HAPPY NEW YEAR!
Dimitry Volshebnik
Happy New Year to everybody!
Make love not war :)
--
FREEDOM FOR CRIMEA from Ukrainian occupation!
http://www.angelfire.com/ak2/freedomcrimea
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
Bernd Senczuk
A Happy NEW Year without from Dimitry Volshebnik!!!
Give greetings to Chirinovskyj and his funny smell
Dimitry Volshebnik + Chirinovskyj == loving Jews, loving they.
Bernd Senczuk
Need CRIMEA such a Schybenyka?
Irakly M.
>
>Make love not war :)
>FREEDOM FOR CRIMEA from Ukrainian occupation!
Happy New Year, Dimitri!!! But your appeal is not love. It is war.
Irakly
Irakly M.
Dimitry Volshebnik
>
> Give greetings to Chirinovskyj and his funny smell
>
> Dimitry Volshebnik + Chirinovskyj == loving Jews, loving they.
>
Bernd, have you lost your head?
>
--
FREEDOM FOR CRIMEA from Ukrainian occupation!
Dimitry Volshebnik
>
Tak derzhat' zachem golova cheloveku!?
Dimitry Volshebnik
>
>
> Irakly
>
Well peace and war are always close together!
Bernd Senczuk
Ukrajina + Crimea + BSenczuk = Soborna Ukrajina
Dimitry Volshebnik = Peter 1 + Jekataryna == nothing == JASYR ukrainian,
===
Ukrajina + Crimea = Ukrajina == Bernd Senczuk + bulava
Dimitry Volshebnik + Crimea =? == Dimitry Volshebnik - head
Bernd Senczuk
occupation!
Bernd Senczuk + war == Ukrajina = Crimea == Soborna Ukrajina
Bernd Senczuk
FREEDOM FOR CRIMEA from Ukrainian occupation!
Only can be:
Ukraine = Crimea and Crimea = Ukraine but
Ukraine + Crimea without you
A happy new Year in Moskov with the smell from Chirinvskyj
or
byry mij p'jastuk
sincerely
Bernd with all Ukraine (Crimea)
Michael Lipin
Bernd Senczuk
mean's
Soborna Ukrajina = all Ukrainian-Ukrajina in one cathedral
Michael Lipin <li...@beer.com> schrieb in Nachricht
368D0DA6...@beer.com...///
Michael Lipin
Amazons
>
> eh.... nationalist damned. nationalism never leads to anything good.
>
Nationalism is a good and positive thing when it is nothing more
nor less than the love of one's country and its culture, language, etc..
Most Americans, French, Germans, English, etc.. are very nationalistic.
But when nationalism gets perverted into chauvinism then it becomes a
bad thing because it denies others the right to love their land
and culture. This is what was so evil about the Russian Czarists
and Soviets. Their nationalism wasn't nationalism at all but sick
Russian chauvinism as they pursued the destruction of the languages
and cultures of the nations that they conquered and oppressed. They
were even worse than the Nazis who were also chauvinistic.
spea...@netcom.ca
>
> In article <76fjiv$nr0$1...@news.sovam.com>,
> "Irakly M." <ira...@online.ru> wrote:
> > >Happy New Year to everybody!
> > >
> > >Make love not war :)
> >
> >
> >
> > Irakly
> >
>
> Well peace and war are always close together!
>
> --
Evidently, another Russian tradition...
GHC
spea...@netcom.ca
>
> >Happy New Year to everybody!
> >
> >Make love not war :)
>
> >FREEDOM FOR CRIMEA from Ukrainian occupation!
>
> Happy New Year, Dimitri!!! But your appeal is not love. It is war.
>
> Irakly
If peace is not the object, then it is but a punctuation
in an endless war...
GHC
Bernd Senczuk
Michael Lipin curse Bernd Senczuk = umri kurva fasistka!
and now
Michael Lipin curse Bernd Senczuk = eh.... nationalist damned
Yet, a little bit more Hamburgers from McDonalds and you catch it.
Bernd Senczuk + nationlist damned = Ukrajina without
whites-reds-Peter1-Stalin-Hitler and and Michael Lipin
(Crap!Crap!Crap!)
It's such a nice fealing, you know, know you.
Childfucker + New Year + Michael Lipin == Childfucker
I can't believe it
greetings to Cherenovskyj, you nothing from white
Bernd
Michael Lipin <li...@beer.com> schrieb in Nachricht
368D53BB...@beer.com...///
>eh.... nationalist damned. nationalism never leads to anything good.
>
Bernd Senczuk
Michael Lipin curse Bernd Senczuk = umri kurva fasistka!
and now
Michael Lipin curse Bernd Senczuk = eh.... nationalist damned
Yet, a little bit more Hamburgers from McDonalds and you catch it.
Bernd Senczuk + nationlist damned = Ukrajina without
whites-reds-Peter1-Stalin-Hitler and and Michael Lipin
(Crap!Crap!Crap!)
It's such a nice fealing, you know, know you.
Childfucker + New Year + Michael Lipin == Childfucker
I can't believe it
greetings to Cherenovskyj, you nothing from white
BerndMichael Lipin <li...@beer.com> schrieb in Nachricht
Dimitry Volshebnik
Bernd + Senczuk = brain dead kid.
>
--
FREEDOM FOR CRIMEA from Ukrainian occupation!
Dimitry Volshebnik
You are master of that!
>
> FREEDOM FOR CRIMEA from Ukrainian occupation!
>
> Only can be:
>
> Ukraine = Crimea and Crimea = Ukraine but
>
> Ukraine + Crimea without you
>
> A happy new Year in Moskov with the smell from Chirinvskyj
> or
> byry mij p'jastuk
>
> sincerely
>
You like this game, don't you?
Bernd Senczuk
Misha
Bernd Senczuk
That was too much.
We need urgent the exactly names and if it goes the address of this Mr.
Send it to:
Amazons
>
> Bandera - He is a simple criminal!!!
Bandera was murdered by the Soviet Russians in Munich Germany
by a soviet agent named Bogdan Stashynsky who I believe eventually
defected to the West and told the story. The Soviet Russians
have always tried to slander Bandera because Bandera worked for
and fought for Ukraine's independence from the Evil Empire.
Bandera won.
aid...@my-dejanews.com
ama...@earthlink.net wrote:
> Michael Lipin wrote:
> >
> > eh.... nationalist damned. nationalism never leads to anything good.
> >
>
> nor less than the love of one's country and its culture, language, etc..
> Most Americans, French, Germans, English, etc.. are very nationalistic.
> But when nationalism gets perverted into chauvinism then it becomes a
> bad thing because it denies others the right to love their land
> and culture. This is what was so evil about the Russian Czarists
> and Soviets. Their nationalism wasn't nationalism at all but sick
> Russian chauvinism as they pursued the destruction of the languages
> and cultures of the nations that they conquered and oppressed. They
> were even worse than the Nazis who were also chauvinistic.
Your yelling makes me feel sorry that despite all efforts Russian Nazis Soviet
Czarists havent manage to destory culture and language you speak.
A.
firefly
EVERY BODY POINT TGHE FINGER TO SOMEBODY ELSE. HOW MANY WAR CRIMINALS ARE IN
DENMARK?
firefly
firefly
Bernd Senczuk
That was too much.
Send it to:
postm...@vorochobnyk.inka.de
firefly <hvi...@worldnet.att.net> schrieb in Nachricht
76ls1k$1...@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net...///
>AND YOU TOO!!!!
>
>
Bernd Senczuk
That was too much.
We need urgent the exactly names and if it goes the address of this Mr.
Send it to:
postm...@vorochobnyk.inka.de
firefly <hvi...@worldnet.att.net> schrieb in Nachricht
76ls06$m...@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net...///
David Zlotchenko
You are dam righ, Bandera won: Ukraine, once a home to largest in Russian
imprerior compact populations of Jews is now one of the thinest and sickest.
Massage your brains before you chose yourself a hero.
David.
:
--
--
David Zlotchenko
Sr. Systems Analyst Phone: (01) (423) 974-6601
Academic & Research Services Email: zlot...@utk.edu
University of Tennessee WWW: http://www.oars.utk.edu/~zlotchen
noone
David Zlotchenko wrote:
> Amazons (ama...@earthlink.net) wrote:
> : Misha wrote:
> : >
> : > Bandera - He is a simple criminal!!!
> :
> :
> : Bandera was murdered by the Soviet Russians in Munich Germany
> : by a soviet agent named Bogdan Stashynsky who I believe eventually
> : defected to the West and told the story. The Soviet Russians
> : have always tried to slander Bandera because Bandera worked for
> : and fought for Ukraine's independence from the Evil Empire.
> : Bandera won.
>
> You are dam righ, Bandera won: Ukraine, once a home to largest in Russian
> imprerior compact populations of Jews is now one of the thinest and sickest.
This decline in the Jewish population happened during the russian occupation
did it not ?? go back to moskow komrad
Michael Kagalenko
]Misha wrote:
]>
]> Bandera - He is a simple criminal!!!
]
]
]Bandera was murdered by the Soviet Russians in Munich Germany
]by a soviet agent named Bogdan Stashynsky who I believe eventually
]defected to the West and told the story. The Soviet Russians
]have always tried to slander Bandera because Bandera worked for
]and fought for Ukraine's independence from the Evil Empire.
]Bandera won.
Ukrainian "national heroes" tend to be criminals and traitors, like
Bandera or Mazeppa (who tried to sell out everyone, including the nezalezhna,
and ended up with nothing. How amusing that the Ukrainian nationalists
promote such a pathetic loser)
Dimitry Volshebnik
aid...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> In article <368D5F...@earthlink.net>,
> ama...@earthlink.net wrote:
> > Michael Lipin wrote:
> > >
> > > eh.... nationalist damned. nationalism never leads to anything good.
> > >
> >
> > Nationalism is a good and positive thing when it is nothing more
> > nor less than the love of one's country and its culture, language, etc..
> > Most Americans, French, Germans, English, etc.. are very nationalistic.
> > But when nationalism gets perverted into chauvinism then it becomes a
> > bad thing because it denies others the right to love their land
> > and culture. This is what was so evil about the Russian Czarists
> > and Soviets. Their nationalism wasn't nationalism at all but sick
> > Russian chauvinism as they pursued the destruction of the languages
> > and cultures of the nations that they conquered and oppressed. They
> > were even worse than the Nazis who were also chauvinistic.
>
> Your yelling makes me feel sorry that despite all efforts Russian Nazis Soviet
> Czarists havent manage to destory culture and language you speak.
> A.
They hardly tried, American "melting pot" is the best weapon to do that!
> >
> >
>
>
--
FREEDOM FOR CRIMEA from Ukrainian occupation!
http://www.angelfire.com/ak2/freedomcrimea
firefly
GRycar
Perhaps it would be a good idea to put your brain in gear before engaging your
keyboard!
Your statement that:
>You are dam righ, Bandera won: Ukraine, once a home to largest in >Russian
>imprerior compact populations of Jews is now one of the thinest and >sickest.
>Massage your brains before you chose yourself a hero.
is completely irresponsive to the issue.
Bandera despised the Nazi's as he despised the communists. His goal was the
formation of a sovereign Ukrainian state and nothing else.
What does the home of the largest Jewish home in Russia has to do with
Ukrainian Sovereignty?
How is Ukrainian independance inimical to the Jewish population?
Do learn to think.
George R
Bernd Senczuk
Bernd
Michael Kagalenko <mkag...@lynx02.dac.neu.edu> schrieb in Nachricht
76mked$o...@lynx02.dac.neu.edu...///
Amazons
>
> Amazons (ama...@earthlink.net) wrote
> ]Misha wrote:
> ]>
> ]> Bandera - He is a simple criminal!!!
> ]
> ]
> ]Bandera was murdered by the Soviet Russians in Munich Germany
> ]by a soviet agent named Bogdan Stashynsky who I believe eventually
> ]defected to the West and told the story. The Soviet Russians
> ]have always tried to slander Bandera because Bandera worked for
> ]and fought for Ukraine's independence from the Evil Empire.
> ]Bandera won.
> ]
>
> Ukrainian "national heroes" tend to be criminals and traitors, like
> Bandera or Mazeppa (who tried to sell out everyone, including the nezalezhna,
> and ended up with nothing. How amusing that the Ukrainian nationalists
> promote such a pathetic loser)
Like I said, Kagalenko, Stepan Bandera was a Ukrainian freedom fighter
who paid
the ultimate price in fighting both the Nazis and the Soviets. Though
he never
lived to see his country freed from Soviet Russian occupation, you and I
have witnessed it. The Soviet Russians did everything in their power to
smear and discredit Bandera and that you continue to do so shows what
kind of
a person you are. Bandera fought the Evil Soviet Russian Empire and in
the
end he won. Today Bandera is honored all over Ukraine by those who love
freedom and their Ukrainian homeland.
Misha
Asshole.
I bet Senczuk also LOVES his Albanian brothers.
Bernd Senczuk wrote:
> Michael Lipin or Misha:
>
> Dear Sir's
>
> Mr. Michael Lipin, under Michael Lipin and Misha, <li...@beer.com>, reviele
> ukrainians und Jews.
> He trys his anti-Semitic hate to place in the mouth to other people.
>
> He reviele Stepan Bandera, a prizener from nazis KZ as a nazi.
>
> Also can You give me the really name from this person and his adress or you
> may terminate his account.
>
> Otherwise must I think, that you back up anti - Semitic and anti-Ukrainian
> propaganda.
>
> Yours sincerely
>
> bernd....@inka.de
>
Misha
any wrongdoing.
Bernd Senczuk wrote:
> Right, we have the same understanding, but I'm nothing send to yours
> newsgroups, that's they gays
> wilful provoke, but I'll catch them, krov sv'jata.
> I think behind thouse peoples must be a moskovien party leader.
>
> Maybe helpfull for you:
>
> sobaka Dimitry Volshebnik:
>
> IP-Number 209.240.200.26.
>
> WebTV Networks, Inc. (NETBLK-WEBTV-BLK1)
> 2593 Coast Ave.
> Mountain View, CA 94043
> US
>
> Netname: WEBTV-BLK1
> Netblock: 209.240.192.0 - 209.240.207.255
> Maintainer: WBTV
>
> Coordinator:
> WebTV Hostmaster (WH93-ORG-ARIN) hostm...@CORP.WEBTV.NET
> 650 614-4884
> Fax- - 650 326-5277
>
> Michael Lipin or Misha:
>
> Dear Sir's
>
> Mr. Michael Lipin, under Michael Lipin and Misha, <li...@beer.com>, reviele
> ukrainians und Jews.
> He trys his anti-Semitic hate to place in the mouth to other people.
>
> He reviele Stepan Bandera, a prizener from nazis KZ as a nazi.
>
> Also can You give me the really name from this person and his adress or you
> may terminate his account.
>
> Otherwise must I think, that you back up anti - Semitic and anti-Ukrainian
> propaganda.
>
> Yours sincerely
>
> bernd....@inka.de
>
> His provider is:
>
> Email (general questions): in...@randori.com
> Email (report server problems):
> Include USER ID for personal accts sup...@randori.com
> Telephone
> (ISP Sales/Support Only) +1 (530)620-NEWS (6397)
> Mon-Fri, 9am-6pm
> Pacific Standard Time
> Fax +1 (530)620-4FAX (4329)
> Postal Mail: Randori News
> PO Box 409
> Mt Aukum, CA 95656-0409
> USA
>
> Nana Bukhsianidze <gr...@nospammeridianworldservices.com> schrieb in
> Nachricht 368582...@nospammeridianworldservices.com...///
> >Bernd Senczuk wrote:
> >>
> >> You have a little bit learnd, I can say, but you not learned
> >> Michael Lipin curse Bernd Senczuk = umri kurva fasistka!
> >> and now
> >> Michael Lipin curse Bernd Senczuk = eh.... nationalist damned
> >>
> >> Yet, a little bit more Hamburgers from McDonalds and you catch it.
> >>
> >> Bernd Senczuk + nationlist damned = Ukrajina without
> >> whites-reds-Peter1-Stalin-Hitler and and Michael Lipin
> >> (Crap!Crap!Crap!)
> >> It's such a nice fealing, you know, know you.
> >>
> >> Childfucker + New Year + Michael Lipin == Childfucker
> >>
> >> I can't believe it
> >>
> >> greetings to Cherenovskyj, you nothing from white
> >>
> >> BerndMichael Lipin <li...@beer.com> schrieb in Nachricht
> >> 368D53BB...@beer.com...///
> >> >eh.... nationalist damned. nationalism never leads to anything good.
> >> >
> >> >Bernd Senczuk wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> Sobor = a cathedral
> >> >> mean's
> >> >> Soborna Ukrajina = all Ukrainian-Ukrajina in one cathedral
> >> >> Michael Lipin <li...@beer.com> schrieb in Nachricht
> >> >> 368D0DA6...@beer.com...///
> >> >> >what the heck is "soborna ukraina"?
> >> >> >
> >> >> >Bernd Senczuk wrote:
> >> >> >
> >> >> >> Dimitry Volshebnik + Crimea = ?
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> Ukrajina + Crimea + BSenczuk = Soborna Ukrajina
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> Dimitry Volshebnik = Peter 1 + Jekataryna == nothing == JASYR
> >> ukrainian,
> >> >> >> ===
> >> >> >> Ukrajina + Crimea = Ukrajina == Bernd Senczuk + bulava
> >> >> >> Dimitry Volshebnik + Crimea =? == Dimitry Volshebnik - head
> >> >> >
> >> >
> >I read all Ukranian versus Russian and Russain versuss Ukranian messages
> >and decreased the quantitiy of interesting messages on Goergian NG to 0!
> >
> >Try to send to us something less challenging, please. Sometimes it's
> >hard to understand.
> >
> >Some guys are already happy as I see but nevertheless Happy New Year!
> >:-)
> >
> >N.
> >
> >
> >--
> >
> >
> >Please remove "NO SPAM" in email address before replying.
Bernd Senczuk
Dimitry Volshebnik
"Bernd Senczuk" <bernd....@inka.de> wrote:
> Right, we have the same understanding, but I'm nothing send to yours
> newsgroups, that's they gays
> wilful provoke, but I'll catch them, krov sv'jata.
> I think behind thouse peoples must be a moskovien party leader.
>
Bernd is out there to get me and Misha, GOOD LUCK, I think first we have to
check Bernd's mental health.
spea...@netcom.ca
>
> Amazons (ama...@earthlink.net) wrote:
> : Misha wrote:
> : >
> : > Bandera - He is a simple criminal!!!
> :
> :
> : Bandera was murdered by the Soviet Russians in Munich Germany
> : by a soviet agent named Bogdan Stashynsky who I believe eventually
> : defected to the West and told the story. The Soviet Russians
> : have always tried to slander Bandera because Bandera worked for
> : and fought for Ukraine's independence from the Evil Empire.
> : Bandera won.
>
> imprerior compact populations of Jews is now one of the thinest and sickest.
>
> Massage your brains before you chose yourself a hero.
>
> :
>
> --
> --
> David Zlotchenko
> Sr. Systems Analyst Phone: (01) (423) 974-6601
> Academic & Research Services Email: zlot...@utk.edu
> University of Tennessee WWW: http://www.oars.utk.edu/~zlotchen
A very concrete response from someone employed as an analyst.
What systems do you analyze?
Perhaps, its phrenology...?
GHC
spea...@netcom.ca
>
> In article <76outn$rek$1...@sapa.inka.de>,
> "Bernd Senczuk" <bernd....@inka.de> wrote:
> > Right, we have the same understanding, but I'm nothing send to yours
> > newsgroups, that's they gays
> > wilful provoke, but I'll catch them, krov sv'jata.
> > I think behind thouse peoples must be a moskovien party leader.
> >
>
> Bernd is out there to get me and Misha, GOOD LUCK, I think first we have to
> check Bernd's mental health.
>
> --
Incidentally, wasn't that what the two antagonists said about
Schwartzenegger in the film "Raw Deal"...?
GHC
fire...@my-dejanews.com
mkag...@lynx.dac.neu.edu wrote:
> Amazons (ama...@earthlink.net) wrote
> ]Misha wrote:
> ]>
> ]> Bandera - He is a simple criminal!!!
> ]
> ]
> ]Bandera was murdered by the Soviet Russians in Munich Germany
> ]by a soviet agent named Bogdan Stashynsky who I believe eventually
> ]defected to the West and told the story. The Soviet Russians
> ]have always tried to slander Bandera because Bandera worked for
> ]and fought for Ukraine's independence from the Evil Empire.
> ]Bandera won.
>
> Ukrainian "national heroes" tend to be criminals and traitors, like
> Bandera or Mazeppa (who tried to sell out everyone, including the nezalezhna,
> and ended up with nothing. How amusing that the Ukrainian nationalists
> promote such a pathetic loser)
>
Most "national heroes" of any country can be considered criminals or traitors
by their enemies. It takes time to create a real national hero -- clean up
the image, conveniently forget the atrocities committed. Ukraine is getting
the chance to do that just now. So, don't you worry -- we're getting there.
In 50 years both Mazepa and Bandera will look shiny and new.
David Zlotchenko
: Zlotchenko;
:
: Perhaps it would be a good idea to put your brain in gear before engaging
your
: keyboard!
:
: Your statement that:
: >You are dam righ, Bandera won: Ukraine, once a home to largest in
: >imprerior compact populations of Jews is now one of the thinest and
>sickest.
:
: >Massage your brains before you chose yourself a hero.
: is completely irresponsive to the issue.
How can you be so blind folded? Did Hitler simply wanted Germans to
travel around the world freely?
:
: Bandera despised the Nazi's as he despised the communists. His goal was
the
: formation of a sovereign Ukrainian state and nothing else.
:
: What does the home of the largest Jewish home in Russia has to do with
: Ukrainian Sovereignty?
:
: How is Ukrainian independance inimical to the Jewish population?
:
: Do learn to think.
:
: George R
George,
Ukrainian independenece has nothing to with life of Jews if one
reasons hyphothetically. And that is not at all what I was saying.
My responce was only to a person who chose Bandera as a hero.
A nacionalist, not a civilized patriot or a Robin Hood of
Ukrainian oprressed destiny was your Bandera, just as in
many ways Zviad Gamsahurdia of Georgia.
TRUTCHI
>A nacionalist, not a civilized patriot or a Robin Hood of
>Ukrainian oprressed destiny was your Bandera, just as in
>many ways Zviad Gamsahurdia of Georgia.
Stepan Bandera was a Ukrainian nationalist, yes. He was, and is a true hero and
an example of what Ukrainians always wanted, and still are willing to die to
achieve- total and unequivocable independence from any nation that seeks to
oppress Ukraine.
You can't understand anything about Bandera, OUN-UPA, or any Ukrainian
because you aren't lucky enough to be one. The only way you can feel even an
iota of pleasure is to speak untruths, mumble Russian/Soviet propaganda, and
demean those that know better than you.
History has shown who was right. Try as you may, you can't change it.
Michael Kagalenko
]I Think you need a long stay in ukrainian prizon.
It might be that you do. But who cares ? You are little geek of
no consequence. You can't even write in English correctly. In short,
you are typical Ukrainian nationalist: Dumb, ignorant, indoctrinated
and obnoxious. Go away.
]
]Bernd
]Michael Kagalenko <mkag...@lynx02.dac.neu.edu> schrieb in Nachricht
]76mked$o...@lynx02.dac.neu.edu...///
]>Amazons (ama...@earthlink.net) wrote
]
L.Gordeev
On Mon, 28 Dec 1998, Nana Bukhsianidze wrote to soc.culture.russian:
> I can't estimate Bendera, since I have no enough knowledge about him.
> So I can't argue.
Cool, Nana.
L.G
Danko
TRUTCHI <tru...@aol.com> wrote in article
<19990106181027...@ng38.aol.com>...
> >My responce was only to a person who chose Bandera as a hero.
> >A nacionalist, not a civilized patriot or a Robin Hood of
> >Ukrainian oprressed destiny was your Bandera, just as in
> >many ways Zviad Gamsahurdia of Georgia.
>
> Stepan Bandera was a Ukrainian nationalist, yes. He was, and is a true
hero and
> an example of what Ukrainians always wanted, and still are willing to die
to
> achieve- total and unequivocable independence from any nation that seeks
to
> oppress Ukraine.
Is this what Ukrainians wanted, or just SOME of them?
> You can't understand anything about Bandera, OUN-UPA, or any Ukrainian
> because you aren't lucky enough to be one. The only way you can feel even
an
> iota of pleasure is to speak untruths, mumble Russian/Soviet propaganda,
and
> demean those that know better than you.
> History has shown who was right. Try as you may, you can't change
it.
History so far has not shown anything. Are nationalists in the majority in
government? Are they controlling Ukraine's destiny? Do they have ANY
relevant influence on thoughts and actions of common Ukrainians? Get real,
yes Ukraine is an independent state, no, those who fought for it prefer to
stay abroad. Look you, Amazon, GeorgeR and others are saying that "Bandera
won" but do not seem to be packing. Why not? Go and enjoy your victory!
Danko
Danko
Amazons <ama...@earthlink.net> wrote in article
<36902F...@earthlink.net>...
> Michael Kagalenko wrote:
> >
> > Amazons (ama...@earthlink.net) wrote
> > ]Misha wrote:
> > ]>
> > ]> Bandera - He is a simple criminal!!!
> > ]
> > ]
> > ]Bandera was murdered by the Soviet Russians in Munich Germany
> > ]by a soviet agent named Bogdan Stashynsky who I believe eventually
> > ]defected to the West and told the story. The Soviet Russians
> > ]have always tried to slander Bandera because Bandera worked for
> > ]and fought for Ukraine's independence from the Evil Empire.
> > ]Bandera won.
> > ]
> >
> > Ukrainian "national heroes" tend to be criminals and traitors, like
> > Bandera or Mazeppa (who tried to sell out everyone, including the
nezalezhna,
> > and ended up with nothing. How amusing that the Ukrainian nationalists
> > promote such a pathetic loser)
>
> Like I said, Kagalenko, Stepan Bandera was a Ukrainian freedom fighter
> who paid
> the ultimate price in fighting both the Nazis and the Soviets. Though
> he never
> lived to see his country freed from Soviet Russian occupation, you and I
> have witnessed it.
Why do you not go there to ENJOY it? Why only WITNESSING?
5ATbKO MAXHO
borders, "Moja khata skraju nichogo ne znaju".
We will create ALL the essential links between our Motherland and all the
world to gain a control over OUR business.
You are not able to cut this links advising so explicitly, try to use
implicit desinformation or so :)
Our money and our links work for our Motherland.
Enjoying a victory does not mean packing, traveling, dancing, hoping,
drinking or singing...
It means working.
With anarchic salute,
5ATbKO MAXHO
Danko <1...@321.com> wrote in article
<01be3ae1$9b9776c0$18f9869f@default>...
supe...@my-dejanews.com
hero. Both were patriots; both were extremely nationalistic; both used
violence to achieve their goals, murdering not only their sworn enemies but
also mere political opponents; both were blatantly anti-semitic and employed
genocidal tactics to "clean" their land of Jews; both had commited wartime
crimes. There was a large number of patriots in both Germany and Ukraine who
did not call for the extermination of the entire peoples and did not resort
to the violence where it was not justified.
In article <77064s$e2m$1...@gaia.ns.utk.edu>,
> My responce was only to a person who chose Bandera as a hero.
> A nacionalist, not a civilized patriot or a Robin Hood of
> Ukrainian oprressed destiny was your Bandera, just as in
> many ways Zviad Gamsahurdia of Georgia.
>
> David.
>
> --
> --
> David Zlotchenko
> Sr. Systems Analyst Phone: (01) (423) 974-6601
> Academic & Research Services Email: zlot...@utk.edu
> University of Tennessee WWW: http://www.oars.utk.edu/~zlotchen
>
--
-----------------------------------------------
Say what you think THEN think of what you've said
supe...@my-dejanews.com
tru...@aol.com (TRUTCHI) wrote:
> You can't understand anything about Bandera, OUN-UPA, or any Ukrainian
> because you aren't lucky enough to be one.
Here it is, thank you. A beautiful example of a nazi-type slogan. Of course,
you are the lucky one, being a Bandera-like patriot (had Hitler been born a
Ukrainian, he'd be joining you in your ranks).
Amazons
> > >A nacionalist, not a civilized patriot or a Robin Hood of
> > >Ukrainian oprressed destiny was your Bandera, just as in
> > >many ways Zviad Gamsahurdia of Georgia.
> >
> hero and
> > an example of what Ukrainians always wanted, and still are willing to die
> to
> > achieve- total and unequivocable independence from any nation that seeks
> to
> > oppress Ukraine.
>
> Is this what Ukrainians wanted, or just SOME of them?
>
> an
> > iota of pleasure is to speak untruths, mumble Russian/Soviet propaganda,
> and
> > demean those that know better than you.
> > History has shown who was right. Try as you may, you can't change
> it.
>
> government? Are they controlling Ukraine's destiny? Do they have ANY
> relevant influence on thoughts and actions of common Ukrainians? Get real,
> yes Ukraine is an independent state, no, those who fought for it prefer to
> stay abroad. Look you, Amazon, GeorgeR and others are saying that "Bandera
> won" but do not seem to be packing. Why not? Go and enjoy your victory!
We are enjoying our victory!
Tremendously, I might add!
And for that I thank God, and Him alone, as I have stated many times
before, because almost no one outside of Ukraine wanted to see a free
Ukraine, no, not George Bush, no, not Gorbachov, no, not the West
Europeans,
no, not the majority of the world and so the Ukrainian nation has *no
one*
to thank for their freedom and independence but *God alone*!
But now that God has given them their freedom, they must roll up their
sleeves and *FIGHT* to secure their freedom otherwise the likes of
Semonenko and Tkachenko will once again lead them into slavery.
> Danko
As for Bandera, he was, he is and he will always be a Ukrainian hero!!!
Danko
5ATbKO MAXHO <barv...@hotmail.com> wrote in article
<01be3af2$3b291f80$0f0614ac@pilipenko>...
> Hey man, do not simplify our task. It is not to be closed within
Ukrainian
> borders, "Moja khata skraju nichogo ne znaju".
What kind of borders you, as an ANARCHIST are talking about?
> We will create ALL the essential links between our Motherland and all the
> world to gain a control over OUR business.
Do you have any idea what anarchism is all about? Nestor Ivanovich would
not have been proud and probably would have been extremely pissed off with
your using his name as a nick.
> You are not able to cut this links advising so explicitly, try to use
> implicit desinformation or so :)
>
> Our money and our links work for our Motherland.
Define "Motherland" from your "anarchistic" perspective.
> Enjoying a victory does not mean packing, traveling, dancing, hoping,
> drinking or singing...
> It means working.
Yes. But working to which end. You've got what you wanted. Go there and
live in it.
> With anarchic salute,
>
> 5ATbKO MAXHO
>
P.S. You are as much an anarchist as Saddam is a democrat. How do you marry
the principles of anarchism with issues of national independence. The
latter is issue of stateship, it calls for replacement of one state with
another, while anarchism calls for distraction of state in any shape or
form. And even if you tend to be anarcho-syndicalist, you still would be
faced with the same inconsistency. Anarchism (whether in its positive or
negative form) is a thing which is very hard to marry with nationalism. You
may not remember that, but the person whose name you use as a nick was
highly decorated by the Bolshevik government for, inter alia, helping the
Red Army to take the Crimea.
Amazons
>
> In my opinion, Bandera was as much a Ukrainian hero as Hitler was a German
> hero. Both were patriots; both were extremely nationalistic; both used
> violence to achieve their goals, murdering not only their sworn enemies but
> also mere political opponents; both were blatantly anti-semitic and employed
> genocidal tactics to "clean" their land of Jews; both had commited wartime
> crimes. There was a large number of patriots in both Germany and Ukraine who
> did not call for the extermination of the entire peoples and did not resort
> to the violence where it was not justified.
Your opinion and 3 bits might get you a cup of coffee in a cheap
restaurant,
but your information is totally wrong. If you want to compare Bandera,
you
have to compare him to the likes of George Washington and not Hitler.
dave
something?
Danko <1...@321.com> wrote in message <01be3bee$eb5935a0$8ff9869f@default>...
Yevgeniy Chizhikov
Nana Bukhsianidze wrote:
> Well, I think this is what Ukranians tried to avoid in 40s but in the
> terms of political events they choosed the wrong side. They had to be
> with "Russians", act as "Russians" and after the "Russian" victory over
> Germany try to struggle for their place in the World which in many cases
> preferes to be a blind dumb.
Victory against Germans was achieved by every nation which formed USSR, however it
is documented fact that Russians were disproportional OVER represented among the
people who joint or drafted in the Red Army and among solders who died in World
War II. Interesting that majority of the nationalities are under represented among
the solders of the Red Army, but they are over represented among solders who
surrendered to Germans and served in the German units.
Yevgeniy Chizhikov.
Nana Bukhsianidze
>
> Is this the right NG for this discussion? Was Bandera from Georgia or
> something?
Dave are you American?
I think that Georgians want to relax for a while. :-)
Meanwhile here we solve problem of Ukranian nationalizm.
I started to find this discussion interesting.
The topic here shows that in 40s Ukranian people tried to become
independent from Soviet Union. If I will be more precise from Russia.
Ukranians were between two scizoprenics then: Stalin and Hitler. They
had to make hard and tragical choice.
Now we all nations of Soviet Union face the problem created and
ingrained
during those times in the awareness of millions living on the earth.
For them we don't exist. We including everything produced in our
countries are called Russian.
Honestly talking how many Americans know what is Georgian Tea? I
discovered that apparently it is "Russian Tea"! Thank you World for
being so neglecting. For how long is this mental darkness going to
continue?
Well, I think this is what Ukranians tried to avoid in 40s but in the
terms of political events they choosed the wrong side. They had to be
with "Russians", act as "Russians" and after the "Russian" victory over
Germany try to struggle for their place in the World which in many cases
preferes to be a blind dumb.
Nana
--
Nana Bukhsianidze
> terms of political events they choosed the wrong side.
generally Ukranians.
Bernd Senczuk
Thanks a lot
Bernd Senczuk
Dimitry Volshebnik
Nana Bukhsianidze <gr...@nospammeridianworldservices.com> wrote:
>
>
> Now we all nations of Soviet Union face the problem created and
> ingrained
> during those times in the awareness of millions living on the earth.
> For them we don't exist. We including everything produced in our
> countries are called Russian.
Well I'm sure people stopped calling you Russian, but what if people still
do?!? Do you report to the police as a insult?!? As I understand calling you
"Russian" would be even worse than call you "bitch".
> Honestly talking how many Americans know what is >Georgian Tea?
Americans will answer something like "I don't care if they grow tea in
Georgia or Florida"
> I
> discovered that apparently it is "Russian Tea"!
You should try it sometime, don't forget to mix with vodka :)
>Thank you World for
> being so neglecting. For how long is this mental darkness going to
> continue?
Please Nana tell to the world!!!!
--
FREEDOM FOR CRIMEA from Ukrainian occupation!
http://www.angelfire.com/ak2/freedomcrimea
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
Bernd Senczuk
Chizhikov.
Thanks a lot
Bernd Senczuk
36981564...@popmail.csuohio.edu...///
>
>
>Nana Bukhsianidze wrote:
>
>> Well, I think this is what Ukranians tried to avoid in 40s but in the
>> with "Russians", act as "Russians" and after the "Russian" victory over
>> Germany try to struggle for their place in the World which in many cases
>> preferes to be a blind dumb.
>
Bernd Senczuk
Bahato uspichiv bazhaju
Bernd
Dimitry Volshebnik <vesn...@hotmail.com> schrieb in Nachricht
779gfb$ook$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com...///
Danko
messages there. It was done automatically through "reply to the group"
function.
God, I miss Gagra!
Danko
Danko
Amazons <ama...@earthlink.net> wrote in article
Who are "them"? Are you now listing yourself out of Ukrainians?
Isn't this nice? WE got what WE want, now let THEM suffer the consequences.
Ha-ha-ha :):)
Irakly M.
however it
>is documented fact that Russians were disproportional OVER represented
among the
>people who joint or drafted in the Red Army and among solders who died in
World
>War II. Interesting that majority of the nationalities are under
represented among
>the solders of the Red Army, but they are over represented among solders
who
>surrendered to Germans and served in the German units.
>
>Yevgeniy Chizhikov.
When Russian investigated and attached Siberia and other territories in
Russian army there were many people from Ukraine. I think that everyone
sixth. Unless they did
not participation in a defense of Sevastopol in 19 century? Unless
they did not build fleet? Or they did not battle together with Russian in
1725,1812,1914,1941,1979? What about the cultural contribution?
According to this logic at least sixth part of Siberia on validity belongs
to Ukraine. For me there is nothing strange that of Crimea has passed to
Ukraine. It historically is fair. Not all should belong to Russia.Whence
such greed? Somebody in the
world has such large territory how Russia? Really does not suffice? Whether
it is not better to live in the peace with the neighbours and don't try to
take away anything ? Keep that to you while belongs.
How you think why so much units against Red Army were formed? Except for
nationalities there was Vlasov's army. This army was largest among served
in the German units. Not a platoon or shelfs. There was a whole army!
Today's and last politics of Russia in relation to the neighbours increases
around of itself enemies. The allies already almost did not remain. Even
among the brothers of the slavs.
By the way approximately 700000 Georgians participated in the World War II.
Half from them was lost. The population of Georgia then did not exceed 4
millions. Thus Georgia in which territory was not of battle actions in a
percentage parity has lost even more than Russia. I am sure that
Byelorussians in a percentage parity was lost more too. So it is not
necessary to speak that "documented fact that Russians were disproportional
OVER represented". At least it not fairly.
Irakly M.
Amazons
I am and have *always* claimed to be an American!
BUT UNLIKE YOU I AM NOT ASHAMED OF MY UKRAINIAN ROOTS AND DO LOVE
UKRAINE AND ITS PEOPLE, LANGUAGE, HISTORY AND CULTURE!!!
Amazons
>
> Nana Bukhsianidze wrote:
>
> > Well, I think this is what Ukranians tried to avoid in 40s but in the
> > terms of political events they choosed the wrong side. They had to be
> > with "Russians", act as "Russians" and after the "Russian" victory over
> > Germany try to struggle for their place in the World which in many cases
> > preferes to be a blind dumb.
>
> is documented fact that Russians were disproportional OVER represented among the
> people who joint or drafted in the Red Army and among solders who died in World
> War II. Interesting that majority of the nationalities are under represented among
> the solders of the Red Army, but they are over represented among solders who
> surrendered to Germans and served in the German units.
>
> Yevgeniy Chizhikov.
I am not sure about your statistics Cheezball, but many Ukrainians
defected
to the "Banderite" UPA, those Ukrainian Nationalists who just didn't
understand
how loving and kind the Russians were and how much they loved the
Ukrainian
people and were laying down their lives for the Ukrainians against the
Nazis.
The Russians loved the Ukrainians so much that they were forced to
exterminate
millions of bloodsucking Ukrainian kulaks, even women and children. All
because
they loved the Ukrainian people so much. The Ukrainian Nationalists
just didn't
understand the love of Mother Russia. The Russians loved the Ukrainians
so much
that they even wanted to make good Russians out of them and even had to
force them
to take Russian language classes for free. Imagine that, free Russian
language classes
and still many Ukrainian Nationalists did not want it. Even free
vacations were given
to many Ukrainian Nationalists in Siberia so that they could learn to
appreciate
how much Mother Russia loved them. Those Ukrainain nationalists just
didn't
appreciate anything that Mother Russia did for them. Yes, it is
documented fact.
Yevgeniy Chizhikov
Amazons wrote:
> I am not sure about your statistics Cheezball, but many Ukrainians
> defected
> to the "Banderite" UPA,
More correct they become so called Hiwis. According to Germans, Russians were the best
solders in Red Army. Guess, which were the worse. You guessed it, Ukrainians a long with
all kinds of people of Caucasus, Tatars, and so on. Those people far more often
surrendered to Germans and served Germans virtually as slaves. Of course, Germans did
not allow them to fight Russians, because they did not last long against Red Army, so
they allow those Hiwis to feed horses, pick up the horses shit, bring food to German
solders, build roads, and so on. Sometimes they allowed those Hiwis to fight partisans
in Ukraine, Belarus, or even France. Perhaps you should update your sources, far more
real Ukrainians fought in the Red Army and far more Ukrainians traitors served German
Army than join UPA.
Yevgeniy Chizhikov.
Nana Bukhsianidze
>
> In article <3698F3...@nospammeridianworldservices.com>,
> Nana Bukhsianidze <gr...@nospammeridianworldservices.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> > Now we all nations of Soviet Union face the problem created and
> > ingrained
> > during those times in the awareness of millions living on the earth.
> > For them we don't exist. We including everything produced in our
> > countries are called Russian.
>
> Well I'm sure people stopped calling you Russian, but what if people still
> do?!? Do you report to the police as a insult?!? As I understand calling you
> "Russian" would be even worse than call you "bitch".
>
> > Honestly talking how many Americans know what is >Georgian Tea?
>
> Americans will answer something like "I don't care if they grow tea in
> Georgia or Florida"
Russians who hate and discriminate others for their accent, for their
skin color and for their nationality.
>
> > I
> > discovered that apparently it is "Russian Tea"!
> You should try it sometime, don't forget to mix with vodka :)
See now I discovered the recipe! Apparently Russian tea is any tea with
vodka.
>
> Please Nana tell to the world!!!!
:-)
Caught me on the word, Russian?
You don't hear my accent, that's why you still have a bit of humor.
Otherwise you would sound histerical.:-)
Nana
> FREEDOM FOR CRIMEA from Ukrainian occupation!
> http://www.angelfire.com/ak2/freedomcrimea
>
> -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
> http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
--
Yevgeniy Chizhikov
Irakly M. wrote:
> When Russian investigated and attached Siberia and other territories in
> Russian army there were many people from Ukraine.
Nope. They moved there later. More like in 1700's, when Siberia already had been
"won" by army of 300 Cossacks and Russians. There were not much war to even
speak of.
> I think that everyone
> sixth. Unless they did
> not participation in a defense of Sevastopol in 19 century? Unless
> they did not build fleet?
Perhaps it would be nice to look into history books. Fleet was build mainly by
Russians workers. According to even 1890's statistics almost NO ukrainian lived
in ANY city in Ukraine or anywhere else. The Kiev, for example was was 90%
Russian and the rest were Jews and Polaks. One would had hard time finding
Ukrainian there. If I would be you, I would not even spoke about Eastern
Ukraine, South Ukraine, or Odessa. Ukrainians even in rural areas where
outnumbered by Russians as far ago back as 16 century. Few people know that in
reality Donezk and South region of the Ukraine is far more "Ukranized" today
than it was in 1890. "Russification" of Ukraine happened not in this century, it
happened in 16-18 century. Russians come into Eastern Ukraine, which at that
time was not populated by Ukrainians. It was called Malorussia, and latter it
name spread across whole Ukraine, which at that time was known as "okraina".
Only in this century happened "Ukranization" of Ukraine. Despite all the blame,
Ukrainian population grew in predonamently Russian areas even during famine and
whole era of Communism. Today, many Ukrainian nationalist want make people to
believe that Russians in Crimea, Odessa, South East Ukraine, and East Ukraine
only came in this century during Communist rule which try to destroy the
Ukrainians. It is bunch of shit, Russians lived in this areas for centuries and
often longer than Ukrainians themselves. In general, even predominately Russian
regions of Ukraine had been Ukranized in the last 100 years. Net growth of
Ukrainians over Russians had been 3.5 millions in the South, 3 millions in the
South-West, and 1.5 millions in Donetzk-Kiev region. It means that places like
South and Donezk are LESS Russian by percentage from population today than 100
years ago. So, in fact during Soviet times percentage of Ukrainian population in
Ukraine increased, not decrease. See: "Nationality and population change in
Russia and the USSR: an evoluation of census data, 1897-1970".
> Or they did not battle together with Russian in
> 1725,1812,1914,1941,1979? What about the cultural contribution?
> According to this logic at least sixth part of Siberia on validity belongs
> to Ukraine.
Keep dreaming. To be historically fair, Eastern Ukraine, Crimea, South Western
Ukraine,. Western Ukraine, lands connected to Ukraine from Poland, Slovakia,
Romania, and Russia, had been connected to Ukraine by the Russian guns. I
willing to make a deal. We give you, 1/6 of Sibiria, and you give us 90% of
Ukraine.
> For me there is nothing strange that of Crimea has passed to
> Ukraine. It historically is fair. Not all should belong to Russia.
It was won by Russians. As well as most of Ukraine.
> Whence
> such greed?
Exactly, where such a greed on lands Russian gave Ukraine.
> Somebody in the
> world has such large territory how Russia?
Well, it would had been even larger, if some dumb Russian leader would not to
please everyone by throwing whole countries here and there. You missing a fact
that 60% of Ukraine was in hands of Turks in 1500's. The only reason why this
land belongs to Ukraine, is because Russians put it there.
> Really does not suffice? Whether
> it is not better to live in the peace with the neighbours and don't try to
> take away anything ?
Look who is talking about 1/6 of Sibiria. If I would be you, I would close my
mouth and sit quietly. Ukraine own more land than it historically should.
Instead we here all kinds of Ukrainian nationalists looking for land in Siberia,
Caucasus, Belarus, and even Russia.
> Keep that to you while belongs.
> How you think why so much units against Red Army were formed? Except for
> nationalities there was Vlasov's army. This army was largest among served
> in the German units. Not a platoon or shelfs. There was a whole army!
Perhaps opening a history book would be nice. So called "Army" never exceeded
size of few divisions. More importantly each German division had up to 2,000 so
called Hiwis, or helpers from "Russian" POWs. They were predominately Ukrainian,
Tatar, and so on.
> By the way approximately 700000 Georgians participated in the World War II.
> Half from them was lost. The population of Georgia then did not exceed 4
> millions. Thus Georgia in which territory was not of battle actions in a
> percentage parity has lost even more than Russia.
Lie. I got statistics right here, only about 50,000 Georgians died in W.W.II. In
fact more Jews died in Soviet Army in W.W.II than Georgians, Armenians, Kazahs,
and half a dozen of other nationalities combined. 350,000 Georgians dead Red
Army is a lie. For information see Krivosheev's "Grif Sekretnosti Snyat" and
Gareev's "Pamyati pavshih".
> I am sure that
> Byelorussians in a percentage parity was lost more too. So it is not
> necessary to speak that "documented fact that Russians were disproportional
> OVER represented". At least it not fairly.
It is a fact. Russians were roughly 50% of the population of USSR. They
accounted for 66% of the Red Army solders dead, and they are under represented
among POWs, only 48%. Most of Ukrainians and Belorussian losses coming from
German treatment of civilians in those countries. As I recall 4.5 million
civilian Ukrainians were killed as result of German policies. While only 1.8
million Russian civilians died as a result of German policies. It is not that
Russians were treated better than Ukrainians, it is just Ukraine was occupied
for 3 full years, while most of Russia is a year or less. It is not change the
fact that traitors were far more common among Ukrainians, Georgians, and the
others than among Russians.
Yevgeniy Chizhikov.
HECTOP MAXHO
I guess you have eaten porridge enough to grow up ?
I see you have perfect plan what Ukrainians ought to do in WWIII ?
Because I could not understand how did you get your current conclusions.
Please, give some more details about your sources. Were they published
anywhere ?
May be you are the son of NKVD cannibal and you have read something
"DSP-confidential" ?
Anyway, go sleep, teen. WWII is done, WWIII is not started yet, so have
some peaceful rest.
True and unfailing warrior for the sake of workers freedom,
the servant of revolution,
HECTOP MAXHO
Yevgeniy Chizhikov <y.chi...@popmail.csuohio.edu> wrote in article
<36998262...@popmail.csuohio.edu>...
Nana Bukhsianidze
Re: Bandera definitely was, he's gone, move on!
Date:
Mon, 11 Jan 1999 19:59:09 -0800
From:
Nana Bukhsianidze <gr...@nospammeridianworldservices.com>
Organization:
Meridian World Services, Ltd.
Newsgroups:
soc.culture.russian, soc.culture.ukrainian, soc.culture.usa,
soc.culture.rep-of-georgia
References:
1 , 2 , 3 , 4 , 5 , 6 , 7 , 8 , 9 , 10
Yevgeniy Chizhikov wrote:
>
> Irakly M. wrote:
>
> > When Russian investigated and attached Siberia and other territories in
> > Russian army there were many people from Ukraine.
>
> Nope. They moved there later. More like in 1700's, when Siberia already had been
> "won" by army of 300 Cossacks and Russians. There were not much war to even
> speak of.
>
>
This was interesting. I have a question how many kids are in everage in
Ukranian houshold? I never heard that they have 12 kids at home.
>
> > Or they did not battle together with Russian in
> > 1725,1812,1914,1941,1979? What about the cultural contribution?
> > According to this logic at least sixth part of Siberia on validity belongs
> > to Ukraine.
>
> Keep dreaming. To be historically fair, Eastern Ukraine, Crimea, South Western
> Ukraine,. Western Ukraine, lands connected to Ukraine from Poland, Slovakia,
> Romania, and Russia, had been connected to Ukraine by the Russian guns.
Wow! Now I discovered what Russians think about Ukraine. Apparently this
country doesn't exist too. Some time ago I learnt from some Russian
usnet historian that Georgia never existed, now I hear other terrible
news! Even Ukraine has no right on existance. Well, I will wait to hear
who is next.
I
> willing to make a deal. We give you, 1/6 of Sibiria, and you give us 90% of
> Ukraine.
>
> > For me there is nothing strange that of Crimea has passed to
> > Ukraine. It historically is fair. Not all should belong to Russia.
>
> You missing a fact
> that 60% of Ukraine was in hands of Turks in 1500's.
Can I give you a question? Who the hell those Turks were? Weren't they
the savage tribes who destroied Constantinopole in 1453? From where did
they come? Does the history make them authorized nation on almost more
then half of Europe? No! Now learn the other history. As Germans don't
claim their rights on Rome, Turks can not claim their right on Greece,
Georgia, Bulgaria, Romania, Ukraine and etc. And if they will do so,
this can be pure violence and nothing more.
The only reason why this
> land belongs to Ukraine, is because Russians put it there.
>
> > Really does not suffice? Whether
> > it is not better to live in the peace with the neighbours and don't try to
> > take away anything ?
>
> Look who is talking about 1/6 of Sibiria. If I would be you, I would close my
> mouth and sit quietly. Ukraine own more land than it historically should.
Same can be said about Russia. It definitely has more land then it
should. I understand, that your ansistors faught for those lands, killed
a lot of people, discriminated a lot of nations, this was definitely
hard work to do. So you gain the result, nobody would know poor Russia
if not this hard work. Now you are celebrities, could you stop on this
please? Why you need for example north Caucasus? Do you really think
that it belongs to Russia?
> Instead we here all kinds of Ukrainian nationalists looking for land in Siberia,
> Caucasus, Belarus, and even Russia.
>
> > Keep that to you while belongs.
> > How you think why so much units against Red Army were formed? Except for
> > nationalities there was Vlasov's army. This army was largest among served
> > in the German units. Not a platoon or shelfs. There was a whole army!
>
> Perhaps opening a history book would be nice. So called "Army" never exceeded
> size of few divisions. More importantly each German division had up to 2,000 so
> called Hiwis, or helpers from "Russian" POWs. They were predominately Ukrainian,
> Tatar, and so on.
>
> > By the way approximately 700000 Georgians participated in the World War II.
> > Half from them was lost. The population of Georgia then did not exceed 4
> > millions. Thus Georgia in which territory was not of battle actions in a
> > percentage parity has lost even more than Russia.
>
> Lie. I got statistics right here, only about 50,000 Georgians died in W.W.II.
What kind of books do you read? That data about Georgian soldiers who
died in WWII is not the product of imagination of Georgian
"nationalists". No, it is first of all empirical misfortune, where
almost every household lost at least one man in that war, and also is
based on Soviet Statistics, which never loved to show anybody's
contribution besides Russia's.
In
> fact more Jews died in Soviet Army in W.W.II than Georgians, Armenians, Kazahs,
> and half a dozen of other nationalities combined. 350,000 Georgians dead Red
> Army is a lie. For information see Krivosheev's "Grif Sekretnosti Snyat" and
> Gareev's "Pamyati pavshih".
I see, this must be new historians.
>
> > I am sure that
> > Byelorussians in a percentage parity was lost more too. So it is not
> > necessary to speak that "documented fact that Russians were disproportional
> > OVER represented". At least it not fairly.
>
> It is a fact. Russians were roughly 50% of the population of USSR. They
> accounted for 66% of the Red Army solders dead, and they are under represented
> among POWs, only 48%.
First of all when there is a war somewhere not for Russia, you can see
many Russians on different sides. This is quite logical. All your
:right" data sais nothing but that the choice Soviet Republics had to
do was tragical. How do you like the fact that the war never touched
Georgia teritorially and almost every 10-th or 11-th person died
fighting against Germans? You definiteley don't like this and that's why
declare that "this number is a lie". How many prosons died in WWII for
example in Brazil? I don't think much.
>It is not change the
> fact that traitors were far more common among Ukrainians, Georgians, and the
> others than among Russians.
If this is so, it is caused by the choice they had to make between two
evil:
1. fashizm and occupation by "superior German nation",
2.comunizm and occupation by "superior Russian nation".
What do you think which one of this two options is more attarctive?
Also, it is not fair to say that a lot of non-russians chosed the first
option. No, most of them prefered the second. Most of them recognized
that Fashizm was more evil for Mankind then Comunizm. They put the
interests of Mankind over the interests of their own nations. Then be
fair and thank them for giving lives for your precious country.
Nana
L.Gordeev
> [BIG SNIP]
> Who the hell those Turks were? Weren't they
> the savage tribes who destroied Constantinopole in 1455?
No. Because Constantinople has been already hmmm destroyed in 1453.
[Hint to all freedom-loving Georgian nationalists:
This happened almost exactly 500 years before Stalin's death.]
[BIG SNIP]
> Most of them recognized
> that Fashizm was more evil for Mankind then Comunizm.
??? What was so evil about hmmm Fascism? After all, Mussolini was better
than Lenin, and afaik his beautiful daughter recently was re-elelected to
Italian Parliament ...
L.G
Urmas Sepp
> After all, Mussolini was better
> than Lenin, and afaik his beautiful daughter recently was re-elelected to
> Italian Parliament ...
>
Methinks its the granddaughter (she sure does look a little too young to be
daughter of someone who died in 1945). Was she really re-elected?
Best!
Urmas
supe...@my-dejanews.com
the following nationalities as having the most Heroes of The Soviet Union:
Russians, Tatars, Belorussians and Jews. Obviously, all these peoples are much
smaller then Russians, so the proportion of Heroes among them is much higher.
In article <77atr1$qh$1...@news.sovam.com>,
"Irakly M." <ira...@online.ru> wrote:
> >Victory against Germans was achieved by every nation which formed USSR,
> however it
> >is documented fact that Russians were disproportional OVER represented
> among the
> >people who joint or drafted in the Red Army and among solders who died in
> World
> >War II. Interesting that majority of the nationalities are under
> represented among
> >the solders of the Red Army, but they are over represented among solders
> who
> >surrendered to Germans and served in the German units.
> >
> >Yevgeniy Chizhikov.
>
> When Russian investigated and attached Siberia and other territories in
> Russian army there were many people from Ukraine. I think that everyone
> sixth. Unless they did
> not participation in a defense of Sevastopol in 19 century? Unless
> they did not build fleet? Or they did not battle together with Russian in
> 1725,1812,1914,1941,1979? What about the cultural contribution?
> According to this logic at least sixth part of Siberia on validity belongs
> to Ukraine. For me there is nothing strange that of Crimea has passed to
> Ukraine. It historically is fair. Not all should belong to Russia.Whence
> such greed? Somebody in the
> world has such large territory how Russia? Really does not suffice? Whether
> it is not better to live in the peace with the neighbours and don't try to
> take away anything ? Keep that to you while belongs.
> How you think why so much units against Red Army were formed? Except for
> nationalities there was Vlasov's army. This army was largest among served
> in the German units. Not a platoon or shelfs. There was a whole army!
> Today's and last politics of Russia in relation to the neighbours increases
> around of itself enemies. The allies already almost did not remain. Even
> among the brothers of the slavs.
> By the way approximately 700000 Georgians participated in the World War II.
> Half from them was lost. The population of Georgia then did not exceed 4
> millions. Thus Georgia in which territory was not of battle actions in a
> percentage parity has lost even more than Russia. I am sure that
> Byelorussians in a percentage parity was lost more too. So it is not
> necessary to speak that "documented fact that Russians were disproportional
> OVER represented". At least it not fairly.
>
> Irakly M.
>
>
-----------------------------------------------
Say what you think THEN think of what you've said
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
Rostyslaw Lewyckyj
On Sat, 9 Jan 1999, Yevgeniy Chizhikov wrote:
>
> Victory against Germans was achieved by every nation which formed USSR, however it
> is documented fact that Russians were disproportional OVER represented among the
> people who joint or drafted in the Red Army and among solders who died in World
> War II.
If memory serves me right, this was hashed over multiple times in the scr
newsgroup under various different subject: headers. The russian claims of
their sacrifices for the empire were generally refuted
> Interesting that majority of the nationalities are under represented among
> the solders of the Red Army, but they are over represented among solders who
> surrendered to Germans and served in the German units.
It is evidence that these colonial troops felt that they were pressed
into service and did not want to fight for their masters, but rather felt
that by defecting to the Germans they might be fighting for freedom.
That they were being misled, lied to, by Nazi Germany is seen in
hindsight. The Ukrainians who defected into the forests to join UPA fought
against both invaders. They hoped for assistance from the western allies.
But were sadly abandoned.
> > Yevgeniy Chizhikov. >
>
>
L.Gordeev
On Mon, 11 Jan 1999, Urmas Sepp wrote:
> > After all, Mussolini was better
> > than Lenin, and afaik his beautiful daughter recently was re-elected to
> > Italian Parliament ...
> >
>
> Methinks its the granddaughter (she sure does look a little too young to be
> daughter of someone who died in 1945).
Sorry, I swallowed "grand". Alessandra Mussolini is his granddaughter.
L.G
Misha
NOT belong with Ukraine. It was, as you know, annexed from Poland and Romania.
Nana Bukhsianidze wrote:
> Yevgeniy Chizhikov wrote:
> >
> > Irakly M. wrote:
> >
> > > When Russian investigated and attached Siberia and other territories in
> > > Russian army there were many people from Ukraine.
> >
> > Nope. They moved there later. More like in 1700's, when Siberia already had been
> > "won" by army of 300 Cossacks and Russians. There were not much war to even
> > speak of.
> >
>
> >
> This was interesting. I have a question how many kids are in everage in
> Ukranian houshold? I never heard that they have 12 kids at home.
> >
> > > Or they did not battle together with Russian in
> > > 1725,1812,1914,1941,1979? What about the cultural contribution?
> > > According to this logic at least sixth part of Siberia on validity belongs
> > > to Ukraine.
> >
> > Keep dreaming. To be historically fair, Eastern Ukraine, Crimea, South Western
> > Ukraine,. Western Ukraine, lands connected to Ukraine from Poland, Slovakia,
> > Romania, and Russia, had been connected to Ukraine by the Russian guns.
> Wow! Now I discovered what Russians think about Ukraine. Apparently this
> country doesn't exist too. Some time ago I learnt from some Russian
> usnet historian that Georgia never existed, now I hear other terrible
> news! Even Ukraine has no right on existance. Well, I will wait to hear
> who is next.
> I
> > willing to make a deal. We give you, 1/6 of Sibiria, and you give us 90% of
> > Ukraine.
> >
> > > For me there is nothing strange that of Crimea has passed to
> > > Ukraine. It historically is fair. Not all should belong to Russia.
> >
>
> > You missing a fact
> > that 60% of Ukraine was in hands of Turks in 1500's.
>
> Can I give you a question? Who the hell those Turks were? Weren't they
> the savage tribes who destroied Constantinopole in 1455? From where did
> they come? Does the history make them authorized nation on almost more
> then half of Europe? No! Now learn the other history. As Germans don't
> claim their rights on Rome, Turks can not claim their right on Greece,
> Georgia, Bulgaria, Romania, Ukraine and etc. And if they will do so,
> this can be pure violence and nothing more.
> The only reason why this
> > land belongs to Ukraine, is because Russians put it there.
> >
> > > Really does not suffice? Whether
> > > it is not better to live in the peace with the neighbours and don't try to
> > > take away anything ?
> >
> > Look who is talking about 1/6 of Sibiria. If I would be you, I would close my
> > mouth and sit quietly. Ukraine own more land than it historically should.
> Same can be said about Russia. It definitely has more land then it
> should. I understand, that your ansistors faught for those lands, killed
> a lot of people, discriminated a lot of nations, this was definitely
> hard work to do. So you gain the result, nobody would know poor Russia
> if not this hard work. Now you are celebrities, could you stop on this
> please? Why you need for example north Caucasus? Do you really think
> that it belongs to Russia?
> > Instead we here all kinds of Ukrainian nationalists looking for land in Siberia,
> > Caucasus, Belarus, and even Russia.
> >
> > > Keep that to you while belongs.
> > > How you think why so much units against Red Army were formed? Except for
> > > nationalities there was Vlasov's army. This army was largest among served
> > > in the German units. Not a platoon or shelfs. There was a whole army!
> >
> > Perhaps opening a history book would be nice. So called "Army" never exceeded
> > size of few divisions. More importantly each German division had up to 2,000 so
> > called Hiwis, or helpers from "Russian" POWs. They were predominately Ukrainian,
> > Tatar, and so on.
> >
> > > By the way approximately 700000 Georgians participated in the World War II.
> > > Half from them was lost. The population of Georgia then did not exceed 4
> > > millions. Thus Georgia in which territory was not of battle actions in a
> > > percentage parity has lost even more than Russia.
> >
> > Lie. I got statistics right here, only about 50,000 Georgians died in W.W.II.
> What kind of books do you read? That data about Georgian soldiers who
> died in WWII is not the product of imagination of Georgian
> "nationalists". No, it is first of all empirical misfortune, where
> almost every household lost at least one man in that war, and also is
> based on Soviet Statistics, which never loved to show anybody's
> contribution besides Russia's.
> In
> > fact more Jews died in Soviet Army in W.W.II than Georgians, Armenians, Kazahs,
> > and half a dozen of other nationalities combined. 350,000 Georgians dead Red
> > Army is a lie. For information see Krivosheev's "Grif Sekretnosti Snyat" and
> > Gareev's "Pamyati pavshih".
> I see, this must be new historians.
> >
> > > I am sure that
> > > Byelorussians in a percentage parity was lost more too. So it is not
> > > necessary to speak that "documented fact that Russians were disproportional
> > > OVER represented". At least it not fairly.
> >
> > It is a fact. Russians were roughly 50% of the population of USSR. They
> > accounted for 66% of the Red Army solders dead, and they are under represented
> > among POWs, only 48%.
> First of all when there is a war somewhere not for Russia, you can see
> many Russians on different sides. This is quite logical. All your
> :right" data sais nothing but that the choice Soviet Republics had to
> do was tragical. How do you like the fact that the war never touched
> Georgia teritorially and almost every 10-th or 11-th person died
> fighting against Germans? You definiteley don't like this and that's why
> declare that "this number is a lie". How many prosons died in WWII for
> example in Brazil? I don't think much.
> >It is not change the
> > fact that traitors were far more common among Ukrainians, Georgians, and the
> > others than among Russians.
>
Michael Kagalenko
]
] It is evidence that these colonial troops felt that they were pressed
]into service and did not want to fight for their masters, but rather felt
]that by defecting to the Germans they might be fighting for freedom.
]That they were being misled, lied to, by Nazi Germany is seen in
]hindsight. The Ukrainians who defected into the forests to join UPA fought
]against both invaders. They hoped for assistance from the western allies.
]But were sadly abandoned.
Bandera's UPA units participated in the attack on the Soviet Union in
1941 as subordinate to the Wehrmacht. There is the infamous SS division
Nachtigal. (See "Ukrianian Nationalism" by John Armstrong). Ukrainians
were prominent in the system of Nazi death camps, where their ruthless
anti-Semitism had made them notorious.
Amazons
>
> Nana, Ukraine DOES exist and every country has right to exist but Western Ukraine DOES
> NOT belong with Ukraine. It was, as you know, annexed from Poland and Romania.
>
Ha, ha, ha, Western Ukraine is the heart of Ukraine and was always
Ukrainian although
it was under Polish occupation for a few hundred years. Halych and
Volyn were ancient
Rus cities and not only was Lviv built by Ukrainians but so was
Peremyshyl which is
now in Poland. After the Mongol invasion most of Central and Eastern
Ukraine was
quite depopulated and only began to be repopulated again during
Ukraine's Kozak period
of history from WESTERN UKRAINE.
Amazons
>
> Misha wrote:
> >
> > Nana, Ukraine DOES exist and every country has right to exist but Western Ukraine DOES
> > NOT belong with Ukraine. It was, as you know, annexed from Poland and Romania.
> >
> chose write paragraph for my respond. My respond was motivated by the
> history told in the other author's letter and by overall impression.
> History he told was not only about western Ukraine but about entire
> territory of this country. Did you notice the percentages in that
> letter? It seems that Ukranians from somewhere moved into Ukraine. Or
> they used the perfect muslim way of occupation of territories (through
> reproduction).
> Honestly talking the topic seems very interesting for me but I probably
> have to read historians of both nationalities to make neutral
> conclusion. Making of Russian nation and Making of Ukranian nation is
> very interesting thing to think about.
> I gave questions about Kievskaia Rus and the correlations between these
> two nations to Ukranian Historians. Well, overall impression was
> following:
> In my humble oppinion major difference between these two nations is the
> approach to the rest of the World.
That is part of it, but a big part is also that they are culturally and
ethnically very different and descend from different races of people.
The Russians are basically Finno Ugric with some Slavic and Tatar and
Mongol mixture while the Ukrainians are basically Slavic like the Poles
and Czechs and Slovaks, etc..
> Russian nation tends to expand and
> ocuppy new territories, calls the Ukraine Okraina and forgets about Kiev
> moving further to north and having battles with Swedish and Lithwanians,
> building capital in Moscow and after in Petersbourg, whereas Ukranian
> nation tries to preserve the culture and identity where it originated.
> Sometime it seems to me that history is used as a strategical tool for
> ideological infuence. I think that it is better to accept today's
> reality otherwise this kind of the theoretical speculations lead to the
> very gray areas and also to very bad consiquences. History sais
> different things.
>
> Nana
And just for your edification here are some historical excerpts which I
had
previously posted in previous discussions:
Here are some excerpts from Encarta 98:
The new Encarta 98 Encyclopedia although still providing some confusion
and old Russian chauvinistic influence (due primarily to reviewer Kurt
E.
Engelmann's, of the University of Washington, slanted reviewing of the
entry on Russia) in that the entries on Kyivan Rus, are found in both
the
articles in the Ukrainian and the Russian entries on history.
Nevertheless, Kyivan Rus is no longer referred to as "Kievan Russia"
and that is a small step forward.
The articles also present a lot of good information corroborating
that the ethnic roots of the Russian and Ukrainian people are very
different indeed.
Encarta clearly explains the great effect and importance that the Tatars
had on the Russian psyche, culture, morals and society. Encarta states:
"In addition to the havoc it created in Russia, the Mongol invasion was
determinative in later Russian history. Tatar control destroyed the
elements of self-government by representative assembly that had
developed
in some Russian cities, arrested the progress of industry and culture,
and kept Russia more than two centuries behind the countries of western
Europe. Tatar customs, law, and government made their influence felt."
(This is exactly what both Dmytryshyn, see below, and Florinsky stated
as well.)
"In 1246 Alexander succeeded his father as grand prince of Novgorod and
in 1252 was invested by the khan as grand prince of Vladimir and
Suzdal'.
Most of the Russian princes followed Alexander's example, paying tribute
and considering themselves vassals of the Tatar rule."
Encarta continues that the population of Rus and Kyiv primarily moved
WEST and not North at the time of the Mongol invasion of Rus as has been
suggested by some chauvinistic Russian historians:
"The region of Kiev was largely depopulated because of massacres and
because much of the Russian (should of course say either Ukrainian or
Rus) population had fled west to escape the Mongol advance."
And Encarta continues, supporting the historical view that the Russians
are a mix of Slavic and Finno-Ugric peoples, unlike the Ukrainians,
who are a mix of various Slavic tribes as described in the Primary
Chronicle.
"In northern Russia, the inhabitants became the principal group of
Russian Slavs known as the Great Russians, modified principally by
various branches of the Finno-Ugrian population."
Encarta later continues that as the Tatar rule collapsed, the Muscovites
absorbed the Tatar lands and people and incorporated them into their
country.
The history of Eastern Europe and specifically Ukraine is being
corrected
and the lies and disinformation of the chauvinistic Russian historians
is
being slowly erased from the history books and reference materials.
Again to reiterate, No, the Russians and Ukrainians are not brothers,
they are not even distant cousins!
Although not a historian, Cardinal Liubachivsky is the head of the
Ukrainian
Greek Catholic Church, a church which the Russian occupiers of Ukraine
had
claimed no longer existed. Prior to the celebration of the
Christianization of
Ukraine-Rus Cardinal Liubachivsky wrote a brief pamphlet refuting
Moscow's
shameless claim to Kyivan history and to the celebration of the
millenium of
Ukrainian Christianity in Moscow, a city which did not even exist in 988
AD.
Liubachivsky wrote:
"it is incorrect, on the grounds of similarity between the name Rus' and
Russia to assume that the Kyivan Sate (Rus') was the birthplace of
Russia. The Muscovite Principality (later Empire) entered the scene of
East European history only in the 16th century. This young state was
known as Muscovy, and its inhabitants as Muscovites - the real
predecessors of today's Russia. They created the actual basis of the
later Russian state. Racially, the Muscovites (later Russians), unlike
the Rus'men (Ukrainians) are primarily from a Hungarian-Finnish descent
with a strong mixture of Mongol blood.
Moscow developed into a powerful political and military state and raised
pretensions to hegemony in Eastern Europe. For this purpose, it came
forward as the alleged "heir" of the old-Ukrainian Kyivan State, and
accepted, in a changed form, the name Rus', which was still the official
name of Ukraine."
He later continues,
"Throughout the centuries Russia has tried to make the world believe
that Ukrainians are merely the "younger brothers" of the Russians, whose
history and culture are simply a "marginal aspect" of Russian history
and culture, by asserting itself as the "heir" of the Kyivan State and
its Church. But, inspite of what the Russian Orthodox Church and the
Soviet Russian authorities would have us believe, 1988 will see the
Millennium of Christianity in Ukraine, and it is the Ukrainian people
and the Ukrainian Church (with its two denominations - the Ukrainian
Catholic Church and the Ukrainian Autocephalous Orthodox Church), the
true descendants of Kyivan Rus' who will be celebrating this great event
of monumental national and religious significance to which Russia has no
rightful claim."
The historian Florinsky writes on page 151 of his "Russia a History and
an Interpretation",
"Taken as a whole, the cultural achievements of Russia in the second
half of the fifteenth century were humble even when measured by the
standards of time. One must not forget that the unification of the
country under the rule of Moscow took place almost 150 years after
Dante wrote the Divine Comedy. The Mongol domination alone does not
fully account for this unhappy state of affairs, although the generally
disturbed conditions during this period hindered cultural progress. The
chief educational agency was the Church. It was the Church that
introduced literacy, created the early Russian literature, assumed the
task of instructing the nation in the principles of Christianity,
contributed to the advancement of arts and sciences. These commendable
endeavors, unfortunately, were not only conducted on a modest scale, for
which the Church was not alone to be blamed, but they were also
accompanied by policies that could not but hamper cultural progress.
Intransigence and hostility to every manifestation of national genius
the moment it infringed upon the sacrosanct orthodox tradition exercised
their deadening effect in every field of artistic or literary
activity. The mass of the lower clergy and the vast majority of the
leaders of the Church were hardly qualified for the task that confronted
them. The consequence was that five hundred years after its conversion
to Christianity Russia remained illiterate almost to a man and, at
heart, largely pagan. Golubinsky speaks of Russia's "tiny and peculiar
culture (prosviashchenie)" on the eve of the Mongol invasion. In the
next two hundred years the situation was not improved."
On page 127 Florinsky writes,
"Information as to the form that his missionary zeal took is scarce, but
there is little doubt that methods other than those of persuasion were
freely used. The effective preaching of the Christian doctrine was an
impossibility not only because its dogma was beyond the grasp of the
Russian masses but also for the reason that there was no one to explain
the new creed to a bewildered population. All the higher clergy and, in
the early days, some of the lower clergy were Greeks, and their command
of the Russian language, if they knew it at all, was inadequate. The
number of clergy, at the time the Christian religion was introduced, was
far too small. The progress of Christianity was slow. Centuries
passed before it reached the remote corners of the ever expanding
realm, and the process has not been completed to this day. What
Vladimir's missionaries could not achieve by persuasion and eloquence
they succeeded in imposing by force, at least in the most important
centers. The horrified Russians saw the effigies of their pagan gods
pulled down and destroyed. There was much resistance, which sometimes,
as in Novgorod, developed into uprisings against the crusaders. Some
of the people accepted the new faith because they recognized its
superiority, but there were many who merely bowed to the inevitable and
became Christians in name, against their will and convictions. In
Russia, as in so many other countries, the religion of brotherly love
was imposed by fire and sword. The inevitable result was that in the
early centuries Russia's conversion to Christianity was nominal. When
in the eighties of the eleventh century the bishop of Novgorod,
challenged by a pagan magician, asked the people to choose between their
former gods and the religion of Christ, the good citizens of the "free
city' went as one man to the magician's side, and only the prince and
his immediate entourage took the side of the bishop. This revealing
incident occurred in one of Russia's greatest commercial cities almost
one hundred years after its official conversion to Christianity. Old
beliefs and old religious loyalties were still very much alive behind
the official acceptance of a faith the meaning of which only a few
understood and which had been imposed by government fiat."
The Rus may have built churches in Northern Rus, and they may have sent
missionaries,
but they apparently did not change their hearts. So we see that Kyiv
did not have as much
influence on the people of Northern Rus as some Russians would like to
believe.
The Mongols arguably had more.
Dmytryshyn on p. 123 in his book "A History of Russian" says the
following:
"Perhaps the most permanent legacy of Mongol domination was in language,
for the
Russians borrowed thousands of words from the Mongol and Turkic
vocabulary.
Another legacy, one that continued into early 18th century, was the
style of
clothing of the upper classes and the practice of secluding women in the
terem.
From the Mongol practices the Muscovites appropriated many features of
government and justice, including the character of absolute government,
the custom of prostration, servile submission, the liberal use of the
death penalty, and unspeakable forms of torture. The Muscovites also
patterned their armies after the Mongols, and adopted both their system
of universal conscription and their fighting tactics."
Most recently, Prof. John Haywood PhD, has just has his "Atlas of World
History"
published. This is a great book which shows how the various nations and
peoples
migrated during the course of time. It also very clearly shows where
the Slavic
people first originated and how they migrated out into the world. The
Slavs
sometimes displaced other nations, sometimes moved into desolate lands
and
sometimes merged with other nations as did the Russians. In fact the
Russians are
still trying to absorb the non-Russians nations in the Russian
Federation, but some
like the Tatars and Chechens are strongly resisting either demanding
autonomy or
outright independence.
So what we see here, is that although Rus had some influence on the
people of
its northern territories, in that they were introduced to Christianity
and had a Slavic
language imposed on them, the subsequent rule of the northern Rus
territories under
the Mongols had arguably a far greater effect on the cultural
development of the
Muscovite and Russian people. The Russian people not only have a
different
ethnic background than the Ukrainians but their cultural roots are also
very different.
For centuries the Russians have tried to impose on the Ukrainians the
notion that they
were the Ukrainians big brother, but it turns out in fact that if they
were to be brothers,
then the Russians would have to take their place as the little brother,
but indeed history
tells us that they are not brothers at all, they are not even distant
cousins. It was for
this reason that during the soviet Russian occupation of Ukraine
Ukraine's historians
were not published including the "Primary Chronicle" of Kyivan Rus.
When I was in
Ukraine during the occupation I tried very hard to find a copy of the
"Primary Chronicle"
and even had Ukrainian friends try to find it for me, to no avail.
Today in Free Ukraine
it is in print as is Hrushevsky and many other Ukrainian historians.
The point as I have stated before, is that now Ukraine is slowly
regaining its
history, language and culture once so brutally suppressed by the past
occupying
Russian regimes.
Nana Bukhsianidze
>
> Nana, Ukraine DOES exist and every country has right to exist but Western Ukraine DOES
> NOT belong with Ukraine. It was, as you know, annexed from Poland and Romania.
>
chose write paragraph for my respond. My respond was motivated by the
history told in the other author's letter and by overall impression.
History he told was not only about western Ukraine but about entire
territory of this country. Did you notice the percentages in that
letter? It seems that Ukranians from somewhere moved into Ukraine. Or
they used the perfect muslim way of occupation of territories (through
reproduction).
Honestly talking the topic seems very interesting for me but I probably
have to read historians of both nationalities to make neutral
conclusion. Making of Russian nation and Making of Ukranian nation is
very interesting thing to think about.
I gave questions about Kievskaia Rus and the correlations between these
two nations to Ukranian Historians. Well, overall impression was
following:
In my humble oppinion major difference between these two nations is the
ocuppy new territories, calls the Ukraine Okraina and forgets about Kiev
moving further to north and having battles with Swedish and Lithwanians,
building capital in Moscow and after in Petersbourg, whereas Ukranian
nation tries to preserve the culture and identity where it originated.
Sometime it seems to me that history is used as a strategical tool for
ideological infuence. I think that it is better to accept today's
reality otherwise this kind of the theoretical speculations lead to the
very gray areas and also to very bad consiquences. History sais
different things.
Nana
Please remove "NO SPAM" in email address before replying.
Irakly M.
been
>"won" by army of 300 Cossacks and Russians. There were not much war to even
>speak of.
You want to tell what in the period 17 - 20 centuries Siberia have occupied
300 Cossacks and Russians?
>Perhaps it would be nice to look into history books. Fleet was build mainly
by
>Russians workers.
Certainly in the basic fleet built Russian. I agree. But unless among them
was not ukrainians ?
>According to even 1890's statistics >often longer than Ukrainians
themselves. In general, even predominately Russian
>regions of Ukraine had been Ukranized in the last 100 years. Net growth of
>Ukrainians over Russians had been 3.5 millions in the South, 3 millions in
the
>South-West, and 1.5 millions in Donetzk-Kiev region. It means that places
like
>South and Donezk are LESS Russian by percentage from population today than
100
>years ago. So, in fact during Soviet times percentage of Ukrainian
population in
>Ukraine increased, not decrease. See: "Nationality and population change in
>Russia and the USSR: an evoluation of census data, 1897-1970".
Tell me please in what year this book printed and who its author ?
>Keep dreaming. To be historically fair, Eastern Ukraine, Crimea, South
Western
>Ukraine,. Western Ukraine, lands connected to Ukraine from Poland,
Slovakia,
>Romania, and Russia, had been connected to Ukraine by the Russian guns. I
>willing to make a deal. We give you, 1/6 of Sibiria, and you give us 90% of
>Ukraine.
It is strange, why Poland, Romania and Slovakia do not require the grounds
back? Probably they cleverer and want to live in friendship with the
neighbours. Only to Russia all around owe. When you will understand what
the age of empires has passed? So to live it is impossible more.
>Look who is talking about 1/6 of Sibiria. If I would be you, I would close
my
>mouth and sit quietly. Ukraine own more land than it historically should.
>Instead we here all kinds of Ukrainian nationalists looking for land in
Siberia,
>Caucasus, Belarus, and even Russia.
It is not necessary to me of your Siberia. Even 1/1000000 parts. Return to
us our territories. But most important return of the people expelled from
own houses.
>Perhaps opening a history book would be nice. So called "Army" never
exceeded
>size of few divisions. More importantly each German division had up to
2,000 so
>called Hiwis, or helpers from "Russian" POWs. They were predominately
Ukrainian,
>Tatar, and so on.
What this book which you open all time?
>Lie. I got statistics right here, only about 50,000 Georgians died in
W.W.II. In
>fact more Jews died in Soviet Army in W.W.II than Georgians, Armenians,
Kazahs,
>and half a dozen of other nationalities combined. 350,000 Georgians dead
Red
>Army is a lie. For information see Krivosheev's "Grif Sekretnosti Snyat"
and
>Gareev's "Pamyati pavshih".
Thank you very match for that you (or Krivosheev with Gareev ) have
recovered 300000 my compatriots. You are so kindly!
Irakly M.
Irakly M.
>been "won" by army of 300 Cossacks and Russians. There were not much war to
>even speak of.
You want to tell what in the period 17 - 20 centuries Siberia have occupied
300 Cossacks and Russians?
>Perhaps it would be nice to look into history books. Fleet was build mainly
>by Russians workers.
Certainly in the basic fleet built Russian. I agree. But unless among them
was not ukrainians ?
>According to even 1890's statistics >often longer than Ukrainians
>themselves. In general, even predominately Russian regions of Ukraine had
>been >Ukranized in the last 100 years. Net growth of Ukrainians over
>Russians had been 3.5 millions in the South, 3 millions in the South-West,
>and 1.5 millions in Donetzk-Kiev >region. It means that places like South
>and Donezk are LESS Russian by percentage >from population today than 100
>years ago. So, in fact during Soviet times percentage >of Ukrainian
>population in Ukraine increased, not decrease. See: "Nationality and
>population change in Russia and the USSR: an evoluation of census data,
>1897->1970".
Tell me please in what year this book printed and who its author ?
>Keep dreaming. To be historically fair, Eastern Ukraine, Crimea, South
>Western Ukraine,. Western Ukraine, lands connected to Ukraine from Poland,
>Slovakia, Romania, and Russia, had been connected to Ukraine by the Russian
guns. >willing to make a deal. We give you, 1/6 of Sibiria, and you give us
90% of
>Ukraine.
It is strange, why Poland, Romania and Slovakia do not require the grounds
back? Probably they cleverer and want to live in friendship with the
neighbours. Only to Russia all around owe. When you will understand what
the age of empires has passed? So to live it is impossible more.
>Look who is talking about 1/6 of Sibiria. If I would be you, I would close
>my mouth and sit quietly. Ukraine own more land than it historically
should.
>Instead we here all kinds of Ukrainian nationalists looking for land in
>Siberia,Caucasus, Belarus, and even Russia.
It is not necessary to me of your Siberia. Even 1/1000000 parts. Return to
us our territories. But most important return of the people expelled from
own houses.
>Perhaps opening a history book would be nice. So called "Army" never
>exceeded size of few divisions. More importantly each German division had
up to
>2,000 socalled Hiwis, or helpers from "Russian" POWs. They were
predominately
>Ukrainian,Tatar, and so on.
What this book which you open all time?
>Lie. I got statistics right here, only about 50,000 Georgians died in
>W.W.II. In fact more Jews died in Soviet Army in W.W.II than Georgians,
Armenians,
>Kazahs,and half a dozen of other nationalities combined. 350,000 Georgians
dead
>Red Army is a lie. For information see Krivosheev's "Grif Sekretnosti
Snyat"
>and Gareev's "Pamyati pavshih".
Thank you very match for that you (or Krivosheev with Gareev ) have
Dimitry Volshebnik
Nana Bukhsianidze <gr...@nospammeridianworldservices.com> wrote:
> >
> > Well I'm sure people stopped calling you Russian, but what if people still
> > do?!? Do you report to the police as a insult?!? As I understand calling you
> > "Russian" would be even worse than call you "bitch".
> Such a cheap person you are Volshebnik. I feel sorry for you.
> >
Hmmm... can I be cheap person and creature at the same time?? You called me a
creature, so now once again you think that I'm a human...
> > > Honestly talking how many Americans know what is >Georgian Tea?
> >
> > Americans will answer something like "I don't care if they grow tea in
> > Georgia or Florida"
> Don't worry Dimitri, I found Americans much more interesting people then
> Russians who hate and discriminate others for their accent, for their
> skin color and for their nationality.
Wow... since when do the Russians discriminate against people of color??!
Well I have to admit that you are not European looking lady but you are not
black.
> > > I
> > > discovered that apparently it is "Russian Tea"!
> > You should try it sometime, don't forget to mix with vodka :)
> See now I discovered the recipe! Apparently Russian tea is any tea with
> vodka.
Sure... Did you noticed that Russians and Georgians drink together when they
are not blaming each other. I used to love to chat with Georgians they could
teach you how to rip off people. I'm not saying that all Georgians bad but
bad ones tend to move to Russia, true or not!?!? Or 99% of Russians wrong?
>
> >
> > Please Nana tell to the world!!!!
> :-)
> Caught me on the word, Russian?
> You don't hear my accent, that's why you still have a bit of humor.
> Otherwise you would sound histerical.:-)
Come on... Nana... people in Russia would pay $$$ on a adult-phoneline to
hear you speak. I don't know why but Russians love when somebody speaks in
Russian with accent.
>
> Nana
>
> > FREEDOM FOR CRIMEA from Ukrainian occupation!
> > http://www.angelfire.com/ak2/freedomcrimea
> >
> > -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
> > http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
>
> --
>
> Please remove "NO SPAM" in email address before replying.
>
--
FREEDOM FOR CRIMEA from Ukrainian occupation!
http://www.angelfire.com/ak2/freedomcrimea
Yevgeniy Chizhikov
Nana Bukhsianidze wrote:
> This was interesting. I have a question how many kids are in everage in
> Ukranian houshold? I never heard that they have 12 kids at home.
I did not said that. See the book, it shows that "Russian" areas of Ukraine, had been
increasingly "Ukrainized" during the last 100 years. It is even true for famine
years.
> Apparently this
> country doesn't exist too. Some time ago I learnt from some Russian
> usnet historian that Georgia never existed, now I hear other terrible
> news! Even Ukraine has no right on existance. Well, I will wait to hear
> who is next.
Well, we all in the same boat. Some Ukrainians claim that Russia never existed.
> Can I give you a question? Who the hell those Turks were?
They were actually not Turks from Turkey. The "turks" which lived in Ukraine were
people which always lived there, Pechenegs, Polovtsi, and so on, mixed with Mongols.
Those people had been living in this area at least as long as Slavs. What happened,
that in 14-15 century many of the people received Muslim faith from Turkey. After that
they allied themselves with Turkey.
> Weren't they
> the savage tribes who destroied Constantinopole in 1453?
Quite racist remark I should say. They were rather powerful, educated, and I can say
that they were for the most part even more civilized than Europeans. Things like
bathing, shots from diseases, surviving libraries of Greece, Rom, and Konstantinopol,
had come to Europe from Turks. Turks only began to fall behind with the Industrial
Revolution in the West. Before that, they were legitimate European player.
> As Germans don't
> claim their rights on Rome, Turks can not claim their right on Greece,
> Georgia, Bulgaria, Romania, Ukraine and etc. And if they will do so,
> this can be pure violence and nothing more.
Well, it is rather typical history. Turks are not alone. I believe Georgians,
Russians, Germans, you name it, riding in the same boat of guilt.
> Same can be said about Russia. It definitely has more land then it
> should.
Well, take it if you dear. How you can decide who have too much land, the same point
can be made about Georgia.
> I understand, that your ansistors faught for those lands, killed
> a lot of people, discriminated a lot of nations, this was definitely
> hard work to do.
Well, I recommend Gumilev, who is Tatar as I recall. He makes quite excellent case
that among the Empires, the Russians treated the natives the nicest. In fact, Russians
treated everybody really nice. There is no country in Europe where foreigners had been
as easily excepted as in Moscow. It is just a fact. Tatars, Mongols, Georgians, Poles,
French, Dutch, Germans, you name it was all excepted and absorbed by Russians. If you
don't believe this is the case, explain great number of non-Russians in Russian
government today. I believe that Russians are even more diverse than Americans.
Russians not only a mixture of ethnic groups, but also races.
> So you gain the result, nobody would know poor Russia
> if not this hard work. Now you are celebrities, could you stop on this
> please? Why you need for example north Caucasus? Do you really think
> that it belongs to Russia?
Think about every excuse about Georgia keeping Osetia, Abhaziya, and so on, and I can
match every your excuse with my own. Truth is that Russians princes ruled the North
Caucasus from the day of Kievan Rus, is that good enough?
> What kind of books do you read? That data about Georgian soldiers who
> died in WWII is not the product of imagination of Georgian
> "nationalists". No, it is first of all empirical misfortune, where
> almost every household lost at least one man in that war, and also is
> based on Soviet Statistics, which never loved to show anybody's
> contribution besides Russia's.
I have "Grif Sekretnosti Snyat", and "Pamyati Pavshih". It is clearly show how many
Georgian solders died in W.W.II fighting in Red Army. Perhaps your number including
Georgians fighting in German Ost troops. Fact is that more Jewish solders died in Red
Army than Georgians, Armenians, and Azerbajainians combine. See the book for yourself.
What you display is typical revisionism of history for nationalistically motivated
reasons. We already had Ukrainians there who tried to prove that Ukrainians were
majority in the Red Army, so it they who won the W.W.II. However, they had enough
brains to disapere after facts had been displayed.
> First of all when there is a war somewhere not for Russia, you can see
> many Russians on different sides. This is quite logical. All your
> :right" data sais nothing but that the choice Soviet Republics had to
> do was tragical. How do you like the fact that the war never touched
> Georgia teritorially and almost every 10-th or 11-th person died
> fighting against Germans?
You should check your numbers.
Yevgeniy Chizhikov.
Yevgeniy Chizhikov
Nana Bukhsianidze wrote:
> Russian nation tends to expand and
> ocuppy new territories, calls the Ukraine Okraina and forgets about Kiev
> moving further to north and having battles with Swedish and Lithwanians,
> building capital in Moscow and after in Petersbourg, whereas Ukranian
> nation tries to preserve the culture and identity where it originated.
It is bunch of SPAM. "Okraina" is unofficial name for "Malorossiya". "Okraina" was used as
slang among regular folks, while "Malorossiya" was used in official documents. Something
happened in 18 century, when "Ukraine" become the official name. Second, Ukrainian nation
did not stay and preserve it's identity where it originated. Russians, Ukrainians, and
Belorussians are roughly equally old. They all coming from the Kievan Rus. However, because
of the Mongol invasions, people got split and it lead to creation of the three different
nations. Second, Ukrainians did not stayed there and try to preserve identity. Ukrainians
"preserved" much less than Russians did, because the all books, stories, and even language
had moved from Kiev to Vladimir and latter to Moscow. According to Gumilev, Ukrainians
originated by mixing of the old Kievan Rus people and Poles on the territory of the Belarus
in the 14-15 century. They latter moved South, during Lithuanian advance South. Belorussians
are mixture of Kieavn Rus people and Lithuanians. While Russians are mixture of Kieavn Rus
people and Finno-Ugric people. Russians, however retained more of original Kievan Rus
culture than Ukrainians or Belorussians. It happened mainly because of migration of Kiean
Rus nobility into Moscow area, as well as Russian Orthodox church with all it's books, icon
painters, church builders, and so on. It is become even more obvious if you go farther,
Ukrainian culture did not rationed ANY old myths and stories of the Kievan Rus. Usual
explanation of Ukrainian nationalists, that Russians stole all that from Ukraine. They do
not seams to care that it sounds dumb. I think you need a bit of reading to do.
Yevgeniy Chizhikov.
Nana Bukhsianidze
> > Can I give you a question? Who the hell those Turks were?
>
> They were actually not Turks from Turkey.
Turkey.
The "turks" which lived in Ukraine were
> people which always lived there, Pechenegs, Polovtsi, and so on, mixed with Mongols.
> Those people had been living in this area at least as long as Slavs. What happened,
> that in 14-15 century many of the people received Muslim faith from Turkey. After that
> they allied themselves with Turkey.
>
> > Weren't they
> > the savage tribes who destroied Constantinopole in 1453?
>
> Quite racist remark I should say. They were rather powerful, educated, and I can say
> that they were for the most part even more civilized than Europeans. Things like
> bathing, shots from diseases, surviving libraries of Greece, Rom, and Konstantinopol,
> had come to Europe from Turks. Turks only began to fall behind with the Industrial
> Revolution in the West. Before that, they were legitimate European player.
in Greece and Georgia and Italy? Just a question...
> Well, take it if you dear.
This is way far from civilized respond. Now you sound like an officer
from Russian army.
> How you can decide who have too much land, the same point
> can be made about Georgia.
>
> > I understand, that your ansistors faught for those lands, killed
> > a lot of people, discriminated a lot of nations, this was definitely
> > hard work to do.
>
Do you really think
> > that it belongs to Russia?
>
> Think about every excuse about Georgia keeping Osetia, Abhaziya, and so on, and I can
> match every your excuse with my own.
See this is a gray area too. Osetians according to History and actually
very recent history moved to Georgia in 17-18-19 centuries. So, Osetia
(in Georgia and not generally) is a relatively new formation. The region
always was reffered as Samachablo throughout of Hisotry. Osetia itself
in Georgian history records always was reffered as north Caucasian
formation. The process of Migration of Osetian population from their own
land (now in Russia) continued in 20-th century and took a bigger scale
then before ( You know why. we were building the new country of a new
soviet nation. Which actually in abroad was propagated as "Russian
nation").
That's why I think that looking only in History books leads to bad
results. We can not return the time back. As you know previous
governement tried to do so and failed.
About Abkhazia, picture becomes even more confusing. The fact is that
Georgians always lived on that territory even during the times of Greek
formations like Dioskuria ( Now Sokhumi in Georgian or Aqua in
Abkhazian). And they were very important part of population. Herodot
doesn't say the percentage but impression he has is that there
dominating part of populus were Svans who are Georgians. The territory
was most of the time part of Georgian state formations. Adigei
population for some reason became aggrasive to Georgians only in 17-18
centuries, when massive migrations from the north took place. Exactly
when Osetians started to move to Georgia.
Those migrations actually were related to the expansion of Russian
Empire to the south and weakening of Georgian states. ( Georgia was
devided in two parts and had a lot of internal problems).
Osetians don't claim that they are the only people who has rights on
their territory in Georgia, but Abkhazians listened to their Historians
( I listened too and couldn't believe to my ears) and ... As you see
this led to the war and terrible war atrocities. If Abkhazia was
entirely abkhazian land the war wouldn't yield 200 000 Georgian refugees
and around 20 000 Georgian victims. (5000 were soldiers reast are
civilians).
Did you ever thought why the post soviet world suffers from the fanatic
wars between nationalities? The supression of national identity during
comunists caused hidden agression and now it has twisted form and yields
attrocities. It's dangerous to go against nature ( seems history is a
part of biology too).
Nana
Nana Bukhsianidze
Union and of course have read the history manuals prepered for soviet
population. I should admit picture presented there was very obscure.
Well. There was possible to make only one conclusion: the major
difference between these two nations is a mentality, which eventually
caused even ethnical difference ( through assimilation with different
nations). Now I can see this picture differently. New lines are drown in
these sources.
Amazons wrote:
>
> Nana Bukhsianidze wrote:
> >
--
Nana Bukhsianidze
> > Don't worry Dimitri, I found Americans much more interesting people then
> > Russians who hate and discriminate others for their accent, for their
> > skin color and for their nationality.
>
> Wow... since when do the Russians discriminate against people of color??!
> Well I have to admit that you are not European looking lady but you are not
> black.
How can you explain the expressions like "chernij chert" and
"cherno..."?
Also, Georgians don't look less European then Italians, Spanish and
half of the France. European doesn't mean blue eyed, blond man singing
in scotish manner. :-) As for word Caucasian it exactly means Georgian
looking human being. BY the way can you admit in Russia that you are
Caucasian? :-) Half of the Russia will have psycological problems with
being called Caucasian.
Nana
Yevgeniy Chizhikov
Nana Bukhsianidze wrote:
> New lines are drown in
> these sources.
Don't get confused, Florinsky, Hrushevsky and his crowd have own agendas, those
guys had been writing their delusions for years. They are not considered very
serious ANYWHERE, including in US. However, they found a lot of admires among
Ukrainian diaspora and Ukrainian nationalist.
Yevgeniy Chizhikov.
Volodimir Jakhimets
> Nana Bukhsianidze wrote:
>
> > Russian nation tends to expand and
> > ocuppy new territories, calls the Ukraine Okraina and forgets about Kiev
> > moving further to north and having battles with Swedish and Lithwanians,
> > building capital in Moscow and after in Petersbourg, whereas Ukranian
> > nation tries to preserve the culture and identity where it originated.
>
> It is bunch of SPAM. "Okraina" is unofficial name for "Malorossiya". "Okraina" was used as
> slang among regular folks, while "Malorossiya" was used in official documents. Something
> happened in 18 century, when "Ukraine" become the official name. Second, Ukrainian nation
> did not stay and preserve it's identity where it originated. Russians, Ukrainians, and
> Belorussians are roughly equally old. They all coming from the Kievan Rus. However, because
> of the Mongol invasions, people got split and it lead to creation of the three different
> nations. Second, Ukrainians did not stayed there and try to preserve identity. Ukrainians
> "preserved" much less than Russians did, because the all books, stories, and even language
> had moved from Kiev to Vladimir and latter to Moscow. According to Gumilev, Ukrainians
> originated by mixing of the old Kievan Rus people and Poles on the territory of the Belarus
> in the 14-15 century. They latter moved South, during Lithuanian advance South. Belorussians
> are mixture of Kieavn Rus people and Lithuanians. While Russians are mixture of Kieavn Rus
> people and Finno-Ugric people. Russians, however retained more of original Kievan Rus
> culture than Ukrainians or Belorussians. It happened mainly because of migration of Kiean
> Rus nobility into Moscow area, as well as Russian Orthodox church with all it's books, icon
> painters, church builders, and so on. It is become even more obvious if you go farther,
> Ukrainian culture did not rationed ANY old myths and stories of the Kievan Rus. Usual
> explanation of Ukrainian nationalists, that Russians stole all that from Ukraine. They do
> not seams to care that it sounds dumb. I think you need a bit of reading to do.
>
> Yevgeniy Chizhikov.
Чижик, спой, птичка.
Ой, как плохо поеш, ой, как плохо.
Misha
Dimitry Volshebnik
Nana Bukhsianidze <gr...@nospammeridianworldservices.com> wrote:
> Dimitry Volshebnik wrote:
>
> > > Don't worry Dimitri, I found Americans much more interesting people then
> > > Russians who hate and discriminate others for their accent, for their
> > > skin color and for their nationality.
> >
> > Wow... since when do the Russians discriminate against people of color??!
> > Well I have to admit that you are not European looking lady but you are not
> > black.
> How can you explain the expressions like "chernij chert" and
> "cherno..."?
Well its Russian little nick names that we have for you guys :) Sometimes we
get pissed off watching you making money in Russia.
> Also, Georgians don't look less European then Italians, Spanish and
> half of the France. European doesn't mean blue eyed, blond man singing
> in scotish manner. :-) As for word Caucasian it exactly means Georgian
> looking human being. BY the way can you admit in Russia that you are
> Caucasian? :-) Half of the Russia will have psycological problems with
> being called Caucasian.
Hmmm... I guess leader of Iraq is also European looking. :)
Iraq ia not that far from Georgia.
>
> Nana
>
> Please remove "NO SPAM" in email address before replying.
>
--
Chu...@aol.com
>> Russian nation tends to expand and
>> ocuppy new territories, calls the Ukraine Okraina and forgets about Kiev
>> moving further to north and having battles with Swedish and Lithwanians,
>> building capital in Moscow and after in Petersbourg, whereas Ukranian
>> nation tries to preserve the culture and identity where it originated.
>It is bunch of SPAM. "Okraina" is unofficial name for "Malorossiya".
SPAM is your middle name.
FACT: Peter the Great drafted 20,000 Ukrainian Kozaks under the false order
of protecting Russian northern borders. Instead, they were ordered to do
ground-braking, excavation, and construction work for the new Russian
capital. Majority died of exposure and various diseases.
Who, may I ask, have used such a name - "okraina"? Ukrainians certainly could
not, for "Okraina", as your pseudo-historian is trying to pretend, in it's
meaning of "an outskirt" is "okolycia" in Ukrainian, while conveniently
ignoring the fact that the name Russia was assigned to Muskovy by Peter the
Great.
What I would really like to know is where did the name "Muskovy" come from?
As in "Muskovy duck"..;-))
>"Okraina" was used as slang among regular folks, while "Malorossiya" was used in official documents.
How would you know? You don't speak Ukrainian. Heck, you can hardly speak
Russian!;-))
>Something happened in 18 century, when "Ukraine" become the official name.
>Second, Ukrainian nation did not stay and preserve it's identity where it originated.
>Russians, Ukrainians, and Belorussians are roughly equally old. They all coming from the Kievan Rus.
Marvelous, just marvelous how you dance around the issue and can't do
anything about it.
>However, because of the Mongol invasions, people got split and it lead to creation of the three different
>nations. Second, Ukrainians did not stayed there and try to preserve identity.
Why? You just said it was possible to escape Mongols by hiding in the thick
forests of Polissia. FYI: Polissia is not only in Belarus. In Belarus' they
call it just that - "Belarus' Polesie" or "Forested Land". Chelm and
Prszemyszl region of Poland, Ukrainian Volyn', Rivne, Zhytomyr regions are
all Polissia. That is where all Slavs most likely originated, including
Poles, Slovacs an so on.
Thus, you backward supposition you stole from Gumilev to begin with about
Ukrainians emerging as a result of Polish - Russian frontiers, does not hold
any validity, since Ukrainians and Poles are essentially same people.
****BTW, When speaking about Polish people, the correct noun in **a Pole**,
not *Polak*, as you wrote in your previous post. *Polak* is a derogatory and
insulting term. You should've known better living in Cleveland!! However, as
I mentioned before, not with your extremely low learning ability, you
couldn't.
On the other hand, bigotry is bigotry, no matter against who it is directed.
Strike one was you using anti-Semitic slang, anti-Polish is a strike two. And
you were concerned about being viewed as a Nazi? Well, don't concern
yourself, your posts will tell on you.****
>Ukrainians "preserved" much less than Russians did, because the all books, stories, and even language
>had moved from Kiev to Vladimir and latter to Moscow.
Languages don't move. People who speak them do.
It is known fact that the Old Church Slavonic, on which Russian is based, is
an artificially created language. Don't try to peddle that idea, it's all but
dead.
Ever heard of Andrei Bogolubski and his plunder of Kyiv?
FYI: The most revered *Russian* icons of the "Virgin Mary of Kazan" and the
"Virgin Mary of Vladimir" are the "Virgin Mary of Vyshhorod", used to kept in
Mezhygiria Monastery, and the "Virgin Mary of Kiev", respectively.
>According to Gumilev, Ukrainians originated by mixing of the old Kievan Rus people and Poles on the >territory of the Belarus in the 14-15 century.
False. Galicia is not in Belarus, neither is Southern Volhynia.
>They latter moved South, during Lithuanian advance
This is a single correct statement so far. Nevertheless, it is not yours or
Gumilev's. I introduced this notion by citing O.Halecki "History of Poland"
in my rebuttals of your erroneous assertions in my posting "Ukrainian Kozaks"
a year ago.
Can you produce a single original thought, as oppose to a set of some
randomly taken and misinterpreted quotations?
>South. Belorussians are mixture of Kieavn Rus people and Lithuanians. While Russians are mixture
of Kieavn Rus people and Finno-Ugric people.
Oh, that's fresh!;-)) That's what Amazon was saying all alone.
>Russians, however retained more of original Kievan Rus culture than Ukrainians or Belorussians.
If you call plunder of someone else's cultural heritage a "retaining more of
original Kievan Rus culture", then yes, they certainly did.
>It happened mainly because of migration of Kiean Rus nobility into Moscow area, as well as Russian >Orthodox church with all it's books, icon painters, church builders, and so on.
Tell me how the Library of Yaroslav the Wise, that reportedly contained the
original maniscripts of Plato, carefully preserved in the same Mezhyhiria
Monastery throughout centuries, wars, invasions and such, somehow
mysteriously disappeared and was last seen in some Kremlin dungeon, huh?
This is the kind of looting you describe here as "retaining of original
culture".
Just tell me who built the Cathedral of St. Michael the Protector of All
Servicemen, or St. Nicholas the Kind, of XVIth C in Kiev?
And where did Ivan Fedorov print his books? Wasn't it L'viv?
>It is become even more obvious if you go farther, Ukrainian culture did not rationed ANY old
>myths and stories of the Kievan Rus. Usual explanation of Ukrainian nationalists, that Russians stole all >that from Ukraine. They do not seams to care that it sounds dumb. I think you need a bit of reading to do.
What is obvious so far is your annoying habit of pulling out some
unsubstantiated information without reviewing any other available sourses and
presenting it as a Divine Truth, with the purpose of starting a flame. Your
outlandish claims and so-called authors were refuted numerous times here and
in other NGs. No matter how many times you parrot those claims, it will not
add any credibility to you.
On the contrary, I see a different trend in your otherwise simplistic posts.
No more hysterics about Ukrainian Nazis, whoever they are, no more
schizophrenic lamenting about a millennium old Russia, no more inane
recommendations to opponents to go see a doctor. I even dare to suppose you
finally inferred the difference between OUN and UPA. Keep it up, bro!;-)))
Oleksa
>Yevgeniy Chizhikov.
Nana Bukhsianidze
>
> In article <369BD9...@nospammeridianworldservices.com>,
> Nana Bukhsianidze <gr...@nospammeridianworldservices.com> wrote:
> > Dimitry Volshebnik wrote:
> >
> > > > Don't worry Dimitri, I found Americans much more interesting people then
> > > > Russians who hate and discriminate others for their accent, for their
> > > > skin color and for their nationality.
> > >
> > > Wow... since when do the Russians discriminate against people of color??!
> > > Well I have to admit that you are not European looking lady but you are not
> > > black.
> > How can you explain the expressions like "chernij chert" and
> > "cherno..."?
>
> Well its Russian little nick names that we have for you guys :) Sometimes we
> get pissed off watching you making money in Russia.
>
> > Also, Georgians don't look less European then Italians, Spanish and
> > half of the France. European doesn't mean blue eyed, blond man singing
> > in scotish manner. :-) As for word Caucasian it exactly means Georgian
> > looking human being. BY the way can you admit in Russia that you are
> > Caucasian? :-) Half of the Russia will have psycological problems with
> > being called Caucasian.
>
> Hmmm... I guess leader of Iraq is also European looking. :)
>
soo European that you probably decided that they were tourists flooding
the country. Am I right?
Also every Iugoslavian was taken as Georgian in MGU. Are those guys not
European looking? This type of European is called Mediteranian type.
This term is quite famous among antropologist.
Also, as I noticed Persians ( or Iranians or Arians???) do look very
close to Europeans. Didn't you see world cup? You could make good
comparision between USA teem and Iranian Teem. I caught myslef on being
prejudist when thinking that all of them have to look as Arabians...
Nope, that's a difference race.
Asian? Or French? Do they look Asian? Aren't they prominant European
nations? The term European looking is not one dimentional. Also, many
Georgians notice the "compliments" from Russians: "you don't look
Georgian at all". :-) Now I know what it means: "you don't look as a
relative of Saddam."
Anyways, I think that Mediteranian type of Human Being is the most
beutiful one. Do you remember Hakarar Meltem? Cherkez beuty from
Turkey? This is what in reality "Caucasian" means.
If "Europeans" don't like this they can change their title. But looking
at Georgians they won't give up this title ever.
Nana
>
> >
> > Nana
> >
> > Please remove "NO SPAM" in email address before replying.
> >
>
> --
> FREEDOM FOR CRIMEA from Ukrainian occupation!
> http://www.angelfire.com/ak2/freedomcrimea
>
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