Romancite velat BUGARITE SE SRBI!
Makedon - Vistinski
http://www.makedonskosonce.com/broevis/2000/sonce327/Tekst20.htm
Romancite velat BUGARITE SE SRBI!
Pishuva: Samoil RATEVSKI
Svesta na Bugarite deka se “Bugari” vo turskiot period e
tolku “silna” shto osven kako Srbi tie ponekogash vo
Romanija se oznachuvani i kako Grci.
Dolgo pred da stanat poznati pod “etnonimot sirbi
Bugarite bile poznati so etnonimot shkei (rom. schiai)
romanska forma od latinski jazik sclavus, so koja bile
imenuvani opshto Slovenite"
Imenkata “Bugarin” e glaven argument za kopachite na bugarski koreni da
tvrdat deka tie porano rasnele i vo nashata zemja. Vekje poodamna e
kazhano deka ovaa imenka kaj nas nemala etnichka sodrzhina, tuku
znachela “prost, nekulturen, izroden, vulgaren” chovek, niva ili drugo.
Deka taa imenka oznachuvala neshto sramno potvrduva i Paisij koga
izvikuva: “O, nerazumna budalo poradi shto se sramish da se narechesh
Bolgarin”.
Do den-denes kaj nas se zadrzhale navredlivi izreki kako “bugarska
rabota”, “Bugarin” i slichno. I ne samo kaj nas. Isto znachenje ima i
vo grchkiot, italijanskiot, francuskiot, srpskiot i vo drugi jazici.
Toa ne se prifakja od nashite tragachi na tugji koreni i tie ostanuvaat
na svoeto deka “Bugarin” znachi edinstveno i samo pripadnik na
bugarskiot etnos.
Povod da pishuvam na ovaa tema mi dade edna statija na bugarski
nauchnik, objavena vo elitnoto bugarsko nauchno spisanie “Bugarska
etnografija” vo tom treti od 1985 g. Statijata se vika: “Za etnonimot
Srbi (Sirbi) “Bugari” vo romanskiot jazik i romanskata toponimija” od
Maksim Sl. Mladenov. Vo ovaa statija mozheme da naideme na moshne
interesni podatoci kako Romancite gi vikale Bugarite, i za samosvesta
na pretcite na deneshnite Bugari.
Imeno, spored bugarskiot revolucioner G. S. Rakovski (XIX vek)
“Vlasite gi narekuvaat Bugarite Srbi, a nivniot jazik srbeshti”.
Golemiot bugarski nauchnik i nacionalist, Ljubomir Miletich,
odbelezhuva deka “imeto “Srbin” se proshirilo vo Transilvanija i
Romanija vo minatiot i predminatiot vek (XVII i XVIII vek b.m.) izgleda
so opshto znachenje na “Jugosloven” , bez da se znae razlikata megju
Srbin i Bugarin. Imeno vo ovie vekovi bugarskoto ime imalo zgasnato
(bukvalno “zaglhnalo” b.m.)”. Sepak, takvoto tolkuvanje na znachenjeto
na zborot Srbi = Juzhni Sloveni ne e tochno. Spored avtorot na
statijata:
“Nekoi avtori istaknuvaat deka vo izminatite vekovi so etnonimot Srbi,
Romancite gi imenuvale voopshto Slovenite, megjutoa nekoi podatoci
svedochat deka toa se odnesuvalo pred se na Bugarite”. Taka iminja na
mesta so vkluchena sostavka “Srbi” se srekjavaat vo romanskite
teritorii shto se daleku od srpskite.
“SILNA” SVEST
Vo seto toa vreme na turskoto vladeenje na sever od Dunava zhiveat i se
doseluvaat mnogu Bugari, no izgleda Romancite od niv ne uspeale da
slushnat deka se tie Bugari, a ne Srbi. Svesta na Bugarite deka
se “Bugari” vo turskiot period e tolku “silna” shto osven kako Srbi tie
ponekogash vo Romanija se oznachuvani i kako Grci. Taka Romanski
odbelezhuva deka “Eden od vostanicite (Vasil Panajotov) e oznachen kako
Grk, a narodnosta na ostanatite ili voopshto ne e oznachena ili se
odbelezhuvaat so vobichaenoto vo romanskite teritorii za Bugarite
ime “Srb” (Sirbi)... Denes (sredinata na XIX vek b.m.), naselenieto na
bugarskite sela vo Vlashko i Moldova, od okolnoto vlashko naselenie se
narekuva Sirbi, makar shto vo niv nema nikakov Srbin”.
Faktot shto bugarskite sosedi, Romancite, nemale poim deka nivnite
sosedi se vikaat Bugari, se gleda i od edna gramota na vojvodata
Eremija Mogila od 1603 g. vo koja se nabrojuvaat raznite narodi chii
pretstavnici eventualno bi prestojuvale vo seloto Vzhljani i kade se
spomnuvaat Rusi, Muntjani, Ugri, Srbi i Vlasi, a Bugari i pokraj
nivnoto prisustvo vo Vlashko nema, bidejkji se oznacheni kako
Srbi. “Kaj narodot postojat i drugi dva naziva za “Bugarin”, a imeno
sarbul i schiai; sarbul poteknuva od vremeto koga ne se pravelo razlika
megju knizhoven Srbin i Bugarin...”, veli B. Conev. I “vo arhivskite
dokumenti od Gjurgevo, Bugarite od gradot se posochuvaat obichno kako
Srbi”.
Na pochetokot na XIX vek za Bugarite-preselnici vo Romanija e
karakteristichno “neretkoto im imenuvanje i so imeto “Srbi”
ili “bugarosrbi” ili “srbobugari”... nezavisno shto poteknuvaat od
Slivensko Jambolsko, Varnensko Shumensko, Karnobatsko itn. Neretko tie
vo romanskite dokumenti se imenuvaat i kako “Grci”, makar shto iminjata
tochno ja izdavaat nivnata narodnost: na primer kako Grci se oznacheni
begalci na ime Stojan, Dobri, Zlati, Pejcho, Zheljazko itn”. Za da ne
pomisli nekoj deka e vo prashanje samo nekoja greshka od strana na
romanskoto naselenie koja ne ja odrazuva vistinskata sostojba na svesta
kaj Bugarite postojat dokumenti vo koi samite begalci se deklariraat
sebesi: “bidejki sme nie Srbi - Bugari, dojdeni od turskata drzhava, od
oblasta Karnobat...” ili: “So molba se obrakjame kon milosta na Vasheto
Visochestvo, deka nie sme Srbi - Bugari od okrugot Vidin...”
Za svesta na bugarskite begalci vo romanskite zemji vo izminatite
vekovi svedochi i toponimijata. Kako shto pokazhuva istrazhuvanjeto na
romanskiot istorichar Jon Donat vo Romanija postojat poveke iminja na
sela shto ja sodrzhat imenkata “Srbi”, chie naselenie e dojdeno od
Bugarija ili kako shto se izrazuva toj “nashite Srbi se dojdeni od
Bugarija”. Spored nego, iminjata na sela shto ja sodrzhat
imenkata “Srbi” navistina pokazhuvaat “bugarski etnichki sostav na
naselenieto”. Ponatamu, vo statijata se nabrojuvaat impresiven broj
takvi toponimi. Slichni toponimi kako shto tvrdi romanskiot nauchnik K.
Veliki se pojavuvaat ushte vo XV i XVI vek t.e. neposredno po
potpagjanjeto na Bugarija pod turska vlast, pa malku chudno e toa tolku
brzo “zaboravanje” na bugarskoto ime od strana na sosednite Vlasi. Tie
navodno i nasproti toa shto bugarskite begalci se imenuvaat sebesi kako
Bugari, zapochnuvaat da gi vikaat Srbi. Deka ne e toa vo prashanje,
tuku takviot naziv e posledica na svesta na samite bugarski emigranti
se gleda od faktot shto toponimite so sostavka “Srbi” voopshto ne se
srekjavaat vo romanskite teritorii koi se sosedni na Srbija i imaat
kompaktno srpsko naselenie, tuku na odalecheni od Srbija prostori koi
neposredno se granichat so Bugarija. Zgolemuvanjeto na brojot na
takvite toponimi e vo direktna zavisnost od silata na bugarskata
emigrantska struja. Imeto Srbi e tolku karakteristichno za bugarskite
emigranti “shto istrazhuvachite sogleduvaat direktna vrska megju
iminjata na selata i bugarskata etnichka pripadnost na nivnoto
naselenie”. Paralelno so toa pak, toponimi so sostavka “Bugari” se
srekjavaat izvonredno retko vo Romanija i vsushnost se poznati samo dva.
Za Srbi vo samata Bugarija se spomnuva vo edna vlashka hronika od XVII
vek (konkretno za eden Sirb od Nikopol), a za “1.500 kukji Srbi vo
Vidin” zboruva vo sheesettite godini na XIX vek ruskiot oficer Skolon
(se misli deka toa mozhe da se dolzhi na eventualen Romanec informator
shto izgleda dosta neverojatno).
BEZIMENITE PREDCI
“Za Romancite i za nivnite sfakjanja so vekovi na jug od Dunava
postoela edinstvena slovenska narodnost koja tie ja vikale Srbi”.
Paralelno so toa, spored J. Jordan, vo romanskiot folklor etnonimot
Bugari se srekjava moshne chesto, pochesto od Srbi. Objasnuvanjeto na
ovaa zagatka avtorot ne ja dava, no i ne e teshko da se otkrie. Za
Romancite kako sosedi na Bugarija, t.e. kako dobro informirani,
bugarskata drzhava i bugarskiot narod se etnichki turski i so toa ime
tie gi vikaat Gagauzite i Gadzalite (Gaxalite) vo severoistochna
Bugarija (koi i samite za sebe velat deka se “stari” ili “vistinski
Bugari”!), a bezimenite pretci na sovremenite Bugari poradi toa shto
nemale ni svoja drzhava ni svoe ime gi vikale Srbi i gi smetale za ist
narod so Srbite, (a shto e po interesno i tie samite izgleda taka se
chuvstvuvale) ili gi vikale Sloveni. Taka dolgo pred da stanat poznati
pod “etnonimot sirbi Bugarite bile poznati so etnonimot shkei (rom.
schiai) romanska forma od latinski jazik sclavus, so koja bile
imenuvani opshto Slovenite”. Postojat mnogu toponimi i so ovaa sostavka.
Nekoi avtori za da go objasnat toa zapishuvanje na bugarskite pretci
kako Srbi tvrdat deka e toa od ekonomski prichini. Imeno, neromanskite
narodi imale poseben status vo Vlashko so pravo da sozdavaat slobodni i
previlegirani naselbi. Bugarite nemale takov status za razlika od
Srbite. Vo toj sluchaj ostanuva neobjasneto zoshto Bugarite nemale
takov status koga imalo tolku silna emigracija od Bugarija, a Srbite go
imale makar shto vo Vlashko tie se dosta malku, mnogu pomalku od
Bugarite? Objasnuvanjeto na ovoj fenomen treba da se bara na drugo
mesto. Bidejkji vistinskite, odnosno turskite, Bugari slabo emigrirale
i ne se zadrzhuvale vo Vlashko, a pak pri nivnata masovna emigracija vo
XIX vek odat vo Moldavija, zatoa i tie nemale poseben status vo
vlashkoto knezhevstvo za razlika od pretcite na deneshnite slovenski
Bugari, koi se izborile za takov status pod smetanoto za svoe ime Srbi.
Kako takvi tie opstojuvaat vo Vlashko se dodeka pojavata na bugarskiot
slovenski nacionalizam ne go nametnal i kaj niv imeto Bugari. Otkako vo
XIX vek vekje go primile imeto Bugarin za svoe etnichko ime tie se
izborile i za poseben status i imenuvanje pod nego. Avtorot na
statijata konstatira deka vo naselbi kade shto se naseluvale Bugari vo
razlichni periodi postoi vnatreshno sprotivstavuvanje megju Srbi i
Bugari, makar shto i ednite i drugite se emigranti od Bugarija, samo
shto Srbite se dojdeni poodamna, a Bugarite se dojdeni po sozdavanjeto
na bugarskata drzhava. “Prvite (Srbite) ... gi narekuvaat Bugari onie
novonaseleni, koi sami se narekuvale taka.”
Ima i drugo tolkuvanje. “Spored nekoi romanski nauchnici poimite Bugari
i Srbi vo srednite vekovi nemaat lingvistichka sodrzhina, a poskoro
istorisko - politichka i geografska smisla, posebno vo oblastite koi se
granichni za dvata etnosa”. Pokraj toa imenkata “Bugarin” vo romanskiot
jazik ima i ima znachenje na gradinar; bulgar znachi “proizveduvach na
zelenchuci”, bulgarie “zelenchukova gradina” a bulgari e glagol so
znachenje “se zanimava so odgleduvanje zelenchuci”.
Spored avtorot na statijata vo prashanje e deetnizacija na poimot
Bugarin i negova zamena so Srbin. Toa stanalo po zgasnuvanjeto na
srednovekovnata bugarska drzhava koga “nastapuva postepen zaborav za
bugarskata narodnost, koja e preotkriena odvaj na pochetokot na XIX
vek”. Toa kako i drugi faktori “dovelo do skoro celosno izmestuvanje na
etnonimot Bugari od etnonimot Srbi”. So toa teshko mozheme celosno da
se soglasime bidejki od izlozhenoto vo statijata se gleda deka pretcite
na deneshnata bugarska nacija odprvo bile poznati na nivnite sosedi
Romancite kako Sloveni, potoa kako Srbi, so pochetokot na bugarskoto
nacionalistichko dvizhenje (nepravilno imenovano kako nacionalna
prerodba) kako Srbobugari i Bugarosrbi za po pobedata na toa dvizhenje
i posebno po sozdavanjeto na bugarskata nacionalna drzhava vekje kako
Bugari. Ako na toa dodademe poznatite fakti deka vo XIX vek bugarskiot
selanec se osekjal hristijanin, pravoslaven, i go prifakjal za sebe
zborot raja, i ruskiot car go smetal za svoj rabotata stanuva ushte
pojasna.
Na krajot avtorot zavrshuva so slednite konstatacii. “Vsushnost slichno
meshanje na etnonimi ne e nepoznato kako pojava i kaj drugi
narodi: “Koga znaenjata za drugite narodi se nedovolni, obichno se
proshiruva nazivot na eden od negovite sosedi”. Eve zoshto vo
istoriskite istrazhuvanja treba da se pravi razgranichuvanje megju
istorijata na etnonimot od istorijata na narodot, koga e ochigledno
deka mozhe da se nastanati semantichki transformacii so etnonimot, koi
go izmenile (ponekogash od koren) negovoto prvobitno znachenje”. Ne
mozheme, a da ne se soglasime so toa, no i ne mozheme da premolchime
deka bugarskite nauchnici seto toa go zaboravaat koga kje dojde vo
prashanje Makedonija i imenkata “Bugari” shto se srekjava vo nea, pa
koga makedonskite nauchnici go objasnuvaat ovoj fenomen so skoro istite
zborovi toa se kvalifikuva kako nenauchno i falsifikuvanje na
istorijata. Ovaa statija im e upatena najmnogu na nashite korenobarachi
vo sosedski dvorovi, so preporaka da ne nasednuvaat na evtinata
bugarska propaganda i da ne se lazhat od nadvoreshnosta, tuku da ja
baraat sushtinata.
for fair use only.
Sent via Deja.com
http://www.deja.com/
June R Harton
pseudo, why waste your time protesting in West Bulgarian, idiot!
:)
from: Spirit of Truth
(using June's e-mail to communicate to you)!
la...@my-deja.com
Makedoncite Bugarite ushte kje bea Srbi. kade e sega Vasko da prochita?
Ziezi
>
> Romancite velat BUGARITE SE SRBI!
Absoliutno verno !
Bolgarite = mizi (tribali/serbi + geti + daki) + traki + makedonci
Vulgares = porobenite narodi v Rimskata imperia - Apeninite + Balkanot + Mala
Azia.
(Vulgares = narod)
Koi narodi sa jiveli ednovremenno na site tia zemi ?
Pelasgite !!!
Pelarg, Pelasg, Pelast = drevnoto starogrycko ime na Vulgares (Bolgarite)
Tehen bog se naricha Bog, Boug, Bolg ! Na grycki Bagh-us ili Dionisii.
Tehnia ezik e nai-chist starobolgarski ezik. (Starobolgarskia ezik e pyrviat
pismen "slavianski" ezik, zatova trebva da se naricha STAROBOLGARSKI, a ne
SLAVIANSKI).
Na Balkanot agresori sa - starite gyrci, rimlianite i osmancite ! Dneska i
USA.
Bolgarite sa staroro (avtohtonno) naselenie na Balkanot.
Ziezi
http://ziezi.tripod.com
http://tribal.abv.bg
Makedon - Vistinski
Abre Laci, toj, "Vasko" - "Velikipeder Majmunski" (VM), e teshko
zarazen od tatarskata chuma - bugaromaniaturkomongolitis! Simptomite na
taa zaraza se samo-negerianje na svojata nacija i janicharsko
sluguvanje vo redovite (prvite) na dushmanite protiv svojata nacija!
Eden od simptomite na vakva teshka zaraza e da nemozhe da se misli i da
se gleda so razum, ZA ZHAL! PONEKOGASH, SE ZBORUVA DEKA EDEN GOLEM
KJOTEK MOZHEL DA POMOGNE VO IZLEKUVANJETO OD
BUGAROMANIATURKOMONGOLITIS! :-) AKO GO NAJDAM KOPILEVO, KJE PROBAM DA
IM POMOGNAM DA SE IZLECHI! BRATSKI I SO ZADOVOLSTVO KJE MU DADAM KOLKU
K__TEK SI SAKA, ILI TREBA, SAMO DA SE IZLECHE! hehehe...:-)
Dr Makedon
1912
> lele lele. Bugarite bile pogolemi Srbi od Srbite. izgleda da ne bea
> Makedoncite Bugarite ushte kje bea Srbi. kade e sega Vasko da
prochita?
Procitav.
Kazi Laci, kakov prekar mu dadoja na toj so go pobedi Samoil?
V.
--
The world will forget the Macedonian Holocaust at it's
peril and the perpertrators of it will one day beg for
forgiveness at the pain of revolutionary justice......
http://members.xoom.com/_XMCM/knigi_en/am/index.html
June R Harton
Dr heal yourself, you pathetic pantywetting cross-dressing
West Bulgarian renegade.
You, Lackie of Gail, note....that applies to you too.
It is time for you Fyromians to stop lying to yourselves:
Kuzman Anastasov Shapkarev
(1834-1909) Faith and Nationality
Q: What is most sacred for man ?
A: His faith and nationality.
Q: What is your faith?
A: I am a christian.
Q: What is your nationality?
A: I am Bulgarian.
Q: Why?
A: Because my parents are Bulgarians and I speak Bulgarian.
Q: Cannot man change his faith and nationality?
A: There are such people who change their religion and nationality but they
commit the gravest sin and they are considered traitors by the world. They
are not dear to any one, everybody hates and despises them and that is why I
shall never think of such things and I shall always try to help such misled
people to find the true path.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
K Shapkarev's "Bulgarsky Boukvar" 1868, p45
[Bulgarian Primer - in the language of the Macedonian Bulgarians]
Kuzman Shapkarev was the greatest collector and publisher of ethnographic
material in Vardar Macedonia. Born in the city of Ohrid, he spent some 30
years (1855-84) as a teacher in this part of Macedonia. He published
hundreds of articles and monographs on the dialects and folklore in the
Periodic Journal of the Bulgarian Academy of Sciences (Bqlgarskoto Knijovno
Drujestvo). His major work is "Sbornik ot bqlgarski narodni umotvoreniya" in
three volumes, Sofia, 1891-94.
From the
"Autobiography" (1864)
of Kouzman Shapkarev
The state of education in Macedonia
"Genealogy and life of Kouzman, the son of Tasev (Atanasov), the son of
Paskal, the son of Mihail Shapkarev from Ochrida. Mihail Shapkarev, a
Bulgarian, born in the village of Leskovets, which is at one hour's walk
east of Ochrida, in the Western part of Petrino Mountain, was the father of
two sons called Hadji Peter and Paskal. According to the usual custom of
that time, Mihail went to work in Constantinople and since he stayed a very
long time there, without visiting his family, his wife took her little
children and went on horseback to her husband in Constantinople. After
staying for a while there she returned home again. That is why she was
called later "Stamboulka".
When the end of my stay in Bitolya drew near, that is, when I finished my
studies there, I had to look for a job as a teacher. My teacher Atanasy took
the trouble to find me a job. He tried to place me in Turnovo (a small
village in the district of Bitolya) but failed. Then he tried through Georgy
Tsolev, the best friend and secret adviser of Atanasy, ie mine as well, then
through Atanasy and Yanakiev, to get an appointment for me as teacher in the
village of Neveska or some other village. Meanwhile some people from
Koukoush, of whom Stameno Petsov was one, put up at our inn once and invited
me for a teacher in Koukoush (where the spark of love for our mother
Bulgarian tongue had not been kindled yet). I am very much obliged
especially to two of my teachers - one of them Mile Skopachev, who being a
good psalm singer, taught me to sing and understand a little of
hymn-singing; while the other - Kostadin Hr. Ouzounov, was the first to
inspire me with the desire to study my native language. He gave me a Serbian
primar (because there were no Bulgarian primars in our part of the country,
and no one even thought of studying Bulgarian, while now, thank God, the
situation is quite changed), taught me to understand the letters and kindled
the first sparks of love for our language in me. God bless his soul in
heaven! That year I studied geography, mathematics, ecclesiastical history,
together with Ancon Mitanov and Vasil Dyamandiev.
During the three years of my being a teacher in Strouga two important things
in my life took place there. The first was that I introduced in school for
the first time the teaching of our native language the Bulgarian language,
which about a century (70 years) ago was in danger of disappearing
completely. The reason for this introduction was closely connected with the
late Dimiter Miladinov, of whom we shall speak more later on in this book.
This worthy man, being a teacher in Greek for many years, was naturally for
a while a supporter of the Greeks and persecutor of the Bulgarians. But
during the last years of his life (just like St. Paul) he was aware of his
delusion, in which not only all Bulgarians in Macedonia but even he himself
had fallen, and renouncing his former errors he zealously worked even to the
day of his death for the spiritual revival of the people, and the
introduction of the Bulgarian language in the Bulgarian churches and
schools, in which the Greek language was used at that time. The endeavours
of this worthy man inspired me also to introduce the Bulgarian language
which I learnt to read a little as early as 1856 in Ochrida from Kostadin
Hr. Ouzounov - in my school. But I lacked the necessary books. I received
help, however, from the same person. Because after he returned to his place
in Prilep he sent me 15 Serbian primars with church letters. Then after he
went to Koukoush he sent me a sufficient number of Bulgarian primars and
histories, published by the Archimandrite Parteny Zografsky, the present
bishop of Polyanin (Koukoush). This is the first event. And the second one
is that at the end of my second year there (Oct. 30th, 1858) I was engaged
to Elisaveta D. Miladinova, and married her five years later [Sept. 25th,
1863].
The Name Macedonians
In a letter to Prof. Marin Drinov of May 25, 1888 Kuzman Shapkarev writes:
"But even stranger is the name Macedonians, which was imposed on us only 10
to 15 years ago by outsiders, and not as something by our own
intellectuals... Yet the people in Macedonia know nothing of that ancient
name, reintroduced today with a cunning aim on the one hand and a stupid one
on the other. They know the older word: "Bugari", although mispronounced:
they have even adopted it as peculiarly theirs, inapplicable to other
Bulgarians. You can find more about this in the introduction to the booklets
I am sending you. They call their own Macedono-Bulgarian dialect the
"Bugarski language", while the rest of the Bulgarian dialects they refer to
as the "Shopski language". (Makedonski pregled, IX, 2, 1934, p. 55; the
original letter is kept in the Marin Drinov Museum in Sofia, and it is
available for examination and study)
Here is the text in the original:
"No pochudno e imeto Makedonci, koeto naskoro, edvay predi 10-15 godini, ni
natrapiha i to otvqn, a ne kakto nyakoi mislyat ot samata nasha
inteligenciya... Narodqt obache v Makedoniya ne znae nishto za tova
arhaichesko, a dnes, s lukava cel ot edna strana, s glupeshka ot druga,
podnoveno prozvishte; toy si znae postaroto: Bugari, makar i nepravilno
proiznasyano, daje osvoyava si go kato sobstveno i preimushtestveno svoe,
nejeli za drugite Bqlgari. Za tova shte vidite i v predgovora na izpratenite
mi knijici. Toy naricha Bugarski ezik svoeto Makaedono-bqlgarsko narechie,
kogato drugite bqlgarski narechiya naricha Shopski."
from: Spirit Of The Real Makedon
(using June's e-mail to communicate to you)!
........The heart of Macedonia was always Greek
June R Harton
"1912" the lying psychotic wrote
>the Macedonian Holocaust
June R Harton
"Ziezi" <zie...@my-deja.com> wrote > Absoliutno verno !
Bolgarite = mizi (tribali/serbi + geti + daki) + traki + Voulgari
It is time for the fyromians to stop lying to themselves, folks:
Kuzman Anastasov Shapkarev
The Name Macedonians
from: Spirit of Truth
ivay...@my-deja.com
> Makedon - Vistinski <mak...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> > http://www.makedonskosonce.com/broevis/2000/sonce327/Tekst20.htm
> >
........
> lele lele. Bugarite bile pogolemi Srbi od Srbite. izgleda da ne bea
> Makedoncite Bugarite ushte kje bea Srbi. kade e sega Vasko da
prochita?
Your attempt at sarcasm backfires badly in your face. You see this is
the whole point. In the XVIII-XIX and the beginning of XX c. Macedonia
was one of the main centers of "bugaromanstvo" in the Balkans. Starting
with Otec Paisij going through brakja Miladinovi, then Goce Delchev,
Dame Gruev, and ending with Todor Aleksandrov and Ivan Mihajlov,
Macedonia was one of the main bastions of
"bugaromanstvo/turko-tatarofilstvo", more so than most other parts of
Bulgaria. Do you get it now?
Ivaylo.
Krasimir Yalamov
> In article <95dil0$7m5$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> la...@my-deja.com wrote:
> > In article <95dfmc$5go$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> > Makedon - Vistinski <mak...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > http://www.makedonskosonce.com/broevis/2000/sonce327/Tekst20.htm
> > >
>
> ........
>
> > lele lele. Bugarite bile pogolemi Srbi od Srbite. izgleda da ne bea
> > Makedoncite Bugarite ushte kje bea Srbi. kade e sega Vasko da
> prochita?
>
> Your attempt at sarcasm backfires badly in your face. You see this is
> the whole point. In the XVIII-XIX and the beginning of XX c. Macedonia
> was one of the main centers of "bugaromanstvo" in the Balkans. Starting
> with Otec Paisij
Yes.
Do you know when was born Otec Paisij?
ivay...@my-deja.com
Krasimir Yalamov <yal...@att.net> wrote:
> ivay...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
> > In article <95dil0$7m5$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> > la...@my-deja.com wrote:
> > > In article <95dfmc$5go$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> > > Makedon - Vistinski <mak...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > http://www.makedonskosonce.com/broevis/2000/sonce327/Tekst20.htm
> > > >
> >
> > ........
> >
> > > lele lele. Bugarite bile pogolemi Srbi od Srbite. izgleda da ne bea
> > > Makedoncite Bugarite ushte kje bea Srbi. kade e sega Vasko da
> > prochita?
> >
> > Your attempt at sarcasm backfires badly in your face. You see this is
> > the whole point. In the XVIII-XIX and the beginning of XX c. Macedonia
> > was one of the main centers of "bugaromanstvo" in the Balkans. Starting
> > with Otec Paisij
>
> Yes.
> Do you know when was born Otec Paisij?
No, but he wrote "Istoriya Slavyanobolgarskaya" in 1762 when he was probably
35+.
Ivaylo.
Krasimir Yalamov
> In article <95dfmc$5go$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> Makedon - Vistinski <mak...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> > http://www.makedonskosonce.com/broevis/2000/sonce327/Tekst20.htm
> >
> > Romancite velat BUGARITE SE SRBI!
>
> Absoliutno verno !
>
> Bolgarite = mizi (tribali/serbi + geti + daki) + traki + makedonci
>
> Vulgares = porobenite narodi v Rimskata imperia - Apeninite + Balkanot + Mala
> Azia.
>
> (Vulgares = narod)
>
> Koi narodi sa jiveli ednovremenno na site tia zemi ?
>
> Pelasgite !!!
>
> Pelarg, Pelasg, Pelast = drevnoto starogrycko ime na Vulgares (Bolgarite)
>
> Tehen bog se naricha Bog, Boug, Bolg ! Na grycki Bagh-us ili Dionisii.
>
> Tehnia ezik e nai-chist starobolgarski ezik. (Starobolgarskia ezik e pyrviat
> pismen "slavianski" ezik, zatova trebva da se naricha STAROBOLGARSKI, a ne
> SLAVIANSKI).
>
> Na Balkanot agresori sa - starite gyrci, rimlianite i osmancite ! Dneska i
> USA.
You missed Russia and USSR.
Are you Russian?
Krasimir Yalamov
> In article <3A7A7443...@att.net>,
> Krasimir Yalamov <yal...@att.net> wrote:
> > ivay...@my-deja.com wrote:
> >
> > > In article <95dil0$7m5$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> > > la...@my-deja.com wrote:
> > > > In article <95dfmc$5go$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> > > > Makedon - Vistinski <mak...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > http://www.makedonskosonce.com/broevis/2000/sonce327/Tekst20.htm
> > > > >
> > >
> > > ........
> > >
> > > > lele lele. Bugarite bile pogolemi Srbi od Srbite. izgleda da ne bea
> > > > Makedoncite Bugarite ushte kje bea Srbi. kade e sega Vasko da
> > > prochita?
> > >
> > > Your attempt at sarcasm backfires badly in your face. You see this is
> > > the whole point. In the XVIII-XIX and the beginning of XX c. Macedonia
> > > was one of the main centers of "bugaromanstvo" in the Balkans. Starting
> > > with Otec Paisij
> >
> > Yes.
> > Do you know when was born Otec Paisij?
>
> No, but he wrote "Istoriya Slavyanobolgarskaya" in 1762 when he was probably
> 35+.
Hence Otec Paisij started the Bulgarian national revival in 1762,
reminding the Slavs/Bulgarians of their greatest earlier times -
when the Bulgarians had their state, church and language
well recognized and influential.
I'd like that somebody explains the earliest when and how
of the Macedonian revival.
Stephan Nikolov
> > Yes.
> > Do you know when was born Otec Paisij?
>
> No, but he wrote "Istoriya Slavyanobolgarskaya" in 1762 when he was
probably
> 35+.
>
40.
SN
Ziezi
Syjaliavam za propuska.
Gyrcite vladeiat balkanski zemi veche celi 2700 godini.
Rimlianite sa vladeli balkanski zemi okolo 500 godini.
Osmanliite - i do dnes vladeiat balkanski zemi chrez tehnoto otroche - Turcia.
Rusia i USSR sa vladeli balkanski zemi okolo 100 godini.
USA syshto smiatat da vekuvat tuk.
G Schneider
ivay...@my-deja.com wrote:
Turko-tartarfilstvo!!!!!
hahahaha!
Ivaylo, you have me rolling on the floor with that one!
lololol, and I think, in a way (considering I studied Ottoman History and
Turkish History at one point in my life) I might might be, at least
partially, a turko-tatarophile.....
hahahahaha
But think of it this way (we're settling back to the topic now), all these
guys made a few disparate statements, depending on their audience. Sol
instead of looking at isolated statements and incidences, why not look at
what they were all trying to achieve. How many of them (Goce Delchev,
Miladinovi brothers, Paissy Hilandarski, and Dame Gruev, etc. were trying
to achieve the Greater Bulgaria? OK, now contrast this with Vancho
Mihailov who states in the preface to his four volume opus (which he even
suckered Macedonian Americans into financing) that one of his greatest
goals in that publication was to prove that Macedonian = Bulgarian.
Voyager
http://www.hri.org/docs/macque/
http://www.cc.ece.ntua.gr/~conster/PageData/list_of_inscriptions.htm
http://www.ancientgreece.com/
http://www.fhw.gr/chronos/06/en/politics/top/top000.html
http://www.macedonia.com/greek/
http://cal044202.student.utwente.nl/~marsares/history/index.html
MACEDONIA MEANS GREECE
Well again !!!!!!!!!!!
I think I have to make a history lesson which is part of
every good ELEMENTARY school around the world !!!!!
When we are talking about Macedonians we are talking
about Greek people and the history of them starts the 6th
again the 6th century BEFORE Christ !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The Macedonians were Dorians as the Spartans were.
Macedon it's a Greek name and it means tall-man.
They were speaking Greek, having Greek education Greek
religion, Greek costumes, Greek names, and they were the
part of the Greeks who achieve to unified all the Greeks together.
Also a lot's of the greatest minds of the antiquity expect the
political and military leaders were Macedonians.like the
Aristotel and many-many others.
Alexander and Aristotel were THE Greeks as All the Macedonians
of course. If you want more just read the Aristotel.
At the Byzantine times the greatest and longest dynasty of
emperors were the Macedonian dynasty, they also were Greeks
them language was the Greek etc.
The people you call "Macedonians" are SLAVS and the Slavs
came to the Balkan's region at the 7th century AFTER Christ !!!!
Some of the emperors of the Macedonian dynasty defend the
the Greek empire of the middle ages (Byzantine) in many wars
against the Slavs who were trying to invade into it.
Now we learn that Slavs can't be Macedonians for all these reasons
above.
One more time in summary.
1) Macedonians history starts at the 6th century BEFORE Christ.
2) So called Macedonians(Slavs)history starts at 7th century
AFTER Christ. 1100 years of distance !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
3) Macedonians language was always the GREEK !!!!!!!!!!!!!
4) So called Macedonians language is Slavonic very similar to
Bulgarian language.
Now about the latest history.
The Republic of Macedonia was a Tito's creation and it had to
do with his plans to come down to the Aegean sea.
Tito name this part of the formal Yugoslavia as Macedonia after
the second world war for this reason.
The name of this country before that was Bardarska Banovina.
Of course Titto change everything since then and he started teaching
the kids of this country that they come from Alexander the Great
and they are the great Macedonians for the reason above.
After the fall of the communism in Europe the Americans having
many interests and plants for the region pushed things for the
independence of all the formal Yugoslavia federal countries.
They used Macedonia as a tool to blackmail Greece and to
achieve to push Greece to give them the things they wanted
the way they wanted.
Like the issue of the new NATO military bases in Greece the
oils of the Aegean sea, and of course the silence and cooperation
of Greece during the Bosnian and Kosovo wars, which was the
major targets of the USA in it's effort to put it's foots into the Balkans.
There was even CIA agents around this area those years who trying
to find very poor people and they offered them 10000$ to each
person to sign that they are not Greeks but........."Macedonians".:-)))))
The....."Agency" !!!!!
The operation of the CIA to find in northern Greece co-called Macedonians
(Slavs) started at Jen 1994 and the head was the vice-consul of the
American consulate of Thesaloniki David Shuler.
David Shuler except of a vice-consul he was also a CIA official with
specialty in the destabilization of countries and regimes.
Of course this operation was under the knowledge and the protection
of the consul Mrs Myriam Hughes and the ambassador of the American
Embassy of Athens Thomas Nils.
At January 1994 David Shuler met at the only cafe of a small village
outside Florina (Meliti) some Slavs and give them 100000$ and orders
to work on this project finding "Macedonians" (Slavs) in Greece.
Those persons were P.Voscou, Z.Bulef, I. Pasov, D.Dumutriou.
Those 100000$ was the reward of these 4 persons for their work on
this operation.
After this Shuler and his assistants traveled all around Northern Greece
and they found some people (old the most of them and, very poor, and
with less of without education at all), and he persuade them that some
of their grandfathers were "Macedonian" :-))))) giving them 10000$
He give them to sing a paper in Greek and in English which the most of
them were unable to read.
He took all these papers and he send it to the State Department.
The Greek authorities used to follow all the actions of Shuler's team, from
the beginning until the end, but they didn't arrested him for obvious
reasons.
Shuler also after this job he worked in Thrace and he did terrible things
there.
Some time and when Shulers activities became to extraordinary, and
very dangerous, the Greek government call the consul Hughes and ask her
to stop these activities of Shuler.
M.Hughes answer that Shuler is a young man and he has no experience
and he did some bad and wrong things etc.
You know the usual bullshit.
Now about the future
If you are watching the news you should know that after the end of the
war in Kosovo Greece buy everything inside F.Y.R.O.M. even the
central bank of this country, of course under the oversight of the
Americans.
I'm sure that there will be absolutely no problem between the
Greece and the F.Y.R.O.M and i think that the people of this
country are smart enough to understand that Greece is the best
ally for them as Greece never thread them.
On the contrary Albanians and Bulgars used to thread them a lot.
There's no hard feelings about the people of FYROM in Greece
and i think that they are starting to understand that all these are some
of the idiotic things Titto and some stupid nationalists put them in
the head.
There's still some people like this and they used to say this stupid
things which are ridiculous, and that's a problem but i think it will
not be a serious one, i don't think that they are SO stupid !!!!!!!!!!
I'm sure that the people and the politicians of FYROM knows that,
so the future will be excellent for both sides.
Balkans need the peace and i'm sure that's what the Fyromian
people need and want.
Voyager.
I feel pity sometimes, for the people who
read one or more newspapers, and they think
that they know what really happens in the world.
Thomas Jefferson
Former U.S. President.
Friendly
Voyager.
Voyager
Voyager
Voyager
ivay...@my-deja.com
G Schneider <oh...@my-deja.com> wrote:
.......
>
> But think of it this way (we're settling back to the topic now), all these
> guys made a few disparate statements, depending on their audience. Sol
> instead of looking at isolated statements and incidences, why not look at
> what they were all trying to achieve. How many of them (Goce Delchev,
> Miladinovi brothers, Paissy Hilandarski, and Dame Gruev, etc. were trying
> to achieve the Greater Bulgaria? OK, now contrast this with Vancho
> Mihailov who states in the preface to his four volume opus (which he even
> suckered Macedonian Americans into financing) that one of his greatest
> goals in that publication was to prove that Macedonian = Bulgarian.
>
First, Paisiy, Miladinovi brothers, Goce and Dame made more than "a few
disparate statements, depending on their audience" to show their devotion
to the Bulgarian cause, but lets ignore this fact. Let me ask you a
direct question. Are the leaders of the KLA and the Kosovo Albanian
leadership in general fighting for Greater Albania? Some people say yes,
I think not. Does this made make them less Albanian? The truth is that we
will never know for certain what was in heads of these men but the
totality of their actions speaks for itself! I am absolutely sure, that
if Mihaylov did not live so long, and did not leave such a prolific pro-
Bulgarian record, Macedonists would proclaim him as a great Macedonian
hero who fought for free Macedonia (WHICH HE DID).
May be you should consider the possibility that in 1762-1920 there was no
need to demonstrate the Bulgarian character of the majority of the
Macedonian population but when Mihaylov wrote his memoirs that was no
longer the case.
June R Harton
Kr ass wrote
> I'd like that somebody explains the earliest when and how
> of the
"Macedonian"
> revival.
Sure. Here:
Kuzman Anastasov Shapkarev
The Name Macedonians
from: Spirit Of The Real Makedon
(using June's e-mail to communicate to you)!
........The heart of Macedonia was always Greek
June R Harton
"G Schneider" wrote
> Turko-tartarfilstvo!!!!!
> hahahaha!
> Ivaylo, you have me rolling on the floor with that one!
> lololol, and I think, in a way (considering I studied
Oh come now, GAIL SCHNEIDER you cannot call what you did
"study"...at best it should be called "obtaining misunderstandings
on every page read"
>Ottoman History and Turkish History at one point in my life) I might
> might be, at least partially, a turko-tatarophile.....
At least you may be being somewhat honest there:
Marina, this is Galina's actual ethnicity in her own words.
Just making sure you saw it as it was posted in two parts:
Gail's own words:
"I left home as a teenager like I said.
.......................................
I haven't trace my whole family but
my grandmother was English & English gypsy,
my grandfather unknown parentage from father & Cherokee.
Other side, grandfather English & 1/4 Dutch (maybe only 1/8 Dutch)
grandmother English with some people who are mixed
from Appalachians (some people think they were Turks,
mixed w/ slaves, or Indians-there is a website on
them).........................................."
> hahahahaha
> But think of it this way (we're settling back to the topic now), all these
> guys made a few disparate statements, depending on their audience. Sol
> instead of looking at isolated statements and incidences, why not look at
> what they were all trying to achieve. How many of them (Goce Delchev,
> Miladinovi brothers, Paissy Hilandarski, and Dame Gruev, etc. were trying
> to achieve the Greater Bulgaria?
All of them, fool.
> OK, now contrast this with Vancho Mihailov who states in the preface
> to his four volume opus (which he even suckered Macedonian Americans
Macedonian nothing, fool.
> into financing) that one of his greatest
> goals in that publication was to prove that Macedonian = Bulgarian.
As I said, Gail, you are a fool AND you are making a fool of yourself
again.
from: Spirit of Truth
Krasimir Yalamov
> KY
> > I'd like that somebody explains the earliest when and how
> > of the Macedonian revival.
>
> Sure. Here:
[del]
Cow, no cow is 'somebody'.
G Schneider
Lovely rendention
June R Harton
Kr ass wrote
> Cow, no cow is 'somebody'.
Good one, Kr ass! But it doesn't change the truth:
Kr ass wrote
> I'd like that somebody explains the earliest when and how
> of the
"Macedonian"
> revival.
Sure. Here:
June R Harton
Gail Schneider the whore to history and truth and filthy liar wrote
> Ziezi,
> Lovely rendention
> > Bolgarite = mizi (tribali/serbi + geti + daki) + traki + makedonci
G Schneider
ivay...@my-deja.com wrote:
> In article <3A7B52B6...@my-deja.com>,
> G Schneider <oh...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> .......
> >
> > But think of it this way (we're settling back to the topic now), all these
> > guys made a few disparate statements, depending on their audience. So!
> > instead of looking at isolated statements and incidences, why not look at
> > what they were all trying to achieve. How many of them (Goce Delchev,
> > Miladinovi brothers, Paissy Hilandarski, and Dame Gruev, etc. were trying
> > to achieve the Greater Bulgaria? OK, now contrast this with Vancho
> > Mihailov who states in the preface to his four volume opus (which he even
> > suckered Macedonian Americans into financing) that one of his greatest
> > goals in that publication was to prove that Macedonian = Bulgarian.
> >
>
> First, Paisiy, Miladinovi brothers, Goce and Dame made more than "a few
> disparate statements, depending on their audience" to show their devotion
> to the Bulgarian cause, but lets ignore this fact.
You also ignored the point
> Let me ask you a
> direct question. Are the leaders of the KLA and the Kosovo Albanian
> leadership in general fighting for Greater Albania?
The KLA have stated yes, the Kosovo leadership stated no. In fact, there was a
referendum in the shadow government of Rugova for whether they should try to
merge with Albania, having already voted for independence, or maintain autonomy
within Yugoslavia. You might suggest (and remember, as a shadow government
vote, this was all Albanians) that the greater Albanian merge might be the most
popular, but no, autonomy was chosen. Now, of course, they wish more than
autonomy. They want a separate state. Another factor you might wish to think
about is economics, becuase despite the war, there is still a hiher income per
capita than Albania, last I read. Additionally, Kosvars are coming to realize
their differences. They have, according to a talk by Victor Friedman, a new
radio station in the local as opposed to the formal, official, foreign Albanian
language. People have overwhelmingly voted for Rugova and his nonviolent party
and never voted in the UCK
> Some people say yes,
> I think not. Does this made make them less Albanian? The truth is that we
> will never know for certain what was in heads of these men but the
> totality of their actions speaks for itself! I am absolutely sure, that
> if Mihaylov did not live so long,
and write so much
> and did not leave such a prolific pro-
> Bulgarian record, Macedonists would proclaim him as a great Macedonian
> hero who fought for free Macedonia (WHICH HE DID).
WEll, he was a Macedonian and he did fight for Macedonia.
>
> May be you should consider the possibility that in 1762-1920 there was no
> need to demonstrate the Bulgarian character of the majority of the
> Macedonian population but when Mihaylov wrote his memoirs that was no
> longer the case.
THe Bulgarians offered the Macedonians:
1. An instant way out of the Greek liturgy and taxes
2. Non Serb brotherhood
G Schneider
ivay...@my-deja.com wrote:
Here are a couple of articles by the authority on Hilandar Monastery. We do
know he wrote the history in 1762 and a monk generally had to be at least 18 and
able to have grown a beard before entering, so he had to be, if he was hirsute
enough, at least 18 plus 17, or 35, so he was not approximately 35, rather we
would presume him to be A MINIMUM 35 frm the data. Maybe someone could get hold
of the Kiril and Metodi volume and take a look at the second aritcle, which
might illumine us. :
Matejic, Mateja, "Hilandar at the Time of Paisij Hilendarski: 1745-1773."
Palaeobulgarica/Starobulgaristika IV (3). Sofia: 1980, 32-44.
Matejic, Mateja, "Novi istoricheski dokumenti za zhivota i smurtta na Paisii
Hilendarski." [New historical documents on the life and death of Paisi
Hilandarski)]Izvestiia na Narodnata biblioteka "Kiril i Metodii" 14 (20). Sofia:
1976, 25-33.
While searching for the articles, a life of Paisi Velikovski was in the mix and
it occured to me that the two of them might have met since some of the years on
Athos of each famous Paisi coincided. I was surprised to note that Paisi
Velckovski was half Jewish, which is pretty interesting becuase I think his
father was a deacon, although I might have forgotten which kind of cleric his
father was. It is pretty cool that they were both born in the same year. I am
putting a short version of his life here for those who are unfamiliar and a long
one of Paisi Velichkovski who is pretty unknown unless you are into hesychast
theology :) Here is the other Paisi:
[from a lBulgarian website. Note that Bansko is a Macedonian town] Father
Paisi (*1722) Father Paisi, monk from Hilendar monastery on Athos mountain.
Paisi was born in Bansko in 1722 and came to Hilendar in 1745. As a monk he
travelled a lot on official business for the monastery, and achieved good
insight in the living conditions of ordinary people in the Bulgarian. In the
1760's he combined this insight with the history of former Bulgarian days of
glory to write the very popular history work 'A Slavonic-Bulgarian History of
Peoples, Tsars, Saints, and of all their Deeds and of the Bulgarian Way of
Life.' His student,
Sofronii Vrachanski.....
Paissy Velichkovsky (1722-1794)
Paissy Velichkovsky (1722-1794), born in Poltava came , came of a family of
"hereditary" Orthodox priests; but his mother was the granddaughter of Mandia, a
devout jew. Paissy become a novice, set out to find a starets willing to
instruct him. For years he wandered through Ukraine (the country of his birth),
and Moldavia (the Promise Land of many russian monks in those years when
tsardom hampered monasticism in Rusia (Peter the Great "reforms"n.n.) and the
turks crushed Orthodoxy in Greece). He was proffesed at Medvediev, but could
still find no starets and in 1746 at last arrived at Athos, to settle there. In
spite of his spiritual loneliness his reputation for insight and learning grew
and, eventually, others begged him to give guidance to them.
In 1758, at the age of 36, he consented to be ordained, giving in to the
insistent prayers of his disciples and to the reiterated advice of the older
monks.
After he and his 15 disciples had put up the 16 huts of the Skete of St. Elijah,
it became more generally known that he founded his instruction on the Jesus
Prayer and on a detailed, profound knowledge of heretical interpretations of
Holy Writ. At last in 1763 hardships, occasioned by the turkish fiscal system,
induced him and his 50 monks to leave Athos and settle in the Dragomirna, on the
frontier between Moldavia and Bukovina. The new foundation adopted the rule of
Athos. Paissy devoted his days to the economic and spiritual life of the
monastery, and reserved his nights for literary work: the comparing of the greek
and slavonic texts, and the retranslating of such as were too inaccurate to be
worth correcting. One of his monks was at the same time translating the Fathers
into romanian.
Paissy had started comparing and correcting texts while still at Athos; his
insistence on a deeper and fuller understanting of the Scriptures and the
Fathers led him to it. But manuscripts in greek were difficult to come by; most
of these he acquired only a short time before he left, and his more important
translations were undertaken later.
Translations, however were not his only contributions, to Eastern Christian
thought during his Dragomirna years. In 1763 he wrote a book in 6 chapters on
the Jesus Prayer (a detailed and careful apologia of the practice), and in 1766
a long letter to the priest Demetrius (an important exposition of the rule of
poverty, obedience and love, which was followed at St. Elijah's and at
Dragomirna).
To the distress of Paissy and his monks, their quiet, studious life soon came to
an end: from 1766 to 1778 Moldavia was the battlefield of Russia, Turkey, and
Austria; Paissy at once opened the monastery gates to the wounded, and to women
and children seeking refuge.
The war over, Austria exacted from Turkey a piece of territory which included
Dragomirna. Paissy and his 350 monks fearing life under Austrian rule at a time
when Uniate contentions were bitter, accepted the hospitality offered them by
the Abbot of Sekoul, another Moldavian monastery.
But their sejourn at Sekoul was even shorter: Paissy arrived there in the autumn
of 1775 and, almost at once, resolved to organise a school of translations; many
studious monks gathered round him living four, five and six in one cell.
When the Voda of Moldavia, Prince Moruzi, heard of this enthuiasm and these
conditions, he respectfully insisted on Paissy and most of his monks moving to
the great monastery of Neamt, founded in the XIV-th century. Paissy, after
hesitating for a while, consented to do so in June 1779.
The Neamt school of translators and copyists quickly gained the repurtation it
deserved.Former translations from greek into romanian were amateurish, haphazard
and inaccurate. Paissy now trained his monks to compare texts in several
languages. He also insisted on their inserting marginal notes which explained
the translaitor's reason for his choice of one rendering, and included most of
the rejected ones.
Another important innovation introduced by him at Neamt was the frequent reading
of the Gospels and the singing of Hymns in Greek, Slavonic, Romanian and
Russian, during church services.
Soon his repurtation for learning and sanctity reached even the turks, who often
allowed men hurrying to and from Neamt to pass on their way withoutn showing
their permits, or answering the usual questions.
In Russia interest in the school was considerable, and many russian novices and
monks went there; returning to their country they imparted to their monasteries
Paissy's admiration for the rule of Atos, his devotion to the tradition of the
Desert, his ideals and ideas.
Paissy Velichkovsky's translation of Isaac The Syrian into Slavonic is regarded
as his most important literary work; it was completed in 1787. But his lifelong
fight for the recognition of the Jesus Prayer, waged against such monks of
Athos, Moldavia, and Russia as spurned it, is of equal importance.
In 1781 war once again broke out. Austrians and turks swept over Moldavia,
advancing and retreating in turns, until the russians, led by Potemkin, occupied
Iassy. In 1790, Ambrose (Archbishop of Poltava, attached to Potemkin's suite)
visited Neamt, gave his official approval to the bond already established
between Russian monasticism and the Moldavian monastery, and conferred on Paissy
the dignitity of archimandrite.
Paissy died on November 15, 1794, aged 72, and almost blind. He is revered in
the Orthodox East as a judicious regenerator of monasticism and a
costientientious writer and translator; and he is loved as starets, as one who
had acquired the art of consoling and guiding men and had tried to pass on his
wisdom to others.
Reference:
Russian letters of direction 1834-1860
Macarius, Starets of Optino
St. Vladimir's Seminary Press, 1975
Krasimir Yalamov
> KY ass wrote
> > Cow, no cow is 'somebody'.
> But it doesn't change the truth:
>
> KY wrote
> > I'd like that somebody explains the earliest when and how
> > of the Macedonian revival.
>
> Sure.
[irrelevant as usual]
> from: Spirit Of The Real Makedon
> (using June's e-mail to communicate to you)!
Here is your real chance:
When and how began the Cow's revival?
la...@my-deja.com
in Macedonia the Bukgarians would have been something else.
la...@my-deja.com
1912 <unitema...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> In article <95dil0$7m5$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> la...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
> > lele lele. Bugarite bile pogolemi Srbi od Srbite. izgleda da ne
bea
> > Makedoncite Bugarite ushte kje bea Srbi. kade e sega Vasko da
> prochita?
>
>
> Kazi Laci, kakov prekar mu dadoja na toj so go pobedi Samoil?
>
> V.
shto e tolku vazhno toa. ako Samoil nasledol bugarsko carstvo i nosel
bugarska kruna normalno deka i prekarot kje bil takov.
>
> --
> The world will forget the Macedonian Holocaust at it's
> peril and the perpertrators of it will one day beg for
> forgiveness at the pain of revolutionary justice......
>
> http://members.xoom.com/_XMCM/knigi_en/am/index.html
1912
Those Macedonians revolutionaries who fought for an independent
Macedonia did not by that action negate the historical ethnic oness of
Macedonians/Bulgarians.
V.
--
The world will forget the Macedonian Holocaust at it's
peril and the perpertrators of it will one day beg for
forgiveness at the pain of revolutionary justice......
http://members.xoom.com/_XMCM/knigi_en/am/index.html
Sent via Deja.com
http://www.deja.com/
G Schneider
1912 wrote:
Neither did they see a greater Bulgaria as their focus. That was my point
which Ivajlo sidestepped.
ivay...@my-deja.com
Quite possibly, but I don’t see how this furthers your (Macedonist)
cause.
Ivaylo.
ivay...@my-deja.com
It looks to me that somehow we mostly agree on this topic. There is
only one point of disagreement that I would like to emphasize. You
say “The Bulgarians offered the Macedonians: ...” but this again
assumes some kind of victimization of the “Macedonians” by
the “Bulgarians”. In realty Macedonians (the educated) were ACTIVE
participants in the Bulgarian national reawakening and in the Bulgarian
liberation struggles. One can just as well(and as absurdly) argue that
the people of Bulgaria are the victims of “bugaromanstvoto na
Makedoncite”. If you look at Bulgaria today you will see that even now
the biggest Bulgarian nationalists are exactly the descendants of
Macedonian immigrants i.e. the members of the VMRO.
Pozdrav,
Ivaylo.
June R Harton
But it doesn't change the truth. and your stupidities will never
change it. Learn to love it.
:)
Kr ass wrote
> I'd like that somebody explains the earliest when and how
> of the
"Macedonian"
> revival.
Sure. Here:
Kuzman Anastasov Shapkarev
The Name Macedonians
from: Spirit Of The Real Makedon
(using June's e-mail to communicate to you)!
........The heart of Macedonia was always Greek
la...@my-deja.com
Krasimir Yalamov
[...]
> from: Spirit Of The Real Fart
ivay...@my-deja.com
Well the idea of “Greater Bulgaria” arose only after the Berlin
Congress so Paisiy and Miladinovi are out of the loop. Goce and Dame
most likely did not fight for Velika B’lgaria (or so their surviving
writings would suggest) but they and their followers did not fight
against it either (even as they fought against Greek and Serbian
interests in Macedonia). The only two on my list that can be accused
of “velikobugarstvo” are T. Akeksandrov and I. Mihaylov but even they
saw Velika B’lgaria as only one of two acceptable solutions for
Macedonia’s freedom (the second being the current solution).
Ivaylo.
ivay...@my-deja.com
la...@my-deja.com wrote:
> In article <95ggjk$mmb$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> ivay...@my-deja.com wrote:
....
> > > >
> > > I got it but i don't know if you got it. if not for the
> bugaromanstvo
> > > in Macedonia the Bukgarians would have been something else.
> >
> > Quite possibly, but I don’t see how this furthers your (Macedonist)
> > cause.
> >
> > Ivaylo.
> >
> the point is that people can sometimes erroneously adopt names.
>
Erroneosly? Well, then consider the fact that ALL currently known
nations are the result of such "erronenous" events.
June R Harton
Gail Schneider the schismatic non-Othodox heretic wrote
> Here are a couple of articles by the authority on Hilandar Monastery. >We
do know
Your knowledge Gail is full of holes.
As I said to Krass:
But it doesn't change the truth. and your stupidities will never
change it. Learn to love it.
:)
Here:
Kuzman Anastasov Shapkarev
The Name Macedonians
from: Spirit of Truth
June R Harton
> Neither did they see a greater Bulgaria as their focus.
>That was my point which Ivajlo sidestepped.
Quit your crazy B/S Gail. you will be allowed to deceive noone.
She also posted the following two lies:
> > the Macedonian Holocaust
June R Harton
<la...@my-deja.com> wrote
> the point is that people can sometimes erroneously adopt names.
Now you have admitted that, Lackie of Gai,l let's show the folks out there
the real erroneous name that has since been adopted:
Here:
Kuzman Anastasov Shapkarev
The Name Macedonians
from: Spirit of Truth
June R Harton
Lackie of Gail posted the fokllowing 2 lies:
>Macedonian Holocaust
It is time for you Fyromians to stop lying to people:
Kuzman Anastasov Shapkarev
The Name Macedonians
from: Spirit Of The Real Makedon
(using June's e-mail to communicate to you)!
........The heart of Macedonia was always Greek
June R Harton
<ivay...@my-deja.com> wrote
>You say "The Bulgarians offered the Macedonians: ..."
And that is where the period should fall and the statement made THAT
there was NO Macedonia for the folks there and they were Macedonian
nothing but simply Bulgarians, your kin.
June R Harton
Gail Schneider the consumate commie-minded whore to
history and truth wrote
> > if Mihaylov did not live so long,
> > Bulgarian record, Macedonists would proclaim him as a great
> > Macedonian hero who fought for free Macedonia (WHICH HE DID).
> WEll, he was a Macedonian
He was Macedonian nothing, liar.
> THe Bulgarians offered the Macedonians:
They offerered the Macedonians (Greeks) nothing.
Shut your stupid lies.
Here:
June R Harton
"1912" the half madman wrote
> Those Macedonians revolutionaries who fought for an independent
> Macedonia did not by that action negate the historical ethnic oness of
> Macedonians/Bulgarians.
They were NOT Macedonians but West Bulgarians and the 'Macedonia'
and 'Macedonians' things was a Bulgarian scam. Your lying about this
and the following two lies will not be allowed to deceive anyone.
>the Macedonian Holocaust
June R Harton
But it doesn't change the truth. And your stupidities will never
:)
"Macedonian"
> revival.
Sure. Here:
Kuzman Anastasov Shapkarev
The Name Macedonians
from: Spirit Of The Real Makedon
(using June's e-mail to communicate to you)!
........The heart of Macedonia was always Greek
Stephan Nikolov
> The KLA have stated yes, the Kosovo leadership stated no. In fact, there
was a
> referendum in the shadow government of Rugova for whether they should try
to
> merge with Albania, having already voted for independence, or maintain
autonomy
> within Yugoslavia. You might suggest (and remember, as a shadow
government
> vote, this was all Albanians) that the greater Albanian merge might be the
most
> popular, but no, autonomy was chosen. Now, of course, they wish more than
> autonomy. They want a separate state. Another factor you might wish to
think
> about is economics, becuase despite the war, there is still a hiher income
per
> capita than Albania, last I read. Additionally, Kosvars are coming to
realize
> their differences. They have, according to a talk by Victor Friedman, a
new
> radio station in the local as opposed to the formal, official, foreign
Albanian
> language. People have overwhelmingly voted for Rugova and his nonviolent
party
> and never voted in the UCK
Lelelelelelelele!!!! Galina - now I really understand the position of June
R. Harton about you.
I am amused!!!! I hope you do not underplay the fact that the Kosovars in
question are Albanians - as much Albanians, as
Sali Berisha is, as a matter of fact! Your idol (along with Lunt, no doubt)
Victor Friedman must know quite well that the Ghek dialect used by Pristina
radio Station is Albanian Langiage!
The merge of the Kosovo and Albania is impossible for the time being not
because the Kossovars are less Albanians than the ,say the Gheks, from
Albania proper.
Behind the policy of autonomy there are several factors.
1. Any other stand would have been impossible. The international community,
i.e. your country would not support an openly irredentist claim. "Greater"
Albania, "Greater" aka "United" Macedonia, "Greater Bulgaria" are not
possible now in the Balkans. Milosevic failure to acheive greater Serbia is
the best evidence for that as well as all the difficulties with the
unification between Moldavia and Roumania.
2. Kossovo as an UN protectorate, where the USA are building the greatest
millitary base since Vietnam is economically much better off than Albania
proper.
So, the autonomy, and the possible independence is the best course for the
time being. The people are free and have been generously sponsored by the
west. The border with Albania was untill recently virtually non-existant, so
there was no problem in the reunion of families living on the both sides of
the border. Moreover, Kossovo itself is viewed, especially by the people
surrounding Rugova, as a sort of Pietmond of the Albanians in the Balkans.
Given the fact, that Albania proper is ruled now by the ex-communists, who
are generally linked with the south, and it was precisely they who ousted
berisha, who sponsored KLA, the course for autonomy is not surprising.
But hey, I warned two years ago, that Clinton spoke of the "Kossovar people"
hence the "Kossovar people" have to appear. ... this is the logic of the
post-modern understanding of nation and ethnicity.
SN
Stephan Nikolov
> > > I got it but i don't know if you got it. if not for the
> bugaromanstvo
> > > in Macedonia the Bukgarians would have been something else.
> >
> > Quite possibly, but I don't see how this furthers your (Macedonist)
> > cause.
> >
> > Ivaylo.
> >
> the point is that people can sometimes erroneously adopt names.
>
Sure. So, let us draw the bottom line here:
the Slavic speaking people in Macedonia erraneously adopted the name
"Bulgarians" - so for about 1000 years, when actually the Slavic speaking
people from Moeasia and Thrace had done the same.
Moreover, those from Macedonia were so stubborn in their error that they
spread the name on those people in Moesia and Thrace who, erraneously or
not, did not identify that way. Key figures in this process were the clergy
from the region, most notably the Orthodox priests from Rila, and the
Catholic priests from Sofia, Samokov, Skopje and Ihtiman. The process
culminated with Paisii.
Now, however, you have realised your error and have corrected.
How nice, eh?
SN
Stef
> > > Those Macedonians revolutionaries who fought for an independent
> > > Macedonia did not by that action negate the historical ethnic oness
> of
> > > Macedonians/Bulgarians.
> >
> > Neither did they see a greater Bulgaria as their focus. That was my
> point
> > which Ivajlo sidestepped.
> >
> Well the idea of "Greater Bulgaria" arose only after the Berlin
> Congress so Paisiy and Miladinovi are out of the loop. Goce and Dame
> most likely did not fight for Velika B'lgaria (or so their surviving
> writings would suggest) but they and their followers did not fight
> against it either (even as they fought against Greek and Serbian
> interests in Macedonia). The only two on my list that can be accused
> of "velikobugarstvo" are T. Akeksandrov and I. Mihaylov but even they
> saw Velika B'lgaria as only one of two acceptable solutions for
> Macedonia's freedom (the second being the current solution).
>
> Ivaylo.
Noone ever spoke of "Velika Bulgaria" then. "San Stefano Bulgaria" was the
term.
Here is what the Bulgarian newspaper "Pravo" (Right) , close to BMORK
(Bulgarian Macedono-Odrin Revolutionary Committee) published on 7 June 1902:
"The Bulgars from the Principality (i.e. Bulgaria) - should there be some
who dream of San Stefano Bulgaria, have no reason to defy the Macedonian
population separatism. Irrespective of the harm that the dream of San
Stefano might bring noth now and in the future, these is one essential and
important consequence of this doctrine - the preservation of the Bulgar
tribe - whole, undivided, and bound by their spiritual culture, tghough
separated politically. Without this political separatism, the spiritual
integrity of the Bulgar tribe seems impossible. It is in the interest of the
Principality of Bulgaria not only to support this idea but to continue to
work for its realisation."
It must also be noted that even after the removal of the element "Bulgarian"
from the organisation with the adoption of the name "TMORO" (Secret
Macedonian Odrin Revolutionary Organisation) by Goce Delchev himself does
not indicate any saubstantial change of course, or a tendency for
"narrowing" or "emphacising the Macedonian nationality" as Ristovski and
other Skopje scholars argue.
In fact, the very name suggests that not only Macedonia but also Adrianople
(Odrin) remained the twin target for the organisers of the Ilinden uprising.
I for myself have never seen any claim that Adrianople vilayet was then
inhabited by "Macedonians". And indeed the events from 1903 show that the
rebellion in Strandja was part of the general uprising organised by the
Bulgarians in the Balkan provinces of the Ottoman empire.
SN
Krasimir Yalamov
The worst evidence for that.
Voyager
http://www.hri.org/docs/macque/
http://www.cc.ece.ntua.gr/~conster/PageData/list_of_inscriptions.htm
http://www.ancientgreece.com/
http://www.fhw.gr/chronos/06/en/politics/top/top000.html
http://www.macedonia.com/greek/
http://cal044202.student.utwente.nl/~marsares/history/index.html
MACEDONIA MEANS GREECE
Well again !!!!!!!!!!!
I think I have to make a history lesson which is part of
every good ELEMENTARY school around the world !!!!!
When we are talking about Macedonians we are talking
about Greek people and the history of them starts the 6th
again the 6th century BEFORE Christ !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The Macedonians were Dorians as the Spartans were.
Macedon it's a Greek name and it means tall-man.
They were speaking Greek, having Greek education Greek
religion, Greek costumes, Greek names, and they were the
part of the Greeks who achieve to unified all the Greeks together.
Also a lot's of the greatest minds of the antiquity expect the
political and military leaders were Macedonians.like the
Aristotel and many-many others.
Alexander and Aristotel were THE Greeks as All the Macedonians
of course. If you want more just read the Aristotel.
At the Byzantine times the greatest and longest dynasty of
emperors were the Macedonian dynasty, they also were Greeks
them language was the Greek etc.
The people you call "Macedonians" are SLAVS and the Slavs
came to the Balkan's region at the 7th century AFTER Christ !!!!
Some of the emperors of the Macedonian dynasty defend the
the Greek empire of the middle ages (Byzantine) in many wars
against the Slavs who were trying to invade into it.
Now we learn that Slavs can't be Macedonians for all these reasons
above.
One more time in summary.
1) Macedonians history starts at the 6th century BEFORE Christ.
2) So called Macedonians(Slavs)history starts at 7th century
AFTER Christ. 1100 years of distance !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
3) Macedonians language was always the GREEK !!!!!!!!!!!!!
4) So called Macedonians language is Slavonic very similar to
Bulgarian language.
Now about the latest history.
The Republic of Macedonia was a Tito's creation and it had to
do with his plans to come down to the Aegean sea.
Tito name this part of the formal Yugoslavia as Macedonia after
the second world war for this reason.
The name of this country before that was Bardarska Banovina.
Of course Titto change everything since then and he started teaching
the kids of this country that they come from Alexander the Great
and they are the great Macedonians for the reason above.
After the fall of the communism in Europe the Americans having
many interests and plants for the region pushed things for the
independence of all the formal Yugoslavia federal countries.
They used Macedonia as a tool to blackmail Greece and to
achieve to push Greece to give them the things they wanted
the way they wanted.
Like the issue of the new NATO military bases in Greece the
oils of the Aegean sea, and of course the silence and cooperation
of Greece during the Bosnian and Kosovo wars, which was the
major targets of the USA in it's effort to put it's foots into the Balkans.
There was even CIA agents around this area those years who trying
to find very poor people and they offered them 10000$ to each
person to sign that they are not Greeks but........."Macedonians".:-)))))
The....."Agency" !!!!!
The operation of the CIA to find in northern Greece co-called Macedonians
(Slavs) started at Jen 1994 and the head was the vice-consul of the
American consulate of Thesaloniki David Shuler.
David Shuler except of a vice-consul he was also a CIA official with
specialty in the destabilization of countries and regimes.
Of course this operation was under the knowledge and the protection
of the consul Mrs Myriam Hughes and the ambassador of the American
Embassy of Athens Thomas Nils.
At January 1994 David Shuler met at the only cafe of a small village
outside Florina (Meliti) some Slavs and give them 100000$ and orders
to work on this project finding "Macedonians" (Slavs) in Greece.
Those persons were P.Voscou, Z.Bulef, I. Pasov, D.Dumutriou.
Those 100000$ was the reward of these 4 persons for their work on
this operation.
After this Shuler and his assistants traveled all around Northern Greece
and they found some people (old the most of them and, very poor, and
with less of without education at all), and he persuade them that some
of their grandfathers were "Macedonian" :-))))) giving them 10000$
He give them to sing a paper in Greek and in English which the most of
them were unable to read.
He took all these papers and he send it to the State Department.
The Greek authorities used to follow all the actions of Shuler's team, from
the beginning until the end, but they didn't arrested him for obvious
reasons.
Shuler also after this job he worked in Thrace and he did terrible things
there.
Some time and when Shulers activities became to extraordinary, and
very dangerous, the Greek government call the consul Hughes and ask her
to stop these activities of Shuler.
M.Hughes answer that Shuler is a young man and he has no experience
and he did some bad and wrong things etc.
You know the usual bullshit.
Now about the future
If you are watching the news you should know that after the end of the
war in Kosovo Greece buy everything inside F.Y.R.O.M. even the
central bank of this country, of course under the oversight of the
Americans.
I'm sure that there will be absolutely no problem between the
Greece and the F.Y.R.O.M and i think that the people of this
country are smart enough to understand that Greece is the best
ally for them as Greece never thread them.
On the contrary Albanians and Bulgars used to thread them a lot.
There's no hard feelings about the people of FYROM in Greece
and i think that they are starting to understand that all these are some
of the idiotic things Titto and some stupid nationalists put them in
the head.
There's still some people like this and they used to say this stupid
things which are ridiculous, and that's a problem but i think it will
not be a serious one, i don't think that they are SO stupid !!!!!!!!!!
I'm sure that the people and the politicians of FYROM knows that,
so the future will be excellent for both sides.
Balkans need the peace and i'm sure that's what the Fyromian
people need and want.
Voyager.
I feel pity sometimes, for the people who
read one or more newspapers, and they think
that they know what really happens in the world.
Thomas Jefferson
Former U.S. President.
Friendly
Voyager.
Voyager
G Schneider
Stephan Nikolov wrote:
"G Schneider" <oh...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
>Lelelelelelelele!!!! Galina - now I really understand the position of June
R. Harton about you.
Please do not join the fan club. Only so much shadowing and
obsessive/compulsive behaviors can be tolerated by any one individual.
I am amused!!!! I hope you do not underplay the fact that the Kosovars in
question are Albanians - as much Albanians, as
Sali Berisha is, as a matter of fact!
I was only talking about Albanians, without realizing I hadn't
mentioned anyone else. Similarly, over twenty years ago I wrote a
paper on the architecture of Kosovo, and from the perspective of an Orthodox
person in America, I had unjustly never really considered that I might
look at anything except Serbian architecture. And I had been there,
and set in many an outdoor coffee shop where all the clientele was Albanian.
But, being Orthodox, I had no curiosity about Albanians except to have
noted in one document or two that there were always Albanians in Kosovo
as some of the earliest names of this and that deacon or caregiving starista
was an Albanian. My only fleeting curiosity was the persistence of
their language, in Bosnia, is Croatia, in Macedonia, in Kosovo. And
of course, the persistence of the most ancient Christian melodies and the
unique harmonies of the male singing.
Your idol (along with Lunt, no doubt)
Victor Friedman must know quite well that the Ghek dialect used by Pristina
radio Station is Albanian Langiage!
No one ever said we weren't talking about Albanian, only that I
was talking abut a different political backgrounds and a continuing difference
in conditions. And. evidently , a suppression of the local language
in service of standardization of the language.
The merge of the Kosovo and Albania is impossible for the time being not
because the Kossovars are less Albanians than the ,say the Gheks, from
Albania proper.
Behind the policy of autonomy there are several factors.
1. Any other stand would have been impossible. The international community,
i.e. your country would not support an openly irredentist claim. "Greater"
Albania, "Greater" aka "United" Macedonia, "Greater Bulgaria" are not
possible now in the Balkans.
of course this is impossible
Milosevic failure to acheive greater Serbia is
the best evidence for that as well as all the difficulties with the
unification between Moldavia and Roumania.
2. Kossovo as an UN protectorate, where the USA are building the greatest
millitary base since Vietnam is economically much better off than Albania
proper.
I've stated that here separately.
So, the autonomy, and the possible independence is the best course for the
time being. The people are free and have been generously sponsored by the
west. The border with Albania was untill recently virtually non-existant, so
there was no problem in the reunion of families living on the both sides of
the border. Moreover, Kossovo itself is viewed, especially by the people
surrounding Rugova, as a sort of Pietmond of the Albanians in the Balkans.
Given the fact, that Albania proper is ruled now by the ex-communists, who
are generally linked with the south, and it was precisely they who ousted
berisha, who sponsored KLA, the course for autonomy is not surprising.
But hey, I warned two years ago, that Clinton spoke of the "Kossovar people"
hence the "Kossovar people" have to appear. ... this is the logic of the
post-modern understanding of nation and ethnicity.
There are/were some unique Kosovar peopleS, but now....they are
gone or almost tooo stressed and soon going.
SN
June R Harton
"Stephan Nikolov" wrote
> Sure. So, let us draw the bottom line here:
> the Slavic speaking people in Macedonia erraneously adopted the name
> "Bulgarians" - so for about 1000 years, when actually the Slavic speaking
> people from Moeasia and Thrace had done the same.
> Moreover, those from Macedonia were so stubborn in their error that they
> spread the name on those people in Moesia and Thrace who, erraneously or
> not, did not identify that way. Key figures in this process were the
clergy
> from the region, most notably the Orthodox priests from Rila, and the
> Catholic priests from Sofia, Samokov, Skopje and Ihtiman. The process
> culminated with Paisii.
> Now, however, you have realised your error and have corrected.
> How nice, eh?
Stef, you know IF you started writuing the REAL names used in the areas
your text would have the impact of truth.
When you talk about a non-existent Macedonia it only has partial
impact and at the same time _feeds_ their stupid revisionism.
from: Spirit of Truth
June R Harton
Gail Schneider the filth and compulsive commie-minded
liar wrote Stephan Nikolov wrote:"G Schneider" <oh...@my-deja.com> wrote in message>Lelelelelelelele!!!! Galina - now I really understand the position of June
R. Harton about you.
"Please do not join the fan club. Only so much shadowing and obsessive/compulsive behaviors can be tolerated by any oneindividual".
Gail, have you ever considered the idea that a person can live without
lying?
Try it!
I am amused!!!! I hope you do not underplay the fact that the Kosovars in
question are Albanians - as much Albanians, as
Sali Berisha is, as a matter of fact!
"I was only talking about Albanians, without realizing I hadn't mentioned anyone else. Similarly, over twenty years ago I wrote a paper on the architecture of Kosovo,"
Bwahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
"and from the perspective of an Orthodox person in America, I .."
Orthodox?! BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
You Gail are anything but Orthodox...you are a schismatic heretic
and no decent person associates with the likes of you but to beg
you to repent your evil.
"My only fleeting curiosity was the persistence of their language, in Bosnia, is Croatia, in Macedonia,..."
FYROM, FILTH.
Stef
>
> Stef, you know IF you started writuing the REAL names used in the areas
> your text would have the impact of truth.
>
> When you talk about a non-existent Macedonia it only has partial
> impact and at the same time _feeds_ their stupid revisionism.
Hmmm.... you know, we live in the age of postmodernism.
The image is reality.
SN
Stef
> Hence Otec Paisij started the Bulgarian national revival in 1762,
> reminding the Slavs/Bulgarians of their greatest earlier times -
> when the Bulgarians had their state, church and language
> well recognized and influential.
"Started"?
"Marked", will be better, perhaps. As a matter of fact, Paisii is not an
isolated case.
Nikolaj Genchev, in his book "The Bulgarian Revival", rightly notes (or
rather echoes Boian Penev's History of the Modern Bulgarian Literature) that
Paisii's history was not unique for his time (see for instance the history
written by Ziezi's favourite Spiridon), neither he was the first to write in
the vernacular Bulgarian as opoosed to Church Slavonic( there are
Miscellanies known as "Damascenes" in Bulgarian that predate Paisii). The
combination, however, was explosive. The history was copied and tranmitted
by hand, and kept in the altars of the churches.
> I'd like that somebody explains the earliest when and how
> of the Macedonian revival.
Well, the Macedonian "Renaissance" is usually dated 10th century and the
reign of Constantine VII Porphyrogenitus is normally thought to be the peak.
SN
Stef
> May be you should consider the possibility that in 1762-1920 there was no
> need to demonstrate the Bulgarian character of the majority of the
> Macedonian population but when Mihaylov wrote his memoirs that was no
> longer the case.
>
She should not.
Already in 1910 Dimityr Rizov, then Bulgarian ambassador in Rome, engaged
himself in polemics on the
national characteristics on these people with the followers of Jovan Cvijic.
SN
Krasimir Yalamov
> "Krasimir Yalamov" <yal...@att.net> wrote in message
>
> > Hence Otec Paisij started the Bulgarian national revival in 1762,
> > reminding the Slavs/Bulgarians of their greatest earlier times -
> > when the Bulgarians had their state, church and language
> > well recognized and influential.
>
> "Started"?
> "Marked", will be better, perhaps. As a matter of fact, Paisii is not an
> isolated case.
> Nikolaj Genchev, in his book "The Bulgarian Revival", rightly notes (or
> rather echoes Boian Penev's History of the Modern Bulgarian Literature) that
> Paisii's history was not unique for his time (see for instance the history
> written by Ziezi's favourite Spiridon), neither he was the first to write in
> the vernacular Bulgarian as opoosed to Church Slavonic( there are
> Miscellanies known as "Damascenes" in Bulgarian that predate Paisii). The
> combination, however, was explosive. The history was copied and tranmitted
> by hand, and kept in the altars of the churches.
OK. It would also be interesting to explore for Russian influence
in the process in light of the Russian presence in/around Hilendar Monastery.
> > I'd like that somebody explains the earliest when and how
> > of the Macedonian revival.
>
> Well, the Macedonian "Renaissance" is usually dated 10th century and the
> reign of Constantine VII Porphyrogenitus is normally thought to be the peak.
At least 3 lines of exploration:
Constantinople, Greek Macedonians, Slavic Macedonians...
Stef
Oh, the Russian influence is well explored, as a matter of fact. It was
already Marin Drinov in 1870, who noted that two of the major sources of
Paisii, the Histories of Mauro Orbini ( Ragusian, that is Dubrovnik friar,
and Caesar Baronius (a Roman Cardinal) were known to Paisii from their
Russian translations. It is is also not surprising that according to Paisii,
the Bulgarians were Slavs.... originally from the vicinity of Moscow.
The Russian presence in Mt Athos is also well studied. It was massive,
indeed, which should not be surpring given the fact that in the 18th century
Russia at least 6 times gives substantial donations to monks from the Holy
Mountain.
> > > I'd like that somebody explains the earliest when and how
> > > of the Macedonian revival.
> >
> > Well, the Macedonian "Renaissance" is usually dated 10th century and the
> > reign of Constantine VII Porphyrogenitus is normally thought to be the
peak.
>
> At least 3 lines of exploration:
> Constantinople, Greek Macedonians, Slavic Macedonians...
Well, that Macedonian Renaissnce has nothing to do with the ancient Greek
Macedonians or Skopje. This is a revival in literacy and the arts under the
Macedonian dynasty in Byzantium which was called Macedonian because the
founder of the dynasty, Basil I came from the Theme Macedonia, then centered
in Adrianople (now Edirne, Turkey). The Theme Macedonia NEVER comprised
truly Macedonian lands.
SN
la...@my-deja.com
and Bulgarians. to him all the Bulgarian kings were Slav. he confused
everyone after him. but you in the 21 century should now better then
him.
Stef
> Paisij, out of ignorance or on purpose, saw no difference between Slavs
> and Bulgarians. to him all the Bulgarian kings were Slav. he confused
> everyone after him. but you in the 21 century should now better then
> him.
Well, Paisii was following a millenium old tradition that florished in the
land.
Already Theophylact Ochridski does not make difference between Slavs and
Bulgars when speaking of the past.
For his they were "Bulgarians"
SN
1912
Makedon - Vistinski <mak...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> Abre Laci, toj, "Vasko" - "Velikipeder Majmunski" (VM), e teshko
> zarazen od tatarskata chuma - bugaromaniaturkomongolitis!
Nemoj da lazis be. Ne go prifatuvaam Bugarizmot.
Simptomite na
> taa zaraza se samo-negerianje na svojata nacija i janicharsko
> sluguvanje vo redovite (prvite) na dushmanite protiv svojata nacija!
Dusman sum na lagi.
> Eden od simptomite na vakva teshka zaraza e da nemozhe da se misli i
da
> se gleda so razum, ZA ZHAL!
Mislam neprekinato.
PONEKOGASH, SE ZBORUVA DEKA EDEN GOLEM
> KJOTEK MOZHEL DA POMOGNE VO IZLEKUVANJETO OD
> BUGAROMANIATURKOMONGOLITIS! :-) AKO GO NAJDAM KOPILEVO, KJE PROBAM DA
> IM POMOGNAM DA SE IZLECHI! BRATSKI I SO ZADOVOLSTVO KJE MU DADAM KOLKU
> K__TEK SI SAKA, ILI TREBA, SAMO DA SE IZLECHE! hehehe...:-)
Aj kazi oti toa go rechiv. Nemoj da gi kinish debatite. Celo kupna
klaja taa debata ovde vo koje go rechiv toa
V.
--
E = MB x 4
(Ethnic Group = Common Denominators = Macedonians/Bulgarians =
Language, Culture, History, Race)
G Schneider
June R Harton
"Stef" <ste...@balkania.com> wrote> > Stef, you know IF you started writing the REAL names used in the areas
> > your text would have the impact of truth.
> > When you talk about a non-existent Macedonia it only has partial
> > impact and at the same time _feeds_ their stupid revisionism.
> Hmmm.... you know, we live in the age of postmodernism.
> The image is reality.
Then recreate the true image yourself and make it reality.
from: Spirit Of The Real Makedon
(using June's e-mail to communicate to you)!
........The heart of Macedonia was always Greek
> SN
la...@my-deja.com
"Stephan Nikolov" <stephan...@history.oxford.ac.uk> wrote:
other priests may have been. it was Paisij who out of ignorance or for
another reason confused the issue. he claimed that Bulgarian = Slav,
the first Bulgarian kings were Slav according to him. many followed
Paisij one century later, when the Panslavic idea was gathering
momentum.
second time
Ziezi
"Stef" <ste...@balkania.com> wrote:
> "Krasimir Yalamov" <yal...@att.net> wrote in message
>
> > Hence Otec Paisij started the Bulgarian national revival in 1762,
> > reminding the Slavs/Bulgarians of their greatest earlier times -
> > when the Bulgarians had their state, church and language
> > well recognized and influential.
>
> "Started"?
> "Marked", will be better, perhaps. As a matter of fact, Paisii is not an
> isolated case.
> Nikolaj Genchev, in his book "The Bulgarian Revival", rightly notes (or
> rather echoes Boian Penev's History of the Modern Bulgarian Literature) that
> Paisii's history was not unique for his time (see for instance the history
> written by Ziezi's favourite Spiridon),
Syshtestvuva i oshte edna unikalna bylgarska istoria "Istoria vkratce o
bolgaroslovenskom narode", chiito avtor e neizvesten. V naukata e izvestna
pod imeto "Zografska istoria". Zasega tia ne e datirana i e vyzmojno da e
po-ranna ot Paisievata "Istoria Slavianobolgarska".
http://members.tripod.com/~ziezi/zograf/1.htm
V neia otnovo se govori za bylgarite kato za star evropeiski narod.
Mnogo dobre se vryzva s Kratkoto jitie na Kliment Ohridski (Ohridska legenda)
ot XIII vek, v koeto se tvyrdi, che chast ot bylgarite sa jiviali okolo
Maloaziiskia grad Bursa i Maloaziiskata planina Olimp, a Aleksandyr
Makedonski gi e preselil nasever chak do "Severnia okean"(nai veroiatno za da
paziat severnite granici na imperiata mu) . Iz tezi zemi dnes tekat tochno
dve reki VOLGA/VOUGA - Goren i Dolen Bug (na grycki Vouga). Tochno ot tezi
zemi spored srednovekovnite avtori i vyzrojdencite sa doshli Bolgarite. Tova
ne oznachava, che v Rimskata imperia ne sa jiviali Bolgari. Dori naprotiv,
istinskata Bolgarska zemia sa Apeninite, Balkana i Mala Azia.
http://members.tripod.com/~ziezi/kliment/ohridska.htm
Istoriografiata tvyrdi, che po tezi zemi sa jiveli "sakalibi" ("slavianite").
Vsichki arabski iztochnici govoriat za volgokamskite bylgari , che sa
"sakalibi". Sami precenete togava ima li niakakva razlika mejdu "slaviani" i
"prabylgari" ili taia istoria e izmislena po politicheski prichini. Beli
"slaviani" s toiagi - peshaci, i cherni "prabylgari" sys sabi (rejeshti
glavi) - na kone. Smeshno ! Vse edno v Osmanskata imperia haiudutite da gi
pishem "prabylgari" , a porobenoto mirno bylgarsko naselenie da narechem
"slaviani".
Ziezi
Stef
>
> if Father Paisij was the culmination one can only imagine what the
> other priests may have been. it was Paisij who out of ignorance or for
> another reason confused the issue. he claimed that Bulgarian = Slav,
> the first Bulgarian kings were Slav according to him. many followed
> Paisij one century later, when the Panslavic idea was gathering
> momentum.
Well, do you believe that if you come to Sofia you'll meet mongoloid
horsemen on the streets, drinking wine from skulls and conversing in some
altaic language among themselves?
SN
G Schneider
Ziezi wrote:
Syshtestvuva i oshte edna unikalna bylgarska istoria "Istoria vkratce o
bolgaroslovenskom narode", chiito avtor e neizvesten. V naukata e izvestna
pod imeto "Zografska istoria". Zasega tia ne e datirana i e vyzmojno da e
po-ranna ot Paisievata "Istoria Slavianobolgarska".http://members.tripod.com/~ziezi/zograf/1.htm
V neia otnovo se govori za bylgarite kato za star evropeiski narod.
Mnogo dobre se vryzva s Kratkoto jitie na Kliment Ohridski (Ohridska legenda)
ot XIII vek, v koeto se tvyrdi, che chast ot bylgarite sa jiviali okolo
Maloaziiskia grad Bursa i Maloaziiskata planina Olimp, a Aleksandyr
Makedonski gi e preselil nasever chak do "Severnia okean"(nai veroiatno za da
paziat severnite granici na imperiata mu) . Iz tezi zemi dnes tekat tochno
dve reki VOLGA/VOUGA - Goren i Dolen Bug (na grycki Vouga). Tochno ot tezi
zemi spored srednovekovnite avtori i vyzrojdencite sa doshli Bolgarite. Tova
ne oznachava, che v Rimskata imperia ne sa jiviali Bolgari. Dori naprotiv,
istinskata Bolgarska zemia sa Apeninite, Balkana i Mala Azia.
These are both interesting texts , although when i printed them,
they were very fuzzy and hard to read. By the way, do you have the
Greek text of the Akolouthia to'n agio'n eptarithmo'n that includes the
Life of Saint Kliment?
G Schneider
Stef wrote:
Actually, one could expect Paisi to have had a lot of Macedonian influence
since Hilandar in his time had a lot of Macedonians, many of whom are
responsible for all those "West Bulgarian" and "South Serbian" codices in
their MSS collection.
Ilya Talev
No Frau Dr. Schneider! Paisij was born in the
Macedonian town of Bansko.
IT
G Schneider
Ilya Talev wrote:
Yes he was. I'd still like to see some of his History without it first being
translated into Bulgarian. What is the no? - there WERE a lot of Macedonians at
Hilandar and Zografou and Panteleimon during that period.
>
>
> IT
Ilya Talev
Yes, there were indeed. And they called themselves "bugari",
just like the Greeks and the Serbs called them.
IT
P.S. And if you want to ses "some of his History" in original,
order a copy of his book and see it all:
"Paisij Hilendarski. Istorija slavjanobylgarska -
Zografska chernova 1762. Faksimilno izdanie",
Sofija, 1998.
ISBN 954-07-1248-3
John Alep
Which one named this "renaissance" Macedonian ???
Is this term correct ??
John Alep
Macedonia, Greece
"Stef" <ste...@balkania.com> wrote:
> Well, that Macedonian Renaissnce has nothing to do with the ancient Greek
> Macedonians or Skopje. This is a revival in literacy and the arts under
........................
la...@my-deja.com
prevalent. but why not? you seem to be proud of your Bulgarian name
even though there does not seem to be a lot Bulgarian in you.
la...@my-deja.com
Bulgarian translation is available on line. there is a lot of
confusion there and Paisij was supposed to be teaching others.
> >
> >
> > IT
ivay...@my-deja.com
la...@my-deja.com wrote:
...................
> >
> i have not seen the horsemen yet but the mongoloid thinking is
> prevalent. but why not? you seem to be proud of your Bulgarian name
> even though there does not seem to be a lot Bulgarian in you.
I guess you follow our example, calling yourself Macedonian even though there
isn't much Macedonian in you.
Ivaylo.
la...@my-deja.com
ivay...@my-deja.com wrote:
> In article <95nfo0$rqi$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> la...@my-deja.com wrote:
> ...................
> > >
> > i have not seen the horsemen yet but the mongoloid thinking is
> > prevalent. but why not? you seem to be proud of your Bulgarian
name
> > even though there does not seem to be a lot Bulgarian in you.
>
> I guess you follow our example, calling yourself Macedonian even
though there
> isn't much Macedonian in you.
>
you. however, in the worst case, we would appear that we may have
chosen the name of our territory rather than our masters.
Vlatko Cuculoski
koi bea vistinski Bugari tuku mu smetaa Makedonskite?
Ako neznaes jas ke ti kazam zatoa sto i VasilieII i Samuil sakaa da bidat
Makedonski carevi so dve sprotistaveni politiki i idei.
Za primer videte sto se slucuva deneska vo Makedonija i sto stranskite
pisuvaci
zabelezuvaat za toa, koi ne iminja makedoncite ne se narekuvaat izmedju
sebe a kamoli za stranskite pisuvaci.
Ako sakate da napravite od Makedoncite Bugari ste se izlazale, koga nikoj
ne
uspeal do sega nema da uspee ni od sega.
Makedonija na Makedoncite
1912 wrote:
> In article <95dil0$7m5$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> la...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
> > lele lele. Bugarite bile pogolemi Srbi od Srbite. izgleda da ne bea
> > Makedoncite Bugarite ushte kje bea Srbi. kade e sega Vasko da
> prochita?
>
> Procitav.
>
> Kazi Laci, kakov prekar mu dadoja na toj so go pobedi Samoil?
>
> V.
>
> --
> The world will forget the Macedonian Holocaust at it's
> peril and the perpertrators of it will one day beg for
> forgiveness at the pain of revolutionary justice......
>
> http://members.xoom.com/_XMCM/knigi_en/am/index.html
1912
Vlatko Cuculoski <Vlatko.C...@dsto.defence.gov.au> wrote:
> A ti kazi zosto na toj sto go pobedi Samoil ne mu smetaa Bugarskite
knezovi
>
> koi bea vistinski Bugari tuku mu smetaa Makedonskite?
> Ako neznaes jas ke ti kazam zatoa sto i VasilieII i Samuil sakaa da
bidat
> Makedonski carevi so dve sprotistaveni politiki i idei.
> Za primer videte sto se slucuva deneska vo Makedonija i sto stranskite
> pisuvaci
> zabelezuvaat za toa, koi ne iminja makedoncite ne se narekuvaat
izmedju
> sebe a kamoli za stranskite pisuvaci.
>
> Ako sakate da napravite od Makedoncite Bugari ste se izlazale, koga
nikoj
> ne
> uspeal do sega nema da uspee ni od sega.
> Makedonija na Makedoncite
So sakas da velis nema nikogas istorijata da ja smenis = Makedonska
nacija e vestacka tvorba koja e rodena od koga Bugarija zede avtonomija
od Otomskata imperija. Pred togas sne smetavne ist narod so Bugarite.
Koga tie se otcepija nie pocnavne da si mislime zosto sne nie sami i
pocnavne da se mislime kako svoj narod. Ova posebno etnicko misleene ne
bese odma prifateno. Treba da imas razbiraane deka Makedonija vo
9najstiot vek bese mnogu nazad vo sivilizacija so mnogu nepismeni
bufcari koj imaja slabo etnicko poteklo zbok ovie slucnosti.
Makedonizmot bese lesno prifaten od nepismeniot narod deka lesno mozesa
da se razbere od lujgje koj se najdoja sami vo imperija i si baraja
potvreduvaane za zosto beja sami. Idelogija koja veli deka tie se svoj
narod i potekloto nivno et od lujgje koj ziveja na nivnata zemja e
lesno razbereno od narod koj trgna na "nie sne svoj narod deka sne
sami" misleene i koj nemaja vlezeno vo modernata nacionalna era. Ako
Albancite se najdoja vo ist slucaj kako nie Makedonci/Bugari kako
razdeleni pomejgju Tosci i Gegi pred da go prifateli modernoto
nacionalno misleene i tie denes kje bideja dve narodi mesto eden. Tie
imaat kvalifikaci da bidaat dve narodi nego nie Makedonci/Bugari koj
imami nikakvi razlicni nacini. Ako baras ralikuvaane po mejgu Makedonci
i Bugari kje gi najdis isto kako kje gi najdis vo Makedonci od drugi
regioni vo Makedonija i kako kje gi nadis vo Bugari niz delovi na
Bugarija. Ama ako sakas da bidis objektiven i siantifik kje priznaes
deka Slovenskite dialekti vo Makedonija/Moezija/Trakija se edno cvejke
i taka set vo istorija kategorirana od strana na site svetski jazicni
profesori. I kje priznaes deka nasata kultura e ista. Za naseto pleme
istorijata tvrdi deka sne mesan narod so poteklo od site istoricni
narodi koj ziveja vo nasata zemja- Trakieci, Ilirianci, Paeonci,
Makedonci, Romanci, Huni, Kelti, Armenci, Slavi, Bugari itn, itn, itn-i
deka ovie narodi ziveja po reginot Makedonija/Moezija/Trakija i toa
znaci deka i naseto pleme e isto. A pa istorijata za naseto etcniko
poteklo ni kazuva deka Slovenskiot narod vo Makedonija/Moezija/Trakija
go nosese istoto etnicko ime za pojce od iljada godini. Znaci vo jazik,
kultura, pleme i istorija (slicnite principi naj koj etnicki grupi se
formirani) nie sne eden narod. Toa sto ne deli e samo nasite idelogii-
Makedonizmot i Bugarizmot.
--
E = MB x 4
(Ethnic Group = Common Denominators = Macedonians/Bulgarians =
Language, Culture, History, Race)
Sent via Deja.com
http://www.deja.com/
June R Harton
<ivay...@my-deja.com> wrote in message news:95njje$v3s$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> In article <95nfo0$rqi$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> la...@my-deja.com wrote:
> > i have not seen the horsemen yet but the mongoloid thinking is
> > prevalent. but why not? you seem to be proud of your Bulgarian name
> > even though there does not seem to be a lot Bulgarian in you.
> I guess you follow our example, calling yourself Macedonian even though
> there isn't much Macedonian in you.
> Ivaylo.
Yes Ivaylo, but the Fyromians are zero Macedonian, and all his post
shows is his shameful racism and intense self loathing.
He is another one who needs help.
from: Spirit of Truth
June R Harton
http://www.britannica.com/bcom/eb/article/single_image/0,5716,4461+asmbly_id,00.html
Map from "Report of the International Commission To Inquire
into the Causes and Conduct of the Balkan Wars" 1914.
la...@my-deja.com
kolku Bugari si videl? sigurno ne si stapnal vo Bugarija. jazikot
Bugarski spored tebe ne se razlikuva od Makedonskiot a ti ni dvata
jazika ne gi poznavash dovolno. shto tolku imame zaednichko vo
istorijata osem toa deka sme bile nekogash upravuvani od Bugarska
drzhava, sme bile zaedno pod Turcite kako i drugi narodi itn? mislish
deka Prilepchanite pred 200 godini znaea deka ima Varna i kade e. koja
e taa kultura shto ni e zaednichka spored tebe?
G Schneider
Ilya Talev wrote:
Facsimile - Cool. Thanks. Is it at LC?
G Schneider
la...@my-deja.com wrote:
No, probably not. That Zografska Bugarska Istorija that Emil put online
yesterday is intelligible.
June R Harton
Continuing to lie will _never_ make it so.
Krasimir Yalamov
> You can all take the lies of 'Macedonians' out of there guys.
>
> Continuing to lie will _never_ make it so.
So, stop it.
> from: Spirit Of The Real B/S
June R Harton
Here meathead (Kr ass) read it again:
It is time for you fyrom'ers to stop lying to yourselves:
Kuzman Anastasov Shapkarev
(1834-1909) Faith and Nationality
Q: What is most sacred for man ?
A: His faith and nationality.
Q: What is your faith?
A: I am a christian.
Q: What is your nationality?
A: I am Bulgarian.
Q: Why?
A: Because my parents are Bulgarians and I speak Bulgarian.
Q: Cannot man change his faith and nationality?
A: There are such people who change their religion and nationality but they
commit the gravest sin and they are considered traitors by the world. They
are not dear to any one, everybody hates and despises them and that is why I
shall never think of such things and I shall always try to help such misled
people to find the true path.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
K Shapkarev's "Bulgarsky Boukvar" 1868, p45
[Bulgarian Primer - in the language of the Macedonian Bulgarians]
Kuzman Shapkarev was the greatest collector and publisher of ethnographic
material in Vardar Macedonia. Born in the city of Ohrid, he spent some 30
years (1855-84) as a teacher in this part of Macedonia. He published
hundreds of articles and monographs on the dialects and folklore in the
Periodic Journal of the Bulgarian Academy of Sciences (Bqlgarskoto Knijovno
Drujestvo). His major work is "Sbornik ot bqlgarski narodni umotvoreniya" in
three volumes, Sofia, 1891-94.
From the
"Autobiography" (1864)
of Kouzman Shapkarev
The state of education in Macedonia
"Genealogy and life of Kouzman, the son of Tasev (Atanasov), the son of
Paskal, the son of Mihail Shapkarev from Ochrida. Mihail Shapkarev, a
Bulgarian, born in the village of Leskovets, which is at one hour's walk
east of Ochrida, in the Western part of Petrino Mountain, was the father of
two sons called Hadji Peter and Paskal. According to the usual custom of
that time, Mihail went to work in Constantinople and since he stayed a very
long time there, without visiting his family, his wife took her little
children and went on horseback to her husband in Constantinople. After
staying for a while there she returned home again. That is why she was
called later "Stamboulka".
When the end of my stay in Bitolya drew near, that is, when I finished my
studies there, I had to look for a job as a teacher. My teacher Atanasy took
the trouble to find me a job. He tried to place me in Turnovo (a small
village in the district of Bitolya) but failed. Then he tried through Georgy
Tsolev, the best friend and secret adviser of Atanasy, ie mine as well, then
through Atanasy and Yanakiev, to get an appointment for me as teacher in the
village of Neveska or some other village. Meanwhile some people from
Koukoush, of whom Stameno Petsov was one, put up at our inn once and invited
me for a teacher in Koukoush (where the spark of love for our mother
Bulgarian tongue had not been kindled yet). I am very much obliged
especially to two of my teachers - one of them Mile Skopachev, who being a
good psalm singer, taught me to sing and understand a little of
hymn-singing; while the other - Kostadin Hr. Ouzounov, was the first to
inspire me with the desire to study my native language. He gave me a Serbian
primar (because there were no Bulgarian primars in our part of the country,
and no one even thought of studying Bulgarian, while now, thank God, the
situation is quite changed), taught me to understand the letters and kindled
the first sparks of love for our language in me. God bless his soul in
heaven! That year I studied geography, mathematics, ecclesiastical history,
together with Ancon Mitanov and Vasil Dyamandiev.
During the three years of my being a teacher in Strouga two important things
in my life took place there. The first was that I introduced in school for
the first time the teaching of our native language the Bulgarian language,
which about a century (70 years) ago was in danger of disappearing
completely. The reason for this introduction was closely connected with the
late Dimiter Miladinov, of whom we shall speak more later on in this book.
This worthy man, being a teacher in Greek for many years, was naturally for
a while a supporter of the Greeks and persecutor of the Bulgarians. But
during the last years of his life (just like St. Paul) he was aware of his
delusion, in which not only all Bulgarians in Macedonia but even he himself
had fallen, and renouncing his former errors he zealously worked even to the
day of his death for the spiritual revival of the people, and the
introduction of the Bulgarian language in the Bulgarian churches and
schools, in which the Greek language was used at that time. The endeavours
of this worthy man inspired me also to introduce the Bulgarian language
which I learnt to read a little as early as 1856 in Ochrida from Kostadin
Hr. Ouzounov - in my school. But I lacked the necessary books. I received
help, however, from the same person. Because after he returned to his place
in Prilep he sent me 15 Serbian primars with church letters. Then after he
went to Koukoush he sent me a sufficient number of Bulgarian primars and
histories, published by the Archimandrite Parteny Zografsky, the present
bishop of Polyanin (Koukoush). This is the first event. And the second one
is that at the end of my second year there (Oct. 30th, 1858) I was engaged
to Elisaveta D. Miladinova, and married her five years later [Sept. 25th,
1863].
The Name Macedonians
In a letter to Prof. Marin Drinov of May 25, 1888 Kuzman Shapkarev writes:
"But even stranger is the name Macedonians, which was imposed on us only 10
to 15 years ago by outsiders, and not as something by our own
intellectuals... Yet the people in Macedonia know nothing of that ancient
name, reintroduced today with a cunning aim on the one hand and a stupid one
on the other. They know the older word: "Bugari", although mispronounced:
they have even adopted it as peculiarly theirs, inapplicable to other
Bulgarians. You can find more about this in the introduction to the booklets
I am sending you. They call their own Macedono-Bulgarian dialect the
"Bugarski language", while the rest of the Bulgarian dialects they refer to
as the "Shopski language". (Makedonski pregled, IX, 2, 1934, p. 55; the
original letter is kept in the Marin Drinov Museum in Sofia, and it is
available for examination and study)
Here is the text in the original:
"No pochudno e imeto Makedonci, koeto naskoro, edvay predi 10-15 godini, ni
natrapiha i to otvqn, a ne kakto nyakoi mislyat ot samata nasha
inteligenciya... Narodqt obache v Makedoniya ne znae nishto za tova
arhaichesko, a dnes, s lukava cel ot edna strana, s glupeshka ot druga,
podnoveno prozvishte; toy si znae postaroto: Bugari, makar i nepravilno
proiznasyano, daje osvoyava si go kato sobstveno i preimushtestveno svoe,
nejeli za drugite Bqlgari. Za tova shte vidite i v predgovora na izpratenite
mi knijici. Toy naricha Bugarski ezik svoeto Makaedono-bqlgarsko narechie,
kogato drugite bqlgarski narechiya naricha Shopski."
from: Spirit of Truth
Krasimir Yalamov
[del]
Make note that it's none of your business
how Macedonians in Bulgaria, the Republic of Macedonia, etc.
call themselves.
> from: Spirit of B/S
June R Harton
Note the following Kr ass from your post
> Make note that it's none of your business
> how Macedonians
no such animal....get it! Doesn't exist.
> in Bulgaria, the Republic of Macedonia,
no such place...FYROM the no name country
>etc. call themselves.
Their are several Napoleon's in your nuthouse with you Kr ass
but I am sorry to tell you they are as mad as you.
from: Spirit of Truth
Stephan Nikolov
news:95n392$ght$2...@usenet.otenet.gr...
> Abre Stef !!
> Which one named this "renaissance" Macedonian ???
> Is this term correct ??
> John Alep
> Macedonia, Greece
>
>
>
Pokrovski. In Byzantinist literature it has been not the "Macedonian" that
has been challenged, but the "Renaissance" bit.
The whole discussion on the issue is available in
Warren Treadgold (ed) , Renaissances before the Renaissance : cultural
revivals of late antiquity and the Middle Ages (Stanford, Calif : Stanford
University Press, 1984)
SN
June R Harton
from: Spirit Of The Real Makedon
(using June's e-mail to communicate to you)!
.......The heart of Macedonia was always Greek
John Alep
"Stef" <ste...@balkania.com> wrote:
> Not much, really, if don't count that Basil I might have indeed have some
> Slavic connection, and remmember that he spent his childhood in Bulgaria.
> This of course, has little to do with the cultural revival.
You don't agree with Ilya ( Talev) e? Blood has nothing to do with culture
!!
> Who is N. Bees?
German historian. In his article "Eine unbeachtete Quelle uber die
Abstammung des Kaisers Basilios I des Mazedoniers" published in
Byzantinischneugriechische Jahrburcher 4, 1923, 76. This article says that
Basilios has Greek parents from Harioupolis in Northwest Thrace.
I found the information in page 444 of Papyros-Larousse-Britanica
Encyclopedia vol Hellas 1.
John Alep
Macedonia, Greece
Myros Pimenakis
G Schneider wrote:
> When is this guy going to get his own email?
When you will stop pretending that you don't read his posts. :)))
MSP
Krasimir Yalamov
Good point.
As far as I am concerned, since it became clear that JH
goals are to provoke flames, dialog obstruction, etc.
with open extremist agenda based on half-truths,
I am ignoring most of his comments, quotes, links, etc.,
regardless the chance that they may contain anything
of substance.
G Schneider
Krasimir Yalamov wrote:
> Myros Pimenakis wrote:
>
> > G Schneider wrote:
> > >
> > > Krasimir Yalamov wrote:
> > >
> > > > June R Farton wrote:
> > > >
> > > > [del]
> > > >
> > > > Make note that it's none of your business
> > > > how Macedonians in Bulgaria, the Republic of Macedonia, etc.
> > > > call themselves.
> > > >
> > > > > from: Spirit of B/S
> > > > >
> > > > > (using June's e-mail to communicate to you)!
> > >
> > > When is this guy going to get his own email?
> >
> > When you will stop pretending that you don't read his posts. :)))
>
> Good point.
Right. I should probably skip all the replies to his inane posts, but
those are the majority of this newsgroup