskoj bio nametnut, i to u trenutku dok je bila daleko ispod razine
> > naoruzanja JNA. Usprkos svemu, JNA je mozda uspjela razoriti Vukovar, ali to je bilo sve sto je taj jadan
> > izgovor za vojsku mogao uciniti. Nije bilo nista od zacrtane linije Virovitica-Karlovac-Karlobag, nista od
> > svrgavanja nezavisne hrvatske vlade, nista od ocuvanja Jugoslavije, nista od zacrtane potpune okupacije Bosne.
>
> Kakva bre zacrtana linija, kakav Karlobag, kakvo svrgavanje vlade,
> kakva potpuna okupacija Bosne, o cemu ti pricas? Cime li vas to
> pumpaju preko tih vasih sretstava priopcenja.

Ma, da, nista nije bilo. SAO Krajine koje su po Hrvatskoj nicale kao gljive gdje god je zivjelo tri i pol Srba - to
smo sve sanjali, ha? To sto su te SAO tvorevine slucajno trebale presjeci HR na spomenutoj liniji, to je samo
koincidencija. Ili mozda laz, kao paljenje guma u Dubrovniku, ne?

> Stvar je mnogo prozaicnija. Sloba je usao u rat u Hrvatskoj da bi namakao materijal
> za ucenjivanje u Bosni a ako ucari nesto preko toga, jos bolje. Jedini
> koji je imao ambicija da menja vlast u Hrvatskoj i/ili ocuva
> Jugoslaviju je bio Kadijevic, a i on samo kratko vremena. Kada je
> ustanovio da ni zapad ni Rusija ne podrzavaju njegov planirani drzavni
> udar (hteo je da pohapsi sve, ukljucujuci i Slobu), odustao je od
> njega i prikazao "Spegelj loce rujno vino i lamentira o doprinosu
> kasikare porodicnom zivotu JNA oficira" preko TVa. Samo cu ti svratiti
> pozornost na intervju koji je ideolog i potpredsednik Slobinog SPSa,
> akademik Mihajlo Markovic dao casopisu Duga jos dok se rat samo
> nazirao, a u kome doslovno kaze da bi za Srbe iz Hrvatske i Bosanske
> krajine najbolje bilo da se presele blize Drini ili u Srbiju. Moj
> komentar kad sam to procitao je bio "Vidi budalu sta lupeta", kad ono
> bum, za par godina eto Srba iz Hrvatske na putu ka Drini. No i to je
> verovatno poluluda teorija zavere.

Kakve to veze ima? Probali su uzeti sto je moguce vise, nije islo, bili su uglavnom zadovoljni sa zauzetim. Nemoj mi
pricati da cetnici nebi zauzeli cijelu Dalmaciju da su mogli, npr?

> Vidi sad, Vukovar grad mucenik, simbol stradanja, motivacija za
> oslobodjenje - je li, da nisi ti propagandista po zanimanju? Veljko
> Bulajic bi ti pozavideo na ovoj tvojoj formulaciji, a mislim da bi i
> Bata Zivojinovic rado poginu sa tim recima na usnama. Jos samo fale
> pionirske marame pa da se rasplacem.

Pitao si za razlog, ja sam ti ga naveo. Svaki narod ima svoje simbole, a samo se budala sprda od neceg za sto su
tisuce izgubili zivote. Sto se desilo sa "vekovnom kolevkom"?

> Znas sta, koliko su Hrvati camili pod Srbima u SFRJ, toliko su Srbi
> camili pod Hratima.

Je, obavezno. Jugoslavija nije pocela i zavrsila sa Brozom, bilo je tu i jedno 23 godine pod samoproglasenom
diktaturom Karadjordjevica. Osim toga, za vrijeme SFRJ je uopce bilo nemoguce usporedjivati politicke prilike za
obicnog covjeka u Hrvatskoj sa onima u Srbiji. Na koji su nacin Srbi camili pod Hrvatima? Zato sto je Broz kao
Hrvat? Pa sta, i Staljin je Gruzijac, da li to znaci da su Rusi najebali od Gruzijaca? Prihvati jednom cinjenicu da
su Srbi bili daleko vise zastupljeniji (nego sto su trebali biti proporcionalno) u SK, JNA, policiji, pa probaj
odgovoriti na koji su to nacin onda Srbi najebali od Hrvata.

> Nije ti to neki argument. Nikakve hitne potreba za
> prekonocnom nezavisnoscu nije bilo.

Tebi nije, ali nije se pitalo ni tebe, ni bilo kog drugog izvan granica RH. Bila je atmosfera kakva je bila, bio je
referendum, vecina ga je izglasala, i to se mora postovati. Nemoj mi samo prodavati filozofije u stilu "tko nas,
bre, zavadi". Naravno da je postojala hitna potreba za nezavisnoscu. Tenkove po Beogradu si vozite sami, nama to
nije trebalo.

> Ja licno verujem da je za rat
> kriva Tudjmanova krstenica - bio je toliko mator da mu se zurilo da
> pozavrsava sve sitnice pre nego sto umre. Uz to je verovatno patio od
> blage paranoje razvijene nakog sto je desetine godina bio izlozen
> prisluskivanju i pracenju. Par dinamitiranja ovde, nekoliko pucanja
> nocu u vazduh tamo, jedno ubistvo tu, jedno otpustanje tamo, par
> natuknica o "NDH domovini nasoj miloj", dve tri razbijene nadgrobne
> ploce i eto rata. Dodaj u tu kasu Hrvatsku patologiju prema Srbima iz
> Hrvatske (radje imam zemlju razrusenu i Tudjmana na vlasti, nego sto
> cu ista potpisati sa Srbima) i evo nam ga Vukovar.

Ma, da, jasno, jadni Srbi, samo su se branili. Ne kazem da nije bilo provokacija i politika HDZ-a bila je sve samo
ne normalna (na bilo kojem planu), ali svaljivati krivicu na Hrvatsku za rat u Sloveniji, pa u Hrvatskoj, pa onda u
Bosni, a na kraju i na Kosovu moze samo sljepac. Sve su te republike imale "patologiju" prema Srbima, ha?

> Mnogi Hrvati sa kojima sam diskutovao ovih godina nisu mi verovali kad
> sam im govorio da je moj prvi komsija u Beogradu pobegao iz Osjeka jos
> davne 1986 nakon sto mu je tri noci za redom neko ispaljivao (i on je
> znao ko - uzalud naravno) po par rafal u kucu. Koliko god oni meni
> "lazes" dzaba im - istina boli, ali i dalje ostaje istina.

Sta me briga, glupe price iz trece ruke, nemoguce provjeriti, na anegdotalne dokaze nitko se normalan ne osvrce, a s
obzirom da je te godine u Hrvatskoj bilo nemoguce i sanjati nekakve HDZ-ove i otcjepljenje, ova prica nema puno veze
ni s cim, bas da se i nije radilo o obicnom privatnom obracunu. Samo, naravno, promatrano iz poratne perspektive,
kad god je neki Srbin ikad dobio po glavi, bilo je to zbog Ustasa. Eventualno zbog Siptara.

> Koja bre Srbija do Kupe. Da su se Hrvati bunili protiv HDZa koliko su
> se npr. samo Beogradjani bunili protiv Slobe, drugu bi mi pricu
> pricali danas. Secas li se tenkova ispred Savezne Skupstine? Nego nije
> imao ko, svi u Zagrebu su bili zauzeti kupovinom "Cistog Croatskog
> zraka" u konzervama.

Vidi gore, glupane. Sjeti se tko je glasao za, a tko protiv izlaska JNA na ulice. Koji su razlog Hrvati imali da se
1990/91 bune protiv HDZ? Izbori 1990 bili su neka vrsta opceg referenduma, gdje je HDZ jasno i glasno pobijedio
obecavsi nezavisnost i demokratsko gradjansko drustvo. Ono prvo su ostvarili, ono drugo jos ne postoji.

> Bilo je toliko prostora za politicko
> manevrisanje, ali nije bilo nikog sa vase strane sa kojim se moglo
> razgovarati. Nikad necu zaboraviti kako se Mesic podrugljivo smejao
> Vuku Draskovicu kao bolesniku kad je ovaj dosao kod njega sa predlogom
> kako da se izbegne rat.

Opet anegdote... majko mila...

> Racan ko Racan, nije ni smrdeo ni mirisao.
> Navedi mi bar nekog iz Hrvatske koji je bio za miran suzivot?

Svi su bili za miran suzivot, osim HDZ-ovih kretena predvodjenih iseljenecko-hercegovskim ludjacima koji su sanjali
o nekakvim Hrvatskama do Drina. Sve sto smo htjeli bilo je mirno otcjepljenje, Hrvati nisu izmisljali nikakve SAO.

> Jedini
> koji mi pada na pamet je Stipe Suvar, dobro te je zivu glavu izneo
> zbog toga. Well, poklonili ste poverenje senilnom megalomanu koji je
> postavio na vlast frustrirane referente ONO i DSZ i ponekog osvete
> zeljnog ustasu. Sve ostalo je istorija.

Posljedica desetljeca kompletne psihoze straha u kojoj je bilo gotovo nezamislivo kritizirati ista srpsko, jer bi se
moglo protumaciti kao ustastvo. Racan ti je najbolji primjer - covjek koji nema kicmu, tipican primjerak hrvatskog
post-proljecarskog politicara. HDZ je dobio izbore jer su jedini obecali nezavisnost jasno i glasno dok su svi
drugi, usrani od straha, mumljali o nekakvim konfederacijama, kao da i vrapcu na grani nije bilo jasno da je bilo
kakva vrsta zajednicke drzave s poludjelom Milosevicevom bandom nemoguca.

> Rat je bio fake. Sloba nije imao ni namere ni ciljeve koji mu se
> pripisuju, Tudjman nije bio primoran da se lati oruzja, kako tvrdi
> zvanicna hrvatska ideologija, Vukovar je bio sidekick job JA - Sloba
> je postigao sta je zeleo u Hrvatskoj nakog 5 dana rata

Kakav sidekick, o cemu pricas? Kao da je JNA u vrijeme razaranja Vukovara bila nekakva treca strana, sta li? Naravno
da je postigao u pet dana sto je nuzno trebalo, al' je Vasa hteo mnogo vise.

> , Hrvati na vlasti su usli u rat da bi napravili Cistu ili bar Polucistu Nasu i
> nista velicanstveno tu nema, vecina YU ucesnika je htela da ih spreci
> u tome.

:-) Sve bolje i bolje. Jedini razlog zbog kojeg je HDZ izazivao sukob je podjela Bosne koja se mirnim putem nebi
mogla dogoditi. Etnicko ciscenje prvi su temeljito proveli Srbi, ako te smijem podsjetiti. Sad jos moram slusati
bajke o nekakvim sprecavanjima etnickog ciscenja, i to jos od Srbina... e, svasta.

> Otprilike 0,1% sa nase strane imalo je za cilj stvaranje te
> "Velike Srbije",

E, a sad je fakat dosta gluposti. Ovo je prevrsilo svaku mjeru fantaziranja. Sretni snovi.

adrian

unread,

Aug 23, 2002, 3:59:08 AM8/23/02

Sasha <a_s...@hotmail.com> wrote in message

news:24bf1311.02082...@posting.google.com...
>
> Rat je bio fake.

e sad bi ti zazelio da osjetis jedan takav "fake" rat. da ti godinu dana
padaju granate po glavi. ali kako sam fin i nikome ne zelim takve pizdarije
(kakve god oni gluposti pricali) necu

Barry Marjanovich

unread,

Aug 23, 2002, 8:34:52 PM8/23/02

CROATIA WEEKLY, Zagreb, August 20, 1999

GENEVA CONVENTIONS SHOULD HAVE BEEN ENFORCED IN VUKOVAR IN 1991

Zdenka Farkaš, the head of the Apel Center, stressed that 1,700 persons
are still unaccounted for who are not listed as missing, but were
apprehended and taken away by the Yugoslav Army and Serbian
paramilitaries

Activists from the Apel Center, organized by the families of Croatian
citizens (civilians and soldiers) who were incarcerated, forcibly
detained and went missing during the war, lit a thousand candles on the
sidewalk in front of the International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC)
headquarters in Zagreb. "On the fiftieth anniversary of the Geneva
Conventions, we wanted to turn public attention to the fate of the
victims in 120 mass graves and of 1,692 persons who are still being
sought and about whose fate their families still know nothing," said
Zdenka Farkaš, the head of the Apel Center. The center asked the Zagreb
ICRC mission chief, Phillipe Gallard, to answer whether the Geneva
Conventions on the protection of war victims should have protected the
wounded and medical personnel in the Vukovar Hospital, Vukovar residents
and Croatian defenders who laid down their arms in the tragic events in
Vukovar in 1991. "Did the ICRC have an obligation to monitor Geneva
Convention compliance at that time?" asked Farkaš, explaining that the
ICRC was being asked that question precisely because it sponsored the
Geneva Conventions of 1949. She also stated that the families of slain
and missing persons will seek financial aid from the international
community for the excavation of all mass graves. Gallard stressed in his
statement that the Geneva Conventions were the most widely recognized,
but, unfortunately, the most widely violated international documents in
the world today. For that reason, he said, their fiftieth anniversary is
not a day for grand celebrations, but an opportunity to reflect upon and
remember the victims of war in Croatia, Kosovo, Bosnia, Congo and
elsewhere in the world. He emphasized that the ICRC will continue to be
engaged in the search for victims of war. At a press conference
organized to mark the fiftieth anniversary of the Geneva Conventions,
Farkaš said she thought ICRC delegates were not sufficiently familiar
with the situation in Croatia and were unable to cope with the tragedy
of those missing and captured in the aggression against Croatia. The
center, she said, expects the ICRC to do more than just publish an
announced book with the names of the missing. Farkaš stressed that 1,700
persons are still unaccounted for who are not listed as missing, but
were apprehended and taken away by the Yugoslav Army and Serbian
paramilitaries. For that reason the Apel Center suggested that the ICRC
publish a book containing the names of victims of Geneva Convention
violations, not merely a book with the names of the missing in Croatia.

bmarja...@iprimus.ca

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Aug 22, 2002, 9:46:56 AM8/22/02

http://www.vido.ldh.org/images/serbia.jpg

CROATIA WEEKLY, Zagreb, July 8, 1999.

CROATIA SUES YUGOSLAVIA FOR GENOCIDE, SEEKS DAMAGES

Croatia is requesting a ruling on the genocide committed from 1991 to 1995.
During the occupation of more than one third of Croatian territory over
20,000 people were killed. The ICJ received the charges

Croatia has sued the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia for genocide committed
between 1991 and 1995 at the International Court of Justice in The Hague in
order to clarify which party was the aggressor and which the victim on the
territory of the former Yugoslavia, as pointed out by the members of the
Croatian government at a press conference held in Zagreb.

"We want to clarify matters by finally obtaining a ruling on the events which
occurred in this region that Croatia was exposed to aggression," said Deputy
Prime Minister Ljerka Mintas-Hodak.

She thinks a court ruling would clear up the role of Croatia and the war in
this region. The Republic of Croatia is requesting that the ruling states
that the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia committed genocide in Croatia from
1991 to 1995, and determines the compensation which Belgrade has to pay.
Croatia also accused Belgrade for the departure of Serbs after the military
Operations Flash and Storm.

The Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide has
been violated, claims Croatia, by the occupation of one third of Croatian
territory during which more than 20,000 citizens lost their lives, three
thousand people are still missing and direct damages in the amount of US$ 27
billion have been incurred.

"We think it is the right moment for Croatia to sue Yugoslavia, both to ask
for compensation and to sue for genocide committed during the Greater Serbian
aggression, because it is never too late for such a suit," said Croatian
Democratic Union (HDZ) vice-president Ivić Pašalić at the party press
conference on Friday. HDZ vice-president Vladimir Šeks added that the suit is
legally based on a conclusion reached at a parliamentary session of October
8, 1991 when it was determined that Greater Serbian aggression was committed
in the Republic of Croatia.

The decision of the Croatian government to sue Serbia and Montenegro at the
ICJ for the aggression against Croatia was a moral, political and legal move
which has been awaited for a long time, according to the Croatian Christian
Democratic Union (HKDU). Such a decision is a historical occasion for
contesting the "arguments" of certain world officials who tried to present
the aggression against Croatia as a civil war for years and to criminalize
the war, according to the HKDU.

"The Republic of Croatia has commenced a procedure at the ICJ against
Yugoslavia for violating the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of
the Crime of Genocide from 1948," according to the ICJ.

>servssssservsssssssrvsssservssservsservssssservssservssservsservssservssss

bmarja...@iprimus.ca

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Aug 23, 2002, 9:09:38 AM8/23/02

http://www.vido.ldh.org/images/serbia.jpg

CROATIA WEEKLY, Zagreb, August 20, 1999

sssssservsssssssrvsssservssservsservssssservssservssservsservssservssss

bmarja...@iprimus.ca

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Aug 22, 2002, 8:55:16 PM8/22/02

bmarja...@iprimus.ca

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Aug 23, 2002, 12:07:34 AM8/23/02

http://www.vido.ldh.org/images/serbia.jpg

CROATIA WEEKLY, Zagreb, October 8, 1999.

VUKOVAR AMONG MOST ENDANGERED WORLD HERITAGE SITES

Vukovar and Mostar have been declared the most endangered world heritage sites
among one the hundred most valuable commemorative sites. The leading
international foundation for the reconstruction of the major world heritage
monuments, the World Monument Fund (WMF), has published the results of
extensive research into the condition of the most valuable world heritage
sites. The commission of independent experts has included the center of
Vukovar and the historic center of Mostar among one hundred most endangered
world heritage sites which will have the priority in terms of their
reconstruction and protection in 2000. In its special book entitled The One
Hundred Most Endangered Sites in 2000, the WMF presents Vukovar as "one of
Croatia's most prosperous cities until the siege of Serbian troops in 1991.
During the siege, half a million projectiles hit Vukovar. The target of
destruction and plunder were the buildings of national and cultural
importance in particular." The WMF concludes that "the occupying forces left
the city in ruins after their withdrawal in 1997." "In the past, Vukovar was
repeatedly the target of destruction (the Ottomans destroyed it while
withdrawing in 1692), but the city was always reconstructed, which will
certainly happen again," adds the WMF. The WMF describes Mostar as an
"architecturally rich" city where "75 percent of the houses and most of the
major historical monuments were destroyed during continuous bombing." The
main objective of the selection of the one hundred most endangered world
heritage sites is to encourage the international public and institutions to
participate in their reconstruction. In addition to Vukovar and Mostar, a
synagogue in Subotica has been included among the most endangered monuments,
as well as the Valley of the Kings in Egypt and Pompeii in Italy. (Vecernji
list)

bmarja...@iprimus.ca

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Aug 23, 2002, 12:15:45 AM8/23/02

>http://www.vido.ldh.org/images/serbia.jpg

PRESS CUT - Croatian Press News in English
November 18, 1999

Snjezana Canic, ‘Neshvatljivo mi je da Srbi u Hrvatskoj mogu zabraniti
obiljezavanje Dana sjecanja na Vukovar!’, Vjesnik, November 18, 1999.

IT’S INCOMPREHENSIBLE THAT SERBS IN CROATIA CAN FORBID MARKING A REMEMBRANCE
DAY FOR VUKOVAR!

ZAGREB, Croatia - At the beginning of the week election lists in Beli Manastir
were released for elections to the Municipal Council, which will be held
December 5. Following an initiative by the Association of Croatian Returnees
and the Osijek-Baranja County’s Returnees Association, there was meant to be
an agreement between political parties, about which we spoke to Mato Simic,
President of the Association.

"Unfortunately only two parties responded. The other parties did not offer an
apology and their accusations can be reduced to the Association being at the
service of the Croatian Democratic Union (HDZ) - referring to the elections
in the Croatian Danube region in 1997. However, today the situation is
completely different. The Serbs in the Beli Manastir Municipal Council had a
majority and the Mayor was also a Serb. The purpose of our invitation is a
desire to allow the Croatians to have a majority in the Municipal Council and
to provide a Croatian Mayor, primarily because the nationality structure in
relation to 1997 has changed. Eighty percent of Croatians have returned,
while some 1 100 Croatian citizens who are in Osijek and Cepin’s Friendship
Settlement will also vote."

ON MORE THAN ONE OCCASION YOU HAVE SAID THAT THE INVITATION FROM THE
ASSOCIATION WAS ALSO SENT SO THAT THE MAYOR IN BELI MANASTIR WOULD NOT BE A
SERB.

"I have said on a number of occasions that the Mayor of Beli Manastir cannot
be a Serb. Now five political parties and two lists of independent Hungarians
have appeared, while there are between four and six candidates in electoral
units. That is proof to all those parties that did not want to believe in our
idea. Namely, the Serbs appeared only with a SDSS (Serbian Independent
Democratic Party) list."

HOW IMPORTANT IS IT FOR THE ASSOCIATION THAT FOLLOWING THESE ELECTIONS FOR THE
MUNICIPAL COUNCIL, THAT THERE BE OPPOSITION MEMBERS IN IT?

"It was not our aim to create a Croatian block, nor for only HDZ to appear on
the lists. That would be crazy and not exemplary of the current political
situation in the country. I also support the multiparty idea in the Croatian
Danube region, because that is in the interests of our citizens. We will see
what the returnees will decide. I appeal to all returnees to go to the polls
and vote for a Croatian candidate."

HAS HDZ MANIPULATED THE ASSOCIATION, AS IT WAS CLAIMED BY SOME OPPOSITION
MEMBERS?

"The Returnee Association has never been the subject of anybody’s
manipulation. It has always presented itself as an association with the
specific interests of refugees."

BUT THE ASSOCIATION, AS YOU SAID YOURSELF, HAS NOT DONE A GOOD JOB IN THE
VUKOVAR-SRIJEM COUNTY.

"Vukovar, as opposed to all other towns in Croatia, is a unique circumstance.
Things are developing, from the reconstruction of buildings to the return of
refugees. The leadership over there is dealing with the problems and it is a
fact that the Association has not managed to find its feet and give its
contribution in that county."

MAYBE THAT IS WHY PEOPLE ARE NOT SATISFIED WITH THE SPEED OF RECONSTRUCTION,
BUT ALSO RETURN?

"That is difficult to judge, but I feel that refugees are primarily worried
because there is not a greater number of houses that have entered the
reconstruction programme in 1999, particularly in the Osijek-Baranja and
Vukovar-Srijem counties. We know that the number of damaged houses is at
least five times greater than the amount which has been reconstructed."

THURSDAY MARKS REMEMBRANCE DAY FOR VUKOVAR, WHICH SERBIAN AUTHORITIES IN
BOROVO HAVE BANNED. YOUR COMMENT?

"I cannot comprehend that in a sovereign and integrated Croatian state, Serbs
can prevent marking the tragedy that Croatians were subjected to and hence
further initiate conflicting situations. However, it is the wish of Croatians
citizens, particularly those from Vukovar, that a Remembrance Day for Vukovar
be declared and finally realised, while all us other victims can identify
with the tragedy in Vukovar."

osama bin kenobi

unread,

Aug 25, 2002, 12:42:33 AM8/25/02

"Barry Marjanovich" <bmarja...@iprimus.ca> said:

>Zdenka Farkaš, the head of the Apel Center, stressed that 1,700 persons
>are still unaccounted for who are not listed as missing, but were
>apprehended and taken away by the Yugoslav Army and Serbian
>paramilitaries

Probably with good reason.

Don

unread,

Aug 25, 2002, 10:12:08 AM8/25/02

Hello,

>osama bin kenobi <ab...@anarchy.gov> wrote in message
> "Barry Marjanovich" <bmarja...@iprimus.ca> said:
>
> >Zdenka Farkaš, the head of the Apel Center, stressed that 1,700 persons

> >are still unaccounted for who are not listed as missing, but were
> >apprehended and taken away by the Yugoslav Army and Serbian
> >paramilitaries
>
> Probably with good reason.

Yeah, they were probably needed for practice shooting people in the
back of the head.
dr

Sasha

unread,

Aug 26, 2002, 11:28:57 AM8/26/02

"adrian" <akoz...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<ak4q39$ckt5$1...@as201.hinet.hr>...

Ti bi se mogao potruditi da malo citas sta pisem, ako vec komentiras.
U tom slucaju bi primetio da sam napisao da je rat bio fake u smislu
da je svaki razlog koji je naveden sa obe strane bio izmisljen,
montiran, naduvan, bezobrazan, preteran, lazan, primitivan, izaberi
sta ti se od toga svidja. Takodje sam napisao da su samo bombe i
lesevi bili pravi. Madjutim, ti si izgleda isufise fin da se zamajavas
takvim sitnicama kao sto je citanje tudjih postova.

Sasa Aleksandric

adrian

unread,

Aug 26, 2002, 11:48:08 AM8/26/02

Sasha <a_s...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:24bf1311.02082...@posting.google.com...
> "adrian" <akoz...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:<ak4q39$ckt5$1...@as201.hinet.hr>...
> > Sasha <a_s...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> > news:24bf1311.02082...@posting.google.com...
> > >
> > > Rat je bio fake.
> >
> > e sad bi ti zazelio da osjetis jedan takav "fake" rat. da ti godinu dana
> > padaju granate po glavi. ali kako sam fin i nikome ne zelim takve
pizdarije
> > (kakve god oni gluposti pricali) necu
>
> Ti bi se mogao potruditi da malo citas sta pisem, ako vec komentiras.
> U tom slucaju bi primetio da sam napisao da je rat bio fake u smislu
> da je svaki razlog koji je naveden sa obe strane bio izmisljen,
> montiran, naduvan, bezobrazan, preteran, lazan, primitivan, izaberi
> sta ti se od toga svidja. Takodje sam napisao da su samo bombe i
> lesevi bili pravi. Madjutim, ti si izgleda isufise fin da se zamajavas
> takvim sitnicama kao sto je citanje tudjih postova.

mozda bi bolje bilo da ti procitas sto si napisao. kaze ovako:

"Rat je bio fake. Sloba nije imao ni namere ni ciljeve koji mu se
pripisuju, Tudjman nije bio primoran da se lati oruzja, kako tvrdi
zvanicna hrvatska ideologija, Vukovar je bio sidekick job JA - Sloba
je postigao sta je zeleo u Hrvatskoj nakog 5 dana rata, Hrvati na
vlasti su usli u rat da bi napravili Cistu ili bar Polucistu Nasu i
nista velicanstveno tu nema, vecina YU ucesnika je htela da ih spreci
u tome. Otprilike 0,1% sa nase strane imalo je za cilj stvaranje te
"Velike Srbije", baba-roge oko koje se u medjuvremenu citava
industrija formirala. Od loseg oca i jos gore majke, ni moja ni tvoja
drzava posle svega toga ne mogu izgledati bolje."

lijepo i lagano je biti pacifist i mudrovati o snazi mira kada na tebe nitko
ne puca. po hrvatskoj su padale prave granate, prave bombe i pravi metci.
mozda je tebi vukovar "sidekick job" ali ljudima koji su u njemu zivjeli ta
tri mjeseca je mozda nesto drugo. isto tako je lijepo pricati o "sidekick
job"-ovima JA kada sve sto si od vukovara vidio je bilo na tv beograd, koja
ti sigurno nije prikazala nista osim pokojeg mrtvog "srbina" o ulicama.
sjedni na vlak, provozaj se do vinkovaca, pa tamo sjedi na autobus (ili se
javi pa cu te ja odvesti) do vukovara da vidis kako taj grad jos danas
izgleda.

i nigdje nisi spominjao "prave bombe i leseve". a za rat sa nase strane
sigruno nije trebalo puno vise od par tih tvojih laznih granata.

Sasha

unread,

Aug 26, 2002, 12:04:52 PM8/26/02

"adrian" <akoz...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<ak2od9$9h9r$1...@as201.hinet.hr>...

To sta bi JA mogla da uradi 1995, verovatno je Tudjman bolje znao i od
tebe i od mene, nije on trazio garancije od Amera bez veze. S obzirom
da nikad nisam video ni Hrvatsku vojsku ni vojsku JA u jednom
ozbiljnom sukobu, ne mogu da sudim ko bi kako prosao. Opet je
cinjenica da dok su Hrvati aktivno cekali napad iz Srbije, JA je
dobila naredbu samo o povisenju stepena borbene gotovosti. Prema tome,
dzaba su Hrvati cekali. Koliku je dubinu Hrvatske teritorije je tih
100 000 ljudi pokrivalo? Kako bi reagovali na kombinovani napad sa dve
strane uz pomocni desant u dubini Hrvatske teritorije? Sta bi im tu
vredela artiljerija na potezu Vinkovci-Vukovar? Hrvatska je isuvise
plitka tu za ozbiljan vojni manevar. Mogli ste tu baciti i 200 000
ljudi, lako bi se nasli u zobiljnim problemima (sve to uz uslov da je
u pitanju pravi rat). No sve su to samo hipoteze o koima ne vredi
pricati.

Sto se tice Vukovara, on nije mera ni za sta, s obzirom da je rat u
Hrvatskoj bio sprdacina sa obe strane. Da me ne bi opet pogresno
razumeo, sprdacina je bila na nivou politickog vodjstva, ne na strani
obicnih vojnika koji su se borili i ginuli sa obe strane. Niti se JNA
preterano trudila da zauzme Vukovar, niti da zauzem bilo sta u
krajnjoj liniji. Mozda su generali i imali neke ambicije po tom
pitanju, ali presudno je bilo to sto je Slobi trebao samo show i nista
drugo. On je posle pet dana rata u Hrvatskoj postigao sta je hteo, dok
je Tudjan to postigao samim cinom napada JNA. Ako bas hoces da znas,
znam nekoliko ljudi koji su dezertirali sa Vukovarskog ratista i
jednog koji se demobilisao posle Dubrovnika, sva trojca nakon sto su
shvatili da JNA ne namerava nista ozbiljno raditi u Hrvatskoj nego se
samo igrati rata. U nevezanom slucaju, cela jedinica je dezertirala
kad je treci put dobila naredjenje da udje u Karlovce nakon sto su vec
dva puta ulazili i dobijali naredjenje da se povuce. To je samo par
primera od milion na koje sam naisao citajuci o toj farsi zvanoj rat u
Hrvatskoj.

Savetujem ti da se o ratu informises i na drugoj strani cisto da bi
video sta tamo kazu. Mozda se onda vremenom i kod tebe stvori malo
objektivnija slika.

Sasa Aleksandric

adrian

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Aug 26, 2002, 12:38:09 PM8/26/02

Sasha <a_s...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:24bf1311.02082...@posting.google.com...
> "adrian" <akoz...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:<ak2od9$9h9r$1...@as201.hinet.hr>...
> >

> > ako pogledas da je manje od dvije tisuce ljudi u vukovaru 91e drzalo
> > stotinjak tisuca vojnika jna + tko zna koliko domacih ceda tri mjeseca
sto
> > mislis sto bi vojska srbije postigla 95?
>
> To sta bi JA mogla da uradi 1995, verovatno je Tudjman bolje znao i od
> tebe i od mene, nije on trazio garancije od Amera bez veze.

kakve garancije covjece? da je slobo davao bilo kakve garancije mislis da bi
par godina kasnije ameri bili prisiljeni dati mu po nosu? ne nego bi fino
sjeli s njim i dogovorili se. ajd da kazes dozvolu od amera, onda bi se
slozio, ali to nema nikakve veze sa srbijom.

S obzirom
> da nikad nisam video ni Hrvatsku vojsku ni vojsku JA u jednom
> ozbiljnom sukobu, ne mogu da sudim ko bi kako prosao. Opet je
> cinjenica da dok su Hrvati aktivno cekali napad iz Srbije, JA je
> dobila naredbu samo o povisenju stepena borbene gotovosti. Prema tome,
> dzaba su Hrvati cekali. Koliku je dubinu Hrvatske teritorije je tih
> 100 000 ljudi pokrivalo? Kako bi reagovali na kombinovani napad sa dve
> strane uz pomocni desant u dubini Hrvatske teritorije?

kakav kombinirani napad s dvije strane uz pomocni desant? koje dvije strane?
kakav desant? preko save? 91 jna nije mogla napraviti desant preko bosuta
kad su nasi branili to podrucje s dvije lovacke puske, mislis da bi mogli 95
preko save? lol

Sta bi im tu
> vredela artiljerija na potezu Vinkovci-Vukovar? Hrvatska je isuvise
> plitka tu za ozbiljan vojni manevar.

dok je hrvatska plitka za manevre, i preuska je za bilo kakvu ozbiljniju
ofenzivu. a jedini moguci smjer ozbiljnog napada je s istoka.

> Sto se tice Vukovara, on nije mera ni za sta, s obzirom da je rat u
> Hrvatskoj bio sprdacina sa obe strane. Da me ne bi opet pogresno
> razumeo, sprdacina je bila na nivou politickog vodjstva, ne na strani
> obicnih vojnika koji su se borili i ginuli sa obe strane. Niti se JNA
> preterano trudila da zauzme Vukovar, niti da zauzem bilo sta u
> krajnjoj liniji.

cini mi se da me ne razumijes, ja se slazem da "politicko vodstvo" ni s
jedne strane nije bilo zainteresirano za vodjenje rata. ali cinjenica je da
je vukovar, iako izdan (u nedostatku bolje rijeci) od hrvatskog vodstva,
odoljevao ozbiljnim napadima (mozda ti ne mislis da su bili ozbiljni, ali
cak da su podatci o gubicima jna pretjerani 50% oni su bili vrlo ozbiljni)
tri mjeseca.

> Savetujem ti da se o ratu informises i na drugoj strani cisto da bi
> video sta tamo kazu. Mozda se onda vremenom i kod tebe stvori malo
> objektivnija slika.

ma super, objektivan cu biti tek kad ozbiljno shvatim iste ljude koji tvrde
da je kosovska bitka jedna od najvecih pobjeda srpskog naroda. sorry ali
vecina izvora sa srpske strane su izgubile sav kredibilitet u zadnjih 15-ak
godina. siguran sam da ces cak i ti to priznati.

Sasha

unread,

Aug 26, 2002, 3:45:44 PM8/26/02

"Profesor.Baltazar" <profesor...@goni.se> wrote in message news:<3D65AD71...@goni.se>...

> Sasha wrote:
>
>
> > Dalje, prilicno je sigurno da je Tudjman trazio od
> > Amerikanaca garancije da ce u slucaju akcije HV JA ostati pasivna.
>
> Ili je sigurno ili nije - tvrdis da postoje dokumenti, a onda recenice kvalificiras pridjevima "prilicno".

Lepo sam rekao na pocetku da je sve na nivou rekla kazala, jer su
relavantni dokumenti i dalje zakljucani. Sve sto sam rekao baziralo se
na tome sta sam citao sto u stranoj sto u domacoj stampi. To za
trazenje garancija npr. sam naisao u izvorima razlicitog inostranog
porekla, sto me navodi na pomisao da gde ima dima ima i vatre.

> Nema
> veze, da vidimo koliko ti teorija vrijedi: prema tvojoj tezi, da je Bijela Kuca rekla "ne", ti tvrdis da bi Hrvatska
> digla ruke od oslobadja zauzetih teritorija? To je ordinarna glupost, jer je u to vrijeme HV bila spremna na akciju
> tog razmjera i nije se imalo sto cekati - zapravo vrijeme je bilo idealno s obzirom na zauzetost srpskih vojski u
> BiH, a i uzevsi da je cijelom svijetu vec bilo pun kufer Srba i njihovih zlocina po Bosni. Oluja je isla, bez obzira
> na Akashije, EU, SAD, Perisice i ostalu bagru.

Ti sve sto kazes ovde baziras na pretpostavci da je tadasnja HV bila
nepobediva i neranjiva. Ona je sigurno bila mocnija nego sto je bila
1991, ali sve je to u pravom ratu relativno. Sta bi Hrvatska uradila
da Tudjman nije dobio garancije uopste nije moj problem. Ti mozes
spekulisati na tu temu do mile volje.

>
> > Da li je i to bilo ukljuceno u gornje sporazume ne mogu tvrditi, jer
> > nisam naisao na takav podatak. S obzirom na to kako se situacija
> > odvijala na terenu potpuno sam ubedjen da su sve te tvrdnje tacne.
> > Prema tome, bilo da je pitao direktno ili preko Amerikanaca, Tudjman
> > je trazio dozvolu Perisica da napadne Krajinu.
>
> Logika ti je jaca strana. Iz ovog tvojeg slijedi sa je nekakav Perisic imao utjecaja na balkansku politiku SAD-a. To
> tvrdis jasno i glasno. Svasta.

U trenutku kad SAD nisu jos uvek mogle aktivno vojno da se ukljuce,
svakako. Uostalom, nisam ja potpisivao papire u Dejtonu sa
Amerikancima nego Sloba, sto znaci da je nekakav Perisic imao uticaja
na Americku politiku na Balkanu.

>
> > > > Jedino sto umes je da se svadjas i da podjebavas.
> > >
> > > Tko te jebe. Nitko te ne tjera da odgovaras.
> >
> > Da te potsetim, ti si odgovorio meni a ne ja tebi, i pri tom si me
> > nazvao poremecenim.
>
> Ja nisam taj koji cvili kao placipicka. Ako ti smeta vrucina, izadji iz kuhinje.

I bas cvilim kazes? E vala si mi odbrusio.

> > > Tko vas jebe, imali ste nekoliko prilika da ga maknete, jos za vrijeme onih vasih jogurt-revolucija, samo ste
> > > bili malo previse zaludjeni nekakvim obecanjima o Srbiji ovdje, Srbiji ondje, CCCC simo, Kosovo tamo, itd...
> > > Sta sad, niste bili ni prvi ni zadnji koji su popusili.
> >
> > Koji mi?
>
> Sta koji mi? Marsovci valjda, ili crnci iz plemena Zulu.

Vidi ispod. Nisi odoleo, morao si da me iseces po sredini da bi
postigao jeftin zgoditak a?

>
> > Ja nisam mi (nemam obicaj da si persiram) i nisam imao
> > priliku da ga maknem nikada. Posteno i uporno sam glasao protiv rata,
> > ali dzabe. Cak sam se vijao sa pandurima po ulicama moga grada. Nesto
> > se ne secam da je takvog vijanja bilo po Zagrebu, ili bar po
> > Varazdinu. Prema tome, nemoj da se vadis na Slobu i/ili na stanovnike
> > Jugoslavije.\
>
> Sjecanje ti je slaba strana. Sjeti se kad su hrvatska vlada i javnost stali iza studenskih demonstracija protiv
> Milosevica jos za vrijeme SFRJ, pa kad su tenkovi izasli na ulice BG. Nije proslo nekoliko mjeseci pa ste na te iste
> tenkove zasipali cvijecem na putu do rusenja Vukovara.

Kakvih demonstracija kad smo svi bili za Karlobag-Karlovac-Hermetinec?
Oh, sad kapiram, po Beogradu su u stvari demonstrirali gore pomenuti
Marsovci.

Osim toga, prva reakcija sa hrvatske strane je bila "sta nas briga, to
su vase stvari". Tek kad su videli kako se stvari razvijaju, pomislili
su da bi mogli nesto da ucare (mislim na vladu). Nisu kapirali da su
te demonstracije bile protiv njih isto koliko i protiv Slobe. Zamisli,
podrzava te covek protiv koga demonstriras. Sto se tice podrske
naroda, nesto je nisam video. Da ne govorim o demonstracijama protiv
sve grublje i grublje Tudjmanove politike u Zagrebu.

> >
> > Ma da, uvek je neko drugi kriv. Mislim da moram da te ispravim, da
> > nije bilo Srba u Hrvatskoj, HDZ nikad ne bi.... Patologija vecine
> > Hrvata spram Srba iz Hrvatske je opste poznata stvar. Ti si samo jedna
> > slicica iz tog mozaika.
>
> Mozes ti srati koliko hoces, ali moja tvrdnja stoji. Hrvatski nacionalizam 1990 bio je direktan odgovor na srpski
> ekspanzionisticki nacionalizam pro-komunisticke boje. Glupost o nekakvim patologijama nije uopce vrijedno
> komentirati.

Slusaj burazeru. Isao sam u Hrvatsku godinama, pocevis od 1963 i pri
tome sam se nagledao te patologije tako da ne mozes meni prodavati
muda za bubrege. A sve te izme mozes nabiti u svoju kutiju za mirno
spavanje. Sloba bi pre svoju desnu ruku odgrizao nego Tudjmanu naudio.

> >
> > Kakva bre zacrtana linija, kakav Karlobag, kakvo svrgavanje vlade,
> > kakva potpuna okupacija Bosne, o cemu ti pricas? Cime li vas to
> > pumpaju preko tih vasih sretstava priopcenja.
>
> Ma, da, nista nije bilo. SAO Krajine koje su po Hrvatskoj nicale kao gljive gdje god je zivjelo tri i pol Srba - to
> smo sve sanjali, ha? To sto su te SAO tvorevine slucajno trebale presjeci HR na spomenutoj liniji, to je samo
> koincidencija. Ili mozda laz, kao paljenje guma u Dubrovniku, ne?

Isto kao i zelena transvezala kroz Srbiju. Posluzilo je HDZu da
motivise Hrvate i podgreje mrznju i nepoverenje prema Srbima i nista
drugo. Orginalno, Raskovic je trazio kulturnu autonomiju za Srbe iz
Hrvatske, a ne SAO. Kako se stiglo od kulturne autionomije do SAOa,
mozda vredi prodiskutovati. Mozda onih hiljadu i kusur detoniranih
srpskih kuca i vikendica po Hrvatskoj ima neke veze sa tim.

>
> > Stvar je mnogo prozaicnija. Sloba je usao u rat u Hrvatskoj da bi namakao materijal
> > za ucenjivanje u Bosni a ako ucari nesto preko toga, jos bolje. Jedini
> > koji je imao ambicija da menja vlast u Hrvatskoj i/ili ocuva
> > Jugoslaviju je bio Kadijevic, a i on samo kratko vremena. Kada je
> > ustanovio da ni zapad ni Rusija ne podrzavaju njegov planirani drzavni
> > udar (hteo je da pohapsi sve, ukljucujuci i Slobu), odustao je od
> > njega i prikazao "Spegelj loce rujno vino i lamentira o doprinosu
> > kasikare porodicnom zivotu JNA oficira" preko TVa. Samo cu ti svratiti
> > pozornost na intervju koji je ideolog i potpredsednik Slobinog SPSa,
> > akademik Mihajlo Markovic dao casopisu Duga jos dok se rat samo
> > nazirao, a u kome doslovno kaze da bi za Srbe iz Hrvatske i Bosanske
> > krajine najbolje bilo da se presele blize Drini ili u Srbiju. Moj
> > komentar kad sam to procitao je bio "Vidi budalu sta lupeta", kad ono
> > bum, za par godina eto Srba iz Hrvatske na putu ka Drini. No i to je
> > verovatno poluluda teorija zavere.
>
> Kakve to veze ima? Probali su uzeti sto je moguce vise, nije islo, bili su uglavnom zadovoljni sa zauzetim. Nemoj mi
> pricati da cetnici nebi zauzeli cijelu Dalmaciju da su mogli, npr?

Brkas babe i zabe. Seselj bi verovatno zauzeo celu Hrvatsku i 2/3
Hrvata eliminisao u procesu. Tu ima samo jedna falinka, Seselj nije
bio vlast, nije bio ni blizu vlasti i nije imao cak ni uticaja na
vlast. Najdalje dokle je on dogurao u ratu u Hrvatskoj je strogo
kontrolisano sredstvo vlasti. Prema tome, tvoje pitanje nema veze s
mozgom. Vlast su bili Sloba i Mihajlo Markovic, a on je pricao
prilicno interesantne price, koje su se igrom slucaja ostvarile.

>
> > Vidi sad, Vukovar grad mucenik, simbol stradanja, motivacija za
> > oslobodjenje - je li, da nisi ti propagandista po zanimanju? Veljko
> > Bulajic bi ti pozavideo na ovoj tvojoj formulaciji, a mislim da bi i
> > Bata Zivojinovic rado poginu sa tim recima na usnama. Jos samo fale
> > pionirske marame pa da se rasplacem.
>
> Pitao si za razlog, ja sam ti ga naveo. Svaki narod ima svoje simbole, a samo se budala sprda od neceg za sto su
> tisuce izgubili zivote. Sto se desilo sa "vekovnom kolevkom"?

Znam, to isto je SUBNOR rekao Bori Djordjevicu povodom one "Za ideale
ginu budale". Ja sam u principu skeptican prema simbolima, jer sam se
osvedocio kako je lako ni iz cega napraviti simbol preko noci a onda
ga pretvoriti u suprotnost opet preko noci (vidi pionirske marame).
Nacionalni simboli su sredstvo za manipulaciju sirokim narodnim masama
manjine zeljne ekonimske i politicke vlasti. Ja ne verujem u "vekovnu
kolevku" isto koliko ne verujem ni u Vukovar. Tu si malo promasio svoj
cilj.

>
> > Znas sta, koliko su Hrvati camili pod Srbima u SFRJ, toliko su Srbi
> > camili pod Hratima.
>
> Je, obavezno. Jugoslavija nije pocela i zavrsila sa Brozom, bilo je tu i jedno 23 godine pod samoproglasenom
> diktaturom Karadjordjevica. Osim toga, za vrijeme SFRJ je uopce bilo nemoguce usporedjivati politicke prilike za
> obicnog covjeka u Hrvatskoj sa onima u Srbiji. Na koji su nacin Srbi camili pod Hrvatima? Zato sto je Broz kao
> Hrvat? Pa sta, i Staljin je Gruzijac, da li to znaci da su Rusi najebali od Gruzijaca? Prihvati jednom cinjenicu da
> su Srbi bili daleko vise zastupljeniji (nego sto su trebali biti proporcionalno) u SK, JNA, policiji, pa probaj
> odgovoriti na koji su to nacin onda Srbi najebali od Hrvata.

Znas, istu pricu koji ti ovde meni pricas pricaju tipovi slicni tebi
po Srbiji. Na svaku tvoju oni imaju odgovor. Npr. tacno je da su Srbi
bili najzastupljeniji, ali su kljucne pozicije moci drzali Hrvati i
Slovenci, tako da se ta masa Srba nije pitala ni za sta. Na taj nacin
je Broz zadovoljavao i jedne i druge. Ja znam kako je bilo biti Hrvat
u vreme Broza jer sam cesto isao u Hrvatsku, ali znam i kako je bilo
biti Srbin, jer sam ziveo u Srbiji. Nije bilo nikakve razlike. U
Beogradu je Hrvat uvek imao prednost na Srbinom i po stambenoj listi i
po primanju na posao i po mogucnosti da napreduje. Samo, u Srbiji se
od toga nije pravilo veliko pitanje sve dok Vrhovec nije poceo da jede
govna po Kosovu i Vojvodini. U Beogradu si rizikovao ozbiljne
politicke represalije ako si pricao o bilo cemu iz srpske istorije u
pozitivnom svetlu. Ljudi su bili stavljani na tapet zbog knjiga o
Kolubarskoj bitci npr. Cak i jedna tako benigna knjiga kao Knjiga o
Milutinu je bila vrlo sumnjiva. Da pevas srpske pesme nisi smeo a da
ne rizikujes zatvor zbog remecenja javnog reda i mira, da slavis
srpsku novu godinu ni slucajno. Sta ti jos treba?

Sto se tice Karadjordjevica, mislim da je njih potezati totalno
besmisleno, posto je zavrsetkom te dinastije kao ikakvog politickog
faktora prestao njihov uticaj na bilo sta. Sta ces sledece da navedes,
ubistvo Radica, bitku na Gvozdu? Osim toga, ko zna kako bi se ta prica
zavrsila s obzirom da je ostvarenje sporazum Maceka i princa Pavla
spreceno ratom.

>
> > Nije ti to neki argument. Nikakve hitne potreba za
> > prekonocnom nezavisnoscu nije bilo.
>
> Tebi nije, ali nije se pitalo ni tebe, ni bilo kog drugog izvan granica RH. Bila je atmosfera kakva je bila, bio je
> referendum, vecina ga je izglasala, i to se mora postovati. Nemoj mi samo prodavati filozofije u stilu "tko nas,
> bre, zavadi". Naravno da je postojala hitna potreba za nezavisnoscu. Tenkove po Beogradu si vozite sami, nama to
> nije trebalo.

Sve je to o referendumu i izborima u redu, ali znas kako kazu "Preko
prece naokolo blize". Ti kao Hrvati mi pljujes ovde HDZ i Tudjmana,
mozes li onda misliti kako su se Srbi osecali? A njih je bilo 13% u
Hrvatskoj i jos su prosli kroz sta su prosli u WWII. Mislim da je
takva situacija trebalo da zabrine svakog ko se zaista brinuo za
demokratiju. Ili je to bila selektivna demokratija samo za Hrvate i
ostale izabrane? Ja licno, nisam doziveo rezultate referenduma kao
realne, jer nakon tolike medijske kampanje protiv svega srpskog, posle
strasenja naroda "divljim Srbima" naravno da ce svi glasati za
nezavisnost. Nedavno je sud Kalifornije naredio da se jedan
"high-profile case" premesti iz Los Andjelesa u drugi grad, zbog
prevelikog navijackog publiciteta u LA stampi. Mislis da je stampa u
slucaju vaseg referendum bila drugacija? Nacin resavanja celog tog
pitanja je od starta bio pogresno postavljen kroz konfrontaciju. Ne
osecam ja nekakvu ljubav prema hrvatskom kolektivitetu ili hrvatskoj
drzava pa da mi treba to "ko nas bre zavadi", daleko vam lepa kuca.
Zao mi je sto je toliko ljudi uludo izgubilo zivot i zao mi je sto jos
uvek ima slepih kod ociju kao sto si ti.

>
> > Ja licno verujem da je za rat
> > kriva Tudjmanova krstenica - bio je toliko mator da mu se zurilo da
> > pozavrsava sve sitnice pre nego sto umre. Uz to je verovatno patio od
> > blage paranoje razvijene nakog sto je desetine godina bio izlozen
> > prisluskivanju i pracenju. Par dinamitiranja ovde, nekoliko pucanja
> > nocu u vazduh tamo, jedno ubistvo tu, jedno otpustanje tamo, par
> > natuknica o "NDH domovini nasoj miloj", dve tri razbijene nadgrobne
> > ploce i eto rata. Dodaj u tu kasu Hrvatsku patologiju prema Srbima iz
> > Hrvatske (radje imam zemlju razrusenu i Tudjmana na vlasti, nego sto
> > cu ista potpisati sa Srbima) i evo nam ga Vukovar.
>
> Ma, da, jasno, jadni Srbi, samo su se branili. Ne kazem da nije bilo provokacija i politika HDZ-a bila je sve samo
> ne normalna (na bilo kojem planu), ali svaljivati krivicu na Hrvatsku za rat u Sloveniji, pa u Hrvatskoj, pa onda u
> Bosni, a na kraju i na Kosovu moze samo sljepac. Sve su te republike imale "patologiju" prema Srbima, ha?

Alo, koliko puta treba da kazem ovde da je Sloba kriv za rat u
Hrvatskoj da bi me ti cuo? Na kraju krajeva, njegovi tenkovi su
krenuli preko Dunava i njegova komanda je bila izvrsna. Ono sto
takodje pricam je da je to bio Tudjmanov najsretniji dan u zivotu, jer
je sve ucino da do njega dodje, ali dzaba - ti gluv pa gluv.
Sprdaj se ti sa patologijom koliko hoces, ali da nje nema, ne bi meni
1978 vracali rodjendansku cestitku iz Hrvatske uz objasnjenje da ne
primaju nista pisano cirilicom. Verovatno su mislili da sam hteo sa 16
godina da ih pokorim i uvedem srpsku upravu u njihovu skromnu kucu.

>
> > Mnogi Hrvati sa kojima sam diskutovao ovih godina nisu mi verovali kad
> > sam im govorio da je moj prvi komsija u Beogradu pobegao iz Osjeka jos
> > davne 1986 nakon sto mu je tri noci za redom neko ispaljivao (i on je
> > znao ko - uzalud naravno) po par rafal u kucu. Koliko god oni meni
> > "lazes" dzaba im - istina boli, ali i dalje ostaje istina.
>
> Sta me briga, glupe price iz trece ruke, nemoguce provjeriti, na anegdotalne dokaze nitko se normalan ne osvrce, a s
> obzirom da je te godine u Hrvatskoj bilo nemoguce i sanjati nekakve HDZ-ove i otcjepljenje, ova prica nema puno veze
> ni s cim, bas da se i nije radilo o obicnom privatnom obracunu. Samo, naravno, promatrano iz poratne perspektive,
> kad god je neki Srbin ikad dobio po glavi, bilo je to zbog Ustasa. Eventualno zbog Siptara.

A sta mene briga sto tebe nije briga? Mi ovde nismo na sudu pa da
moramo dokazujemo nesto. Mi smo ovde da razmenjujemo misljenja. Ako
mislis da lazem ili da moji izvori lazu kazi mi tako, ali ja te price
ne bih koristio da mislim da su laz. Reci "to nije bilo tako zato sto
je laz to sto pricas" nije ni malo interesantno osim ako ne dodas malo
svoje supstance u sve to - neku tvoju anegdotu. Ili si ti svoje
misljenje formirao samo citajuci novine.Osim ako ne pises ozbiljnu
naucnu studiju, anegdote su po mom misljenju dobro dosle bez obzira
sto su neproverljive i veoma cesto neobjektivne.
Na primer, u ovom konkretnom slucaju, ako je covek jedini koji je
napustio Osjek u to doba, ova anegdota je beznacajna. Medjutim ako je
se to desilo vise nego jednom, slika desavanja se malo menja. Ako se
to desavalo cesto, slika se drasticno menja. Ja ti kazem da je HDZ
potekao iz pusketiranja te kuce. Ti sto su strasili nocu svoje
komsije, otisli su posle toga u kafanu i kovali planove kako da dodju
na vlast.
A godine 1987 (manje od godinu dana kasnije), Sloba je dosao na vlast
preko Kosovskog pitanja, ali zaboravljas da je u to isto vreme snazna
borba vodjena oko Vojvodine, u pokusaju Hrvatske i Slovenije da
paralizuju i konzerviraju Srbiju u konstantnom stanju predraspada
(opet ta politika konfrontacije). Well, to se Vrhovcu i Hrvatskoj
obilo o glavu. Ako kazes da je Sloba stvorio Tudjmana, onda budi
dosledan i kazi da je Vrhovec stvorio Slobu. Ni jedno ni drugo nije
naravno tacno, ali ljudi kao ti to nisu u stanju da vide. Vama i dalje
imponuje sila, krv, muka, takmicenje u tome ko je vise stradao,
mucenici Vukovara i ostale sporedne stvari kojima su se do nedavno
samo Srbi dicili.

>
> > Koja bre Srbija do Kupe. Da su se Hrvati bunili protiv HDZa koliko su
> > se npr. samo Beogradjani bunili protiv Slobe, drugu bi mi pricu
> > pricali danas. Secas li se tenkova ispred Savezne Skupstine? Nego nije
> > imao ko, svi u Zagrebu su bili zauzeti kupovinom "Cistog Croatskog
> > zraka" u konzervama.
>
> Vidi gore, glupane. Sjeti se tko je glasao za, a tko protiv izlaska JNA na ulice. Koji su razlog Hrvati imali da se
> 1990/91 bune protiv HDZ? Izbori 1990 bili su neka vrsta opceg referenduma, gdje je HDZ jasno i glasno pobijedio
> obecavsi nezavisnost i demokratsko gradjansko drustvo. Ono prvo su ostvarili, ono drugo jos ne postoji.

Pitas me za razloge hipotetickog nezadovoljstva u Zagrebu? Sta kazes
na odnos HDZa prema Srbima na primer? Ili je to bilo beznacajno u
ocima Hrvata? Niste videli kuda on cilja? Bilo vam je zabavno kad je
Tudjman objavio snimak svog razgovora sa dr. Raskovicem? U vezi sa
tim, koje su razloge Srbi imali da se bune protiv Slobe istih godina?
Pitanje ti, well, nije inteligentno.

Osim toga, kakve veze ima to sto je Mesic glasao protivu tenkova, kad
je isti Mesic bio Tudjmanova desna ruka? To sto je Tudjman podrzao
studente u Beogradu je bio vrhovni cinizam s obzirom da je bio isto
govno protiv koga smo mi demonstrirali. Sto se tice izbora, ja ne znam
da li si ti citao Tudjmanovu biografiju ili sad glumis francusku
sobaricu. Sve sto si trebao da znas o Tudjmanu pisalo je tamo,
ukljucujuci i njegov odnos prema Srbima, njegovu demokraticnost
(oficir obavestajne sluzbe), konspirativan karakter, megalomanija i
moguca paranoja. Izabrati Tudjmana nije direktno znacilo objaviti rat
svojim komsijama Srbima, ali je znacili "Ko vas jebe, koji ste vi
faktor ovde u Miloj Nasoj". To nije bilo bas demokraticno, ne mislis
li? Nije sporno pravo Hrvata da biraju koga hoce, nego je sporna
njihova nebriga za to sta sunarodnik misli. A to da ce oficir
obavestajne sluzbe da pravi demokratsko drusto, to je najbolji biser
koji sam cuo u zadnje vreme.

>
> > Bilo je toliko prostora za politicko
> > manevrisanje, ali nije bilo nikog sa vase strane sa kojim se moglo
> > razgovarati. Nikad necu zaboraviti kako se Mesic podrugljivo smejao
> > Vuku Draskovicu kao bolesniku kad je ovaj dosao kod njega sa predlogom
> > kako da se izbegne rat.
>
> Opet anegdote... majko mila...

Bilo preko televizije, ja gled'o.

>
> > Racan ko Racan, nije ni smrdeo ni mirisao.
> > Navedi mi bar nekog iz Hrvatske koji je bio za miran suzivot?
>
> Svi su bili za miran suzivot, osim HDZ-ovih kretena predvodjenih iseljenecko-hercegovskim ludjacima koji su sanjali
> o nekakvim Hrvatskama do Drina. Sve sto smo htjeli bilo je mirno otcjepljenje, Hrvati nisu izmisljali nikakve SAO.

Svi su bili za miran suzivot osim onih koji su bili na vlasti. Vrlo
interesantna konstatacija. Mozes li iz toga da izvuces neke zakljucke?
Sve sto je 99% ljudi koje ja znam zelelo je da Hrvati i Srbi iz
Hrvatske postignu kompromis. Osim naravno nekoliko ludaka koji su na
raspolaganju imali oko 1500 tenkova, dve tri eskadrile MIG 21 do 29 i
nepoznat broj komada streljackog naoruzanja.

>
> > Jedini
> > koji mi pada na pamet je Stipe Suvar, dobro te je zivu glavu izneo
> > zbog toga. Well, poklonili ste poverenje senilnom megalomanu koji je
> > postavio na vlast frustrirane referente ONO i DSZ i ponekog osvete
> > zeljnog ustasu. Sve ostalo je istorija.
>
> Posljedica desetljeca kompletne psihoze straha u kojoj je bilo gotovo nezamislivo kritizirati ista srpsko, jer bi se
> moglo protumaciti kao ustastvo. Racan ti je najbolji primjer - covjek koji nema kicmu, tipican primjerak hrvatskog
> post-proljecarskog politicara. HDZ je dobio izbore jer su jedini obecali nezavisnost jasno i glasno dok su svi
> drugi, usrani od straha, mumljali o nekakvim konfederacijama, kao da i vrapcu na grani nije bilo jasno da je bilo
> kakva vrsta zajednicke drzave s poludjelom Milosevicevom bandom nemoguca.

Gde sad nestade demokratija iz HDZovskog obecanja? Ili ce biti da ste
(izvinjavam se unapred ako nisi glasao za Tudjmana), preplaseni
Vrhovcevom propagandnom masinom o "divljim Srbima" izabrali Tudjmana,
kao cvrstu ruku koja ce da istera stvari u red i Srbe iz Hrvatske
smesti na njihovo mesto. Isto kao sto su ljudi u Srbiji izmedju
Milosevica i Stambolica izabrali Milosevica kao cvrstu ruku koja ce da
sredi Kosovo i smesti Siptare na njihovo mesto.

Znas, Milosevic je bio sve, ali poludeli nije bio. I iako normalna
drzava sa njim nije bila moguca, sporazum je sa njim bio moguc. To je
na kraju krajeva pokazao sporazum Milosevic-Zulfikarpasic, gde je
Sloba pokusao da se domogne Bosne bez rata, dajuci fakticki
muslimanima vise nego sto su isti dobili 200 000 zrtava kasnije -
celovitu Bosnu. Uz malo pameti, kupovine vremena, lobiranja u SAD
(Nemacku ste vec imali u dzepu) i malo ljubaznosti prema dr Raskovicu,
mogli ste se sporazumeti sa Srbima iz Hrvatske. No, sta onda sa svim
vec angazovanim referentima ONO i DSZ i sa vec potrosenim parama
hrvatske emigracije?

>
> > Rat je bio fake. Sloba nije imao ni namere ni ciljeve koji mu se
> > pripisuju, Tudjman nije bio primoran da se lati oruzja, kako tvrdi
> > zvanicna hrvatska ideologija, Vukovar je bio sidekick job JA - Sloba
> > je postigao sta je zeleo u Hrvatskoj nakog 5 dana rata
>
> Kakav sidekick, o cemu pricas? Kao da je JNA u vrijeme razaranja Vukovara bila nekakva treca strana, sta li? Naravno
> da je postigao u pet dana sto je nuzno trebalo, al' je Vasa hteo mnogo vise.

Sporedan, pomocni, na periferiji, kako god hoces. Dosta dugo Sloba
nije resio da li ce da ga zauzme ili ostavi opkoljenog. Naravno, to
nije za utehu ljudima iz istog.
Nije Vasa hteo mnogo vise, nego je Tudjman hteo kritican broj
Hrvatskih zrtava za pokretanje svetskog javnog mnjenja. A ti si srecan
i ponosan zbog toga. BTW, ko ti je taj Vasa?

>
> > , Hrvati na vlasti su usli u rat da bi napravili Cistu ili bar Polucistu Nasu i
> > nista velicanstveno tu nema, vecina YU ucesnika je htela da ih spreci
> > u tome.
>
> :-) Sve bolje i bolje. Jedini razlog zbog kojeg je HDZ izazivao sukob je podjela Bosne koja se mirnim putem nebi
> mogla dogoditi. Etnicko ciscenje prvi su temeljito proveli Srbi, ako te smijem podsjetiti. Sad jos moram slusati
> bajke o nekakvim sprecavanjima etnickog ciscenja, i to jos od Srbina... e, svasta.

Nije mi bas najjasnije sta kazes. HDZ je izazvao sukob u Hrvatskoj da
bi podelio Bosnu godinu dana kasnije? Zar ne mislis da je to malo
nebulozno? Obrazlozi mi to malo. Takodje hoces da kazes da je za
razvoj cele price nebitno sta je ko planirao, nego sta je ko prvi
uradio? Kakve veze ima to ko je koga prvi cisio sa time zasto je HDZ
usao u rat?
Uzgred, a sto Srbin ne sme da prica o etnickom ciscenju? Da nisam
mozda kriv sto sam Srbin? Dobra ti je to demokratija nema sta.

>
> > Otprilike 0,1% sa nase strane imalo je za cilj stvaranje te
> > "Velike Srbije",
>
> E, a sad je fakat dosta gluposti. Ovo je prevrsilo svaku mjeru fantaziranja. Sretni snovi.

Ti koji si bio s druge strane bolje od mene znas zbog cega su ljudi
odavde isli u rat!? Kad si tako vidovit sto ne otvoris neku satru za
proricanje buducnosti i citanje misli. Cini mi se da ti imas stanoviti
problem sa fokusiranjem (paranoju cak?) gde ti se od svakog Srbina
pricinjavaju Milosevic i/ili Seselj. Cini mi se da sam tih godina
uspeo da upoznam dvojicu koji su podrzavali ideju Velike Srbije a
vidjao sam nekih stotinjak ljudi (terenski posao, sta ces, bilo me je
po celom Beogradu).

Sasa Aleksandric

Sasha

unread,

Aug 26, 2002, 3:55:30 PM8/26/02

"adrian" <akoz...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<ak2oqe$9gsd$1...@as201.hinet.hr>...

> Sasha <a_s...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:24bf1311.02082...@posting.google.com...
> > > >
> > > > In the times of Baroque when "the plains' Salzburg, little Prague" was
> > > > profiled, Sremski Karlovci was center of Serbs in Slavonia and
> > > > Vojvodina. BTW, how about "Srijem is Croatian" NDH's slogan?
> > >
> > > I don't know many NDH's slogans. But Srijem was Croatian long before NDH
> (as
> > > you just noticed).
> >
> > Croatian? I wouldn't say so. It was part of Hungarian Kingdom rather.
> > It was part of Croatia only in WWII. To be honest, i don't remember if
> > it was supposed to be a part of Banovina Croatia in Kingdom of Yu.
>
> srijem je bio dio banovine. dakle postojalo je priznanje srba da je srijem
> hrvatski. inace nakon raspustanja vojne krajine srijem je bio pripojen
> trojednoj kraljevini, tj hrvatskoj.

Znaci dobro sam mislio. Steta po Hrvatsku sto je Pavelic dosao na
vlast. Mozda bi se danas granicili na Adi Ciganliji :)
Nisam bas puno verziran u hrvatsku i/ili nemacku istoriju, ali nije li
drzava zvana Austro-Ugarska? Sto ne Austro-Cro-Ugarska ako je bila
trodelna?

>
> > I don't think so. I remember something rotten going on in Vukovar. I
> > will get back to you on this. Rijeka was entirely different story.
> > After all, Rijeka was not part of Banovina Glavas.
>
> vukovar nije bio dio banovine glavas. doticni nije imao previse veze s
> vukovarom, banovinom mercep (ako bas hoces).

Drasticna razlika.

> a to "rotten" cega se ti sjecas
> se po tv beograd i ostalim rezimskim (citaj svim) glasilima u srbiji
> desavalo u cijeloj sloveniji, hrvatskoj, bosni, makedoniji, kosovu, crnoj
> gori, dakle svud gdje su negativci radili na stetu srpske nejaci

Interesantno da se secam Vukovara a ne slovenije, hrvatske, bosne,
makedonije, crne gore (zaboracio si dodati Juzni Jemen i Bora-Bora)
.... Ali naci cu ja to, mora ga biti negde na netu.

Sasa Aleksandric

osama bin kenobi

unread,

Aug 26, 2002, 10:21:19 PM8/26/02

plumt...@msn.com (Don) said:

Nazi Croats and Islamic terrorists working for the CIA make good
targets.

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