RFD: soc.culture.turkish.moderated moderated
Erol Keskin
Yusuf Pisan wrote: > below proposed moderators...?
> Yes. He/she needs approval of the moderators.
>
> > >Moderator: Zafer Bozkus <boz...@narwhal.cc.metu.edu.tr>
> > >Moderator: Hasan Baha CAYIR <h...@turk.ch>
> > >Moderator: Yusuf Pisan <y-p...@nwu.edu>
> > >Moderator: Uzman <uz...@urgentmail.com>
> > >Moderator: Huseyin Vural <hvu...@narwhal.cc.metu.edu.tr>
> >
Sizin verdiginiz bu listeden "Uzman"in Ermeniler ve bilhassa Ermeni
katliami denen olay hakkindaki goruslerini ogrenebilirmiyim?
Hatirladigim kadari ile Uzman "magaralardaki insan iskeletlerinden"
bahsediyordu bir yazisinda.
Erol
Murat Kalinyaprak
> REQUEST FOR DISCUSSION (RFD)
> moderated group soc.culture.turkish.moderated
> Newsgroup line:
> soc.culture.turkish.moderated Turkiye/Turkey and related
> issues. (Moderated)
Considering all Turks in the world, could this description
be revised as "Issues related to Turks/Turkey"?
> * Large amount of crossposting to newsgroups that are
> hostile to soc.culture.turkish has created a hostile
> environment in SCT (approximately 25% of articles are
> crossposted to more than 3 newsgroups)
Since I already read the whole article, I have seen the
newsgroups listed at the bottom, to which this article
is cross-posted to. I assume the "hostile newsgroups"
mentined above include most of those groups. My question
is: "Why this discussion was posted to those so-called
"hostile newsgroups"...?
> * Approximately 20% of articles have less than 1/3
> original text as a result of increased hostility.
I think "hostility" is overplayed in this statement...
> * Many readers have chosen to leave SCT due to increased
> hostility. soc.culture.turkish.moderated will once again
> offer a civilized place of discussion and attract past
> users as well as new users.
Again, I find the "hostility" overplayed here also.
Let's stress the lack of content and/or amount of
content irrelevant to the subject of the newsgroup...
>Articles will be rejected if they fall into any of the categories
>below:
> ...........................................
> * Articles crossposted to more than 5 newsgroups.
>
> * Crossposted articles that do not have a "Followup-To:"
>header indicating which newsgroup further discussion should take
>place.
>
> * Articles crossposted to groups not related to Turkey or
>the current subject (such as crossposts to alt.sex, or misc.test)
Concerning the above 3 items, why not ban cross-posting
alltogether...? What's the use of any cross-posting...?
>All articles that are related to Turkey will be welcome.
This is too broad for my taste...
> No article will be rejected based on content or subject unless
> they fall into one of the categories above.
But this (meaning all above restrictions) is also braod enough
that I may consider being a moderator candidate after all...:)
>RoboModerator will reject the article if
> * the article containes less than 1/3 new material or
>less than 3 lines of original text.
How will it determine what's new, what's original...?
>RoboModerator will forward the article to moderators if
> * the articles contains one of the specified keywords
>such as "Make Money Fast", "Adult Pictures", "stupid asshole".
>The keywords will be decided by the majority of the moderation
>team.
How well will it be able to deal with intentional
misspellings...?
>RoboModerator will post the article if
> * the article is from an established reader of
>soc.culture.turkish.moderated and does not contain any of ...
What if somebody pretends to be somebody else...?
>If the posting was due to the RoboModerator, the RoboModerator
>program and the list of established users will be changed as
>necessary.
I have a feeling that this will become a daily chore...
>Forged articles or articles that get posted due to errors in the
>RoboModerator will be canceled by the moderators.
This too...
>A poster whose article is rejected can appeal the decision to the
>team of moderators.
This may create a daily chore also... What if people
decide to keep the moderators busy reviewing appeals
just for the heck of it...?
>Becoming a moderator:
>^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>Any user can appeal to the panel of moderators and request to be
>added to the moderation team. A new moderator will be added if
>there is 2/3 majority for his/her acceptance.
Is this effective now or after the group created...?
In other words, if anybody who wants to be a moderator
now, does he/she already need the acceptance of the
below proposed moderators...?
>Moderator: Zafer Bozkus <boz...@narwhal.cc.metu.edu.tr>
>Moderator: Hasan Baha CAYIR <h...@turk.ch>
>Moderator: Yusuf Pisan <y-p...@nwu.edu>
>Moderator: Uzman <uz...@urgentmail.com>
>Moderator: Huseyin Vural <hvu...@narwhal.cc.metu.edu.tr>
As a regular of SCT for the past couple of years,
I don't even recognize the first amd the last one
on the list. Are we supposed to think that they
were just quiet readers? (i.e. SCT was good enough
for them to read but not to post?)
Is this list to be accepted or rejected as a whole
and as is...? Or will the readers be able to do
that for each one separately...? And is this already
a "club" or is it still open to anybody who may want
to become a moderator at this time...?
>This RFD is being posted to the following newsgroups:
>news.announce.newgroups
>news.groups
>soc.culture.turkish
>soc.culture.greek
>soc.culture.kurdish
>soc.religion.islam
>soc.culture.iranian
>soc.culture.arabic
>soc.culture.pakistan
>talk.politics.mideast
Why was this RFD posted to Greek, Kurdish, Iranian,
Arabic and Pakistani newsgroups (even mideast)...?
MK
Selman Akbulut
> > Murat Kalinyaprak:
> > that I may consider being a moderator candidate after all...:)
traditional garments in Turkey (see: Dejanews: Mr Kalinyaprak's writings
on "Sakal, bas ortusu ..."), and as one who initially objected forming of
SCTM, and as one who already expressed a concern that SCTM may not be
restricted enough I find Mr Kalinyaprak's candidacy objectionable...In my
opinion the most important virtue a moderator should possess is
TOLERANCE...
Some recent examples:
>Murat Kalinyaprak:
>SCTM'in ne gerekli oldugunu, ne de yararli olacagini
>sanmiyorum ve desteklemeyecegimi de belirtmistim.
>En iyi ihtimalle belki cekimser kalir, engellemeye
>calismam dedim
> Murat Kalinyaprak:
>"Ben kimim? Ben Kurt'um. Zart, zurt..." diyen 'siirler'
> okumak istesem, neden adina "soc.culture.kurdish"ten
> denen bir 'guruptan' degil de, "soc.culture.turkish.moderated"
> denecekbir 'guruptan' okumak isteyeyim...?
> Simdi ben SCTM'i destekliyorum ama SCTM'de bu tur
> bir yazinin 1 kez bile ciktigini gormek istemiyorum
> dersem, sen ve senin gibiler bana ne diyeceksiniz?
> > >Moderator: Zafer Bozkus <boz...@narwhal.cc.metu.edu.tr>
> > >Moderator: Hasan Baha CAYIR <h...@turk.ch>
> > >Moderator: Yusuf Pisan <y-p...@nwu.edu>
> > >Moderator: Uzman <uz...@urgentmail.com>
> > >Moderator: Huseyin Vural <hvu...@narwhal.cc.metu.edu.tr>
> > Murat Kalinyaprak:
> > As a regular of SCT for the past couple of years,
> > I don't even recognize the first amd the last one
> > on the list. Are we supposed to think that they
> > were just quiet readers? (i.e. SCT was good enough
> > for them to read but not to post?)
> Yusuf Pisan:
> I posted information about them in a seperate post. You are right
> they have not been active on SCT in the last couple of years, but they
> have posted to SCT in the past. They are also reputable faculty
> members in a distinguished Turkish university and their charitable and
> volunteer activities make them good candidates for SCTM. In addition,
> these people have connections with Turkish universities and could
> ensure that SCTM is propagated to Turkey and help increase
> contribution from Turkey to SCTM.
Both Mr Vural and Mr Bozku$ have written many articles in newspapers,
listserver "lists", and SCT as well. As a current example: in SCT thread:
"Canada'daki Nukleer Santraller" there is an article by Mr Vural which I
forwarded myself.
Selman Akbulut
-------------
Mehmet Yagci
DIKKAT:
>
> > > >Moderator: Zafer Bozkus <boz...@narwhal.cc.metu.edu.tr>
> > > I don't even recognize the first amd the last one
> > > on the list. Are we supposed to think that they
> > > were just quiet readers? (i.e. SCT was good enough
> > > for them to read but not to post?)
Bu isimlerin her ikisi de Selman Akbulut'un yakin arkadaslaridir.
Bilmeyenler ogrensin de sonradan biri moderator olursa "remote" olarak
kimin moderator olacagini gorursunuz.
Selman Akbulut aday degilmis. Breh, breh.
Ama adaylari var, hem bir degil iki tane.
Mehmet YAGCI
RACER
Mehmet Yagci wrote:
>
> DIKKAT:
> >
> > > > >Moderator: Zafer Bozkus <boz...@narwhal.cc.metu.edu.tr>
> > > > I don't even recognize the first amd the last one
> > > > on the list. Are we supposed to think that they
> > > > were just quiet readers? (i.e. SCT was good enough
> > > > for them to read but not to post?)
>
> Bilmeyenler ogrensin de sonradan biri moderator olursa "remote" olarak
> kimin moderator olacagini gorursunuz.
>
> Selman Akbulut aday degilmis. Breh, breh.
> Ama adaylari var, hem bir degil iki tane.
>
> Mehmet YAGCI
Yahu anlamadiniz mi bu adamlar tam bir partizan kafa ile bu gurubu
kurmaya calisiyorlar. Partizan ve karanlik amacli SCTM'ye HAYIR!!!!
Mehmet Yagci
Mehmet Yagci wrote:
>
> DIKKAT:
> >
> > > > >Moderator: Zafer Bozkus <boz...@narwhal.cc.metu.edu.tr>
> > > > I don't even recognize the first amd the last one
> > > > on the list. Are we supposed to think that they
> > > > were just quiet readers? (i.e. SCT was good enough
> > > > for them to read but not to post?)
>
> Bilmeyenler ogrensin de sonradan biri moderator olursa "remote" olarak
> kimin moderator olacagini gorursunuz.
>
> Selman Akbulut aday degilmis. Breh, breh.
> Ama adaylari var, hem bir degil iki tane.
Bu adaylardan biri secildigi takdirde Selman'i elestiren bir yazi yazin
bakalim, yayinlaniyor mu yayinlanmiyor mu? Ben zamaninda MSU Turk Ogrenci
Dernegi baskani iken (ve Selman'in yalan ithamlarina maruz kalmis iken),
Selman icin yazdigim bazi yazilara Selman yerine bu iki aday cevap
verirlerdi. Ayrica Selman MSU-TSA listserv'inin moderator'u idi ve kac
arkadasi keyfi olarak uyelikten cikartmisti. Diger uyelerden gelen baski
yuzunden de geri almak zorunda kalmisti. O yuzden dernek olarak
listserv'i onun elinden almistik. Daha sonra Selman kendi adamlarina
(yani buraya alakasiz olarak cevap yazan kisiler) alternatif Turk dernegi
kurdurmus ve listserv yaptirmisti. Bu TAMTURK denen kisiyle de cok iyi
anlasirlardi. O zamanlar.
Eger Selman istiyorsa o zaman bana TAMTURK'ten ve kendinden gelen
mesajlari buraya post edebilirim. Selman'in ne kadar "demokrat ve durust"
oldugunu gostermesi icin.
Mehmet YAGCI
Selman Akbulut
> Selman Akbulut aday degilmis. Breh, breh.
> Ama adaylari var, hem bir degil iki tane.
>
Bu yazar hakkinda fikir edinmek isteyenler, onun gecmi$ yazilarini
Dejanews'dan "Mehmet Yagci" ismini tiklatip bakabilirler..
Benim gecmi$te SCT de isim vermeden yazdigim, sayin Yagci'yi kizdiran
yazim, onun MSU daki bir yillik ogrenci dernegi ba$kanligini ilgilendiren
yazimdir:
> Selman Akbulut:
>...
> Buna benzer bir olay gecen yil Universitemizde oldu: Burada gecen yilin
> TSA baskani (hukumet burslusu bir ogrenci) Dinar depremi dolaysiyla
> Kizilay'a para yardimi yapmak isteyen Universite Dekan'ini "Kizilay bu
> paralari suistimal eder" diye durdurdu (ve Dekan'a Kizilay yerine yardimi
> ozel bir Turk-Amerikan dernegi vasitasiyla yapmasini onerdi, fakat Dekan
> bunu kabul etmedi). Boylece dolayli olarak, bir Turk dernegi baskani
> Turkiye'nin resmi bir yardim organizasyonu hakkinda emin olmadigi menfi
> bir iddia ile, uzun yillar burada hatirlanacak Turkiye aleyhtari bir
> propogandaya sebep olmus oldu...
Bu ogrencimiz bundan sonrada maalesef "YALANCI ben boyle bir $ey
demedim!!" diye network'te SCT'de "slander" kampanyasina ba$ladi (ANADOLU
listesi ve SCT logfileleri "public" oldugundan bu bilgiyi vermeyi
"privacy" ihlali olarak gormuyorum). Bunun uzerine ben Dekan yardimcisi
Joe Cousins'dan, sayin Yagci'nin Kizilay hakkinda bu sozleri soyledigine
dair, kendisinden tanik olarak, a$agidaki yazili onayini aldim ("public"
kullanmak izniyle):
----------
>Selman (to Joe Cousins):
>As you may remember TSA president Mr Mehmet Yagci had rearranged
>the direction of Dinar earthquake benefit funds from Turkish Red
>Crescent to Turkish MSU Alumini association, hoping to bypass
>bureaucratic corruption with Red Crescent...
>...Recently, on the Turkish listserver list he claims that this
>event had never taken place?, he never mentioned you possible
>mismanegement and/or corroption with Turkish Red Crescent
>organization, he just merely told you to change the direction
>of the letter you wrote, and all these things were
>fabricated by me?? In fact I can be proven to be a liar
>by simply facing you.....
>I need you to look at my e-mail letter and tell me from your
>point of view if I recall the events correctly??, I should at
>least be able to say "I wrote to Mr Cousins and verified the
>events" to have any credibility...
>>Joe Cousins (to Selman):
>>Dear Selman, I do recall this and you can site our interaction.
>>Regards, Joe.
-----------
Maalesef sayin Yagci bir yil icinde MSU'dan ayrilip ba$ka bir universiteye
transfer ettiginden, bu "academic dishonesty" davrani$ini duzeltmesi icin
kendisini "Judiciary Committe" ye gondermek firsatim olmadi (eger kendisi
bir sebebten geriye transfer ederse, bu davrani$inin hesabini MSU
"Judiciary Committee" sine verecektir).
Dekan bizlere ilk defa kendi Dinar yardimini Turkiye'ye Kizilhac vasitasi
ile gondermeyi onermisti, biz de nazikce Kizilay'in daha isabetli
olacagini soyleyip kendisini ikna etmistik... Maalesef Dekan sayin
Yagci'nin bu hareketinden sonra Kizilay'a yapmayi planladigi yardimdan
vazgecti (Joe Cousin'in sayin Yagci davrani$ina reaksiyonu: "I can't
belive he did that?").
$imdi gecmi$te yaptigim gibi sayin Yagci'ya bir daha sesleniyorum: Sizi
okutup yetistirip buralara gonderen, elinize burslar verip imkanlar
yaratan bu milletin bir "relief" organizasyonu hakkinda bu Universitede
boyle hakir gorecek asagilamalar yapmaya utanmiyor musunuz?? Siz bu
haraketinizle Turkiye'yi burada saygin bir sekilde temsil ettiginize
inaniyor musunuz??...
Sayin Yagci $imdi de utanmadan, bilim adamlari olarak kendilerini
kanitlami$ Turkiye'de bir$eyler yapmaya cali$an idalist iki ogretim uyemiz
hakkinda network'a cikip a$agilma kampanyalari yapmmak size yaki$ir mi?..
----------
*Bilgi: Sayin Zafer Bozku$ DSI de baraj projeleri ustune, sayin Huseyin
Vural'da TUBITAK'da roket projeleri uzerine ba$arili cali$malar yapmi$
halihazirda ODTU'de cali$an iki bilim adamimizdir (Huseyin iki yil once
SAGE'de ba$ariyla denenen Turkiye'nin ilk roket projesinin
mimarlarindandir). Ayrica sayin Huseyin'in kurdugu, Zafer'in de aktif
olarak cali$tigi yoksun yorelerdeki koy okullara ders kitabi ve ogretim
araclari gonderme kampanyasi (EFES) yakla$ik 30,000 kitapla 300 uzerinde
koylere eri$mi$tir..
Sayin Vural ve sayin Bozku$'un ikiside ogrencilik siralarinda ABD'de
Turkiye ile ilgili bir suru cali$malarda bulunmu$lardir... Huseyin
Rutgers'da Turkce radyo yayini cali$malarina katkida bulunmu$; Zafer'de
MSU da TSA ba$kani olarak MSU kutuphanesini Turkce gazete ve dergilere
abone ettirmi$, Kibris konusunda Yunanli ogrencilerin yogun propoganda
kampanyasina kar$ilik Bulent Ecevit'in konu$maci olarak MSU ya
getirtilmesinde buyuk katkisi olmu$tur (iki yil once ayni $ekilde burada
bizler Huseyin'in Turkiye'den yardimiyla, MSU da Turkiye'nin di$
politikasi uzerine konu$ma vermesi icin, Mumtaz Soysal'i getirtmi$tik).
Zafer ve Huseyin'in ikisi de gecmi$te yorel gazetelere defalarca
Turkiye/Kibris ve Ermeni'ler konusunda makaleler yazip, yapilan hatali
suclamalara yanitlar vermi$lerdir ... Bu arkada$larin IKISI DE bu gazete
yazilarindan dolayi olum tehditleri almi$lardir (Huseyin boyle bir tehdit
sonucu, Boston polisinin uyarisiyla MIT'deki evini terk etmek zorunda
kalmi$ti)...(yakinlarda Huseyin Cumhuriyet'de cevre kirliligi konusunda da
makaleler yazmi$ti).
--------
$imdi bakiyorum... MSU da bulundugu bir yilda TSA ba$kani olarak
yukaridaki acikli marifeti yani sira, dogru durust hicbir icraatda
bulunmami$, kendinden onceki ogrenci derneginin kurup eline verdigi
listserver listesini kufurlerle susleyip Computer Center'da kapattirmak
tehlikesine sokmu$, bir yil sonrada ba$ka okula cekip gitmi$ olan sayin
Mehmet Yagci, $imdi de bir sokak kabadayisi gibi cikip sayin Huseyin Vural
ve sayin Zafer Bozku$'a "onlar bilmem kimin adamidir!" diye ahlaksizca bir
karalama kampanyasina giri$mi$...
Manzara epey huzun verici.. (tabii ayrica acikli olan, bu davrani$in
Turkiye'nin burs verip "git adam ol" diye yurt di$ina yolladigi bir
ogrenciden gelmesi).
"Boyle bir yaziya neden cevap verdin?" sorusunun cevabi (bildigim
kadariyla SCT okurlarina Huseyin ve Zafer konusunda bilgi sunmanin yani
sira) Huseyin'nin Inonu'den yaptigi alintinin icinde yatmakdadir:
"Bu ulkede namuslu insanlar, en az namussuz olanlar kadar cesaret sahibi
olmazsa ulkenin gelecegi karanliktir".
Selamlar,
Selman Akbulut
-------------
Selman Akbulut
>>As one who can not even tolarete beard, turban, and the usage of certain
>>traditional garments in Turkey (see: Dejanews: Mr Kalinyaprak's writings
> Chris Stone:
> What impact do traditional garments have on one's ability
> to moderate a newsgroup?
It is an indication of tolerance..
> Chris Stone:
> You yourself* said you "cannot even tolerate" the wearing of traditional
> dress in Turkey; how, then, do those who share your stance possess tolerance?
??..Is this being addressed to Mr Kalinyaprak or to me? It looks like you
are writing to Mr Kalinyaprak.. I have always believed that everyone
should be able dress as they wish.
Selman
------
Mehmet Yagci
> Selman Akbulut wrote: > > Buna benzer bir olay gecen yil Universitemizde oldu: Burada gecen
> > TSA baskani (hukumet burslusu bir ogrenci) Dinar depremi dolaysiyla
> > Kizilay'a para yardimi yapmak isteyen Universite Dekan'ini "Kizilay
bu
> > paralari suistimal eder" diye durdurdu (ve Dekan'a Kizilay yerine
yardimi
> > ozel bir Turk-Amerikan dernegi vasitasiyla yapmasini onerdi, fakat
Dekan
> > bunu kabul etmedi).
Dinar Kaymakaminin yaptigimiz yardim icin gondermis oldugu tesekkur
mektubu hala elimde. Senin onca engellemelerine ragmen gonderdik.
Ozel bir Turk-Amerikan dernegi dedigin de Michigan State Universitesi
Turk Mezunlar Dernegi. Ama senin o dernek yoneticileri ile kisisel
sorunun oldugu icin yardim yapilmadi diyorsun. O dernegin yoneticileri
icinde Izzet Baysal Universitesi rektoru, Mersin Universitesi IIBF
dekani, Marmara Universitesi ogretim uyeleri var. Sen baltalamaya
kalkismasaydin, Dinar'a daha fazla yardim gonderirdik. Ama sen
asistanlarina daha sonra ozel klup kurdurdun. Herseye ragmen MSU Turk
Ogrenci Dernegi gercek sahiplerinin elinde kaldi. Sizler gittiniz, iyi
oldu.
> Maalesef sayin Yagci bir yil icinde MSU'dan ayrilip ba$ka bir
>universiteye
> transfer ettiginden, bu "academic dishonesty" davrani$ini duzeltmesi
icin
> kendisini "Judiciary Committe" ye gondermek firsatim olmadi (eger
kendisi
> bir sebebten geriye transfer ederse, bu davrani$inin hesabini MSU
> "Judiciary Committee" sine verecektir).
Cousins'e gidip yuzleselim dedim, ama bir turlu gelemedin.
> $imdi gecmi$te yaptigim gibi sayin Yagci'ya bir daha sesleniyorum:
Sizi
> okutup yetistirip buralara gonderen, elinize burslar verip imkanlar
> yaratan bu milletin bir "relief" organizasyonu hakkinda bu
Universitede
> boyle hakir gorecek asagilamalar yapmaya utanmiyor musunuz?? Siz bu
> haraketinizle Turkiye'yi burada saygin bir sekilde temsil ettiginize
> inaniyor musunuz??...
asistanin dernek baskani iken "Turk olmaktan utaniyorum" demedi mi?
Bunlar dernek yonetim kurulu secimlerinin "minute"larinda var. Istersen
simdiki baskandan iste. Unutmussan eger.
> Sayin Yagci $imdi de utanmadan, bilim adamlari olarak kendilerini
> kanitlami$ Turkiye'de bir$eyler yapmaya cali$an idalist iki ogretim
uyemiz
> hakkinda network'a cikip a$agilma kampanyalari yapmmak size yaki$ir
mi?..
Ben bu bilim adamlari icin hic bir sey demiyorum. Sadece seni ortaya
cikartmak istiyorum. Gecen yil, benim onlarla hic bir problemim yok
iken,
bana ozel mesajlar atip duruyorlardi. Senin ne kadar "iyi" bir insan
oldugunu kanitlamak icin. Istersen o yazilari da buraya post edebilirim.
Bu arkadaslari tebrik ederim. Ben onlarin akademik basarilari hakkinda
hic soz etmedim. Bunlari neden yaziyorsun ki? Istersen bu adaylara
soyleyelim, SOC.CULTURE.TURKISH'e birer "resume"lerini gecsinler. Hep
birlikte okuyalim.
> "Bu ulkede namuslu insanlar, en az namussuz olanlar kadar cesaret
sahibi
> olmazsa ulkenin gelecegi karanliktir".
Iste bu yuzden, sirf bu yuzden, senin ne oldugunu buradaki okuyularin
anlamasi gerekiyor. SCTM tartismasina simdiye kadar hic katilmamisken,
katilmak istememin nedeni bu. Diger okuyanlara bilgi vermek. Detaylar,
sen istersen devam edebilir.
Bu arada, TAMTURK'u listeden neden attin? Onu listeye geri isteyen
olmadi mi?
Gorusuruz,
Mehmet YAGCI
Mehmet Yagci
Selman Akbulut wrote:
> > Buna benzer bir olay gecen yil Universitemizde oldu: Burada gecen yilin
> > TSA baskani (hukumet burslusu bir ogrenci) Dinar depremi dolaysiyla
> > Kizilay'a para yardimi yapmak isteyen Universite Dekan'ini "Kizilay bu
> > paralari suistimal eder" diye durdurdu (ve Dekan'a Kizilay yerine yardimi
> > ozel bir Turk-Amerikan dernegi vasitasiyla yapmasini onerdi, fakat Dekan
> > bunu kabul etmedi).
Selman, ne kadar yalanci oldugun yine ortada.
Dinar Kaymakaminin yaptigimiz yardim icin gondermis oldugu tesekkur
mektubu hala elimde. Senin onca engellemelerine ragmen gonderdik.
Ozel bir Turk-Amerikan dernegi dedigin de Michigan State Universitesi
Turk Mezunlar Dernegi. Ama senin o dernek yoneticileri ile kisisel
sorunun oldugu icin yardim yapilmadi diyorsun. O dernegin yoneticileri
icinde Izzet Baysal Universitesi rektoru, Mersin Universitesi IIBF
dekani, Marmara Universitesi ogretim uyeleri var. Sen baltalamaya
kalkismasaydin, Dinar'a daha fazla yardim gonderirdik. Ama sen
asistanlarina daha sonra ozel klup kurdurdun. Herseye ragmen MSU Turk
Ogrenci Dernegi gercek sahiplerinin elinde kaldi. Sizler gittiniz, iyi
oldu.
> Maalesef sayin Yagci bir yil icinde MSU'dan ayrilip ba$ka bir universiteye
> transfer ettiginden, bu "academic dishonesty" davrani$ini duzeltmesi icin
> kendisini "Judiciary Committe" ye gondermek firsatim olmadi (eger kendisi
> bir sebebten geriye transfer ederse, bu davrani$inin hesabini MSU
> "Judiciary Committee" sine verecektir).
Benim yaptigim "academic dishonesty" filan degil. Sana kac defa Joe
Cousins'e gidip yuzleselim dedim, ama bir turlu gelemedin.
> $imdi gecmi$te yaptigim gibi sayin Yagci'ya bir daha sesleniyorum: Sizi
> okutup yetistirip buralara gonderen, elinize burslar verip imkanlar
> yaratan bu milletin bir "relief" organizasyonu hakkinda bu Universitede
> boyle hakir gorecek asagilamalar yapmaya utanmiyor musunuz?? Siz bu
> haraketinizle Turkiye'yi burada saygin bir sekilde temsil ettiginize
> inaniyor musunuz??...
Selman, senin sozunden cikmayan, baskanlik icin "promote" ettigin
asistanin dernek baskani iken "Turk olmaktan utaniyorum" demedi mi?
Bunlar dernek yonetim kurulu secimlerinin "minute"larinda var. Istersen
simdiki baskandan iste. Unutmussan eger.
>
> Sayin Yagci $imdi de utanmadan, bilim adamlari olarak kendilerini
> kanitlami$ Turkiye'de bir$eyler yapmaya cali$an idalist iki ogretim uyemiz
> hakkinda network'a cikip a$agilma kampanyalari yapmmak size yaki$ir mi?..
> Ben bu bilim adamlari icin hic bir sey demiyorum. Sadece seni ortaya
cikartmak istiyorum. Gecen yil, benim onlarla hic bir problemim yok iken,
bana ozel mesajlar atip duruyorlardi. Senin ne kadar "iyi" bir insan
oldugunu kanitlamak icin. Istersen o yazilari da buraya post edebilirim.
> ----------
Bu arkadaslari tebrik ederim. Ben onlarin akademik basarilari hakkinda
hic soz etmedim. Bunlari neden yaziyorsun ki? Istersen bu adaylara
soyleyelim, SOC.CULTURE.TURKISH'e birer "resume"lerini gecsinler. Hep
birlikte okuyalim.
> "Bu ulkede namuslu insanlar, en az namussuz olanlar kadar cesaret sahibi
> olmazsa ulkenin gelecegi karanliktir".
Iste bu yuzden, sirf bu yuzden, senin ne oldugunu buradaki okuyularin
Murat Kalinyaprak
In <wkd8ldb...@nwu.edu> Yusuf Pisan wrote:
> mu...@cyberport.net (Murat Kalinyaprak) writes:
>>> * Approximately 20% of articles have less than 1/3
>>> original text as a result of increased hostility.
>> I think "hostility" is overplayed in this statement...
> There are certainly posts to 3-5 newsgroups that are on topic
> and valid for all the groups, but in these cases the discussion
> often wanders and becomes unrelated to soc.culture.turkish.
> In a lot of these cases, the thread is a result of one line
> statements that quote the entir post.
I am just stressing that there are a lot of one-liners
that don't contain any hostility... I get the impression
that "hostility" is being played as the/a major reason
why SCTM is needed. I don't share this view. What's more
important for me is a more "focused" newsgroup, even if
it contains what may be called "hostile" views (which is
a relative concept) within that "focus"...
Also, I don't see one liners as always bad either. Most
likely all news-servers skip/miss some articles. Sometimes
we never see the original article, but only some replies
to it. Periodically I have always encouraged writers to
quote enough of the article they are replying to, because
otherwise we don't even know what they are talking about
(unless we had read the original).
Let's not worry too much about size/volume of articles,
while we should be worried about keeping the newsgroup
"focused"...
>>> All articles that are related to Turkey will be welcome.
>> This is too broad for my taste...
> It is very hard to make this more specific without giving
> moderators too much power over content.
If I can take it that by "content" you mean "subject",
what's wrong with that...? I realize that putting it
into words may be a tough task, let's give it a try.
For example, MS-Windows is being sold and used by many
a people in Turkey and around the world. Thus, it
concerns them all and can be said to be ralated to Turkey.
But, I wouldn't want to see "MS-Windows vs. Mac-OS", or
"MS-Windows is trash", or "MS mistreats its competitors"
type debates in SCTM. There are other newsgroups focusing
on such topics. I wouldn't mind, however, discussions on
MS-Windows that may be more tightly related to Turks,
Turkey and Turkish (i.e. on more specific subjects such
as Turkish fonts).
If you wonder what I am trying to get at, replace the
"MS-Windows vs. Mac-OS" above with "Greeks/Armenians
vs. Turks"; "MS-Windows is trash" with "Turks are bad";
"MS mistreats its competitors" with "Turkey kill Kurds";
etc...
> I am open to suggestions on how this can be re-written,
> but please keep in minde that Turkey is a large country
> and people have very different concenrs.
Yes, I agree as long as you mean "people" and not "peoples".
Discussions should have a primary concern for Turks, Turkey
and Turkish. Otherwise, no need to include the word "Turkish"
in the proposed group's name, nor do we need to create a new
group that says soc.culture.various.peoples...
Let's keep in mind that there exists a non-moderated
soc.culture.turkish, where any "various peoples" can
post articles about any "various subjects"...
> In addition, Turks living outside of Turkey also feel ties
> to Turkey and their concerns should also be discussed in
> this newsgroup.
Definitely. And actually, it can be clearly seen that Turks
outside of Turkey show more interest in SCT. It's a sort of
"virtual" Turkish community for them.
>> But this (meaning all above restrictions) is also braod enough
>> that I may consider being a moderator candidate after all...:)
> You are more than welcome. There are already 5 moderators and a
> backup modertor for SCTM at this point, but depending on the amount of
> traffic on SCTM we might need more moderators when it is formed.
Why is the number of moderators related to amount of traffic.
I mean, is there a notion like "too many moderators"...?
Even if there is not enough traffic to keep them busy/active,
I wouldn't mind seing an SCTM with 20, 40, or whatever number
of moderators... This is the best way to ensure that the
group doesn't fall hostage to a handful.
Since there are already provisions to expel "rogue" moderators,
moderators who don't abide by the rules, etc. I request that,
at this stage and at any time later, anybody who wants to be
a moderator should be admitted without any questions. (This
may require an easier way to expel, than 2/3 majority rule.)
>>> RoboModerator will forward the article to moderators if
>>> * the articles contains one of the specified keywords
>>> such as "Make Money Fast", "Adult Pictures", "stupid asshole".
>>> The keywords will be decided by the majority of the moderation
>>> team.
>> How well will it be able to deal with intentional
>> misspellings...?
> It cannot deal with misspelling or many suffixes that Turkish
> language has.
I am just worried that SCTM's moderation mechanism itself
may become target for such intentional hostility/harassment...
>> What if somebody pretends to be somebody else...?
> It is very hard to determine such forgeries. STUMP provides
> PGP support to avoid such abuse. We might have to require
> all users to use PGP for their submissions.
Could you please explain what PGP is and how it works.
>>> If the posting was due to the RoboModerator, the RoboModerator
>>> program and the list of established users will be changed as
>>> necessary.
>> I have a feeling that this will become a daily chore...
> This will be automated.
I mean that constantly fine-tuning the robomoderator
may become a daily ordeal...
What worries me is that the whole thing may turn into
spitting against the wind... If some number of unwanted
articles can get through every day because of the above
mentioned difficulties, will it still be worth the whole
trouble of going through all this...?
>>> Forged articles or articles that get posted due to errors
>>> in the RoboModerator will be canceled by the moderators.
>> This too...
> Also automated. PGPMoose program that runs on multiple
> newsservers will take care of this automatically.
But it's true that cancel messages will create additional
traffic, is it not? Also, isn't true that not all servers
accept cancel messages? I have seen some cancel messages
even archived by DejaNews, etc., right in the newsgroup
they were sent to...
>>> A poster whose article is rejected can appeal the decision
>>> to the team of moderators.
>> This may create a daily chore also... What if people
>> decide to keep the moderators busy reviewing appeals
>> just for the heck of it...?
> This process will be automated as much as possible as well.
> Being a moderator does mean taking the responsibility and
> spending the time to review complaints.
Yes, and they must be really brave to take on such a task.
I mean, if some people want to heckle SCTM/its moderators,
they can really turn the whole thing into a nightmare,
can't they...?
>>> Becoming a moderator:
>>> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>> Any user can appeal to the panel of moderators and request to be
>>> added to the moderation team. A new moderator will be added if
>>> there is 2/3 majority for his/her acceptance.
>> Is this effective now or after the group created...?
>> In other words, if anybody who wants to be a moderator
>> now, does he/she already need the acceptance of the
>> below proposed moderators...?
> Yes. He/she needs approval of the moderators.
I request a change to accept any candidate without an approval
process. At the same time, the mechanism of removing moderators
who violate the charter should be modified to not require 2/3
majority. This way, neither a certain handful nor a certain
crowd can take over the moderation...
>>> Moderator: Zafer Bozkus <boz...@narwhal.cc.metu.edu.tr>
>>> Moderator: Hasan Baha CAYIR <h...@turk.ch>
>>> Moderator: Yusuf Pisan <y-p...@nwu.edu>
>>> Moderator: Uzman <uz...@urgentmail.com>
>>> Moderator: Huseyin Vural <hvu...@narwhal.cc.metu.edu.tr>
>> Is this list to be accepted or rejected as a whole
>> and as is...?
> The whole RFD has to be accepted or rejected as a whole. This
> includes the list of moderators and all the rules and regulations
> of SCTM. If there is a strong argument against a moderator,
> he/she might voluntarily leave or be asked to leave by other
> moderators, but I do not think this will happen.
In that case, you may have just wasted your time as well as
others'...
If the moderators and rules/regulations are not subject to
change, then it's just a matter of "yes" or "no". What's
more left to discuss...?
MK
Murat Kalinyaprak
In <61mdjc$qqg$1...@lynx.unm.edu> Chris Stone wrote:
> In <akbulut-1010...@akbulut.mth.msu.edu>,
> Selman Akbulut wrote:
>> As one who can not even tolarete beard, turban, and .....
> You yourself said you "cannot even tolerate" the wearing
> of traditional dress in Turkey; how, then, do those who
> share your stance possess tolerance?
Chris, you may have misread what he was trying to say.
His words were in reference to me. No big deal, but I
just wanted to suggest to you to not form opinions or
get into discussions based on this person's
"interpretations" of my or other people's words...
MK
Murat Kalinyaprak
akb...@math.msu.edu (Selman Akbulut) wrote:
>>> Murat Kalinyaprak:
>>> But this (meaning all above restrictions) is also braod enough
>>> that I may consider being a moderator candidate after all...:)
> As one who can not even tolarete beard, turban, and the usage
> of certain traditional garments in Turkey (see: Dejanews: Mr
> Kalinyaprak's writings on "Sakal, bas ortusu ..."),
Selman,
In case you don't realize, I would like to first remind
you that this article is cross-posted to "news.groups".
It has long been my impression that you have been mostly
incapable of understanding and responding to my arguments
in our discussions in SCT (soc.culture.turkish). I would
appreciate if you didn't declare you misinterpretations,
without substanciating them beyond sending people (who may
not even understand Turkish) to DejeNews archives, to read
about some past discussions (in Turkish language). For the
remarks you made above, I invite you to find the articles
you are referring to, quote and translate whatever parts
you feel may be useful to backup your above words...
> and as one who initially objected forming of SCTM,
As can be seen from what you quoted below, I had said that
I did not think SCTM was necessary nor would be useful,
and that I would not support it. Then I had added that, I
may at best withold from voting and not try to defeat it
either...
But regardless of this, so what if I had initially objected
to it...? Am I not allowed to change my mind...?
Furthermore, I had not even expressed a definite intention
to become a moderator, but only said "I may consider being
a moderator candidate" (please see my above words which you
yourself have quoted). Such unwarrented strong reaction
from one of the proposers/avid supporters of SCTM makes me
greatly suspicious of what's to come...!
> and as one who already expressed a concern that SCTM may not be
> restricted enough
I believe I often used the words "more focused", rather
than "more restricted", but I may have used those words
also. My question to you is: while there already exists
an unmoderated ("unrestricted") soc.culture.turkish,
what is wrong with one's expressing his opinion that the
alternative moderated group should be more "restricted"
than what you or somebody else proposes...?
"Moderation" is a relative concept, > "0-Moderation". If
you know of an unquestionably prescribable/administrable
dose of moderation, you would be doing a great service
to the whole "Usenet" by disclosing it...
> I find Mr Kalinyaprak's candidacy objectionable...In my opinion
> the most important virtue a moderator should possess is TOLERANCE...
And how did you determine that I am not tolerant...? You
grown-up wanna-be kids can not even tolerate "swear-words"
to the point of using it as "the" most important reason
for wanting a moderated newsgroup. I have been tolerating
writers swearing at me and tried to reply to them using
as best of a language as I could bring myself to do, for
years. I am sure there were times I used a harsh style,
used strong words and even insulted people outright. But
I was not among you, who proposed a moderated newsgroup
just because the amount of swear-words in SCT had became
"intolerable"!
Especially as proposers and avid supporters of SCTM, people
like you should make an extra effort to not come across as
not knowing what you want or what you are talking about. I
suggest that you think a little more before you write...
>Some recent examples:
>
>>Murat Kalinyaprak:
>>SCTM'in ne gerekli oldugunu, ne de yararli olacagini
>>sanmiyorum ve desteklemeyecegimi de belirtmistim.
>>En iyi ihtimalle belki cekimser kalir, engellemeye
>>calismam dedim
For non-Turkish speakers, this has been translated as part
of my above comments...
>> Murat Kalinyaprak:
>>"Ben kimim? Ben Kurt'um. Zart, zurt..." diyen 'siirler'
>> okumak istesem, neden adina "soc.culture.kurdish"ten
>> denen bir 'guruptan' degil de, "soc.culture.turkish.moderated"
>> denecekbir 'guruptan' okumak isteyeyim...?
>> Simdi ben SCTM'i destekliyorum ama SCTM'de bu tur
>> bir yazinin 1 kez bile ciktigini gormek istemiyorum
>> dersem, sen ve senin gibiler bana ne diyeceksiniz?
This relates to a poem recently posted in SCT, as a
response to perhaps several dozen articles of various
subject headers. It basically consisted of verses that
said "I am this, I am that, I did this, I did that..."
with the periodically repeating verse "Who am I? I am
a Kurd." At the end, there were a few added lines of
(presumably) slogans in (presumably) "Kurdish"...
The proponent of SCTM has used this incident as an example
to say that, had it been in SCTM, this poem would have
appeared not 30 times but only once. And I expressed my
view that I would have preferred to see it appear in an
SCTM not even once. As justification, I argued that if
I were looking to find and read such a poem, I would go
to the existing newsgroup "soc.culture.kurdish", and not
to a new moderated newsgroup to be crated (using the
name "soc.culture.turkish.moderated")...
I feel that when I want to buy cheese, I don't go to a
butcher shop. If anybody would like to explain to me why
would I need to go to a soc.culture.turkish.moderated in
order to read a poem about being a "Kurd" (also containing
text in a language inappropriate for that newsgroup),
please feel welcome to do so...
MK
Selman Akbulut
>> Selman Akbulut wrote:
>> Buna benzer bir olay gecen yil Universitemizde oldu: Burada gecen
>> yilin TSA baskani (hukumet burslusu bir ogrenci) Dinar depremi
>> dolaysiyla Kizilay'a para yardimi yapmak isteyen Universite Dekan'ini
>> "Kizilay bu paralari suistimal eder" diye durdurdu (ve Dekan'a
>> Kizilay yerine yardimi ozel bir Turk-Amerikan dernegi vasitasiyla
>> yapmasini onerdi, fakat Dekan bunu kabul etmedi).
> Mehmet Yagci:
> Selman, ne kadar yalanci oldugun yine ortada. Dinar Kaymakaminin
> yaptigimiz yardim icin gondermis oldugu tesekkur mektubu hala
> elimde. Senin onca engellemelerine ragmen gonderdik.
Kimse sizin OZEL olarak Turkiye'ye yaptiginiz yardimdan bahsetmiyor!,
burada bahsedilen: Bir Michigan State Universitesi Dekan'ninin, bir Turk
ogrenci dernegi ba$kaninin davrani$indan dolayi, Dinar'a Kizilay
vasitasiyla yapmak istedigi yardimi yapmaktan vazgecmesidir (dekan
yardimcisi Joe Cousin'in bu dernek ba$kani hakkinda bana soyledikleri "I
can't believe he did that!"...)
> Mehmet Yagci:
> Selman, senin sozunden cikmayan, baskanlik icin "promote" ettigin
> asistanin dernek baskani iken "Turk olmaktan utaniyorum" demedi mi?
Bu ahlaksizca yalan soylemeyi size yaki$tiramiyorum, olmu$ olan olay
sizden onceki TSA ba$kaninin (KESIN olarak benim asistanim degildir/
gecmi$te de hicbir zamanda olmadi) sizin Universitedeki davra$lariniza
bakarak "Burada Turk ogrencilerinden biri olmaktan utaniyorum" demesidir.
Karalamaya cali$tiginiz bu gecmi$ TSA ba$kani zamaninda MSU da yapilan
projeler: (1) Mumtaz Soysal'in buraya getirilip "Turkiye di$ politikasi"
agirlikli konu$malar verdirilmesi (biliyorsunuz o zaman sayin Soysal daha
yeni di$ i$leri bakanligi yapmi$ti - ayrica TSA ba$kani Soysal'in UM ve
Chicago ziyaretlerine de yardimci oldu), (2) O zamanlar kan aglayan
Bosna'ya, MSU'da yardim kampanyasi-konseri duzenleyip, onun sonucu $1,000
lik bir yardimi oradaki yetim cocuklara yollamasi (hepimiz Bosna di$
i$leri bakani Muhammed $akirbey'in dokunakli te$ekkur mektubunu
hatirliyoruz) (3) MSU da Turkler arasi ileti$imi artirmak icin, bir suru
kostekleme cabalarina ragmen, ilk defa "listserver listesi" kurmak ($imdi
bu liste sayisi ikiye cikti). Maalesef bu ba$kan ilk defa MSU tarihinde 6
ay icinde (genelde ba$kanlar en az 1 yillik secilir) tepkisel
davrani$larla ala$agi edildi...
> Mehmet Yagci:
> Bu arada, TAMTURK'u listeden neden attin? Onu listeye geri
> isteyen olmadi mi?
Kimin listeye girip ciktigi $u anda seni ilgilendirmez, bu karari ANADOLU
dernek tuzugune gore kendisi verir (bu konuda gecen yilki ANADOLU dernegi
ba$kani Figen Lacin'in yakinlarda Tamturk'un yazisina cevap olarak SCT nin
"Kufursuz bir SCT icin" thread'inde yazdigi aciklamaya bakiniz)..
Evet liste tuzugune gore listeden cikarilmi$ bir iki ki$inin gecmi$te
izledigimiz reaksiyonlari: Ozel listeler duzenleyip ve SCT ye cikip "bak
ben seni elaleme nasil rezil ederim!" turunden liste sorumlusuna kar$i
kufur ve "slander" kampanyasi yapmalari...
> Mehmet Yagci:
> Zaten, sen bir arkadasimizi baska bir nedenden dolayi
>"Judiciary Committee"e vermistin. Ama sonucta ne oldugunu gorduk.
Ben kimseyi $imdiye kadar universitenin "Judiciary Committee" sine
vermedim (eger siz MSU ya bir sebepten geri transfer ederseniz bu
degi$ebilir), fakat gecmi$te listede bir kiz ogrencinin ozel hayatini
iceren hakaret yazilarindan dolayi "MSU Judiciary Committee" bir uyeye
"IHTAR" cezasi verdi, ayni $ekilde listeye "Hirsizlar, bu listeyi bilmem
nereden caldiniz!" suclamasi getiren bir ki$i diger bazi uyeleri
tarafindan "Judiciary Committee" ye havale edildi (bunun sonucunu henuz
bilmiyorum)....
Burada ben okurlardan SCTM tarti$malarini kendi ozel problemlerinden
kaynaklanan "ogrenci dernegi" hesapla$masina donu$turen sayin Yagci adina
ozur dilerim. Ben ileride mumkun oldugu kadar bu tur diologlardan
kacinmaya cali$acagim...
(ayrica burada yazdiklarimin tum sorumlulugunu aliyorum, her yerde
bunlarin hesabini vermeye hazirim).
Selman Akbulut
--------------
Selman Akbulut
> Chris Stone:
> My point is this. Obviously the issue of religious dress (veils, beards,
> etc.) is a very contentious one in Turkey, and it is very politicized. I
> would not want to see political litmus tests and ultimatiums applied to
> moderators.
You don't think intolerance and prejudice should have something to do with
being a "moderator"?...
Selman
------
erol
Erol Keskin wrote:
> Yusuf Pisan wrote: > below proposed moderators...?
>
> > Yes. He/she needs approval of the moderators.
> >
> > > >Moderator: Zafer Bozkus <boz...@narwhal.cc.metu.edu.tr>
> > > >Moderator: Hasan Baha CAYIR <h...@turk.ch>
> > > >Moderator: Yusuf Pisan <y-p...@nwu.edu>
> > > >Moderator: Uzman <uz...@urgentmail.com>
> > > >Moderator: Huseyin Vural <hvu...@narwhal.cc.metu.edu.tr>
> > >
>
> Sizin verdiginiz bu listeden "Uzman"in Ermeniler ve bilhassa Ermeni
> katliami denen olay hakkindaki goruslerini ogrenebilirmiyim?
>
> Hatirladigim kadari ile Uzman "magaralardaki insan iskeletlerinden"
> bahsediyordu bir yazisinda.
>
> Erol
Uzmanin bahsettigim yazisini Deja News te buldum.
SCTM de moderator adayi oldugu icin bu yazisini asagida
not geciyorum. Eyyi gunler.
Subject: Kapadokya'nin Yunanlilari
From: "Uzman" <uz...@urgentmail.com>
Date: 1997/08/24
Message-Id: <01bcb0a8$04ebfc60$LocalHost@default>
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.turkish
[More Headers]
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
Merhaba,
gectigimiz gunlerde "ARTE" televizyonunda cok guzel bir belgesel
vardi. Almanca. Birinci Dunya Savasi sonrasinda Turkiye ile
Yunanistan
arasinda varilan goc anlasmasi cercevesinde Kapadokya'dan
ayrilmak
durumunda kalan Anadolu Yunanlilari anlatiliyordu. Giden
Yunanlilarin
yerine Yunanistan'daki Turkler goc etmisti.
Konuya cok yabanci olmamama ragmen Kapadokya'da karsilikli goc
oldugunu bilmiyordum. Sonra okul kitaplarinda okudugum sekliyle
Kurtulus Savasimiz aklima geldi. O zamanlar kendi kendime
sormustum:
Yunanlilar niye Ankara'ya kadar gelmisti, diye. Demek bu
nedenle.
Sonra dogdugum koy geldi aklima. Eskiden karma bir koymus.
Ermeniler
de varmis. Birileri birilerine kizmis, kavgalar baslamis. Koyun
kurulu
oldugu yamacin ustunde buyuk magaralar vardi. Gezerdim kucukken,
buldugum iskeletlere anlam veremezdim. Magara duvarlarindaki
islere de
anlam veremezdim. Simdi Ermenilerden sadece ambar olarak
kullanilan
bir kilise var. Kemikleri magaralarda.
Geriye ne kaldi ? Ermenilerle, Yunanlilarla aramizda bir
dusmanlik.
Herkes herkese mutlaka iyilik yapmadi. Bunu anlamakta neden bu
kadar
zorlaniyoruz ? Yunan mutfaginda Turk yemekleri olmasiyla
ovunuruz. Iyi
de baska ne olacakti ? Onlar bizim komsumuzdu, biz de onlarin
komsusu.
Ne kadar kolay unutuyoruz ! Hatta bazilari Turkce adlarini bile
kullaniyor hala. Gormediniz mi ?
Bunlari anlamakta, kabul etmekte "zorluk" cektigimiz icin de
baristan
o kadar uzaktayiz.
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Selman Akbulut
> Murat Kalinyaprak:
> I would appreciate if you didn't declare you misinterpretations,
> without substanciating them beyond sending people (who may
> not even understand Turkish) to DejeNews archives, to read
> about some past discussions (in Turkish language). For the
> remarks you made above, I invite you to find the articles
> you are referring to, quote and translate whatever parts
> you feel may be useful to backup your above words...
Everything I have expressed here was based on the articles written in SCT
by you and me (which have been archived by Dejanews). If you want them to
be translated to other languages (such as Turkish to English), I suggest
you hire a professional translator.
> Murat Kalinyaprak:
> And how did you determine that I am not tolerant...? You
> grown-up wanna-be kids can not even tolerate "swear-words"
I am personally not against using any kind of swear-words (since I believe
this concept is relative).., So I don't have problems with usage of
swear-words, and I don't believe in restricting "freedom of speech" by any
kind of taboos, I expressed this on SCT many times in the past (e.g. see
my SCT aricle "Tabulari Yikma gunu" from Dejanews archives - translation:
"The breaking the taboos day"). SCTM FAQ may not exactly have the same
views, but I still support the good intentioned afforts of those who are
trying to form SCTM.
*For me the most important newsgroup abuses are:
- Posting long articles over/and over/ and over....
- While replying long aricles with "one liners", reposting the whole
article (even though it is unrelated) over/and over/and over...
- Slandering people, trying to settle personal problems with someone (e.g.
by making personal charges, creating defomation - I am never sure how much
moderators would be legally affected in a "libellous" situation).
Selman Akbulut
--------------
Selman Akbulut
>> Selman Akbulut wrote:
>> Buna benzer bir olay gecen yil Universitemizde oldu: Burada gecen
>> yilin TSA baskani (hukumet burslusu bir ogrenci) Dinar depremi
>> dolaysiyla Kizilay'a para yardimi yapmak isteyen Universite Dekan'ini
>> "Kizilay bu paralari suistimal eder" diye durdurdu (ve Dekan'a
>> Kizilay yerine yardimi ozel bir Turk-Amerikan dernegi vasitasiyla
>> yapmasini onerdi, fakat Dekan bunu kabul etmedi).
> Mehmet Yagci:
> Selman, ne kadar yalanci oldugun yine ortada. Dinar Kaymakaminin
> yaptigimiz yardim icin gondermis oldugu tesekkur mektubu hala
> elimde. Senin onca engellemelerine ragmen gonderdik.
Kimse sizin OZEL olarak Turkiye'ye yaptiginiz yardimdan bahsetmiyor!,
burada bahsedilen: Bir Michigan State Universitesi Dekan'ninin, bir Turk
ogrenci dernegi ba$kaninin davrani$indan dolayi, Dinar'a Kizilay
vasitasiyla yapmak istedigi yardimi yapmaktan vazgecmesidir (dekan
yardimcisi Joe Cousin'in bu dernek ba$kani hakkinda bana soyledikleri "I
can't believe he did that!"...)
> Mehmet Yagci:
> Selman, senin sozunden cikmayan, baskanlik icin "promote" ettigin
> asistanin dernek baskani iken "Turk olmaktan utaniyorum" demedi mi?
Bu ahlaksizca yalan soylemeyi size yaki$tiramiyorum, olmu$ olan olay
sizden onceki TSA ba$kaninin (KESIN olarak benim asistanim degildir/
gecmi$te de hicbir zamanda olmadi) sizin Universitedeki davra$lariniza
bakarak "Burada Turk ogrencilerinden biri olmaktan utaniyorum" demesidir.
Karalamaya cali$tiginiz bu gecmi$ TSA ba$kani zamaninda MSU da yapilan
projeler: (1) Mumtaz Soysal'in buraya getirilip "Turkiye di$ politikasi"
agirlikli konu$malar verdirilmesi (biliyorsunuz o zaman sayin Soysal daha
yeni di$ i$leri bakanligi yapmi$ti - ayrica TSA ba$kani Soysal'in UM ve
Chicago ziyaretlerine de yardimci oldu), (2) O zamanlar kan aglayan
Bosna'ya, MSU'da yardim kampanyasi-konseri duzenleyip, onun sonucu $1,000
lik bir yardimi oradaki yetim cocuklara yollamasi (hepimiz Bosna di$
i$leri bakani Muhammed $akirbey'in dokunakli te$ekkur mektubunu
hatirliyoruz) (3) MSU da Turkler arasi ileti$imi artirmak icin, bir suru
kostekleme cabalarina ragmen, ilk defa "listserver listesi" kurmak ($imdi
bu liste sayisi ikiye cikti). Maalesef bu ba$kan ilk defa MSU tarihinde 6
ay icinde (genelde ba$kanlar en az 1 yillik secilir) tepkisel
davrani$larla ala$agi edildi...
> Mehmet Yagci:
> Bu arada, TAMTURK'u listeden neden attin? Onu listeye geri
> isteyen olmadi mi?
Kimin listeye girip ciktigi $u anda seni ilgilendirmez, bu karari ANADOLU
dernek tuzugune gore kendisi verir (bu konuda gecen yilki ANADOLU dernegi
ba$kani Figen Lacin'in yakinlarda Tamturk'un yazisina cevap olarak SCT nin
"Kufursuz bir SCT icin" thread'inde yazdigi aciklamaya bakiniz)..
Evet liste tuzugune gore listeden cikarilmi$ bir iki ki$inin gecmi$te
izledigimiz reaksiyonlari: Ozel listeler duzenleyip ve SCT ye cikip "bak
ben seni elaleme nasil rezil ederim!" turunden liste sorumlusuna kar$i
kufur ve "slander" kampanyasi yapmalari...
> Mehmet Yagci:
> Zaten, sen bir arkadasimizi baska bir nedenden dolayi
>"Judiciary Committee"e vermistin. Ama sonucta ne oldugunu gorduk.
Ben kimseyi $imdiye kadar universitenin "Judiciary Committee" sine
vermedim (eger siz MSU ya bir sebepten geri transfer ederseniz bu
degi$ebilir), fakat gecmi$te listede bir kiz ogrencinin ozel hayatini
iceren hakaret yazilarindan dolayi "MSU Judiciary Committee" bir uyeye
"IHTAR" cezasi verdi, ayni $ekilde listeye "Hirsizlar, bu listeyi bilmem
nereden caldiniz!" suclamasi getiren bir ki$i diger bazi uyeler
Mehmet Yagci
> Selman Akbulut wrote:
> Maalesef sayin Yagci bir yil icinde MSU'dan ayrilip ba$ka bir universiteye
> transfer ettiginden, bu "academic dishonesty" davrani$ini duzeltmesi icin
> kendisini "Judiciary Committe" ye gondermek firsatim olmadi (eger kendisi
> bir sebebten geriye transfer ederse, bu davrani$inin hesabini MSU
> "Judiciary Committee" sine verecektir).
sikayet etmistin? Bilmiyorum ve hala merak eder dururum. Lutfen surada
acikla da ben de ogreneyim.
Bir de son olarak, onceden de sormustum ama yanit alamamistim. MSU Turk
Mezunlar Dernegine olan antipatin neden kaynaklaniyor? Bunun onceden
orada ogrenim goren bir Turk mezun ile ilgisi var mi? Bunca yalana sadece
o kisiye olan kisisel kirginligin dolayisiyla mi bas vurdun?
Simdilik bunlari cevapla yeter. Belki sonra baska sorularim da olabilir.
Iyi uykular (ya da iyi sabahlar)
Mehmet YAGCI
Selman Akbulut
> Chris Stone
> (BTW, remember that most folks on the news.groups end will
> not understand quotations in Turkish.)
>
> My point is this. Obviously the issue of religious dress
> (veils, beards, etc.) is a very contentious one in Turkey,
> and it is very politicized. I would not want to see political
>litmus tests and ultimatiums applied to moderators.
Mr Stone, I am sorry about overlooking the readers of "news.groups" that
don't read Turkish. I will try to remember this in the future, but I find
it easier to reply Turkish articles Turkish, English articles English...
Maybe to make it up to you just for one time, I will put the translation
of my previous Turkish reply to Mr Kalinyaprak's many previous postings
supporting the ban on some national/religious garments, and growing beard
in Turkey:
*original:
---------
Sayin Kalinyaprak, tarihin her caginda ba$kalarinin
temel haklarini kisitlamayi kendine gorev gormu$
gerici ki$iler ve kurumlar cikmi$tir, ornegin:
-Iran'daki mini etek polisleri...
-Hitler Almanya'sinda, ba$ina yamuka giyiyor diye
universitelerden kovulan yahudi bilim adamlari...
-Utah'taki kizilderili cocuklarin ananevi elbise
giymesini yasaklayan mormon papazlari...
Daha ba$ka yerlerde de bu tur kisitlamalara ornekler
bulmak icin tarihte birkac asir geriye gitmek lazim....
Onun icin yukaridaki satirlarinizi uzulerek okudum.
------
*translation:
---------
Mr Kalinyaprak, at every stage of history there have
been zealots and institutions who concern themselves
with banning other peoples basic rights, examples:
-Miniskirt patrols in Iran.
-Jewish academicians that have been fired from
universities in Hitler's Germany, because they wore yamukas.
-Native american kids that have been prevented
by mormon church, to wear their traditional dresses.
To find other such examples, one has to look several
centuries back in the history. That is why, I was sad
to see what you have written in your articles..
-------
Selman Akbulut
---
Aahz
In article <akbulut-1110...@pm175-11.dialip.mich.net>,
Selman Akbulut <akb...@math.msu.edu> wrote:
> Chris Stone:
>> My point is this. Obviously the issue of religious dress (veils, beards,
>> etc.) is a very contentious one in Turkey, and it is very politicized. I
>> would not want to see political litmus tests and ultimatiums applied to
>> moderators.
>
>being a "moderator"?...
It depends on whether the moderator is "trustworthy"; there are many
otherwise-intolerant people who believe in free speech to the point that
they can honorably discharge their duties as moderator without
prejudice. You and the other SCTM voters will have to decide whether
the proposed moderators fit in this category.
--
--- Aahz (@netcom.com)
Hugs and backrubs -- I break Rule 6 <*> http://www.bayarea.net/~aahz
Androgynous poly kinky vanilla queer het
"It has been said that man is a rational animal. All my life I have been
searching for evidence which could support this." -- Bertrand Russell
Hakki Kocabas
> Since there are already provisions to expel "rogue" moderators,
> moderators who don't abide by the rules, etc. I request that,
> at this stage and at any time later, anybody who wants to be
> a moderator should be admitted without any questions. (This
> may require an easier way to expel, than 2/3 majority rule.)
>
;->RO(T/F)L
|-| /-\ |-< |-< |||
>
> MK
Hakki Kocabas
Ohhoooo desene SCTM $imdiden Bekta$i Tekkesine donu$mu$;->RO(T/F)L
|-| /-\ |-< |-< |||
not: hehhe..hehhe..hee..bir tek satirla verilen cevaplar
kabul edilmeeeez;-))) This makes it three;-)))
>
> Mehmet YAGCI
Hakki Kocabas
In message <<61n0dh$m2u$1...@lynx.unm.edu>> cst...@math.math.unm.edu writes:
> Selman Akbulut <akb...@math.msu.edu> wrote:
>
> >??..Is this being addressed to Mr Kalinyaprak or to me? It looks like you
> >are writing to Mr Kalinyaprak.. I have always believed that everyone
> >should be able dress as they wish.
>
> I was wrong, though. I am sorry for misinterpreting what you wrote.
> quotations in Turkish.)
>
> etc.) is a very contentious one in Turkey, and it is very politicized. I
> would not want to see political litmus tests and ultimatiums applied to
> moderators.
hehhe..hehhe..hee.._stone_....
her ta$in altindan bu ta$kafa cikmasa olmaz;-))
|-| /-\ |-< |-< |||
Hakki Kocabas
In message <<343EC5...@worldnet.att.net>> RACER <MX-R...@worldnet.att.net> writes:
> >
> > DIKKAT:
> > >
> > > > > >Moderator: Zafer Bozkus <boz...@narwhal.cc.metu.edu.tr>
> > > > > >Moderator: Huseyin Vural <hvu...@narwhal.cc.metu.edu.tr>
> > >
> > > > > Murat Kalinyaprak:
> > > > > As a regular of SCT for the past couple of years,
> > > > > I don't even recognize the first amd the last one
> > > > > on the list. Are we supposed to think that they
> > > > > were just quiet readers? (i.e. SCT was good enough
> > > > > for them to read but not to post?)
ben de bunlarin adini ilk defa duyuyorum, 1990'dan beridir
bu gurubu hemen hergun takip ederim;->
Bana oyle geliyor ki Bekta$iler SCT'ye TC'den katilimi
kilitledikleri icin SCTM gibi gudumlu bir ortamdan
bu ihtiyaca cevap vermeye cali$iyorlar...SCT'ye
TC adresli yazi gelmesi yildiz kaymasi gibi gozlem
gerektirir...belki bir kac postmaster'in yazisi
cikmi$tir birkac kere, i$te o kadar...bunlar SCT'ye
bok atmaya gelince koro halinde icraata gecerler
yazi yazmaya gelince de elleri baglidir Bekta$i
Babalari onunde;->RO(T/F)L
|-| /-\ |-< |-< |||
> >
> > Bu isimlerin her ikisi de Selman Akbulut'un yakin arkadaslaridir.
> > Bilmeyenler ogrensin de sonradan biri moderator olursa "remote" olarak
> > kimin moderator olacagini gorursunuz.
> >
> > Selman Akbulut aday degilmis. Breh, breh.
> > Ama adaylari var, hem bir degil iki tane.
> >
> > Mehmet YAGCI
>
>
> Yahu anlamadiniz mi bu adamlar tam bir partizan kafa ile bu gurubu
> kurmaya calisiyorlar. Partizan ve karanlik amacli SCTM'ye HAYIR!!!!
HAYIR demeeeeeee...HAYIR demeeeeee fakat EVET de deme;-))
Hakki Kocabas
> opinion the most important virtue a moderator should possess is
> TOLERANCE...
>
if what you say is true, then perhaps SCT should become a
moderator to SCTM;->RO(T/F)L
|-| /-\ |-< |-< |||
Hakki Kocabas
> Sayin Kalinyaprak, tarihin her caginda ba$kalarinin
> temel haklarini kisitlamayi kendine gorev gormu$
> gerici ki$iler ve kurumlar cikmi$tir, ornegin:
>
> -Iran'daki mini etek polisleri...
TC'deki sarik, ba$ortu avcisi askeri/sivil polisleri
saymadan gecmeeee;-)
> -Hitler Almanya'sinda, ba$ina yamuka giyiyor diye
> universitelerden kovulan yahudi bilim adamlari...
> -Utah'taki kizilderili cocuklarin ananevi elbise
> giymesini yasaklayan mormon papazlari...
>
> Daha ba$ka yerlerde de bu tur kisitlamalara ornekler
> bulmak icin tarihte birkac asir geriye gitmek lazim....
> Onun icin yukaridaki satirlarinizi uzulerek okudum.
Onun icin yukaridaki satirlarinida bahsetmediginiz
guncel bir olayi bulamamaktan cok uzuntu duyduk;-)))
> ------
>
> *translation:
> ---------
> Mr Kalinyaprak, at every stage of history there have
> been zealots and institutions who concern themselves
> with bannig other peoples basic rights, examples:
>
> -Miniskirt patrols in Iran.
Don't forget to mention the military-police
and civil-police who ran after turbans and head-scarves;-))
> -Jewish academicians that have been fired from
> universities in Hitler's Germany, because they wore yamukas.
> -Native american kids that have been prevented
> by mormon church, to wear their traditional dresses.
>
> To find other such examples, one has to look several
> centuries back in the history. That is why, I was sad
> to see what you have written in your articles..
And we are sad about what you have not written
in your article;->RO(T/F)L
|-| /-\ |-< |-< |||
> -------
>
> Selman Akbulut
> ---
Hakki Kocabas
>
> SCTM is intended to be a forum to discuss issues related to Turkey and
> Turks.
Why should it be turks only? In turkey there are other
peoples like armenians, kurds, greeks-romans, bosnians
and many others..those people are turkish citizens
but belong to different nations...by shying them out
by moderated groups like SCTM would push them to
form their own groups like soc.culture.turkey.armenians,
soc.cultire.turkey.jews, soc.culture.turkey.kurds...etc..
SCT is open to all those groups of people, more it
is also open to sub-cultures like doenmehs, bekta$is,
masons..etc.
|-| /-\ |-< |-< |||
>
> Yusuf
Murat Kalinyaprak
In <wkoh4w1...@my-silly.nwu.edu> Yusuf Pisan wrote:
>In <61mq2c$hto$1...@news.chatlink.com> Murat Kalinyaprak writes:
>> I believe I often used the words "more focused", rather
>> than "more restricted",
> SCTM or any other newsgroup can always be more restrictive
> in their topics. The RFD for SCTM was written to allow all
> topics related to Turkey and Turks to be discussed on SCTM;
> we do not wish to make it more restrictive at this point.
I wish you had responded using the word "focused" (which I
indicated as my preferred one) rather than "resricted"...
Thinking on this subject, I remembered that similar issues
had been previously discussed in SCT, and I wanted to read
some old articles in "DejaNews" archives. When I did some
word searches, I was beyond belief that every single one of
Yusuf Pisan's articles (older than a month?) were erased...
This is one of the most unique and curious things I have
ever witnessed on "Usenet". I would like to know whether
somebody god mad at him and wiped his articles or whether
he erased them himself. If it is the latter case, I would
like Yusuf Pisan (SCTM mentor/moderator) to please explain
why and how he did this...?
Anyway, I was still able to locate the below article, which
was in response to one of his:
------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: Re: soc.culture.idiots
From: mso...@mistik.express.net (Mustafa Soysal MS57)
Date: 1997/03/20
Message-Id: <5gsctd$i...@client2.news.psi.net>
Newsgroups: soc.culture.turkish
In article <wkvi6nz...@nwu.edu> Yusuf Pisan wrote:
.
>- Konulari kisitlamazsak, Mustafa Soysal'in "Donme Ataturk"
>tipli yari dogru yari yanlis makaleleri yien yayinlanir.
------------------------------------------------------------
In translation Yusuf Pisan says: "If we don't restrict the
subjects, half-true half-false articles, similar to "Donme
Ataturk" from Mustafa Soysal, may still be published".
Also notice the subject header "Re: soc.culture.idiots"...
Fron the way this SCTM has been proposed (more on this later),
I kind of had the impression that it may have been an effort
to create a new group for the "educated, progressive, liberal,
democrat, etc. (and of couse *polite*) elite-wannabe few". And
I think it may be time to seriously ponder this question...
> As for Murat's examples, "Mac vs Windows" discussion would
> not be appropriate on SCTM unless it related to Turks and
> Turkey in a way more deeper than "some Turkish people use
> Macs others use Windows". SCTM is intended to be a forum to
> discuss issues related to Turkey and Turks.
For a little more comfort, I would like to see more explicit
answers/examples, please...
For example, will SCTM allow
- Mustafa Soysal to write about "Donme Ataturk"?
- Political activist organizations, like Widersand, AKIN,
PUK, Armenian National Committee, Arm the Spirit, etc.,
to post news, press-releases, action-alerts, etc. (most
of which appear verbatim on their web sites)?
- People like "Hanife" to openly advocate terrorism?
- "Azadi97"s poem that has been previously mentioned?
Talking about this poem, was the final answer to my previous
question, that it would be published in SCTM not 30 times,
but once...? If this is the case, I also would like to ask
the following question:
- That poem was posted as a reply to article with the titles
"Re: TURKISH NATIONALISM", "Re: TRKNWS-L Spor haberleri",
"Re: Turkce ibadet" (twice), "Re: Sir Steven Runciman --
of Istanbul and Athens", "Re: PKK Tikacini Kullananlara",
"Re: PUK LATEST", "Re: Ataturke dil uzatanlara cevabim",
"Re: Kemal's wife" (twice), "Re: Bir Yazi: Devlet-Ulus",
"Re: Ataturk, ONEMLI", "Re: TRKNWS-L Press Review 07.10.97"
Which one of these threads would Yusuf Pisan find most
appropriate to allow one occurence of that poem be posted
as an acceptable, on-topic reply...?
> Yusuf
Now, I woul like to make a few more comments and raise a few
more questions, if I may...
The first time I become aware of the efforts towards creating
an SCTM, was from an e-mail I received from Yusuf Pisan, on
23 Sep 1997. It started with:
"Selam,
"soc.culture.turkish (sct)'nin durumu ortada. Uzerinde dusunulmus
"tartismalar yerine kufur dolu kavgalar var. Internet'e yeni.....
"(Translation: The state of SCT is obvious. Instead of thoughtful
"debates, there are swear filled fights.)
I have quoted the above to illustrate what was stressed right
out of the bat... Not to be lengthy, I'll just pick a few more
sentences from the next 3 paragraphs:
"konularin kufursuzce tartisildigi bir grup kuralim" (Let's
"create a group where subjects are discussed without swearing).
"Tek sansurlenecek sey kufurler" (The only things that will be
"censored are swear-words).
Forgive me if I'm being overly suspicious, but since I personally
don't see "eliminating swear-words" a good enough reason to create
a new group, I just can't help wondering if there is something
more underneath this. I am still not decidedly against an SCTM,
but I am not convinced at all that it is needed for the purpose
intended either...
"Gelin bu yeni gurubun kurallarini tartisalim. SCT'deki
"demogoglar yuzunden tartisamayacagimiz icin sct.moderated
"kurulmasi konusunu tartismak icin yeni bir email listesi
"yarattim. .....Eger tartismanin sonucunda sct.moderated'e
"ihtiyac olmadigi ortaya cikarsa, listeyi kapatiriz. Eger
"en az 100-200 kisi sct.moderated listesini destekliyorsa
"o zaman bunu sct'de duyurur, konuyu tekrar sct de tartisiriz.
"(Translation: Let's discuss the rules of this new group.
"Since we can't discuss this because of the demagogues in
"SCT, I have created a new e-mail list to discuss the subject
"of creating sct.moderated. As the result of this discussion,
"if it becomes apparent that sct.moderated is not needed,
"we'll close the e-mail list. If at least 100-200 people
"support sct.moderated, then we can announce this in SCT and
"re-discuss the subject there.)"
The RFD was posted in SCT on or before October 8th, merely 2
weeks after this e-mail. I would be very curious to know how
many people ever subcribed to the above mentioned temporary
list, did a discussion take place and were there at least
100-200 people supporting the creation of SCTM...? I hope
Yusuf Pisan would not mind answering these questions.
MK
Murat Ataman
In article <61padr$rf9$1...@news.chatlink.com>, mu...@cyberport.net (Murat
Kalinyaprak) wrote:
Well, I am a Turk and this relates to me, and who is to say this doesn't
relate to others as well. If it doesn't, then please tell me how the
discussion topic about Linux Users Group relate to Turkey and Turkish
culture??? Turkish people may well be interested about the comparisons and
information on Mac vs. Windows systems, and who is to say these don't
relate to Turks? Should Turks only be interested in Turkish history and
ethnic issues? How about the latest technologies in mining or nukcear
plants?? How do they relate? In other words, should Turks only relate
themselves topics which moderators pick as acceptable? What an odd thing
to say... Then I'd say this newsgroup does NOT deserve the name
soc.culture.turkish.moderated, since it will only contain articles which
are acceptable to the moderators' personal criteria.
Then who is to say English is an appropriate language to use in this SCTM
newsgroup, since English language doesn't relate to Turkish culture at
all...
Aaahh, English can be used to able foreigners/Turkish non-speakers to be
involved in discussions and learn about Turkish culture. Then, can I make
postings in that newsgroup in Japanese language, mainly to inform Japanese
readers about the Turkish Culture? (I'm asking this again, since I've
asked this before and received no answer)
zafer bozkus
On Fri, 10 Oct 1997, Mehmet Yagci wrote:
> DIKKAT:
> >
> > > > >Moderator: Zafer Bozkus <boz...@narwhal.cc.metu.edu.tr>
> > > > >Moderator: Huseyin Vural <hvu...@narwhal.cc.metu.edu.tr>
> >
> > > > Murat Kalinyaprak:
> > > > As a regular of SCT for the past couple of years,
> > > > I don't even recognize the first amd the last one
> > > > on the list. Are we supposed to think that they
> > > > were just quiet readers? (i.e. SCT was good enough
> > > > for them to read but not to post?)
>
> Bu isimlerin her ikisi de Selman Akbulut'un yakin arkadaslaridir.
> Bilmeyenler ogrensin de sonradan biri moderator olursa "remote" olarak
> kimin moderator olacagini gorursunuz.
>
> Selman Akbulut aday degilmis. Breh, breh.
> Ama adaylari var, hem bir degil iki tane.
>
> Mehmet YAGCI
>
Sayin Yagci:
Goruyorum ki, Selman Akbulut'a olan kininiz katlanmis olarak devam
ediyor, MSU'dan ayrilmis olmaniza ragmen. Yukaridaki sozlerinizden
gerek Sn. Vural'in gerekse benim kisilik haklarima saygisizlik ettiginizi
bilmem soylemeye gerek var mi? Yukarida acikca Selman'in beni ve Sn.
Vural'i uzaktan kumanda ile yonetecegini ima ediyorsunuz. Bu yaptiginiz
bir terbiyesizliktir. Ve suctur. Ozellikle bulundugunuz ulkede bu tur
kisilik karalamalari hos karsilanmaz ve yargi yolu aciktir.
Size tavsiyem mesnetsiz kisilik karalamalarindan uzak durunuz.
Benim Turkleri ilgilendiren konularda yazdigim yazilar SCT arsivlerinde
mevcuttur. Istiyen gidip o arsivleri karistirip o zaman belirttigim
dusuncelerimi ogrenebilir. Ve benim hakkimda bir yargiya varabilir.
Sn. Murat Kalinyaprak'in dedigi gibi son yillarda SCT'ye yazmadigim
dogrudur. Biz Turkiye'de yasayanlar hayat mucadelesi icinde maalesef
SCT'deki tartismalara aktif olarak katilamiyoruz. Burada cogumuz son
derece guc kosullarda yasiyor. Son benzine yapilan %9 zam, ki bir kac
ay once %32 ve %5 zamlar zaten yapilmisti, bizi iyice etkiledi.
Aldigim 85 m TL maasin karsiliginda oturdugum evin kirasinin
39 m oldugunu, her ay verdigim yakit masrafinin 10 m civarinda
oldugunu, cocuklarimi okula goturmek icin kullandigim 94 model
arabamin aylik benzin masrafinin 20 m gectigini, bir kilo
etin kilosunun nerdeyse 1.5 milyona vardigini soylersem ve ODTU'de
bir hoca olarak ders verdigimi, arastirma yapmaya calistigimi
soylersem sanirim bana hak vereceksiniz. Haa simdi ne degisti de
moderatorluge soyundunuz diyen olursa diyecegim sudur. SCTM'nin
kurulmasi gerektigine ictenlikle inaniyorum. Ayni zamanda SCT'ninde
varligina devam etmesini yurekten istiyorum. Ikisi farkli platformlar
ve ikisi de islevini surdurmeli bence. SCTM'deki moderatorlugum uzun
surmeyecek, sadece kurulusunda bir katkim olsun diye soyundum bu ise.
SCTM'nin kurulmasi gerceklesir gerceklesmez zaten ayrilacagim. Ustte
saydigim nedenlerden dolayi bu isin yogun temposuna ayak uyduracagimi
zannetmiyorum. Bu isi orada benden daha iyi yapacak biri ile yerimin
kolaylikla doldurulacagina inaniyorum. Bosalacak yerime Sn. Yagci'nin
aday olmasinda bir sakinca oldugunu zannetmiyorum.
Ozetle, Sn. Yagci, biz Turk'leri ilgilendiren o kadar cok onemli konular
varken, birbirimizle ugrasmamizin sizce de dogru olmadigina inandiginiza
inanmak istiyorum. Selman'i seversiniz yada sevmezsiniz o sizin
kisisel sorununuz. Ama Selman'i veya herhangi birisini lutfen
yazdiklari yazilarda belirttikleri dusunceleri acisindan
yine dusunce bazinda elestirmeye calisiniz. Kimseye camur atmayiniz.
Bu sizin gibi akademik calismalar yapan birine yakismiyor.
SCTM'de camursuz, temiz yazilarinizi gormek dilekleri ile..
Saygilarimla,
Zafer Bozkus
Hakan Oksuzoglu
Yusuf Pisan wrote:
>
> SCTM is intended to be a forum to discuss issues related to Turkey and
> Turks.
It seems that the only reason for the proposed news group is to filter
out the noise. Although I sympathize with that, I am not convinced
that it is the only alternative.
Moderation can be done within SCT. The people who volunteer to be
moderators can collect and post messages by forwarding them with their
signatures.
The people who wants to receive the filtered news can sort the news
by sender and simply don't read the rest. (how to prevent forgeries
is another issue)
Some advantages of that
- Anybody can be a moderator without asking anybody else
- Anybody can change moderators anytime s/he wants
- Any moderator can quit anytime
Some of the reasons I have an objection to SCTM
- It is redundant (SCT is here)
- Central authority tends to corrupt
- It may be difficult to get rid of it once it is corrupted
- A political discussion forum should not be moderated
(I would not object to a SCTM with a limited focus such as news
and announcements)
by the way, I regularly read the news posted by Yusuf Pisan. He would
be one of the moderators( or should I say reviewers )I would prefer to
read. I don't have any problems with the other proposed moderators also.
--
Hakan Oksuzoglu
Aahz
In article <wk67r3t...@My-Silly.nwu.edu>,
Yusuf Pisan <y-p...@nwu.edu> wrote:
>
>Neither Murat Kalinyaprak nor Selman Akbulut is one of the
>moderators. We do not need to discuss their viewpoints on issues. We
>should concentrate on the rules and regulations of SCTM.
That's fine as far as it goes, but the qualifications and
trustworthiness of the moderators listed in the RFD *are* appropriate
for discussion. I think it's important that everyone realize that.
It's also generally considered fair game to ask the proponents and
proposed moderators questions about how they would handle specific
situations, particularly with regard to situations and people that
already exist in the newsgroup.
--
--- Aahz (@netcom.com)
Hugs and backrubs -- I break Rule 6 <*> http://www.bayarea.net/~aahz
Androgynous poly kinky vanilla queer het
The best way to get information on Usenet is not to ask a question,
but to post the wrong information.
mur...@creighton.edu
On Sun, 12 Oct 1997, Murat Kalinyaprak wrote:
[...]
:> "Gelin bu yeni gurubun kurallarini tartisalim. SCT'deki
:> "demogoglar yuzunden tartisamayacagimiz icin sct.moderated
:> "kurulmasi konusunu tartismak icin yeni bir email listesi
:> "yarattim. .....Eger tartismanin sonucunda sct.moderated'e
:> "ihtiyac olmadigi ortaya cikarsa, listeyi kapatiriz. Eger
:> "en az 100-200 kisi sct.moderated listesini destekliyorsa
:> "o zaman bunu sct'de duyurur, konuyu tekrar sct de tartisiriz.
:>
:> "(Translation: Let's discuss the rules of this new group.
:> "Since we can't discuss this because of the demagogues in
:> "SCT, I have created a new e-mail list to discuss the subject
:> "of creating sct.moderated. As the result of this discussion,
:> "if it becomes apparent that sct.moderated is not needed,
:> "we'll close the e-mail list. If at least 100-200 people
:> "support sct.moderated, then we can announce this in SCT and
:> "re-discuss the subject there.)"
Hehehe! "Demagogues in SCT..." We know who they are: those who use
fallacies, such as misrepresenting the sets and subsets as done by
Yusuf Pisan, and double standards, such as praising a message that
contains an insult, just because the person posted the message was
pro SCTM, as done by Selman Akbulut.
Message IDs are <wk90w5h...@nwu.edu> and
<akbulut-0710...@pm172-11.dialip.mich.net> respectively.
Murat
PS. Parrot said: "Murat will change your axioms!"
Selman Akbulut
> mur...@creighton.edu wrote:
>... such as praising a message that contains an insult,
> pro SCTM, as done by Selman Akbulut.
I don't remember doing this, if I inadvertently did that please accept my
apologies, better yet remind me by posting that message if it is not long
(post part of it, or give Dejanews reference if it is long) so I can
directly express my disagreement with the "insult".
Selman Akbulut
-------------
Erol Keskin
Selman Akbulut wrote:
(Hehehe! "Demagogues in SCT..." We know who they are: those who use
fallacies, such as misrepresenting the sets and subsets as done by
Yusuf Pisan, and double standards, such as praising a message that
contains an insult, just because the person posted the message was
pro SCTM, as done by Selman Akbulut.
Message IDs are <wk90w5h...@nwu.edu> and
<akbulut-0710...@pm172-11.dialip.mich.net> respectively.
Murat
PS. Parrot said: "Murat will change your axioms!")
Sen once ne okudugunu anla. Murat sana msg ID numarasini veriyor,
sen de kalkip onun senin mesajini yeniden yayinlamasi ya da Deja
News referansi vermesini istiyorsun. Bu senin psikolojik yapinin
kucuk bir ornegi. Okudugunu anlamayan, belki de anlayamayan bir
Usenet vatandasisin.
Ben seni daha "ccoooook" oturturum kucagima.
Erol
mur...@creighton.edu
On 12 Oct 1997, Chris Stone wrote:
:> In article <murat-12109...@lax-ca21-10.ix.netcom.com>,
:> Murat Ataman <mu...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
:>
:> >Well, I am a Turk and this relates to me, and who is to say this
:> >doesn't relate to others as well. If it doesn't, then please tell me
:> >how the discussion topic about Linux Users Group relate to Turkey and
:> >Turkish culture??? Turkish people may well be interested about the
:> >comparisons and information on Mac vs. Windows systems, and who is to
:> >say these don't relate to Turks?
:>
:> Me, I suppose. :) Mac vs. Windows flamewars belong on the appropriate
:> comp.os.* newsgroup. Merely because Turks use these operating systems
:> does not mean they are on-topic on s.c.turkish. If we used *that*
:> rationale, we would get Mac vs. PC flamewars in every soc.culture.*
:> group in existence.
:>
:> >Should Turks only be interested in Turkish history and ethnic issues?
:>
:> Obviously not.
You're missing the language issue here. What is the point of
posting a message in Turkish to comp.os.* newsgroups if you do
not know English? If there is no person who knows your language
in that newsgroup, you will end up nowhere. You can, on the
other hand, find someone who can understand and respond in
Turkish when you write to SCT.
Soc.culture.* hierarchy provides not only a subject platform for
articles about a certain culture, people, or land. A particular
newsgroup under the hierarchy also acts as a language platform
covering a wide variety of subjects that maybe appropriate for
other newsgroups as well, provided that they are in English. In
this regard, soc.culture.* newsgroups are like an umbrella
sheltering a wider variety of messages than that they were
originally intended to.
I guess one of the difficulties of English-speaking people is to
see this characteristic of soc.culture.* newsgroups. Newsgroups
have seemingly been structured assuming--either explicitly or
tacitly--that English would be the common medium of communication.
However, this is not the case.
You may argue that everybody should know English for a bunch of
reasons to any of which I would not object at all due to the mere
fact that I, myself, am a polyglot. However, it takes time to
learn a language. :-) And yet one may have an urgent and
legitimate point to make, or question to ask in his/her own
language. It may not be so legitimate--yet rude--to refer him/her
to another newsgroup in which English "rules" if the person does
not know English.
Regards,
Brian Mailman
mur...@creighton.edu wrote:
>
> On 12 Oct 1997, Chris Stone wrote:
>
> :> In article <murat-12109...@lax-ca21-10.ix.netcom.com>,
> :> Murat Ataman <mu...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
> :>
> :> >doesn't relate to others as well. If it doesn't, then please tell me
> :> >how the discussion topic about Linux Users Group relate to Turkey and
> :> >Turkish culture??? Turkish people may well be interested about the
> :> >comparisons and information on Mac vs. Windows systems, and who is to
> :> >say these don't relate to Turks?
> :> Me, I suppose. :) Mac vs. Windows flamewars belong on the appropriate
> :> comp.os.* newsgroup. Merely because Turks use these operating systems
> :> does not mean they are on-topic on s.c.turkish. If we used *that*
> :> rationale, we would get Mac vs. PC flamewars in every soc.culture.*
> :> group in existence.
> :>
> :>
> :> Obviously not.
>
> You're missing the language issue here. What is the point of
> posting a message in Turkish to comp.os.* newsgroups if you do
> not know English? If there is no person who knows your language
> in that newsgroup, you will end up nowhere. You can, on the
> other hand, find someone who can understand and respond in
>
> ...You may argue that everybody should know English for a bunch of
> reasons to any of which I would not object at all due to the mere
> fact that I, myself, am a polyglot. However, it takes time to
> learn a language. :-) And yet one may have an urgent and
> legitimate point to make, or question to ask in his/her own
> language. It may not be so legitimate--yet rude--to refer him/her
> to another newsgroup in which English "rules" if the person does
Somebody 'splain me, please. Isn't this proposal to create a "twin"
newsgroup and not to change the status of the existing one? So SCT
and SCTM would co-exist and the posters who are monolingual (or
English isn't one of their languages) would still have a place to
post, no?
Brian Mailman
mur...@creighton.edu
On Sun, 12 Oct 1997, Brian Mailman wrote:
[...]
> Somebody 'splain me, please. Isn't this proposal to create a "twin"
> newsgroup and not to change the status of the existing one? So SCT
> and SCTM would co-exist and the posters who are monolingual (or
> English isn't one of their languages) would still have a place to
> post, no?
>
> Brian Mailman
Since not "that proposal" but a point made within the framework
of discussions regarding that proposal has broader implications
than the proposal itself, I changed the subject heading and gave
my opinion. The issue is not only related to SCT or SCTM, but to
all social.culture.* and social.culture.*.moderated groups in
which natives mostly use their own language.
At issue is a particular kind of individual. The individual who
does not know English, but has a legitimate point to raise or a
legitimate question to ask. The only platforms in which this
particular individual can make his/her point are those in which
others use languages that he/she knows. These platforms are by
default soc.culture.* and soc.culture.*.moderated newsgroups.
Therefore it would be either naive or--since I have already raised
the issue, from this point on, I have a right to regard it as
culturally and linguistically biased, and hence--hostile to
restrict messages sent to a soc.culture.* or soc.culture.*.moderated
newsgroup merely because subject can be more appropriate to some other
newsgroup while the message is not in English but in the language
widely used within that group.
I guess there will be a time when the whole newsgroup hierarchy may
need to be restructured with the languages on top, and the rest
following it such as english.soc.*, turkish.comp.*, chinese.rec.*,
etc. rather than the implicit "english" for all. However, since
the lack of a linguistic partitioning--which may be considered a
symptom for the myopia of its creators--is a reality, I oppose to
any restriction based on subject, without regarding language
whether there exists an unmoderated counterpart or not.
Murat
PS. What I wrote does not mean that I do not see a necessity for
a common medium of communication for Internet to discuss meta
issues, and English is not the best candidate. It is necessary
to have a common medium, and English is the best alternative in
my view. Yet it takes time to learn it, and the individual who
does not know it should not be denied to make his/her point.
An analogy--I will not defend this to death though--may be the
measures to accomodate disabled people within the society.
Erol Keskin
Hakan Basagaoglu wrote:
> Erol Keskin (er...@cmq.com) wrote:
> : Yusuf Pisan wrote: > below proposed moderators...?
> :
> : > Yes. He/she needs approval of the moderators.
> : >
> : > > >Moderator: Zafer Bozkus <boz...@narwhal.cc.metu.edu.tr>
> : > > >Moderator: Hasan Baha CAYIR <h...@turk.ch>
> : > > >Moderator: Yusuf Pisan <y-p...@nwu.edu>
> : > > >Moderator: Uzman <uz...@urgentmail.com>
> : > > >Moderator: Huseyin Vural <hvu...@narwhal.cc.metu.edu.tr>
> : > >
> :
> :
> :
> :
> : Sizin verdiginiz bu listeden "Uzman"in Ermeniler ve bilhassa Ermeni
> : katliami denen olay hakkindaki goruslerini ogrenebilirmiyim?
> :
> : Hatirladigim kadari ile Uzman "magaralardaki insan iskeletlerinden"
> : bahsediyordu bir yazisinda.
> :
> :
> : Erol
>
> Benim accountuma Uzman ve Macreau isimleri altinda gelen mesajlardan bu iki sahsin ayni kisi
> oldugu cok yuksek bir ihtimaldir. Direk accountuma bu isimler altinda gelen reply larda ismimin
> ozellikle "Hakan" yerine "Hasan" diye yazilmasi (zaman zaman cok fazla sekilde Hasan diye hitap
> edilmem uyarilarima karsin), arti SCT ye gondermis oldugum yazilara karsin her iki account dan da
> direk accountuma genelde mesaj gonderilmesi ve zaman zaman bunlarin hemen arkaya gelmeside yada
> cok kisa araliklarla gelmeside ilginctir. Yazim ve hitap tarzi acisindan da acccountuma gelen
> mesajlari arasinda cok belirgin bir benzerlik var.
> Uzman yazilarinin birinde Turkleri komsulari ile ilgili konularda haksiz oldugunu vurgulamis,
> (tabii yeni konsumuz Armenistan a da kredi sasglamis, diger accountunda ise aciktan aciga bu
> isin reklamini yapmistir.
> Diger bir ilginc nokta ise ismimi Hasan diye ('Hasan misin yada Hakan misin' diye yazan da Bill
> Mesrobian (? soyadini tam hatirlamiyorum) yazan bir ucuncu isimde Bill Mesrobian. Cok ilginc bir
> tesaduf olsa gerek!!!
> Sanirim Uzman(Macreau) in kimligi ve rengi oldukca belirgin SCT de de...
> Azeri Turklerinin nette kendi discussion grouplarina kostek olan ve bu konuda oldukca siki
> calisan bu arkdaslardan birini SCT nin moderator listesinde gormek oldukca dusundurucudur.
> ama olsun yasasin demokrasi falan fistik, adam terbiyeli kufur ediyor ya:-)))
> Hakan
Bu sctm ciler cok acaip. Uzmanin iskeletli yazisini DejaNews ten bulup yayinladiktan sonra
Selman Akbulut denen ne idugu belirsiz cazgirdan "yazmissa cok guzel yazmis, hata bunun ne_
resinde?" diye bir sacmalik geldi hepsi o kadar. Yusuf Pisan bu hususta uykuya daldi. Gorme_
mezlikten geldi. Kaldi ki bu moderator adayi listesini yayinlayan oydu. Yine Yusuf Pisan ben
bu moderatorler Turk/Turkiye karsiti propagandacilara donusecekler dedigimde, sanki bir tir_
tilin kelebege donusmesinden bahsediyormusum gibi yari alayli bir cevap gondermisti hatirla_
digim kadariyla.
Bir insanda once utanma duygusu olmali. O yoksa Turk olmus Ermeni ya da Kurt olmus ne farkeder?
Erol Keskin
Selman Akbulut
> > Murat <mur...@creighton.edu> wrote:
> >... such as praising a message that contains an insult,
> > just because the person posted the message was
> > pro SCTM, as done by Selman Akbulut.
> Selman Akbulut
> I don't remember doing this, if I inadvertently did that please
> accept my apologies, better yet remind me by posting that message
> if it is not long (post part of it, or give Dejanews reference if it is
long) > so I can directly express my disagreement with the "insult".
OK, I found both the "offending" message and my "praising" of it (from the
given id number). I see nothing insulting about that message. I am posting
both messages and their translations below for the benefit of non-Turkish
speakers.
This clearly demonstrates to me the kind of reactions one has to deal with
when trying to form a new newsgroup. Meekest of the meek remarks could be
offensive to some retrograde heads...
Let me spoil Murat's game: he is hoping to hear what I just said, and
preparing to respond: "See I showed to you that censoring is bad -->
moderated newsgroup is censoring ---> so idea for SCTM is bad !". Sorry
Murat your plan doesn't cut it... (Murat, I think it is about time you
retire that parrot to a zoo).
SCTM will be a welcome addition to the existing SCT. In my view, moderated
newsgroups are like edited journals, (even though they could be abused)
they are good ways of preventing following abuses which I mentioned in my
previous post:
- Posting long articles over/and over/ and over....
- While replying long articles with "one liners", reposting the whole
article (even though it is unrelated) over/and over/and over...
- Slandering people, trying to settle personal problems with someone
(e.g. by making personal charges, creating defomation - I am never
sure how much moderators would be legally affected in a "libellous"
situation).
I also said previously: "I myself don't have problems with swear-words".
-------------------
* "offending" message:
>> Ya bu tarti4ma luzumundan fazla uzadi. Kim hazirlayaksa hazirlasin 4u
>> CFD olayini SCTM icin begenen begenmeyen oyunu versin. Benden Marv Albert
>> vari kocaman bir "Yes". Biktim hergun bir suru molozun yazisini silmekten
>> hergun. Isteyen istedigi yere gitsin dala$sin kufur ve hakaret etsin.
>> C. Akgun
* my reply:
> Arada bir boyle guzel nukteler olmasa SCT hiiiiic cekilmez, Marv Albert'in
> kocaman sesi gozumun onunde, son haberlere ragmen onu bir turlu tebdili
> dekolte-kiyafet tahayyul edemiyorum...
> Selman
--------------------
offending message (translated):
This (SCTM) discussions are dragging on too much, whoever preparing this
should put CFD forward and let us vote. From me, a Marv Albert style, a
big "Yess". I am tired of erasing tons of messages from many timbers*
everyday . Whoever wants to fight, swear and insult should go wherever
they want. (here timber* is pehaps to be translated as "ignorant")
my reply (translated):
If it wasn't this type of occasional humor SCT would be hard to take. I
can hear Marv Albert's big voice.. Despite "latest news" I still can't
picture him in risque' clothes.
Selman Akbulut
--------------
Selman Akbulut
Murat Kalinyaprak
In <wk67r26...@My-Silly.nwu.edu> Yusuf Pisan wrote:
> In <3440F4...@fys.ruu.nl> Hakan Oksuzoglu writes:
>> Moderation can be done within SCT. The people who volunteer
>> to be moderators can collect and post messages by forwarding
>> them with their signatures.
>> ...
>> Hakan Oksuzoglu
> It looks like you are proposing a set of moderated articles
> within an unmoderated newsgroups. This is not a reasonable
> alternative.
Why not...? I think it's a very good idea that needs
further considering.
> I do not know of any newsgroups that currently use this method
> (forward articles that somebody likes once again with specific
> keywords). Can you point me to any examples where this method
> works?
Why can't SCT be the first one to try it...?
MK
Murat Kalinyaprak
akb...@math.msu.edu (Selman Akbulut) wrote:
>>> Murat <mur...@creighton.edu> wrote:
>>> ... such as praising a message that contains an insult, just
>>> because the person posted the message was pro SCTM, as done
>>> by Selman Akbulut.
> OK, I found both the "offending" message and my "praising"
> of it (from the given id number). I see nothing insulting
> about that message.
Selman, to make it short, in that message somebody
refers to certain people using the Turkish word
"moloz", which would be considered an insult by a
great majority of Turkish speakers. Since you say
that you don't see anyting insulting about that
message, do we have your permission to refer to
you or address you as "moloz" from now on...?
MK
Mustafa Soysal MS57
WWW sayfasIna "KarIm Italyanlara bayIlIr" diye yazan adamdan utanma mI
beklerdin?
>
>
>
> Erol Keskin
>
mur...@creighton.edu
On 13 Oct 1997, Selman Akbulut wrote:
:> > > Murat <mur...@creighton.edu> wrote:
:> > >... such as praising a message that contains an insult,
:> > > just because the person posted the message was
:> > > pro SCTM, as done by Selman Akbulut.
:> > > PS. Parrot said: "Murat will change your axioms!"
:>
:> > Selman Akbulut
:> > I don't remember doing this, if I inadvertently did that please
:> > accept my apologies, better yet remind me by posting that message
:> > if it is not long (post part of it, or give Dejanews reference if it
:> > is long) > so I can directly express my disagreement with the
:> > "insult".
:>
:>
:> OK, I found both the "offending" message and my "praising" of it (from
:> the given id number). I see nothing insulting about that message. I am
:> posting both messages and their translations below for the benefit of
:> non-Turkish speakers.
:>
:> This clearly demonstrates to me the kind of reactions one has to deal
:> with when trying to form a new newsgroup. Meekest of the meek remarks
:> could be offensive to some retrograde heads...
Weeeee shalllll seeeeeeeeee! >:->>>
:> Let me spoil Murat's game: he is hoping to hear what I just said, and
:> preparing to respond: "See I showed to you that censoring is bad -->
:> moderated newsgroup is censoring ---> so idea for SCTM is bad !". Sorry
:> Murat your plan doesn't cut it... (Murat, I think it is about time you
:> retire that parrot to a zoo).
You are at the wrong address buddy boy! >;->>> My point was to
demonstarte that Yusuf shot himself and you and by making a
reference to demagoguery while he and you were the parties using
fallacies. >;->ROTFL Hehehe! You guys are kinda suicidal these
days! >;->ROTFL
Although I regard moderation as a form of censorship, I did not
make any reference to my view when I responded to Murat KalInyaprak's
message. At issue was that Yusuf was complaining about possible
demagoguery by con-SCTM people. Later, however, he, and another
pro-SCTM person--you--used demagoguery during discussions related
to SCTM.
If you do not trust me--out of ignorance, of course >;->>>--go ask
other people whom you can trust their knowledge of informal logic and
set theory. Of course it is another question how you will determine
who knows these areas. Your best bet is to ask to the person who
most frequently writes such things as "I had studied logic and
philosophy for 20,000 hours! I read Principia! I know logic; you
know nothing! Had you known logic, you'd have known this! etc.
etc."
Haaaaaaaaaaahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaaaaaaaaaaa!
[...]
:> I also said previously: "I myself don't have problems with
:> swear-words".
If you had not had such a problem, you would not have regarded
my posting with the message ID
<Pine.HPP.3.95.971007...@bluejay.creighton.edu>
as rude.
In that posting, I wrote:
"Tam da 'Insallah Yosif adamlIkla eSeklik arasIndaki Cizginin
eSeklik tarafIna dUSmez de beni, Robo Mustafa'ya karSI O'nu
savunduGuma piSman etmez!' derken kulaklarIn uzmaya baSladI
Yosif! >:-<<<"
Translated:
"As soon as I started thinking "Hopefully, Yosif will not go
beyond the line that distinguishes a man from an ass, and thus
will not make me regret that I defended him against Robo Mustafa!"
your ears started getting longer Yosif!"
In that message, I also used a set theoretical approach to prove
that what Yusuf had done was demagoguery and mere name-calling.
Eventually, I concluded that his was either ignorance or deception
based on sheer demagoguery.
Here is my assumption: I do not think that you considered my
conclusion rude since there was a proof that Yusuf's treatment
of the subject was a fallacy, and guess who else would need to
use a fallacy other than an ignorant or a deceptor? >;->>>
Therefore, I assume that you referred to the paragraph of which
the translation was given above, in which slang was used.
:> -------------------
:> * "offending" message:
Hehehe! _Your_ own words explain everything: offending
message! >:->ROTFL
:> >> Ya bu tarti4ma luzumundan fazla uzadi. Kim hazirlayaksa hazirlasin
:> >> 4u CFD olayini SCTM icin begenen begenmeyen oyunu versin. Benden
:> >> Marv Albert vari kocaman bir "Yes". Biktim hergun bir suru molozun
:> >> yazisini silmekten hergun. Isteyen istedigi yere gitsin dala$sin
:> >> kufur ve hakaret etsin.
:> >> C. Akgun
:>
:> * my reply:
:>
:> > Arada bir boyle guzel nukteler olmasa SCT hiiiiic cekilmez, Marv
:> > Albert'in kocaman sesi gozumun onunde, son haberlere ragmen onu bir
:> > turlu tebdili dekolte-kiyafet tahayyul edemiyorum...
:> > Selman
:> --------------------
:>
:> offending message (translated):
:>
:> This (SCTM) discussions are dragging on too much, whoever preparing
:> this should put CFD forward and let us vote. From me, a Marv Albert
:> style, a big "Yess". I am tired of erasing tons of messages from many
:> timbers* everyday . Whoever wants to fight, swear and insult should go
:> wherever they want. (here timber* is pehaps to be translated as
:> "ignorant")
"Timber" is "kalas" in Turkish. "Moloz" literally means "useless
bricks, pieces of concrete, sand etc. as left after a building was
ruined." When used about people, it is not considered polite.
It is an insult.
:> my reply (translated):
:>
:> If it wasn't this type of occasional humor SCT would be hard to take. I
:> can hear Marv Albert's big voice.. Despite "latest news" I still can't
:> picture him in risque' clothes.
This is the issue: if one uses the slang "moloz," it is occasional
humor. However if somebody else uses the slang "eSek," it is rude.
If this is not double standard, could you tell me what it is?
>:->ROTFL
:> Selman Akbulut
:> --------------
Hehehe! To put your signature under demagoguery, fallacies,
deception etc. >:->>> What a shame! >:->ROTFL
Murat
Hakan Basagaoglu
Erol Keskin (er...@cmq.com) wrote:
: Hakan Basagaoglu wrote:
:
:
: Bu sctm ciler cok acaip. Uzmanin iskeletli yazisini DejaNews ten bulup yayinladiktan sonra
: Selman Akbulut denen ne idugu belirsiz cazgirdan "yazmissa cok guzel yazmis, hata bunun ne_
: resinde?" diye bir sacmalik geldi hepsi o kadar. Yusuf Pisan bu hususta uykuya daldi. Gorme_
: mezlikten geldi. Kaldi ki bu moderator adayi listesini yayinlayan oydu. Yine Yusuf Pisan ben
: bu moderatorler Turk/Turkiye karsiti propagandacilara donusecekler dedigimde, sanki bir tir_
: tilin kelebege donusmesinden bahsediyormusum gibi yari alayli bir cevap gondermisti hatirla_
: digim kadariyla.
:
: Bir insanda once utanma duygusu olmali. O yoksa Turk olmus Ermeni ya da Kurt olmus ne farkeder?
:
:
: Erol Keskin
:
Erol Bey,
son cumleniz oldukca yerinde olmus. Ancak iste hala acayiplik var, azerilerin discussion
gruplarina red oyu ile gelmek ve onlari nette susturmayi hedef almanin ne ozgur dusunce
nede tartisma adabi ile bir ilgisi vardir. Bunu destekleyen bir insanin (Macreau nun
Azeriler ile ilgili yazilari dejanews den kontrol edilebilir) yani insanlarin susmasi
icin kulis yapan bir kisinin, SCTM de ozgur ve terbiyeli bir tartisma icin moderator
adayi olmasi komik kalmiyor mu? soylemeye ne hacet bu tur sacma seylerde elbette Salman
Akbulut un bilimsel testinden gecip pozitif kredit alacaktir:-) Salman Akbulut u kendi halinde
testi ile basbasa birakmakta fayda var derim:-)))
Hakan
Hakan Basagaoglu
Murat Kalinyaprak
In <wkd8lbv...@My-Silly.nwu.edu> Yusuf Pisan wrote:
> This can easily become a silly argument if we start saying
> "I am Turk and I did/saw X, then it must be discussed on SCTM".
> SCTM's focus is intended to be issues concerning Turkey.
The same can become as silly of an argument about
what concerns Turkey also. This is why I have often
used the triplet Turks/Turkey/Turkish. Am I sensing
that "Turkey" is emphasized at the expense of the
"Turks" here...?
If this is an attempt to create a "multi-cultural"
newsgroup, based on the concept of "multi-cultural
Turkey", there is no need to use the word "Turkish"
in its name. There is certainly room in soc.culture
hyerarchy for each and every culture...
> There is no "official" language for SCTM. You can write your
> articles in English or Turkish.
The previous author had used the term "appropriate"
language. Is your usage of the word "official" to
ring a bell that Turkish is the "official" language
of Turkey and that you don't like that fact...?
I hope that your last sentence above means that the
"appropriate" languages for SCTM will be limited to
Turkish and English only. Not that I have a problem
with using other languages, but otherwise you
yourselves may end up having a problem with them...
You advocate that you will robo-filter swear words,
etc. and eliminate (or at least come close) insults
in SCTM. To be able to do that, your robot and the
moderators will have to be able to speak all of the
langues allowed...
For example, what if an article starts with "Turquoi
malakais" (or whatever)? Will your robot or moderators
catch that...? Or will the Turkish (and English?)
speakers become the only ones who will end up being
"moderated"...?
If anybody thinks that a handful of dimbugherks can
create an SCTM to open, for example, a "Kurdish poetry
corner" in it, they may as well just forget about it...
I, for example, am working on an artificial language
called "Murtish". Currently, it has about 6,800 words
(including "dimbugherk", which by the way just means
"democrat":) If the "appropriate" languages for SCTM
are not limited, I may be tempted to write in Murtish
as well. It's not particularly rich in swear-words,
but it has equivalents for most Turkish and English
words found in a typical dictionary. Of course, I
don't know which of those words the proposed SCTM
would consider swear-words, but if it comes to it, I
would be glad to give you a word list so that you can
program them into your robot...
MK
Mehmet Yagci
zafer bozkus wrote:
> >
> Sayin Yagci:
> SCTM'deki moderatorlugum uzun
> surmeyecek, sadece kurulusunda bir katkim olsun diye soyundum bu ise.
> SCTM'nin kurulmasi gerceklesir gerceklesmez zaten ayrilacagim. Ustte
> saydigim nedenlerden dolayi bu isin yogun temposuna ayak uyduracagimi
> zannetmiyorum. Bu isi orada benden daha iyi yapacak biri ile yerimin
> kolaylikla doldurulacagina inaniyorum. Bosalacak yerime Sn. Yagci'nin
> aday olmasinda bir sakinca oldugunu zannetmiyorum.
>
> Ozetle, Sn. Yagci, biz Turk'leri ilgilendiren o kadar cok onemli konular
> varken, birbirimizle ugrasmamizin sizce de dogru olmadigina inandiginiza
> inanmak istiyorum. Selman'i seversiniz yada sevmezsiniz o sizin
> kisisel sorununuz. Ama Selman'i veya herhangi birisini lutfen
> yazdiklari yazilarda belirttikleri dusunceleri acisindan
> yine dusunce bazinda elestirmeye calisiniz. Kimseye camur atmayiniz.
> Bu sizin gibi akademik calismalar yapan birine yakismiyor.
>
> SCTM'de camursuz, temiz yazilarinizi gormek dilekleri ile..
>
> Saygilarimla,
>
> Zafer Bozkus
Zafer Bey,
Bana onceden gonderdiginiz mesajlar hala elimde mevcut. Selman ile olan
problemde siz beni tanimadan bana ilgisiz mesajlar yollamistiniz. Ustelik
tartisma konusunun detaylarini bilmeden. Sonra ben de size yazmis ve durumu
izah etmistim. Sizin Selman'la olan uzun sureli arkadasliginizi da boylece
ogrenmistim. Neyse, onlar gecmiste kaldi.
Benim yerinize aday olmamda sakinca gormemenize tesekkur ederim.
Lutfetmissiniz. Ama benim boyle bir niyetim yok. Hic bir zaman bir seyleri
"moderate" etme ihtiyaci duymadim. Benim onerim yerinize Selman'i aday
gostermeniz.
Selman'i dusunsel bazda elestirme konusuna gelince, sizden ricam bir de ona
mesaj atmaniz ya da telefon etmeniz. Mesajinizda onunda dusunsel bazda
elestiri yapmasi gerektigini soylemeniz. Yasina ve kariyerine yakismayan bir
sekilde baskalari hakkinda yalan soylememesi gerektigini SCT'de ona bir
mesajla bildirebilirsiniz. 50 yasinda bir adamin MSU'da 18-20 yasindaki
undergraduate ogrenciler ile ugrasmamasini soyleyebilirsiniz.
Size camur filan attigim yok. En azindan bildiginiz gibi mezunu oldugum
okulda hocasiniz. Ama sizden bekledigim de durust bir sekilde zamaninda bana
hakaret yazilari yazan TAMTURK denen adamin yazilarina "moderator" olarak
hic tepki gostermeyen Selman'a yukarida belirttigim gibi bir davranista
bulunmaniz. Bu davranisi gostermeyebilirsiniz, cunku siz de o zaman cok
sessiz kalmistiniz. TAMTURK'u belki de begeniyordunuz. Bu adam kim, adi
soyadi ne, nereden cikti, bu list'e neden uye edildi diye sordugumda Selman
ve etrafindakiler TAMTURK'u bir guzel savunmuslardi. Simdi ise adini sanini
bilmedigimiz bir adami yanlislikla, guvenerek list'e almistik, yanlis
yapmisiz diyerek cifte standardini ortaya koyuyor. Bunlari siz de cok iyi
biliyorsunuz. Ama bir turlu cesaretle sesinizi cikartamiyorsunuz.
Sizden bekledigim sesinizi cikartmaniz. Maasiniz dusuk olabilir (uzuldum),
arastirma yapiyor olabilirsiniz (buna da sevindim). Ama bunlar sizin cesur
davranmaniza engel degil. Gosterin kendinizi.
Beklentilerim olcusunde bir yazinizi okuyabilme dilegiyle,
Mehmet Yagci
Cevdet Akbay
Diyanet Isleri Baskanligi caga ayak uydurmaya calisiyor. Cagdaslasiyor,
anlayacaginiz. Siz bakmayin Meteroloji'miz hava tahminlerini bile
Ingiltere, Hollanda'dan aldigina. Arkadas bir cagdaslasmaya camiden
baslayacagiz.
Once her yerlesim yerinde sadece bir ezana musaade edecegiz.
Ardindan "Irticaci hocalara meydan vermemek icin" camilere koca koca
ekranlar koyup Ankara'dan canli yayinla vaaz ve hutbe okutacagiz. Tabi 5
dakikada bir araya guzel hatunlarimizi cikartip makarna reklami da yapip
gelirini Cadas Derneklere dagitacagiz... daha hizli cagdaslasmak icin
canim!
Daha da ileri gidip, irticaci hocalardan kurtulmak icin her camiye birer
"robot imam" projesi baslatacagiz. Ecevit'in dedesi boyuk bir alimdiydi
ya, boyle projeleri iyi bilir. Hani Diyanet'ten sorumlu adam bakan
DSP'den.
Bir adim daha ileri gidip camileri ahira cevirdik mi, cagin ustune ciktik
demektir.
Cagdasligin elimizden cekecegi var!
cevdet...
Cevdet Akbay
NASA simdi Saturn'e insansiz arac gonderecekmis.
Daha once ay'a gittiler,
Biz yaya kaldik.
Sonra Marsa gittiler,
Biz Kars'ta kaldik.
Adamlar simdi Saturn'e gidiyorlar,
Biz ne olacagiz simdi?
Hic olmazsa bir bayragimizi Saturn'e gonderelim.
Hele Ata'mizi da bir birinci sectik mi,
Oooh, gel keyfim gel...
cevdet...
Cevdet Akbay
Efendim, biz kalkiyoruz cozum diye basimizi zora sokuyoruz. Uykumuzu
kaciriyor, yemegimizden fedakarlik etmeye kalkiyoruz.
Olur mu canim. Biz bu kadar dustuk mu yani. Bizim birimiz evelallah
dunyaya bedeldir. Yani bir Hesomuz, bir Memomuz Einstein dahil olmak uzere
dunyaya bedeldir, neuzubillah.
Kolayi vaa canim, kolayiii!
Efendim, RP mi kapanacak?
Heee...
Ee kapatsak, Ferah Partisi (FP)'yi acacaklar?
Ne olacak ya?
Kolayi vaa canim, kolayiii!
RP'ye oy veren ne kadar adam vaasa toplariz, ustune bii guzel benzin
dokeriz, veya Hitler'in yontemlerini uygulariz kurtuluruz butun
RP'lilerden.
Kolay vaa canim dedim ya..
Efendim, dinciler camilerde protesto ediyorlarmis?
Onunda kolayi vaa!
Nasil?
Bir kanun cikarirsin, camiye gidene 8 yil hapis, camiye gidip namaz kilan
16 yil hapis, camiye gidip namaz kildiktan sonra 8 yillik kesintisiz
suruncemeli egitimi protesto edene 32 yil hapis veedin mi kiclari uzerine
oturur keratalar.
Efendim camilerde hocalar Kur'an'dan ayetler okuyormus?
Onun da kolayi vaa canim.
Her camiye bir cagdas dernek uyesini imam olarak atariz. Yetmezse cagdas
kelle sayisi, eksigini robotlarla tamamlariz.
Efendim, universitelere baskin yapan basortulu kizlara ne yapmali?
Kolayi vaa canim. Cagdas rektorler ne gune kalmis.
"Ey millet, senin icin cagdaslasmanin sInIrI yoktur, istedigin gibi
cagdaslas!"
Kolayi vaa canim kolayi!
cevdet...
Murat Ataman
In article <Pine.A41.3.95.971013...@tiger2.ocs.lsu.edu>,
Cevdet Akbay <cak...@tiger2.ocs.lsu.edu> wrote:
> Benim icin Turkculuk ne kadar yanlis ise, Kurtculuk de o kadar yanlistir.
>
> Eger Turkculuk dogruysa,
>
> O halde Kurdculuk de dogru ve guzeldir.
>
> Yok, "Turkculuk guzel de Kurdculuk tukaka" diyorsaniz:
>
> Olmadi, olmaz, olamaz.
>
> Her ikisi de irkciliktir.
>
> Irkcilik pis bir hastaliktir.
>
> Bu hastaligin adi ister Turkculuk olsun,
>
> Ister Kurdculuk olsun.
>
> Her iki hastaligin ilaci Islam kardesligidir.
>
> Kardesligi kabul eden buraya.
>
> Ben bir Kurd'um, musluman bir Kurd.
>
> Musluman Turk kardesimdir, musluman Kurd kardesimdir.
>
> ZIndIk bir Kurd'e iltifat etemem,
>
> O zIndIk Turk de olsa yuzune bakmam.
>
> Insansa bir insan, benim icin irki onemli degildir.
>
> Siyah olabilir, Bilal gibi, Malcolm X gibi,
>
> Kizil olur, beyaz olur, sari olur.
>
> Hepsini bagrima basarim, hepsi kardesim.
>
> Ama canavarlasmissa bir insan, o benim kardesim de olsa
>
> yuzune bakmam.
>
Peki musluman olmayanlar ve gayri-muslim hayat tarzini savunanlar icin ne
dusunuyorsun onu da duyalim..
>
>
>
> cevdet...
Murat Kalinyaprak
akb...@math.msu.edu (Selman Akbulut) wrote:
> Mr Stone, I am sorry about overlooking the readers of
> "news.groups" that don't read Turkish....
> May be to make it up to you just for one time,
Watch out you all in "news.groups", here comes
the never ending "just for one time"s...
> I will put the translation of my previous Turkish reply to
> Mr Kalinyaprak's many previous postings supporting the ban
> on some national/religious garments, and growing beard in Turkey:
Now please pay attention. What he will post below
will demotrate that "Mr Kalinyaprak supports the
ban on some national/religious garments, and growing
beard in Turkey"...
>---------
>Mr Kalinyaprak, at every stage of history there have
>been zealots and institutions who concern themselves
>with bannig other peoples basic rights, examples:
>
>-Miniskirt patrols in Iran.
>-Jewish academicians that have been fired from
> universities in Hitler's Germany, because they wore yamukas.
>-Native american kids that have been prevented
> by mormon church, to wear their traditional dresses.
>
>To find other such examples, one has to look several
>centuries back in the history. That is why, I was sad
>to see what you have written in your articles..
>-------
Hey, wait a minute! These are not my words... How do
you think your own reply is supposed to demonstrate
my views on any given subject? Were are my words...?
It's not much fun doing it, but if have to, I will...
Here is how I had responded to the above:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Verdigin bu uc guzel ornegin "giyim/kusamdan'
> ileri ortak bir yanlarini gorebiliyormusun...?
> Goremiyorsan ben gostereyim: ucunun de nedeni
> "din"e dayaniyor...
Translation:
"Can you see a common aspect shared by these three
"good examples you have given, which is beyond
"'clothing'...? If you can't see, let me show you:
"the reason for all three of them is 'religion'"...
-------------------------------------------------------
Do I need to add that you had not responded to my
above response...? Even after I repeated it in a
subsequent article, you still haven't responded...
I wish I didn't have to sink to this level along
with you in front of "news.groups". But it may help
them see what kind of people are the most avid
proponents of SCTM. They may need to see what kind
of people, who's views don't even go skin-deep (or
should I have said "clothing-deep"?), judge others
to be "intolerant" of "national/religious garments,
growing beard, etc." and based on what kind of
arguments, in order to justify wanting a new group
of a "higher level"...
> Selman Akbulut
MK
Selman Akbulut
> Hakan Basagaoglu:
> Erol Bey, son cumleniz oldukca yerinde olmus. Ancak iste hala
> acayiplik var, azerilerin discussion gruplarina red oyu ile
> gelmek ve onlari nette susturmayi hedef almanin ne ozgur dusunce
> nede tartisma adabi ile bir ilgisi vardir. Bunu destekleyen bir
> insanin (Macreau nun Azeriler ile ilgili yazilari dejanews den
> kontrol edilebilir) yani insanlarin susmasi icin kulis yapan bir
> kisinin, SCTM de ozgur ve terbiyeli bir tartisma icin moderator
> adayi olmasi komik kalmiyor mu? soylemeye ne hacet bu tur sacma
> seylerde elbette Salman Akbulut un bilimsel testinden gecip pozitif
> kredit alacaktir:-) Salman Akbulut u kendi halinde testi ile
> basbasa birakmakta > fayda var derim:-)))
Cok ciddi bir suclama yaptiniz, yani Uzman'nin "Macreau" adiyla Turkiye
du$manligi yapitigini yazdiniz. Guzel o zaman ispat edin, hepimiz bu
ki$iyi yeterli ara$tirmadan destekledigimiz icin sizden ozur dileyelim ve
Uzman'in adayliktan cekilmesini destekleyelim. Isterseniz sayin Uzman'a
kendisi hakkinda bilgi vermesini rica edelim, belki acikliga kavu$ur...
Fakat eger bu suclamaniz asilsiz cikarsa, ne kadar buyuk bir iftira
"slander" yapmi$ olabileceginizin farkinda misiniz? O zaman Uzman dava
acip sizi altindan kalkamayacaginiz tazminat cezasina carptirtabilir
(ayrica hayat boyu sucsuz bir insana haksiz yere milyonlarca ki$i onunde
iftira etmi$ biri olarak taninmak ta caba), bu riskleri goze alabilecek
kadar kendinizden emin misiniz?...
Ha "ben neden kendisini sadece SCT yazilarindan tanimama ragmen, Uzman'in
bazi gordugum yazilarini tebrik ettim?", cevap gayet basit: Cunku o
yazilari guzel yazmi$ti.... Sizde guzel akilli yazilar yazin sizide tebrik
edeyim...
Selman Akbulut
--------------
Murat Kalinyaprak
In <wk4t6m6...@My-Silly.nwu.edu> Yusuf Pisan wrote:
> In <61padr$rf9$1...@news.chatlink.com> Murat Kalinyaprak writes:
> Quoting an old article of mine where the idea of SCTM was
> beginning to form and then saying "I just can't help
> wondering if there is something more underneath this" is
> making you look paranoid.
In that specific comment, I was specificly referring
to "eliminating swear-words" by itslef being a weak
reason for wanting to create a whole new newsgroup.
But there are other reasons (with news ones coming
up every day) that make me more and more suspicious.
And I'm glad you used the word "paranoid", because
as was just wondering whether I should ask if you
are paranoid about something yourself...
You haven't answered my question about why each and
every one of your past articles were erased from
every usenet archive. Since you haven't answered, I
am concluding that you have erased them yourself for
a reason you don't want to explain publicly. I have
respect for your not wanting to explain it, but just
that and nothing more...
I can't take the creation of a moderated newsgroup
lightly and this is significant for me. You are the
mentor and one of the moderators proposed. And you
have effectively eliminated any possibility for us
to evaluate/discuss/demonstrate your past behaviour
and stance on certain subjects, based on usenet
archives. How are we supposed to decide whether we
should support or oppose you now? Ask you about
your views on some matters and just take your word
for it...?
If this can be grounds for your resignation as a
moderator and/or withdrawal of your proposal as a
mentor, I would like to know about it, for I may
want to pursue this...
> Please read the RFD for the rationale behind SCTM and try
> to respond to the RFD in question rather than old articles
> you find in DejaNews.
You are the mentor and also one of the moderators.
Are you suggesting that we should just not worry
about you or the other moderators...
One of the moderators has just openly annouced that
he will resign just as soon as the group is created...
And there has been a few comments, insterestingly from
the supporters of SCTM, about the possibility of
Armenian voters opposing him as a moderator... He also
himself wrote an article asking that his candidacy
should not worry the Armenian readers. (Why should it,
if he will resign the next day?) All this, while
Armenians (and other nationalities/ethnicities who
would be expected to have an interest in the issue)
have been completely silent...
At the same time, we have been told that there is a
backup moderator already, but we don't know who he/she
is. Why doesn't the moderator who pre-announced his
resignation go ahead and resign already, so that we
will know who will be the "real" moderators...?
Is all this game playing allowed by the rules of
newsgroup creation...?
Forget the rationale behind SCTM, I'm wondering if
I'm starting to smell a stink behind SCTM...
> * Moderators will not decide if an article is appropriate
> for the thread or whether it has the right "Subject" line.
> Moderators will reject articles if they are not related to
> Turkey in any way or if the article is insulting/threatening
> to groups or individuals. Moderators will not reject articles
> because they do not think it has the proper "Subject:" line.
I asked very specific questions and don't need politian's
answers. If this is the case, you may see me post a lot
about the benefits of dry beans, in response to any
article regardless of the "subject" line. And don't worry,
I'll somehow make sure that it is related to Turkey...
> * Informational postings, news items from all sources will
> be welcome at SCTM. Moderators will reject articles if they
> are not related to Turkey in any way or if the article is
> insulting/threatening to groups or individuals. Moderators
> will not reject articles because it comes from a source they
> do not like.
I think you are revealing too much of whom do you want
SCTM to be created for. This is not about what moderators
will like or won't like, but about what the readers will
or won't like...
Readers often have expressed in the past that they don't
want the entire contents of web sites of political activist,
propagandist organizations, posted to SCT verbatim. Some of
us were lenient enough to suggest that they should just post
a few lines of announcements, letting readers know that they
may want to visit such an such web site... Have you never
run across such complaints from the readers? Or is it that
you guys believe whatever doesn't bother "the moderators"
shoul not bother anybody else...?
Just in case..., I hope to god that there will be enough of
us to prevent a newsgroup being created for the sake of
the moderators...
>> The RFD was posted in SCT on or before October 8th, merely 2
>> weeks after this e-mail. I would be very curious to know how
>> many people ever subcribed to the above mentioned temporary
>> list, did a discussion take place and were there at least
>> 100-200 people supporting the creation of SCTM...? I hope
>> Yusuf Pisan would not mind answering these questions.
> Many people have contacted me by email to ask how they can vote.
> I have informed them that the voting has not begun and they need
> to read news.groups and soc.culture.turkish in the meantime.
If you didn't feel like aswering how many people subscribed
to the mailing list, you could have substituted the number
of people who sent such inquiries/e-mails...
> The number of people I have discussed and asked for help in
> creating the RFD is probably less than 100.
I wasn't asking about how many people you have asked support
from. I was asking how many did support the idea. But your
admitting to "probably less than 100" is enough for me to go
on (assuming that "people I have discussed and asked for help"
should mean to us "people who supported the idea"...)
Now, this idea of testing the waters in order to determine
whether the idea is worth pursuing was your own idea. And
your judgement that you should have a mimimum of 100-200
people interested was a logical one, because to cerate a
group you need at least 100 votes, and you already knew
that just based on rumors many people in SCT expressed
their "categorical" opposition to such an attempt. Thus,
you knew you would never get 100-yes votes vs. 0-no votes,
and saying 100-200 would be an absolute logical minimum.
But, you ended up getting support from "probably less than
100" people by your own words. My question then is, why
have you not respected your own rule/goal/measure of minimal
interest and still went ahead with proposing SCTM...? What
the reason for the extreme ambition to create a moderated
newsgroup...?
How can we and why should we trust somebody as a mentor
and moderator, when we know that this person said "I will
stop if I don't get 100-200 people interested" but "did
not stop there"...!? How can we know where will you ever
stop..!?
MK
Murat Kalinyaprak
In <wk67r3t...@My-Silly.nwu.edu> Yusuf Pisan wrote:
> Neither Murat Kalinyaprak nor Selman Akbulut is one of the
> moderators. We do not need to discuss their viewpoints on
> issues. We should concentrate on the rules and regulations
> of SCTM.
So, basically you are suggesting that we should forget
about discussing any moderator related issues and just
concentrate on the rules and regulations...?
Well, now that we can't find any trace of anything you
have previously posted, anywhere on the Usenet, what
else choice do we have anyway...?
And how are we supposed to concentrate on the rules and
regulations, if we can't even find the original RFD,
anywhere on the Usenet either...?
It's no longer on my server. I can't find it in Alta
Vista, DejaNews, etc. either.
If the original posting of the RFD was cancelled by
Yusuf Pisan, I request that we respect his wish and
consider his proposal for SCTM cancelled/withdrawn by
the mentor himself.
If such an act, along with others I mentioned in my
other rather lengthy article, constitute breaking the
rules of newsgroup creation, please inform me so that
I can make a formal request for the proper enforcement
of the applicable measures. (If anyone shares similar
concerns about the proposed SCTM, please read my other
article I posted just before this one also.)
Let's put an end to this silly game already and not
waste any more of anybody's time...
MK
Selman Akbulut
> Murat Kalinyaprak:
> ..And there has been a few comments, insterestingly
> Armenian voters opposing him as a moderator... He also
> himself wrote an article asking that his candidacy
> should not worry the Armenian readers. (Why should it,
> if he will resign the next day?) All this, while
> Armenians (and other nationalities/ethnicities who
> would be expected to have an interest in the issue)
> have been completely silent...
What a cheap shot... Mr Kalinyaprak, it is not becoming of you trying to
whip up Ermenian opposition to SCTM while trying to slander a moderator. I
happened to know that the moderator you are referring to wrote articles to
promote peace and friendship between Turks and Ermenians... May be you are
angry, because you were not asked to be a moderator. I personally think
your stance on civil rights in Turkey, as well as your hostile
ultra-nationalistic positions are too intolerant virtues for a moderator.
Maybe you and like-minded Ermenian zealots who don't like to see civil
discussions between different nationalities would object SCTM, why
supported it while you can use SCT to provoke and use as your battle
ground?...
Selman Akbulut
---------------
Selman Akbulut
> >Selman:
> >Mr Kalinyaprak, at every stage of history there have
> >been zealots and institutions who concern themselves
> >with bannig other peoples basic rights, examples:
> >
> >-Miniskirt patrols in Iran.
> >-Jewish academicians that have been fired from
> > universities in Hitler's Germany, because they wore yamukas.
> >-Native american kids that have been prevented
> > by mormon church, to wear their traditional dresses.
> >
> >To find other such examples, one has to look several
> >centuries back in the history. That is why, I was sad
> >to see what you have written in your articles..
> Murat Kalinyaprak:
> Hey, wait a minute! These are not my words... How do
> you think your own reply is supposed to demonstrate
> my views on any given subject? Were are my words...?
No, those are my words responding to your archaic views on restricting
basic rights in Turkey (freedom to wear what you want..etc). Our messages
are in Dejanews archives...I can see that you feel irritated to see
yourself in the company of these indistinguished groups which I cited
above; goood may be this will help you to change your stance...
Selman
------
Erol Keskin
Murat Kalinyaprak wrote:
Kalinyaprak's post has been the best so far to evaluate the
situation on SCTM.
And here is the stink (at least to my view): As you have all
noticed Armenians, Greeks stopped their land claims and other
stupidity on SCT for a while now. Since some neighborhood put the
Independent Kurdish State on Turkish soil on a delay for 30
years, I say this neigborhood is trying to establish a better
ground for their claims. (As to prepare young Turkish minds
for the new idea/ideas, what can be as effective as a moderated
newsgroup?)
If I am correct in what I think, SCTM will be crying wall for some
certain circles under the name of "kufursuz newsgroup" :-)
The thing I do not understand, If we have so many sold out bastards,
how come the Republic of Turkey still is standing so proud and
strong?
I hope someone would explain it to me!!!
Erol Keskin
Aahz
In article <Pine.HPP.3.95.971012...@bluejay.creighton.edu>,
<mur...@creighton.edu> wrote:
>
>You're missing the language issue here. What is the point of
>posting a message in Turkish to comp.os.* newsgroups if you do
>not know English? If there is no person who knows your language
>in that newsgroup, you will end up nowhere. You can, on the
>other hand, find someone who can understand and respond in
>Turkish when you write to SCT.
To expand Stella's point a bit, Usenet (e.g. comp.*, rec.*, soc.*) is
not the only netnews hierarchy. For example, regional hierarchies such
as de.*, fr.*, and jp.* have languages other than English as their
primary language (Deutsch/German, French, and Japanese, respectively).
There's no reason why y'all can't create a brand new hierarchy -- with
its own rules, not subject to control by tale.
My personal recommendation would be to start by creating turk.general.
If computers are a big concern to Turkish-speaking people, you could
also create turk.computers (or even turk.{turkish-word-for-computer}).
I would, however, recommend that you leave turk.general with the English
word, to keep some correspondence between the different hierarchies.
--
--- Aahz (@netcom.com)
Hugs and backrubs -- I break Rule 6 <*> http://www.bayarea.net/~aahz
Androgynous poly kinky vanilla queer het
The best way to get information on Usenet is not to ask a question,
but to post the wrong information.
Murat Ataman
In article <34415BA3...@hooked.net>,
bmai...@hooked.deleeetemeee.net wrote:
> mur...@creighton.edu wrote:
> >
> > On 12 Oct 1997, Chris Stone wrote:
> >
> > :> In article <murat-12109...@lax-ca21-10.ix.netcom.com>,
> > :> Murat Ataman <mu...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
> > :>
> > :> >Well, I am a Turk and this relates to me, and who is to say this
> > :> >doesn't relate to others as well. If it doesn't, then please tell me
> > :> >how the discussion topic about Linux Users Group relate to Turkey and
> > :> >Turkish culture??? Turkish people may well be interested about the
> > :> >comparisons and information on Mac vs. Windows systems, and who is to
> > :> >say these don't relate to Turks?
> > :>
> > :> Me, I suppose. :) Mac vs. Windows flamewars belong on the appropriate
> > :> comp.os.* newsgroup. Merely because Turks use these operating systems
> > :> does not mean they are on-topic on s.c.turkish. If we used *that*
> > :> rationale, we would get Mac vs. PC flamewars in every soc.culture.*
> > :> group in existence.
> > :>
> > :> >Should Turks only be interested in Turkish history and ethnic issues?
> > :>
> > :> Obviously not.
> >
> > You're missing the language issue here. What is the point of
> > posting a message in Turkish to comp.os.* newsgroups if you do
> > not know English? If there is no person who knows your language
> > in that newsgroup, you will end up nowhere. You can, on the
> > other hand, find someone who can understand and respond in
> > Turkish when you write to SCT...
> >
> > ...You may argue that everybody should know English for a bunch of
> > reasons to any of which I would not object at all due to the mere
> > fact that I, myself, am a polyglot. However, it takes time to
> > learn a language. :-) And yet one may have an urgent and
> > legitimate point to make, or question to ask in his/her own
> > language. It may not be so legitimate--yet rude--to refer him/her
> > to another newsgroup in which English "rules" if the person does
> > not know English...
>
> Somebody 'splain me, please. Isn't this proposal to create a "twin"
> newsgroup and not to change the status of the existing one? So SCT
> and SCTM would co-exist and the posters who are monolingual (or
> English isn't one of their languages) would still have a place to
> post, no?
Yes but the original proposal of opening a moderated version of SCT was to
protect users from vulgar posting which is common in unmoderated
newsgroups. What if I really don't want to read vulgar messages and have a
clean discussion in SCTM about mac vs. windows in the only language I
speak, which is Turkish?
Since the moderator says this issue is not related to the newsgroup in his
mind, I can't post there, but then I have to put up with vulgar language
and personal attacks of some psychos, from which the moderated newsgroup
(SCTM) was originally intented to protect me from? What's fair about that?
>
> Brian Mailman
Cevdet Akbay
Benim icin Turkculuk ne kadar yanlis ise, Kurtculuk de o kadar yanlistir.
Eger Turkculuk dogruysa,
O halde Kurdculuk de dogru ve guzeldir.
Yok, "Turkculuk guzel de Kurdculuk tukaka" diyorsaniz:
Olmadi, olmaz, olamaz.
Her ikisi de irkciliktir.
Irkcilik pis bir hastaliktir.
Bu hastaligin adi ister Turkculuk olsun,
Ister Kurdculuk olsun.
Her iki hastaligin ilaci Islam kardesligidir.
Kardesligi kabul eden buraya.
Ben bir Kurd'um, musluman bir Kurd.
Musluman Turk kardesimdir, musluman Kurd kardesimdir.
ZIndIk bir Kurd'e iltifat etemem,
O zIndIk Turk de olsa yuzune bakmam.
Insansa bir insan, benim icin irki onemli degildir.
Siyah olabilir, Bilal gibi, Malcolm X gibi,
Kizil olur, beyaz olur, sari olur.
Hepsini bagrima basarim, hepsi kardesim.
Ama canavarlasmissa bir insan, o benim kardesim de olsa
yuzune bakmam.
cevdet...
Hakan Oksuzoglu
Yusuf Pisan wrote:
>
> > Moderation can be done within SCT. The people who volunteer to be
> > moderators can collect and post messages by forwarding them with their
> > signatures.
> > ...
> > Hakan Oksuzoglu
>
> It looks like you are proposing a set of moderated articles within an
> unmoderated newsgroups. This is not a reasonable alternative.
>
> (forward articles that somebody likes once again with specific
> keywords). Can you point me to any examples where this method works?
>
What I meant was not reposting articles that are allready posted ( That
could be considered too. ) I suggested that the self-appointed
moderators
(or reviewers) will receive articles by e-mail from people who trust
them and
forward the articles to SCT, just like you post the news about Turkey.
(Sometimes I only read the news you post and delete the rest).
The people who send their articles to "respected moderators" will get
more
exposure (analogous to publishing in a respected magazine).
I know that this is not a tested method of moderation. But being not
tested
is not a sufficient reason to dissmis it outright.
I am also tired of seeing so many articles full of insult and hatred.
But this
cannot alone justify to create a redundant news group. I am against SCTM
for the similar reasons I am against TRT: Small group of people deciding
what is good , what is bad for a large group of people and doing that
with
public money. Not that I have any problems with the currently proposed
moderators. But knowing that only moderators can decide who will be the
next
moderator makes me wonder about the future of the SCTM. We should not
blame people for being paranoid where there are so many forgeries, false
identities and hidden agendas.
--
Hakan Oksuzoglu
Lynn Diana Gazis
Murat Kalinyaprak (mu...@cyberport.net) wrote:
[snipped]
: For example, what if an article starts with "Turquoi
: malakais" (or whatever)? Will your robot or moderators
: catch that...? Or will the Turkish (and English?)
: speakers become the only ones who will end up being
: "moderated"...?
If you want to trigger on insults in Greek, I'm perfectly willing to help
the moderators assemble a list of Greek insults to trigger on. For that
matter, the moderators would be within their rights to reject any
language which they can't read (since they then can't judge whether a
post is on topic), so, if none of the moderators reads Greek, I think
they would be within their rights to trigger on common Greek words which
don't appear in English or Turkish, and request that those messages be
submitted in a different language. But if they want Greek trigger words,
I'm willing to help.
Lynn Gazis-Sax (who is glad to see Zafer Bozkus is back, as he was always
a level-headed poster)
RACER
Cunku memlekette hala helal sut emmis vatan evlatlari var!
Aahz
In article <wk201po...@nwu.edu>, Yusuf Pisan <y-p...@nwu.edu> wrote:
>aa...@netcom.com (Aahz) writes:
>>
>> To expand Stella's point a bit, Usenet (e.g. comp.*, rec.*, soc.*) is
>> not the only netnews hierarchy. For example, regional hierarchies such
>> as de.*, fr.*, and jp.* have languages other than English as their
>> primary language (Deutsch/German, French, and Japanese, respectively).
>> There's no reason why y'all can't create a brand new hierarchy -- with
>> its own rules, not subject to control by tale.
>
>probably be a couple of years before this hierarchy is established and
>it's not known if tr.* hierarchy will be distributed outside of
>Turkey.
1) Despite the precedent set by de.* et al, I would recommend against
tr.* as the name for a Turkey/Turkish language hierarchy. turk.* or
turkey.* would be better.
2) There is no reason why the push for turk.* should come from within
Turkey if the primary population that intends to use it is outside
Turkey.
R. Craig Harman
Selman Akbulut wrote:
>
> *translation:
> ---------
> Mr Kalinyaprak, at every stage of history there have
> been zealots and institutions who concern themselves
>
> -Miniskirt patrols in Iran.
> -Jewish academicians that have been fired from
> universities in Hitler's Germany, because they wore yamukas.
> -Native american kids that have been prevented
> by mormon church, to wear their traditional dresses.
Rubbish!
CALL FOR REFERENCES!
...Craig, who gets really tired of the nonsense shoved around about
the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints...
--
Robert Craig Harman En France, appelez 01 34 80 04 83 pour
BYU Chemical Engineering recevoir un Livre de Mormon gratuit...
Master's Candidate
LDS France Paris Mission http://www.et.byu.edu/~harmanc/paris/
Jim Riley
In article <61rav6$gn7$1...@news.chatlink.com> Murat Kalinyaprak wrote:
>> I do not know of any newsgroups that currently use this method
>> (forward articles that somebody likes once again with specific
>> keywords). Can you point me to any examples where this method
>> works?
>
>Why can't SCT be the first one to try it...?
It doesn't have to be one or the other. Why don't you try your
approach in SCT? Maybe you can use NoCeM.
--
Jim Riley
Jim Riley
In article <wkd8lbv...@My-Silly.nwu.edu> Yusuf Pisan wrote:
>There is no "official" language for SCTM. You can write your articles
>in English or Turkish. Just because something is written in English
>does not make it "not relevant" to Turkey and just because something
>is written in Turkish does not automatically make it relevant to
>issues about Turkey.
You can't approve what you can't read. So in that sense, there are
official languages for the newsgroup.
Will postings in Arabic or Kurdish be acceptable? Note this is a
different question than whether the moderators can read either.
--
Jim Riley
RACER
Selman Akbulut wrote:
>
> > Selman Akbulut wrote:
> > >
> > > *translation:
> > > ---------
> > > Mr Kalinyaprak, at every stage of history there have
> > > been zealots and institutions who concern themselves
> > > with banning other peoples basic rights, examples:
> > >
> > > -Miniskirt patrols in Iran.
> > > -Jewish academicians that have been fired from
> > > universities in Hitler's Germany, because they wore yamukas.
> > > -Native american kids that have been prevented
> > > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> > > by mormon church, to wear their traditional dresses.
> > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> >
> > Rubbish!
> >
> > CALL FOR REFERENCES!
> >
> > ...Craig, who gets really tired of the nonsense shoved around about
> > the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints...
>
> "Western intolerance to Native American cultures/traditions"... The reason
> why I said that is the stories I personally heard from Navaho Elders about
> Churches placing Indian children to boarding schools in order to
> "westernize" and "civilize" them, appearently not all that voluntary (this
> source for me is no less credible than a western history book). I also
> heard like-stories from Ute's, and saw old pictures on museum walls (in
> the south west) of Indian children in Mormon boarding schools).
>
> Selman
> ------
Hayda bizim Selman Hoca mormon'a carpti. Eger SaltLake city civarinda
bir yerde hoca olsaydi muazzallah mantik pro"fo"so"rlugunden odaciliga
yatay gecis yaptirirlardi. Aman hocam dikkat. :-)))
RACER
Mustafa Soysal MS57 wrote:
>
> In article <3442170D...@cmq.com>, Erol Keskin <er...@cmq.com> wrote:
> >Murat Kalinyaprak wrote:
> ..
> > I hope someone would explain it to me!!!
>
> in Italy. Therefore, this is the Tukrish government involved in censoring
> usenet.
Don't bullshit Recai.
Erol Bey Mustafa beyin Bakirkoy'deki yeri temin edildi mi efem?
>
> >
> >
> > Erol Keskin
> >
> >
> >
RACER
Selman Akbulut wrote:
>
> > Murat Kalinyaprak:
> >
> > And there has been a few comments, insterestingly
> > from the supporters of SCTM, about the possibility of
> > while Armenians (and other nationalities/ethnicities who
> > would be expected to have an interest in the issue)
> > have been completely silent...
> > But I surely won't be surprised if SCTM passes
> > with the blessing and support of the Armenians.
> > ...
> > Has it ever occured to you that I might have
> > witheld from wanting to be a moderator out of my
> > own good-will, because of the possibility that I
> > may have attracted more opposition than support
> > for the proposed SCTM...?
>
> No go sorry... Your expected Turkish/Armenian war has not
> taken place...
Simdi tepemi attirdin Hoca bozuntusu. Kafayi "tepkisellik" gibi
sacmaliklar ile yiyecegine otur da biraz yakin Turk tarihi oku.
Ermeni'ler ile savas olmamis. Ulan zipticikti herif yoksa sen Ermeni
falan misin? Ermeniler ile hem Dogu'da hem de Guneydoguda savas
yapildi. Dogudakiler Rus uniformasi, guneydogudakiler ise Fransiz
uniformasi giyiyorlardi. Seni serseri revizyonist salak seni. Sizler
mi kuracaksiniz ulan SCTM'yi. Ulan size "Turkish" kelimesini emanet
eden nagmert olsun.
>keep howling to the wind. Maybe it would
> do good for you to find a hobby other than "enforcer of SCT"..
> Why have a competition from SCTM, while provoking in SCT as your
> merry battle ground?...
>
> Selman
> -------
Murat Kalinyaprak
akb...@math.msu.edu (Selman Akbulut) wrote:
>>> Selman:
>>>-Miniskirt patrols in Iran.
>>>-Jewish academicians that have been fired from
>>> universities in Hitler's Germany, because they wore yamukas.
>>>-Native american kids that have been prevented
>>> by mormon church, to wear their traditional dresses.
>> Murat Kalinyaprak:
>> Hey, wait a minute! These are not my words... How do
>> you think your own reply is supposed to demonstrate
>> my views on any given subject? Were are my words...?
> No, those are my words responding to your archaic views on
> restricting basic rights in Turkey (freedom to wear what
> you want..etc). Our messages are in Dejanews archives...
I have seen a lot on this Usenet, but not many people
who quote themselves to demonstrate somebody else's
views... You are a rare one...
> I can see that you feel irritated
How do you know that I am irritated? Or is that what,
you are trying to do? If you are trying to irritate
me, please stop, because I don't have any prep-H in
my medicine cabinet...
> to see yourself in the company of these indistinguished
> groups which I cited above;
I consider myself very lucky that I don't see myself
or anything else through your eyes...
> goood may be this will help you to change your stance...
If you can't even comprehend my stance to begin with,
how would you know if I changed it...?
MK
PS: Do you see yet, that all three examples you have
been quoting from yourself, have "religion" in common,
(which cuts deeper than "clothing")...?
Murat Kalinyaprak
akb...@math.msu.edu (Selman Akbulut) wrote:
>> Murat Kalinyaprak:
>> ..And there has been a few comments, insterestingly
>> from the supporters of SCTM, about the possibility of
>> Armenian voters opposing him as a moderator... He also
>> himself wrote an article asking that his candidacy
>> should not worry the Armenian readers. (Why should it,
>> if he will resign the next day?) All this, while
>> Armenians (and other nationalities/ethnicities who
>> would be expected to have an interest in the issue)
>> have been completely silent...
> What a cheap shot... Mr Kalinyaprak, it is not becoming of
> you trying to whip up Ermenian opposition to SCTM while
Are you kidding me...? I am of the opinion that
with this charter and moderators, I don't think
I could accomplish such a thing, even if I tried.
But I surely won't be surprised if SCTM passes
with the blessing and support of the Armenians.
> trying to slander a moderator.
What slander...? I hope you yourself don't fall
into a position of accusing me without basis...
> I happened to know that the moderator you are referring to
> wrote articles to promote peace and friendship between Turks
> and Ermenians...
Well gee, and would you care to go one step further
to explain how did you possibly come to guess/know
which moderator I was referring to...? :)
> May be you are angry, because you were not asked to be a
> moderator.
Has it ever occured to you that I might have
witheld from wanting to be a moderator out of my
own good-will, because of the possibility that I
may have attracted more opposition than support
for the proposed SCTM...?
Just my mentioning later that I might consider
it, was enough to send you screaming, wasn't it?
> I personally think your stance on civil rights in Turkey,
> as well as your hostile ultra-nationalistic positions are
> too intolerant virtues for a moderator.
Hold your horses until if and when I may declare
my candidacy...
> Maybe you and like-minded Ermenian zealots who don't like
> to see civil discussions between different nationalities
> would object SCTM,
You guys think we are really that stupid, don't
you...? Do you think you can convince me that
there would be that many "Armenian zealots" (your
words) who won't like "civil discussions between
different nationalities"...?
No sir, you can't...! I believe that, like everybody
else, most Armenians would not object to, but indeed
prefer having "civil discussions between different
nationalities". Any problem with their mass-opposition
would only arise if Armenian related topics were tried
to be excluded from the proposed SCTM, which is not
the case...
BTW: Somebody may want such restrictions of topics
without necessarily being anti-anything...
If you guys are trying to paint stripes on a donkey
to sell it to us as a zebra, you should know that
there may be enough of us who won't buy it...
> why supported it while you can use SCT to provoke and
> use as your battle ground?...
Me? Provoke them and use SCT as a battle ground...?
Lately, you have been mentioning almost daily, how
you benefit/benefited from DejaNews archives. But it
seems that you just haven't benefited enough yet. If
you had read my past viws on this particular issue,
you wouldn't have made such a comment...
MK
bill mesrobian
Well Murat,
Once again you put your foot in it.
mu...@cyberport.net (Murat Kalinyaprak) wrote:
>In <wk4t6m6...@My-Silly.nwu.edu> Yusuf Pisan wrote:
>
>> In <61padr$rf9$1...@news.chatlink.com> Murat Kalinyaprak writes:
>
>
>And I'm glad you used the word "paranoid", because
>as was just wondering whether I should ask if you
>are paranoid about something yourself...
This is classic Murat. It has nothing to do with your point.
>
>You haven't answered my question about why each and
>every one of your past articles were erased from
>every usenet archive.
Strange you should mention this. I've noticed that a lot of
posts are either erased from SCT or "rearranged". I've noticed
this happening with others too. It doesn't seem to be related
to ethnicity. It seems to have more to do with the subject.
Odd that I haven't seen this with other groups.
Since you haven't answered, I
>am concluding that you have erased them yourself for
>a reason you don't want to explain publicly. I have
>respect for your not wanting to explain it, but just
>that and nothing more...
A startling admission. I'm stunned.
>
>I can't take the creation of a moderated newsgroup
>lightly and this is significant for me.
What is your idea of a moderated newsgroup? Where have you
postulated your notions?
You are the
>mentor and one of the moderators proposed. And you
>have effectively eliminated any possibility for us
>to evaluate/discuss/demonstrate your past behaviour
>and stance on certain subjects, based on usenet
>archives. How are we supposed to decide whether we
>should support or oppose you now? Ask you about
>your views on some matters and just take your word
>for it...?
If you want guarantees, let the participants determine whether
or not to keep a moderator. If the moderator does the two
primary functions of the job: maintain a civil forum and stick
to the subject, you shouldn't have a problem. Unless, of course,
you decide to let the moderators have full say in what constitutes
a legitimate thread. Then you get what you deserve.
>
>If this can be grounds for your resignation as a
>moderator and/or withdrawal of your proposal as a
>mentor, I would like to know about it, for I may
>want to pursue this...
Are you volunteering to be a moderator? What an unlikely
notion!
>
>One of the moderators has just openly annouced that
How can you have a moderator for a group that doesn't exist?
>he will resign just as soon as the group is created...
>And there has been a few comments, insterestingly from
>the supporters of SCTM, about the possibility of
>Armenian voters opposing him as a moderator... He also
>himself wrote an article asking that his candidacy
>should not worry the Armenian readers. (Why should it,
>if he will resign the next day?) All this, while
>Armenians (and other nationalities/ethnicities who
>would be expected to have an interest in the issue)
>have been completely silent...
Most Armenians I know are simply not concerned any more.
SCT is a hazardous waste dump and any moderated SCT would
probably consist of a group of racists trying to make themselves
feel good. As long as the virus doesn't escape, we have
nothing to worry about. Those few Turks I've met who are open,
honest and willing to engage in rational debate won't get far
with an SCTM. I'd personally hate to see it. They would be
embarassed for you.
>
>At the same time, we have been told that there is a
>backup moderator already, but we don't know who he/she
>is. Why doesn't the moderator who pre-announced his
>resignation go ahead and resign already, so that we
>will know who will be the "real" moderators...?
>
>
>I think you are revealing too much of whom do you want
>SCTM to be created for. This is not about what moderators
>will like or won't like, but about what the readers will
>or won't like...
And who speaks for the readers? Will you just sit back and
let the moderators determine what's a fair topic for discussion?
>
>But, you ended up getting support from "probably less than
>100" people by your own words. My question then is, why
>have you not respected your own rule/goal/measure of minimal
>interest and still went ahead with proposing SCTM...? What
>the reason for the extreme ambition to create a moderated
>newsgroup...?
Isn't the issue more the quality of the posts rather than the
numbers of participants?
Nice Try Murat,
Bill
Selman Akbulut
> Murat Kalinyaprak:
>
> And there has been a few comments, insterestingly
> from the supporters of SCTM, about the possibility of
> would be expected to have an interest in the issue)
> have been completely silent...
> But I surely won't be surprised if SCTM passes
> with the blessing and support of the Armenians.
> Has it ever occured to you that I might have
> witheld from wanting to be a moderator out of my
> own good-will, because of the possibility that I
> may have attracted more opposition than support
> for the proposed SCTM...?
No go sorry... Your expected Turkish/Armenian war has not
taken place... keep howling to the wind. Maybe it would
Selman Akbulut
> Selman Akbulut wrote:
> >
> > *translation:
> > ---------
> > Mr Kalinyaprak, at every stage of history there have
> > been zealots and institutions who concern themselves
> > with banning other peoples basic rights, examples:
> >
> > -Miniskirt patrols in Iran.
> > -Jewish academicians that have been fired from
> > universities in Hitler's Germany, because they wore yamukas.
> > -Native american kids that have been prevented
> > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> > by mormon church, to wear their traditional dresses.
Murat Kalinyaprak
In <wkafgdo...@nwu.edu> Yusuf Pisan wrote:
>mu...@cyberport.net (Murat Kalinyaprak) writes:
>> In that specific comment, I was specificly referring
>> to "eliminating swear-words" by itslef being a weak
>> reason for wanting to create a whole new newsgroup.
>> But there are other reasons (with news ones coming
>> up every day) that make me more and more suspicious.
> Nope. The RFD has not been significantly modified after
> it has appeared. You might have started interpreting it
> differently.
I think you misunderstood his words. The RDF seems to be less
of a concern for him right now, than the mentor/moderators.
What he was referring to, were the new "reasons for him to be
suspicious" coming up one after another.
For example, any and all traces of your past existance on
Usenet having been erased from all archives that he checked...
For example, one of the moderator's publicly expressing that
he will resign after the group is created...
You may be wondering, why all of a sudden I started referring
to myself as him... Well, just read on and you will find out...
>> You are the mentor and one of the moderators proposed. And
>> you have effectively eliminated any possibility for us
>> to evaluate/discuss/demonstrate your past behaviour
>> and stance on certain subjects, based on usenet
>> archives. How are we supposed to decide whether we
>> should support or oppose you now? Ask you about
>> your views on some matters and just take your word
>> for it...?
> Well, in theory you do not know if I am the same person who
> used the email address 'y-p...@nwu.edu' yesterday as I am today.
Well... Dear Yusuf Pisan? (or whomever you think you are at this
particular date and time), if I were the same Murat Kalinyaprak
as yesterday, I would have said that Yusuf Pisan? is very good at
evading by being sly. But I won't say that, because I can relate
to your story exactly...
You see, just like the brand new Yusuf Pisan? who has no trace
of past existance on usenet, this is a brand new Murat Kalinyaprak
responding to you. I have just joined Usenet and I am trying to
catch up on this SCTM issue...
When I started reading the newsgroups, I was surprised (perhaps
just like you once might have been), to see that someone had been
posting articles on Usenet under my name for a couple of years.
I don't know whether this is an extreme coincidance or somebody
faking to be me? Although in "theory" nobody else may be able to
tell who is who or who is me, I can tell you that I have no relation
to that Murat Kalinyaprak at all... (Are you a hacker Yusuf Pisan?
If so, may be "you" can find out and tell me who that other guy is?)
Now, this Murat Kalinyaprak (me, myself) would like to become a
moderator for SCTM, and is officially announcing it right now and
here...
I am a very good person and I would make a great moderator. Since
I have never before posted on usenet (just like you, Yusuf Pisan?),
you will have to take my word for it...
Unlike Yusuf Pisan?'s erased past, I have no intentions to mess
with the other Murat Kalinyaprak's previous postings in the Usenet
archives, but I don't want anybody to mix us up and bring up any of
the other Murat Kalinyaprak's past articles in trying to oppose my
candidacy for moderatorship...
As for the future articles from Murat Kalinyaprak, I gues you all
just have to figure out which one is from which Murat Kalinyaprak
by yourselves...
> If you have been a regular contributor of Turkey then you might
> recognize me. If you have cared to look at my webpages about
> Turkey like thousands of other people you might understand and
> learn about me.
Yusuf Pisan?, if you were the president of Turkey, your web page
and what else you did for Turkey would still be irrelevant to
this issue...
> I inderstand the need to be critical of moderators, but we only
> get to know each other in a limited way on the net
The past article of a poster really help people in getting to
know him. But since neither one of us have never before posted
any articles on Usenet, I guess we will have to start from zero
and get to know each other in time...
> and I think you will have to be content with that and make your
> decision on what you know.
Yes! Yes! Exactly. That's the way to go Yusuf Pisan?! No trace
of past articles on Usenet, nobody can discuss anything about
you or me... Therefore, those bunch of idiots will all have to
make a decion about the two of us based on what they don't know!
I think two of us will make a great team, as the only moderator
candidates with spotless Usenet histories, in the whole Usenet
history itself...
>> If this can be grounds for your resignation as a
>> moderator and/or withdrawal of your proposal as a
>> mentor, I would like to know about it, for I may
>> want to pursue this...
> I or any other mdoerator does not need elaborate reasons to
> 'resign'.
So, why don't you have the decency to resign already...?
> This is volunteer work, we don't get paid so neither I nor
> anybody has any power over the moderators.
Sounds like sweet and free power... Count me in too... :)
> If you are suggesting I should be dismissed because my old
> articles from Dejanews have been canceled, I think you are
> being childish.
Oh, I don't know about that being childish... What kind of
behaviour is a mentor/moderator's erasing his Usenet past just
prior to proposing a new group? I can't tell exactly what date,
but I think in his previous article Murat Kalinyaprak had said that
he couldn't see articles only older than about a month, which kind
of coincides nicely with the launching of this SCTM thing, doesn't
it? Yusuf Pisan?, do you know when those articles were erased...?
Anyhow, since this seems to be an effort to eliminate criticism
and opposition to Yusuf Pisan? based on his track record, I think
it can well be and should be grounds enough for his dissmissal.
>> You are the mentor and also one of the moderators.
>> Are you suggesting that we should just not worry
>> about you or the other moderators...
> You should criticise me and/or the moderators, but pointing at
> an article which was talking about the initial idea of SCTM and
> criticisizing it is not productive.
I kind of sympathize with his complaint... I mean, how was the
guy supposed to responsibly criticize you without being able to
produce samples/evidence from your past behaviour/views...? If
he could, he might have pointed to 20 more articles. So, don't
try to reduce it to saying "an (one) article"... (BTW: that one
article was somebody else's, quoting an article of Yusuf Pisan?,
which the other Murat Kalinyaprak had stumbled into by luck.)
> Ideas change along the way, that is what discussion is for.
The question is, why couldn't you just say that your ideas have
changed, instead of erasing them...? Is SCTM a means for Yusuf
Pisan? to get a new life from scratch...?
> Do not criticize SCTM on the basis of what it never became.
Now with me as a moderator, it will be even better... :)
>> If you didn't feel like aswering how many people subscribed
>> to the mailing list, you could have substituted the number
>> of people who sent such inquiries/e-mails...
> I get ~50 emails a day, some work related others on other issues.
> I do not have time to generate statistics and I have no obligation
> to do so.
I think this shows quite well that, if you feel no obligation to
people questioning you now, you probaly will have no obligations
to anybody in the future either...!!!
> I gave you an estimate as best as I could.
The original question was about how many people had subcribed to
e-mail list you supposedly had created. Too many to count...? By
the dozens day after day...?
>>> The number of people I have discussed and asked for help in
>>> creating the RFD is probably less than 100.
>> But, you ended up getting support from "probably less than
>> 100" people by your own words. My question then is, why
>> have you not respected your own rule/goal/measure of minimal
>> interest and still went ahead with proposing SCTM...? What
>> the reason for the extreme ambition to create a moderated
>> newsgroup...?
> My intention in consulting people about SCTM was never to get
> say 500 supporters before I proposed the idea of SCTM.
Of course it wasn't 500. They all know that, because you had
said 100-200. But you didn't even get 100...!!!!
> It would have been nice if everybody was dying to have SCTM,
> but a lot of people, including you, had concerns about SCTM
> and the rules had to be formalized and an RFD written to address
> those concerns.
Should we compare the initial e-mail you sent to people with
the first version of the RFD published, line by line...?
> Once the RFD was written there was no reason not to discuss this
> on SCT, which is what is happening now.
No matter what God-given RFD you might have ended up with, it
was you who had wanted to discuss it within an exclusive circle
first, and it was you who had set the goal of 100-200 supporters,
and it was you who had asked recipients to not "leak" your e-mail
to SCT prematurely.
Just like the other Murat Kalinyaprak who had received a copy of
it had done, most recipients respected your wish by not "leaking"
yor e-mail to SCT and at the same time showing you that thet were
not interested by not replying to you or subcribing to your list.
But, you didn't have enough respect for your own goals/words to
drop the idea, as you should have because you didn't even get 100
supporters...
Since it was a private deal, a logic thing to assume would be that
you had sent that e-mail to people you thought most likely to
support your idea. And even among those hand-picked people that you
contacted, you got less than 100 supporters. And although you had
contacted them yourself, you didn't respect their will either. What
kind of a worse failure/indication that this would have been enough
for you to not pursue SCTM any further...?
> Newsgroup creation is an open process, it does not happen behind
> closed doors.
But, I guess you think it's ok for it to at least start out
happening behind closed doors...?
> 21 day discussion period tries to address this and see what
> concerns people have. The final decision is done by voting. I
> still think that there will be ~2000 votes for SCTM, but I can be
> wrong. For now there is only ~30 people discussing the issue on
> SCT and news.groups, but there might be more reading.
Well, now that I will be one of the moderators, all I can say is:
"Good luck to us"... :)
>Yusuf
MK
Murat Kalinyaprak
In <wkzpodm...@nwu.edu> Yusuf Pisan wrote:
>Hakan Oksuzoglu <ha...@fys.ruu.nl> writes:
>> I suggested that the self-appointed moderators (or reviewers)
>> will receive articles by e-mail from people who trust them and
>> forward the articles to SCT, just like you post the news about
>> Turkey. (Sometimes I only read the news you post and delete
>> the rest).
> Thank you for reading my articles, but as I stated earlier your
> suggestion has many technical and social problems associated with it.
What "technical problems"...? And especially whay
"*social* problems"...?
MK
>I do not know of any newsgroup who has adapted a method like the one
>you are suggesting and succeeded. If there are any examples, please
>point them out to me.
>
>Moderated newsgroups formalize the process you are suggesting and in
>addition take the necessary measure to prevent SPAM. Moderated
>newsgroups have existed succesfully for many years and there is
>existing softwae and necessary mechanisms in place for them, so at
>this point I think soc.culture.turkish.moderated is still the best
>option.
>
>> I am also tired of seeing so many articles full of insult and hatred.
>> But this
>> cannot alone justify to create a redundant news group.
>
>Insult and hatred is not the *only* justification, but it is an
>important part of it. Another important factor is that there is lots
>of 'junk/SPAM' not related to Turkey or issues concerning Turks on
>SCT. SCTM will create a less hostile discussion forum with more
>articles about Turkey and Turks that will be worth reading.
>
>
>> ... Small group of people deciding
>> what is good , what is bad for a large group of people and doing that
>> with public money.
>
>This is the way moderated newsgroups work. Moderators follow the
>rules that were agreed by a majority vote. If you are against
>moderated newsgroups, I am not going to argue about that.
>
>As long as SCT exist, people will have a choice where they want their
>article submitted.
>
>> Not that I have any problems with the currently proposed
>> moderators. But knowing that only moderators can decide who will be
>> the next moderator makes me wonder about the future of the SCTM.
>
>This is the only reasonable route on newsgroups. All moderated
>newsgroups (as far as I know) use this method. We cannot have a
>public vote every time a modertor leaves. The moderators *will* take
>into account the opinions of people on SCTM and I expect there will be
>a public discussion before a new moderator is approved, but the final
>decision will remain with 2/3 majority from the existing moderators.
>
>Yusuf
>
Erol Keskin
RACER wrote:
> Mustafa Soysal MS57 wrote:
> >
> > In article <3442170D...@cmq.com>, Erol Keskin <er...@cmq.com> wrote:
> > >Murat Kalinyaprak wrote:
> > ..
> > > I hope someone would explain it to me!!!
> >
> > I think that uzman works for the Ministry of Foregin Affairs of Turkey
> > in Italy. Therefore, this is the Tukrish government involved in censoring
> > usenet.
>
> Don't bullshit Recai.
>
> Erol Bey Mustafa beyin Bakirkoy'deki yeri temin edildi mi efem?
>
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > Erol Keskin
> > >
> > >
> > >
Yes, of course, the room is heavily padded. And if he tries to run away
again,
hastabakicilar obur ayagini da sakatliyacaklar. Hehehehehe.
Erol Keskin
bill mesrobian
Dear Mr. Akbulut,
You have put your light on a problem with the business of
newsgroups and the reason why some people are looking for
a moderated SCT. Murat and I have disagreed about numerous
things, but most of all I have objected to his arrogance
and inability to stick to one topic. I don't know if
a moderated SCT will help this, but if there is any way
of keeping Murat to the subject, I would truly welcome it.
If he wishes to start a thread on his anti-Armenian bias,
then fine. He can do so without me. I can dislike him
without his active participation. If he wishes to start
a thread on archaeological finds in Anatolia, I'd love
to participate, but not with him. Sooner or later he'll
dissolve into bias again. And if I call him on it he'll
seem to lose interest in the discussion.
Thank you for your observation.
Bill
P.S. Seriously. I'm very interested in ancient finds in
Anatolia. Especially those prior to 2000 BC.
akb...@math.msu.edu (Selman Akbulut) wrote:
>> Murat Kalinyaprak:
>> ..And there has been a few comments, insterestingly
>> from the supporters of SCTM, about the possibility of
>> Armenian voters opposing him as a moderator... He also
>> himself wrote an article asking that his candidacy
>> should not worry the Armenian readers. (Why should it,
>> if he will resign the next day?) All this, while
>> Armenians (and other nationalities/ethnicities who
>> would be expected to have an interest in the issue)
>> have been completely silent...
>
>What a cheap shot... Mr Kalinyaprak, it is not becoming of you trying to
>whip up Ermenian opposition to SCTM while trying to slander a moderator. I
>happened to know that the moderator you are referring to wrote articles to
>promote peace and friendship between Turks and Ermenians... May be you are
>angry, because you were not asked to be a moderator. I personally think
>your stance on civil rights in Turkey, as well as your hostile
>ultra-nationalistic positions are too intolerant virtues for a moderator.
>Maybe you and like-minded Ermenian zealots who don't like to see civil
>discussions between different nationalities would object SCTM, why
>supported it while you can use SCT to provoke and use as your battle
>ground?...
>
>Selman Akbulut
>---------------
Mustafa Soysal MS57
I think that uzman works for the Ministry of Foregin Affairs of Turkey
in Italy. Therefore, this is the Tukrish government involved in censoring
usenet.
>
>
> Erol Keskin
>
>
>
Bernhard Muenzer
There's no reason that this has to be started from within Turkey.
Furthermore, there is no reason to use a rather non-descriptive two-letter
name for the hierarchy (see the recently founded malta.* hierarchy).
>but it will probably be a couple of years before this hierarchy is
>established
A good reason to just start turk.* from wherever this job can be done
faster.
>and it's not known if tr.* hierarchy will be distributed outside of
>Turkey.
That should be the final straw to try starting turk.* from somewhere else
(nwu.edu might be as good a place like any other).
BTW a turkish _language_ hierarchy can very well coexist with a _national_
Turkish hierarchy. Both can serve completely different purposes and fill
different needs.
>As you all know, creating a new hierarchy that will be distributed
>worldwide is a lot harder than proposing/creating a new newsgroup.
Not necessarily.
I believe that it won't be hard to get good propagation for a Turkish
language hierarchy in the US and in Germany on university servers and large
ISPs quite fast. This may be enough initial momentum to propagate such a
hirarchy further.
>At this point we feel that soc.culture.turkish.moderated will be
>sufficient to answer the needs of the Turkish community. In the next
>couple of years, when the number of users connected to the Internet
>from Turkey has increased significantly a new hierarchy might be more
>appropriate.
I think a turk.* hierarchy will be most needed by Turks living outside
Turkey, and the existence of such a heirarchy might then boost the Internet
connectivity in Turkey.
Don't wait for the things to happen the other way round - it will take
longer, and you might not even like the results.
--
int m,u,e=0;float l,_,I;main(){for(;1840-e;putchar((++e>912&&941>
e?60-m:u)["\n)ed.fsg@eum(rezneuM drahnreB"]))for(u=_=l=0;79-(m=e%
80)&&I*l+_*_<6&&20-++u;_=2*l*_+e/80*.09-1,l=I)I=l*l-_*_-2+m/27.;}
Murat Kalinyaprak
In <347fc028....@news.pipeline.com> jim...@pipeline.com wrote:
>In <61rav6$gn7$1...@news.chatlink.com> Murat Kalinyaprak wrote:
>>> I do not know of any newsgroups that currently use this method
>>> (forward articles that somebody likes once again with specific
>>> keywords). Can you point me to any examples where this method
>>> works?
>> Why can't SCT be the first one to try it...?
> It doesn't have to be one or the other.
Neither does it have to be both...
> Why don't you try your approach in SCT?
Isn't this the same exact question I had asked...?
> Maybe you can use NoCeM.
Thanks for the idea. Let's have more constructive
suggestions and let's try it, instead of creating
an SCTM for some people's dubious ambitions...
MK
Murat Ataman
In article <akbulut-1310...@pm175-28.dialip.mich.net>,
akb...@math.msu.edu (Selman Akbulut) wrote:
> > Hakan Basagaoglu:
> > Erol Bey, son cumleniz oldukca yerinde olmus. Ancak iste hala
> > acayiplik var, azerilerin discussion gruplarina red oyu ile
> > gelmek ve onlari nette susturmayi hedef almanin ne ozgur dusunce
> > nede tartisma adabi ile bir ilgisi vardir. Bunu destekleyen bir
> > insanin (Macreau nun Azeriler ile ilgili yazilari dejanews den
> > kontrol edilebilir) yani insanlarin susmasi icin kulis yapan bir
> > kisinin, SCTM de ozgur ve terbiyeli bir tartisma icin moderator
> > adayi olmasi komik kalmiyor mu? soylemeye ne hacet bu tur sacma
> > seylerde elbette Salman Akbulut un bilimsel testinden gecip pozitif
> > kredit alacaktir:-) Salman Akbulut u kendi halinde testi ile
> > basbasa birakmakta > fayda var derim:-)))
>
> Sayin Basagaoglu:
>
> Cok ciddi bir suclama yaptiniz, yani Uzman'nin "Macreau" adiyla Turkiye
> du$manligi yapitigini yazdiniz. Guzel o zaman ispat edin, hepimiz bu
> ki$iyi yeterli ara$tirmadan destekledigimiz icin sizden ozur dileyelim ve
> Uzman'in adayliktan cekilmesini destekleyelim. Isterseniz sayin Uzman'a
> kendisi hakkinda bilgi vermesini rica edelim, belki acikliga kavu$ur...
> Fakat eger bu suclamaniz asilsiz cikarsa, ne kadar buyuk bir iftira
> "slander" yapmi$ olabileceginizin farkinda misiniz? O zaman Uzman dava
> acip sizi altindan kalkamayacaginiz tazminat cezasina carptirtabilir
> (ayrica hayat boyu sucsuz bir insana haksiz yere milyonlarca ki$i onunde
> iftira etmi$ biri olarak taninmak ta caba), bu riskleri goze alabilecek
> kadar kendinizden emin misiniz?...
>
> Ha "ben neden kendisini sadece SCT yazilarindan tanimama ragmen, Uzman'in
> bazi gordugum yazilarini tebrik ettim?", cevap gayet basit: Cunku o
> yazilari guzel yazmi$ti.... Sizde guzel akilli yazilar yazin sizide tebrik
> edeyim...
>
> Selman Akbulut
> --------------
Bence uzmani dovelim (eger bu dogruysa)
Murat Ataman
In article <c1.2bm.2Hvgzc$Q...@freedom2.express.net>,
So that means the government is trying to take a position to moderate SCT
in a way?? (At least to protect the readers in Turkey from harmful
material??)
It's really funny to see Yusuf Pisan to be in schemes like this,
especially what he had been thru with the gov't because of some content he
had in his site years ago...:-)
>
> >
> >
> > Erol Keskin
> >
> >
> >
Murat Kalinyaprak
In <wk90vxo...@nwu.edu> Yusuf Pisan wrote:
> mu...@cyberport.net (Murat Kalinyaprak) writes:
>> In <wk67r3t...@My-Silly.nwu.edu> Yusuf Pisan wrote:
>>> Neither Murat Kalinyaprak nor Selman Akbulut is one of the
>>> moderators. We do not need to discuss their viewpoints on
>>> issues. We should concentrate on the rules and regulations
>>> of SCTM.
>> So, basically you are suggesting that we should forget
>> about discussing any moderator related issues and just
>> concentrate on the rules and regulations...?
> No. Read what I wrote. We should discuss rules/regualtions...
I read what you wrote, but sorry, I was thinking
faster than I could type. What I wrote was based
on a contrast I was making in my mind. (See below)
> Selman Akbulut and Murak Kalinyaprak (you) are not among the
> moderators, so their opinions and their viewpoints can not be
> used as a justification either for or against SCTM.
But, if they were among the moderators, then their
opinions and viewpoints could have been used as a
justification for being for or against SCTM...
Thus, since Yusuf Pisan is among the moderators,
his opinions and viewpoints can be used as a
justification for being for or against SCTM...
Logical so far...? Now the question is: "how can
anybody possibly use Yusuf Pisan's opinions and
viewpoints as a justification for being for or
against SCTM, if nobody can find a trace of them
on the Usenet because they somehow all of a sudden
misteriously disappeared"...?
If Yusuf Pisan has erased his past articles from
Usenet archives himself (possibly shortly before
launching the idea of an SCTM), I believe that it
should be seen as his erasing his tracks to avoid
opposition and criticism, and should be grounds
enough for his voluntary resignation or dismissal
if the rules allow/require it...
>> If the original posting of the RFD was cancelled by
>> Yusuf Pisan, I request that we respect his wish and
>> consider his proposal for SCTM cancelled/withdrawn by
>> the mentor himself.
> Do you know how Cancel messages work?
No. My original question were whether you erased
all of your past articles from all Usenet archives
yourself. And then I had asked, if so, why and how
did you do it.
You could have skipped the "why" part, but if you
had bothered to answer the "how part, I would have
learned it then, and would not have asked the above
question again...
> Please read more about who newsgroups work before you
> make such statements.
Don't worry, we will be reading and learning as
knowing such things becomes necessary...
> You can read "control" newsgroup to confirm the message
> was not canceled. news.announce.newsgroups is a moderated
> newsgroups, you can email "Dave Lawrence" who is the
> moderator to confirm that it has not been canceled.
Thanks for the suggestion. In the meantime, if it
was in fact you who erased them, could you tell us
how you erased them from archives like DejaNews,
without having to send cancel messages...?
MK
Erol Keskin
Selman Akbulut wrote:
> > Dear Mr. Akbulut,
> >
> > You have put your light on a problem with the business of
> > newsgroups and the reason why some people are looking for
> > a moderated SCT. Murat and I have disagreed about numerous
> > things, but most of all I have objected to his arrogance
> > and inability to stick to one topic. I don't know if
> > a moderated SCT will help this, but if there is any way
> > of keeping Murat to the subject, I would truly welcome it.
> > If he wishes to start a thread on his anti-Armenian bias,
> > then fine. He can do so without me. I can dislike him
> > without his active participation. If he wishes to start
> > a thread on archaeological finds in Anatolia, I'd love
> > to participate, but not with him. Sooner or later he'll
> > dissolve into bias again. And if I call him on it he'll
> > seem to lose interest in the discussion.
> >
> > Thank you for your observation.
> >
> > Bill
> >
> >
> > P.S. Seriously. I'm very interested in ancient finds in
> > Anatolia. Especially those prior to 2000 BC.
>
> Dear Bill,
>
> Thanks for the kind words.
Kissy, kissy. Look I am an Westerner, do you like me? Please like me.
> Even though I red and wrote fair number of
> articles in SCT recentley, I am not that close follower of SCT. I must
> have missed your exchanges with Mr Kalinyaprak...
If you must... Hehehehe. They write quite a bit. If you miss it, It means
you don't read SCT even once a month. Who do you think you are fooling?
> All I can say is that I
> find his views on civil rights in Turkey (e.g. right to wear what you
> want..etc..) as well as his provocative ultra-nationalistic style
> ridiculous, if not oversimplistic.
You don't read the person but you have some very absolute ideas about him.
Which rule is that on your 'mecelle'? "Ebcet" jockey.
> I can understand why he sounds
> desperate lately.
I read and follow Mr. Kalinyaprak. He is one of the most capable thinkers
of this newsgroup. And as far as I know he is enjoying the atmosfere lately
instead of being desparate. Eh you can make some mistakes? As you have
been?
> Most likely SCTM will create an alternative medium for
> the captive audience of SCT...
SCTM will create a medium (with those moderators) for armenians and greeks
to
roam and will give you a chance to kiss more asses. Nothing else.
> As you know SCT is full of self-appointed
> patriotic enforces fighting wars happily amongst each other. Already many,
> who support the creation of SCTM, are branded as foreign agents trying to
> destroy Turkey, Ermenian spys..etc by these zealots (I can imagine the
> responses I will receive as a result of this posting).
I think you are correct on your assumptions. :-) Except noone branded you
with anything, with any shit yet. Although the idea is crossing my mind
every time I read your nonsense on SCT.
> I personally belive
> that there are many interesting cultural subjects to discuss about Turkey
> which is a rich cultural mosaic. Yes I believe it is possible to exchange
> ideas in civilized manner between different peoples indepented of their
> race/nationality/creed.
If you are a professor learn how to spell first. What is "indepented"?
Do you want to say "Independent"? Now go and write 100 times "Independent".
>
>
> Yes I am very much interested the ancient Anatolan history, more generally
> ancient Middle Estern history, which is full of interesting events and
> cultures.
You woulnd't know what Mesborian is interested in if he stuff them in your
eye.
You have to trust me on this one. Because you are the one who says "I don't
read SCT" arent you? So are you just jumping on a first Armenian you see
for
a life jacket or are you showing to people how smart you are? Which is it?
>
>
> Selman
> ------
Bill Mesborian now is in between a paranoid Armenian and an hungry wolf
thinking
he can spew his poison at a moderated SCT yet he can hide behind the
secret, semi
secret ARmenian mailing lists.
Professor or what ever you are, GROW UP FIRST. You and the other Benedict
Arnold
who doesn't like Turksih Army. :-)
Erol
Selman Akbulut
> Erol keskin:
> You don't read the person but you have some very absolute ideas about him.
> Which rule is that on your 'mecelle'? "Ebcet" jockey.
In the past I myself exchanged many messages with Mr Kalinyaprak in SCT
(see Dejanews archives, for example under the thread "Sakal,bas ortusu ve
Yunanistan'in silahlanmasi").
Selman
------
Selman Akbulut
> Dear Mr. Akbulut,
>
> You have put your light on a problem with the business of
> newsgroups and the reason why some people are looking for
> a moderated SCT. Murat and I have disagreed about numerous
> things, but most of all I have objected to his arrogance
> and inability to stick to one topic. I don't know if
> a moderated SCT will help this, but if there is any way
> of keeping Murat to the subject, I would truly welcome it.
> If he wishes to start a thread on his anti-Armenian bias,
> then fine. He can do so without me. I can dislike him
> without his active participation. If he wishes to start
> a thread on archaeological finds in Anatolia, I'd love
> to participate, but not with him. Sooner or later he'll
> dissolve into bias again. And if I call him on it he'll
> seem to lose interest in the discussion.
>
> Thank you for your observation.
>
> Bill
>
>
> P.S. Seriously. I'm very interested in ancient finds in
> Anatolia. Especially those prior to 2000 BC.
Dear Bill,
Thanks for the kind words. Even though I red and wrote fair number of
articles in SCT recentley, I am not that close follower of SCT. I must
have missed your exchanges with Mr Kalinyaprak... All I can say is that I
find his views on civil rights in Turkey (e.g. right to wear what you
want..etc..) as well as his provocative ultra-nationalistic style
ridiculous, if not oversimplistic. I can understand why he sounds
desperate lately. Most likely SCTM will create an alternative medium for
the captive audience of SCT... As you know SCT is full of self-appointed
patriotic enforces fighting wars happily amongst each other. Already many,
who support the creation of SCTM, are branded as foreign agents trying to
destroy Turkey, Ermenian spys..etc by these zealots (I can imagine the
responses I will receive as a result of this posting). I personally belive
that there are many interesting cultural subjects to discuss about Turkey
which is a rich cultural mosaic. Yes I believe it is possible to exchange
ideas in civilized manner between different peoples indepented of their
race/nationality/creed.
Yes I am very much interested the ancient Anatolan history, more generally
ancient Middle Estern history, which is full of interesting events and
cultures.
Selman
------
Murat Ataman
In article <wkwwjgj...@nwu.edu>, Yusuf Pisan <y-p...@nwu.edu> wrote:
> mu...@ix.netcom.com (Murat Ataman) writes:
>
>
> > Bence uzmani dovelim (eger bu dogruysa)
>
> I do not think a public beating would be civilized behaviour. I can
> guarantee that if SCTM is accepted that there will be no public
> beating in this new group. :-)
>
>
> Despite my joking comment above, I think we should try to stick to
> issues pertaining SCTM adn stop making accusations without any basis.
>
> Yusuf
Have a little sense of humor, will you..
RACER
Yusuf Pisan wrote:
>
> Maybe Uzman and all the other moderators are me under different names
> :-))
>
> In all seriousness, the moderators know each other a little bit more
> than other people know each other on SCT. What the moderators have in
> common is that they are willing to make an effort to create a
> civilized discussion forum, and they have all demonstrated their
> interest in advancing Turkey in the past.
>
> As for the claim that the Turkish government is trying to 'censor'
> newsgroups, I think it is a bit far fetched. Unfortunately the
> Turkish government is still in the old ages with respect to their
> computer use. If it is not on paper and does not have an official
> stamp, it is probably not from the government.
>
> If one of the moderators is a government agent, I'd put my bet on
> Zafer or Huseyin. As professors in a Turkish university, their
> salaries are les than $500/month. As we all know you cannot feed a
> family with that salary, so they must be working on the side for the
> government. :-)
>
> Being one of the moderators for SCTM has attracted a lot of insults
> and slander. Everything from sexual orientation to writing under
> multiple names to ehnic origins to working for the government. I
> think it is time to be more fair to the moderators and criticise them
> for what they are and what their goals are instead of trying to smear
> them with dirt hoping something will stick.
>
> The aim of SCTM has been clear from the start. The intention is to
> create a civilized forum to discuss issues related to Turkey/Turks.
> You have the right to scrutinize the credibility of the moderators,
> and/or comment on the RFD for SCTM, but let's please try to keep this
> discussion civilized.
>
> Yusuf
Sayin Pisan,
Cok kibar bicimde soruyorum, Deja News arsivindeki yazilariniza ne
oldu? Bizi bu konuda aydinlatirsaniz cok sevinecegiz beyefendi.
Simdiden tesekkuru bir borc bilirim.
Saygilarimla.
Mustafa Soysal MS57
In article <murat-14109...@lax-ca22-04.ix.netcom.com>,
Murat Ataman <mu...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>In article <c1.2bm.2Hvgzc$Q...@freedom2.express.net>,
>mso...@mistik.express.net (Mustafa Soysal MS57) wrote:
>
>> In article <3442170D...@cmq.com>, Erol Keskin <er...@cmq.com> wrote:
>> >Murat Kalinyaprak wrote:
>> ..
>> > I hope someone would explain it to me!!!
>>
>> I think that uzman works for the Ministry of Foregin Affairs of Turkey
>> in Italy. Therefore, this is the Tukrish government involved in censoring
>> usenet.
>
>
>So that means the government is trying to take a position to moderate SCT
>in a way?? (At least to protect the readers in Turkey from harmful
>material??)
Actually, to keep hiding their zionist identity.
>
>It's really funny to see Yusuf Pisan to be in schemes like this,
>especially what he had been thru with the gov't because of some content he
>had in his site years ago...:-)
He hasn't been thru anything. Well, I take that back. He had been thru
his military service in Turkey, and posted about it.
His parents were getting paranoid about that posting and bugging him to
retract his posting about his own military service experience....that
was it. He retracted it. Nice moderator candidate, don't you think so?
Now, I have been in the Istanbul airport jail for refusing to pay a
bribe...if that was to give me any credit :) And I oppose any kind of
moderation. Canceling forged articles is a different matter of course
which I had brought up as a pre-RFD. Yusuf was the first one to oppose
it. Note that I didn't have to bring it up as a pre-RFD. As a news
administrator, I can cancel forged articles. Yet I wanted to see who
was complaning about them anyways. It turned out there were no more
then 10 people interested in the subject (pro+contra)
Therefore I didn't follow thru with an RFD.
Yusuf is just trying to score for his masonic lounge.
Cumhur Pulic
> Cevdet Akbay wrote:
> > Ben bir Kurd'um, musluman bir Kurd.
> > cevdet...
Murat Kalinyaprak
In <wkyb3wj...@nwu.edu> Yusuf Pisan wrote:
> Being one of the moderators for SCTM has attracted a lot of
> insults and slander. Everything from sexual orientation to
> writing under multiple names to ehnic origins to working for
> the government.
Heh heh... But by Yusuf Pisan?'s own argument, in "theory"
we don't know who is writing behind what name, do we...? :)
Haven't we ever heard about the war veteran who got a medal
for shooting himself in the foot sitting on a toilet...? :)
> I think it is time to be more fair to the moderators and
> criticise them for what they are and what their goals are
We would like to do that very much. But how can we, if we can't
even find your past articles in DejaNews...?
> instead of trying to smear them with dirt hoping something
> will stick.
What other choice have you left them with...?
> The aim of SCTM has been clear from the start. The intention is to
> create a civilized forum to discuss issues related to Turkey/Turks.
> You have the right to scrutinize the credibility of the moderators,
Based on what...? Your word to us...? Based on your failing to
give straight answers to questions about your articles having
disapperared and based on your attitude about your not being
obligated to answer some other questions asked, I can't trust
you and I think that you may defy accountability in the future.
> and/or comment on the RFD for SCTM, but let's please try to keep
> this discussion civilized.
Why won't you consider resigning and still keep mentoring the
proposed group...? Do you think you are indispensable and that
nobody else can be as good a moderator as you can...? Or else,
what other reason may be keeping you from doing so...?
MK
Murat Kalinyaprak
akb...@math.msu.edu (Selman Akbulut) wrote:
Selman, why are you so obcessed with me and our articles in
Dejanews archives so much, when we should have more important
concerns like the creation of SCTM...
You have been an avid supporter of SCTM and its proposed
moderators. Could you tell me same good things about Yusuf
Pisan?, based on those Dejanews archives that you have been
holding so sacred recently...?
Let's shorten this game. You probably already know that all
past articles of Yusuf Pisan? have recently and mysteriously
disappeared from your "dear" Dejanews archives...
Now, Prof, here is the microphone... Please speak loud and
clearly, and give us your respectable opinion on the matter.
MK
Murat Kalinyaprak
In <wkvhz0j...@nwu.edu> Yusuf Pisan wrote:
> mu...@cyberport.net (Murat Kalinyaprak) writes:
>> Now, this Murat Kalinyaprak (me, myself) would like to become a
>> moderator for SCTM, and is officially announcing it right now and
>> here...
> Please send an email to y-p...@nwu.edu stating whay you think you
> would be a good moderator for SCTM.
I had already given a couple of good reasons in my previous
article and I don't think I should be required to give any
more reasons than you have given for yourself. But, since you
are asking, I'll give you one good reason that should at least
suffice you: "My past articles are still in Usnet archives!!!".
> There are already 5 moderators for SCTM, so I do not think a 6th
> moderator is required at this point, but the moderation team will
> consider your candidacy.
Take a look at this (in case you haven't seen it already:)
-----------------------------------------------------------------
In <Pine.A41.3.96.971012...@rorqual.cc.metu.edu.tr>
Zafer Bozkus wrote:
.......... SCTM'deki moderatorlugum uzun surmeyecek, sadece
kurulusunda bir katkim olsun diye soyundum bu ise. SCTM'nin
kurulmasi gerceklesir gerceklesmez zaten ayrilacagim. Ustte
saydigim nedenlerden dolayi bu isin yogun temposuna ayak
uyduracagimi zannetmiyorum. Bu isi orada benden daha iyi
yapacak biri ile yerimin kolaylikla doldurulacagina inaniyorum.
Bosalacak yerime Sn. Yagci'nin aday olmasinda bir sakinca
oldugunu zannetmiyorum.
Translation:
.......... My moderatorship in SCTM won't be long-lasting,
I only became involved in this work just to have contributed to
its creation. As soon as the creation of SCTM becomes a reality
I will resign anyway. Because of the reasons I enumerated above,
I don't think I can keep up with the heavy pace of this work. I
belive that my place will be easily filled with someone who can
do this work better there. I don't think there is anything
against Mr. Yagci's being a candidate for my place that will
become vacant.
(Please feel free to correct/offer better transalations.)
-----------------------------------------------------------------
I believe that Zafer Bozkus is a very worthy and good willing
person. But I think he may be letting himself be used for a
"not so noble cause"... I also have great respect for his being
open and honest about the reality...
But, without meaning any disrespect to him, I have to voice
my opinion that I consider this as putting up a fake-facade,
a bait-and-switch tactics...
Is this allowed by group creation rules...? Or better yet, do
you guys yourselves find this ethical and appropriate...?
Please give some direct answers and let the voters know whom
they will be voting for/against...
About the 6th moderator, hadn't you say that there was already
a 6th (backup) moderator, in your first reply to my first
response to the RDF...? What happened to that moderator...?
And by the way you had never answered my question about whom
he was, even though it was/is significant in light of the above
announcement...
I would like both Yusuf Pisan? and Zafer Boskus to resign,
and I would like to see this process proceed with two new
candidates, even if Yusuf Pisan? remains the mentor. I have
no ambitions about being a moderator and if the above happens,
I would rather prefer that I'm not one of the new candidates.
> You do not have to be a moderator to help out with SCTM.
Right. Neither do you "have to be" a moderator to help with
SCTM. *Or* *do* *you*...!?
>> Anyhow, since this seems to be an effort to eliminate criticism
>> and opposition to Yusuf Pisan? based on his track record, I think
>> it can well be and should be grounds enough for his dissmissal.
> I think the fact that you cannot find my old articles in Dejanews
> does not mean the criticism against me was erased. After all, I
> was most probably not criticisizing myself.
I'm sure you are bright enough to understand that I was talking
about our opportunity to criticize you and possibly oppose you
today, based on what you had written in the past...!
Unless you can claim, that as soon as the idea of a moderated
group and being a moderator hit you, you became a brand new person;
your past attitude, views, style, etc. would all be relevant
material for us to criticize you with and/or oppose your candidacy
if we wanted to. But now, being unable to substanciate anything we
may say against you, you are as safe as in your mother's arms...
> I suggest you start signing your articles with PGP to ensure
> authenticity and keep a seperate copy for your self just in
> case your articles disappear from Dejanews or you are mistaken
> for the other 'Murat Kalinyaprak'.
Oooohhh, is that what happened to Yusuf Pisan?...? Stop trying
to be slick and giving "in theory", "just in case" answers...
If my articles had gotten somehow erased from DejaNews, I would
be furious, I would call them right away to see if they can
restore them from their backup files, I would be asking people
on SCT if anything similar happeened to them and if so what were
they able to do to restore them, I would have asked every reader
to e-mail me any of my articles they may have so that I can
repost them, I would have done whatever just to get them back.
Now, please, give us your straight story Yusuf Pisan?...!
On top of Yusuf Pisan?, we have a moderator with rather old 3-4
articles locatable in DejaNews (he already announced his soon
coming resignation), we have another one with no articles that
I could find, and we have yet another moderator candidate who
doesn't mind swearing and insulting himself?/herslef? but will
save us all from swears and insults in SCTM (as a minor remark:
neither does this one use his?/Her? full name)...
Personally, I believe all this is rather becoming a disgrace
to all of us in SCT and on the Usenet...
> There are already 5 moderators for SCTM,
Only "in theory" Yusuf Pisan?, because one of them has already
"theorically" resigned... :)
I'm sure you are a dignified person, and with your resignation
there will be two new moderators needed (which I hope will
not be found from somewhere behind closed doors, unless of
course you have already forgotten what you said about "closed
doors" just yesterday)...
MK
Murat Kalinyaprak
akb...@math.msu.edu (Selman Akbulut) wrote:
> No go sorry... Your expected Turkish/Armenian war
> has not taken place... keep howling to the wind.
Are you retarded or something...? I was predicting
that no mass-opposition from Armenians would occur.
Has a single Armenian, Greek, Kurd, etc. voiced any
opposition to SCTM yet...? You could at least pay a
couple of them to pretend they are against SCTM, so
that things wouldn't look too obvious. If not that,
maybe you could find a couple of "hackers" to write
behind false names, so that you can rally the Turks
against the "enemies"...
You may think they are dumb and blind, but whether
Turks or not, followers of SCT may just happen to
know who their real "enemies" are...
MK