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turki meskhebi

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Nana Bukhsianidze

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Mar 18, 1999, 3:00:00 AM3/18/99
to
xalxo!

evro sabchos tsevrobam sakartvelos erti problema dzalian gaamtsvava. es
turk meskhebs exeba. ras fikrobt amis taobaze? tu ar vcdebi shexvedrebi
sakartvelosa da evropashi martis tveshi unda shemdgariko. sainteresoa
azris gamotkma am sakitxze. imitom rom raga movlenebis saboloo
gadastkvetas davelodot da mere gamovtkvat azri, barem axla gvetkva ras
vfikorbt?
sainteresoa ramdenad uarkofiti movlena ikneba turki meskhebis
chamosaxleba sakartveloshi.
saintereso isicaa rom 80 000 -iani ( ricxvebshi dzalian dartsmunebuli ar
var, maxasiatebs mati davitskeba da areva) xalxi uceb 200 000 -300000
masad rogor gadaikca sul 40-50 tseilitsadshi?
sul ar arian kartuli msofmxedvelobis matarebeli? rad undoda mashin merab
kostavas mati chamosaxleba?
samxret sakartvelo titkmis carielia rac araa carieli somxebs ukaviat
xelshi. turki mesebis chamosaxleba somxebs sastikad ar unda atskobdet.
garda amisa tuki sakartvelos megobruli da strategiuli urtiertoba ekneba
turkettan momavalshi mere ra moxda rom es xalxi musulmania? ikneb
pirikit danis zurgshi chamrtkmelisagan dagvicvan da am motrialebul
situaciashi ufro normaluradac moikcnen?
ra enaze laparakoben?
araferi ar vici mat shesaxeb.
vinc icit ikneb getkvat rame?
akaki bakradzis gamotkma maxsovs, rom ra dgesac mat ak shemovushvebt
sakartvelo arsebobas stkvetso. ikneb gadaacharba man?
ra jobia, ertmortsmune ruseti da somxeti ( rasac vxedavt dges arc
maincdamainc ganmogvadgnen) tu titkmis koveltvis megobrulad gantskobili
azrebaijani, strategiuli mnishvnelobis mezobeli turketi?

nana
--


Please remove "NO SPAM" in email address before replying.

Nana Bukhsianidze

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Mar 18, 1999, 3:00:00 AM3/18/99
to
shakro papa wrote:

> >
>
> albat shemovlen
gsmeniat amis shesaxeb rame? ase gadatskvites?

me mgoni ckhovrebis da mushaobis upleba unda mieces kvelas.
> mokalakeoba jerjerobit ara . mitumetes albat bevri matgani kanons
> mokalakeobis shesakheb ar akmakopilebs.

kerdzod ra punktshi?

shakro papa

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Mar 19, 1999, 3:00:00 AM3/19/99
to
In article <36F0CF...@nospammeridianworldservices.com>,

albat shemovlen me mgoni ckhovrebis da mushaobis upleba unda mieces kvelas.


mokalakeoba jerjerobit ara . mitumetes albat bevri matgani kanons

mokalakeobis shesakheb ar akmakopilebs.amas dro unda da tavistavad unda
mokhdes. sruli tavisupleba unda ikos tu vinme kveknis datovebas moisurvebs,
magram siprtkhilea sachiro rom amas erovnuli an religiuri "sarchuli" ar
gamoekeros Shakro II papa

-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
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Maria Axell

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Mar 19, 1999, 3:00:00 AM3/19/99
to
sainteresoa nana tkveni inpormacia
kargi ikneboda sakartveloa mtavrobas djer ,abxazetidan camosyli
ltolvilebistvis miexeda da chemdeg epikra stalinis droindeli
ltolvilebistvis.
saertod ty tyrki -mesxebi arian rato ar mimartaven tyrkets?
ik sakmaod didi teritoriebia da tan ekonomiyrad tyrketi bevrad dzlieria ase
rom ypro advilad gadackvitavs magat problemebs da cyrtebis gamo celaxyl
saxelsac gamoiscoreben.
pativiscemit
marina sakondia

soso

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Mar 19, 1999, 3:00:00 AM3/19/99
to
Nana Bukhsianidze a écrit:

>
> xalxo!
>
> evro sabchos tsevrobam sakartvelos erti problema dzalian gaamtsvava. es
> turk meskhebs exeba. ras fikrobt amis taobaze?
> sainteresoa
> azris gamotkma am sakitxze.
> sainteresoa ramdenad uarkofiti movlena ikneba turki meskhebis
> chamosaxleba sakartveloshi.
> saintereso isicaa rom 80 000 -iani xalxi uceb 200 000 -300000

> masad rogor gadaikca sul 40-50 tseilitsadshi?


nana,
evrosabchochi gaçevrianebis piroba ra tkma unda adamianis uplebebisa
da sxva demokratiuli principebis dacvaa. is aseve agiarebs, rom
saxelmçiposac gaachnia tavisi uplebebi da interesebi. sakartvelo ar aris
valdebuli upirobod cheasrulos kvela motxovna, mitumetes iseti
romlistvisac kvekana aranairad mzad ar aris. sakarvelos xelisupleba unda
miechvios kveknis interesebis chedegian dacvas.

300 000 turki mesxis=>mesxeteliturkis=>Turc Ahďskas=>turkis
=>arakartvelis, dgevandel situaciachi mkop sakartvelochi kaosuri
chamosaxleba, dauchvebelia!!! da ai ratom:

kartvelebi amierkavkasiachi vart 3 693 000 da chevadgent mteli am
regionis mosaxleobis daaxloebit 22%, rac dzalian cotaa.

gadaavlet tvali amierkavkasiis mosaxleobis bolo 40 çlis ststistikas.

1959 1979 1998
GEO. 4 044 000 5 015 000 5 431 000
ARM. 1 763 000 3 031 000 3 794 000
AZE. 3 698 000 6 O28 000 7 625 000

chesabamisad, kartvelebi sakartvelos mosaxleobis 68% chevadgent,
somxebi somxetis 98%
azerebi azerbaijanis 90%
gasatvalisçinebelia isic, rom am 40 çlis ganmavlobachi, sakartvelochi
mosaxleobis raodenobis isedac minimalur zrdachi lomis çili arakartvel
mosaxleobas udevs.

exla çarmovidginot drevandel politikur, ekonomikur, socialur,
kulturul, finansur, apxazur, osur, rusul... kartul, hiper-degradirebul
situaciachi mkop sakartvelochi chamodis 300 000 "kanonieri Jako".
-chedegad mivigebt chemdegs:
uaxloesi 50 çlis ganmavlobachi
kartvelebi chevadgendet ikneba,
amierkavkasiis mosaxleobis 9-7%.
paralelurad chemcirdeba kartvelta çili
sakartvelos teritoriazec da cheizleba
daeces 55-50%-mde.
aset situaciachi cheizleba itkvas ,
rom gvemukreba amierkavkasiis
etnikur umciresobad gadakcevis saprtxe.

chegnebulad kuradgebas ar vamaxvileb imaze, tu ra chedegebs cheizleba
mivagçiot politikuri, socialuri, culturuli, antropologiuri da a.sh.
tvalsazrisit.

ar gamigot, titkos ar mesmodes am ubeduri xalxis mdgomareoba. iko dro,
rodesac sakartvelos cheezlo da iparebda kidec aset xalxs, magram
dgevandeli realoba da sinamdvile sul sxvaa.

chemi azrit sakartvelos xelisuplebam rac cheizleba unda gaachianuros
saboloo gadaçkvetilebis migeba. da saertod sakartvelos mokalakeoba unda
mieces pirovnebas, romelsac sachualod 5 çeli ucxovria sakartvelochi,
flobs enas, erkveva sakartvelos istoriachi da dasakmebulia(vici bevri
kartvelia moklebuli am fufunebas, magram chemi azrit es ase unda ikos).
amas evropa chven gvapatiebs. unda vivargot.

"soso"

soso

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Mar 19, 1999, 3:00:00 AM3/19/99
to
Maria Axell a écrit:

> saertod ty tyrki -mesxebi arian rato ar mimartaven tyrkets?
> ik sakmaod didi teritoriebia da tan ekonomiyrad tyrketi bevrad dzlieria ase
> rom ypro advilad gadackvitavs magat problemebs da cyrtebis gamo celaxyl
> saxelsac gamoiscoreben.
> pativiscemit
> marina sakondia


marina,
turketma karga xania ukve gamotkva es asri. kerzot sakme exeboda
"mozme turkulenovani xalxisadmi daxmarebis gaçevas da mxardacheras."
magram tu ar vcdebi, natkvami natkvamad darcha da turkets konkretuli
nabiji ar gadaudgams. turkets ubralod undoda echvenebina, rom turanuli
solidarobis medrochea. sxvata choris turkets ukvars aseti gamoxtomebi da
xchirad mimartavs gaorebul-"islamur" da "araislamur"-diplomatias, rac ar
unda laikur saxelmçipod mohkondes tavi.

l...@mail.utexas.edu

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Mar 19, 1999, 3:00:00 AM3/19/99
to
soso wrote:

> chegnebulad kuradgebas ar vamaxvileb imaze, tu ra chedegebs cheizleba
> mivagçiot politikuri, socialuri, culturuli, antropologiuri da a.sh.
> tvalsazrisit.

B-no Ioseb

Dziritadad getanxmebit zemot moxseniebul daskvnashi, magram es
"antropolgiuri" bolomde ver gavige. Tu dro geknat da survili, ikneb tsota
detalebshi axsnat tu ra antropologiur saprtxestan aris dakavshirebuli mag
problema? Mesxeteli turkebi "Kromanionebi" arian chvensavit tu sxva
kvesaxeobas miekutvnebian H.sapiens-is parglebshi ? Tu ara....mashin mag
problema ara marto politikur-culturul-socialur mxritaa saintereso, aramed
rogorz chans biollogiuradaz.

L. Darjania


Nana Bukhsianidze

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Mar 19, 1999, 3:00:00 AM3/19/99
to
soso wrote:

> nana,
> evrosabchochi gaçevrianebis piroba ra tkma unda adamianis uplebebisa
> da sxva demokratiuli principebis dacvaa. is aseve agiarebs, rom
> saxelmçiposac gaachnia tavisi uplebebi da interesebi. sakartvelo ar aris
> valdebuli upirobod cheasrulos kvela motxovna, mitumetes iseti
> romlistvisac kvekana aranairad mzad ar aris. sakarvelos xelisupleba unda
> miechvios kveknis interesebis chedegian dacvas.

Btn soso,
ra safudzvelze sheudzlia kvekanas ar misces mis teritoriaze shesvlis
ufleba vinmes?
cxadia, rom sakartvelos sheudzlie ekonomikuri mdgomareobit axsnas raime
mraval atasiani jgufis ver migeba. magram rodesac kerdzo mikalake
sazgvars moadgeba iseti teritoriidan saidanac viza ar schirdeba
shemosvlas (azrebaijanidan viza ar schirdeba tu ar vcdebi) rit unda
daakavon adamianebi ise rom adamianis uflebebi ar shelaxon?
tanac tuki adamians akvs imis sakmarisi tanxa rom saxli aishenos da
icxovros da imushaos, ra pirobit sheidzleba amis ufleba tsaartvan?
me martali gitxrat dzalian maocebs tu ra aseti tavdaveba agmoachndat am
turk mesxebs sakartvelos mimart mashin roca kartvelebi garbian tavianti
samshoblodan? ashkarad unda idges vigac mat ukan. vin laparakobs netav
am xalxis saxelit? martla undat titoeul matgans gaveranebul kvekanashi
icxovron? mashin raa amis mizezi? politikuri gamorchena? tu ikneb
martlac da fesvebis sikvaruli?
me am kitxvebs chems tavsac vusvam...
ra ucnauri kanoni shemougiat mokalakepbaze. 5 tseli imushavoo? anu tu 5
tslis mere cocxali ikneba mashin miscemen mokalakeobas? mushaobashi ra
igulisxmeba? saxelmtsifo datsesebulebebshi tu bazrobaze (selfemployed)?

nana

shakro papa

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Mar 19, 1999, 3:00:00 AM3/19/99
to
In article <36F1FF...@nospammeridianworldservices.com>,

Nana Bukhsianidze <gr...@nospammeridianworldservices.com> wrote:
> shakro papa wrote:
>
> > >
> >
> > albat shemovlen
> gsmeniat amis shesaxeb rame? ase gadatskvites?
ara es varaudia tu es sakitkhi dadga.

> me mgoni ckhovrebis da mushaobis upleba unda mieces kvelas.
> > mokalakeoba jerjerobit ara . mitumetes albat bevri matgani kanons
> > mokalakeobis shesakheb ar akmakopilebs.
>
> kerdzod ra punktshi?

sakartveloshi dabadebuli ar ikneba bevri.de facto skhva kveknis mokalakeebi
arian ukve da uaric ar utkvemt jerjerobit. kvela tavmokvare sakhemtsiposhi
mokalakeobas damsakhureba unda(me ar vici , aramokalake mackhovreblis
shesakheb gvakvs raime kanoni?). tan sheidzleba zogiert matgans ar moeconos
da tcasvla gadatskvitos. adre iko laparaki rom mkholod kartuli orientaciis
da a.sh. shemovushvat. amas veravin gaarkvevs. 1 sakhelmtsipo me mgoni ar
unda chaerios mati sackhovrebeli teritoriis da binebit dakmakopilebis :)
sakitkhshi. visac sadac unda da rogorc unda ik ickhovros gind tbilishi gind
meskhetshi

shakro papa

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Mar 19, 1999, 3:00:00 AM3/19/99
to

> chemi azrit sakartvelos xelisuplebam rac cheizleba unda gaachianuros
> saboloo gadaçkvetilebis migeba. da saertod sakartvelos mokalakeoba unda
> mieces pirovnebas, romelsac sachualod 5 çeli ucxovria sakartvelochi,
> flobs enas, erkveva sakartvelos istoriachi da dasakmebulia(vici bevri
> kartvelia moklebuli am fufunebas, magram chemi azrit es ase unda ikos).
> amas evropa chven gvapatiebs. unda vivargot.
>
> "soso"
>

getankhmebi soso. aris ragac pirobebi romelsac kvela mokalakeobis msurveli
unda akmakopilebdes nebismier sakhemtsiposhi. es pirobebi ar nishnavs
adamianis uplebebis dargvevas da sakartveloc "dabali gobe" aravis ar unda
egonos('minda , shemoval da vickhovreb, ar minda tsaval teritorianad rusetshi
an ...?' principi)

Nana Bukhsianidze

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Mar 20, 1999, 3:00:00 AM3/20/99
to
shakro papa wrote:
es pirobebi ar nishnavs
> adamianis uplebebis dargvevas da sakartveloc "dabali gobe" aravis ar unda
> egonos('minda , shemoval da vickhovreb, ar minda tsaval teritorianad rusetshi
> an ...?' principi)


Tu gavixsenebt rom musulmani mesxebi mxolod da mxolod tavianti uflebis
agdgenas itxoven, ar getskinot da musulmanebi ariano amis gamo mat
majlajunebad starmodgena mxolod isev da isev provinciuli fashizmis
machvenebelia.
chveshi mavans da mavans dzalian exerxeba dakompleksebuli kartveli
xalxisatvis morigi "mtris" dasaxva. chven ki avitacebt kvelafers ase
tsamosrolils da martlac mtrebad vakcevt imat vinc sheidzleba
gakvirvebuli ismens zogierti politikosis an mogvatsis nbodvars.
me arasodes damavitskdeba pirveli mitingi gamartuli osebis shesaxeb.
osi axalgazrdoba pirdapir agshfotebuli da gulmokluli gamodioda: rogor
ambobt amas mtel oss xalxzeo. ara... chveni ena udzvloa. ise movikvetavt
kvelas erti xelis mosmit rogorcc mogveprianeba.
axla paata zakareishvilis statiidan ramodenime amonasters mogartmevt:

--------------------------------------------------------
I assure you that those people are trying to come to Georgia because of
the only reason: they have a genetical feeling of the fact that Georgia
should give them citizenship, while Russia does not want to. After they
get Russian citizenship, no more than 7-8 thousand Meskhi will be
willing to return to Georgia. Thus, to solve the problem of the deported
Meskhi, we need an elementary thing (as well as to solve other
problems): the authorities' willingness and ability. I doubt whether the
Government has any of them.I assure you that those people are trying to
come to Georgia because of the only reason: they have a genetical
feeling of the fact that Georgia should give them citizenship, while
Russia does not want to. After they get Russian citizenship, no more
than 7-8 thousand Meskhi will be willing to return to Georgia. Thus, to
solve the problem of the deported Meskhi, we need an elementary thing
(as well as to solve other problems): the authorities' willingness and
ability. I doubt whether the Government has any of them.

It is surprising that the government, which calls itself democratic, in
fact appears (including its most democratic and reform-minded
representatives) as a follower of a fascist policy. Why? Where is the
democratic process? And what does the decree of Shevardnadze mean - the
State Program of Solving Legal and Social Problems of Deported Meskhi
Repatriated to Georgia, which was signed by the President in December
1996 and according to which a repatriation of 5 thousand Meskhi to
Georgia was to start in 1997 and to continue by several stages till year
2000? Two years have already passed after the decree was signed. The
Meskhi carry out hunger strikes outside the Parliament building,
demanding realisation of the decree. As to the authorities, they let the
police to attack the demonstrations and later, in the nearest radio
interview, express their regret for the tactless behaviour of the
police. But what do you regret for, gentlemen? And why do you think you
should apologise for others? These people start hunger strikes because
of the promise YOU have not kept...
4. From the point of view of violation of human rights, the problem of
Turk Meskhi has had no precedent. The Meskhi are the only group in the
world, which was entirely deported and still is not rehabilitated. I
would like to remind Georgian specialists of human rights protection the
simplest reality of their profession: everyone has the right to live
where the Law allows him/her. The Meskhi have the right to live in
Georgia irrespective of their religion and no one can argue against
this. (miakciet shemdegs kuradgeba: N.B.
If the Georgian, who ruined Rustaveli Avenue in Tbilisi and let Russian
military forces to shell Samegrelo, remain Georgian, why cannot a
person, who by torture and threat was deprived of their God and
mentality, remain Georgian as well? How can we accuse them instead of at
least trying to give them their god and mentality back? ( martlac ras
itkodit amis tsinaagmdeg?n.b.)
5. It is not only impossible to differentiate these people, it is a
crime. It would be the same as discrimination, which is a violation of
human rights and should be punished. The issue should be raised in a
different way: those Meskhi, who should be brought back first and those,
who could return later. According to my opinion, first should come back
those, who will be loyal towards certain demands put to them. The demand
should be following: Meskhi will return to different regions of Georgia
- and should not be changed.

(gamsaxurdiam ra hkna?n.b.)
The attitude of the post-Soviet Gamsakhurdia's government towards those
people is known very well. I will not tell you, because everybody
remembers it, how a new '44 was organised for the Meskhi repatriated to
Georgia. Settled in various places of Georgia, they were gathered on
lorries in one night and again taken to the way of their fathers and
grandfathers.

(ras nishnavs saxeli turki mesxi? da visi mogonilia? rusebis!)
Meskhi Turk: this term expresses the irony of their fate like all their
life does. This term has been translated from Russian: "meskhetinskiy
turok". In Georgian this means a Turk from Meskheti and not the absurd
invented nation, which has never existed - Turkish Meskhi. Of course,
Russia has put its own political meaning into the term, to make these
people remember Meskheti, but to recognise themselves always as Turks.
This way not Georgians but Turks would keep their orientation towards
Meskheti. Georgia and the Georgians have not called this poor people
even Turks. They created their name by means of some synthesis of
nationalities. Any government, which will declare that it is going to
solve the problem of these people, must first do something with this
term. As to me, I would solve this problem at once: their name is
“Deported Meskhi”.

source of my information is CIPDD and if you are interested you could
address this organization in Georgia and get dayly news from them.
I really like how they reflect the processes in Georgia.

Nana

l...@mail.utexas.edu

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Mar 20, 1999, 3:00:00 AM3/20/99
to
Dear Nana.....

In general, It's a good idea to return "former" Georgians to Georgia. But I am
really interesting what does Georgian law say about Naturalization or at least on
granting permanent residency to foreign citizens?

As a matter of fact, those numerous applicants are foreigners and should not be
distinguished from other foreigners in respect to rights and responsibilities.
Can they apply for Georgian residency first, or they'll be naturalized
immediately? If the later is the case...so why?
As I mentioned, I have no clear idea how one can get Georgian "green card"
or....Passport at this moment. Should they pass via more or less the same steps
..say....like those applying for British, Latvian, Canadian, German, Kuwaiti or
US residency?
Let's take the model of US or Canadian residency.

What would be reasons / ground for granting them Georgian residency:

---- family sponsored?
---- professionals?
---- investors?

What would be the minimum amount of finances they must bring to Georgia to
support their family needs at least for 1 year? What about language, professional
skills (Georgia might need) and criminal clearance?

I admit that it seems very premature and our poor country is not ready for that at
all .....but ..... from other side, one cannot agree to the fact that the
possible regulation(s) about Georgian permanent residency must be ignored
forever. If Georgia has no exact regulation for residency and/or
naturalization...or at present time it is not in a physcal position to fulfill
it....so any kind of naturalization(s) en mass must be postponed for the better
time. That's sad...but the reality. Even Germans, being moved from Russia to
their historical land, passed via naturalization procedures and nobody granted
them citizenship immediately. Or, Baltic countries....russians living there must
work out their petitions and applications for residency....and they really do
that, since they prefer to stay in Latvia rather to move to Russia.

My personal opinion is, that if Georgia still has no law about residency and
Naturalization, so there is a need to copy one of those working perfectly in
many European and/or new world's countries. Otherwise, if the country has no law
or conditions for that.... the government should "loudly" :)) admit it at EU
sessions to avoid any headaches in future.

L.D.


P.S. FYI...... I know sevearl very fine Georgian familie living in Argentina
(parents left Georgia since 1921) and they were refused in Georgian citizenship.
How do you like it against the background of new appicants mentioned above?


Nana Bukhsianidze

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Mar 20, 1999, 3:00:00 AM3/20/99
to
l...@mail.utexas.edu wrote:

>
> L.D.
>
> P.S. FYI...... I know sevearl very fine Georgian familie living in Argentina
> (parents left Georgia since 1921) and they were refused in Georgian citizenship.
> How do you like it against the background of new appicants mentioned above?

I was going to respond to your letter with the question: why not realize
that tomorrow if not us but our children could be treated as Muslim
Meskhetians. I know that in this particular case is special fear causing
the officials and most Georgians to think hundred times about the issue
( ise axalkalakis da axalcixis shemxedvares risiga eshiniat), but if
they will be declined the right just like that ( "imitom rom imitom"-is
principit) who knows one day our children will be thrown away too?
Now you told that I ws quite close to the truth.
Agree , it is very interesting what kind of regulations will be
inculcated in our country about permanent residency and about
citizenship. I know one perfect thing that everyone has ultimatum to
give up the citizenship of any other country if they are interested to
be citizen's of Georgia.
moklet, turki mesxebisgan dzalian gansxvavebulad nu tsarmovidgent tavs.
aset kanonebs iset instiktebze akrdnoben rom tu rame ar sheicvala da
mistiuri shishi ar gadailaxa, tavisuflad sheidzleba vizebic ar micen
kartvel emigrantebs sakartveloshi ert mshvenier dges.


n.

--

Nana Bukhsianidze

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Mar 20, 1999, 3:00:00 AM3/20/99
to
lev...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>

> > I assure you that those people are trying to come to Georgia because of
> > the only reason: they have a genetical feeling of the fact that Georgia
> > should give them citizenship,
>

> sainteresoa saidan amtkicebs es adamiani msgavsi genetikuri ndomis
> arsebobbas? pirovneba romelic demokratiul, mocinave erovnul politikaze
> laparakobs tavad 19 saukunis primitiuli nacionalizmis cnebebs iziarebs?
laparakia bunebis ert-ert umtavres tvisebaze, romelic kvela shter
cxovelta dajgufebebshic ki mushaobs. es principi aris teritoriastan da
mitsastan kavshiris arseboba. es gamoixateba istoriashi, nagebobebshi,
tsinaparta xsovnashi. arsebobs meore saxis erebi mat cignebi, mongolebi,
momtabare turkselchukebi ekutvnodnen.
amerikuli tanamedrove teoriebi ki, romlebic indielebis amosresvazea
damkarebuli (anu visac mitsa ekutvnoda da genetikuri kavshiri hkonda am
mitsastan isini gajlites da mere idzaxian genetikuri kavshiri ar
arsebobso,) cnobilia chemtvis. da cxadia rom eseti ideologia axali
msoflios ert-erti monapovaria cota ar ikos cudi fasit. me mag sakenks
ver damikrian.

arsebobs mitsastan genetikuri kavshiri. amas kanonshi ver chagitseren,
es unda igrdzno.
sainteresoa rom am ideologiis gamtarebeli xalxi ragacatom ebrael ers
exmareba agtkmul mitsaze fexis mokidebashi. :-)
rac sheexeba zakareishvils cota ucnaurad chamoakaliba es azri. anu
mokalakeobaze genetikuri uflebis grdznoba ar vici raa. mokalakeoba
martla ar gadadis genetikurad ise rogorc xutosnoba anda PhD.

nana

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Mar 21, 1999, 3:00:00 AM3/21/99
to
In article <36F368...@nospammeridianworldservices.com>,
Nana Bukhsianidze <gr...@nospammeridianworldservices.com> wrote:

> Tu gavixsenebt rom musulmani mesxebi mxolod da mxolod tavianti uflebis
> agdgenas itxoven, ar getskinot da musulmanebi ariano amis gamo mat
> majlajunebad starmodgena mxolod isev da isev provinciuli fashizmis
> machvenebelia.

nana, martali xar sakitxis mxolod sarcmunoebriv kutxidan ganxilivis
mcdarobashi. am hemtxvevashi sarcmunoeba ki araa mtavari aramed am kerjo
jgupis erovnuli shegneba. am mxriv ki bevri ram cxadia. es xalxi turkebad,
anda arakartvelad, tvlis tavs, sakartveloshi ki ara e.c mesxetshi unda
dasaxleba, tanac tavisive sakmistvis sazinod imdeni politkuri tamashic ar
sheujliat rom avtonomiis gegmebsac ki ar malaven. uecvelia, iaragit ar
adgebian sakartvelos sazgvrebs mxolod is ganapirobebs mati sakcielis
samxedro shemocrad ar agkmas.

rac qvelaze ironiulia, sakartvelos mtavrobas arc ki jalujs mati mats sasurvel
raionebshi chasaxleba radgan ik mosaxle somexebi mxolod sitqvit ar gaajeveben
mat.

da mainc rogorc chans am sakmeshi mainc mtavroba garkveul ckuas ichens. bolo
jer shevardnajis am temaze saubris mixedvit tu vimsjelebt, ervo sabcos mier
mocemuli 12 cliani vadaze laparakoben. amasobashi ki chemi azrit turkebs unda
miucven rom es xalxi ik cavides.

> axla paata zakareishvilis statiidan ramodenime amonasters mogartmevt:
> --------------------------------------------------------
> I assure you that those people are trying to come to Georgia because of
> the only reason: they have a genetical feeling of the fact that Georgia
> should give them citizenship,

sainteresoa saidan amtkicebs es adamiani msgavsi genetikuri ndomis


arsebobbas? pirovneba romelic demokratiul, mocinave erovnul politikaze
laparakobs tavad 19 saukunis primitiuli nacionalizmis cnebebs iziarebs?

> to solve the problem of the deported Meskhi,

uceb mesxeteli turkebi mesxebad gadaikcnen. sxvata shoris Black Sea Pressic,
priad gasaocrad, mesxetel turkebs mesxebad moixseniebs. netav terminologiur
daudevrobaa es tu upro shors gatvlili taktika?

> It is surprising that the government, which calls itself democratic, in

> fact appears [] as a follower of a fascist policy. Why? Where is the
> democratic process?

huh, tu demokratiuli araa, politika mopashisto unda iqos?

> Meskhi carry out hunger strikes outside the Parliament building,
> demanding realisation of the decree. As to the authorities, they let the
> police to attack the demonstrations and later,

mtavroba kartvel mokalakeebs cmes da jaglebs usisiianebs. gasakviri araa
aramokalakes rom ase moepros.

> everyone has the right to live where the Law allows him/her.

sakmec egaa: mesxetel turkebs kanoni ar ajlkevs sakartvelshi cxovrebis
uplebas.

>why cannot a person, who by torture and threat was deprived of their God and
> mentality, remain Georgian as well?

sakme isaa rom am xalxs dges kartveloba aranairad ar surs: tavis tavs turks
ucodebs, avtonomiasac amis gamo itxovs da sakartvelos gansakutrebuil regioshi
dasaxlebac imitom unda. :-)

>How can we accuse them instead of at least trying to give them their god and
mentality back? ( martlac ras itkodit amis tsinaagmdeg?n.b.)

gasaocari pirdapir. es kaci imas ijaxis am xalxs qopas ar acliano da mere
mat gmertis da shegnebis shecvlas ukadis!
kartvelebs kartul shegnebiani 10,000 ingilos sakartvelshi gadmosaxleba ver
mouxerxebiat da es pirovneba 200 atasamde ucxoelis gakartvelebas gvpirdeba.

>The demand should be following: Meskhi will return to different regions of
> Georgia - and should not be changed.

titkos nebismier adgilas dasaxlebis gvtiur uplebaze laparakobda es kaci zemot.

> (ras nishnavs saxeli turki mesxi? da visi mogonilia? rusebis!)
> Meskhi Turk: this term expresses the irony of their fate like all their
> life does.

ai turkebis nacvlad mati "mesxebad" moxseniebac aixsna. es pirovneba
tvitneburad acxadebs mat mesxebad, e.i kartveli jgupad. pakti ki sul sxvaa.

nana madloba am saintereso shexedulebis gamokveqnebistvis.

levani

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l...@mail.utexas.edu

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Mar 21, 1999, 3:00:00 AM3/21/99
to
shakro papa wrote:

> NANA ratom gaamakhvile kuradgeba sartsmunoebaze ar vici. LND vetankhmebi
> Naturalizaciis sakitkhshi....... (cut....)

Martalia tradiciulad Shakro Papa karg mezgapred itvleboda.... :)) magram am
kerdzo shemtxvevashi misi saxelis matarebeli axlosaa realobastan.

Albat kveknis uimedo sisustis macvenebeli upro ikneba is facti rom Sakartvelom
upirobod miigos kvela is migranti da tan etsados mati "uplebebis" kovelmxriv
dakmakopilebas, mashin rodesaz misi ukve arsebuli kanonieri mokalakeni
sasotarkvetis zgvarze arian misulni masiurad. Ra tkma unda chveni kveklana
amjamad nebit tu unebliet (albat orive) usustesi da politikurad kovlad
saxedakargulia....mxedvelobashi makvs saxelmtipo institutebi, economica,
socialuri datsva, ganatleba, etc. (didi politika sheidzleba isev kvavis
chvenshi, rogorz kiveltvis) da ra gasakviri unda ikos is rom misi egret
tsodebuli "saemigrazio samsaxuri" an ar arsebobs saertod anda mushaobs mistvis
metad chveul stylshi, rasaz albat kvela shinauri tu gareuli sakmaod kargad
itsnobs.

Piradad, sulaz ar gamikvirdeba rom ert dges gavigo kvela migranti daasaxles
sakartveloshi, kovelgvari pirobebis gareshe, kovelgvari saemigrazio proceduris
gverdis avlit, aravitari saemigrazio kvotebi, aravitari samushao visa tu
droebiti matsxovreblis statusi, aranairi finansuri tina-valdebulebani....da ase
shemdeg. Tanaz es sheidzleba moxdes sul ramodenime piris ushualo
brdzanebit...ise rom mteli mosaxleoba shishveli factis tinashe darcheba....ra
tkma unda mogvianebit. Da tu vinmem amis tinaagmdeg raime seriozul protests
anda kmedebas mimartavs - mas an ise chaachumeben rom sartod daavitkdes mesxeti
sad mdebareobs, anda .... (damatebiti varianti)... kvelaperi es aixsneba shors
ganchvretili DIDI POLITIKIT, ...rom es sachiroa, rom dro ar itmenda, rom
sachiroa EU comitetebma dainaxon (morigi sesxis tu human-daxmarebis gatsemis
tin) tu ra demokratiulia mtavroba...da ase shemdeg...

L.D.

Nana Bukhsianidze

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Mar 21, 1999, 3:00:00 AM3/21/99
to
shakro papa wrote:
>
> NANA ratom gaamakhvile kuradgeba sartsmunoebaze ar vici.
me cota inspiratoris rols vtamashobdi am sakitxtan dakavshirebit. amitom
chemi azri arc gamomitkkvams mtlianad. religiaze me kuradgeba imitom
gavamaxvile rom dziritadi aspekti romelzedac am xalxis sakartveloshi
shemoshvebis gadachrit motsinaagmdegeni ekrdnobian airs stoered is rom
musulmanebi ariano sarchulad udeben. amas ki kanonshi ver chatseren.
gamodis imitom rom imitom. :-)

> LND vetankhmebi
> Naturalizaciis sakitkhshi.
mec vetanxmebi.
da rogorc agvnishne tu normaluri kanonmdebloba ar iarsebebs xval
kristianebic sheidzleba chavardnen igive dgeshi.
me vfikrob rom sakartvelom agresiuli kanoni ar unda miigos imattvis
visac
shtamomavlobit kavshiri akvs sakartvelostan. saertod araa agresiuli
kanonebi sachiro magram me mgoni kartvelis shvils an sakartveloshi
dabadebulis da gazrdilis shvils an shvilishvils kidev cota ufro rbilad
unda moekidos. anu ragac shegavati unda arsebobdes. ratom vambob amas?
imitom rom kargad icit titkmis milioni kartveli da erti amdeni
arakartveli sakartvelodan tsamosulia. aravin icis ramdeni xani vin sad
gacherdeba. zogs ikneb sxvaganac moutsios cxovrebis gatareba mtlianad.
magram tu mati shvilebi mitrialdebian ( bunebrivia am milionidan
naxevari mainc unergavs sakartvelos sikvaruls tavis shvilebs)
sakartvelosken, ik agresiuli kanoni ar unda daxvdet. me saertodac vtvli
rom ormag mokalakeobaze sastsrafodaa kanoni misagebi, rom sakartvelom
martla tavisi nebit ar dakargos tavisiani.
ase vfikrob rom is visi deda an mama sakartvelos respubikis mokalake
odesme kofila, ( sakartvelos mokalake ar nishnavs aucileblad 90-ianis
mere mokalakeobas) imat shesaxeb gansakutrebuli kanonebi unda daitseros.
natesaobrivi kavshiri da ojaxi xeltsamosakravi momenti araa.
akedan gamomdinare es musulmani tu turki mesxebi tavistavad
gansakutrebul kategoriashi gadian.
me tviton dzalian dafikrebuli var sad undat shesvla zustad ar vici.
nangrevebad kceul soflebshi???
ise rogorc amboben mshromeli xalxia. magram magari guli hkoniat.
tu tbilisshi undat chamosxdoma, mashin tbiliss saertodac ukugma tsauva
sakme. imitom rom naxevari sakartvelo ukve tbilisshia. ltolvilebze ar
vlaparakob. xalxi lukma puris fulis sahsovnelad tbilisshia chamosuli
mteli raionebidan. axla mat kidev mesxebic tu miemata, ar vici ras
moitans.

>ra uplebebis agdgenazea laparaki? me mgoni shen
> agnishne rom 40 000 gaasakhles kholo shemosvllas 250 000 apirebs.
xoda gamkvirvebia. eseni 20 000 ojaxis monagaria? tu vinme sheuertda
mat rigebs?
ai aset gamokvevaze rom daafudznon sheshveba kidev mesmis.
vinc ver daamtkicebs rom misi an bebia an babua sakartveloshi cxovrobda,
is ar unda shemoushvan dzalian advilad.
sakartveloshi dabadebulis shtamomavali kidev sxvaa.

> mokalakeoba
> da mitsastan kavshiris shesakheb getankhmebi natsilobriv. me ar vambob rom am
> khalkhs uari vutkhrat, arc imis momkhre var rom sukvela shemovides. titoeuli
> ojakhis sakme unda ganikhilos tcal-tcalke.
martali xar.

> unda ikos kvota tselitsadshi
> ramdeni emigrantis migeba sheudzlia sakhelmtsipos. gvakvs ki am khalkhisatvis
> sakmao samushao adgiliebi? ra saarsebo resursebi gaachnia titoeul ojakhs
> sanam samushaos ishovnian?gvchirdeba ki 250000 dausakmebeli adamianis
> shemosvla?
namdvilad. sul utanxod tu shemovidnen sakurdlad gauxdebad sakme.
kriminali kidev ar aklia kvekanas.

>ras nishnavs rom meskhetshi undat, ik vinc tckhovrobs iman raga
> knas?
me rogorc shevamchnie mesxeti sakmaod carielia.

>kovel mokalakes akvs sackhovrebeli adgilis archevis upleba . visac
> sadac unda ik ickhovros. mtavroba araa valdebuli uzrunvelkos es khalkhhi
> binit da samushaoti.
ratkmaunda. eg cota sabchota kavshiris himnidan amonatsers hgavs, rom
mtavrobam unda mogces saxli da samushao. chveni mtavroba sakitxs dzalian
markjved tskvets aset shemtxvevashi daxmareba ki ara kutvnil xelfass
gaketebul sakmeshi ar uxdis xalxs. :-)


> tu didi survili akvt tcalkeulma ojakhma an pirovnebam
> unda mimartos mtavrobas mokalakeobis motkhovnit.
me mgoni rogorc levanma tkva, ise unda ikos mokalakeoba pirdapir
aravisac ar unda mienichos. albat sadgac 10 tselitsadshi.
sxvatashori.... archvenebis dros es dzalian gamosadegari tavdacva
ikneba.

>me mgoni chveni shecdomaa
> rom kvela problemas nacionalur elpers vadzlevt.
emociuri xalxi vart...

khom sheidzleba problema asec
> davinakhot:sakartveloshi shemosvla unda 250 000 kacs, zogierti matgani
> sakartveloshia dabadebuli.
stsored mase sjobs.
aravin araa arc turk mesxze uketesi arc uaresi. mere ra rom musulmanebi
arian? ager iegovas motsmeebit aivso dasavlet sakartvelo, amas raga
vushvelot? isini gavasaxlot?
saertod shakro papav :-) me dzalian momtsons tkveni azrebi da
racionaluri msjeloba.
nana
--

shakro papa

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Mar 22, 1999, 3:00:00 AM3/22/99
to


NANA ratom gaamakhvile kuradgeba sartsmunoebaze ar vici. LND vetankhmebi
Naturalizaciis sakitkhshi. ra uplebebis agdgenazea laparaki? me mgoni shen
agnishne rom 40 000 gaasakhles kholo shemosvllas 250 000 apirebs. mokalakeoba


da mitsastan kavshiris shesakheb getankhmebi natsilobriv. me ar vambob rom am
khalkhs uari vutkhrat, arc imis momkhre var rom sukvela shemovides. titoeuli

ojakhis sakme unda ganikhilos tcal-tcalke. unda ikos kvota tselitsadshi


ramdeni emigrantis migeba sheudzlia sakhelmtsipos. gvakvs ki am khalkhisatvis
sakmao samushao adgiliebi? ra saarsebo resursebi gaachnia titoeul ojakhs
sanam samushaos ishovnian?gvchirdeba ki 250000 dausakmebeli adamianis

shemosvla? ras nishnavs rom meskhetshi undat, ik vinc tckhovrobs iman raga
knas? kovel mokalakes akvs sackhovrebeli adgilis archevis upleba . visac


sadac unda ik ickhovros. mtavroba araa valdebuli uzrunvelkos es khalkhhi

binit da samushaoti. tu didi survili akvt tcalkeulma ojakhma an pirovnebam
unda mimartos mtavrobas mokalakeobis motkhovnit. me mgoni chveni shecdomaa
rom kvela problemas nacionalur elpers vadzlevt. khom sheidzleba problema asec


davinakhot:sakartveloshi shemosvla unda 250 000 kacs, zogierti matgani
sakartveloshia dabadebuli.

vadebze romaa laparaki kargia. albat 15-20 tseli ar ikneboda tcudi. es
damokidebulia sakartvelos shiga bazarze da amis mikhedvit ramdeni
emigrantis "gatareba" sheudzlia kvekanas tselitsadshi
Shakro II papa

soso

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Mar 22, 1999, 3:00:00 AM3/22/99
to
Nana Bukhsianidze a écrit:

> soso,
> ra safudzvelze sheudzlia kvekanas ar misces mis teritoriaze shesvlis
> ufleba vinmes?*

> cxadia, rom sakartvelos sheudzlie ekonomikuri mdgomareobit axsnas raime
> mraval atasiani jgufis ver migeba. magram rodesac kerdzo mikalake
> sazgvars moadgeba iseti teritoriidan saidanac viza ar schirdeba
> shemosvlas (azrebaijanidan viza ar schirdeba tu ar vcdebi) rit unda
> daakavon adamianebi ise rom adamianis uflebebi ar shelaxon?

nana,
ra tkma unda, SNG-s kveknebchi gadasaadgileblad am kveknebis
mokalakeebs vizebi ar schirdebat. tumca es ar nichnavs, rom sazgvarze
gadmosvlisas mati pasportebi ar unda chemocmdes. unda chemocmdes da
mkacradac. upasporto, aravitari mokalakeobis mkone, umisamatro(mag. am
sapuzvelze*) da a.sh. pirovnebebis (ukacravad da "bomjebis")
sakartvelochi chemosvla unda cheizgudos. mat aravitar chemtxvevachi ar
vaigiveb opicialuri statusis mkone ltolvilebtan, romeli kveknidanac ar
unda modiodnen isini. tuki-mesxebi am kategorias ar miekutvnebian,
radgan mat surt sakartvelochi sabolood damkvidreba, rasac ucxoel
ltolvilta statusi umetes cemtxvevachi ar itvaliscinebs

> tanac tuki adamians akvs imis sakmarisi tanxa rom saxli aishenos da
> icxovros da imushaos, ra pirobit sheidzleba amis ufleba tsaartvan?

chemi azrit imistvis, rom ucxoelma sakartvelochi cxovrebisa da muchaobis
uplebebi moipovos, mxolod misi survili ar unda ikos sakmarisi. Shakro
Papas ar ikos "aris ragac pirobebi romelsac kvela mokalakeobis msurveli
unda akmakopilebdes..." kovel chemtxvevachi mat unda vagrznobinot, rom
sakartvelo "indikos bostani" ar aris.

> me martali gitxrat dzalian maocebs tu ra aseti tavdaveba agmoachndat am
> turk mesxebs sakartvelos mimart mashin roca kartvelebi garbian tavianti
> samshoblodan? ashkarad unda idges vigac mat ukan. vin laparakobs netav
> am xalxis saxelit? martla undat titoeul matgans gaveranebul kvekanashi
> icxovron? mashin raa amis mizezi? politikuri gamorchena? tu ikneb
> martlac da fesvebis sikvaruli?
> me am kitxvebs chems tavsac vusvam...

koveltvis sjobia kvekanas mostxovo mokalakeoba vidre ltolvilis statusi,
gansakutrebit machin roca arsebobs prscendenti da chesazlebloba imisa,
rom gagiva. amave dros es xalxi realurad ikna gadasaxlebuli mesxetidan,
rac carmoudgeneli araadamianuroba iko humanuri tvalsazrisit. vin dgas
mat ukan? cheizleba vivaraudot, rom ertdroulad sxvadasxva interesebis
mkone ramodenime zala, radgan zalian advilia am situaciachi mkopi xalxis
grznobebze tamachi da mati martva. chventvis saintereso isaa, rom am
zalebchi matdami interesi arsebobda mat sakartvelochi chemosvlamde,
arsebobs chemosvlis momentchi da udaod iarsebebs cemosvlis chemdegac...

> ra ucnauri kanoni shemougiat mokalakepbaze. 5 tseli imushavoo? anu tu
5
> tslis mere cocxali ikneba mashin miscemen mokalakeobas? mushaobashi ra
> igulisxmeba? saxelmtsifo datsesebulebebshi tu bazrobaze (selfemployed)?

me ar vici arsebobs tu ara chventan aseti kanoni,es ubralod chemi
mosazreba iko. aba ra unda aketos ucxoelma sakartvelochi, sanam
mokalakeobas miigebs? an unda scavlobdes an unda muchaobdes. muchaobachi
igulisxmeba: pirovneba dasakmebulia kvirachi daaxlobit 40st farglebchi
da uproblemod ixdis kvela saxelmcipo gadasaxads. rac cheexeba
"koveldgiur bazrobebs", imedi unda vikoniot, rom es droebiti movlenaa da
momavalchi mat kvirachi an tvechi ertxel vixilavt, da isic
folklorul-sanaxaobiti tvalsazrisit, rogorc dasavlet evropis zogiert
kvekanachi.

"soso"

soso

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Mar 22, 1999, 3:00:00 AM3/22/99
to
> B-no Ioseb
>
> Dziritadad getanxmebit zemot moxseniebul daskvnashi, magram es
> "antropolgiuri" bolomde ver gavige. Tu dro geknat da survili, ikneb tsota
> detalebshi axsnat tu ra antropologiur saprtxestan aris dakavshirebuli mag
> problema? Mesxeteli turkebi "Kromanionebi" arian chvensavit tu sxva
> kvesaxeobas miekutvnebian H.sapiens-is parglebshi ? Tu ara....mashin mag
> problema ara marto politikur-culturul-socialur mxritaa saintereso, aramed
> rogorz chans biollogiuradaz.
>
> L. Darjania


Iosebi ara Kalistrate (es ise xumrobit)

jer erti, amierkavkasiachi chesazlebeli demografiuli disbalansis
ganxilvisas, mxolod turki-mesxebi ar mkolia mxedvelobachi. mxedvelobachi
mteli amierkavkasiis mosaxleoba mkonda.

meorec, ejvi ar mepareba imachi, rom dedamicaze kvelani erti genezisis
chvilebi vart, tumca gansxvaveba Axmedovs, Babajaniansa da Eliavas
choris mgoni unda arsebobdes.
ise martali brzandebit, sitkva antropologiuri brchkalebchi unda
chamesva.

pativiscemit
"soso"

Nana Bukhsianidze

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Mar 22, 1999, 3:00:00 AM3/22/99
to
Bn. soso,

dziratdshi getanxmebit. mxolod tkveni tserilis bolo abzacma cota ar ikos
gamamxiarula.

> me ar vici arsebobs tu ara chventan aseti kanoni,es ubralod chemi
> mosazreba iko. aba ra unda aketos ucxoelma sakartvelochi, sanam
> mokalakeobas miigebs? an unda scavlobdes an unda muchaobdes. muchaobachi
> igulisxmeba: pirovneba dasakmebulia kvirachi daaxlobit 40st farglebchi
> da uproblemod ixdis kvela saxelmcipo gadasaxads.

40 saatio?!
ar vici pirdapir. eg ar gamova jer-jerobit sakartveloshi. mosaxleobis
umravlesobas 40 saatiani samushao kvira ar akvs. visac akvs isini
umravlesoba iset xelfass igeben rom tavs ver irchenen.
dziritadad xalxi aris selfemployed. anu tavs tviton isakmebs. zogi
repetitorobs, zogic taksistobs, zogi acxobs da kidis, zogi kidev
saertodac importshia chabmuli. ara mgonia rom es samsaxrebi oficialurad
ikvnen gaformabuli gadasaxadebis shishit. ase rom oficialurad (
saxelmtsifom rom scnos) es xalxi ar mushaobs. tumca kvela mushaobs
sinamdvileshi.
aseti midgomit turk mesxebs mtlianad moutsevt sakartvelos teritoriaze 5
tseriltsadshi sikvdili shimshilisagan anda sanam kvekana ar dalagdeba,
manam arc ki girs raime daregulirebul procesze ocneba aravis mxridan.
ra dgeshi arain ltolvilebi? isini sadga mushaoben? sacodavi xalxi an
bazrobaze zis da tavs ase irchens anda aseve taksistobs da zemot
chamotvlil sakmianobebs anu chrdilovan ekonomikasaa shekedelbuli.


>rac cheexeba
> "koveldgiur bazrobebs", imedi unda vikoniot, rom es droebiti movlenaa da
> momavalchi mat kvirachi an tvechi ertxel vixilavt, da isic
> folklorul-sanaxaobiti tvalsazrisit, rogorc dasavlet evropis zogiert
> kvekanachi.

imedi nu mogivshalos gmertma.
me ufro am bazrobis da saertod chridlovani ekonomikis tetrad gardasaxvis
imedi makvs tuki amsi survils tvit mtavrobac gamotkvams da mates 2000
tslovani profesiis xalxs bankis operacionistebit da safosto momsaxurebit
daaregulirebs. rogorc dasavletshia.

shakro papa

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Mar 22, 1999, 3:00:00 AM3/22/99
to
In article <36F574...@nospammeridianworldservices.com>,
Nana Bukhsianidze <gr...@nospammeridianworldservices.com> wrote:

> saertod shakro papav :-) me dzalian momtsons tkveni azrebi da
> racionaluri msjeloba.
> nana
> --
>

> Please remove "NO SPAM" in email address before replying.
>

gmadlobt. ormagi mokalakeobis kanoni martlac kargi ikneboda. samtsukharoa rom
tavis droze ar miiges. meskheti rom carielia ar nishnavs rom 40 000 adgilze
250 000 daeteva :) . khalkhis raodenoba gaizarda, "skamebisa" khom igive
darcha? da kidev 1 kitkhva. mainc ratom gaasakhles eg khalkhi? musulmanobis
gamo? ara mgonia. musulmanebi acharashic arian magram ar gadausakhlebiat,
pirikit acharas pakizad moekcnen da avtonomia misces. chemi savaraudo pasukhi
asetia, rom sabchota mtavrobis azrit eg khalkhi omis dros V kolonas
tsarmoadgenda sakartveloshi . tu ar vcdebi igive periodshi germanelebic
gaasakhles sakartvelodan. albat es shecdoma iko, albat. Shakro II papa

shakro papa

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Mar 22, 1999, 3:00:00 AM3/22/99
to
In article <36F5A2E3...@mail.utexas.edu>,
l...@mail.utexas.edu wrote:

> Martalia tradiciulad Shakro Papa karg mezgapred itvleboda.... :)) magram am
> kerdzo shemtxvevashi misi saxelis matarebeli axlosaa realobastan.
>

romeli shakro itvleboda karg mezgapred ? :)) tan tradiciulad? shagidzlia
chaakonkreto? :)

Nana Bukhsianidze

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Mar 22, 1999, 3:00:00 AM3/22/99
to
--
shakro papa wrote:
chemi savaraudo pasukhi
> asetia, rom sabchota mtavrobis azrit eg khalkhi omis dros V kolonas
> tsarmoadgenda sakartveloshi . tu ar vcdebi igive periodshi germanelebic
> gaasakhles sakartvelodan.
turketi xom germaniis mokavshire iko? albat proturkuli anu pro germanuli
orientaciisatvis? tu anti kartuli orientaciisatvis?

>albat es shecdoma iko, albat.

aba? tu gavitvalistsinebt rom 40000 atasi sinamdvileshi 15 000 ojaxs
udris da akedan 250 000 gamocxadda uceb... :-)aramgonia sakartveloshi
ase gamravlebulikvnen. tundac adgilis ukonlobis gamo. albat sxva
gadasaxlebuli xalxebi sheerein mat rigebs. me saocrebad mechveneba 50
tselitsadshi aseti zrda. tu gaitvalistsineb rom ukvdavebi ar unda ikvnen
(anu sivdilianobac gasatvalistsinebelia) etkoba erti kacze 10 bavshvi
chndeboda!
nana

l...@mail.utexas.edu

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Mar 22, 1999, 3:00:00 AM3/22/99
to
shakro papa wrote:

> romeli shakro itvleboda karg mezgapred ? :)) tan tradiciulad? shagidzlia
> chaakonkreto? :)
>

Kai exla....ratom ibutebi es Papis tola katsi? :))

nana

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Mar 22, 1999, 3:00:00 AM3/22/99
to
lev...@my-dejanews.com wrote:

>
> Nana Bukhsianidze wrote:
>
> > es principi aris teritoriastan da
> > mitsastan kavshiris arseboba. es gamoixateba istoriashi, nagebobebshi,
> > tsinaparta xsovnashi. arsebobs meore saxis erebi mat cignebi, mongolebi,
> > momtabare turkselchukebi ekutvnodnen.
>
> nana, razea damqarebuli es sheneuli daqopa?
rogor mixvdi rom chemeulia?;-)
martla makvs teoria sxvatashoris, magram misi ak daulagebeli saxit
motsodeba merideba cota.
zogadad kacobriobis sxvadasxva natsilebi ( zog shemtxvevashi erebi,
zogjer tomobrivi dajgufebebi) sxvadasxva fazebshi cxovrobdnen. es cxadia
ratkmaunda. kuradgebas vamaxvileb or sxvadasxva mimartulebaze. erti
mimartuleba adgilis mimart did ertgulebas ichens da aigivebs tavs (
modzraobs ra droshi anu nvitardeba), meore ki modzraobs sivrceshi da ase
eufleba codnas. kartvelebi azrzec ar var tu rodis ikvnen momtabare
cxovrebis fazashi. sakmaod chamokalibebuli xasiati akvt rogorc ers am
tvalsazrisit da adgilis mimart saocari ertgulebit gamoirchevian.
daabrale imas rom mitsa mdidar mosavals idzleoda, anda dzalian lamazi
peizaji hkondat anda ubralod ase chamokalibdnen.
cignebi, turkselchukebi, tavis droze germanelebi, kivchagebi ( rusebic
dapkrobebis saxit), ingliselebi (aseve kolonializaciis saxit),
espanelebi (aseve) ekutvnian ufro modzrav erebs. dgesdgeisobit
amerikelebi aseve tavisi kveknis shignit momtabareobis magali xarisxit
gamoirchevian. mashin roca germenelebs umushevrobac ki ar atovebiebt
mshobiur kalakebs da soflebs.
arasodes damavitskdeba ert-erti chemi nacnobis shenishvna frang
kanadelze: iseti sulelia mamiseul nakvetshi apirebs saxlis ashenebas da
cxovrebaso. kanadelis sisulelis ar vici, magram cxadia sxvaoba arsebobs
mentalitetshi. amerikelebi dgesdgeisobit ise momtabareoben rom tvitonac
amchneven rom xshirad adamianebi urtiertobis gagrmavebasac eridebian
radgan ician rom dges ert adgize tu arian xval sul sxvagan iknebian.
aseti ram chven rom vicit ik ar xdeba. amerikelebi eridebian tavianti
saxlis garshemo raime kuturis shekmnas tu is gaparsul balaxshi da tvalta
momchrel silamazeshi ar gamoixateba. anu kinoteatrs, magazias, kafes da
ase shemdeg eridebian. mashin roca kartveli tu frangi tu italieli
pirikit cdilobs sociumi sheikmnas sacxovrebeli adgilis garshemo.
me vfikrob es saocrad saintereso movlenaa da girs dasafirkeblad.
sxvatashoris amistadi vinc naxet kuradgenbas miakcevdit moxucebuli
prezidentis sitkvebs absolutur individualizmze da tsinaparta
pativiscemaze mati monapovris cxovrebashi gatarebis saxit. anu is rom
absoluturi individualizmi martoobas da ushinaarsobas shobs, rom
vigacastan kavshiri unda igrdzno. aramgonia rom es xmamagali da cariali
sitkvebi iko.

>>me mag sakenks
> > ver damikrian.
>
> dajaleba ra satkmelia. imatac ki visac gonia rom
> samqaro shvid dgeshi sheikmna an rom shelocvit
> sheijleba kibos gankurneba, ar ajaleben sinatlis
> danaxvas. tanamedrove amerikuli da dasavluri
> sazogadeobrivi mojgvrebis cqalobit, qvelas akvs
> churshi jdomis upleba.
dasavlur modzgvrebebshi erix fromis da iungis nashromebic shedis da
isini kolektiuri kvecnobieris arsebobas adastureben. es imas miutitebs
rom kvela ragac didis natsili vart da garkveul etikur, istoriul, kuturul
sferos vekutvnit. rac cota ar ikos hgavs genetiuri uflebis grdznobas
chemo levan. ar vici shen ra igulisxme, magram calmxrivad an marto erti
mxridan danaxuli sinamdvile mxolod naxevari sinamdvilea. amitom marto
haieki da de tunkvilli araa dasavluri azrovnebis tsarmomadgenlebi, mat
egzistencialistebi da fsikoanalitikosebic ekutvnian.
shvid dgeshi samkaros ashenebis visac sjera imas primitiuli azrovneba
daschemebia da shemokmedisatvis dge 24 saatiani periodi hgonia. ;-)

> ai isini ki vinc pikroben rom samqaro shvid
> dgeshi sheikmna, ar iziareben ganatlebuli
> sazogadoebis sxva mojgvrebebsac da aravis
> arapris uplebas ajleven. aset sazogadoebashi
> sakenkis ar akenkvisatvis mscrapl moashtoben
> jiuts. ase rom zogjer sakenkis akenkva ara
> marto gaanatlebs adamians aramed momavalshi
> mis cicxlad darchenasac uzrunvelqops.
vaglax rom mase iko. magram imedia vegar moestsrebian religiuri anda
nebismieri fanatikosebi. agaraa kacobrioba ise brikvi rom sulelis fexis
xmas ahkves.

nana

nana

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Mar 22, 1999, 3:00:00 AM3/22/99
to
lev...@my-dejanews.com wrote:

>
> ara magram es xalxi kartvelobaze ar ambobs
> uars. turkebi ki scored amas uarqopen.
> bunebrivia aseti xalxi tavad ikvetavs kveqanashi
> chasaxlebis persepktivas.

nadvilad unda txovon turkets mxarshi madogoma mashin chvenebma. sakme
imashia rom am xalxs unda daesvas kitva ras irchvda: turketis
mokalakeobas tu sakartvelos mokalakeobas? tuki turketisas tsabrdzandnen
turketshi tu sakartvelosas mashin kartuli kudic unda daixuron. aki
amboben mesxebi varto? rodis gaturkdnen? mesxi istoriulad araa turki da
magat ra chiri daemartat?

nana
>
> levani


>
> -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
> http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own

--

lev...@my-dejanews.com

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Mar 23, 1999, 3:00:00 AM3/23/99
to
Nana Bukhsianidze wrote:

>
> shakro papa wrote:
> >
> >
> me cota inspiratoris rols vtamashobdi am sakitxtan dakavshirebit. amitom chemi azri arc gamomitkkvams mtlianad

mash santa clausi jer kidev cocxalia?

> shemoshvebis gadachrit motsinaagmdegeni ekrdnobian airs stoered is
>rom musulmanebi ariano sarchulad udeben. amas ki kanonshi ver chatseren.

romel kanonshi? tuki vigacam ukve sajarod
ganacxadqa rom rjulis gamo ar ushveben am xalxs
sakartveloshi, sapari ukve aexada mats namdvil
mizezs. tu namdvili mizezis damalva undoda
vinmes, arshemoshvebis sababad saxlebis an
saxsrebis ukonlobas moitanda.

> ase vfikrob rom is visi deda an mama sakartvelos respubikis mokalake
> odesme kofila, ( sakartvelos mokalake ar nishnavs aucileblad 90-ianis
> mere mokalakeobas) imat shesaxeb gansakutrebuli kanonebi unda daitseros.

aseti kanoni ukve arsebobs da misi mixedvit ert
dros sakartvelos mokalakis shtamomavals adviald
miecema mokalakeobis upleba. aseti kanoni bevr
kveqanashi arsebobs. magalitad tu sheni mshobeli
amerikis mokalake iqo, mis memkvidres shegijlia
moitxovo mokalakeoba. sakartgelo garmaniis
msgavsad etnikur carmomavlobasac akcevs
quradgebas da etnikurad kartuli carsulis konas
mokalakeobas utolebs.

> me tviton dzalian dafikrebuli var sad undat shesvla zustad ar vici.
> nangrevebad kceul soflebshi???

scored ik da arsad sxvagan.

> ai aset gamokvevaze rom daafudznon sheshveba kidev mesmis.

mesxeteli turkebis sakartvelshi shemoshveba
sakitxad arc ki unda udges, im mizezis gamo rom
mat sakartvelosshi ki ara mesxetshi, rasac
sakutar samshoblod tvlian, chasaxleba da calke
qopna undat. amas pirdapir acxadeben kidec.

>> titoeu ojakhis sakme unda ganikhilos tcal-
tcalke.

shakro, magis tavis mobmia rom sheejlos vinmes,
lekoba ki ar ikneboda dgevandel sakartveloishi.

>ager iegovas motsmeebit aivso dasavlet
sakartvelo, amas raga
> vushvelot? isini gavasaxlot?

ara magram es xalxi kartvelobaze ar ambobs


uars. turkebi ki scored amas uarqopen.
bunebrivia aseti xalxi tavad ikvetavs kveqanashi
chasaxlebis persepktivas.

levani

lev...@my-dejanews.com

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Mar 23, 1999, 3:00:00 AM3/23/99
to

Nana Bukhsianidze wrote:

> es principi aris teritoriastan da
> mitsastan kavshiris arseboba. es gamoixateba istoriashi, nagebobebshi,
> tsinaparta xsovnashi. arsebobs meore saxis erebi mat cignebi, mongolebi,
> momtabare turkselchukebi ekutvnodnen.

nana, razea damqarebuli es sheneuli daqopa?

> amerikuli tanamedrove teoriebi ki, [...] axali
> msoflios ert-erti monapovaria cota ar ikos cudi fasit. me mag sakenks
> ver damikrian.

dajaleba ra satkmelia. imatac ki visac gonia rom
samqaro shvid dgeshi sheikmna an rom shelocvit
sheijleba kibos gankurneba, ar ajaleben sinatlis
danaxvas. tanamedrove amerikuli da dasavluri
sazogadeobrivi mojgvrebis cqalobit, qvelas akvs
churshi jdomis upleba.

ai isini ki vinc pikroben rom samqaro shvid
dgeshi sheikmna, ar iziareben ganatlebuli
sazogadoebis sxva mojgvrebebsac da aravis
arapris uplebas ajleven. aset sazogadoebashi
sakenkis ar akenkvisatvis mscrapl moashtoben
jiuts. ase rom zogjer sakenkis akenkva ara
marto gaanatlebs adamians aramed momavalshi
mis cicxlad darchenasac uzrunvelqops.

levani

lev...@my-dejanews.com

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Mar 23, 1999, 3:00:00 AM3/23/99
to
In article <36F6DB...@nospammeridianworldservices.com>,

nana <gr...@nospammeridianworldservices.com> wrote:
> zogadad kacobriobis sxvadasxva natsilebi ( zog shemtxvevashi erebi,
> zogjer tomobrivi dajgufebebi) sxvadasxva fazebshi cxovrobdnen. []erti

> mimartuleba adgilis mimart did ertgulebas ichens

nana, sheni prejudice (ar vici kartulad ra kvia amas) gishlis zust xedvashi.
jalian cota kartveli daibada da gaizarda tbilisshi, dges ki kartvelta
meotxedi ik cxovrobs. bunebrivia mati umetesoba ik sxva adgilidan
gadasaxlda. aseve bevri kartveli cxovrobs rusetshi. is rom kartvelelbi
xshirad ar mojraoben upro imit aixsneba rom samojrao mizezi ar kondat, an
samushao ar ciredbodat, an scavla an sxva ram. roca es dacirda mravali
kartveli cavid camovida da tanac ara kveqnis parglebshi, amerikelebivit,
aramaed mis garet.

> sakmaod chamokalibebuli xasiati akvt rogorc ers am
> tvalsazrisit da adgilis mimart saocari ertgulebit gamoirchevian.
> daabrale imas rom mitsa mdidar mosavals idzleoda,

saocari ertgulebit imitom gamoirchevian rom casasvleli arsad akvt.
mtatusheti ki upro adre daarielda.

zogiert muslimanur sazogadoebasi kalebi saxlidan ishviatad gadian da ucxo
mamakacs ar enaxvebian. mat mamebs da kmrebs sheijleba egonot rom es kalebi
sxva eris kalebze upro patiosani arian, magram shecdebian, vinaidan am or
jgups ertnairi archevanis tavisuplad gaketebis sasualeba ar akvs.

> amerikelebi aseve tavisi kveknis shignit momtabareobis magali xarisxit
> gamoirchevian. mashin roca germenelebs umushevrobac ki ar atovebiebt
> mshobiur kalakebs da soflebs.

germanuli sazogadoeba dasavlet evropis kveqnebidan qvelaze upro primitiulia,
didcilad imitom rom mati samrecvelo ganvitareba gacilebit gvian moxda da
peodaluri memkvidreobis didi gadmonashti akvt. tundac mati mokalakeobis
kanoni metqvelebs amaze.

> amerikelebi eridebian tavianti
> saxlis garshemo raime kuturis shekmnas tu is gaparsul balaxshi da tvalta
> momchrel silamazeshi ar gamoixateba. anu kinoteatrs, magazias, kafes da
> ase shemdeg eridebian.

ar vici sad cxovrob shen magram tu kalakebis kvdomis problemaze gagigia rame,
misi mizezi scored isaa rom savacro centrebi, konoebi da restornebi
gareubnebshi gadavida radgan shua penis didi nacili scored ik dasaxlda.
vigaca unda iqenebdes am kinoebs da magaziebs.

> absoluturi individualizmi martoobas da ushinaarsobas shobs, rom
> vigacastan kavshiri unda igrdzno. aramgonia rom es xmamagali da cariali
> sitkvebi iko.

martooba sasurveli araa magram martooba gerchivnos iset sazogadeobas sadac
mezobeli qels gamogcris an binis gamo an cikas bolomde rom ar daucli.

> vaglax rom mase iko. magram imedia vegar moestsrebian religiuri anda
> nebismieri fanatikosebi. agaraa kacobrioba ise brikvi rom sulelis fexis
> xmas ahkves.

me mgoni es usapujvlo optimizmia. bevrs miachnia rom genetika ararsebuli
mecnierebaa, rogorc es nikoloz me-2 amocnobis ambavma achvena. bevr russ da
kartvelac ekimbashoba upro esmis vidre tanamedrove mecnierebis migcevebi.
zogi matgani qvelaper axals gaurbis, zogs ki axalis agmomchenis mimart cudi
grjnoba ushlis xels siaxlit sargeblobashi. orive shemtxevashi cagebuli
rchebian, iseve rogorc sabcota genetikuri mecniereba lisenkos cqalobit.

Levani

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