Turkish Responses to the Conference in Germany: Taner Akcam and other Turks Main Targets
REAL
Turks Main Targets
Friday, March 30, 2001
Mülheim, Germany, March. 30. - Under the theme "The Heavy Burden of
History: An Attempt at Armenian-Turkish Dialogue" a conference was
convened in Mülheim, Germany March 23-25, 2001. The sponsors were the
German-Armenian Association, The German-Turkish Union for Humanistic and
Social Science Exchanges, and the Protestant Academy at Mülheim on the
Ruhr. Nearly 150 people attended the conference.
Papers or responses to papers were delivered by the following
specialists: Halil Berktay, Aram Arkun, Richard Hovannisian, Fikret
Adanir, Lorna Touryan Miller, Taner Akcam, Ridvan Akar, Otto
Luchterhand, Hakop Tschakerian, Kaan Soyak. The discussions and debates
were fruitful and productive.
The specific themes and main topics of the ensuing debates are in
themselves subjects that deserve a separate description. Most important
however, was the reaction of the state authorities representing the
Republic of Turkey. It is evident now that while the two representatives
of the Ankara government, both involved in directing and controlling
future "dialogues" with Armenians, while moderate and subdued throughout
the conference, surreptitiously organized, however, a vicious campaign
against the same conference.
This was revealed by German police authorities. In their disclosure,
they stated "We have concrete intelligence that the campaign launched
against the conference was entirely organized from Ankara." As a result,
a conference of limited scope and participation was magnified in
significance, putting on the spot the Turkish community in Germany.
Vicious Diatribes of the Turkish Press in Germany
Several days before the conference an intense propaganda campaign was
set in motion that peaked when the German edition of Hürriyet, a Turkish
daily with a large circulation, in its headline story "The Dialogue
Trap" denounced the conference saying that the dialogue was a ruse to
create support for Armenian theses and claims in which Taner Akçam
played a major role. Other bold headlines soon followed, such as "The
Region's Turks Are Troubled," and "A Wicked Gathering in Germany," all
apparently aimed at inciting Turks.
The purpose of these provocative headlines was to inflame Turks against
the participants and organizers of the conference. The Hürriyet, on
succeeding days, through numerous headlines and sidebars, continued its
vitriolic attacks on the conference and intensified its aggressive
campaign to incite Turks. In fact, some observers believe it organized
and directed the demonstrations using such catchwords as "The Lackeys of
the Armenians," "The Enemies of the Turks," and "Traitors!"- all printed
in bold headlines.
At the Ulucami mosque in Mülheim an exhibition was installed that
displayed images of Turks "Massacred by the Armenians" that was made to
coincide with the start of the conference. On the opening day a group of
fifty Turks staged a demonstration in front of the conference building
carrying black colored wreaths and pictures of Turkish diplomats slain
by the ASALA avengers. Other Turks kept vigil throughout the duration of
the conference. To deflect attention from the conference and draw people
to these exhibits first, the Hürriyet's headlines blared "Visit this
Exhibition Too," "See This Exhibition First," "The Maras Massacre by
Armenian Brigands," "The Protest Walk," "Respond to the Wicked
Conference!"
On March 24, a headline read, "After The Kurdish Trick Now It is The
Armenian Plot that is Poisoning The Atmosphere in Germany Targeting the
Turks." Under the banner "We Are On the Watch," the newspaper filled
nearly four pages with stories and pictures of the conference. It
claimed that the streets of Mülheim were filled with posters prepared by
the Turks. One poster portrayed two new-born infants, representing an
Armenian and a Turk, tied together at the arms with the caption,
"Fragile, Handle with Care."
On March 25, one headline blared "Frightening," with the subtitle "At
the Armenian Dialogue Gathering Turkey was Sentenced and Executed." In a
companion column the photo of Turkish professor Elçin Kürsat Ahler, of
the University of Hannover, appeared with the caption "Turkey is being
stabbed by one of Turkish origin." The editor-in-chief of the paper in
his editorial "Playing with Fire," attacked both Ahler and Akcam with
nauseating invectives ending with the threat, "Don't! Otherwise your
hand may get burned." The next day, March 26, the press attacks against
Prof. Kürsat continued and again included her photo. These assaults
against Kürsat, Akcam, and other participants also appeared in other
Turkish newspapers. The organ of the militantly nationalistic Gray
Wolves, Türkiye on Monday, March 26, used the dual headlines, "They
Vomited Vengeance," "They Really Went Mad" (Kudurdular), at the same
time issuing the proclamation of the Association of Nationalist Turks.
In it Armenians were warned with such threats as "We are afraid that all
these modes of behavior may make the Armenians more miserable… Turkey
belongs to the Turkish nation; it became so at a price that it is
impossible for you to repay us for… draw lessons from the past!"
The Ankara Officials
Parallel with this campaign of terror and intimidation, the Turkish
Republic's state authority showed great interest as it participated in
the conference at a high level. Among the attendees were Dr. Umit Ozdag,
Chairman of the Center for Eurasian Strategic Studies (ASAM), and Omer
Lutem, the head of the Foundation For Armenian Research, that is
affiliated with ASAM. In addition, Ankara had a group of 5-6 operatives
who directed the outside demonstrations with whose participants they
were in constant touch. The Association of Ataturkist Ideals secured for
this group a table through which they were able to propagate and sell
their pamphlets. Members of this group systematically and constantly
interrupted the debates to articulate Turkish viewpoints. Their main
charge was: "This is a monologue, not a dialogue. Nobody in a position
to defend the views of the Turkish state was invited to deliver a paper.
This is not an objective approach. The Turks are being adjudged
one-sidedly." This mantra was repeated again and again after every
presentation. At the end of the conference ambassador emeritus Omer
Lutem was invited to offer his comments. In a lengthy speech he repeated
the above argument, adding that the real dialogue will be organized by
his own organization. In this connection, he mentioned two projected
symposiums, one to take place in April and the other in November to
which scholars from Armenia will be invited. The spirit he conveyed was
quite consistent with the tradition of Turkish state policy: "if there
is a need in this country for a dialogue, then it is the Turkish state
that should direct it." Apparently he was unhappy that citizens are
empowering themselves and participating in such events without the
Turkish government's permission or foreknowledge, even if it was in
Germany.
German Police Protection
As a result of the propaganda campaign launched by Hürriyet, German
police authorities implemented protective measures within the conference
building. Some Turkish historians were given personal protection.
An alarming event did in fact occur on the last day of the conference
when some 10-12 Turks, clearly identified as MHP goons (Gray
Wolves),raided the conference building. Police quickly surrounded the
group, and with the help of members of the Association of Ataturkist
Ideals, the Turks were evicted from the building.
Everyone could hear members of the AAI shouting to the intruders "What
are you doing?" "You can't do such things here." "We barely secured
permission for you to keep a table for your publications."
Positive Aspects of the Conference
In spite of all this one should not conclude that the conference proved
useless. Despite the campaign of terror that filled the air the
conference yielded very good results. Important debates took place
attended by some very emotional moments. Some of the Turkish
participants openly declared "I beg forgiveness from the Armenians… on
account of the crimes perpetrated against them." In his closing speech
Ragip Zarakolu, publisher of books dealing with the Armenian Genocide,
and a prominent human rights activist in Turkey,declared:
"Nobody should regard the people who organized these offensive campaigns
as Turks. They do not represent the Turkish human being. In fact, we are
the real Turkish patriots, and we shall not permit them to again stain
our name, as had been done in history. We shall do everything possible
to retrieve and restore Armenian history and culture that was wiped out
from Anatolia."
For her part, Prof. Kürsat declared,"These assaults show that I will
have to work harder on this path of mine." And finally, Hadi Ulueng,
another Hürriyet columnist, in praising the conference wrote "Animals
befriend each other by smelling each other, human beings by talking to
each other…"
It is worth pondering why the Turkish state is engaged in such a
two-track treatment of the Armeno-Turkish dialogue, displaying on the
one hand a measure of civility ostensibly supporting it and on the other
hand vandalizing it through a campaign of terror.
Adanali
-Distinctions Between the Holocaust and the Armenian Experience-
1. Jews did not demand the dismemberment of the nations in which they had
lived. By contrast, the Ottoman Armenians openly agitated for a separate state
in lands in which they were numerically inferior. The Hunchak and Dashnak
revolutionary organizations which survive to this day were formed expressly to
agitate against the Ottoman Empire.
2. Jews did not kill their fellow citizens in the nations in which they had
lived. By contrast, the Ottoman Armenians committed massacres against local
Muslims with whom they had lived peacefully prior to World War I.
3. Jews did not openly join the ranks of their countries' enemies during the
course of World War II. By contrast, during World War I, Ottoman Armenians
openly and with pride committed mass treason, took up arms with the Russians,
traveled to Russia for training, and sported Russian uniforms. Others,
non-uniformed irregulars, operated against the Ottoman government from behind
the lines.
4. By solemn tribunal at Nuremburg the guilt of the perpetrators of the
Holocaust was proven and sentences were carried out in accordance with
agreed-upon procedures. By contrast, the Malta Tribunals, which were convened
by and composed of the World War I victors, exonerated those alleged to have
been responsible for the maladministration of the relocation policies.
Regardless, Armenian terrorists hunted down and assassinated several former
Ottoman officials they believed to have been responsible, and successor groups
continue to engage in anti-Turkish terrorism.
5. None of the perpetrators of the Holocaust were punished by the Germans
during the war; to the contrary, those who carried out The Final Solution were
commended by their leaders. By contrast, the Ottoman government pursued,
arrested, tried, and convicted numerous of its own officials and soldiers who
had erred in carrying out the Armenian relocation orders.
6. Jews have never worked to persecute Armenians. By contrast, Armenians
actively joined the Nazi regime and aided Hitler in carrying out The Final
Solution. Open Armenian-Nazi collaboration is evident in the activities of the
812th Armenian Battalion of [Nazi] Wehrmacht, commanded by Drastamat Kanayan
(a.k.a. "Dro"), and its successor, the Armenian Legion. Anti-Jewish, pro-Nazi
propaganda was published widely in the Armenian-language Hairenik daily and the
weekly journal, Armenian. B. Hitler Did Not Refer to the Armenians in Plotting
The Final Solution. The Infamous Quote is Fraudulent. Armenian American
attempts to link the Holocaust and the Armenian Experience as engendered by the
fraudulent quote, "Who remembers the Armenians?" Everything written to date has
attributed the alleged quote to a November 24, 1945 Times of London article,
"Nazi Germany's Road to War" The article's unnamed author cites the quote as
having been included in an address given by Hitler to his commanders-in-chief
on August 22, 1939 at Obersalzburg. The Times of London author claims the
speech was introduced as evidence during the November 23, 1945 session of the
Nuremberg Tribunal. The quote actually first appeared in a 1942 book by Louis
Lochner, the Associated Press's Berlin bureau chief during the war. Lochner,
like the Times of London author, never disclosed his source. Regardless, the
Nuremberg transcripts do not contain the alleged quote. In fact, the
transcripts demonstrate that the tribunal examined and then rejected Lochner's
third-hand version of Hitler's address. Instead, the tribunal entered into
evidence two official versions of the August 22, 1939 address found in captured
German military records quoting those who were present at Obersalzburg. These
bear document numbers US-29/789 PS and US-30/1014 PS. Neither document contains
any reference to Armenians. In fact, neither document refers to the Jews;
Hitler's address was an anti-Polish invective, delivered years before he
conceived The Final Solution.
All of the above can be verified by checking sources on the web or at your
local library. To give one proof that will cause hypocritical liars like
"unReal" to shut up, I am attaching the following:
Boghos Nubar Pasha was the leader of the Armenian delegation in attendance at
the Paris Peace Conference after World War I. In his letter, attached below,
to The Times of London, dated 30 January 1919, he openly acknowledges that it
was the Armenian contributions to the allied war effort which led to their
mistreatment by the Ottoman authorities.
&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&
To the Editor of the Times,
Sir, the name of Armenia is not on the list of the nations admitted to the
Peace Conference. Our sorrow and our disappointment are deep beyond expression.
Armenians naturally expected their demand for admission to the Conference to be
conceded, after all they had done for the common cause.
The unspeakable suffering and the dreadful losses that have befallen the
Armenians by reason of their faithfulness to the Allies are now fully known.
But I must emphasize the fact unhappily known to few, that ever since the
beginning of the war the Armenians fought by the side of the Allies on all
fronts. Adding our losses in the field to the greater losses through massacres
and deportations, we find that over a million out of a total Armenian
population of four million and a half have lost their lives in and through the
war. Armenia's tribute to death is thus undoubtedly heavier in proportion than
that of any other belligerent nation. For the Armenians have been belligerents
de facto, since they indignantly refused to side with Turkey.
Our volunteers fought in the French "Legion Entrangere" and covered themselves
with glory. In the Legion d'Orient they numbered over 5,000, and made up more
than half the French contingent in Syria and Palestine, which took part in the
decisive victory of General Allenby.
In the Caucasus, without mentioning the 150,000 Armenians in the Russian
armies, about 50,000 Armenian volunteers under Andranik, Nazarbekoff, and
others not only fought for four years for the cause of the Entente, but after
the breakdown of Russia they were the only forces in the Caucasus to resist the
advance of the Turks, whom they held in check until the armistice was signed.
Thus they helped the British forces in Mesopotamia by hindering the
Germano-Turks from sending their troops elsewhere.
These services have been acknowledged by the Allied Governments, as Lord Robert
Cecil recognized in the House of Commons.
In virtue of all these considerations the Armenian National Delegation asked
that the Armenian nation should be recognized as a belligerent. Had the
recognition been granted, we should now have been admitted, ipso facto, to the
Conference, to which even transatlantic States have found access, though having
merely broken off diplomatic relations with Germany, without the least
sacrifice on their part.
At the moment when the fate of Armenia is being decided at the Peace
Conference, it is my duty, as the head of the National Delegation which has no
tribute from which its voice can resound, to state once again, in the columns
of The Times, the important part played by the Armenians in this frightful war.
I wish strongly to urge that the Armenians, having of their own free will cast
their lot with the champions of right and justice, the victory of the Allies
over their common enemies has secured to them a right to independence.
Believe me, sir, yours very truthfully,
Boghos Nubar
Paris, January 27, 1919"
REAL
> More nonsense from un-real.
Prove to us how it is "nonsense". The article is talking about as the subject line
and subject matter (if you read it) about "Turkish Responses to the Conference in
Germany: Taner Akcam and other Turks Main Targets Friday, March 30, 2001.
Adanali
The article is nonsense since it relies on newspaper accounts and unidentified
police reports. I am posting documents that are verifiable-just like the ones
about the bogusness of the so-called Hitler quote.
So-now that you understand, give us a verifiable document about the Hitler
quote.
Cheers
Ismail Zekeriya
******************
REAL
Adanali wrote:
> Un-real;
Un-Adanali!
It seem the truth hurts you.
>
>
> The article is nonsense since it relies on newspaper accounts and unidentified
> police reports. I am posting documents that are verifiable-just like the ones
> about the bogusness of the so-called Hitler quote.
are these bogus too?
“I refer to those awful massacres. They are the greatest stain that has ever
disgraced our nation and race. They were entirely the work of Talat and Enver. I
heard some days before they began that they were intended. I went to Istanbul and
insisted on seeing Enver. I asked him if it was true that they intended to
recommence the massacres which had been our shame and disgrace under Abdul Hamid.
The only reply I could get from him was: 'It is decided. It is the
programme.’ ”
-Prince Abdul Mecid
Heir-Apparent to the Ottoman Throne, during an interview...
“Surely a few Armenians aided and abetted our enemy, and a few Armenian Deputies
committed crimes against the Turkish nation... it is incumbent upon a government to
pursue the guilty ones. Unfortunately, our wartime leaders, imbued with a spirit of
brigandage, carried out the law of deportation in a manner that could surpass the
proclivities of the most bloodthirsty bandits.
They decided to exterminate the Armenians, and they did exterminate them.”
-Mustafa Arif
Minister of Interior stated December 13, 1918
NEW-YORK TIMES
------------------------------------------------------------------------
TURKISH STATESMAN DENOUNCES ATROCITIES
October 10, 1915 (II-19:3,4)
Cherif Pasha Says Young Turks Long Planned to Exterminate the Armenian.
An arraignment of a Young Turks, or the Committee of Union and Progress,
as having for years plotted the extermination of the Armenian people, is
contained in a letter recently addressed by Mehmed Cherif Pasha to the
Editor of the Journal de Geneve. The views of this eminent exile should
doubtless be considered in the light of the fact that he was obliged to
fly from his native land because of his secession from the party now in
power in Turkey, but even his enemies-and that he has formidable ones is
evidenced by the nearly successful attempt made upon his life by Turkish
police agents in Paris about two years ago-must
admit that he has had excellent opportunities for observation of the Young
Turks policy, since he was prominent in their councils when they first
obtained power on the overthrow of the Abdul Hamid regime, and left their
ranks to build up the
Liberal opposition party only when he became convinced that their leaders
had no intention of carrying out the program of reform to which they were
pledged. He is the son of the late Said Pasha, who was one of the chief
advisers of Abdul Hamid
and the first Grand Visier under the new Constitution. His wife is
Princess Emanine, the daughter of Prince Halim, and he is the
brother-in-law of Prince Said Halim, the present Grand Visier. He,
himself, was at one time Turkish minister to Sweden.
After branding the Armenian atrocities perpetrated under the present
regime as a surpassing the savagery of Genghis Khan and Tamerlane, Cherif
Pasha continues: "To be sure, the state of mind of the Unionists was not
revealed to the civilized world until they had openly taken sides with
Germany; but for more than six years I have been at exposing them in the
Mecheroutiette (his newspaper, published first in Constantinople and then
in Paris) and indifferent journals and reviews, warning France and England
of the plot against them and against certain nationalities within the
Ottoman borders, notably the Armenians, that was being hatched. "If there
is a race which has been closely connected with the Turks by its fidelity,
by its services to the country, by the statesman and functionaries of
talent it has furnished, by the intelligence which is manifesting in all
domains-commerce, industry, science, and the arts-it is certainly the
Armenian. " Cherif Pasha then enumerates some of the contributions which
Armenian have made to Turkish civilization, including the introduction of
printing and the drama, and gives credit to an Armenian, Odian Effendi,
for having collaborated with Midhat Pasha in framing the Ottoman
Constitution, and he lays stress upon their fine qualities as agitators
against the despotisms of Turkey and Persia-qualities, one suspects which
have not highly recommended them to the autocratic "reformers" of the
Young Turk regime. And he continues: "Alas! at the thought that a people
so gifted, which has served as the fructifying soil for the renovation of
the Ottoman Empire, is on the point of disappearing from history-not
enslaved, as were the Jews by the Assyrians, but annihilated-even the most
hardened heart must bleed: and I desire, through the medium of your
estimable journal, to express to this race which is being a assassinated
my anger toward the butchers and my immense pity for the victim's.
"Having fulfilled this pious duty, let me make some exceptions relating
not to the unhappy Armenian nation but to certain individual Armenians and
some propagandist groups who have for the last six years so maladroitly
constituted themselves the
defenders and apologists of this Committee of Union and Progress, the
broader of all their present sufferings. How often have I warned them
against the bad faith of the unionists, the perversity of whose black
souls I knew only too well! Besides, the massacres of Adana, provoked by
the Union's orders, to have brought them to a sense of the real state of
affairs. Some of them by a wrong appreciation of their interest, others
influenced by political alliances of an evil sort-like that poor
Constantinople deputy, Zohrab Effendi, who has expiated his errors on the
scaffold-all the Armenian political leaders, or almost all, by identifying
themselves with the political fortune of the Union, have compromised,
instead of serving their national cause.
"If, instead of enrolling themselves under the banner of that baneful and
treacherous association, they had ranged themselves openly beside the true
liberals who had long been pointing out the danger of their course, even
at peril of their lives, they would not only have remained true to their
principles, but they would also have spared their unfortunate brethren the
persecutions they suffered before the war and their whole nation the
prospect of an extermination unique in the annals of history."
-----
"In its attempt to carry out the purpose to resolve the Armenian question by
the destruction of the Armenian race, the Turkish government has refused to
be deterred neither by our representations, nor by those of the American
Embassy, nor by the delegate of the Pope, nor by the threats of the Allied
Powers, nor in deference to the public opinion of the West representing
one-half of the world."
-Count Wolf-Metternich
German Ambassador to the Ottoman Empire
July 10, 1916, cable to the German Chancellor
"The massacres are the result of a policy which, as far as can be
ascertained, has been entertained for some considerable time by the gang of
unscrupulous adventurers who are now in possession of the Government of the
Turkish Empire. They hesitated to put it in practice until they thought the
favorable moment had come, and that moment seems to have arrived about the
month of April."
-British Viscount James Bryce
October 6, 1915 speech.
Theodore Roosevelt
President of the United States (1901-09)
...So far from "being of assistance to the Allied cause by keeping on
nominal terms of friendliness with Bulgaria and Turkey," I am convinced we
are of the very greatest damage to the Allied cause by so doing. Moreover, I
feel that we are guilty of a peculiarly odious form of hypocrisy when we
profess friendship for Armenia and the downtrodden races of Turkey, but
don't go to war with Turkey. To allow the Turks to massacre the Armenians
and then solicit permission to help the survivors, and then to allege the
fact that we are helping the survivors as a reason why we should not follow
the only policy that will permanently put a stop to such massacres is both
foolish and odious.
I have a most interesting letter on the subject from Einstein, formerly with
out Embassy in Turkey. I will send it to you by George Perkins. Some
suffering would be caused if we went to war with Turkey, just as some
suffering was caused when we went to war with Germany. But the Americans now
would suffer only as the English and French suffered three years ago, when
their nations were doing their duty, and ours was shirking its duty. We have
no business to expect the allies to do the fighting which alone will
accomplish anything permanent while we play the utterly ignoble part of
being neutral and hoping that somehow or other we can thereby both save our
own skins and also accomplish something. The arguments advanced against our
going to war with Turkey are on a par with those formerly advanced against
our going to war with Germany and then with Austria; only they are not quite
as good. The Armenian horror is an accomplished fact. Its occurrence was
largely due to the policy of pacifism this nation has followed for the last
four years. The presence of our missionaries, and our failure to go to war,
did not prevent the Turks from massacring between half a million and a
million Armenians, Syrians, Greeks and Jews — the overwhelmingly majority
being Armenians. Our declaration of war now will certainly not do one
one-hundredth part of the damage already done by our failure to go to war in
the past; and it will enable us to render service of permanent value for the
future, and incidentally to take another step in regaining our self-respect.
We should go to war because not to do so is really to show bad faith towards
our allies, and to help Germany, because the Armenian massacre was the
greatest crime of the war, and failure to act against Turkey is to condone
it; because the failure to deal radically with the Turkish horror means that
all talk of guaranteeing the future peace of the world is mischievous
nonsense; and because when we now refuse to war with Turkey we show that our
announcement that we meant "to make the world safe for democracy" was
insincere claptrap.
>
>
> So-now that you understand, give us a verifiable document about the Hitler
> quote.
>
> Cheers
>
> Ismail Zekeriya
As you yourself stated:
> Neither document contains any reference to Armenians. In
> fact, neither document refers to the Jews; Hitler's address was an anti-Polish
> invective, delivered years before he conceived The Final Solution.
so you are in effect saying the jewish holocaust never happened eithe
Crimes so immense - Clarke Thomas, Pittsburgh Post-Gazette - Wednesday, April 11,
2001
Turkey's 1915 genocide against Armenians warrants recognition
The Holocaust with 6 million Jewish victims is well known. But how many people
nowadays know about the genocide of 1.5
to 2 million Armenians in Turkey in 1915?
And who cares 86 years later? That was precisely the point of a symposium,
"Indifference: Remembering the Armenian
Genocide and the Holocaust," held last Wednesday at the Pittsburgh Theological
Seminary. The Armenian genocide inflicted,
directly or indirectly, by the Sultan, the Turkish ruler at the time, was one of
the early 20th century examples of a sovereign
state acting against its own population with a planned annihilation.
I found numerous lessons for today from this symposium held 1,700 years after the
Armenian tribe accepted Christianity, a
point made by seminary president Carnegie Samuel Calian, himself of Armenian
heritage. Unfortunately, we have seen the
same horror later in Nazi Germany, and more recently in Cambodia, in Bosnia, in
Sudan and in Rwanda. On Aug. 22, 1939,
Adolf Hitler declared, "I have ordered my death units to exterminate without mercy
or pity men, women and children belonging
to the Polish-speaking race. It is only in this manner that we can acquire the
vital territory which we need. After all, who
remembers today the extermination of the Armenians?" Therefore, the Armenian story
is of relevance today.
First, praise to organizations in Pittsburgh's Jewish community for helping to
sponsor the symposium. So well has the Holocaust
story been told that some worry that the implication is that no other group ever
suffered anything catastrophic. Second, both
these organizations and the Presbyterian seminary recognized their common
"Abrahamic roots" to cross religious barriers to
include two frightful examples of a planned annihilation.
This collaboration also allowed a comparison of the aftermath of the two horrors.
The Germans - albeit at first under Allied
occupation - have faced up to their guilt, including reaching out to Israel. The
Turks, even though the Sultanate is long gone,
never have. Even though losers in World War I, Turkey was not punished because it
was seen as a bulwark against the
communists who had just taken over Russia.
Moreover, as Richard Hovannisian outlined, to this day the Turkish government
brings economic and political pressures against
any country that so much as mentions the 1915 genocide. Hovannisian, professor of
Armenian and Near Eastern History at
UCLA, cited retaliations against France for its parliament passing a one-sentence
resolution on the subject, even though it
didn't mention Turkey or the date. Similarly, a resolution in Congress was quashed
by the Clinton administration in the face of
Turkish pressure.
Why does a Turkish recognition of the massacre matter? Because for the matter to be
put to rest, the victimizers need to admit
their part so that the victims know that their suffering is properly acknowledged.
Otherwise, Hovannisian said, we are putting
memory to sleep, and without memory, facts vanish. And in the scholar's words, lack
of acknowledgment is a barrier to the
future.
As for the plight of the Armenians, repression still goes on in Turkey, as I have
learned from reading "From the Holy Mountain:
A Journey Among the Christians of the Middle East." In it a Scotsman, William
Dalrymple, describes visiting monasteries and
churches, both those alive and abandoned, in Turkey, Syria, Lebanon, Israel and
Egypt.
The import of his book is that Christianity and its communities in those countries
are under constant pressure, with some close
to dying out altogether because of out-migration. Turkey is a particularly
egregious example as the Armenian remnant there is
caught in the conflict between the Turkish army and Kurd separatists. The latter
were among the victimizers of the Armenians in
1915 and are now the victims, but still hostile to the Armenians in their midst.
Other than the case of Turkey's secular government, most of the pressure on
Christians in the Middle East is coming from
Islamic fundamentalists, an anomaly because throughout the centuries Islam was much
more tolerant of other religions than, say,
the Christians. Palestinian Christians, of course, are caught in the struggle
between their people and Israel. And the Dalrymple
book underscores that Jewish fundamentalists are seeking real estate inroads into
the Armenian Quarter in Jerusalem,
undermining that faith's historic home there.
What to make of all of this? First, it underscores all over again the importance of
proper treatment of minorities, whether for
reasons of religion, color, race or, for that matter, gender preference. After all,
Hitler's priorities for extinction not only were the
Jews, gypsies and Slavs, but also homosexuals.
Second, it poses the continuing difficulty of how a group or a faith can preserve
memory and the remembrance of sacrifice and
still go on. If grudges are never settled, when can there ever be a resolution for
moving ahead? For all its many shortcomings,
the people of the United States for the most part have been able to accomplish
that. Of course, as was pointed out in the
Theological Seminary symposium, we still haven't completely answered for our
genocidal assaults on some American Indian
tribes.
Finally, I am more than ever convinced of the need to bolster the international
community as it seeks to bring to book those
involved in crimes against humanity. In that regard, I was particularly struck by a
statement by Vicken Aykazian of Washington,
D.C., bishop of the Armenian Diocese of America, that if the perpetrators of the
Armenian genocide of 1915 had been
punished, it would have prevented the Holocaust a quarter-century later.
Adanali
My dear hypocrite, nobody ever denied that the Armenians got massacred. There
was no genocide, that is all. It seems that you do not even know the meaning of
the term as Lemkin coined it. I have posted a reference in another message-go
and read it. There is no proof of a government orchestrated killing campaign
that encompasses all Armenians. The Armenians themselves know this and keep
telling us that the orders were verbal. Yep-that is also why they forged the
Andonian telegrams. Do you even know what those are? I guess not, you are only
a bewildered greek trying to deal with issues more complicated than your
caliber permits. Things like this do happen though-see the Kenya episode.
However, the issue is still the Hitler quote. Let me ask you again; did Hitler
say this so-called sentence or not? If you answer yes, show us some proof. Do
not feel bad if you can not find any proof-there is none.
You really should learn what proof is.
Cheers
Ismail Zekeriya
REAL
Adanali wrote:
> Un-real:
>
> My dear hypocrite, nobody ever denied that the Armenians got massacred. There
> was no genocide, that is all. It seems that you do not even know the meaning of
> the term as Lemkin coined it.
Look at what Lemkin SAID:
Dr. Raphael Lemkin who coined the word "genocide" in 1943. A Polish Jew whose
parents were killed in the Holocaust, Lemkin became the primary advocate for the
creation of the 1948 U.N. Genocide Convention.
http://www.preventgenocide.org/lemkin/index.htm
Here are some of his words where he specificically cites the armenians.
"In this way a mass obliteration of nationhoods had been planned throughout
occupied Europe. The Nazi leaders had stated very bluntly their intent to wipe out
the Poles, the Russians; to destroy demographically and culturally the French
element in Alsace-Lorraine, the Slavonians in Carniola and Carinthia. They almost
achieved their goal in exterminating the Jews and Gypsies in Europe. Obviously,
the German experience is the most striking and the most deliberate and thorough,
but history has provided us with other examples of the destruction of entire
nations, and ethnic and religious groups. There are, for example, the destruction
of Carthage; that of religious groups in the wars of Islam and the Crusades; the
massacres of the Albigenses and the Waldenses; and more recently, the massacre
of the Armenians."
------
"By its very legal, moral and humanitarian nature, it must be considered an
international crime. The conscience of mankind has been shocked by this type of
mass barbarity. There have been many instances of states expressing their concern
about another state's treatment of its citizens. The United States rebuked the
government of Czarist Russia as well as that of Rumania for the ghastly pogroms
they instigated or tolerated. There was also diplomatic action in behalf of the
Greeks and Armenians when they were being massacred by the Turks.
> I have posted a reference in another message-go
> and read it. There is no proof of a government orchestrated killing campaign
> that encompasses all Armenians. The Armenians themselves know this and keep
> telling us that the orders were verbal. Yep-that is also why they forged the
> Andonian telegrams. Do you even know what those are? I guess not, you are only
> a bewildered greek trying to deal with issues more complicated than your
> caliber permits. Things like this do happen though-see the Kenya episode.
>
Like i have said before, you make many assumptions about me and other things, the
article mentions what it mentions. i don't see the article mentioning Kenya. The
article mentions the quote.
>
> However, the issue is still the Hitler quote. Let me ask you again; did Hitler
> say this so-called sentence or not? If you answer yes, show us some proof. Do
> not feel bad if you can not find any proof-there is none.
>
The issue is the armenian genocide as the ARTICLE deals with.
>
> You really should learn what proof is.
Are these quotes all wrong too?
NEW-YORK TIMES
TURKISH STATESMAN DENOUNCES ATROCITIES
-----
is this too?
Founder of the modern Turkish Republic in 1923 and revered throughout Turkey, in an
interview published on
August 1, 1926 in The Los Angeles Examiner, talking about former Young Turks in his
country...
These left-overs from the former Young Turk Party, who should have been made
to account for the millions of
our Christian subjects who were ruthlessly driven en masse, from their homes
and massacred, have been restive
under the Republican rule.
Yossi Beilin
Israeli Deputy Foreign Minister. April 27, 1994 on the floor of the Knesset in
response to a TV interview of the
Turkish Ambassador
It was not war. It was most certainly massacre and genocide, something the
world must remember... We will
always reject any attempt to erase its record, even for some political
advantage.
Various Turkish Quotes, beginning with multiple quotes from the 3 rulers
of wartime Turkey, Cemal Pasha, Enver Pasha and Talat Pasha.
Enver Pasha
One of the triumvirate rulers publicly declared on 19 May 1916...
The Ottoman Empire should be cleaned up of the Armenians and the Lebanese. We
have destroyed the former
by the sword, we shall destroy the latter through starvation.
In reply to US Ambassador Morgenthau who was deploring the massacres against
Armenians and attributing them
to irresponsible subalterns and underlings in the distant provinces, Enver's reply
was...
You are greatly mistaken. We have this country absolutely under our control. I
have no desire to shift the blame
onto our underlings and I am entirely willing to accept the responsibility
myself for everything that has taken place.
Talat Pasha
In a conversation with Dr. Mordtmann of the German Embassy in June 1915...
Turkey is taking advantage of the war in order to thoroughly liquidate
(grundlich aufzaumen) its internal foes, i.e.,
the indigenous Christians, without being thereby disturbed by foreign
intervention.
After the German Ambassador persistently brought up the Armenian question in 1918,
Talat said "with a smile"...
What on earth do you want? The question is settled. There are no more
Armenians.
Cemal Pasha
To a German officer upon seeing the deportations in Mamure said...
I am ashamed of my nation (Ich schame mich fur meine Nation)
Cemal
Minister of the Interior of Turkey publicly declared on March 15 that on the basis
of computations undertaken by
Ministry Experts...
800,000 Armenian deportees were actually killed...by holding the guilty
accountable the government is intent on
cleansing the bloody past.
Prince Abdul Mecid
Heir-Apparent to the Ottoman Throne, during an interview...
I refer to those awful massacres. They are the greatest stain that has ever
disgraced our nation and race. They
were entirely the work of Talat and Enver. I heard some days before they began
that they were intended. I went
to Istanbul and insisted on seeing Enver. I asked him if it was true that they
intended to recommence the
massacres which had been our shame and disgrace under Abdul Hamid. The only
reply I could get from him was:
'It is decided. It is the program.'
Grand Vezir Damad Ferid Pasha
He described the treatment of the Armenians as...
A crime that drew the revulsion of the entire humankind.
Mustafa Arif
Minister of Interior stated on 13 December 1918...
Surely a few Armenians aided and abetted our enemy, and a few Armenian
Deputies committed crimes against
the Turkish nation... it is incumbent upon a government to pursue the guilty
ones. Unfortunately, our wartime
leaders, imbued with a spirit of brigandage, carried out the law of
deportation in a manner that could surpass the
proclivities of the most bloodthirsty bandits. They decided to exterminate the
Armenians, and they did exterminate
them.
Henry Morgenthau, Sr.
U.S. Ambassador to the Ottoman Empire Ambassador Morgenthau's Story, 1919
When the Turkish authorities gave the orders for these deportations, they were
merely giving the death warrant to
a whole race; they understood this well, and, in their conversations with me,
they made no particular attempt to
conceal the fact. . . . I am confident that the whole history of the human
race contains no such horrible episode as
this. The great massacres and persecutions of the past seem almost
insignificant when compared to the sufferings
of the Armenian race in 1915.
British Viscount James Bryce
October 6, 1915, speech
The massacres are the result of a policy which, as far as can be ascertained,
has been entertained for some
considerable time by the gang of unscrupulous adventurers who are now in
possession of the Government of the
Turkish Empire. They hesitated to put it in practice until they thought the
favorable moment had come, and that
moment seems to have arrived about the month of April.
Count Wolff-Metternich
German Ambassador to the Ottoman Empire July 10, 1916, cable to the German
Chancellor
In its attempt to carry out its purpose to resolve the Armenian question by
the destruction of the Armenian race,
the Turkish government has refused to be deterred neither by our
representations, nor by those of the American
Embassy, nor by the delegate of the Pope, nor by the threats of the Allied
Powers, nor in deference to the public
opinion of the West representing one-half of the world.
Theodore Roosevelt
May 11, 1918, letter to Cleveland Hoadley Dodge
. . . the Armenian massacre was the greatest crime of the war, and the failure
to act against Turkey is to condone
it . . . the failure to deal radically with the Turkish horror means that all
talk of guaranteeing the future peace of the
world is mischievous nonsense.
Adanali
let us indeed look at what Lemkin said:
"New conceptions require new terms. By "genocide" we mean the destruction of a
nation or of an ethnic group. This new word, coined by the author to denote an
old practice in its modern development, is made from the ancient Greek word
genos (race, tribe) and the Latin cide (killing), thus corresponding in its
formation to such words a tyrannicide, homicide [sic], infanticide, etc.
Generally speaking, genocide does not necessarily mean the immediate
destruction of a nation, except when accomplished by mass killings of all
members of a nation. It is intended rather to signify a coordinated plan of
different actions aiming at the destruction of essential foundations of the
life of national groups, with the aim of annihilating the groups themselves.
The objectives of such a plan would be disintegration of the political and
social institutions, of culture, language, national feelings, religion, and the
economic existence of national groups, and the destruction of the personal
security, liberty, health, dignity, and even the lives of the individuals
belonging to such groups. Genocide is directed against the national group as an
entity, and the actions involved are directed against the individuals, not in
their individual capacity, but as members of the national group" (Lemkin (1944,
p. 79).
Now, the armenians in many cities, including Istanbul, were left alone, were
they not? How does that fit in with the above un-real?
You must compare what happend to the armenians to what happened to the Jews-the
following quote is from a site that regards the armenian massacres as genocide,
along with everthing else-
http://www2.hawaii.edu/~rummel/HOLO.PAPER.HTM#8
"In no way, however, does listing these genocides or lamenting over their toll
demean the importance, horror, and uniqueness of the Holocaust. For of all
these genocides, the Holocaust is the only one in which a regime, as a matter
of public policy, aimed to exterminate all members of a specific religious
group--the Jews--root and branch, where ever they could be found, whether in
Germany or some occupied country, and the Nazis even prepared plans to kill
them all in countries not yet defeated, such as in Great Britain. In this sense
the Holocaust is unparalleled among genocides".
This is the holocaust fellow-now show us anything like that in the Ottoman
treatment of those who betrayed it "for their manifest destiny" (NY Times,
1914-souce cited). You pitiful rabble demean the term "genocide".
Cheers
Ismail Zekeriya
Adanali
Lemkin invented the term genocide for the Jewish Shoah. It has very little to
do with the armenians despite all your portestations.
Lemkin knew of the Armenian massacres-and called them massacres, not genocide.
His first application to the legal council of the "League of Nations" to
outlaw acts of "Barbarism and vandalism" in 1933 got rejected. It seems that
nobody gave a damn about armenians then.
The term genocide was first used by Lemkin in his book "Axis Rule in Occupied
Europa". This book is based on the Nazis and their treatment of the Jews and
other peoples of Europa.
It might interest you to know that in all the collected files of Lemkin, there
is not a single file of the armenian experience-see
http://huc.edu/aja/Lemkin.htm
So-you make a mighty case out of two sentences amidst numerous books written by
Lemkin. The armenians were marginal to his case-with reason.
With patience
Ismail Zekeriya
REAL
Adanali wrote:
> un-real:
>
the name calling is quite disturbing and very immature.
>
> Lemkin invented the term genocide for the Jewish Shoah. It has very little to
> do with the armenians despite all your portestations.
>
You are obviosuly having a comprehention problem!
READ IT again:
>
> Lemkin knew of the Armenian massacres-and called them massacres, not genocide.
> His first application to the legal council of the "League of Nations" to
> outlaw acts of "Barbarism and vandalism" in 1933 got rejected. It seems that
> nobody gave a damn about armenians then.
>
When he talks about the "mass obliteration of nationhoods" he mentions Jews and
Gypsies and Europe as well as the Armenians.. READ IT!
>
> The term genocide was first used by Lemkin in his book "Axis Rule in Occupied
> Europa". This book is based on the Nazis and their treatment of the Jews and
> other peoples of Europa.
what do you think "mass obliteration of nationhoods" is? my does he cite Jews,
Gypsies, Armenians? or is that not genocide either?
>
>
> It might interest you to know that in all the collected files of Lemkin, there
> is not a single file of the armenian experience-see
> http://huc.edu/aja/Lemkin.htm
>
> So-you make a mighty case out of two sentences amidst numerous books written by
> Lemkin. The armenians were marginal to his case-with reason.
>
> With patience
>
> Ismail Zekeriya
stop diverting all the time the passage of what he said is clear to all.
Adanali
I am going to educate you about Lemkin. It may take a long time but by and by
you will learn what he based the term "Genocide" on. This will also serve to
debunk this myth that the term "genocide" was first invented for armenians that
some half-educated idiots post on the net every so often: See for example-
http://www.pipeline.com/~rgibson/fisk.html
"Indeed, the very word "genocide" was invented
for the Armenians in 1944 -- by a Polish-born Jew, Raphael Lemkin"
OK-now to work. Here is an excellent site about Lemkin and his works:
http://www.preventgenocide.org/lemkin/#guide
If one reads it, one sees that Lemkin 5 major works in which he tried to define
concepts similar to genocide or genocide. Let us take them one by one and see
who he references in them:
1-"Acts Constituting a General (Transnational) Danger Considered as Offences
Against the Law of Nations / Additional explications to the Special Report
presented to the 5th Conference for the Unification of Penal Law in Madrid"
(14 -20 October 1933)
(a-http://www.preventgenocide.org/lemkin/madrid1933-english.htm)
This is Lemkin's first work on trying to make such crimes against humanity. It
does not reference armenians. It has 3232 words and not one of them is
armenian, or has anything to do with armenia. While Lemkin might have known
about the armenian experience, it did not move him enough to put it in his
first petition in 1933.
2-"Axis Rule in Occupied Europe: Laws of Occupation - Analysis of Goverment -
Proposals for Redress, Washington, D.C.: Carnegie Endowment for International
Peace, 1944" (http://www.preventgenocide.org/lemkin/AxisRule1944-1.htm)
This is a 670 page book in which the word "genocide" is defined for the first
time in chapter IX. It does not contain the words armenia or armenians. It
does, however, describe how he came up with the word "genocide":
"....Hitler was right. The crime of the Reich in wantonly and deliberately
wiping out whole peoples is not utterly new in the world. It is only new in the
civilized world as we have come to think of it. It is so new in the traditions
of civilized man that he has no name for it.
It is for this reason that I took the liberty of inventing the word,
"genocide." The term is from the Greek word genes meaning tribe or race and the
Latin cide meaning killing. Genocide tragically enough must take its place in
the dictionary of the future beside other tragic words like homicide and
infanticide. ..."
&&&&&&&&&&&&&
Thus, the word was clearly invented for the Nazis. Now, a Polish Jew invented
the word genocide for the Shoah-for what his people suffered at the hands of
the Nazis. One wonders why the armenians did no such thing for all the
persecution they claim they suffered! Chapter IX in this book, in three
sections, contains 8328 words. Not one of them is armenian and not one
sentence has anything to do with armenia, armenians or their experience.
3-"Genocide - A Modern Crime" FREE WORLD (New York), Vol. 9, No. 4, (April
1945), p. 39-43
(http://www.preventgenocide.org/lemkin/freeworld1945.htm)
This article contains the definition of genocide and a good discussion. It has
3086 word and no mention of armenians.
4-"Genocide" American Scholar, Vol. 15, No. 2 (April 1946), p. 227-230
(http://www.preventgenocide.org/lemkin/americanscholar1946.htm)
This article has 2808 words and contains 2 references to armenians-both of
which un-real has been parroting without putting into context. I am appending
them for completeness:
a-"Obviously, the German experience is the most striking and the most
deliberate and thorough, but history has provided us with other examples of the
destruction of entire nations, and ethnic and religious groups. There are, for
example, the destruction of Carthage; that of religious groups in the wars of
Islam and the Crusades; the massacres of the Albigenses and the Waldenses; and
more recently, the massacre of the Armenians."
b-"By its very legal, moral and humanitarian nature, it must be considered an
international crime. The conscience of mankind has been shocked by this type of
mass barbarity. There have been many instances of states expressing their
concern about another state's treatment of its citizens. The United States
rebuked the government of Czarist Russia as well as that of Rumania for the
ghastly pogroms they instigated or tolerated. There was also diplomatic action
in behalf of the Greeks and Armenians when they were being massacred by the
Turks. States have even entered into international treaties by which they
assumed specific obligations in the treatment of their own nationals. We may,
in this respect, refer to the treaty entered into between the United States and
Spain in 1898, in which the free exercise of religion was assured by the United
States to the inhabitants of the territories which were ceded to her".
You can see that Lemkin thinks bad things happened to the armenians but does
not consider them equal to the Shoah.
5-"Genocide as a Crime under International Law" American Journal of
International Law (1947) Volume 41(1):145-151.
(http://www.preventgenocide.org/lemkin/ASIL1947.htm)
This article has 3365 words and treats armenians once in a footnote:
" Although some humanitarian intervention stigmatized religious persecutions by
the use of not-quite-legal terms, it has always been felt that such
interventions are based essentially on considerations of international
morality,. Compare to this respect the communication from Secretary of State
Hay to Mr. Wilson, United States Minister to Romania, on July 17, 1902, in
connection with the persecution of Romanian Jews: "This government cannot be a
tacit party to such an international wrong" (Moore, Digest, Vol. VI, p. 364),
but also instructions from Mr. Lansing to Ambassador Morgenthau to use his good
offices for the "amelioration of conditions of the Armenians, informing Turkish
Government that this persecution is destroying the feeling of good will which
the people of the United States have always hold toward Turkey" (Foreign
Relations, 19l5, Supplement, p. 988). "
Finally, I am appending the list of all of Lemkin's files from his collected
documents repository: (http://huc.edu/aja/Lemkin.htm)
3 Albigensians
4 Alva; The Netherlands
5 Assyria
6 Ceylon [16th Century]
7 Chios [Turkish Perscutions]
8 French in Sicily [ca. 1282]
9 Germans In Africa
10 Greece [Ottoman Empire]
11 Greece [1948-1950]
12 Hereros
13 Huguenots
14 Hungary [U.N. Report]
7 1 Incas
2 International Collective Responsibility for Survival of
National Racial, Religious and Ethnical Groups
3 Iraq Under Hulagu [13th Century]
4 Japan [Persecution of Catholics in 16th-17th Centuries]
5 Lusatians
6 Mongols
7 Moravia Under the Mongols
8 Mormons
9 Moors and Moriscos
10 Nagas
11 Nationalism
12 Nazi Genocide [Untitled Manuscript]
13 Nuremburg
14 Teutonic Knights and Prussian Pagans
15 Unidentified
Try and find one reference to the armenians. There is no such file.
In conclusion, the armenians were a footnote in the work of Lemkin, nothing
more. Out of hudreds of pages, thousands of sentences, tens-of-thousands of
words, we have three mentions of armenians, with one a footnote. No amount of
delusional posting by demagogues, propogandists or other rabble will change
this.
With patience
Ismail Zekeriya Adanali
REAL
> Un-real:
>
> I am going to educate you about Lemkin.
You will never be able to change this:
Dr. Raphael Lemkin who coined the word "genocide" in 1943. A Polish Jew whose
parents were killed in the Holocaust, Lemkin became the primary advocate for the
creation of the 1948 U.N. Genocide Convention.
http://www.preventgenocide.org/lemkin/index.htm
Here are some of his words where he specificically cites the armenians.
"In this way a mass obliteration of nationhoods had been planned throughout
occupied Europe. The Nazi leaders had stated very bluntly their intent to wipe out
the Poles, the Russians; to destroy demographically and culturally the French
element in Alsace-Lorraine, the Slavonians in Carniola and Carinthia. They almost
achieved their goal in exterminating the Jews and Gypsies in Europe. Obviously,
the German experience is the most striking and the most deliberate and thorough,
but history has provided us with other examples of the destruction of entire
nations, and ethnic and religious groups. There are, for example, the destruction
of Carthage; that of religious groups in the wars of Islam and the Crusades; the
massacres of the Albigenses and the Waldenses; and more recently, the massacre
of the Armenians."
------
Adanali
The oath one takes on the witness stand states "The truth, the whole truth and
nothing but the truth". You are lying through omission and I am exposing this
to all who reads this thread. In my analysis fo Lemkin below (and it is my
analysis, my dear Wormwood, not a grab from some site) I have included the few
quotes you have posted repeatedly along with everything else. See how the whole
truth makes your position so ridiculous?
"armenian References in the Seminal Works of Lemkin"
i) Site about Lemkin and his works:
http://www.preventgenocide.org/lemkin/#guide
a-"Obviously, the German experience is the most striking and the most
deliberate and thorough, but history has provided us with other examples of the
destruction of entire nations, and ethnic and religious groups. There are, for
example, the destruction of Carthage; that of religious groups in the wars of
Islam and the Crusades; the massacres of the Albigenses and the Waldenses; and
more recently, the massacre of the Armenians."
b-"By its very legal, moral and humanitarian nature, it must be considered an
international crime. The conscience of mankind has been shocked by this type of
mass barbarity. There have been many instances of states expressing their
concern about another state's treatment of its citizens. The United States
rebuked the government of Czarist Russia as well as that of Rumania for the
ghastly pogroms they instigated or tolerated. There was also diplomatic action
in behalf of the Greeks and Armenians when they were being massacred by the
Turks. States have even entered into international treaties by which they
assumed specific obligations in the treatment of their own nationals. We may,
in this respect, refer to the treaty entered into between the United States and
Spain in 1898, in which the free exercise of religion was assured by the United
States to the inhabitants of the territories which were ceded to her".
5-"Genocide as a Crime under International Law" American Journal of
In conclusion, the armenians were a footnote in the work of Lemkin, nothing
more. No amount of delusional posting by demagogues, propogandists will change
this.
And unreal will feebly post a few quotes and ignore everything else-since this
is the surest way to self delusion.
Ismail Zekeriya
REAL
Dr. Raphael Lemkin who coined the word "genocide" in 1943. A Polish Jew whose
parents were killed in the Holocaust, Lemkin became the primary advocate for the
creation of the 1948 U.N. Genocide Convention.
http://www.preventgenocide.org/lemkin/index.htm
Here are some of his words where he specificically cites the armenians.
"In this way a mass obliteration of nationhoods had been planned throughout
occupied Europe. The Nazi leaders had stated very bluntly their intent to wipe out
the Poles, the Russians; to destroy demographically and culturally the French
element in Alsace-Lorraine, the Slavonians in Carniola and Carinthia. They almost
achieved their goal in exterminating the Jews and Gypsies in Europe. Obviously,
the German experience is the most striking and the most deliberate and thorough,
but history has provided us with other examples of the destruction of entire
nations, and ethnic and religious groups. There are, for example, the destruction
of Carthage; that of religious groups in the wars of Islam and the Crusades; the
massacres of the Albigenses and the Waldenses; and more recently, the massacre
of the Armenians."
------
Adanali
I have no interest in changing what you post about Lemkin. In fact I posted the
same but in its entirety and. I put it into context, that is all. Two comments
and one footnote ..Out of all of Lemkin's seminal work, that is his entire
stock of armenian quotes... Wow, how important must he have considered these
guys. His papers do not even have an armenian folder.....You can not find an
answer, can you?. Now grow up and aplogize will you?
With infinite patience
Ismail Zekeriya
REAL
Adanali
I am going to educate you about Lemkin. It may take a long time but by and by
you will learn what he based the term "Genocide" on. This will also serve to
debunk this myth that the term "genocide" was first invented for armenians that
some half-educated idiots post on the net every so often: See for example-
http://www.pipeline.com/~rgibson/fisk.html
"Indeed, the very word "genocide" was invented
for the Armenians in 1944 -- by a Polish-born Jew, Raphael Lemkin"
OK-now to work. Here is an excellent site about Lemkin and his works:
http://www.preventgenocide.org/lemkin/#guide
a-"Obviously, the German experience is the most striking and the most
deliberate and thorough, but history has provided us with other examples of the
destruction of entire nations, and ethnic and religious groups. There are, for
example, the destruction of Carthage; that of religious groups in the wars of
Islam and the Crusades; the massacres of the Albigenses and the Waldenses; and
more recently, the massacre of the Armenians."
b-"By its very legal, moral and humanitarian nature, it must be considered an
international crime. The conscience of mankind has been shocked by this type of
mass barbarity. There have been many instances of states expressing their
concern about another state's treatment of its citizens. The United States
rebuked the government of Czarist Russia as well as that of Rumania for the
ghastly pogroms they instigated or tolerated. There was also diplomatic action
in behalf of the Greeks and Armenians when they were being massacred by the
more. No amount of delusional posting by demagogues, propogandists or other
rabble will change this.
REAL
Adanali wrote:
> Un-real:
>
> I am going to educate you about Lemkin.
Yet you can't deny what he said, and no it's not unreal.
Raphael Lemkin who coined the word "genocide" in 1943. A Polish Jew whose
parents were killed in the Holocaust, Lemkin became the primary advocate for the
creation of the 1948 U.N. Genocide Convention.
http://www.preventgenocide.org/lemkin/index.htm
Here are some of his words where he specificically cites the armenians.
"In this way a mass obliteration of nationhoods had been planned throughout
occupied Europe. The Nazi leaders had stated very bluntly their intent to wipe out
the Poles, the Russians; to destroy demographically and culturally the French
element in Alsace-Lorraine, the Slavonians in Carniola and Carinthia. They almost
achieved their goal in exterminating the Jews and Gypsies in Europe. Obviously,
the German experience is the most striking and the most deliberate and thorough,
but history has provided us with other examples of the destruction of entire
nations, and ethnic and religious groups. There are, for example, the destruction
of Carthage; that of religious groups in the wars of Islam and the Crusades; the
massacres of the Albigenses and the Waldenses; and more recently, the massacre
of the Armenians."
------
Ja...@webtv.net
blah, and then some more blah, blah , blah, with special turkish
bullshit herb, to spice up his usual blah , blah. hey Fakir, don't you
know it by now, everybody knows you and the rest of your kinman on this
NG are confirmed liars, nothing you people say is ever been confirmed,
so cut yer crap, and go blow ecevit.
Jay-K
Adanali
I am going to educate you about Lemkin. It may take a long time but by and by
http://www.preventgenocide.org/lemkin/#guide
a-"Obviously, the German experience is the most striking and the most
deliberate and thorough, but history has provided us with other examples of the
destruction of entire nations, and ethnic and religious groups. There are, for
example, the destruction of Carthage; that of religious groups in the wars of
Islam and the Crusades; the massacres of the Albigenses and the Waldenses; and
more recently, the massacre of the Armenians."
b-"By its very legal, moral and humanitarian nature, it must be considered an
international crime. The conscience of mankind has been shocked by this type of
mass barbarity. There have been many instances of states expressing their
concern about another state's treatment of its citizens. The United States
rebuked the government of Czarist Russia as well as that of Rumania for the
ghastly pogroms they instigated or tolerated. There was also diplomatic action
in behalf of the Greeks and Armenians when they were being massacred by the
REAL
Lemkin said, and instead post everything else in the hope of diverting from what he
said. YET you can't change what he indeed did say!
Raphael Lemkin who coined the word "genocide" in 1943. A Polish Jew whose
parents were killed in the Holocaust, Lemkin became the primary advocate for the
creation of the 1948 U.N. Genocide Convention.
http://www.preventgenocide.org/lemkin/index.htm
Here are some of his words where he specificically cites the armenians.
"In this way a mass obliteration of nationhoods had been planned throughout
occupied Europe. The Nazi leaders had stated very bluntly their intent to wipe out
the Poles, the Russians; to destroy demographically and culturally the French
element in Alsace-Lorraine, the Slavonians in Carniola and Carinthia. They almost
achieved their goal in exterminating the Jews and Gypsies in Europe. Obviously,
the German experience is the most striking and the most deliberate and thorough,
but history has provided us with other examples of the destruction of entire
nations, and ethnic and religious groups. There are, for example, the destruction
of Carthage; that of religious groups in the wars of Islam and the Crusades; the
massacres of the Albigenses and the Waldenses; and more recently, the massacre
of the Armenians."
------
Ja...@webtv.net
rottweiler humped her hairy baboon ass with his eyes shut. Now, you get
your !/2 ton lard fuzzy ass over here with your knee pads,take your
dentures off and Gum me Bitch."
And adanali replied." Escooze me Lempkin but shood I wear underwear
under my skirt or not?"
Jay-K
vedat
I know it hurts baaaaaad.
your mind is fucked.
your mother's Soiled panty still gently flutters
at the end of a stick, at the top of Mt Ararat.
Ja...@webtv.net
DUMBell is Turkish invention.
P.S. Speaking of invention, whatever happened to your color radio
project? running out of fund...........eh? ROFLOL
Jay-K
Ja...@webtv.net
ROFLOL
Jay-K
Ja...@webtv.net
Jay-K
Adanali
You posted:
>YET you fail to realise the importance of whatLemkin said,
Go right ahead and explain the "importance of what Lemkin said" . He mentioned
armenians 3 times only, and never in a petition to the League of Nations or the
UN. Tell us, what is so important about what he said. What makes the armenians
special in Lemkin's eyes? How many times did he petition on their behalf? Show
us where he called what happened to them "genocide".
If you can, I will stop calling you un-real.
REAL
Adanali wrote:
> my dear un-real:
>
> You posted:
> >YET you fail to realise the importance of whatLemkin said,
>
> Go right ahead and explain the "importance of what Lemkin said" .
Once again!
Adanali
you have not put the issue in perspective. Three inconsequental remarks from
Lemkin that you can not interpret. Now, here again is a question you can not
answer:
How important are the armenians in Lemkin's application to the League of
Nations(1933) or in his book -"Axis Rule in Occupied Europe: Laws of Occupation
- Analysis of Goverment - Proposals for Redress, Washington, D.C.: Carnegie
Endowment for International Peace, 1944" , where he defined "genocide" for the
first time?
Stuck again?
read below:
http://www.preventgenocide.org/lemkin/#guide
a-"Obviously, the German experience is the most striking and the most
deliberate and thorough, but history has provided us with other examples of the
destruction of entire nations, and ethnic and religious groups. There are, for
example, the destruction of Carthage; that of religious groups in the wars of
Islam and the Crusades; the massacres of the Albigenses and the Waldenses; and
more recently, the massacre of the Armenians."
b-"By its very legal, moral and humanitarian nature, it must be considered an
international crime. The conscience of mankind has been shocked by this type of
mass barbarity. There have been many instances of states expressing their
concern about another state's treatment of its citizens. The United States
rebuked the government of Czarist Russia as well as that of Rumania for the
ghastly pogroms they instigated or tolerated. There was also diplomatic action
in behalf of the Greeks and Armenians when they were being massacred by the
unreal rabble will change this.
REAL
Adanali wrote:
> my pathetic un-real:
>
not yours and not unreal. I understand the name calling makes you feel better. But
it really just shows how desperate you are.
>
> you have not put the issue in perspective. Three inconsequental remarks from
> Lemkin that you can not interpret. Now, here again is a question you can not
> answer:
oh how you wish these words could be erased with your "perspective".
Once again!
Raphael Lemkin who coined the word "genocide" in 1943. A Polish Jew whose
parents were killed in the Holocaust, Lemkin became the primary advocate for the
creation of the 1948 U.N. Genocide Convention.
http://www.preventgenocide.org/lemkin/index.htm
Here are some of his words where he specificically cites the armenians.
"In this way a mass obliteration of nationhoods had been planned throughout
occupied Europe. The Nazi leaders had stated very bluntly their intent to wipe out
the Poles, the Russians; to destroy demographically and culturally the French
element in Alsace-Lorraine, the Slavonians in Carniola and Carinthia. They almost
achieved their goal in exterminating the Jews and Gypsies in Europe. Obviously,
the German experience is the most striking and the most deliberate and thorough,
but history has provided us with other examples of the destruction of entire
nations, and ethnic and religious groups. There are, for example, the destruction
of Carthage; that of religious groups in the wars of Islam and the Crusades; the
massacres of the Albigenses and the Waldenses; and more recently, the massacre
of the Armenians."
------
Adanali
How can I convince you that what the quotes you ascribe to Lemkin are true? I
even post the same myself and you resent it. The point, which you simply hate,
is that it does not matter. Those three statements do not give armenians any
special place in Lemkin's arguments. The total volume he devotes to them is
less than a fraction of a thousanth of his work.
Go ahead and post these puny references again if it makes you feel good. You
can not change the fact that they do not matter. Screwtape will get you in the
end at this rate.
With patience
Ismail Zekeriya