Let's talk about our English
Carl Wright cc0197
(humorous stories deleted, read the original)
:
: Perhaps you would think these are very stupid, but can you (we) just
: laugh at them??? I hope to hear your opinion.
:
: Yours sincerely
: SShin
I did not think they were stupid in the least. I can imagine myself
trying to be understood in Korean. However, I must cast some doubt on
them, since Mr Tanaka assures us that it is always Americans making fun
of Japanese ability (or inability) to speak English that is ridiculed.
Seriously, if we can all laugh at our misunderstandings and work our way
towards understanding it will be a better world for all.
Loved your stories.
Carl
_____________________________________________________________________________
Disclammer...Disclamur...Whatever...If I can't spell Disclaimer, it's obvious
I don't speak for 3M.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jean W. Williams
It takes a lot of courage (or a bit of craziness) to go to another
country where you don't really speak the language and try to fit in the
culture. You are so right about the importance of keeping a sense of
humor - for both sides concerned.
I'll share a few funny ones with you. When I first went to Japan,
basically I could only count to ten and say "sayonara" in Japanese (I was
one of the crazy ones). I didn't have a phone for quite a while, so my
company sent me telegrams if they had an urgent message. The telegrams
are delivered by the post office. The first few times, I had the worst
time when the postman rang me on the intercom. I had no idea who he was,
what he wanted, and I was reluctant to buzz him into the building.
One day, the intercom sounded, and I could hear a long intake of breath
and paper rattling. Finally, a voice said in English, "I -- - - - am a
telegram". Well, when the postman got to my door I was still chuckling,
but I managed to say to him in Japanese, "Yes, you are. Thank you." And
I really did feel thanks that he tried to make life easier on me. AFter
all, the purpose of any language is communication.
Now, I'll tell a funny one on me. I was in a dancing recital and a stage
assistant was going to help me with a costume change on the stage. My
teacher told me that when the stage assistant came, I should just sit
down, hold my kimono sleeves and not talk. The man came, I sat quietly
and held my sleeves. The man said, "Hanashite, hanashite" which I
understood to mean (speak, speak). I remembered my teacher's advice, and
shook my head "no". He repeated, "hanashite, hanashite". Again I shook
my head "no." Finally, he just grabbed the sleeves out of my hands.
I knew there was some communication problem. Later at home I checked my
Japanese dictionary. The verb "let go" in Japanese sounds just the same
in the imperative tense as "speak". I was so embarassed, so I apologized
to my teacher, but he was just laughing. He said, "no need to apologize
- I told the stage assistant we're lucky that you're such an obedient
student."
For 7 years I was so lucky Japanese people could have patience and humor
with my fractured Japanese I always try to be patient myself when
non-native English speakers try to communicate with me.
--Jean
Vladimir Eito Hiromoto
>Seriously, though, I've found in average people in Europe speak better
>English than people from oriental countries. Some of the Europeans I
>met had never been to either US or UK, they nevertheless spoke very
>gook English, and they were not language majors. I used to compare
>English proficiency of mainland Chinese with that of Europeans, and
>attributed the difference to the fact that mainland Chinese had much
>less exposure to English than Europeans. I still think unequal exposure
>can partly explain the difference, and as mainland Chinese have more
>exposure to English, their average English proficiency has improved. But
>one thing that still puzzles me is the difference between orientals and
>people from other parts of the world, e.g., Europe, Middle East, Afirica,
>Southern America, etc.. My observation may be wrong, but I somehow feel
>people from other parts of the world have less difficulties with English
>than orientals do. Since I've never been to other oriental countries, I
>can not verify my observation, but even if I can, there still remains
>a question of why such a difference exits. Can folks from different
>oriental regions shed some light on this?
I think that proficiency in spoken English is proportional to the
quantity of times to speak it. Including me Asians who live in
countries that English is by no means an official language or daily
means of communication have literally limited verbal skills and it is
quite natural. I'm not sure I know well about educational system around
Asian countries, but not a few schools in India, subjects relevant to
natural science (e.g, algebra, rudimentary of biologies or something
like that) are tutored in English from elementary education. If they
don't need to speak out it in their daily life but thru the process
pupils got so many knowledge in English and it must not be negligible.
Furthermore, some schools force pupils or students speak English at
least in their school that spurs their ability.
BTW, in Japan, almost every schools present English lesson for the sake
of reading skill that is simply indispensable to matriculation but oral
communication skill seem to be shrugged away. I deem such situation is
the same as in Korea and mainland China.
I know my English is quite bad . Please be patient with it for a while
:-)
Vladimir
Public Terminal User @ SUNY-A
male counterparts do. Probably due to the fact that women have superior
verbal skills.
ss
>Seriously, though, I've found in average people in Europe
>speak better English than people from oriental countries.
I believe that is true, the average people speak better English than
people from Asian countries.
But, simply look at a world map. If you see one, you will see where UK
is. English is from England. That's why we call that is English, it is
not originally from the US. UK is one of European countries. All - or
should I say almost? - European countries use Alphabets, Maybe they are
slightly different, but still reasonably similar.
I think "mishelle...@stonebow.otago.ac.nz" explained about this.
Yeah... she is from my University. :) :) English is more related to
other European languages.
If you ask us to learn Chinese or Japanese, yes, I am sure that we will
pronounce better and learn faster, I mean the average..
Sincerely
Sook Kyoung, Shin
ss
>ss (sookkyu...@stonebow.otago.ac.nz) wrote:
>(humorous stories deleted, read the original)
>: Perhaps you would think these are very stupid, but can you (we) just
>: laugh at them??? I hope to hear your opinion.
>I did not think they were stupid in the least. I can imagine myself
>trying to be understood in Korean.
>Seriously, if we can all laugh at our misunderstandings and work
>our way towards understanding it will be a better world for all.
That is true. I have many good friends here. They often laugh at my
mistakes, but correct my English. I don't mind to be laughed - I give
them a joy, eh? :) , if they do not mean it.
>Loved your stories.
Thank you.
Sincerely
Sook Kyoung, Shin
ss
>I am Japanese. I came over to the United States when I was
>8 years old. I had no previous knowledge of English, and
>all I could say was probabaly "Yes", "No", and some numbers.
I think that most non-English speakers especially Asian 'coz our
languages are much more different from English have the same problem.
>When I went to school in the States for the first time, I
>experienced tons of mistakes like the ones the previous
>poster mentioned. I understand perfectly well how one feels
>in such a situation, and it's not funny.
>I guess I will tell you about some of my funny mistakes.
- the first story has been deleted.
>Another time, my teacher was introducing me to the other teachers
>She said, "I'm Ms. Moody, this is Ms. Jones, this is Ms. Smith,..."
>and one of the kids asked me, "What's my
>name?" His name was Kevin so I answered, "Ms. Kevin."
Wow, :) But you were still better than me. I couldn't even answer what
name was. :P :) :)
>These mistakes, I could laugh at. But when it gets to academic,
>the smile goes away. I get this frustrating anger at myself
>for not understanding the material. The teacher would ask me,
>"What don't you understand?" I don't know what I don't understand.
>I just don't understand everything.
Yes, it happens a lot, eh?? Once I asked a problem to my tutor at
varsity. I had to turn on and log in to the computer. I did not have any
experience on a computer - nowadays I cannot live without a computer.
The tutor said, read the manual. Gees... If I understood the manual - it
was given more than a week ago. - I wouldn't ask him.
What I wanted to say was...
Before I came to New Zealand, yes, I already knew that New Zealand was
located nearby Australia. New Zealanders speak in English, and they are
mainly from Britain. Before I came, I thought "Oh, yeah... I can handle
it. What an interesting challenge it is. I will make the people become
interested about my country, Korea." But it was not that easy. Gees, I
was blind, voiceless, and deaf. I mean I had two eyes, ears, and a mouth
to communicate with some others, but they were totally useless. I knew
it would happen, but I was not prepared.
I think that I am slightly getting better... Less mistakes??? I still
always make some anyway. :(
Hopefully you don't have these problems anymore. Best Luck for you. YOu
still have to survive there!!! :) :)
Sincerely
Sook Kyoung, Shin
Brian Dooley
michelle...@stonebow.otago.ac.nz (Miche) wrote:
> I have studied a little in the area of linguistics, and I think the
> difference might be language groups. English is very closely related
> to certain other languages, such as Flemish and German, and still quite
> closely related to other European languages, which, even though they
> are different from each other, broadly speaking share many
> similarities. Therefore, it strikes me that it would be easier for
> European people to speak English than for Asian people. Asian
> languages are very differently constructed from European languages,
> which would make them harder to learn for an English speaker (and vice
> versa) than a European language.
In anecdotal mode:
One of our neighbours, the then head of WN Poly languages
school, was at one time an RAF Mandarin interpreter in Hong
Kong. When the interpreters branch was "civilianised" he was
offered retraining and chose to become a programer - in
those days all Cobol. He told me that if ever he had a
really tricky bit of programing to do he found it easiest to
think it through in Mandarin because it is a purely analytic
language, but that English was next best because of all the
other languages he was conversant with (six pretty fluent
and another six he could get around in) it was the most
nearly analytic.
Brian Dooley
Wellington New Zealand
Nick Pace
Charlotte Chen <cc...@mugu.gte.com> wrote:
>
>My first language is Mandarin Chinese. Having been married to a native
>Spanish speaker for 10 years, I now speak some Spanish. What amazes me
>about the Americans is that they look DOWN on people who speak broken
>English.
Sorry to burst your bubble but Americans don't look "down" on people who
speak broken English. Most Americans speak terrible English anyway (ask
any school teacher) and with an increasing number of citizens whose first
language is not English, no one with an ounce of intelligence would make
these sorts of snap judgements about the character of those who don't know
the language perfectly.
>Lately, a Texas judge
>even went as far as accusing a Mother child-abuse because she only spoke
>Spanish to her 5-year-old daughter. The judge's argument was that the
>child would end up to be a maid if she didn't learn to speak English.
First off, I have trouble believing that a child-abuse complaint was filed
over speaking a language other than English to a 5 year old.. Here in
L.A., you would have to imprison 40% of the parents if such an act was
illegal. Second, that's Texas for you....
>Why do Americans have such a mentality that one's intelligence has
>direct relationship with one's abillity to speak English?
How many years have you lived in the U.S. in order to have the data to
make that sort of statement? Please, feel free to complain about our
politics, our foreign policy, our stands on human rights, our art and
media, our environmental record, etc., etc., but please, withhold comment
about American "mentality" until you've had a chance to really explore
what that means and talk to and live with the people across this country.
Watching our awful exported movies and junk television shows is not an
acceptable substitute for truly understanding the United States and the
people who live here.
I agree that we could do a better job of teaching our children how to
speak, read, and write in languages other than English. Hopefully, we're
moving in that direction. And I find recent political movements towards
making English our official national language (unlike many countries, the
U.S. does not have an "official" language) both a disturbing trend and
a diversion from more important issues. But do most Americans consider
someone who is learning English to be sub-humans? Of course not.
Just had to say something. Your intentions to set up a support group for
families with multiple languages in the household is admirable and no
doubt acutely needed both here in the U.S. and in countries across the
world. But don't paint all of the U.S., and everyone in it, as some kind
of neo-nazi elitist pig in order to promote your program.
Nick
Charlotte Chen
There is a bilingual families mailing list. If anyone interested, send
mail to majo...@nvg.unit.no with the following command in the body of
your email message:
subscribe biling-fam <your email address>
My first language is Mandarin Chinese. Having been married to a native
Spanish speaker for 10 years, I now speak some Spanish. What amazes me
about the Americans is that they look DOWN on people who speak broken
English. Being a Chinese speaking broken Spanish in South America,
I've never been treated as a 2nd class citizen. Lately, a Texas judge
even went as far as accusing a Mother child-abuse because she only spoke
Spanish to her 5-year-old daughter. The judge's argument was that the
child would end up to be a maid if she didn't learn to speak English.
Why do Americans have such a mentality that one's intelligence has
direct relationship with one's abillity to speak English?
Charlotte
scg...@bnr.ca
it is annoying to see yellow skin pretending to be white
with names like Whitman, John, Jose ...etc...etc..etc.
So, pretenders, just learn the language OK. Don't pretend to be
white. Have you guys ever seen Americans, Australians or any western
people who learn Asian languages, adopt Asians names and use them
as their own?
Why, does western names make you guys more superior?
scg...@bnr.ca
scg...@bnr.ca
Jonathan Chen
ss <is20...@rivendell.otago.ac.nz> writes:
[language embarassments deleted]
What's the big deal? It doesn't matter what country/language is involved,
there's always some embarrasment involved in learning/using a new language
in a foreign country. It's not limited to English speaking countries.
--
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Jonathan Chen <jo...@pinnacle.co.nz>
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Milan Hejtmanek
[cut]
> So, pretenders, just learn the language OK. Don't pretend to be
> white. Have you guys ever seen Americans, Australians or any western
> people who learn Asian languages, adopt Asians names and use them
> as their own?
Yes, many in Korea.
Milan Hejtmanek
aka Ha Min-song
Beijing Ge Men-er
>It is nice to learn English or any other languages BUT
>it is annoying to see yellow skin pretending to be white
>with names like Whitman, John, Jose ...etc...etc..etc.
>
>white. Have you guys ever seen Americans, Australians or any western
>people who learn Asian languages, adopt Asians names and use them
>as their own?
>
i guess it is pretty much depend on the one who choose
to use another name, how does he/she think of it.
personally, i don't use English name. but if i use,
i guess it is just for fun, i wouldn't take it seriously.
as for whether Westerner use Asian names or not, it doesn't
matter.
--
-------------------------------------
"To be great is to be misunderstood".
-------------------------------------
Donghong Mo
>it is annoying to see yellow skin pretending to be white
>with names like Whitman, John, Jose ...etc...etc..etc.
That is becaue your chest can't hold a boat.
>
>So, pretenders, just learn the language OK. Don't pretend to be
>white.
Using a white name I think most people are by the reason
of convenience. Nothing like your imagine.
Have you guys ever seen Americans, Australians or any western
>people who learn Asian languages, adopt Asians names and use them
>as their own?
Sure. Many English experts work in China have Chinese names.
>
>Why, does western names make you guys more superior?
>
Silly question.
Dick Brewster
>with names like Whitman, John, Jose ...etc...etc..etc.
>
>as their own?
>
>
>
It seems to be primarily Chinese that take English language names.
Let's think this through.... Chinese businessman is fluent in Mandarin
or Cantonese and another dialect of Chinese and fluent in English. Then
he takes an English language name to make it easy for Caucasions who
speak maybe 1.5 languages to remember his name. Is he pretending to be
something that he isn't ... or is he just smart?
I think he's just smart,
Alvin Leung
[Stuff deleted]
|> Perhaps you would think these are very stupid, but can you (we) just
|> laugh at them??? I hope to hear your opinion.
|>
|> SShin
|>
|>
Live and learn; learn or die. People usually learn from their mistakes.
Alvin
Boss
Just because they think they are superior because they are "white as a
ghost" and so is their language. They think that because English is one
of the most popular langauges in the world especially it is used in the
United Nation, everyone who cannot speak English will be inferior. Wait
until they learn Chinese! They even have a hard time copying word by
word!
Ming Yeung
Nick Pace <nick...@judge.rand.org> wrote:
>
>Sorry to burst your bubble but Americans don't look "down" on people who
Hello ! Where in US are you staying ?? How come there are so
many anti-immigrants/foreigners jokes in the US TV almost everyday ?
Cut that stupid 'joke' would ya ?
>speak broken English. Most Americans speak terrible English anyway (ask
Agree. That's why I got pissed when they picked on my broken English. Haha..
>any school teacher) and with an increasing number of citizens whose first
>language is not English, no one with an ounce of intelligence would make
>these sorts of snap judgements about the character of those who don't know
>the language perfectly.
I bet a lot of americans have less than an ounce of intelligence nowadays,
judge by your standard.
>[Rest deleted]
Ming " I speak pidgin english and proud of it !! :) " Yeung
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Ming J. Yeung (email : tri...@seanet.com)
URL : http://www.seanet.com/users/tricom
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Szu-Wen Huang
>scg...@bnr.ca in <soc.culture.malaysia> :
>#It is nice to learn English or any other languages BUT
>#it is annoying to see yellow skin pretending to be white
>#with names like Whitman, John, Jose ...etc...etc..etc.
>#So, pretenders, just learn the language OK. Don't pretend to be
>#white. Have you guys ever seen Americans, Australians or any western
>#people who learn Asian languages, adopt Asians names and use them
>#as their own?
Yes, I have. Most foreigners in Taiwan invent a Chinese name.
Ho Rei Yuan, a rather famous Christian broadcaster from the US
is a good example.
>#Why, does western names make you guys more superior?
No, a "western" name enables "westerners" to pronounce my name
and save me the hassle of explaining how "szu" is supposed to
be pronounced.
--
Steven ?:)
Y.S.F. Kong
> <scg...@bnr.ca> wrote:
> >It is nice to learn English or any other languages BUT
> >it is annoying to see yellow skin pretending to be white
> >with names like Whitman, John, Jose ...etc...etc..etc.
> >
> >Why, does western names make you guys more superior?
Hmm...i wonder if they are really english names or are they christian
names,for example,I'm Chinese,but my first name is Fredric which is on my
passport and Birth cert. I've never claimed to be white nor do i feel
superior,the reason why I am called fred is because i was born a catholic
and therefore,fred is my baptism name..it's all religious and has nothing
to do with being white,yellow or black or green
FRED.
Lo Ka Fai
--
Come on, who tells you that we are pretending to be white?
Who wants to be white when the whole world's attention is
in Asia. If you are that proud of your language, mind you we are
mastering "your English". Stop being so racist. It won't help you
feel superior!!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
br0...@bingsuns.cc.binghamton.edu
: My first language is Mandarin Chinese. Having been married to a native
: about the Americans is that they look DOWN on people who speak broken
: English. Being a Chinese speaking broken Spanish in South America,
: I've never been treated as a 2nd class citizen. Lately, a Texas judge
: even went as far as accusing a Mother child-abuse because she only spoke
: Spanish to her 5-year-old daughter. The judge's argument was that the
: child would end up to be a maid if she didn't learn to speak English.
: Why do Americans have such a mentality that one's intelligence has
: direct relationship with one's abillity to speak English?
countries such as those in South American, non-natives are highly
respected if they can speak in the local language with any level of
proficiency.
OTOH, right here in America, many people treat you differently or
even segregate you if you speak with an accent.
--
W. R. Chan
"No sig yet - maybe some day"
br0...@bingsuns.cc.binghamton.edu
: But I do think of one way to
: possibly tease out the educational factor, i.e., comparing the average English
: proficiency of people in Hong Kong with people from other parts of the world
: where English plays a comparable role in their educational systems. Maybe
: netters from Hong Kong can give us some ideas?
Although English is a formal language in Hong Kong, it is not the
language ( don't let those English names fool you ). Except for some
white color workers and businessmen, most people there use little
English and a majority of those know very little about the language.
Although it is true that everyone has to learn English starting from
elementary school, it is by far only in its written form. ( For those
who have learned a foreign language in school, how many of
you can actually converse fluently in that language. )
Moreover, the emphasis is gramma when it comes to learning English (
at least that used to be the case ) in HK. Using myself as an
example, I have ( although that knowledge has been degraded somewhat )
always been able to identify the structure of a sentence since 5th grade,
but I could barely speak when I first came to the states.
To sum up my point, education has only minor impact to how well a
people can speak in a certain language. Without practice on a daily
basis, one can never master speaking in any language.
br0...@bingsuns.cc.binghamton.edu
: It is nice to learn English or any other languages BUT
: it is annoying to see yellow skin pretending to be white
: with names like Whitman, John, Jose ...etc...etc..etc.
: So, pretenders, just learn the language OK. Don't pretend to be
: white. Have you guys ever seen Americans, Australians or any western
: people who learn Asian languages, adopt Asians names and use them
: as their own?
: Why, does western names make you guys more superior?
This topic was discussed extensively on soc.culture.hongkong -- with
high flames from all sides to say the least.
br0...@bingsuns.cc.binghamton.edu
: >It is true that there's always some embarrasment involved in learning a
: >new language. So you would just ignor it "It happens all the time
: >anyway"??
: Yes. Let's face it, such behaviour is not restricted to English speakers
: only. And if someone's gonna laugh at you, they're gonna laugh at you
: anyway.
You're right. It is tough to take but the best thing to do is to
laugh with them -- if you know they mean no harm. OTHO, sometimes it
is more than just harmless teasing, it could mean discrimination or
segregation.
Ken Nakata
>It is nice to learn English or any other languages BUT
>it is annoying to see yellow skin pretending to be white
>with names like Whitman, John, Jose ...etc...etc..etc.
>So, pretenders, just learn the language OK. Don't pretend to be
>white. Have you guys ever seen Americans, Australians or any western
>people who learn Asian languages, adopt Asians names and use them
>as their own?
>Why, does western names make you guys more superior?
I must say you are a bit narrow-minded. I know several Japanese-
Americans whose names are English names (Sam, Matt, Chris, etc), but
are they pretending to be white? No, not at all. How about the Black
people? Aren't they using English names as well? Are they pretending
to be white? Well?
If you are referring to Chinese, Vietnamese, etc, who came to the US
after they've grown up quite a bit, I think they are doing that for
their own benefit; it must be hell of an effort to make Americans
remember their real names! In fact, a Sudanese-born "Star Trek Deep
Space 9" star, formerly known as Siddig El Fadil, changed his name to
Alexander Siddig because "After three years on the show, most people
still could not pronounce my name" (I'm declined to disclose the
source of information, not because it is confidential, but because I'm
a bit ashamed of myself reading the kind of stuff B-).
BTW, I'm not using an English name; my name "Ken" is a common Japanese
name. Americans seem to think adaptation of English names is a common
practice among all Aisian people, but I've never met a single Japanese
who's doing it. It must be rather a rare practice among Japanese in
the States.
ken
--
Ken Nakata | An unofficial MacBSD anon-ftp maintainer at
a NetBSD UN*X-weenie | ftp://remus.rutgers.edu/pub/NetBSD. See also
Rutgers University | ftp://remus.rutgers.edu/pub/NetBSD/index.html.
New Brunswick, New Jersey | Home Page: http://remus.rutgers.edu/~kenn/
Raymond Benne
br0...@bingsuns.cc.binghamton.edu () writes:
>
>Charlotte Chen (cc...@mugu.gte.com) wrote: What amazes me
broken English.
What amazes me about the Chinese speaking people is there gross
generalizations.
Of course that is a rediculas statement (mine) but so is your comment
about Americans looking down on people who speak broken english. I am
an American and do NOT look down on people who speak broken anything
unless it is their primary lanquage (a problem we have here. People who
can't speak english when it is their only lanquage I have no respect
for) people who speak English to any degree as a second lanquage I have
tremendos respect for. I for one only speak one language. This is
especcially true of non europeans as it is that much more difficult for
them.
> Lately, a Texas judge
>: even went as far as accusing a Mother child-abuse because she only
>spoke Spanish to her 5-year-old daughter. The judge's argument was
>that the child would end up to be a maid if she didn't learn to >speak
English. Why do Americans have such a mentality that one's
>intelligence has direct relationship with one's abillity to speak
>English?
If the above had happend it would have been headline news all over
America. But lets pretend for a moment it did happin as you heard it.
The judge is at least partially right. America is a single lanquage
country and if you can not speak English you will not get chosen at a
job interview. Plain and simple. If I am interviewing an engineer for
employment at my company, how am I supposed to know if he/she has any
sense at all if I can not talk to them or understand them? I will not
assume he/she is not intelligent, just that I can not communicate with
them. Therefore they will not get hired. Too bad, but I can not sit in
my office with a Chiniese/english dictionary to give job assignents out
for projects.
Don't speak english in USA? No good jobs. period. We will usually NOT
give much creedence to good grades etc, without a personal interview.
And if you do not speak English their can be not personal interview.
Now if you speak broken English thats a different story. If I can
understand you and you can understand me it no longer matters, hey we
arn't lanquage snobs, thats the French.
R. Benne
Cleveland Ohio USA (frequent traveler to Malaysia)
zhang zhiyao
language acquisation is much easier with background knowledge in a similar
language.
The European languages for example are all so similar. I learnt German in under
a year thanks largely to prior knowledge of English and I can often read texts
in French and Spanish from interpolating between English and Italian. I regard
it as hardly surprising that many western Europeans speak reasonable English,
even those who have never been to either England, the USA, Canada, Australia
etc before. The number of clueless American tourists that they have to deal
with each sommer certainly helps as well.
native Hokkien speaker, chih-yao
Dasen Luo
>--
>W. R. Chan
>"No sig yet - maybe some day"
Thank you for correcting my misconception about English education in
Hong Kong. I've always thought Hong Kong adopts a bilingual education
system, or something of that kind. I got an email message yesterday
from a netter who grew up in Singapore. He said oral English is no
problem for educated Singarorians, or at least his message gives me
such an impression. Can any netters from Singapore kindly tell us
why English education has been so successful in Singapore?
LD
Seagull
Ken Nakata <ke...@er6.rutgers.edu> wrote:
><scg...@bnr.ca> writes:
>
>>It is nice to learn English or any other languages BUT
>>it is annoying to see yellow skin pretending to be white
>>with names like Whitman, John, Jose ...etc...etc..etc.
>
>>So, pretenders, just learn the language OK. Don't pretend to be
>>white. Have you guys ever seen Americans, Australians or any western
>>people who learn Asian languages, adopt Asians names and use them
>>as their own?
>
>
>name. Americans seem to think adaptation of English names is a common
>practice among all Aisian people, but I've never met a single Japanese
>who's doing it. It must be rather a rare practice among Japanese in
>the States.
So you mean Japanese think they are already "white"enough. Or you
mean American can pronouce jap name good enough, like toyota, honda,
nakamichi, subaru etc.
Just kidding, take it easy.
I decided to take a "white" name now, "simpson" comes right into my mind,
but can it be a first name? with this name, I can do anything without
being thrown into jail in this country, am I right?
Yuanxin "simpson" Yang
President, BeWhiter Association
Beijing,
People's Republic of China
PS, If you are a native English speaker, and can pronouce my first
name correctly or close enough, I will reward you with 10 bucks
(US fund), for last name, 1000 bucks(japanese fund)
Phone number available upon request.
Vicky
>
>>What amazes me about the Chinese speaking people is there gross
>^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
>This is what we call "Pot.Kettle.Black" (Yau Hau Wah Yan, Mo Hau Wah
>Chi Kay). I hope you can find out your own mistake. Ray. Oh, you cant,
>okay, I will highlight it for ya.
This is a perfect example of taking a quote out of context. I am not
even the original poster, but I think you should re-read the statement he
made immediately after the above quote.
Vicky
--
email: sle...@tezcat.com, vy...@cornell.edu
http://www.tezcat.com/~sleepy/
"A friend knows the song in my heart, and sings it to me
when my memory fails"
Anthony Kim
: It is nice to learn English or any other languages BUT
: it is annoying to see yellow skin pretending to be white
: with names like Whitman, John, Jose ...etc...etc..etc.
Hmm... I have yellow skin (if you allow for the fact that I get a lot of
sun here in So. Cal.) and I have an English first name. You know, there
MAY be other reasons why people from other countries have English names.
For example, mine is the one my parents gave me when I was born.
: So, pretenders, just learn the language OK. Don't pretend to be
: white. Have you guys ever seen Americans, Australians or any western
: people who learn Asian languages, adopt Asians names and use them
: as their own?
Yep.
: Why, does western names make you guys more superior?
Nope.
-Tony Kim
Korean-AMERICAN
zhang zhiyao
#It is nice to learn English or any other languages BUT
#it is annoying to see yellow skin pretending to be white
#with names like Whitman, John, Jose ...etc...etc..etc.
#So, pretenders, just learn the language OK. Don't pretend to be
#white. Have you guys ever seen Americans, Australians or any western
#people who learn Asian languages, adopt Asians names and use them
#as their own?
#Why, does western names make you guys more superior?
Let me just put the foot in the door before a whole lot of people waste
time and bandwidth flaming this looney.
The name in my passport is "Alexander Chih-Yao Teo". But I post to USENET
under my Chinese name "Zhang Zhiyao". So what gives?
People with inferiority complexes are best advised to seek professional
help rather than to broadcast their problems on USENET for the world to
read and laugh at.
Ming Yeung
Vicky <vy...@cornell.edu> wrote:
>In article <45mej2$1...@kisa.seanet.com>, Ming Yeung wrote...
>>
>>>What amazes me about the Chinese speaking people is there gross
>>>generalizations. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>
>>This is what we call "Pot.Kettle.Black" (Yau Hau Wah Yan, Mo Hau Wah
>>Chi Kay). I hope you can find out your own mistake. Ray. Oh, you cant,
>>okay, I will highlight it for ya.
>
>This is a perfect example of taking a quote out of context. I am not
>even the original poster, but I think you should re-read the statement he
>made immediately after the above quote.
>
I just want to judge that statement since it is the only part he talks
abt over-gen. period.
Ming
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Ming J. Yeung (email : tri...@seanet.com)
URL : http://www.seanet.com/users/tricom
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tricom Technology (Tel : (206) 328-0538)
URL : http://www.seanet.com/users/tricom/tricom.html
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Rhys W Cheung
: In article <CC00.95Oc...@mugu.gte.com>,
: Charlotte Chen <cc...@mugu.gte.com> wrote:
: >
: >My first language is Mandarin Chinese. Having been married to a native
: >English.
: Sorry to burst your bubble but Americans don't look "down" on people who
: speak broken English. Most Americans speak terrible English anyway (ask
: any school teacher) and with an increasing number of citizens whose first
: language is not English, no one with an ounce of intelligence would make
: these sorts of snap judgements about the character of those who don't know
: the language perfectly.
Excuuuuuse me; maybe you don't judge people like that, but how do you
know how others judge? From my personal experience, most Americans do
look down on broken-English speakers. You can't feel such treatment
unless you have been treated that way before yourself (or do you have a
habit of sticking your head into conversations between people to see if
they are being looked down upon?) To turn your own question back on you:
How many years have you hung out (I mean follow, day in, day out) with
people who speak broken English to investigate how the rest of American
society treats them? Were you listening on the other line of the telephone
when they called someplace to inquire about something? Were you there
observing when they tried to conduct business matters with someone? Who
are you to say what happens when you haven't been on the receiving side
of the rudeness?
The Chanteur
: <scg...@bnr.ca> writes:
: >it is annoying to see yellow skin pretending to be white
: >with names like Whitman, John, Jose ...etc...etc..etc.
: That is becaue your chest can't hold a boat.
Granted, there are some Chinese I know who think that being born Chinese
is a curse, and go around affecting anglophile mannerisms. They exist.
But thankfully, there aren't too many of'em. And don't think they aren't
annoying to ethnic Chinese, too. In fact, there are very specific
derogatory Chinese insults for them. =)
: >So, pretenders, just learn the language OK. Don't pretend to be
: >white.
: Using a white name I think most people are by the reason
: of convenience. Nothing like your imagine.
That's true. When I travelled on an air ticket which puts my Chinese name
first, customs officers in Egypt, Kuwait and Romania generally mangled it
beyond recognition. (Try pronouncing "WEITZE" as one word.) The British
used a more diplomatic "Sir", at least, than to try.
Mr Weitze ... I could get used to it, you know. =9
: Have you guys ever seen Americans, Australians or any western
: >people who learn Asian languages, adopt Asians names and use them
: >as their own?
: Sure. Many English experts work in China have Chinese names.
: >Why, does western names make you guys more superior?
: Silly question.
Actually, hor, "more" is quite redundant leh ... "Superior" itself
already contains the meaning of being a degree better than something
else, so "more superior" is a double superlative.
GI-GO indeed.
--
The Chanteur <chee...@iscs.nus.sg> <<http://www.iscs.nus.sg/~cheeweit>>
n u n c i d v i d e s , n u n c n e v i d e s
"Archchancellor's Scrawn's Banquet next Octeday. Attendance is compulsory."
Dr Michael Loh
one and only one language, ie their own. Some of us using western names
are trying to help these poor guys out.
Xiaoyi Wu
: It is nice to learn English or any other languages BUT
: it is annoying to see yellow skin pretending to be white
: with names like Whitman, John, Jose ...etc...etc..etc.
: So, pretenders, just learn the language OK. Don't pretend to be
: white. Have you guys ever seen Americans, Australians or any western
: people who learn Asian languages, adopt Asians names and use them
: as their own?
: Why, does western names make you guys more superior?
The purpose many Asians adopted an English name must be for convenience as
most English-speaking people have great difficulties spelling Asian names.
Personally I think it mgiht be better if we stick to our own names and
educate them about the proper proununciations.
I see no reason however, for you to jump all over about them, btw, almost
every westerner I know who tends to stay a while in China adopted a chinese
name and print it everywhere.
Xiaoyi
Glenys
Thank you for pandering to my ignorance!
I can cope with "Michael" 8-)
--
Glenys
--------
Dick Brewster
>In article <45mbr5$7...@er6.rutgers.edu>,
>Ken Nakata <ke...@er6.rutgers.edu> wrote:
>><scg...@bnr.ca> writes:
>>
>>>it is annoying to see yellow skin pretending to be white
>>>with names like Whitman, John, Jose ...etc...etc..etc.
>>
>>>So, pretenders, just learn the language OK. Don't pretend to be
>>>white. Have you guys ever seen Americans, Australians or any western
>>>people who learn Asian languages, adopt Asians names and use them
>>>as their own?
>>
>>
>>name. Americans seem to think adaptation of English names is a common
>>practice among all Aisian people, but I've never met a single Japanese
>>who's doing it. It must be rather a rare practice among Japanese in
>>the States.
>
> So you mean Japanese think they are already "white"enough. Or you
> mean American can pronouce jap name good enough, like toyota, honda,
> nakamichi, subaru etc.
> Just kidding, take it easy.
>
> I decided to take a "white" name now, "simpson" comes right into my mind,
> but can it be a first name? with this name, I can do anything without
> being thrown into jail in this country, am I right?
>
>
> Yuanxin "simpson" Yang
> President, BeWhiter Association
> Beijing,
> People's Republic of China
>
> PS, If you are a native English speaker, and can pronouce my first
> name correctly or close enough, I will reward you with 10 bucks
> (US fund), for last name, 1000 bucks(japanese fund)
> Phone number available upon request.
>>
Yo, Bro. email me your phone number and I'll give it a shot. But I warn you
I've spent six hours in a classroom studying Mandarin (:-)
zai4 jian4
Vicky
>
>In article <45mlrr$j...@newsstand.cit.cornell.edu>,
>Vicky <vy...@cornell.edu> wrote:
>>In article <45mej2$1...@kisa.seanet.com>, Ming Yeung wrote...
>>>
>>>>What amazes me about the Chinese speaking people is there gross
>>>>generalizations. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>>^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>
>>even the original poster, but I think you should re-read the statement
he
>>made immediately after the above quote.
>
>I just want to judge that statement since it is the only part he talks
>abt over-gen. period.
Sigh. I knew I was wasting my time. Let me repeat: read the statement
after the above quote. It speaks for itself, so I have nothing more to
add. Don't even bother following up.
T. H. Rau
RWC>Nick Pace (nick...@judge.rand.org) wrote:
NP>: Sorry to burst your bubble but Americans don't look "down" on
NP>:English anyway (ask any school teacher) and with an increasing
NP>:number of citizens whose first language is not English, no one with
NP>:an ounce of intelligence would make these sorts of snap judgements
NP>:about the character of those who don't know the language perfectly.
NP>:
RWC>Excuuuuuse me; maybe you don't judge people like that, but how do
RWC>you know how others judge? From my personal experience, most
RWC>Americans do look down on broken-English speakers. You can't feel
RWC>such treatment unless you have been treated that way before yourself
RWC>(or do you have a habit of sticking your head into conversations
RWC>between people to see if they are being looked down upon?) To turn
RWC>your own question back on you: How many years have you hung out (I
RWC>mean follow, day in, day out) with people who speak broken English
RWC>to investigate how the rest of American society treats them? Were
RWC>you listening on the other line of the telephone when they called
RWC>someplace to inquire about something? Were you there observing when
RWC>they tried to conduct business matters with someone? Who are you to
RWC>say what happens when you haven't been on the receiving side of the
RWC>rudeness?
My response is directed to both messages in the hope to add to the
discussion. Clearly some, if not most, Americans do look down on
individuals who do not speak English as they do. For example: What do
you really suppose is the driving force behind the 'English only'
movement? Why would a Judge base his child custody decision on the
language fluency of one of the parents? These are the same Americans
who are offended by the erudite use of the language by individuals such
as Judge Ito. There appears to be no such feelings in regard to
Europeans who speak English with a heavy accent. Their accent seems to
denote intelligence, or is viewed as being sexy and cute. All of these
sentiments are a reflection of our endemic racial prejudice and the
inability of most Americans to see others in any terms other than skin
color.
Tom Rau nof...@pixi.com
Sheik Mustafa
: Hmm...i wonder if they are really english names or are they christian
: names,for example,I'm Chinese,but my first name is Fredric which is on my
: passport and Birth cert. I've never claimed to be white nor do i feel
: superior,the reason why I am called fred is because i was born a catholic
: and therefore,fred is my baptism name..it's all religious and has nothing
: to do with being white,yellow or black or green
: FRED.
Hmmmmmmmm.....
[detracting a little here]
Q1. Why would a Catholic have to have names which are European or "white" in
origin? Is "Fred" a Biblical name that could have been used in Jesus' time?
Q2. Can a Catholic have a baptism name that is Chinese instead?
Q3. If yes, can a white Catholic be baptised with a Chinese/non-white name?
Sheik.
Singapore.
No offence or anything; just a thought....
Melody Clark
>My first language is Mandarin Chinese. Having been married to a native
>Spanish speaker for 10 years, I now speak some Spanish. What amazes me
>about the Americans is that they look DOWN on people who speak broken
>English. Being a Chinese speaking broken Spanish in South America,
>I've never been treated as a 2nd class citizen. Lately, a Texas judge
>even went as far as accusing a Mother child-abuse because she only spoke
>Spanish to her 5-year-old daughter. The judge's argument was that the
>child would end up to be a maid if she didn't learn to speak English.
>Why do Americans have such a mentality that one's intelligence has
>direct relationship with one's abillity to speak English?
>
Charlotte,
For the same reason that the "Royal" family thinks itself superior, for
the same reason Bosnia is in flames, for the same reason anyone does
anything ridiculous...because stupidity is a shared human trait.
Speaking as the daughter of a Texan, the people of whom you speak don't
look "down" on those who speak broken English, they resent them. There's
a difference. It doesn't make it right, or even explicable, but it does
aim toward an understanding. It's a cultural thing.
Still, our country does have multi-lingual forms, TV channels, etc, etc.
MC
Melody Clark
>It is nice to learn English or any other languages BUT
>it is annoying to see yellow skin pretending to be white
>with names like Whitman, John, Jose ...etc...etc..etc.
Well, first of all, my friend, a lot of people (with non-British names)
were stripped of their ethnicity the moment they arrived. Ellis Island
history is filled with such accounts. My own husband's actual surname is
"Klaric", but when his grandfather joined the armed forces, they changed
his name. Still other Native Americans were stripped of their names and
given European names, just as were African people.
Secondly, why should you care?
>So, pretenders, just learn the language OK?
As we are waiting for you to do the same thing...
>Why, >>does<< western >>names<< hint, hint, hint
Melody of the @ - the nationals formerly known as Americans
K.C. Fong
:
: Thank you for correcting my misconception about English education in
: system, or something of that kind. I got an email message yesterday
: from a netter who grew up in Singapore. He said oral English is no
: problem for educated Singarorians, or at least his message gives me
: such an impression. Can any netters from Singapore kindly tell us
: why English education has been so successful in Singapore?
:
: LD
Hi,
In Singapore, there are many people who are non-Chinese and so
English becomes the most popular language other than Chinese.
kc
Gurmit
>Excuuuuuse me; maybe you don't judge people like that, but how do you
>know how others judge? From my personal experience, most Americans do
>look down on broken-English speakers. You can't feel such treatment
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Not so much on broken-English speaker, lah! They just don't feel
COM-FOR-table, when they don't hear an American-type accent (I say American-
type accent and not american accent becos' hor got many types of A-accent wan!)
Just the same, in 1986, some SIN-KA-POR undergrad ask this Beijingian
if he speaks "Mandarin" after they "catch no ball" what he said! Very the
funny, man!
>unless you have been treated that way before yourself (or do you have a
>habit of sticking your head into conversations between people to see if
>they are being looked down upon?) To turn your own question back on you:
>How many years have you hung out (I mean follow, day in, day out) with
>people who speak broken English to investigate how the rest of American
>society treats them? Were you listening on the other line of the telephone
>when they called someplace to inquire about something? Were you there
>observing when they tried to conduct business matters with someone? Who
>are you to say what happens when you haven't been on the receiving side
>of the rudeness?
Glenys
> For the same reason that the "Royal" family thinks itself superior
> ...because stupidity is a shared human trait.
Melody - to which "Royal" family do you refer? And what has
royalty got to do with speaking English.......?
--
Glenys
--------
Gurmit
>Charlotte Chen (cc...@mugu.gte.com) wrote:
>I had a bad time during a Europe trip for the opposite reason: NOBODY
>would speak to my friend and I *because* we spoke English. It was
>terrible -- there were only two of us, we didn't have any tour group or
>guide to help us get around. It was such a nightmare trying to get
>information from bus and train stations, especially in bloody France.
>I'm not kidding, here we were, two completely isolated people trying to
>find out what when the next train to Madrid was and if it was a sleeper,
>we line up for about half an hour and the first thing the person says the
>moment we open our mouths with "What time..." is "No Engleeeeeesh!!" in a
Did you try using Chinese? Why did English come to your mind
first and not Chinese? Say supposed now you're in Korea, and you're
buying a train ticket and you don't speak Korean, what's the first language
that comes to your mind that you'd use? English? Again? And not
Chinese? Why?
>very cross tone of voice. It was horribly disheartening, especially
>since I got the feeling more than once it was more a personal preference
>not to speak the language rather than a genuine lack of knowledge in it.
>THese were after all international stations.
>So my question is, what is it about Europeans (read, French) that makes
>them so unwilling to speak English, even when they know its the only
>language you are going to be able to converse in together?
The Koreans and Japanese read some Chinese Characters too? But
one would not try using Chinese in Seoul or Tokyo. Maybe one could try
French or Deutsch, for after all, many Japanese who go thru University
learn some "DO-I-TI" (Deustch).
What's my point here? Well,..., English has become the intermediate
language between two foreigners? I speak English to Koreas and Japanese
becos I don't speak Korean or Nihon-go, even in their native lands.
Two Chinese in US speak English to each other in Quebec? Huh? And do
you wanna know why? Because one is from Beijing and the other from HK.
Now even all pilots in the world have to learn some English...why not
Deutsch, or Japanese? Well, I don't know...perhaps a century from now,
we'll all be using Japanese or Chinese...
Timmins William Anthony
Sheik Mustafa <sh...@temasek.teleview.com.sg> wrote:
>Q1. Why would a Catholic have to have names which are European or "white" in
>origin? Is "Fred" a Biblical name that could have been used in Jesus' time?
>Q2. Can a Catholic have a baptism name that is Chinese instead?
>Q3. If yes, can a white Catholic be baptised with a Chinese/non-white name?
As far as I know, the Catholic Church likes people to use the names of
saints, but I don't think they insist.
The lack of Chinese saints names, I suppose, reflects the relatively slow
spread of Catholicism amongst Chinese speakers.
--
_________________________________________________________________________
/ <*> I'll design a proper signature real soon /
/__/ . / /_ _/ BillT t...@np.ac.sg http://www.np.ac.sg:9080/~twa /
/__/_/_/_/ _/____________________________________________________________/
Kelvin Booth
> Spanish speaker for 10 years, I now speak some Spanish. What amazes me
> about the Americans is that they look DOWN on people who speak broken
> English. Being a Chinese speaking broken Spanish in South America,
> I've never been treated as a 2nd class citizen. Lately, a Texas judge
> even went as far as accusing a Mother child-abuse because she only spoke
> Spanish to her 5-year-old daughter. The judge's argument was that the
> child would end up to be a maid if she didn't learn to speak English.
> Why do Americans have such a mentality that one's intelligence has
> direct relationship with one's abillity to speak English?
>
>
>
>
> Charlotte
in a broken fashion. I think what pisses some Americans off is when
non-native speakers make no effort to improve their english while
living in the US. They may view such individuals as enjoying the
freedom of the US, but refusing to blend in. I would also assume that
those who criticize have never actively studied another language. Those
of us who have know the difficulties in learning it, and would assist
as we see fit. I, personally, have never looked down upon broken
English speakers because I can just imagine how it would feel.
I do, however, wonder why some don't make the effort to improve their
English, especially if they have resided in the US for many years.
robertson jason vict
No, what pisses me off is native born English speakers who can't speak the
damned language. I don't want no double negatives, and I ain't going to
put up with no hick-speak. I don't care how irrational it is, if someone
speaks like a complete moron I will assume he is a complete moron. I'm no
English teacher, but native speakers should at least come close.
--
Buh?
PGP: finger jrob...@ux4.cso.uiuc.edu
email: jrob...@uiuc.edu
Boss
What's your point?
mark willis
>It is nice to learn English or any other languages BUT
>it is annoying to see yellow skin pretending to be white
>with names like Whitman, John, Jose ...etc...etc..etc.
>So, pretenders, just learn the language OK. Don't pretend to be
>white. Have you guys ever seen Americans, Australians or any western
>people who learn Asian languages, adopt Asians names and use them
>as their own?
>Why, does western names make you guys more superior?
Actually it is quite common in HK for Gweilos (read white men for
ignorant bastards like u) to be given Chinese names. It is also
common for Chinese to adopt Gweilo names.
Nothing to do with being superior, It is just a matter of being
practical. Non-Chinese feel more comfortable using a western names
and vice versa.
Now expain why western names would give a feeling of being superior.
I live in Asia and as far as I can see it is (and will become even
more) superior to countries on the down hill slide like America. May
be u should adopt a Chinese name to give u a superior feeling.
Mark Willis
Singapore
Mark Willis
Singapore
Andrew Yong
>Q1. Why would a Catholic have to have names which are European or "white" in
>origin? Is "Fred" a Biblical name that could have been used in Jesus' time?
Many Catholics like to be named after saints. I'm sure there's a St.
Frederic somewhere
>Q2. Can a Catholic have a baptism name that is Chinese instead?
Why not? But most of Christianity were basically Western
European-based religions throughout the last few centuries.
>Q3. If yes, can a white Catholic be baptised with a Chinese/non-white name?
If their is a St Sheik then it's possible it might happen. But then
most of them would still mispronounce it.
Andrew Yong
>
> Yuanxin "simpson" Yang
> President, BeWhiter Association
> Beijing,
> People's Republic of China
> PS, If you are a native English speaker, and can pronouce my first
> name correctly or close enough, I will reward you with 10 bucks
> (US fund), for last name, 1000 bucks(japanese fund)
> Phone number available upon request.
I'll take up the offer; English is my first language. If you give me
the right tones I'll even pronounce your given name perfectly (Hehe we
got the same surname, clansman). I don't feel like calling - should I
send a .wav file?
Andrew YONG Yu-I (Yang Youyi), Penang, Malaysia. (yo...@pop.jaring.my)
杨 友 毅 ， 马 来 西 亚 ， 槟 城 。
Kelvin Booth
> >You're right, it is wrong to look down upon non-native speakers who speak
> >in a broken fashion. I think what pisses some Americans off is when
> >non-native speakers make no effort to improve their english while
> >living in the US. They may view such individuals as enjoying the
> >freedom of the US, but refusing to blend in. I would also assume that
> >those who criticize have never actively studied another language. Those
> >of us who have know the difficulties in learning it, and would assist
> >as we see fit. I, personally, have never looked down upon broken
> >English speakers because I can just imagine how it would feel.
> >I do, however, wonder why some don't make the effort to improve their
> >English, especially if they have resided in the US for many years.
>
> No, what pisses me off is native born English speakers who can't speak the
> damned language. I don't want no double negatives, and I ain't going to
> put up with no hick-speak. I don't care how irrational it is, if someone
> speaks like a complete moron I will assume he is a complete moron. I'm no
> English teacher, but native speakers should at least come close.
> --
> Buh?
> PGP: finger jrob...@ux4.cso.uiuc.edu
> email: jrob...@uiuc.edu
Ya know, if you feel that way, please don't come out here to Hawaii.
This pidgin English that the locals speak is painful to the ear. When
most of us would say "I'm going to get something to eat", they would
say "I go for eat".
Sometimes it's uncomfortable being among a group of friends and associates.
Coming from the Mainland, and having a mother who gave the death look
if slang was spoken (in fun of course), I speak proper English
like I should. But sometimes it appears that I talk down to them when
I don't mean to; and I refuse to speak pidgin. Believe it or not,
some try to say it's an official language. Some even believe that it
should be taught in the schools here in Hawaii. This belongs in another
newsgroup, so I'll end it.
If there are any local Hawaii residents in this group, they'll be sure
to let me know.
Peace to all,
Kelvin
Thomas Hempel
>
>I had a bad time during a Europe trip for the opposite reason: NOBODY
>would speak to my friend and I *because* we spoke English. It was
>terrible -- there were only two of us, we didn't have any tour group or
>guide to help us get around. It was such a nightmare trying to get
>information from bus and train stations, especially in bloody France.
>I'm not kidding, here we were, two completely isolated people trying to
>find out what when the next train to Madrid was and if it was a sleeper,
>we line up for about half an hour and the first thing the person says the
>moment we open our mouths with "What time..." is "No Engleeeeeesh!!" in a
>very cross tone of voice. It was horribly disheartening, especially
>since I got the feeling more than once it was more a personal preference
>not to speak the language rather than a genuine lack of knowledge in it.
>THese were after all international stations.
>
>So my question is, what is it about Europeans (read, French) that makes
>them so unwilling to speak English, even when they know its the only
>language you are going to be able to converse in together?
It´s embarassing for me as an European that you had to make such bad
experience. But don´t expect anything from anybody, be self-conscious and show
people what you want until you get it, be kind and friendly.
Maybe you will laugh at my "hints" but I have just arrived from Malaysia and
Jordan. It´s like everywhere: There is friendly people, willing to help you even
if they can´t and ugly people that don´t even if they could.
Though you are right: English is widely spoken in Malaysia and S´pore, which
helps a lot to the traveller. Jordan peoples´ English was rather poor,
travelling there became a life-time experience.
See you next time in Europe
Thomas, Berlin.
ss
>It is nice to learn English or any other languages BUT
>it is annoying to see yellow skin pretending to be white
>with names like Whitman, John, Jose ...etc...etc..etc.
>So, pretenders, just learn the language OK. Don't pretend to be
>white. Have you guys ever seen Americans, Australians or any western
>people who learn Asian languages, adopt Asians names and use them
>as their own?
Oh..I use my own name which was give when I was born. My name is Sook
Kyoung and it is given by my father.
WhenI came to New Zealand, many Korean were using an English name. I am
telling my original first name to my friends and whoever is related to
official work... but do you know how many times I need to repeat my name
to call a taxi??? They never get my name easily. And I found people
don't memorise my name easily. Actually I can understand that, because I
can remember Korean name very esily, but all Chinese, Japanese and
English names are... gees why you guys are using such a complecated
name??? j/k
What I want to say is... because all of us have very/slightly different
back ground. Nobody is the same. Because my friends could pronouce my
name few times after they repeated, I love to keep my name. My sister..
her name is Eun Kyung. I noticed that none of Chinese, Japanese and
English native speakers ever could pronounce her name correctly. But for
me... I think her name is esier than my name. Well.. she still keeps her
name too.. but I would consider to change my name to an English one, if
I was her... 'coz it is easier to be called. :) :)
>Why, does western names make you guys more superior?
Do you still say so??
Faithfully
Sook Kyoung, SHIN
ps.BTW, I am very proud with my name.
ss
>scg...@bnr.ca wrote:
>: It is nice to learn English or any other languages BUT
>: it is annoying to see yellow skin pretending to be white
>: with names like Whitman, John, Jose ...etc...etc..etc.
>Hmm... I have yellow skin (if you allow for the fact that I get
>a lot of sun here in So. Cal.) and I have an English first
>name. You know, there MAY be other reasons why people from
>other countries have English names. For example, mine is the
>one my parents gave me when I was born.
>: Have you guys ever seen Americans, Australians or any western
>: people who learn Asian languages, adopt Asians names and use them
>: as their own?
>Yep.
Me, too. :)
>: Why, does western names make you guys more superior?
>Nope.
>-Tony Kim
>Korean-AMERICAN
nope, too. :)
Korean-New Zealander
Charlotte Chen
Someone has pointed out that in general Asian women has less accent than
Asian men (with English). My parents are the living proof of this.
My Father came to the US for college; therefore, he has been speaking
English off and on for some 50 years. My Mother has been in the US for
only 12 years, she had no prior experience with English. My Father's
English has such a heavy accent even I have a hard time understand his
English. On ther other hand, my Mother has very little accent. She is
studying to be an ELS teacher at the age of 57. I am really proud of her.
Charlotte
Charlotte Chen
Nick> Sorry to burst your bubble but Americans don't look "down"
Nick> on people who speak broken English. Most Americans speak
Nick> terrible English anyway (ask any school teacher) and with an
Nick> increasing number of citizens whose first language is not
Nick> English, no one with an ounce of intelligence would make
Nick> these sorts of snap judgements about the character of those
Nick> who don't know the language perfectly.
Gee. Where do you live? In the middle of nowhere? You probably need to
get out more.
>> Lately, a Texas judge even went as far as accusing a Mother
>> child-abuse because she only spoke Spanish to her 5-year-old
>> daughter. The judge's argument was that the child would end up
>> to be a maid if she didn't learn to speak English.
Nick> First off, I have trouble believing that a child-abuse
Nick> complaint was filed over speaking a language other than
You really need to read more instead of sitting in front of TV all day.
I saw the case in the Newsweek magazine. This case was also a hot
topic in several mailing list and newsgroups (eg., misc.kids).
Nick> English to a 5 year old.. Here in L.A., you would have to
Nick> imprison 40% of the parents if such an act was illegal.
Nick> Second, that's Texas for you....
Quite a large number of population in Taxes speaks Spanish. That is also
the reason why this case is so shocking. For your information, the judge
"accused" the Mother child-abuse because. According to his opinion, the
Mother is setting up the child to be suitable for only the low-wage type of
jobs such as a maid. He ordered the Mother to speak only English to her
daughter.
>> Why do Americans have such a mentality that one's intelligence
>> has direct relationship with one's abillity to speak English?
Nick> How many years have you lived in the U.S. in order to have
Nick> the data to make that sort of statement? Please, feel free
Nick> to complain about our politics, our foreign policy, our
Nick> stands on human rights, our art and media, our environmental
Nick> record, etc., etc., but please, withhold comment about
Nick> American "mentality" until you've had a chance to really
Nick> explore what that means and talk to and live with the people
Nick> across this country. Watching our awful exported movies and
Nick> junk television shows is not an acceptable substitute for
Nick> truly understanding the United States and the people who
Nick> live here.
Hmm, My Father, an English speaker with prefect grammar and heavy accent,
has been here for 50 years. Me? People often ask me if I am a second
generation Asian American. I have been in the US for 12 years, probably
know more about average American than you have known ... judge from the
attitude you have.
Nick> I agree that we could do a better job of teaching our
Nick> children how to speak, read, and write in languages other
Nick> than English. Hopefully, we're moving in that direction.
Nick> And I find recent political movements towards making English
Nick> our official national language (unlike many countries, the
Nick> U.S. does not have an "official" language) both a disturbing
Nick> trend and a diversion from more important issues. But do
Nick> most Americans consider someone who is learning English to
Nick> be sub-humans? Of course not.
Not a sub-human. Just a less intelligent human. I have seen this
attitude so often that I am almost convinced that it is part of the
American WASP culture.
Nick> Just had to say something. Your intentions to set up a
Nick> support group for families with multiple languages in the
I didn't set it up. I am in the mailing list, I am only passing the
information to whoever is interested. You really need to get out more.
Nick> household is admirable and no doubt acutely needed both here
Nick> in the U.S. and in countries across the world. But don't
Nick> paint all of the U.S., and everyone in it, as some kind of
Nick> neo-nazi elitist pig in order to promote your program.
Charlotte
br0...@bingsuns.cc.binghamton.edu
: < stuff deleted >
: If the above had happend it would have been headline news all over
: America. But lets pretend for a moment it did happin as you heard it.
: The judge is at least partially right. America is a single lanquage
: country and if you can not speak English you will not get chosen at a
: job interview. Plain and simple. If I am interviewing an engineer for
: employment at my company, how am I supposed to know if he/she has any
: sense at all if I can not talk to them or understand them? I will not
: assume he/she is not intelligent, just that I can not communicate with
: them. Therefore they will not get hired. Too bad, but I can not sit in
: my office with a Chiniese/english dictionary to give job assignents out
: for projects.
: Don't speak english in USA? No good jobs. period. We will usually NOT
: give much creedence to good grades etc, without a personal interview.
: And if you do not speak English their can be not personal interview.
Surprisingly enough, the incident did happen ( although I thought it
happened in southern CA ). In fact, a whole show was dedicated to
this on one of the more respected radio talk shows about a couple
months back. Anyhow, it is hard for a single-language speaking
American to understand the mentality behind trying to teach a child a
second language ( any language ) in America. First of all, to
accomplish that the process must start early, as early as the child
can start to babble. There are more than one approach to this: e.g.
1. teach the child only the other language before school age, so
that he/she can master the language before English is taught; 2. teach
the child both English and the other language at the same time, but
this may slow down the learning of either language slightly.
Regardless of the method used, the child will have full ability to
learn English once he/she starts grade school. How many kids do you
know who attended grade schools in the states are deficient in the
English language ( not including the unfortunates and screw offs of
course )? Incidently, sadly enough, after all the parent's
effort many of these children will choose to abandon the other
language as soon as they are able to converse efficiently.
Although sounding otherwise, I do agree with you for the most part.
One should know the English language if he/she is to live, survive and
make a living in this country. However, keeping children from
learning another language is a close-minded way to encourage and/or
mandate the use of English.
--
W. R. Chan
"No sig yet - maybe some day"
br0...@bingsuns.cc.binghamton.edu
: What amazes me about the Chinese speaking people is there gross
: generalizations.
The gross generalizations is not solely of the Chinese. Anyone who
feels they are treated differently or unfairly will have a tendency
to form an opinion. And, you cannot deny the existence of such
mistreatment. The generalization is however is unfair to the many
decent people who differ from character of the stereotype.
: >W. R. Chan
br0...@bingsuns.cc.binghamton.edu
: You're right, it is wrong to look down upon non-native speakers who speak
: in a broken fashion. I think what pisses some Americans off is when
: non-native speakers make no effort to improve their english while
: living in the US. They may view such individuals as enjoying the
: freedom of the US, but refusing to blend in. I would also assume that
: those who criticize have never actively studied another language. Those
: of us who have know the difficulties in learning it, and would assist
: as we see fit. I, personally, have never looked down upon broken
: English speakers because I can just imagine how it would feel.
: I do, however, wonder why some don't make the effort to improve their
: English, especially if they have resided in the US for many years.
are usually individuals who are too old ( in their opinion ) to learn
the English language. If there is no need to speak the language to
have a life in this country or even get its citizenship, why should
they?
Sung H. Byun
>it is annoying to see yellow skin pretending to be white
>with names like Whitman, John, Jose ...etc...etc..etc.
I do not have english name but if my name is too difficult to pronounce
for non-koreans I would rather have an english name to make life easier.
>So, pretenders, just learn the language OK. Don't pretend to be
>white. Have you guys ever seen Americans, Australians or any western
>people who learn Asian languages, adopt Asians names and use them
>as their own?
As far as I know (limited observation of course) none of people around me
adopted english name simply because they learnt english. But some of them
adopted english name since they settled down in US. To me it is so natural.
I have seen many americans (many of them are missionary) living in korea
having korean names. Some people even adopted korean family name. To me
it looks just fine and natural. I think we went too far in your argument.
Peace,
scg...@bnr.ca
>origin? Is "Fred" a Biblical name that could have been used in Jesus' time?
They involve God in this issue because..hey! You can't argue with
God.
But this FRED here should realize that Christinianity originated
in the Middle East--never see FRED wants to use a Middle-Eastern
name here.
Whitman Tang
> In article <45jnr9$p...@bcarh8ab.bnr.ca>, <scg...@bnr.ca> wrote:
> >it is annoying to see yellow skin pretending to be white
> >with names like Whitman, John, Jose ...etc...etc..etc.
^^^^^^^^^
Yeah what's up with my name? My father gave me this name is all becauz
Whites can't pronounce Chinese names. It has nothin to do with that white
superior thang!
Besides having a name in another language isn't such a big deal.
I have names in Japanese and Korean too, but the point is I am a Chinese.
My name in whatever language don't matter, but what I am is most important.
Whitman or Whit or Waiman or To Sui Bun or.....whatever....
Whit
Ken Nakata
>Ken Nakata (ke...@er6.rutgers.edu) wrote:
>: How about the Black
>: people? Aren't they using English names as well? Are they pretending
>: to be white? Well?
>I don't think the Blacks had a choice. Most of them lost their real
>names back in the slavery days.
No, that's not the point. They could (and some actually did) give
their children African names (given names). I understand even family
names can be changed.
ken
Shane
> :>Excuuuuuse me; maybe you don't judge people like that, but how do you
> :>know how others judge? From my personal experience, most Americans do
> :>look down on broken-English speakers. You can't feel such treatment
>
> Don't worry about the americans too much, they have no right to look down on
> anybodys' English. Being English myself I feel in a very good position to say
> that our counterparts across the pond speak completely broken English.
> Broken, busted, caput.
> Not English.
Not too sure that English people can exactly start throwing these kinds
of stones in this particular glass house...
Some of the worst spoken English I've ever heard has come from the mouths
of Britons...
Shane
zhang zhiyao
#zhang zhiyao (alex...@ipp-garching.mpg.de) wrote:
#: The name in my passport is "Alexander Chih-Yao Teo". But I post to USENET
#: under my Chinese name "Zhang Zhiyao".
#Why? Just wondering.
Um, why not? I consider it as much my name as what I have in my passport.
And I have no trouble with people calling me by either in conversation or
by email.
zhang zhiyao
#So my question is, what is it about Europeans (read, French) that makes
#them so unwilling to speak English, even when they know its the only
#language you are going to be able to converse in together?
Well, why SHOULD anyone speak to you in English anyway? And why do people
assume that just because Europeans are Caucasian, they therefore MUST BE
ABLE to speak English? I think that you should get your thinking straight.
There is a HUGE difference between Caucasian and English-speaking.
On another note, I have had the complete opposite experience to yours in
many European countries. Just because I look Oriental people often assume
that I am a complete idiot incapable of understanding anything not in
whatever-my-language-is and/or Mickey-Mouse-English. Never mind how long
have lived where.
Yes, I include France as one of these countries that I speak of.
Fair enough, the USA is the present world leader economically, politically
etc. But really, why do so many people assume that they can plop themselves
anywhere in the world and expect others to speak to them in English?
amazed, alex
zhang zhiyao
# ..... I think what pisses some Americans off is when
# non-native speakers make no effort to improve their english while
# living in the US. They may view such individuals as enjoying the
# freedom of the US, but refusing to blend in.....
First replace "America" with "Malaysia".
Replace then "English" with "Bahasa Malaysia".
Kevin took pains to say that he is just playing Hermes' role. Allow me to
stress most strongly that I too am playing a mere Mercury.
and please don't shoot the message-bearers, alex
PS> I apologize to Kevin for using his words to highlight a point in one
of the news-groups that this is cross-posted to.
Shane
> No, what pisses me off is native born English speakers who can't speak the
> damned language. I don't want no double negatives, and I ain't going to
> put up with no hick-speak. I don't care how irrational it is, if someone
> speaks like a complete moron I will assume he is a complete moron. I'm no
> English teacher, but native speakers should at least come close.
I worked with a person in California (for a short time) who barely spoke
English at all - his native language being Spanish of the Mexican variety.
He was born in East L.A. - like the movie. Never lived anywhere but Los
Angeles, where he did not NEED to speak English, for the most part. He
could barely communicate in English, though in his 20s (the fact he was a
real *bendejo* only added to the joy of working with him) and, as far as
my more limited Spanish vocabulary would allow me to determine, he was
just as much of a moron in Spanish as in English. I don't think this is a
particularly good state of affairs - wonder how he made it through an
American high school without learning English? On second thought, it's
not all that surprising.
Shane
Rebecca Wan
: In <45mcp9$8...@nuscc.nus.sg> art2...@cobra.nus.sg (Rebecca Wan) writes:
: >find out what when the next train to Madrid was and if it was a sleeper,
: >we line up for about half an hour and the first thing the person says the
: >moment we open our mouths with "What time..." is "No Engleeeeeesh!!" in a
: Did you try using Chinese? Why did English come to your mind
: first and not Chinese? Say supposed now you're in Korea, and you're
: buying a train ticket and you don't speak Korean, what's the first language
: that comes to your mind that you'd use? English? Again? And not
: Chinese? Why?
Because I was in France, and I think the French have some knowledge of
the English language? I noticed when I was in England that during the
summer holidays a number of groups of French schoolchildren were
holidaying in English tourist spots. I have also seen independent young
French people travelling in England by themselves at hostels. They spoke
English too, though badly. I'm speaking from a utilitarian point of
view, if they don't understand English, I doubt they would understand
Mandarin, though I'm not devaluing the latter language.
: >So my question is, what is it about Europeans (read, French) that makes
: >them so unwilling to speak English, even when they know its the only
: >language you are going to be able to converse in together?
: The Koreans and Japanese read some Chinese Characters too? But
: one would not try using Chinese in Seoul or Tokyo. Maybe one could try
: French or Deutsch, for after all, many Japanese who go thru University
: learn some "DO-I-TI" (Deustch).
: What's my point here? Well,..., English has become the intermediate
: language between two foreigners? I speak English to Koreas and Japanese
Well, it depends on which foreigners, doesn't it? Why would I speak
Mandarin to a French person in a small French town like Arras, where I
was, if the purose was to hope that somehow he would understand what I
meant by :Is there a post office nearby? This is not a matter of wanting to
be white, or pretending to be Western, etcetc, its a matter of
wanting to be understood, and as my French sucks to high heaven, I had to
depend on the only other alternative I had.
By the way, I did travel for a very short while with another young
Korean, and he used English to communicate as well.
: becos I don't speak Korean or Nihon-go, even in their native lands.
: Two Chinese in US speak English to each other in Quebec? Huh? And do
: you wanna know why? Because one is from Beijing and the other from HK.
: Now even all pilots in the world have to learn some English...why not
: Deutsch, or Japanese? Well, I don't know...perhaps a century from now,
: we'll all be using Japanese or Chinese...
I certainly hope so. Then I can give some of those snotty French people
a fluent piece of my mind!
Michael Clark
>It is nice to learn English or any other languages BUT
>it is annoying to see yellow skin pretending to be white
>with names like Whitman, John, Jose ...etc...etc..etc.
who is pretending to be white? what's wrong with adopting a western
name? Just be more appreciating, you asshole.
>So, pretenders, just learn the language OK. Don't pretend to be
>white. Have you guys ever seen Americans, Australians or any western
>people who learn Asian languages, adopt Asians names and use them
>as their own?
Asian people adopt western names just to make it easier for white
assholes like you.
>Why, does western names make you guys more superior?
who said so?
Paxon Hou
: You're right, it is wrong to look down upon non-native speakers who speak
: in a broken fashion. I think what pisses some Americans off is when
: non-native speakers make no effort to improve their english while
: living in the US. They may view such individuals as enjoying the
: freedom of the US, but refusing to blend in. I would also assume that
: those who criticize have never actively studied another language. Those
: of us who have know the difficulties in learning it, and would assist
: as we see fit. I, personally, have never looked down upon broken
: English speakers because I can just imagine how it would feel.
: I do, however, wonder why some don't make the effort to improve their
: English, especially if they have resided in the US for many years.
br0...@bingsuns.cc.binghamton.edu responded:
How do you improve on something that you have no knowledge of? These
are usually individuals who are too old ( in their opinion ) to learn
the English language. If there is no need to speak the language to
have a life in this country or even get its citizenship, why should
they?
First of all, I myself do not automatically look down on
somebody whose English sounds less than "authentic," for lack of a better
term. I'll give credit to anybody who makes an honest effort
within the best of their abilities/circumstances to improve their
English speaking ability.
I agree with Kelvin Booth's statement about those who "refuse to
blend in." And I would like to make some additions of my own. First of
all, I do not intend to collectively label an entire race due to some
actions of an individual. Anybody from any race can and may have done the
same things. I am only referring to SPECIFIC INDIVIDUALS whom
I have seen doing these things.
Now then-- in my experience, it seems at those who seem to speak
the most "broken" English are those hard-core ultra-nationalistic
supremacists who have immigrated to the US from other countries. These
characters are the ones who I have seen to behave rudely to anyone who is
not of their particular ethnicity or speaks their particular language
(for example, I have seen Mandarin speaking people look down on Cantonese
speaking people, Chinese people behave rudely to Koreans, Chinese who are
disappointed that Thailand and Vietnamese languages do not use Chinese
writing, or that Korean does not use enough).
These characters also tend to spend a lot of time preaching about
the demise of the US while evangelizing the superiority of their own
specific country and language above all others in the world, while refusing
to acknowledge that there do exist problems with their own cultures.
As another example, one "1.5 generation Korean" poster from another
thread a while back has expressed great frustration at his older brother who,
along with other Korean friends, claim that "all White men deserve a beating,
while at the same time, lusting over Christie Brinkley."
As for these people I have described, they do fit the description
of "refusing to blend in." But not stopping at this, they then proceed
to flaunt their own language in front of others who don't speak it. I
have no problem with those who speak a different language from myself,
but I do take offense when they start nitpicking at English, saying that
it is "fucked up," and that their own so-and-so language will be the
most important language spoken in the world, so who gives a shit about
speaking English well?
Are these experiences of mine similar to anything those of you
out there have experienced? I think it is for these reasons that people
may have a great adversity toward "FOB-ism" and look down on those who speak
less than "authentic" English. I suppose in a way, the the desire to
blend in and the effort taken to learn to speak any language very well, shows
that the person is open-minded and has good will toward other races.
Of course, I do know people who speak less than "authentic"
English, but I do not look down on them, and some of them are actually
good friends of mine. They do not display the negative behaviors which I
have described above, so I will not respect them any less. We just have
to learn to tell the difference between an honest good-willed desire to
learn, and a stubborn racist supremacist attitude toward a different
culture/language. We must not treat unjustly those who are good-willed
and are doing the best they can to learn.
Paxon Hou
John T. Dillworth III
>scg...@bnr.ca in <soc.culture.malaysia> :
>#It is nice to learn English or any other languages BUT
>#it is annoying to see yellow skin pretending to be white
>#with names like Whitman, John, Jose ...etc...etc..etc.
>
>#So, pretenders, just learn the language OK. Don't pretend to be
>#white. Have you guys ever seen Americans, Australians or any western
>#people who learn Asian languages, adopt Asians names and use them
>#as their own?
>
>#Why, does western names make you guys more superior?
>
>
>
>Let me just put the foot in the door before a whole lot of people waste
>time and bandwidth flaming this looney.
>
>
>People with inferiority complexes are best advised to seek professional
>help rather than to broadcast their problems on USENET for the world to
>read and laugh at.
Sir,
Thank you very much for a breath of intelligence, and a balanced
viewpoint. This is my first time in this newsgroup and I have been
shocked at the incredible level of outright hostility that I have seen
tonight in far too many of the posts that I've read.
I am trying to teach myself Japanese and I joined this group in order to
hopefully enhance my learning experience. I thought that the name of this
newsgroup was "soc.culture.japan" not "alt.race.hate"! And, least anyone
think that I am pointing a finger at any one group or culture, I am truly
upset by all the negative, cruel, hateful messages from everyone who
composed such a virulent post.
Earlier I responded to what I thought was an abnormal post and now I'm
sorry that I didn't just keep my mouth shut (or my fingers quiet if you
will).
Domo Arigato
johnd (The Elder)
John T. Dillworth III
>In article <45mc5v$l...@ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>,
>Raymond Benne <be...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>>In <45m8rr$a...@bingnet1.cc.binghamton.edu>
>>br0...@bingsuns.cc.binghamton.edu () writes:
>>>
>>>Charlotte Chen (cc...@mugu.gte.com) wrote: What amazes me
>>>: about the Americans is that they look DOWN on people who speak
>>broken English.
>>
>>What amazes me about the Chinese speaking people is there gross
>^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
>This is what we call "Pot.Kettle.Black" (Yau Hau Wah Yan, Mo Hau Wah
>Chi Kay). I hope you can find out your own mistake. Ray. Oh, you cant,
>okay, I will highlight it for ya.
>
>>[. .. .]
>>R. Benne
>>Cleveland Ohio USA (frequent traveler to Malaysia)
>
>Ming " Frequent shopper in Ohio. I help your local economy so thank me for
>that. :) " Yeung
>
>
>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
>Ming J. Yeung (email : tri...@seanet.com)
>URL : http://www.seanet.com/users/tricom
>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Ming J. Yeung,
That was a very Gestapo-ish trick you just pulled. Raymond Benne wrote
the line you quoted alright (including the spelling error(s) you are
snobbishly pointing out), but what anyone reading YOUR post would not
know is that in Mr. Benne's very next sentence, he pointed out that the
statement that he made. and that you quoted, was a very ridiculous
generalization.
Journalists here in the US, and certainly elsewhere, have used this dirty
trick since the first printing press was inported. It's called "quoting
out of context" and you should be majoring in journalism since you've
managed to learn the art so well!
johnd (The Elder)
br0...@bingsuns.cc.binghamton.edu
: I worked with a person in California (for a short time) who barely spoke
: English at all - his native language being Spanish of the Mexican variety.
: He was born in East L.A. - like the movie. Never lived anywhere but Los
: Angeles, where he did not NEED to speak English, for the most part. He
: could barely communicate in English, though in his 20s (the fact he was a
: real *bendejo* only added to the joy of working with him) and, as far as
: my more limited Spanish vocabulary would allow me to determine, he was
: just as much of a moron in Spanish as in English. I don't think this is a
: particularly good state of affairs - wonder how he made it through an
: American high school without learning English? On second thought, it's
: not all that surprising.
to point out that this situation is rare ( if existent at all ) among
Chinese Americans. I have yet met a US born Chinese that has a
deficiency in English ( although there are many that could barely
count in Chinese ). As far as I can determine, there could be a
couple of reasons for this. First, Chinese is found to be a more
difficult language to learn and maintain than English and kids are
usually lazy in general as they would use whatever is easier to
communicate. Secondly, it is traditional that success in life is
important to a child's future in a Chinese family. Given the
opportunities available in the US, it's a goal to encourage or force
the children to have a good education and sustain the best grade
possible. This applies independent of the family financial and educational
status. Therefore, proficiency in English is always found among ABC's.
As these kids get older, with the help of lack of parent involvement
in school due to long working hours,
some get involved with the wrong crowd and
others just let the screw-off nature take over like in any society. But,
the ability to use the English language remains.
br0...@bingsuns.cc.binghamton.edu
: Or the double negative could be a Chinese influence.
FYI ( if you don't know it already ), it is proper ( though not as
common ) to use double negatives in Chinese, but it would take on
meanings of double negative ( which is an emphasized positive ).
Double negatives are never used in Chinese in the same sense that
it is used in street English - emphasized negative ( although
the Cantonese dialect certainly has its share of its slangs ).
OTOH, when a double negative is found in Spanish in certain sentences
like "no tango nada (sp?)" ( I don't have nothing ) it is meant to say
I don't have anything. It is improper gramma to use single negative in that
instance.
br0...@bingsuns.cc.binghamton.edu
: br0...@bingsuns.cc.binghamton.edu responded:
: are usually individuals who are too old ( in their opinion ) to learn
: the English language. If there is no need to speak the language to
: have a life in this country or even get its citizenship, why should
: they?
: Of course, I do know people who speak less than "authentic"
: English, but I do not look down on them, and some of them are actually
: good friends of mine. They do not display the negative behaviors which I
: have described above, so I will not respect them any less. We just have
: to learn to tell the difference between an honest good-willed desire to
: learn, and a stubborn racist supremacist attitude toward a different
: culture/language. We must not treat unjustly those who are good-willed
: and are doing the best they can to learn.
First, my counterpost was written in a sarcastic sense. Please reread
it. When I talked about no knowledge, I was referring to the refusal to
learn thus no knowledge. From your long post, I am convinced that
this subthread is not about you and others like you. Just the fact
that you have good friends who were from overseas and who speak less
than perfect English shows that it is indeed the case. However, I can
assure that you are not a true representation of the general American
population. Let me tell you, making friends in America with a strong
accent is not easy unless we pretend to be like them ( the individuals
who would resent you otherwise, of course ) and drop our own cultural
inheritence. I sure hope that this is not the blending in that you
have referred to. This resentment however may not imply
discrimination. With some, it could be that people are just
uncomfortable being around culture that they are unfamiliar with.
br0...@bingsuns.cc.binghamton.edu
: Sir,
: Thank you very much for a breath of intelligence, and a balanced
: viewpoint. This is my first time in this newsgroup and I have been
: shocked at the incredible level of outright hostility that I have seen
: tonight in far too many of the posts that I've read.
: I am trying to teach myself Japanese and I joined this group in order to
: hopefully enhance my learning experience. I thought that the name of this
: newsgroup was "soc.culture.japan" not "alt.race.hate"! And, least anyone
: think that I am pointing a finger at any one group or culture, I am truly
: upset by all the negative, cruel, hateful messages from everyone who
: composed such a virulent post.
: Earlier I responded to what I thought was an abnormal post and now I'm
: sorry that I didn't just keep my mouth shut (or my fingers quiet if you
: will).
expect to have flame war going on all the time. Don't get the threads
scare you off though. Something constructive do occasionally come out
of these soc ngs. BTW, your post was cross-posted to a number of soc ngs.
Richard Walker
: Mother is setting up the child to be suitable for only the low-wage type of
: jobs such as a maid. He ordered the Mother to speak only English to her
: daughter.
Pardon me for injecting fact into an emotional debate, but that was NOT
the order. The order was to speak English, not to stop speaking Spanish.
The mother was refusing to speak any English to the child.
It should also be noted that this was in the midst of a nasty custody
fight, where all kinds of luny accusations of sexual abuse, spousal abuse,
child abuse are as routine as a burger and fries. In the end, the judge
apologized for the stupid way he handled things. Handle enough nasty
custody fights and you'll slip up sooner or later and say something really
stupid.
The mother was not being accused of a criminal act by the Protective
Services folks. And don't forget, the judge doesn't even NEED a reason
to grant custody to the father or the mother, or do joint custody, its
really his call. Custody battles are always nasty, and both sides of
the fight usually throw everything including the kitchen sink into the
battle.
--
"My sister tends to think the end justifies the means;
But then she gets so wrapped up in the means, she forgets
what the end was!"
- Kosuke Fujishima's "Oh my Goddess" [Japanese Manga]
lagraula xavier
: sh...@temasek.teleview.com.sg (Sheik Mustafa) wrote:
: >Q1. Why would a Catholic have to have names which are European or "white" in
: >origin? Is "Fred" a Biblical name that could have been used in Jesus' time?
: Many Catholics like to be named after saints. I'm sure there's a St.
: Frederic somewhere
Right. But I know nothing about him...
: >Q2. Can a Catholic have a baptism name that is Chinese instead?
: Why not? But most of Christianity were basically Western
: European-based religions throughout the last few centuries.
Well, it would seem 'logical' that a religion which names its members (surely
not the right word. Sorry, I'm French...) from its saints would refuse a Chinese
name for a baptism. But this is seen more as a tradition than an obligation.
It would be stupid to force a Chinese Catholic to give WEuropean names to his
children, wouldn't it ? =) That's what happened in Africa, (remember the
colonies?) but 'things have changed'.
: >Q3. If yes, can a white Catholic be baptised with a Chinese/non-white name?
: If their is a St Sheik then it's possible it might happen. But then
: most of them would still mispronounce it.
In fact, it depends: the inertia comes from the governments. In France, it would
be hard for French natives to give their children Chinese names. They would
have to justify their choice because the government doesn't want the child's
first name to cause him trouble. Of course, if at least one of the parent is
Chinese, it is much more easy. IMHO it's a pity to be living in a world where
a 'white face' with a 'yellow name' would be looked at with suspicion, but
I must admit there are many places where this is the case. What about being
given the opportunity to change one's first name at 18 years old? Could be fun.
Besides all the troubles it would cause, of course. ;)
--
Xavier Lagraula
xlag...@ufrima.imag.fr
Do never forget:
"If debugging is the process of removing bugs from a program,
Programming is the process of creating bugs..."
Y.S.F. Kong
On 15 Oct 1995, Sheik Mustafa wrote:
> : FRED.
> Hmmmmmmmm.....
> [detracting a little here]
>
> Q1. Why would a Catholic have to have names which are European or "white" in
> origin? Is "Fred" a Biblical name that could have been used in Jesus' time?
All Catholics are usually baptised with the name of a saint.It is just
pure history that almost all the saints originated from the west and the
middle-east.For instance,I am named after St.Fredrick,others such as
John,Matthew,Mark etc,are also names of people who lived many centuries
ago and were made saints.Even in islam,you have names like Mariam which
is a variation of Mary.
> Q2. Can a Catholic have a baptism name that is Chinese instead?
Well,if ever there was a chinese catholic who was made a saint,then
yes,Problem is,there aren't any.let me explain further this thing about
saint's names.When a Catholic is baptised,he adopts a saint's name so
that the saint becomes his patron saint who will protect that person.
> Q3. If yes, can a white Catholic be baptised with a Chinese/non-white name?
As I said before,it all hinges on whether or not there is a saint with a
particular saint.For example,the names Jesus,Moses and David are not
actually white names i.e.European or US, but they are jewish names.All 3
lived in the middle east.
> Sheik.
> Singapore.
>
> No offence or anything; just a thought....
None taken,in fact,thanks for asking...
FRED
Carl Wright cc0197
respond to the sentiment of the question. People coming into a different
country have all been confronted with the need to make themselves
understood in the language. Since different people have different
abilities in languages, this leads to different levels of ability to
communicate. Difficulty in communication doesn't point to any deficiency
in any other area of learning. I am in a multi-cultural Toastmaster's
group in southern California, and we have all sorts of people with all
levels of skill in communication. The most popular speaker in our group
is a Vietnamese man who has basic problems with American-English useage,
but whose sincerity and good faith are so overwhelming, everyone looks
forward to hearing him speak. This is not just due to our familiarity
with him, he has also won prizes in local Toastmaster's contests. There
is a lot to say about attitude and intent, and I hope all people who
read messages in any of the groups this is going out to will please try
and consider that.
I normally don't have much problem with accents and imperfect English
(OK, if you insist, American-English) skills since I am from the
southeastern United States and speak imperfectly according to a lot of
people who try to understand me, but I remember the most difficult speech
I ever had to deal with was a Puerto Rican friend I had in New York. He
was born and raised in New York, but his accent was so heave, I found
myself adking him to repeat himself many times. He was a great guy and
a good friend, just hard to understand.
Carl
_____________________________________________________________________________
Disclammer...Disclamur...Whatever...If I can't spell Disclaimer, it's obvious
I don't speak for 3M.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Rebecca Wan
: Rebecca Wan (art2...@cobra.nus.sg) in <soc.culture.china> :
: #So my question is, what is it about Europeans (read, French) that makes
: #them so unwilling to speak English, even when they know its the only
: #language you are going to be able to converse in together?
: Well, why SHOULD anyone speak to you in English anyway? And why do people
: assume that just because Europeans are Caucasian, they therefore MUST BE
: ABLE to speak English? I think that you should get your thinking straight.
: There is a HUGE difference between Caucasian and English-speaking.
I know that. I think you should read posts properly before you reply to
them.
I never said that Europeans should speak to me in English just
because they're Caucasian. By the way, being "European" doesn't
automatically make you a Caucasian either. Europe is an abstract
"nationality" type of classification. (a bit like "Singaporean"; and note,
I'm not saying that the word denotes nationality either, nor am I saying that
"singaporean" is an abstract term. the word abstract was for "european.")
I think that it is reasonable to expect the people I mentioned in my
examples to be able to speak English. I've given reasons. Go read them
again.
Y.S.F. Kong
On Wed, 18 Oct 1995, Brian Harmer wrote:
> On Tue, 17 Oct 1995 18:27:24 +0100, "Y.S.F. Kong" <ys...@le.ac.uk>
> >All Catholics are usually baptised with the name of a saint.
> (snip)
> No, not all Catholics.... this is just a tradition which is not
> binding. The French government used to insist on it, and since the
> missionaries were people of extraordinary zeal, the tradition hangs on
> a little stronger in "mission" countries than it does in old Catholic
> countries.
Well,I did say "Usually" not always,but thanks for your comments,I was
speaking from an Asian point of view as the guy who asked the qs. was a
Muslim from S'pore,but you are correct to say that mission countries do
hang on to the tradition stronger,probably because we are just starting
to develop the religion which was introduced to us only in the 16th
century and only became popular in the 20th century,before
that,christianity was seen as a white religion for whites only.
> >> Q3. If yes, can a white Catholic be baptised with a Chinese/non-white name?
> >
> >As I said before,it all hinges on whether or not there is a saint with a
> >particular saint.
>
> Again I disagree. There is nothing in canon law which requires this.
> It is only a pious tradition.
Absolutely correct,my apologies for not consulting Canon law first.It is
the norm and the tradition in Asian countries to adopt a saint's name,but
it is not a rule or law.
FRED.
hos
>
>
>On 15 Oct 1995, Sheik Mustafa wrote:
>
>> : FRED.
>> Hmmmmmmmm.....
>> [detracting a little here]
>>
>> Q1. Why would a Catholic have to have names which are European or "white" in
>> origin? Is "Fred" a Biblical name that could have been used in Jesus' time?
>
>All Catholics are usually baptised with the name of a saint.It is just
>pure history that almost all the saints originated from the west and the
>middle-east.For instance,I am named after St.Fredrick,others such as
>John,Matthew,Mark etc,are also names of people who lived many centuries
>ago and were made saints.Even in islam,you have names like Mariam which
>is a variation of Mary.
>
>> Q2. Can a Catholic have a baptism name that is Chinese instead?
>
>Well,if ever there was a chinese catholic who was made a saint,then
>yes,Problem is,there aren't any.let me explain further this thing about
>saint's names.When a Catholic is baptised,he adopts a saint's name so
>that the saint becomes his patron saint who will protect that person.
>
>
>As I said before,it all hinges on whether or not there is a saint with a
>actually white names i.e.European or US, but they are jewish names.All 3
>lived in the middle east.
>
>> Sheik.
>> Singapore.
>>
>> No offence or anything; just a thought....
>
>None taken,in fact,thanks for asking...
>
> FRED
has it's origins in the Bible or shall I say the Jewish
language? In fact a very great deal of popular names are named
after Jesus's deciples: Peter, James, John, Matthew and
etc....
Elizabeth Kunhye Lee
<Oh, dear. Somehow Sheik Mustafa's post got erased. He wrote about
Catholic naming of Western names.
My thoughts on this:
Lots of people assume that my name "Elizabeth" is a so-called American
name, and that I (or even my parents) dubbed me after the Queen of
England or someone like that so's we can assimilate better. In a way,
it makes me feel somewhat defensive and disagreeable, as that could not
have been farther from the truth.
I have been called Elizabeth (actually, Eliza) since my days in Korea
bec. lots of ppl in my family (staunchly Catholic) use their baptismal
names. I was named after Saint Elizabeth, mother of St. John the Baptist
and cousin to Mary. She was, by the way, Hebrew.
One might argue that "Elizabeth" is a Western variation of the name, but
in actuality, in Korea the name is pronounced "Elisabeth," with an 's.'
John is pronounced Yo-Han (which is definitely not the American version).
So much for the personal saga of my name. I just wanted to point out
(therapy!) that a lot of non-Asian names are not necessarily "white,"
whatever that means, but are wholly due to religious influence.
I could very well have been named for any one of the vast number of
Asian martyrs.
It would be impertinence to assume that "Anne" is called that bec. she
wants to be 'white,' when she was named for an Asian saint (who may
have been named after the mother of Mary, again not strictly a 'white'
person).
Comments welcome,
Eliza.
"Named after the Ma of St. John! Talk about
pressures and expectations."
: >Q1. Why would a Catholic have to have names which are European or "white" in
: >origin? Is "Fred" a Biblical name that could have been used in Jesus' time?
: >Q2. Can a Catholic have a baptism name that is Chinese instead?
: >Q3. If yes, can a white Catholic be baptised with a Chinese/non-white name?
: As far as I know, the Catholic Church likes people to use the names of
: saints, but I don't think they insist.
: The lack of Chinese saints names, I suppose, reflects the relatively slow
: spread of Catholicism amongst Chinese speakers.
t
: --
: _________________________________________________________________________
: / <*> I'll design a proper signature real soon /
: /__/ . / /_ _/ BillT t...@np.ac.sg http://www.np.ac.sg:9080/~twa /
: /__/_/_/_/ _/____________________________________________________________/
fl...@cc.memphis.edu
> On 15 Oct 1995, Timmins William Anthony wrote:
>> The lack of Chinese saints names, I suppose, reflects the relatively slow
>> spread of Catholicism amongst Chinese speakers.
>
> i.e.20th century, development. It takes decades or sometimes even
> centuries for a person to be canonised as a saint.
There is also the problem that in order to be canonised, you
have first, got to be a catholic... and in order to be catholic,
you're going to be baptised with a catholic name... So this becomes
the chicken and egg problem then...
-Tai
Brian Harmer
wrote:
>
>
>On 15 Oct 1995, Sheik Mustafa wrote:
>
>> : FRED.
>> Hmmmmmmmm.....
>> [detracting a little here]
>>
>> Q1. Why would a Catholic have to have names which are European or "white" in
>> origin? Is "Fred" a Biblical name that could have been used in Jesus' time?
>
>All Catholics are usually baptised with the name of a saint.
(snip)
No, not all Catholics.... this is just a tradition which is not
binding. The French government used to insist on it, and since the
missionaries were people of extraordinary zeal, the tradition hangs on
a little stronger in "mission" countries than it does in old Catholic
countries.
>
>> Q2. Can a Catholic have a baptism name that is Chinese instead?
>
>Well,if ever there was a chinese catholic who was made a saint,then
>yes,
The real answer is yes, no ifs or buts. The only barrier to this is an
excess of personal piety on the part of the parents.
>> Q3. If yes, can a white Catholic be baptised with a Chinese/non-white name?
>
>As I said before,it all hinges on whether or not there is a saint with a
>particular saint.
Again I disagree. There is nothing in canon law which requires this.
It is only a pious tradition.
Brian M Harmer - Department of Communication Studies
Victoria University of Wellington, New Zealand
email brian....@vuw.ac.nz http://www.vuw.ac.nz/~bharmer/brian.htm
How can I be sure I succeeded
- if I can't remember what I was trying to do? - Ashleigh Brilliant
Thomas Wong
This seems to be a very interesting subject as judged by the number of
articles. I'm the author of "American Communication Training - A Practical
Guide for Foreign-Born Professionals," and I invite you to visit my homepage
to read the book. The chapter on "Mastering the Verbal Accent" will be
particularly useful to anyone who wishes to speak better American English.
Sincerely,
Thomas Wong
-----------------------------------------
http://www.transcore.com
Communication Resources for Foreign-Born Professionals
alt.self-improve FAQ
Terence Wong
<snip>
>So my question is, what is it about Europeans (read, French) that makes
>them so unwilling to speak English, even when they know its the only
>language you are going to be able to converse in together?
Ouch! That sounded like a bad experience.
From what I know, the French are extremely nationalistic. So they love
people to speak their language, even if it is only a few broken words.
Au revoir. ;)
--
Terence
t...@cs.mu.oz.au
scg...@bnr.ca
>
>
>On 15 Oct 1995, Timmins William Anthony wrote:
>
>> As far as I know, the Catholic Church likes people to use the names of
>> saints, but I don't think they insist.
>
>absolutely essential,I once knew this guy originally from China who is
>teaching Mandarin to mature students,he is a Muslim,yet he has a normal
>Chinese name without any Mohd,Sheik,Abdul or whatever.The same I think
>goes for any religion.
>
>> The lack of Chinese saints names, I suppose, reflects the relatively slow
>> spread of Catholicism amongst Chinese speakers.
>
>Well,it is spreading fast in modern times,but it is a relatively recent
>i.e.20th century, development. It takes decades or sometimes even
>centuries for a person to be canonised as a saint.
>
Why then is this FRED like it so much to have his name canonised as a saint?
Probably this yellow skin thinks that a western name might make him cooler.
Which god of yours says that one must change his name to a western one before
one can be a christian? The western god? Or the " I think I will be cool with a
western name god"?
Jonathan C. Enslin
>>>> Charlotte
>>>You're right, it is wrong to look down upon non-native speakers who speak
>>>in a broken fashion. I think what pisses some Americans off is when
>>>non-native speakers make no effort to improve their english while
>>>living in the US. They may view such individuals as enjoying the
>>>freedom of the US, but refusing to blend in. I would also assume that
>>>those who criticize have never actively studied another language. Those
>>>of us who have know the difficulties in learning it, and would assist
>>>as we see fit. I, personally, have never looked down upon broken
>>>English speakers because I can just imagine how it would feel.
>>>I do, however, wonder why some don't make the effort to improve their
>>>English, especially if they have resided in the US for many years.
>>
>speak English at HOME!!!.
>Whatever the mother wants to speak to the child is THEIR business, be it
>Spanish, French, German, Chinese, C, Pascal, Ada... Others have no right
>to intervene.
>
You're right, but I sure do feel sorry for the children, and I've seen many
of them, who do poorly in school because they DON'T have the background in
English. English is the de facto language of the US. Without a solid
background, you will not be able to succeed in education, commerce, etc.
Parents sure have the right to do what they want, but they can hurt their
child in the long-run.
Jon